#emc | Logs for 2012-01-08

[00:00:35] <andypugh> pcw_home: Ah, so, is it possible to be starting one channel while sending so-its on another?
[00:00:42] <andypugh> (do-its, I mean)
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[00:07:31] <pcw_home> clytle374 I think thats only with your kernel (or we would have heard about it probably a few hundred of our customers are using 2.5))
[00:07:54] <clytle374> Are they all on the live disk?
[00:08:10] <pcw_home> Yes
[00:08:18] <clytle374> How many broken kernel/rtia combos can I find in a row?
[00:08:35] <clytle374> that happen to work on 2.4
[00:08:35] <skunkKandT> ooh - quite a few?
[00:08:41] <pcw_home> well 2^ binary options at least
[00:08:49] <skunkKandT> oh wait - was that rhetorical?
[00:09:35] <skunkKandT> ;)
[00:10:04] <pcw_home> Andy I think its possible but really too ugly to use to make the 8I20 easier to use, we shoudl really be more accepting of those kind of startup faults
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[00:11:57] <andypugh> Well, starting up the PC with the HV off probably isn't even really a fault. I expect most people will do exactly that, then have contactors and "power good" signals eyc.
[00:12:35] <andypugh> Short term, it probably makes sense to allow EMC2 to start with an unpowere 8i20, don't you think?
[00:13:02] <pcw_home> right but I think thats better fixed in the 8I20 firmware
[00:13:25] <andypugh> Yes, but how many 8i20s are out there with the current firmware?
[00:14:23] <pcw_home> they are updateable (or people have worked around the startup issue it no big deal if you only have 8I20s on sserial)
[00:14:29] <andypugh> What I propose is a small change so that the error is reported, but EMC2 still starts up.
[00:15:20] <andypugh> The svss8_44 bitfile also offers a solution, 8i20s on one port and IO on the other.
[00:16:45] <pcw_home> Yeah that an interim solution, just stop the 8I20s sserial unit and restart
[00:16:47] <pcw_home> But as I said we fully intend to change the firmware and demote LF fault to LV status
[00:18:01] <andypugh> OK. That's good in another way, it means that it might still be possible to make the 8i20 pretend to be a paramter-discovery board. I am almost certainly going to move 7i64 that way.
[00:19:20] <pcw_home> the 8i20 will be come a "discoverable" card eventually, we need this to support modes (so a voltage + current limit mode is available for induction motors)
[00:20:36] <andypugh> When that happens, I will make the driver clone that config for the old-school one.
[00:20:51] <andypugh> Or would that be a firmware update to existing cards?
[00:21:01] <pcw_home> it will be
[00:21:27] <andypugh> OK, when that happens I will get the driver to say "Oi! Get an update! then.
[00:21:42] <pcw_home> 7I64 as well if we have enough ROM space
[00:22:02] <pcw_home> but 7I64 alas is not field upgradeable
[00:22:42] <pcw_home> at least the ones in the field...
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[00:24:29] <pcw_home> Note to self: do not put "one-per-day because its winter" egg from nestbox in coat pocket and forget it
[00:26:08] <clytle374> yep
[00:26:30] <clytle374> did it pop?
[00:26:35] <andypugh> Real egg?
[00:27:36] <mshaver> pcw_home and andypugh: An e-mail with Q mode results awaits your perusal.
[00:27:48] <pcw_home> must have reached in my pocket this morning walking the dog and felt wet and crunchy at the same time
[00:27:49] <clytle374> that's the kind you only get one per day because it's winter
[00:28:47] <mshaver> You could have reached into your pocket and pulled out a chick if the coat closet was warm enough :)
[00:28:52] <pcw_home> I think our dog broke it jumping up on me
[00:29:17] <pcw_home> well luckily this was only from last night so it was a mess but a fresh mess
[00:30:38] <Nick001-Shop> More questions - Touch off - as I understand it,G54 etc is more for milling machines with multiple pats on the table and the tool table is for the Z axis and for lathes. In lathe mode one calls M6 T2 G43 H2 and fot the next tool
[00:31:22] <Nick001-Shop> M6 T2 G43 H3 and so on. Do I have it right?
[00:31:50] <jthornton> I just use T1 M6 G43
[00:31:54] <andypugh> No, not really :-)
[00:32:31] <Nick001-Shop> I really need to learn to type accurately
[00:33:07] <Nick001-Shop> No H at all?
[00:33:40] <jthornton> not me
[00:34:05] <andypugh> touch-off into G54 on a lathe is useful for setting X position if your homing isn't perfect, and then touching off other tools into the tool table can set that up nicely. In theory you could use G55 etc for different chucks and jaw steps...
[00:34:21] <mshaver> H specifies the tool number from which to load offsets. Omitting the H uses the current loaded tool number.
[00:34:29] <andypugh> if you omit H it uses the currently loaded tool.
[00:35:01] <jthornton> which is why I use T1 M6 G43 to apply the offsets of the tool just loaded
[00:35:32] <mshaver> An example would be a lathe tool turret with multiple tools per position. The T number would specify the turret position and there would be a separate tool table entry for the different tools in each position.
[00:36:20] <Nick001-Shop> what happens when you go to the next tool - dont you need the h also?
[00:36:22] <jthornton> yep, in that case where you have ganged tools on the same position it is very useful
[00:37:27] <jthornton> not if you have one tool per position and you use the format T1 M6 G43
[00:38:03] <Nick001-Shop> I'll have to try it - I've been including the H
[00:38:19] <mshaver> H is only used if you want to apply offsets from a tool table record different from the number of your currently loaded tool. This is probably a fairly rare occurance, but jt's reference to gang tooling is one of those.
[00:38:38] <jthornton> that is only useful if you have say a front and back tool on the same position
[00:38:58] <mshaver> I also was an "always put in the H" guy too, but have reformed :)
[00:39:06] <jthornton> I think Rob_H has a video of that
[00:39:08] <Nick001-Shop> have a hardinge
[00:39:17] <jthornton> I have a CHNC
[00:39:31] <mshaver> 8 position turret like an HNC?
[00:39:36] <jthornton> yea
[00:39:45] <jthornton> same turret iirc
[00:40:01] <mshaver> So there's your gang tooling example!
[00:40:09] <Nick001-Shop> HCNC - AB control 8 pos turret
[00:40:18] <jthornton> http://gnipsel.com/shop/hardinge/hardinge.xhtml
[00:41:01] <Nick001-Shop> jthornton - why did you need 2.5 for ladder control?
[00:41:19] <jthornton> to have the abort from a tool change
[00:41:32] <mshaver> On a mill this would be really rare. I can't think of an example ATM.
[00:41:51] <jthornton> I actually think my air line oiler is doa and when you first change a tool it does not function well
[00:42:34] <jthornton> so this led me to have a recovery from a failed tool change
[00:42:50] <mshaver> Does the dog catch at the wrong position?
[00:42:57] <Nick001-Shop> which position does the abort? so Can I use the rest in 2.4.6?
[00:43:32] <jthornton> I'm not sure why it misses the tool the first time
[00:44:01] <jthornton> part of the ladder has a timeout and aborts the tool change if too much time passes
[00:44:56] <jthornton> it worked well after a rebuild with new rings and lube so I suspect the air line oiler now... new one next week
[00:44:58] <Nick001-Shop> I've had a wrong tool and the prog continued on so I need something more reliable
[00:45:16] <jthornton> ouch
[00:45:24] <jthornton> bbl
[00:45:48] <mshaver> You do get that 4 bit code for tool position.
[00:46:06] <Nick001-Shop> The prog I'm using now has no tool check and no turret down switch capability
[00:46:24] <mshaver> Ah! Sense this now makes.
[00:46:38] <Nick001-Shop> Yes but no check and fail if wrong
[00:47:26] <mshaver> OK, enough Yoda. Sorry I started that :)
[00:47:39] <mshaver> You running EMC now on it?
[00:47:47] <Nick001-Shop> The wsum is correct for the tool in position but it's not the tool I called but away it goes - really fast on the button
[00:47:58] <Nick001-Shop> Yes
[00:48:38] <mshaver> I have an HNC in the basement that I've been going to retrofit for some time now (like 10 years).
[00:48:47] <skunkKandT> Nick001-Shop: this is you then.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEQORr2KyvE
[00:49:38] <Nick001-Shop> yes- brush and all first part off it
[00:50:23] <mshaver> That's exactly the machine I have (actually it belongs to a long suffering customer of mine).
[00:50:59] <Nick001-Shop> I have 3 of them with only 1 AB control working
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[00:51:42] <mshaver> A somewhat similar tool post control program in classicladder is in the Smithy sample configs. It's called 924.clp.
[00:52:13] <skunkKandT> my tool changer has been working awesomely...
[00:52:16] <skunkKandT> :)
[00:52:48] <mshaver> This is one I did for Smithy's lathes which all (so far) use Chinese tool posts which have the same interface.
[00:53:18] <skunkKandT> Nick001-Shop: I am sure you will get it staitened out - It to me a bit to get the logic / hardware hydraulics figured out.
[00:53:35] <mshaver> It does show how to match the requested tool number with the tool post position sensor output so as to know where to stop rotating.
[00:54:22] <rob_h> nice to see a new chnc join line in emc.. realy must get mine finished
[00:54:37] <Nick001-Shop> Be back in 45 min - Dinner bell rang -) hopefully this will be on the home comp
[00:54:39] <mshaver> skunkKandT: Are your configs in git? We need an emc2/configs/skunk directory!
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[00:55:36] <skunkKandT> heh - I really don't think it would apply to anyone else.... ;)
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[00:56:06] <skunkKandT> 2 mesa 5i20 cards + 7i33 and 7i48
[00:56:08] <mshaver> Neither do the Smithy ones, but I put them there as examples. You should too!
[00:56:17] <skunkKandT> * old school. ;)
[00:56:28] <andypugh> mshaver: If it's consistently asymmetric then a value in encoder-offset will equalise it up.
[00:56:47] <skunkKandT> Sure - I have no problem with it...
[00:57:01] <mshaver> andypugh: That makes sense.
[00:57:21] <mshaver> and it is consistent.
[00:57:29] <skunkKandT> mshaver: I am now doing spindle growth temp compensation..
[00:58:11] <skunkKandT> mshaver: http://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/testing/Screenshot-HEADCIR.25mill.ngc%20-%20AXIS%202.5.0~pre%20on%20HM2-Servo-1.png
[00:58:35] <mshaver> See that's the kind of thing that's educational. I'm about to try rigid tapping for the first time and hoping to crib from the Mazak configs.
[00:59:34] <skunkKandT> heh - I just tapped about 80 holes today.. (rigidly...) I love emc
[01:00:03] <FinboySlick> skunkKandT: The more you say that, the more naughty it sounds.
[01:00:09] <skunkKandT> heh
[01:00:56] <mshaver> Another good thing that folks could get is the temp sensor interface config.
[01:01:38] <skunkKandT> I am using the work that jepler did with the arduino for an analog interface into emc.. (doesn't have to be realtimey)
[01:01:50] <mshaver> In configs/smithy for example, there is a 622keyence config that shows a digital micrometer interfaced to EMC.
[01:03:10] <skunkKandT> neat
[01:03:16] <skunkKandT> what is that used for?
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[01:04:57] * crib from it!
[01:07:25] <mshaver> Champion Spark Plug has one of our machines that cuts the electrode mounting pads on a big spark plug to set the gap. Each one is different due to mfg tolerances, so it's measured and an offset is applied for each part. The micrometer is air powered and it all happens automatically.
[01:07:58] <mshaver> I was trying to find the video of it, but no luck. Monday I'll ask my boss Michelle where it is.
[01:12:08] <skunkKandT> neat
[01:20:32] <mshaver> well, goot go!
[01:20:46] <mshaver> got to I mean...
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[01:46:02] <andypugh> Talking about micrometers, I got a coolant-proof caliper for christmas.
[01:47:00] <andypugh> It's quite nice, but I was surprised to find that it has a little gear rack on the back. It looks like it probably uses an internal rotary encoder. Perhaps that is the only way to manage IP65
[01:56:16] <skunkKandT> So - I just made a stupid mistake.... I was cutting some part and thought I would give a g64p.005 tolerance so that I didn;t cut any corners... but I typed in p005 and so a cut that had about .25 bulge in it turned into a strait line.
[01:56:34] <cradek> ouch
[01:56:55] <skunkKandT> I was looking at the preview in axis and the cutter was not following the path at all...
[01:56:59] <cradek> I bet with an overly large P value you can get some very silly paths
[01:57:22] <cradek> heck, that sucks. hope you didn't ruin anything serious.
[01:57:25] <andypugh> skunkKandT: Expensive mistake?
[01:57:34] <skunkKandT> stupid.
[01:57:40] <cradek> measure twice, cut once, weld, cut again
[01:57:52] <andypugh> I only make stuff more myself, so that would simply be a design change :-)
[01:57:53] <skunkKandT> not really - just a lot of time. (personal project.)
[01:58:08] <andypugh> (for myself)
[01:59:07] <skunkKandT> I didn't make any extras.. of course that would happen. (so I need to start from scratch.) Have enough material though..
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[02:00:41] <andypugh> Anyway, time to sleep.
[02:00:49] <skunkKandT> good night
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[02:01:34] <skunkKandT> heh - and the last cut of the part also...
[02:16:15] <clytle374> Kinda makes you appreciate things getting scraped early, like on the saw ;)
[02:17:27] <skunkKandT> heh
[02:17:38] <skunkKandT> hey look - it is following the path now!
[02:18:42] <skunkKandT> if I would have caught it on the first path it would have been fine. but I had already run 1 good part so I didn't think that little change would cause any problems..
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[03:20:14] <Snowman0> I'm new to cnc. so how do I do a manual tool change and retouch off Z in the mddle of a run?
[03:20:41] <Snowman0> What would the gcode look like?
[03:21:52] <Snowman0> I need to to stop, raise up so I can get to the spindle, be able to touch off Z and resume.
[03:22:39] <Eartaker> Snowman0: if you doing a manual change and having to retouch off the tool then having the code use tool numbers will be usless... you could just run each process as a different file
[03:22:54] <Eartaker> untill you get the hang of it
[03:26:44] <Snowman0> so the only way to change tools without running differnt files is to have a tool changing collet so that I would know the exact length of each tool and to populate the tool table with it?
[03:31:36] <Snowman0> Eartaker: Is it the touchoff that is the problem?
[03:33:06] <clytle374> I think the problem is you have to stop the program to touch off the tool
[03:33:53] <Snowman0> I see
[03:37:17] <Snowman0> Well it looks like I'm stuck making different files untill I and figure out a way to change tools acurately
[03:37:42] <clytle374> r8 spindle?
[03:38:05] <Snowman0> woodworking router
[03:40:34] <Snowman0> I made an adapter for a jakobs chuck to go into the collet so that I can us drill bits and I wanted to be able to chuck it up in the middle of a run to drill some hole then go back to the mill to finish the cuts
[03:43:49] <Eartaker> Snowman0: when you have a system that allows you to program in tool lengths the code is wrote to stop the spindle, raise the head and prompt for a change or use an ATC.
[03:44:12] <Ekkeri> I think you could try to make a tool change holder for each tool so you could position same tool always to (almost) same position, not sure how accurate you will need to be
[03:44:21] <Eartaker> Snowman0: so you could try telling it to load a tool with an offset of 0 and then zero the tool
[03:44:52] <Eartaker> what CAM software?
[03:45:04] <Snowman0> cambam
[03:46:37] <Eartaker> you could edit your code to pause
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[03:47:48] <Snowman0> I can hit the pause button, but I need it to raise the head then rezero the new tool
[03:47:53] <Eartaker> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode_main.html#sub:M6:-Tool-Change
[03:48:36] <Snowman0> I will go back to reading some more, I just thought that maybe I was missing something easy
[03:48:45] <Snowman0> Thanks
[03:48:52] <Eartaker> it all depends on your system
[03:49:10] <Ekkeri> I have get used to use M66 for manual toolchange :)
[03:49:27] <Ekkeri> now it's "input control", damn
[03:49:50] <skunkworks_> Snowman0: you cannot pause a program and jog with emc. But 'run from line' work very well for me.
[03:50:32] <skunkworks_> or you can setup a switch to probe tool lengths automatically
[03:50:51] <Snowman0> skunkwirks_: I learned that one already :o
[03:51:03] <skunkworks_> sorry - got in here late ;)
[03:51:42] <Snowman0> The prope is another project on the list of things to do
[03:52:34] <Ekkeri> I have one that light up a led, maybe I will try to mod it some day IF I get my machine to work :)
[03:52:35] <Snowman0> It is a homebuilt machine that I'm using to make itself better, just got it tuned up a few days ago
[03:53:37] <Snowman0> I'm just need to wait for the small end mills to get here and let them drill the holes
[03:53:43] <Ekkeri> I have funny pc now, it says "Keyboard not found, Press F1 to Resume"
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[03:53:53] <Snowman0> LOL
[03:54:36] <skunkworks_> common error :)
[03:55:03] <Ekkeri> my ubuntu have some problems with my screen
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[03:55:22] <Ekkeri> it says unknown monitor and there isn't clock etc. in taskbar
[03:55:54] <Eartaker> what version of ubuntu?
[03:56:31] <Ekkeri> 10.04 LTS
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[03:57:18] <Ekkeri> I get those back if I change resolution to 800x600
[03:57:35] <Ekkeri> and then back to 1280x1024
[03:57:42] <Eartaker> hmm
[03:57:44] <Eartaker> odd
[03:57:48] <Eartaker> vga?
[03:58:02] <Ekkeri> yup
[03:58:15] <Eartaker> can it use DVI?
[03:58:29] <Ekkeri> but I'm not too concerned about that now, since I ordered new mobo
[03:58:32] <Ekkeri> nope
[03:59:20] <Ekkeri> just booted it up now so I can try emc2 again :)
[03:59:47] <Ekkeri> just fiddling with it
[04:00:11] <Ekkeri> removed my mesa card already
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[04:09:46] <Ekkeri> can I update softwares via update manager or will it mess things up?
[04:16:17] <Eartaker> it wont mess up anything
[04:16:22] <Eartaker> you should update
[04:17:14] <Eartaker> if you want to do it from the terminal, sudo apt-get update then sudo apt-get upgrade
[04:21:57] <Ekkeri> it seems that terminal doesn't open anymore, it just kinda flashes :)
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[04:27:12] <clytle374> can you still ctrl-alt-backspace and kill the x-server?
[04:28:56] <Ekkeri> nope
[04:30:31] <Eartaker> use ctrl+alt+F1 to goto run level 1 then ctrl+alt+F7 to come back into X
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[04:36:37] <clytle374> isn't ctrl+alt+F1 just to a shell? Or is Ubuntu switching run levels that way?
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[04:41:14] <Eartaker> it will take you to a shell but you can change the run level from there if you want
[04:42:54] <Ekkeri> it was 2
[04:42:57] <Ekkeri> or still is :)
[04:46:55] <Eartaker> ahh
[04:46:59] <Eartaker> I was close lol
[04:50:00] <clytle374> yep, a shell is what he needs
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[05:00:31] <FinboySlick> Sheesh and a half... The more I use gnome3 the more I feel like my big fancy monitor went back to 852x600. What's the obsession with making everything so darn big? I can tell that a button is a button without it having a 100 pixel border around it.
[05:01:38] <clytle374> Ubuntu did a good job turning a pc into a phone, don't you think?
[05:02:58] <FinboySlick> Nah, that's pure Gnome3 on Gentoo... But it's the same trendy thing let's waste everyone's space and time mentality.
[05:03:18] <FinboySlick> I set this up to see if I could convince myself to move on from gnome2.
[05:04:13] <KimK> Ha, I was just going to say, "What, you *don't want* your 1920x1080 monitor to look like your smartphone? But we thought it was a *great* idea!" (Let's see, 2 square feet of high-res display, so... 12 buttons should be about right.)
[05:05:30] <FinboySlick> KimK: I have to learn how to make themes... Maybe I can save the world.
[05:06:34] <KimK> I am told that 12.04 can be switched back to the earlier desktop look (gnome 2? different theme? dunno.) for those that hate Unity. I haven't tried it, but the buzz isn't good.
[05:06:59] <FinboySlick> Gnome3 has a fallback mode, yes. But that won't make anything smaller.
[05:08:00] <KimK> Maybe xfce and/or Xubuntu? I've heard good things about xfce from time to time.
[05:08:48] <FinboySlick> I used xfce for a while. It's a fair bit more sane, but it's lacking in features.
[05:09:24] <clytle374> running xfce here
[05:10:00] <FinboySlick> A friend of mine got fed up and decided to go jwm.
[05:10:13] <FinboySlick> Honestly, I just might to.
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[05:10:52] <KimK> Well, if you can save the world, we will certainly welcome that. I'm not looking forward to 12.04 because of the bad buzz (I admit I haven't tried it myself), but maybe as it draws closer there will be more objections and a "plan b" (for us Luddites) will emerge?
[05:10:59] <FinboySlick> The whole let's integrate everything in order to make it all suck evenly reminds me too much of the way the world's governments are doing.
[05:11:33] <KimK> Ha, yes, let's all be equally miserable, lol.
[05:12:24] <FinboySlick> Anyway... Had to rant a bit. I can go back to bed now and pray for the Linux John Galt to finish his work.
[05:13:33] <FinboySlick> The worse part when it comes to gnome is that if you do fix it and submit patches... They *refuse* them.
[05:13:33] <clytle374> hehe
[05:13:55] <KimK> Ha, OK. Q: "Why is the new desktop so bad?" A: "Who is John Galt?"
[05:14:16] <clytle374> they decided they were too important for the users, this was obviouus to me when they put the buttons on the left side of the windows
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[05:14:56] <clytle374> I think xfce will be good for emc http://i.imgur.com/9Qxzf.png
[05:15:02] <FinboySlick> Damn communists, always putting things to the left.
[05:15:59] <clytle374> John Galt: Charter from the book Atlas Shrugged
[05:16:10] <clytle374> Also a pretty cool internet radio host
[05:16:32] <FinboySlick> clytle374: Huh?
[05:17:15] <KimK> Really? I'll have to Google him, I didn't know.
[05:17:33] <FinboySlick> OK, off for real now.
[05:17:38] <clytle374> There is a guy that has a internet radio show, goes by the handle John Galt.
[05:17:42] <FinboySlick> You all be good, creative and non-wasteful of space.
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[05:18:36] <KimK> OK, FinboySlick, nice pic, I saw it earlier when you were proud of your low jitter, but I failed to grasp that it was also xfce. Bah, too slow.
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[05:19:24] <clytle374> it was me :)
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[05:27:51] <KimK> Ah, OK, sorry, I was confused.
[05:27:58] <KimK> Still a nice pic!
[05:28:42] <KimK> (And so it turns out I wasn't too slow, lol!)
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[07:01:05] <Ekkeri> damn, I want Mesa 7I73
[07:01:24] <Ekkeri> is there any info about that and emc?
[07:01:48] <Ekkeri> well, there isn't even manual @ http://www.mesanet.com/aiodaughter.html
[07:02:47] <Ekkeri> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?Mesa_Cards#EMC2_Supported_Daughtercards it's there thou
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[11:37:28] <Loetmichel> moin
[11:37:41] <Loetmichel> errr.. mornin'
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[18:27:17] <Aero-Tec> hello
[18:27:49] <Aero-Tec> looks way to quiet here
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[18:28:20] <Aero-Tec> anyone know the max axis EMC2 can run?
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[18:28:33] <Tom_itx> 9 iirc
[18:28:37] <Tom_itx> 8 or 9
[18:28:39] <Tom_itx> i think
[18:28:44] <Aero-Tec> that is what I thought
[18:29:03] <SWPLinux> 9 coordinated axes, as many motors as you want
[18:29:06] <Aero-Tec> 9 is what I read at one time long ago
[18:29:25] <Aero-Tec> lol
[18:30:05] <Aero-Tec> so EMC can run 20 axis but only 9 can move at the same time?
[18:30:39] <Aero-Tec> can one change the axis that move at the same time?
[18:30:40] <SWPLinux> no, EMC can run 9 axes, but as many motors as you want :)
[18:30:57] <SWPLinux> there's a difference between an axis (as used in G-code) and a motor (as attached to a machine)
[18:31:23] <skunkKandT> joints vs axis
[18:31:35] <skunkKandT> or actuators vs axis
[18:31:39] <SWPLinux> right
[18:31:51] <skunkKandT> Hi SWPLinux
[18:31:57] <SWPLinux> but a lot of people get them confused, especially if they come from the Mach world
[18:32:05] <Aero-Tec> not following
[18:32:08] <Aero-Tec> lol
[18:32:10] <SWPLinux> hi skunk{works,KandT}
[18:32:10] <Aero-Tec> that is me
[18:32:18] <Aero-Tec> I am coming from mach
[18:32:33] <SWPLinux> consider a gantry that has two motors for X motion
[18:32:44] <Aero-Tec> ok
[18:32:52] <SWPLinux> that's two joints (motors), but you only program X in the G-code
[18:33:36] <SWPLinux> you don't want to have to program X and something else to get the gantry to move, since the two motors should be considered as one
[18:34:01] <Aero-Tec> funny to call one axis that has 2 motors 2 joints
[18:34:28] <SWPLinux> heh. remember that EMC actually can use feedback, so there has to be a difference
[18:34:42] <SWPLinux> also homing is a little different for 2 motors vs. one
[18:35:05] <SWPLinux> but once you get the two motors positioned correctly relative to one another, you want them to act as one
[18:35:27] <Aero-Tec> I could never see the fuss made over 2 motors
[18:35:38] <SWPLinux> study it a while, you'll learn :)
[18:35:47] <Aero-Tec> mach will slave 2 axis together and drive them as one
[18:36:10] <skunkKandT> well - think about this - emc can be used to run robots where the 'joints' of the robot arm have no relation to xyzabc...
[18:36:28] <Aero-Tec> seems like such a waste loosing one axis just the slave a motor
[18:36:45] <skunkKandT> with emc - you don't
[18:37:13] <awallin> take a look at gantrykins. it allows things like xxyz or similar..
[18:37:31] <Aero-Tec> why not have one step and dir drive 2 or more step and dir drivers?
[18:37:48] <Aero-Tec> oops
[18:37:48] <SWPLinux> Aero-Tec: what if one motor coupling slips a little?
[18:38:08] <awallin> well in open loop you can hook up the one step/dir output wherever you want ofcourse...
[18:38:16] <Aero-Tec> one step and dir output drive 2 or more
[18:38:32] <SWPLinux> yep, that's fine for programs that can't handle feedback (like Mach)
[18:38:40] <SWPLinux> unless something slips of course
[18:39:25] <isssy> hey , look at the joint axes3 branch , there is everiting you need
[18:39:26] <Aero-Tec> if your encoder is on the motor then there should be no difference if a coupler slips
[18:40:22] <Aero-Tec> now if you have feedback on the machine, like a glass scale then the computer will see somethings up and try to correct for it
[18:40:33] <SWPLinux> you can work around the deficiencies of an open-loop controller in several ways. Luckily, you don't need to with EMC
[18:41:26] <SWPLinux> but it is harder to set up (closed loop in general, that is), which is one reason why a lot of people don't bother
[18:41:35] <clytle374> I'd think that without feedback you'd have trouble if cutting loads were way out on one end of the gantry
[18:41:58] <clytle374> I meant individual feedback
[18:42:12] <Aero-Tec> Mesa web site talks about having 12 axis using the 5i25 card
[18:42:22] <SWPLinux> yes, unless you design the system so that the maximum cutting load can be handled by either motor
[18:42:39] <SWPLinux> the Mesa site talks about axes the way we talk about joints
[18:42:46] <SWPLinux> so they're talking about supporting 12 motors
[18:42:57] <SWPLinux> one of which could be the spindle, for instance
[18:43:42] <SWPLinux> glass tables are annoying when you have an optical mouse
[18:43:44] <Aero-Tec> can 2 or more EMC2 computers and slaved together to work as one
[18:44:11] <SWPLinux> yes and no. you can only truly coordinate motion on one machine, but many I/O functions can be done on multiple interconnected PCs
[18:44:31] <Aero-Tec> cool
[18:44:55] <SWPLinux> the original design of EMC had the IO controls running on a separate computer from the motion controls, and the user interface on a third machine
[18:45:13] <SWPLinux> and it still works that way, for the most part
[18:46:47] <Aero-Tec> is there a max number of joints that EMC can handle?
[18:47:22] <SWPLinux> it's pretty much limited only by your CPU speed and hardware connections
[18:47:29] <Aero-Tec> I dream about making a robot arm some day very soon
[18:48:17] <Aero-Tec> so the arms do not have xyzabc, so how do you control them?
[18:48:19] <SWPLinux> you could theoretically use one trajectory planner to run several machines from one computer, they'd just all be doing the same thing
[18:48:43] <Aero-Tec> now that would be very cool
[18:49:01] <SWPLinux> yeah - one PC and a dozen milling machines making identical parts :)
[18:49:55] <SWPLinux> (same concept as hooking one set of step/dir signals to multiple stepper drives, just all done in software with HAL)
[18:50:02] <Aero-Tec> that is very good to know
[18:50:27] <Aero-Tec> I may have to try that some day
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[18:53:36] <Aero-Tec> isssy: what did you mean by "look at the joint axes3 branch , there is everiting you need"
[18:54:20] <Aero-Tec> so how do you program a arm?
[18:54:21] <SWPLinux> there are some confusions in the code regarding joints and axes. that branch of development clears up some of those and fixes some bugs that aren't often encountered with "simple" machines
[18:54:55] <Aero-Tec> some said the joints of a arm do not relate to xyzabc
[18:55:09] <SWPLinux> there are several sets of kinematics with EMC. one of them is for generic serial kinematics systems, like robot arms where one link sits on top of another link and joint
[18:55:15] <SWPLinux> they do in EMC :)
[18:55:50] <SWPLinux> once you set up the kinematics correctly, you can program robots in cartesian coordinates just like a trivial kinematics machine
[18:56:07] <SWPLinux> (such as A Bridgeport, where there's a 1:1 mapping of axes to joints)
[18:56:08] <Aero-Tec> cool
[18:56:21] <SWPLinux> yeah. it was pretty neat to see that work in person
[18:56:33] <Aero-Tec> so you still use xyz for writing code
[18:57:30] <Aero-Tec> the arm thing fascinates me
[18:57:35] <Aero-Tec> want to learn more
[18:57:43] <SWPLinux> yes. as long as you stay within the constraints of the machine (ie, maximum travels), you can use the same G-code on machines that are constructed differently
[18:58:10] <SWPLinux> at least in theory - of course there will be things to watch out for in practice
[18:58:33] <Aero-Tec> have you made or programmed a arm?
[18:58:55] <SWPLinux> but there's no fundamental difference between e.g. a Bridgeport with a motor to tilt the head and the same Bridgeport with a trunion rotary on the table
[18:59:18] <SWPLinux> I haven't made one, but I did help get one working
[18:59:32] <Aero-Tec> was it fun?
[19:00:01] <Aero-Tec> it just looks so cool to see arms move and do things
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[19:00:36] <SWPLinux> http://www.mpm1.com:8080/machines/robots/americanrobots1/
[19:00:49] <Aero-Tec> would love to do a production machine that is loaded and unloaded with arms
[19:02:19] <SWPLinux> http://www.mpm1.com:8080/machines/robots/americanrobots1/pictures/S1030221.JPG
[19:02:19] <SWPLinux> that's a pretty good photo
[19:02:19] <SWPLinux> yeah, I've seen those, but my job was setting up a different machine on that line
[19:06:20] <Jymmm> swammpy!!
[19:06:20] <skunkKandT> Aero-Tec: this is the robot doing actual xyz movements.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80YhX73DuSg
[19:06:20] <Aero-Tec> funny seeing a 5.25 drive on a robot arm
[19:06:20] <SWPLinux> hi Jymmm
[19:06:20] <skunkKandT> that SWPLinux was talking about
[19:06:20] <skunkKandT> and one of those guys is SWPLinux !!
[19:06:25] <Jymmm> SWPLinux: so, did .jp get released?
[19:08:32] <SWPLinux> oooh - I'm in a movie? :)
[19:08:35] <Aero-Tec> witch guy?
[19:08:37] <SWPLinux> Jymmm: .jp what?
[19:08:44] <SWPLinux> one of the balding ones
[19:08:47] <SWPLinux> without glaasses :)
[19:08:50] <SWPLinux> -a
[19:09:14] <Jymmm> SWPLinux: what movie? Godzilla the musical?
[19:09:43] <SWPLinux> a movie on the intarwebs
[19:10:02] <Jymmm> SWPLinux: BALD??? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0473001/
[19:10:21] <SWPLinux> baldING
[19:10:23] <SWPLinux> dick
[19:10:23] <Aero-Tec> does the machine mover faster then that?
[19:10:43] <Jymmm> SWPLinux: As in the actor you mean?
[19:10:51] <SWPLinux> it can, but since we didn't have proper hold-downs and we were all standing around it, we kept it slow
[19:11:27] <Aero-Tec> good plan
[19:11:45] <Jymmm> SWPLinux: got a link to the movie info?
[19:11:47] <Aero-Tec> would hate to get slapped by it
[19:12:41] <Aero-Tec> so if your doing xyz, and you rotate the base 90 deg, now what?
[19:13:19] <Aero-Tec> your xyz is not under the arm, and it rotated 90 degs as well
[19:13:45] <SWPLinux> Jymmm: funny that that movie has both "bra" and "black bra" tags :)
[19:14:08] <SWPLinux> Aero-Tec: that's handled by kinematics
[19:14:32] <SWPLinux> there are limits, of course, since the arm doesn't have a rectangular region of motion
[19:14:38] <Aero-Tec> wo\\how do you get it to pick something up, rotate X deg and then put it down in the right place?
[19:14:51] <Jymmm> SWPLinux: LOL, nfc, just what came up for "movie balding"
[19:15:06] <SWPLinux> tell it where the XY coordinates of the pick-up and drop-off locations are
[19:15:09] <SWPLinux> heh
[19:16:43] <SWPLinux> ok, I'm not in that video. I thought I remembered being the one shooting it :)
[19:16:48] <Aero-Tec> so the limits will be a rectangle with the base in the center?
[19:17:08] <SWPLinux> welllllll, that's one of those sticky issues that I'm not sure is completely worked out yet :)
[19:17:55] <SWPLinux> there are some problems, like not being able to actually reach the 0,0 point (assuming you consider 0,0 to be in the center of the base)
[19:18:26] <SWPLinux> so there are poses that are impossible even within a rectangular region that is completely within the work envelope
[19:18:31] <Aero-Tec> if your using the arm to cut foam or something I can see the xyz axis thing working well
[19:18:45] <Aero-Tec> but for loading and unloading other machines
[19:19:07] <Aero-Tec> there must be a better system to use
[19:19:14] <SWPLinux> you can always run the motors separately, or run them with classicladder or some other module - you don't have to use the G-code interpreter and trajectory planner
[19:19:42] <SWPLinux> they can still be run in HAL, from the same PC as EMC (or a different one)
[19:20:24] <SWPLinux> I don't think anyone has really pursued it, but EMC was originally designed to be used as a machine controller within a larger work cell or factory
[19:20:48] <Aero-Tec> what options are there in EMC to run a arm?
[19:20:49] <SWPLinux> so you could theoretically have one PC in a managers office showing you the status of several machines or lines on the floor
[19:21:32] <SWPLinux> I can think of only 2, though I think there's a third. there's scarakins for SCARA-like robots and pumakins for PUMA-style arms (much like the one in the video)
[19:21:47] <SWPLinux> oh, the other is genserkins, I think (generic serial kinematics)
[19:23:45] <Aero-Tec> is there some place one can go a read up on arms and ways of controlling then, for the not so up to speed guys like me
[19:24:38] <SWPLinux> there is probably some information in the EMC wiki
[19:24:40] <skunkKandT> genserkins is the newest and most flexable... if I understand it right
[19:25:02] <SWPLinux> genserkins should be able to do everything scarakins and pumakins do, as well as other things
[19:25:05] <skunkKandT> alex_joni: worked on that.
[19:25:10] <skunkKandT> yes
[19:25:56] * skunkKandT has a puma arm that he needs to get running
[19:26:11] <SWPLinux> bleh. even with only half the water, this coffee is still crap
[19:27:54] <Jymmm> try vodka
[19:29:00] <skunkKandT> SWPLinux: 1:46 in the video...
[19:29:16] <Jymmm> what video? link???
[19:29:47] <skunkKandT> the one I posted earlier
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[19:32:30] <SWPLinux> ah, I enter at 1:38. Maybe Chris did that one
[19:32:36] <SWPLinux> I'm famous!
[19:33:06] <Aero-Tec> lol
[19:33:40] <Aero-Tec> so are all arms puma arms?
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[19:34:47] <Aero-Tec> looked up puma arms, looks like most if not all arms can be called that
[19:35:18] <mshaver> There's another thing called a SCARA robot as well. It's slightly simpler.
[19:36:04] <SWPLinux> and others that may have more flexibility at some of the joints, I think
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[19:41:56] <Aero-Tec> cool
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[19:42:27] <danimal_laptop> hi
[19:42:34] <Aero-Tec> lots to learn
[19:42:36] <Aero-Tec> hi
[19:45:30] <skunkKandT> danimal_laptop: long time no see
[19:45:40] <skunkKandT> for me anyway
[19:46:09] <danimal_laptop> yea, been busy
[19:46:12] <danimal_laptop> how goes it?
[19:48:13] <skunkKandT> so far so good.. Though emc made a path mistake yesterday - but at last it was me... ;)
[19:48:47] <skunkKandT> g64p005 is a lot of tolerance....
[19:58:32] <skunkKandT> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/general_cnc_mill_lathe_control/142553-controlling_5_axis_milling_machine.html
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[20:27:21] <anonimasu> ls
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[20:31:36] * skunkKandT loves servo - running all morning and stone cold to touch
[20:32:10] <skunkKandT> even the vertical axis.. (counter balanced)
[20:33:34] <Ekkeri> I have "some" wires to solder to my servos, not very motivated
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[20:37:08] <Ekkeri> 4x (12+4), well, that's only 64
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[20:39:50] <Ekkeri> and.. then connectors to other end :)
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[21:12:14] <skunkKandT> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/1047148-post102.html
[21:13:12] <syyl_> oh yeah :D
[21:13:13] <syyl_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35tHYaDUmZQ&feature=youtu.be
[21:14:14] <skunkKandT> Isn't that cool!
[21:14:33] <skunkKandT> it is fun to let it que up - then run the slider back and forth ;)
[21:15:11] <syyl_> hrhr
[21:15:35] <syyl_> that tilting/rotating head looks awesome
[21:15:47] <syyl_> solid as a tank ;)
[21:16:25] <skunkKandT> stuart (the guy in the video) wrote kins to correct for sag and squareness of the machine..
[21:16:55] <syyl_> so emc calculates the machine straight and true?
[21:16:57] <syyl_> cool
[21:17:52] <alex4nder-> skunkKandT: damn, how much does that spindle/head wieigh?
[21:19:47] <skunkKandT> no clue.. (not my machine)
[21:20:56] <Jymmm> Yeah, skunkKandT only knows 40ton spindles
[21:22:57] <skunkKandT> oh - I think that is quite a bit heavier than mine (I have seen that one in person)
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[21:39:57] <SWPLinux> I think the head on the Cinci is something like 12 or 16 tons
[21:40:13] <SWPLinux> I didn't realize the machine weighed 78000 pounds total (!)
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[21:41:21] <skunkKandT> I think ours is 15 ton... But I would have to look
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[21:41:28] <skunkKandT> total
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[21:46:54] <Danimal_garage> wow, huge!
[21:47:21] <toastyde1th> is that a hydrotel
[21:49:38] <SWPLinux> Cincinnati
[21:49:42] <SWPLinux> +t?
[21:50:18] <toastyde1th> cinci hydrotel
[21:50:21] <toastyde1th> is what i'm asking
[21:50:25] <SWPLinux> Stuart has several machines where the work envelope should be measured in paces instead of inches
[21:50:25] <toastyde1th> it looks a lot like one
[21:50:27] <SWPLinux> oh, I'm not sure
[21:50:41] <toastyde1th> but I don't know if hydrotels ever came in 5 axis profiling heads
[21:53:00] <SWPLinux> well, a lot of the files associated with that machine are named "5axishydrotel.*", so it probably is a hydrotel
[21:53:08] <SWPLinux> or 5axhydrotel
[21:55:31] <toastyde1th> a lot of hydrotels used to be tracer heads
[21:56:32] <toastyde1th> clearly not that one though
[21:57:49] <SWPLinux> hmmm. bbl, time for lunch or something
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[23:14:33] <andypugh> Bah! you know those PCB's I had made? I messed up.
[23:15:28] <andypugh> The optos have two commoned earth tabs, not separate like I thought, so my current limiting resistors were bypassed, and the optos went "Phhtt"
[23:15:57] <andypugh> New PCBs on oder, I am up to almost £20 spent now!
[23:19:23] <Tom_itx> woops
[23:19:32] <Tom_itx> no way to cut and fix?
[23:21:07] <mshaver> Andypugh: Where do you get your boards? I've been using Golden Phoenix, but the figures you've been quoting are very low.
[23:21:37] <andypugh> http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/fusion-pcb-service-p-835.html?cPath=185
[23:22:08] <andypugh> They are only that cheap for tiny boards (5cm x 5cm) but as mine are 3cm x 1cm at the moment, that's fine.
[23:23:18] <andypugh> Tom_itx: It's a desperately tiny SMT board, with a serious error. (I had 1 resistor to limit current to two serially-connected leds, but they can't be wired in series...)
[23:23:53] <Tom_itx> maybe try itead
[23:24:07] <Tom_itx> btw, you know GP etc close for Chinese New Year?
[23:24:17] <Tom_itx> you will be delayed a week or two getting them
[23:24:40] <Tom_itx> one sec..
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[23:25:18] <Tom_L> http://iteadstudio.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=19_20&products_id=509
[23:25:24] <Tom_itx> they have other deals
[23:26:14] <Tom_L> http://iteadstudio.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=19_20&products_id=173
[23:26:37] <Tom_itx> i've got 100 coming from em so we'll see
[23:27:02] <andypugh> I only needed 1, so 10 was overkill. 50 would be silly :-)
[23:27:05] <Tom_itx> turned out to be cheaper than GP who i normally use
[23:27:25] <Tom_itx> try laen then
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[23:27:28] <Tom_itx> $5 sq in
[23:27:32] <Tom_itx> you get 3 back
[23:27:43] <Tom_itx> US Mfg with him
[23:28:08] <Tom_L> http://dorkbotpdx.org/wiki/pcb_order
[23:28:10] <andypugh> Seed was $10 for 10 of 5cmx5cm boards. Add in delivery and it is <£10 for 10 PCBs.
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[23:28:28] <andypugh> US mfg is no plus to me at all.
[23:28:45] <Tom_itx> well the quality is better
[23:28:51] <Tom_itx> but other than that..
[23:29:15] <Tom_itx> seeed is slow but so are the rest
[23:29:18] <andypugh> UK manufacturing I could go for. And no problems with Seeed quality yet.
[23:29:27] <Tom_itx> GP ships via FedEx so they're quicker on shipping
[23:30:35] <andypugh> In any case, just getting a solder mask and plating makes it a no-brainer compared to DIY.
[23:30:51] <Tom_itx> yeah
[23:31:01] <Tom_itx> they're easier to solder for sure
[23:31:58] <Tom_itx> what are the boards? limit sensors?
[23:32:27] <andypugh> Combined hall-sensor and encoder.
[23:33:03] <andypugh> https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Of6lsgdXzIDmIRxQI0WZONMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink
[23:33:26] <Tom_itx> ahh
[23:33:26] <Valen> what resolution you get from that encoder?
[23:33:31] <Tom_itx> for that motor thingy you're working on
[23:33:45] <andypugh> That's 200 lines, so 800ppr
[23:33:54] <Valen> not bad
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[23:34:02] <Valen> how are you sensing it?
[23:34:27] <andypugh> http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/rotary-encoders/7160604P/
[23:35:34] <andypugh> But when it says "reflective" it really means "shiny v not-shiny" It doesn't see white paper, or matt stainless, but sees polished aluminium at a wide range of distances
[23:35:53] <andypugh> Hence the polished/etched encoder tarket.
[23:35:58] <andypugh> (target)
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