#emc | Logs for 2011-11-18

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[00:13:22] <PCW> The 8I20 current loop should be fine as long as its stable (no whistles)
[00:13:23] <PCW> it is a PI loop so when you set a current you will get that current
[00:13:25] <PCW> But note tha EMC is running a torque loop so you will need plenty of D to get a reasonable amount of P
[00:14:28] <PCW> Also bare motors will be hard to tune unless you use a 4-5KHz servo thread
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[00:18:01] <Danimal_garage> just got my 7i37's, thanks PCW
[00:18:21] <PCW> You will aslo need to set the 8I20s max current to the motors max(peak) current (default is 7.5A)
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[00:19:08] <PCW> Welcome (though I didn't do anything...)
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[00:20:29] <Danimal_garage> now hopefully the machine comes this weekend so i can use them
[00:20:43] <Danimal_garage> crossing fingers that it has encoders
[00:21:38] <andypugh> PCW: Is there any hysteresis on current reversal?
[00:21:51] <PCW> No
[00:22:41] <andypugh> OK, so you think we should use D to stabilise P?
[00:23:17] <PCW> You need to with a torque loop (otherwise solution is sine wave)
[00:23:45] <andypugh> To be honest, I haven't investigated too far yet, I am still not sure I get the motor zero angle correct.
[00:24:04] <andypugh> I am putting the system back together now, I will see how it goes.
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[00:24:32] <andypugh> (it all came apart and moved rooms when I started on the 5i25 etc stuff)
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[00:26:51] <PCW> You could isolate an current issues bu just setting a static current (no PID or angle change) and turning shaft (we use a torque wrench)
[00:28:44] <Danimal_garage> sweet, vfd just showed it
[00:29:05] <Danimal_garage> it's tiny compared to my others, hard to believe it's 3.7kw
[00:33:44] <JT-Shop> neat
[00:34:38] <andypugh> PCW: As I said, I need to experiment, there are so many variables (including damaged motors)
[00:34:54] <andypugh> Well, I hope not, but they might have been second-hand for a reason.
[00:35:43] <andypugh> In other news, I might have found some electrical steel. Possibly for free from a transformer manufacturer down the road.
[00:36:14] <Danimal_garage> what's electrical steel?
[00:36:19] <PCW> Really all that could be bad other than bearings is a demagnetized rotor (check be measuring Vout/RPM)
[00:36:57] <PCW> a transformer maker must generate tons of the stuff
[00:37:05] <andypugh> Danimal_garage: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_steel
[00:37:29] <Danimal_garage> ah
[00:38:46] <Danimal_garage> has anyone used a rs485 connector to control their vfd in here?
[00:39:02] <andypugh> They are offering me 100mm strips, no mention of price yet.
[00:39:28] <JT-Shop> I've used a lan cable to control my GS2
[00:39:33] <andypugh> But I reckon I can mill and file to shape when commercial shops are quoting £400 for 30 laminations.
[00:39:46] <JT-Shop> Taco night here everyone in the neighborhood is invited
[00:40:49] <PCW> Dont bend however
[00:40:52] <JT-Shop> dang that is $630
[00:41:41] <JT-Shop> are you making a way back machine Andy?
[00:44:05] <JT-Shop> Sherman, set the Wayback Machine to 1959...
[00:44:16] <JT-Shop> bbt
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[00:46:06] <andypugh> Anyone got a laser?
[00:46:29] <Danimal_garage> laser engraver
[00:46:37] <Danimal_garage> it's not here or working yet though
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[00:47:42] <Nick001-Shop> Dinner time - bye
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[00:54:30] <andypugh> Night all
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[01:18:40] <sparrW> Danimal_garage: laser engraver? laser tin foil cutter!
[01:20:50] <emcrules_d510> PCW: how do i go about setting the max current parameters in the 8i20? Is that a setup mode thing?
[01:21:48] <PCW> Need windows unfortunately (though I think Andy has a magic HAL way to do it(
[01:22:35] <PCW> Als can be done in DOS with your existing hardware/config file
[01:22:39] <emcrules_d510> ok thats not so bad. is there software or hyperterminal
[01:23:07] <PCW> Yeah the 8I20 disk has the windows and DOS utils
[01:23:29] <PCW> You have to make a funny cable
[01:23:36] <emcrules_d510> that would be useful if mine came with one lol
[01:23:45] <PCW> DB9 --> RJ45
[01:24:18] <emcrules_d510> just so happen i have one of those wonder if it's the same pinout
[01:24:41] <PCW> Well by disk I mean the support zip file
[01:25:11] <PCW> doubtful that the pinout is correct (I think the manual has the pinout)
[01:25:30] <emcrules_d510> and that can be downloaded where?
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[01:27:28] <PCW> www.mesanet.com
[01:28:17] <emcrules_d510> i just checked it's not there
[01:28:28] <emcrules_d510> the zip files
[01:28:54] <emcrules_d510> motion control 8i20?
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[01:34:36] <PCW> Yeah its missing I'll remake the dist stuff and put it up there
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[02:03:20] <Danimal_garage> ah, the joys of ripping down 30 year old garage shelving. a face full of dust.
[02:11:07] <PCW> emcrules_d510:OK website fixed (also home made DE9--RJ45 adapter pinout added to 8I20 manual)
[02:14:07] <emcrules_d510> PCW: thanks
[02:16:59] <PCW> You dont actually need the series resistor in the host adapter if you use a USB-SERIAL dongle, they dont have +-12V serial
[02:17:01] <PCW> we have a better adapter available but hardly needed for one time use
[02:17:02] <PCW> and you can actually use your FPGA card/7I44/CONFIG file under DOS as well to run the util
[02:25:20] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: http://funstufftosee.com/images/sobriety.jpg
[02:25:23] <Jymmm> jthornton: http://funstufftosee.com/images/sobriety.jpg
[02:25:52] <Tom_itx> how can i hold a bunch of dog tags so i can laser etch them?
[02:26:02] <Tom_itx> and flip them over to do side 2
[02:26:05] <Tom_itx> ?
[02:27:17] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: Get yourself one of these http://i.istockimg.com/file_thumbview_approve/9996613/2/stock-photo-9996613-robotic-arm.jpg
[02:27:40] <Tom_itx> too complex of a solution
[02:27:54] <Tom_itx> definite cool factor though
[02:28:42] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: It's the fastener that I can't figure out yet
[02:29:09] <Tom_itx> magnets
[02:29:22] <Jymmm> everything has to be flush is the issue
[02:29:24] <Tom_itx> imbedded in the 2 halves
[02:29:32] <Tom_itx> flush it
[02:29:39] <Tom_itx> err
[02:29:58] <Jymmm> hang on, grabbing calipers..
[02:29:59] <Tom_itx> dead simple
[02:30:59] <Tom_itx> http://unitednuclear.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=70_71
[02:31:21] <Jymmm> and how to make them flush magnet boy?
[02:31:42] <Tom_itx> drill a hole and imbed them
[02:32:20] <Jymmm> in 1/8" acrylic, yeah right
[02:33:08] <Tom_itx> there are some 1/8 x 1/8"
[02:34:04] <Tom_itx> http://unitednuclear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=70_71&products_id=285
[02:34:09] <Jymmm> .I have some 0.035" thick discs that are .315" diameter
[02:34:12] <Tom_itx> get a couple of those to hold it together
[02:34:43] <Jymmm> damn, 10lbs!!!
[02:35:27] <Tom_itx> don't stick your finger between them
[02:35:41] <Jymmm> or leg
[02:35:56] <Jymmm> or torso
[02:38:10] <Tom_itx> Danimal_garage, add this to your inventory: http://unitednuclear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=28_47&products_id=392
[02:41:09] <Danimal_garage> ha
[02:41:14] <Danimal_garage> not for 2400
[02:43:03] <A2Sheds> Jymmm: are you trying to laser etch one tag at a time or etch a whole tray and then flip it over?
[02:43:18] <Tom_itx> tray
[02:43:39] <Tom_itx> he was asking about a jig the other day
[02:44:05] <Jymmm> A2Sheds: tray
[02:44:13] <Jymmm> (trays)
[02:44:15] <A2Sheds> what is the tolerance required?
[02:44:56] <Jymmm> per tray?
[02:45:10] <Jymmm> per tag?
[02:45:30] <Jymmm> alignment of a/b ?
[02:45:46] <A2Sheds> per tag and what is the size of the tray?
[02:46:01] <Jymmm> 12x24"
[02:49:29] <Jymmm> 0.010"
[02:49:39] <A2Sheds> http://www.usskidd.com/images/dog%20tags.jpg tags like these?
[02:50:03] <Jymmm> No, those are SS and have a folded edge.
[02:50:36] <A2Sheds> http://www.dogtagsonline.com/dt2.jpg ?
[02:50:56] <emcrules_d510> PCW: do you know much about andys line up procedure to calculate the rotor offset from the index on a quad encoder?
[02:50:57] <Jymmm> sure, close enough
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[02:52:19] <A2Sheds> mill two trays with the depths 1/2 the tag thickness to hold the tags by the outer edge
[02:52:57] <emcrules_d510> I'm wondering if it would be easier to place the motor in a locked rotor condition and then mechanically line up the index
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[02:53:44] <A2Sheds> http://www.gftech.net/Website_011.jpg this idea
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[02:55:31] <Tom_itx> that's a chip carrier
[02:55:35] <Jymmm> A2Sheds: I plan on/want to make the trays on the laser itself, sandwiching three layers together. But other than the semi-magnet idea, can't come up with a way to fasten them together in a somewhat spring loaded fashion
[02:56:11] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: The only thing I dont like about that magnet idea, is once a tray is loaded, there is a chance that it could come apart
[02:57:17] <A2Sheds> why springs, though it could be.... just make the two shells lock
[02:57:31] <Jymmm> A2Sheds: Ok, how?
[02:57:40] <Jymmm> A2Sheds: I'm open to ideas.
[02:58:24] <Jymmm> springloaded, makes the tags under tension so all are aligned top and left sides.
[03:04:41] <Tom_itx> steel tags?
[03:04:50] <Tom_itx> use magnets to hold them in place
[03:05:01] <Jymmm> al
[03:05:07] <Tom_itx> :/
[03:05:27] <A2Sheds> there would only be as much play in the two trays/shells as needed to match the tolerance of the tags
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[03:06:27] <A2Sheds> the tray idea works if you can hold the tags by the edge
[03:06:47] <A2Sheds> no magnets or springs needed
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[03:42:21] <tom3p> when i edm coins/medals and have to replace the electrode, i use a 'tar baby', its a mold of one side of the item made of mastic. excellent allignment & repeatability.
[03:43:14] <jdhNC> how much power does edm'ing use?
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[03:47:38] <tom3p> depends on contact area (Fp)
[03:48:56] <tom3p> and material and and and ( like i can put 35A into a .040dia (drilling)but use 25A for a .25x.25 gr/st combo(sinking).. depends
[03:50:28] <jdhNC> not enough that have to budget real cash to run it?
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[03:52:06] <tom3p> cost of electricity? i do real work at home on 15amp 230 single phase dryer outlet, not as fast or strong as at a real shop, but ok 4 me
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[04:35:47] <Shabbir> any one who has pics of 7I73
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[06:14:28] <Loetmichel> GOOOOD MOOOOORNING, VIET^W CHANNEL!!!!!111einself
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[07:01:51] <grandixximo> hello psha are you available?
[07:05:13] <psha[work]> нуы
[07:05:14] <psha[work]> yes
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[07:21:05] <grandixximo> sorry
[07:21:24] <grandixximo> you remember the issue with camer?
[07:21:27] <grandixximo> you remember the issue with camera
[07:21:46] <grandixximo> the one that write the error in dmesg and in th log
[07:22:11] <grandixximo> they become so big as to full an entire hard disk
[07:23:14] <psha[work]> maybe
[07:23:17] <psha[work]> remind me pls
[07:23:23] <psha[work]> ah
[07:23:28] <psha[work]> yea, remember
[07:23:29] <psha[work]> cable?
[07:23:34] <grandixximo> Well no
[07:23:40] <grandixximo> I haven't change anything
[07:23:47] <grandixximo> now is working much better
[07:24:00] <grandixximo> I have just install the DRO patch
[07:24:29] <grandixximo> But still if i unplug the camera
[07:24:52] <grandixximo> the error can make my hd full
[07:25:08] <grandixximo> in a few minutes, i'm very scared of that
[07:25:39] <grandixximo> [ 7209.263303] uvcvideo: Failed to query (1) UVC control 10 (unit 3) : -32 (exp. 2).
[07:25:40] <grandixximo> [ 7209.270932] uvcvideo: Failed to query (1) UVC control 4 (unit 1) : -32 (exp. 4).
[07:26:00] <grandixximo> this is what normally appear, and they are just 2 errors
[07:26:08] <grandixximo> but if i unplug the device
[07:26:48] <grandixximo> [ 9974.903611] uvcvideo: Failed to set UVC probe control : -19 (exp. 26).
[07:26:49] <grandixximo> [ 9974.903833] uvcvideo: Failed to set UVC probe control : -19 (exp. 26).
[07:26:49] <grandixximo> [ 9974.922622] uvcvideo: Failed to set UVC probe control : -19 (exp. 26).
[07:27:06] <grandixximo> a lot of this message appear in dmesg
[07:27:32] <grandixximo> if you could disable the camera once is unplugged it would be much better
[07:28:08] <mhaberler> welcome to the joys of uvc video on linux
[07:29:08] <grandixximo> does that mean that the problem cannot be fixed?
[07:29:24] <mhaberler> you were lucky to find a working camera..
[07:29:48] <grandixximo> i have tested lot of camera all working
[07:30:31] <grandixximo> from Microsoft cameras to Chinese made
[07:33:04] <grandixximo> the system to find position with the camera is actually nice, and it's working pretty well, it's precise enough, not perfect but precise enough, the only problem is when camera accidentally disconnect and you see after 2 hour you HD is garbage
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[07:35:58] <grandixximo> it gets the Hard disk so full that is not write-read anymore hence the system cannot start, i ruined a 16GB IDE memory, now i run on a 320GB hard is just to be safe
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[07:50:55] <psha[work]> grandixximo: if you turn of camera in camview - it's still spamming in dmesg?
[07:50:59] <psha[work]> turn fof
[07:50:59] <psha[work]> off
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[08:18:12] <grandixximo> hpw can i turn it off?
[08:18:27] <grandixximo> my camera does not have a power switch
[08:19:55] <grandixximo> can i write some code to turn it off?
[08:22:48] <psha[work]> there is button
[08:22:50] <psha[work]> in camview-emc
[08:22:59] <psha[work]> (i hope) :)
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[08:23:38] <psha[work]> yes, there is one
[08:23:56] <psha[work]> with lable 'On'
[08:24:16] <psha[work]> in settings
[08:25:06] <grandixximo> i can't open camview
[08:26:25] <grandixximo> i have to open EMC without camera enabled
[08:27:32] <psha[work]> you can run it without emc
[08:27:46] <psha[work]> just type command from .ini file without -w {XID} part
[08:30:00] <grandixximo> I have to restart my pc ttyl
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[08:32:37] <Jymmm> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/93832939/makerslide-open-source-linear-bearing-system?ref=category
[08:32:56] <Jymmm> DIY Laser http://buildlog.net/
[08:33:34] <Jymmm> DIY Laser v2.0 http://www.buildlog.net/blog/2011/02/buildlog-net-2-x-laser/
[08:34:25] <Loetmichel> Jymmm: hmm... does that slide need to be made with custom extruded aluminium?
[08:35:20] <Jymmm> The slide IS custom extrusion, that's the whole point of it. Cut to length you need
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[08:35:27] <Loetmichel> i would simply use the standard item profiles and stet 2 grinded 12mm round steel bars in the top and bottom grooves
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[08:35:42] <Loetmichel> for the slide to run on
[08:36:18] <Jymmm> MakerSlide Open Source Linear Bearing System by Barton Dring
[08:36:18] <Jymmm> An open source linear bearing for CNC equipment that is low cost and extremely easy to integrate into your design.
[08:36:53] <Loetmichel> more or less this principe inverted: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=8884
[08:38:30] <Loetmichel> Jymmm: jeah, i meant: the custom extrusion is not cheab, the extrusion tool ist about 3000 Eur or something and lasts only about a ton or so of aluminium
[08:38:39] <grandixximo> turrning off the camera seems to stop the log file
[08:38:46] <grandixximo> psha
[08:39:11] <psha[work]> glad to hear
[08:39:29] <grandixximo> can you stop camera when tab not selected/
[08:39:31] <grandixximo> /
[08:39:33] <grandixximo> ?
[08:39:47] <Loetmichel> so if one can use cheap readily aviable extruded profiles and only make the sled yourself one could save even more money
[08:44:27] <grandixximo> psha[work]: do you think you can fix this and update the camview-emc in your PPA?
[08:44:54] <psha[work]> grandixximo: i guess no
[08:45:03] <grandixximo> oh
[08:45:09] <psha[work]> since it's not trivial to detect when tab is selected or not
[08:45:22] <psha[work]> theese are separate processes - camview and axis
[08:45:27] <psha[work]> so camview has no info about axis tabs
[08:45:34] <psha[work]> and axis has no info about camview internal state
[08:45:34] <grandixximo> Ok then you could add an on button?
[08:46:00] <psha[work]> you don't like where it's placed?
[08:46:37] <psha[work]> copy camview-emc.ui file, edit it with glade and put it where you want, then give -u path-to-your.ui
[08:46:37] <grandixximo> oh i see it now
[08:47:01] <psha[work]> it's possible to adjust interface to exactly your needs
[08:48:49] <grandixximo> ok i get it
[08:49:26] <grandixximo> Can i set the camera to be off when iopen EMC?
[08:50:00] <psha[work]> hm, don't know :]
[08:51:16] <grandixximo> ahah
[08:51:29] <psha[work]> probably no
[08:52:22] <grandixximo> Ok
[08:52:44] <grandixximo> Thanks for your help
[08:52:48] <grandixximo> much appreciated
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[10:26:29] <maximilian_h> did somebody before notice problems with stg2 cards with newer atx power supplies ?
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[10:27:17] <maximilian_h> effect is one old atx power supply that works ok and the stg2 card works too
[10:28:09] <maximilian_h> and one brand new atx power supply, and the opamps produce a dc offset of 0,94v for the servos +-10v signal, which is not nice at all
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[11:07:53] <Jymmm> Who wanted a inkjet type device at one point... http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1908026860/inkshield-an-open-source-inkjet-shield-for-arduino?play=1&ref=users
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[12:34:05] <vitaeear> hi EMCusers, I am working on a Gcode lib. in a sub , I need to catch the last feed rate programmed (Fxxx) , then modifing the value ...make a job and later , just before the end of the sub set the Feed value to the saved value
[12:35:18] <vitaeear> how can i do this ? is there a # parameter that contain the feed rate ?
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[12:47:19] <jthornton> I think in 2.5 there is a HAL pin with the F value
[12:49:12] <vitaeear> I use the 2.4.6
[12:49:47] <vitaeear> i will take a look ...
[12:52:56] <jthornton> motion.requested-vel
[12:53:35] <jthornton> it is in 2.4.x as well
[12:53:51] <jthornton> and you should get 2.4.7
[12:54:15] <jthornton> vitaeear: do you use a gamepad to jog your machine?
[12:55:45] <vitaeear> i have the 2.4.7 but the screen show 2.4.6 , i use a small touch panel for jog
[12:56:15] <vitaeear> thank you for the information.
[12:56:19] <jthornton> np
[13:02:00] <vitaeear> Requested -vel is only set when there is a move and go back to 0 when the movement is finished , when the sub is called it is 0
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[13:17:12] <vitaeear> i have made a grep ... halcmd show | grep feed and halcmd show | grep vel . dont find something like 'programmed feed'
[13:20:03] <jthornton> requested-vel is the only one I know of
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[13:29:50] <vitaeear> a rather solution is to make a sub with the feed as #1 parameter , the sub will do F[#1] and #<_feed>= #1 and to call the sub each time the feed change . it is rather a bad idea
[13:30:39] <vitaeear> oops #<_feed>=[ #1 ]
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[15:36:42] <servos4ever> skunkworks - you sent a link to some screen output from a disk utility of some kind a week or two ago. What did you use to do that?
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[15:50:19] <skunkworks> servos4ever: what?
[15:50:30] <skunkworks> oh -
[15:51:52] <skunkworks> in the menu's there is system->administration->disk utillity. Click on the drive and then you can view smart data. (if supported)
[16:05:09] <servos4ever> I don't have that. I'm on 8.04. Is that new with 10.04, or do you need to install it?
[16:10:53] <servos4ever> I searched around for it, but I can't find it anywhere...
[16:11:08] <Danimal_garage> hi
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[16:31:21] <Danimal_garage> ah, the joys of fiberglass insulation
[16:37:43] <Tom_itx> everyone should be able to experience that and mudding & taping sheetrock at least once
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[16:44:03] <Danimal_garage> unfortunately much more than once for me
[16:44:10] <Danimal_garage> almost done though
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[16:55:00] <Danimal_garage> phew, done with the insulation
[16:55:08] <Danimal_garage> drywall now :(
[17:07:33] <JT-Shop> the secret to mudding drywall is...
[17:08:46] <skunkworks> servos4ever: Odd - I don't remember.
[17:09:28] <A2Sheds> JT-Shop: always hire somebody else to do it?
[17:10:23] <JT-Shop> that's one secret the other one is don't put more mud on than you really need :)
[17:10:41] <Danimal_garage> who says i'm mudding haha
[17:10:47] <Danimal_garage> i'm just hanging it now
[17:11:09] <Danimal_garage> but sliding 5/8" drywall behind a couple mills isn't the funnest job
[17:11:50] <Tom_itx> move em outta the way
[17:14:01] <JT-Shop> 5/8" drywall by yourself sucks period
[17:17:07] <Danimal_garage> Tom_itx: yea, the drywall is a whole lot easier to move
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[17:31:17] <Danimal_garage> 1 sheet left!
[17:31:26] <Danimal_garage> of course it's in the hardest spot to get to
[17:33:46] <JT-5i25> You can do it!
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[17:34:55] <Danimal_garage> really?! i wasnt sure before, but now i am!
[17:35:09] <Danimal_garage> JT-5i25: what coolant did you say you use?
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[17:47:02] <Tom_itx> Danimal_garage make sure you cut the outlet holes in the right places
[17:47:09] <Tom_itx> ask JT-Shop how to do it
[17:47:45] <JT-Shop> ValCool VP Tech 005B
[17:48:19] <JT-Shop> Tom_itx: in OSB!
[17:48:51] <JT-Shop> I cut them int he right place... the sheet of OSB was in the wrong place
[17:49:08] <Danimal_garage> ah i thought it was valcool. someone gave me a 5 gallon bucket of valcool vnt 650. ever hear of it?
[17:49:18] <Danimal_garage> lol JT-5i25
[17:49:25] <Danimal_garage> mine are in the right places so far
[17:50:22] <Tom_itx> http://www.koolrite.com/testimonials.html
[17:50:50] <Tom_itx> i think we used valcool but i'm not sure
[17:52:43] <JT-Shop> I see a VP650
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[18:03:17] <Loetmichel> re @ home
[18:05:00] <Danimal_garage> JT-Shop: i ripped down all the conduit and my sub pannel so i could start from scratch
[18:05:07] <Danimal_garage> i had to take it all off the wall anyways
[18:05:37] <IchGucksLive> Loetmichel: heute hab ich 50g blödsinn durchgenuddelt
[18:05:42] <Danimal_garage> i put the 115v in the walls, but i'm still going to use conduit for the 208v
[18:06:34] <IchGucksLive> Danimal_garage: how high is the voltige on the plug in the USA
[18:06:46] <IchGucksLive> real mesurment
[18:07:47] <A2Sheds> 110-120VAC 60 hz
[18:07:47] <Danimal_garage> no clue
[18:08:02] <Loetmichel> IchGucksLive: english please, I understand german, but the others here dont.
[18:08:17] <IchGucksLive> Loetmichel: only joke
[18:09:04] <A2Sheds> what does Germany use again 220VAC/ 50Hz?
[18:09:28] <Danimal_garage> so motors go slower
[18:09:34] <Loetmichel> 230V +5-10% 50hz +-0,1hz
[18:09:34] <Danimal_garage> :)
[18:10:11] <Loetmichel> @A2Sheds
[18:11:08] * Loetmichel had a bad day today. Shredded 2 shielded glasses for LCD monitor.
[18:11:19] <Loetmichel> 250 eur a piece...
[18:11:29] <A2Sheds> here it's 110-120VAC, 60Hz 1pole, 120/208 for wye 2-pole or 3phase, 120/240 for delta 2-pole or 3 -phase
[18:12:19] <Loetmichel> A2Sheds: ok 400V 3 phase is here also standard
[18:12:29] <A2Sheds> whats the translation for durchgenuddelt?
[18:12:58] <IchGucksLive> A2Sheds: busted
[18:13:10] <A2Sheds> kaput
[18:13:18] <Loetmichel> in fact 90% of all buildings have 3 phase, just splitted for 230V Phase-> neutral in the wall sockets
[18:13:44] <IchGucksLive> Loetmichel: only 90%
[18:14:03] <IchGucksLive> all 3 phases go to the house socket
[18:14:20] <IchGucksLive> in RLP standard
[18:14:25] <Loetmichel> IchGucksLive: yes, there a some old buildings which have only 1p 230V coming in
[18:14:42] <IchGucksLive> no way 90%
[18:14:48] <Loetmichel> maybe its 95% 'til now
[18:15:02] <IchGucksLive> only 1 % old house if not lower
[18:15:31] <Loetmichel> in the nineties it was about 15% one phase
[18:15:44] <Loetmichel> but maybe this have decreased over time
[18:16:30] <IchGucksLive> 2005 the regions got the power down from air to ground and within this all houses also my grandma with only 20feet of electric wirering in the house got the 3 phases in
[18:16:57] <Loetmichel> IchGucksLive: not everywhere ;-)
[18:17:05] <IchGucksLive> agree
[18:17:16] <IchGucksLive> but mostly
[18:17:33] <A2Sheds> the US used to be mostly delta, 120/240, 480 and 600
[18:18:03] <IchGucksLive> iv herred about 240 inthe US some cities
[18:18:05] <A2Sheds> they started changing over to mostly wye in the 80's since it's easier to balance loads
[18:18:24] <Loetmichel> A2Sheds: contrary to the US the power in germany is mostly routed undergrount into the houses
[18:18:28] <Loetmichel> -t+d
[18:18:51] <A2Sheds> 240V in the US would only be 2 pole delta
[18:19:35] <A2Sheds> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/High_leg_delta_transformer.png/220px-High_leg_delta_transformer.png
[18:19:55] <Loetmichel> and even the few with power input by power poles and wires have three phase and NO transformer on the pole, instead it is nearly everywhere a ring cable from a transformer 10kV-> 230/400V three phase to the block
[18:22:02] <Loetmichel> A2Sheds: 2 pole delta isnt made in germany.
[18:22:08] <Loetmichel> Nowhere
[18:22:24] <A2Sheds> they phased it out here as well :)
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[18:22:45] <Danimal_garage> last big piece is up! i just gotta cut one 1 foot wide piece then it's done]
[18:23:24] <Loetmichel> i know it because i was electrican and the americans do it, but in germany you have 400V three phase + N+ PE everywhere, or 230V +n+pe single phase dreived from it
[18:23:49] <Loetmichel> derived
[18:24:33] <Loetmichel> and: THATS what a breakerboard should look like: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=3209
[18:24:55] <Loetmichel> not like the american ones ;-)
[18:24:56] <A2Sheds> you'll only see >240 here in an industrial/commercial service
[18:25:30] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=3200 <- cable salad ;-)
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[18:25:44] <A2Sheds> Siemens makes load centers here as well
[18:25:48] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=3203 <- same camera position ;-)
[18:26:48] <Loetmichel> ah, just for information: that is/was the breaker board of my Flat
[18:26:56] <Loetmichel> not an industrial one ;-)
[18:27:20] <A2Sheds> whats the typical residential circuit current limited at 20A?
[18:28:09] <Loetmichel> s/flat/ apartment
[18:28:14] <Loetmichel> 16A
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[18:29:29] <A2Sheds> 16A x 230V = 3680 W vs US 15A x 115V = 1725
[18:30:16] <Loetmichel> and a 3 phase RCD 0,03A for the whole appartment and a second one one phase for Bathroom/balcony plugs
[18:30:42] <Loetmichel> A2Sheds: correct
[18:31:10] <A2Sheds> 3 phase would not even be available for residential unless you wish to pay $10K for your own transformer
[18:32:24] <A2Sheds> or maybe in a high rise building apartment/condo
[18:34:37] <Loetmichel> over here its nearly EVERY building, even the farmhouse somwhere VERY out of everything
[18:35:15] <Loetmichel> like i said, maybe about 5 to 10% old buildings are left with only one phase going in.
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[18:36:50] <Loetmichel> for example: this house here whre i live (4 appartements on 3 stories + souterrain) has a main circuit breaker of 125A 3 phase and every appartment has a circuit breaker of 3 phase 63A
[18:37:07] <Loetmichel> and it is build 1972
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[18:39:11] <Loetmichel> hmm, whats english for "in den pilzen"? ("in the mushrooms" but in german it means "far away, whre the mushrooms grow, and no civilisation is left")
[18:40:33] <A2Sheds> a similar house here would be a 200A 120/208 2-pole, 1 -phase main service with 3-4 100A 120/208 panels for each unit
[18:41:40] <cradek> Loetmichel: can you give an example of how it's used?
[18:41:59] <A2Sheds> 'in the sticks' here
[18:42:17] <cradek> yeah maybe that's equivalent
[18:42:29] <A2Sheds> sticks, boonies, woods, etc
[18:42:29] <cradek> I wasn't coming up with anything, hoping an example would give me an idea
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[18:43:16] <A2Sheds> I'm out in the cornfields
[18:43:17] <cradek> none of those mean a wasteland though - if it's where civilization has been ruined, none of them really mean that
[18:43:54] <Loetmichel> yeah, that sounds fitting
[18:44:25] <Loetmichel> no, it meant "somewhere out where civilisation has never com to" ;-)
[18:44:42] <cradek> ah yes, then those are perfect
[18:45:10] <cradek> I've never heard cornfields, but sticks/boonies yes
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[18:45:37] <Jymmm> TimBucktwo
[18:45:48] <Jymmm> BFE
[18:45:57] <A2Sheds> what we called it in the city, now I literally have corn growing around me
[18:46:13] <cradek> yeah I was thinking of BFE but it's on the crude side
[18:46:38] <Loetmichel> i have a friend who lives "out in the sticks" in an old farmhouse ... about 20km from the next settlement. Even him has 3 phase 230/400V
[18:46:51] <Loetmichel> ... and a landline ;-)
[18:47:11] <A2Sheds> a farm would be able to get 3 phase pretty easily out here
[18:47:16] * Jymmm has been to timbucktwo.... population 20
[18:48:09] <Jymmm> and I thinkthey were counting the dogs twice
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[18:49:03] <A2Sheds> you apply for a new electrical service by providing the power co with a 'Load Letter' that lists all the loads in the structure, motors, A/C etc and they decide on what transformer/s you are on
[18:49:05] <Loetmichel> A2Sheds: its NOT a farm. just an old farmhouse renovated and about 1000 sq metres garden around it. deep in the woods, what was formerly Wheat fields and now is wild grass
[18:49:51] <Loetmichel> Jymmm: lokks like some small towns in the east of germany
[18:50:12] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: This was in the middle of BFE
[18:50:19] <A2Sheds> the power co's here would not want to invest in a 3phase transformer here, they would ask you to pay for it
[18:50:36] <danimal_laptop> i live in BFW
[18:50:52] <Jymmm> w?
[18:50:58] <danimal_laptop> west
[18:51:10] <A2Sheds> you can install a 1000A service on your house but the power co will only supply you with they decide
[18:51:22] <A2Sheds> with what they decide
[18:51:22] <Loetmichel> since the borders are opened and east and west germany are joined ther are more and more "ghost towns" in the east whre teh young had gone to the big cities and the old have moved to the cemetrys over time...
[18:51:43] <danimal_laptop> lots of land out here, i think the biggest lot is a whopping 8,000 square feet
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[18:52:07] <Loetmichel> what means BFE?
[18:52:09] <Jymmm> danimal_laptop: LOL, that lots of land huh?
[18:52:17] <Loetmichel> BFW
[18:52:28] <danimal_laptop> for san diego, yea lol
[18:52:43] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=BFE
[18:53:02] <Jymmm> oh yeah, boonies
[18:53:07] <Loetmichel> Jymmm: ah, i see. self explanatory
[18:53:08] <Loetmichel> ;-)
[18:54:02] <Jymmm> danimal_laptop: Yeah, no thanks, I want more like 8 acres, not 8K SF
[18:54:24] <Jymmm> though 2 acres would be fine
[18:54:25] <danimal_laptop> same here, but i also want the weather
[18:55:18] <Jymmm> Yeah, I've been keeping track of the WX on my phone for several places lately
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[18:56:13] <Jymmm> danimal_laptop: While not acreage, check this out... http://karencovey.actris.mlxchange.com/DotNet/Pub/EmailView.aspx?r=130165808&s=AUS&t=AUS
[18:56:32] <Jymmm> danimal_laptop: It has it's own WATER PARK and GOLF COURSE for $160K
[18:56:34] <A2Sheds> Danimal_garage: rough day there again? 60's and sunny?
[18:56:37] <danimal_laptop> you can get land here, however it's expensive, or in the sticks
[18:56:49] <danimal_laptop> A2Sheds: a little overcast but yea, 60's
[18:57:08] <Jymmm> danimal_laptop: http://tours.tourfactory.com/tours/tour.asp?t=787818&idx=1 give it time to load
[18:58:01] <danimal_laptop> $500 HOA fees
[18:58:07] <danimal_laptop> thats a rape job
[18:58:08] <Jymmm> a year
[18:58:21] <danimal_laptop> i'd never live in an HOA area
[18:58:23] <danimal_laptop> ah
[18:58:31] <danimal_laptop> thats better, but HOA's suck
[18:58:41] <Jymmm> danimal_laptop: It has a 4 acre WATER PARK aka Raging Waters
[18:58:56] <Jymmm> included in the cost of the HOA fees
[18:59:21] <Jymmm> Yeah, I think so too.
[18:59:41] <Jymmm> and on golf course too
[19:00:09] <danimal_laptop> doesnt matter, i'll be damned if i let someone tell me i can't work on or wash my car in the driveway, or do what i want with the exterior of my house or yard'
[19:00:35] <Jymmm> Oh, I do understand.
[19:01:35] <danimal_laptop> we once got a notice in the mail because we brought the garbage can out a day early because it smelled like fish
[19:01:46] <danimal_laptop> and it was behind my car so noone could even see it
[19:01:55] <Jymmm> heh
[19:02:05] <danimal_laptop> i moved out of that place...
[19:02:13] <Jymmm> Seattle 36 and raining... fsck me
[19:02:18] <danimal_laptop> haha
[19:02:31] <Jymmm> danimal_laptop: zipcode?
[19:02:46] <danimal_laptop> here? 92027
[19:04:11] <Jymmm> Hmmm, we're both the 57 and cloudy
[19:04:19] <danimal_laptop> it's overcast, it's 60 out
[19:04:34] <danimal_laptop> 60 at my house, according to the car
[19:05:48] <Jymmm> Yeah, I just added your area it'll be funny to watch.
[19:06:03] <Jymmm> STL is WAY OUTTA the picture!
[19:06:32] <Jymmm> Highest suicide rates I hear
[19:06:37] <Jymmm> due to the WX
[19:06:39] <Danimal_garage> yea
[19:07:03] <Jymmm> Just hearing about it makes me want to kill myself!
[19:07:19] <Danimal_garage> i cant stand crappy weather
[19:08:09] <Jymmm> Well, I can't stand a 50yo 2br/1ba house going for $650,000 either
[19:08:50] <Danimal_garage> lol
[19:09:09] <Danimal_garage> my house is a 3br 2ba and it was far less than that
[19:09:20] <Jymmm> how old?
[19:09:27] <Danimal_garage> 1971
[19:09:49] <Danimal_garage> built better than new houses
[19:09:58] <Jymmm> Danimal_garage: Well, that one I linked to is less than 10yo
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[19:10:45] <Jymmm> Danimal_garage: I'd prefer nothing older than 1980, I think all the asbestos and lead paint are out of the picture then
[19:10:55] <Danimal_garage> i have neither
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[19:13:54] <Danimal_garage> new houses arent built very well
[19:13:59] <Danimal_garage> for the most part
[19:14:10] <Danimal_garage> cheap fixtures and whatnot
[19:14:11] <Jymmm> Yeah, nothing is anymore.
[19:15:42] <Danimal_garage> the last house i lived in was built in 1999 and 2 sinks cracked, the toilets werre all screwy, the bathtub was cracked, the hot water heater went, and the overall build quality wasnt very good. the foundation was cracked as well
[19:15:55] <Quack> sup sup
[19:16:26] <Danimal_garage> my water heater is from 1991
[19:16:31] <Danimal_garage> hey
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[19:26:20] <Quack> yeah danimal your water heater shouldn't be expected to last past 10 years
[19:26:48] <Quack> my parents bought a house in 1995 and the water heater finally went a couple years back and flooded the garage
[19:26:48] <Jymmm> 10 years?! you crazy!?
[19:27:00] <Quack> ?
[19:27:34] <Jymmm> You know how much it costs to replace a water heater these days? they have to have it inspected for BS anymore
[19:27:50] <Quack> ?
[19:27:54] <Quack> i don't know actually haha
[19:27:57] <Quack> my parents paid for it
[19:28:50] <Jymmm> must now be raised n inches above floor, on a gold stand, special drainage pan, blah blah blah
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[19:29:14] <skunkworks> Fastened to the wall...
[19:29:26] <Jymmm> skunkworks: well, that I understnad
[19:29:32] <Jymmm> as well as flex pipe
[19:29:47] <Quack> they have to have a aluminum pan under em now too
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[19:30:07] <Quack> kinda silly because that aluminum pan's not gonna catch all 40 gallons when it finally does break
[19:30:11] <pcw_home> In earthquake country a strap is a pretty good idea
[19:30:18] <Quack> yeah the strap is a good idea
[19:30:26] <pcw_home> Our pan has a drain
[19:30:29] <Quack> the flex pipe is the best thing to be honest
[19:30:36] <Quack> it's great, all the plumbers i talk to swear by em
[19:30:47] <pcw_home> thats probably in the code
[19:30:53] <Jymmm> it is
[19:30:59] <Quack> oh
[19:31:09] <Quack> well i live with a plumber (rent a room from)
[19:31:23] <Quack> he says when he installed his own water heater recently he chose the flex pipe thing
[19:31:25] <Danimal_garage> i keep waiting for it to go
[19:31:32] <Quack> don't wait
[19:31:35] <Danimal_garage> it still has good capacity though
[19:31:36] <Quack> replace it pre-emptively
[19:31:46] <Jymmm> Danimal_garage: tankless
[19:31:57] <Quack> tankless?
[19:32:02] <Danimal_garage> Jymmm: yea probably
[19:32:13] <Quack> i'd go with one of those newer ones that has solar hot water fittings already
[19:32:24] <Jymmm> tankless on-demand water heaters are awesome
[19:32:37] <Jymmm> younever run out of hot water EVER!!!
[19:32:39] <Danimal_garage> last piece of drywall is hung, time to finish wiring!
[19:32:45] <Quack> wow that's pretty cool
[19:32:50] <Danimal_garage> Jymmm: i'd never get out of the shower
[19:32:58] <Quack> i remember i took a business trip to hong kong and all the places had tankless water heaters
[19:33:03] <Danimal_garage> it usually takes cold water to get me out
[19:33:12] <Jymmm> Danimal_garage: exactly =)
[19:33:28] <pcw_home> And they dont waste energy just keeping hot
[19:34:03] <Quack> yeah but then you can't do the solar hot water thing
[19:34:07] <Quack> which does save the earth
[19:34:26] <Jymmm> Quack: So does thermal heating
[19:34:35] <Quack> that's true too
[19:35:01] <Jymmm> Quack: They shove a plstic pipe down 160ft in the ground and recirculate water for HVAC, or whatever,
[19:35:15] <Quack> is it always warmer under ground?
[19:35:17] <Jymmm> stable 62F iirc all year long
[19:35:30] <Quack> haha 62F isn't warm
[19:35:36] <Quack> i guess it is if you live in canada
[19:36:10] <Loetmichel> hrhr
[19:36:10] <Jymmm> Quack: Well if it's 98F outside, 62 sounds good. And if it's 45 outside 63 sounds a whole lot better
[19:36:22] <Quack> yeah so true lol
[19:36:41] <Quack> solar hot water is awesome though, i really wanna upgrade my parents house with it
[19:36:53] <Quack> it would only cost about $700 or so
[19:37:09] <Jymmm> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_heating
[19:37:27] <Jymmm> Quack: Solar is a great idea, when you have sun.
[19:37:52] <Loetmichel> Quack: if you are a plumber you can even do it fpr near nothing
[19:37:56] <Jymmm> Quack: But what % do you have sun in a year?
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[19:38:42] <Loetmichel> just some old radiators painted black and enclosed in glass mounted on the roof does the trick
[19:38:43] <Spida> solarthermal doesn't need clear skies as much as photovoltaic does
[19:38:48] <Quack> i'm not a plumber but i'm sure i can do it without buying a license or some shit
[19:38:59] <Loetmichel> + some piping , a thermal exchanger and a pump ;-)
[19:38:59] <Quack> i live in san diego or at least my parents do
[19:39:03] <Quack> so they should get sun all year round
[19:39:37] <Quack> actually those evacuated tubes can collect a shitload of heat even on cloudy and freezing days
[19:39:48] <Quack> you'd be surprised
[19:39:59] <Quack> but in san diego you don't need evacuated tubes
[19:40:14] <Loetmichel> i wouldnt
[19:40:17] <Jymmm> I like the geothermal better, constant all year long
[19:40:27] <Quack> Loetmichel, is the thermal exchange method better or the direct circulation method better?
[19:40:28] <Loetmichel> i hav buiold some solar water heaters myself
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[19:40:50] <Quack> like should i circulate the water directly or use glycol or someshit and exchanger
[19:41:19] <Loetmichel> Quack: direct circulation states the risk of leginella
[19:41:40] <Loetmichel> if there is much trapped water and not enough heat
[19:41:51] <Loetmichel> so i would prefer the heat exchanger method
[19:42:01] <Quack> ahhh ok
[19:42:06] <Quack> that's gonna cost a bit more
[19:42:10] <Loetmichel> no
[19:42:13] <Quack> unless i can fabricate my own heat exchanger
[19:42:16] <Quack> from copper pipe
[19:42:34] <Loetmichel> just an old boiler, some copper pipe and a bit of soldering/welding
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[19:43:02] <Quack> do you drill a hole in the top of the water heater (40 gallon is what my parents have) and pop the heat exchanger in?
[19:43:26] <skunkworks> dad just started heating thier water with the outside wood furnace. Found a water to water heat exchanger. Gets it up to temp pretty darn quick
[19:43:52] <Quack> brilliant but wood furnace is kinda outdated
[19:44:14] <skunkworks> maybe - but when you have your own forest.. heat is free.
[19:44:17] <Quack> tell him to use solar hot water heating!
[19:44:33] <Quack> oh....
[19:44:46] <Quack> well solar is more hassle free
[19:44:55] <Loetmichel> skunkworks: last year i heated my poll with about 300 feet of black plastic pipe thrown on the garage...
[19:45:03] <Quack> won't have to go and keep feeding the heater with wood
[19:45:06] <Loetmichel> this year o got the grill out... ;-)
[19:45:11] <Loetmichel> pool
[19:45:38] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12271
[19:45:43] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12274
[19:45:54] <Loetmichel> ... works like a charm ;-)
[19:46:32] <Quack> why does it go in your grill
[19:46:39] <Loetmichel> s/garage/garage roof
[19:47:20] <Loetmichel> Quack: 'cause i live in germany and wanted a WARM pool ;-)
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[19:47:43] <Quack> oh you're german
[19:47:47] <Quack> i thought french
[19:48:07] <Quack> what does "heiz" mean?
[19:48:17] <Loetmichel> heating
[19:48:50] <Loetmichel> heizen actually
[19:48:51] <Quack> cool i just looked it up on goog translate and it says "heatable" lol
[19:49:03] <Quack> heiz = adjective?
[19:49:11] <Quack> heizen = noun?
[19:49:14] <Loetmichel> no, just a lazy typist ;-)
[19:49:30] <Loetmichel> heizen= verb
[19:50:02] <Quack> ahh ok thx
[19:50:07] <Quack> trying to learn deutsch
[19:50:12] <Loetmichel> ah, i see
[19:50:34] <Quack> my grandmother actually went to a german school in the US
[19:51:03] <Loetmichel> fyi: geheizt = adjective= heated
[19:51:06] <Quack> they actually had bilingual german/english elementary schools in some places before the war
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[19:51:20] <Quack> i'm sure those kind of lost popularity later on
[19:51:35] <Loetmichel> chant think of a reason why ;-)
[19:51:37] <Loetmichel> cant
[19:51:53] <Quack> well who knows. german is not the easiest language to begin with
[19:52:01] <Loetmichel> it isnt
[19:52:15] <Quack> actually it's probably one of the hardest in the world
[19:52:17] <Loetmichel> but far easier for a englishman than chinese for example
[19:52:29] <Quack> i find chinese easier to be honest
[19:52:49] <Loetmichel> interesting
[19:52:54] <A2Sheds> are you a musician Quack?
[19:52:58] <Loetmichel> the wife of my boss is chinese
[19:52:59] <Quack> yeah why?
[19:53:07] <A2Sheds> the tones
[19:53:10] <Quack> ahh yeah chiense is a fun language to learn
[19:53:31] <Loetmichel> i am trying to get some mandarin into my head: isnt easy at ALL
[19:53:32] <Quack> yeah i play piano
[19:53:50] <Quack> the tones i think i got pretty quickly
[19:54:20] <A2Sheds> sure, my daughter has perfect pitch, she picked up mandarin in a snap
[19:54:38] <Quack> speaking is one thing but understanding it is another
[19:54:40] <A2Sheds> I still struggle with picking up the tones
[19:54:46] <Quack> i can speak it really well but i can't understand someone else
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[19:56:07] <Quack> Loetmichel....for the heat exchanger, do you recommend that I open a hole in the top of the water heater?
[19:56:07] <Loetmichel> Quack: out of curiosity: is there a phonem in german that is similar difficult for english speakers that the "th" for the germans is?
[19:56:33] <A2Sheds> there are a few
[19:56:44] <Quack> hmm...
[19:56:48] <Quack> let me think
[19:56:56] <Loetmichel> Quack: no, but a pressure relief valve cant hurt ;-)
[19:57:19] <Quack> well where do i insert the exchanger in a "normal" 40-gallon tank?
[19:57:38] <Loetmichel> oh, now i see what you mean.
[19:58:24] <Loetmichel> is tha tank filled wiht fresh water and the heating fluid is cirulating through it?
[19:58:52] <Quack> you know i do have trouble with that the "pf" sound like "hupf" because i guess my lips stick together
[19:58:56] <Loetmichel> or is it filled with heating fluid and the fresh water is in a pipe circuilating in it?
[19:59:13] <Quack> not sure Loetmichel haha
[19:59:58] <Quack> my parents' tank is filled with fresh water
[20:00:04] <Quack> and there is a heater underneath it
[20:00:09] <Quack> this is how most water heaters in the US work
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[20:01:12] <Loetmichel> ah, i see
[20:01:37] <Quack> http://www.butlersunsolutions.com/solar-water-heater
[20:01:55] <Loetmichel> here in germany there is a third variant: big tank of water/fluid. on top inside a pipe coil with fresh water
[20:02:00] <Quack> this is what one company recommends for a heat exchanger. they somehow insert the heat exchanger from the top
[20:02:16] <Quack> wow that's a really good idea actually
[20:02:21] <Loetmichel> and then descending coils every 10" or so for heater fluid
[20:02:38] <Loetmichel> so you can heat the tank in "levels"
[20:03:35] <Loetmichel> that calls for a central warm water heating of the house of course
[20:03:53] <Loetmichel> so you have warm heating water to "charge" the tank
[20:04:25] <Loetmichel> in this tanks you can simply use the bottom heating coil for solar
[20:04:26] <Quack> haha not sure i get it
[20:04:43] <Loetmichel> just a moment, google
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[20:05:41] <Loetmichel> http://www.krumbein.de/pro/schichtenspeicher/im/funktionsweise.jpg
[20:05:46] <Spida> ttp://www.junkers.com/de/de/produkte/technik/speicher/funktionsprinzip_8/funktionsprinzip_7.html
[20:07:04] <Loetmichel> Quack: WW means warm (frehsh) water
[20:07:14] <Loetmichel> kw means cold fresh water
[20:07:45] <Quack> oh i think i see how it works
[20:07:46] <Loetmichel> kvl: from (oil/gas) heater
[20:08:00] <Loetmichel> krl: TO heater
[20:08:01] <Quack> depending on how much sun you have it can circulate deeper in the tank
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[20:08:16] <Loetmichel> SRL to solar
[20:08:28] <Loetmichel> svl from solar
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[20:09:02] <Loetmichel> hvl/hrl to/from Room radiators
[20:09:21] <Loetmichel> Quack: exactly
[20:09:48] <Quack> if the sun is very HOT it will circulate deep in the tank to exchange more heat
[20:09:50] <Loetmichel> so the top where the heat exchanger for the fresh water is is hot all the time
[20:09:56] <Quack> or am i wrong
[20:10:10] <Loetmichel> you are right
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[20:10:25] <Loetmichel> so you charge more water up to the myx temp
[20:10:29] <Loetmichel> max
[20:10:42] <Loetmichel> and have more energy stored
[20:10:47] <Quack> wow what a cool design
[20:12:03] <Loetmichel> the water in the tank is just energy storage
[20:12:08] <Loetmichel> it nver leaves the tank
[20:12:34] <Loetmichel> any heat going in/out of the tank goes through heat exchangers
[20:13:16] <Quack> that's a really cool design
[20:13:24] <Quack> but it depends on the cold water always being constant
[20:13:42] <Quack> if suddenly your cold water source was 10 deg colder than normal, it might not come out so hot
[20:13:46] <A2Sheds> Junkers, didn't they make airplanes?
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[20:14:01] <Loetmichel> you can even heat your house with solar on a cold but sunny winter day
[20:14:16] <Quack> i am falling in love with solar evacuated tubes
[20:14:48] <Loetmichel> yeah, but since the gernam water supply is about 1-2 meters deep in the ground it has about the sam temperature every time
[20:15:06] <Loetmichel> even in sibiria the permafrost is only 80cm deep ;-)
[20:15:07] <Quack> where do germans get their water?
[20:15:39] <Quack> is it from fresh water sources or from de-salinated ocean water?
[20:16:03] <A2Sheds> Germany has proven that solar works well on a national scale, the US is so messed up
[20:16:19] <Loetmichel> like any other country: a mix out of open river dams, river shore filtrate, deep grond wells and so on
[20:16:22] <Quack> yeah and germany is so far north lol
[20:16:38] <Quack> much of the US has a lot more sun
[20:17:59] <Loetmichel> Quack: as we have very short coastline : no, i dont know of ANY desalinate facility in germany
[20:18:01] <Quack> god Germany is so well managed
[20:18:09] <Loetmichel> ... other tan on ships
[20:18:22] <Quack> oh ok
[20:18:29] <Loetmichel> Quack: dont ask germans, they wont agree ;-)
[20:18:37] <Quack> Angela Merkel seems to be "the man"
[20:18:46] <Quack> everyone respects her, even the young kids
[20:18:56] <Quack> oh really......haha
[20:19:01] <Loetmichel> may look like it from the outside but we have our own problems here ;-)
[20:19:49] <Quack> i still can't believe all these austerity measures in greece and ireland, etc.
[20:19:57] <Quack> and now italy
[20:20:04] <Quack> that's really stupid n fucked up
[20:20:11] <Loetmichel> angie is a good girl and very competent, but sometimes i whish there would be someone with more "fist on the dest hammering" if you know what i mean
[20:20:22] <Quack> ahh ok
[20:20:31] <Loetmichel> desk
[20:20:59] <Quack> basically these austerity measures are gonna cause the young ppl to pay for the idiocy of the last few generations
[20:21:05] <Loetmichel> or like our ex-chancellor gerhard schrder had put it: "BASTA!"
[20:21:05] <Quack> (as if they weren't already gonna pay)
[20:21:06] <Loetmichel> ;-)
[20:21:07] <A2Sheds> maybe next time they won't gamble with derivatives
[20:21:32] <Quack> if i were a young person in ireland i wouldn't want to pay for some gambling idiots failures
[20:21:54] <Quack> we're already paying for it here in the US but to a lesser extent
[20:21:58] <Loetmichel> Quack: as i see it ireland hat managed that crisis great
[20:22:15] <Quack> well so far, they haven't complained one bit about it
[20:22:24] <Loetmichel> ... no saying the same of greece
[20:22:37] <Quack> that's only because ireland is a nice place for global companies to setup shop
[20:22:40] <Quack> especially american companies
[20:22:53] <Quack> that's why ireland's youth should be seeing job growth sooner or later
[20:23:00] <Quack> that's why you don't see rioting in ireland
[20:23:51] <Quack> well for greece, what can yo do
[20:24:02] <Quack> they are much better off not going back to the drachma
[20:24:10] <Loetmichel> Quack: thats more because in greece the retirement age is about 60 years, a third of the state employees cashes in but never shows up for work and so on.
[20:24:22] <Quack> lol that's nuts
[20:24:32] * Loetmichel would also be rioting if my government would try to cut these priviledges
[20:24:43] <Loetmichel> it is
[20:25:06] <Loetmichel> but it is also true
[20:25:40] <Loetmichel> the greek have a long tradition of exploiting every hole in the laws
[20:26:11] <Quack> yeah that's true
[20:26:35] <Loetmichel> and now as they are getting the bill they are rioting because the government has gotten harsh constraints for the bailout
[20:26:59] <Quack> i just feel bad because the greek youth seem so promising
[20:27:13] <Quack> but the older greeks have been lazy for years
[20:27:28] <A2Sheds> Loetmichel : did any of the derivative trading that Greece was involved in get mentioned in the news there?
[20:27:41] <Loetmichel> not that i know of
[20:27:51] <Quack> i didn't know greece was involved in derivative trading
[20:27:52] <Loetmichel> but i am not a news guy
[20:28:26] <mrsun> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DIY-CNC/photos/album/1186692065/pic/list not so bad =)
[20:28:27] <Loetmichel> i dont read a newspaper on a dayly bais
[20:28:30] <Loetmichel> basis
[20:28:30] <mrsun> might require login tho :po
[20:28:40] <Quack> doesn't work mr.sun
[20:28:54] <Loetmichel> mrsun: requires login
[20:29:11] <Quack> Oh wow, to be informed you do need to receive a newspaper daily
[20:29:13] <mrsun> aw .. i just logged in with my google account =)
[20:29:36] <Loetmichel> Quack: i also dont listen to tv much
[20:29:41] <Quack> interesting
[20:30:00] <Loetmichel> just the news at the full hour in the radio on my way to work and back
[20:30:05] <Quack> i'd probably be a better scientist if i listened to current events less
[20:30:07] <mrsun> http://i44.tinypic.com/24q8v1e.jpg
[20:30:08] <mrsun> there =)
[20:30:28] <Loetmichel> mrsun: old trick ;-)
[20:30:35] <mrsun> ahh =)
[20:30:37] <Quack> that seems precarious
[20:30:37] <mrsun> first time i saw it =)
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[20:30:52] <Quack> 3 cylinders
[20:31:07] <Loetmichel> Quack: it isnd
[20:31:09] <Loetmichel> isnt
[20:31:18] <Quack> wow that's interesting
[20:31:52] <Quack> i guess if the pressure on each side is all the same it should be ok
[20:31:59] <Loetmichel> its the only chance to get the hole alinged to the tooths
[20:31:59] <Quack> due to symmetry
[20:33:05] <Loetmichel> because the wahsers on the side and the hub are not necsessary alinged withe the teeth
[20:33:50] <Quack> Are you a machinist at work?
[20:34:31] <Loetmichel> no, electronican
[20:34:44] <Loetmichel> but i CAN work on a lathe
[20:34:47] <Loetmichel> ...and a mill
[20:34:53] <Loetmichel> .. and a welder
[20:35:01] <Loetmichel> ... and with wood tools
[20:35:04] <mrsun> =)
[20:35:08] <Loetmichel> ... and with concrete
[20:35:11] <mrsun> an avarage joe =)
[20:35:11] <Loetmichel> ... ;-)
[20:35:19] <Quack> i can weld too
[20:35:32] <Quack> with the argon arc welding system
[20:35:38] <Quack> with tungsten electrode
[20:35:49] <Quack> i really want to learn lathe and mill
[20:35:51] <Loetmichel> ic can do wig, mig,mag, and gas
[20:36:04] <Quack> wig?
[20:36:08] <Loetmichel> ehrm oxygen/acetylen
[20:36:08] <Quack> is that' like Tig?
[20:36:11] <Loetmichel> tig
[20:36:14] <Loetmichel> in english
[20:36:18] <Quack> W = tungsten
[20:36:26] <Loetmichel> tungsten= wolfram
[20:36:29] <Loetmichel> in german
[20:36:34] <Quack> oh that's where it comes from
[20:36:59] <Quack> the W on the periodic table
[20:37:07] <Loetmichel> yes
[20:38:33] <Quack> i can do Mig but that's harder for me
[20:38:47] <Quack> but welding is not that fun forme
[20:38:55] <Quack> that's why i want to learn machining as well
[20:39:12] <Loetmichel> i've done worktime as a plumber, as an electrican, roof guy, bricklayer, "woodworm" , car repair, computer service, showrental-"roadie" and so on
[20:39:38] <Loetmichel> so i have quite a set of skills ;-)
[20:39:47] <archivist> experience
[20:40:16] <Quack> that's badass
[20:40:30] <Quack> i hope i can become more than just a welder and electonician
[20:40:38] <Loetmichel> no, just a big mouth and a thick head ;-)
[20:40:49] <Loetmichel> and no fear of new jobs
[20:41:43] <Loetmichel> also: no fear of odd constructions ;-)
[20:42:26] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=4935 <- the third CNC-mill i have build for an ex boss
[20:42:50] <Loetmichel> yes, the frame is entirely made of plywood ;-)
[20:43:17] <Quack> hahaha
[20:43:21] <Quack> isn't that more a router?
[20:44:00] <Loetmichel> it can move about 60" by 40" by 6,3"
[20:44:15] <Loetmichel> yeas, router is also right
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[20:44:38] <Quack> is it for wood mainly?
[20:45:10] <Loetmichel> no, Glassfibre, carbon fibre, aluminium, plywood, you name it
[20:45:20] <Loetmichel> but for sheets, mainly
[20:46:10] <Quack> ahhh ok
[20:47:01] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/MC/yaschixcp.avi <- 1,2mm carbon fibre
[20:48:14] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/MC/balsakopter_fraesen.avi <- balsa wood
[20:49:17] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/MC/jumpjetkopterteile1.avi <- aluminium tube 10 by 10 mm
[20:50:33] <Quack> wow that's cool
[20:50:37] <Quack> you're making a jumpjet
[20:50:41] <Quack> =p
[20:50:54] <Loetmichel> no, the person io made the parts for is nicked jumpjet
[20:51:25] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=5290
[20:51:46] <Loetmichel> that is the end product
[20:52:28] <Loetmichel> quadrocopter-chassis
[20:53:48] <Quack> wow that's cool
[20:53:53] <Quack> for radio control heli
[20:54:36] <Loetmichel> more or less ;-)
[20:55:01] <Loetmichel> it has gps, so it can move on its own ;-)
[20:55:44] <Quack> wow that's TIGHT
[20:57:10] <Loetmichel> not my developement
[20:57:24] <Loetmichel> i am just a happy customer fpor the electronics
[20:57:24] <Quack> ahh ok gotcha
[20:57:30] <Quack> alright well i gtg eat lunch
[20:57:43] <Quack> do you make CNC kits btw?
[20:57:47] <Loetmichel> i make just the mechanics for some friends
[20:58:02] <Loetmichel> i try to, but not much spare time
[20:58:13] <Quack> ahh ok
[20:58:19] <Quack> guess i'll keep looking around locally
[20:58:43] <Loetmichel> i am developing a 600mm by 400mm by 100mm router CNC controlled which i want to sell for less than 1000 euro
[20:58:57] <Loetmichel> ready to run exept the Computer
[20:59:40] <Loetmichel> but at the moment only the base plate is finished:
[21:00:10] <Quack> i'll buy one
[21:00:11] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=8884
[21:00:18] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=8872
[21:01:56] <Quack> cool rig
[21:02:01] <Quack> great for doing basic gantry routing
[21:02:02] <Loetmichel> if i find some time to build the portal and the z-axis i will update the photos ;-)
[21:02:09] <Quack> i need something like that as well
[21:02:14] <Quack> k
[21:02:19] <Quack> talk to you later Michel
[21:02:32] <Loetmichel> i will go to bed now ;-)
[21:02:45] <Quack> guten nacht
[21:02:49] <Loetmichel> -n
[21:02:56] <Loetmichel> gute nacht
[21:03:08] <Quack> ahhh ok lol thx
[21:03:20] <Loetmichel> np
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[21:11:35] <ve7it> Loetmichel, that is an interesting spindle in those videos... what is it?
[21:12:59] <Loetmichel> ve7it: its a ISEL (now Proma) MA2.05
[21:13:34] <Loetmichel> more or less a pimped 2 pole 3 phase motor 500W
[21:13:53] <ve7it> run by vfd?
[21:13:59] <Loetmichel> yea
[21:14:01] <Loetmichel> yes
[21:14:08] <ve7it> very nice
[21:14:08] <Loetmichel> as seen on hte photo
[21:14:27] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=4935
[21:14:39] <Loetmichel> sitting above the sindle
[21:14:43] <Loetmichel> spindle
[21:14:50] <Quack> so geil
[21:15:00] <Quack> so fuckin geil
[21:15:14] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=7299
[21:15:21] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=7296
[21:15:30] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=7287
[21:15:49] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=7284
[21:15:55] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=7275
[21:16:33] <ve7it> looks like about er11 collect system turned onto a standard motor shaft
[21:16:39] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=4669
[21:16:42] <Loetmichel> right
[21:17:02] <Loetmichel> but a elongated motor shaft
[21:17:10] <Loetmichel> and better bearings
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[21:18:39] <ve7it> nice... I have been thinking of using a nice motor I salvaged out of a front load washing machine.... rated 16000rpm but I need to hack the controller as it only knows about spin/wash cycles!
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[21:19:52] <andypugh> What sort of motor is it? I think they are often brushed permanent magnet.
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[21:22:10] <ve7it> 3 phase with a single board microcontroller power stage
[21:22:42] <Loetmichel> ve7it: the ma2.05 runs up to 24krpm
[21:23:13] <andypugh> synchronous or asynchronous?
[21:23:20] <Loetmichel> after modified with better bearings (full ceramic, NOT Cheap!) i've gone over 40krpm
[21:23:30] <Loetmichel> async
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[21:24:02] <ve7it> I would love to reverse engineer the micro as the devel software is available and there are tons of these in the dump.... the washing drum spindle breaks due to corrosion issues
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[21:25:20] <andypugh> I have a curious problem with my synchronous motor. It can get into a position where it spins fast in the wrong direction (with the PID maxed out) until I lower the max current, when it reverses and sorts itself out. I assume that max motor speed is rather higher than the servo thread can handle.
[21:26:07] <andypugh> (The servo thread is calculating rotor angle and hence the phase currents)
[21:27:02] <odiug> Loetmichel: Nice machine! So it does not need to be Aluminium all the time. 8-)
[21:27:26] <Quack> god i want to visit his shop
[21:28:09] <Loetmichel> odiug: surprisingly: the "wood" isnt quite so bad: its very stiff, its dampening vibrations and its relatively cheap and light
[21:28:47] <Loetmichel> you just have to know some good static construction
[21:29:01] <Loetmichel> like boxing the gantry and the baseplate
[21:29:12] <odiug> I know. My very first try into CNC was with something built out of MDF. But it had just drawer slides.
[21:29:21] <Loetmichel> look here, tahts the inside of the baseplate:
[21:29:30] <odiug> Yes, I see that you attached something to the sides to make it stiffer. Good!
[21:29:30] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=4053
[21:29:48] <odiug> Wow
[21:30:25] <odiug> You are discussing it in Peter's CNC Ecke? I should have a look again there.
[21:30:44] <Loetmichel> thats about 300kg of "siebdruckplatte" , i downt know what it is called in english, its 22mm thick plywood, glued/sealed with melamin instad of white glue
[21:30:56] <Loetmichel> so it is nearly waterproof
[21:30:59] <odiug> <= also German
[21:31:10] <andypugh> That base looks well arranged for a vacuum hold-down
[21:31:13] <Loetmichel> odiug: i had... a long time ago
[21:31:38] <odiug> OK, didn't saw yours yet
[21:31:51] <Loetmichel> andypugh: its just rigged for stability
[21:32:14] <andypugh> Yes, you said, but it would also suit a porous-top vacuum system.
[21:32:33] <Loetmichel> there is a plate over this... and about 1000 wood (spax) screws 5mm by 50mm in it
[21:32:40] <odiug> I currently "only" have a Kompas H-300 which has only 30x20cm working area. So I am always looking how I can imrpove
[21:32:58] <andypugh> I have seen a scheme where you just use the inherent porosity of MDF and things stick to it
[21:33:06] <Loetmichel> odiug: urks, kompas.
[21:33:16] <odiug> You know it?
[21:33:32] <PCW> andypughYou can always run the thread faster and see if that changes things
[21:33:36] <Loetmichel> that that with the fre swinging 16mm round steel for a gliedeway?
[21:33:51] <odiug> Ehem, yes. 8-)
[21:33:52] <Quack> I <3 Michel
[21:34:14] <odiug> But because it is so small, it is not that bad.
[21:34:38] <Loetmichel> andypugh: like this? http://www.cyrom.org/hajo/vakuumFEST.avi
[21:34:56] <Loetmichel> (made it myself for the new router of my ex-boss)
[21:35:01] <Loetmichel> some photos:
[21:35:11] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=8211
[21:35:14] <andypugh> Yes, just like that :-)
[21:35:16] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=8214
[21:35:20] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=8217
[21:35:59] <Loetmichel> the top plate is 5mm mdf, just planed over from both sides a few thou to open the pores
[21:36:50] <Loetmichel> and yes, tahts me in the video ;-)
[21:37:06] <odiug> So you are planning to offer a kit for a machine in the future? (I saw above)
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[21:37:07] <andypugh> You need to work on moving more fluidly :-)
[21:37:25] <Loetmichel> ?
[21:37:46] <Loetmichel> odiug: yes, but not anytime soon ;-)
[21:38:51] <odiug> I was considering the machine from Mixware once. But I wonder if it would be more fun to built something my own.
[21:39:03] <Loetmichel> andypugh: my apprentice called me a hectic today. did you mean that?
[21:39:49] <Loetmichel> odiug: depending on your wishes for a machine: i can only suggest to buy the team-Haase AL series
[21:39:58] <Loetmichel> if you are in germany
[21:40:15] <Loetmichel> (like the AL1065 in the vacuum-video)
[21:40:24] <Loetmichel> and go for the pro-variant
[21:41:04] <odiug> Already quite a lot of money for a hobby.
[21:41:16] <anonimasu> cnc is not a chep hobby...
[21:41:19] <Loetmichel> not really CHEAP, but the best price/endurance ratio you get in the hobby market
[21:41:34] <Spida> Loetmichel: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=9071 <- that was at jetpower?
[21:41:44] <Loetmichel> yes
[21:42:35] <anonimasu> PCW: any chance of you having the part numbers for the dsub/idc connector stuff for 7i40?
[21:42:57] <anonimasu> or know what to write on the order form if i want to order that from you?
[21:44:05] <Loetmichel> Spida: that was the company i worked for
[21:44:13] <Loetmichel> and i build the CNC for
[21:44:52] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=9077&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 <- the right one was my boss
[21:47:31] <Spida> http://www.spida.net/pictures/Veranstaltungen/2011/Jetpower/
[21:52:20] <Loetmichel> hmmm
[21:52:31] <Loetmichel> timo b. sagt mir irgendwas...
[21:54:30] <odiug> Even near where I am living.
[21:55:38] <Danimal_garage> sweet! touch screen just got here
[21:57:38] <Spida> Loetmichel: there is somebody in the mikrocopter forum with that name that is not me.
[21:57:49] <Loetmichel> ah
[21:57:52] <Loetmichel> there
[21:57:53] <Spida> Loetmichel: even though I fly quadrocopters.
[21:57:54] <Loetmichel> ok
[22:01:07] <odiug> Spida: Nice pictures from Garzweiler.
[22:03:39] <Spida> thx
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[22:05:33] <Spida> this is the kind of stuff I am flying: http://www.spida.net/tmp/quadcopter_241.jpg
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[22:06:32] <Loetmichel> my newest work in progress: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12037
[22:07:31] <Loetmichel> and the one i am building fpr a friend: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=11789
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[22:15:29] <Spida> Loetmichel: whats the difference in weight for the alu-rods with the triangled holes as opposed to no holes? (for the whole copter, ready to fly)
[22:21:58] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=5311
[22:22:05] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=5314
[22:46:46] <PCW> anonimasu DB9F-IDC-ENC-L where L is feet in length
[22:51:25] <andypugh> Loetmichel: Sorry, was away. No, it was just a comment about the jerky video.
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[22:53:09] <andypugh> Loetmichel: Do you have a source for custom motor stators?
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[22:56:58] <MattyMatt> andypugh there's a hackerspace in london with a lasercutter
[22:57:23] <MattyMatt> and the shapercube people have a waterjet
[22:57:50] <MattyMatt> they're in germany, and not in #reprap atm, but will be
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[22:58:08] <andypugh> After being quoted £400 for a set of motor stators earlier in the week, a local transformer company cut some coated silicon steel to size and gave me it. OK, so I still need to machine it into shape, but I am conceptually up £400 so far :-)
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[22:58:42] <MattyMatt> coated with varnish to insulate betwen laminae?
[22:58:47] <andypugh> Indeed.
[22:59:27] <MattyMatt> I want to make a hollow stepper myself if & when
[22:59:34] <andypugh> I will probably just mill and file. (ponder, 12 poles, 30 lamellae, that might be boring.
[22:59:49] <MattyMatt> MT2 in a 20 coil 5 phase or sth :)
[23:00:15] <andypugh> Am I right in thinking that LRK is basically the Vernier principle applied to motors?
[23:00:35] <MattyMatt> the teeth on the stators?
[23:02:27] <MattyMatt> LRK?
[23:04:20] <Danimal_garage> yay, wiring's done!
[23:05:23] <andypugh> LRK winding is popular in model aeroplane circles.
[23:06:16] <andypugh> I have one blackened (aluminum oxide) and slightly blistered finger after an evening spent trying to tune my servos.
[23:06:19] <Quack> hi Mr. Pugh
[23:06:49] <Quack> what does LRK mean
[23:07:04] <Danimal_garage> you were sanding your servos to tune them?
[23:07:07] <andypugh> It was a chap, or three chaps.
[23:08:07] <andypugh> Danimal_garage: No, just braking/twisting the pulley to try to get a feel for where the torque was balanced. One of the tricky things is working out the alignment of the resolver to the field coils.
[23:09:08] <Quack> having my 4:00pm tea ANdy
[23:09:11] <andypugh> Quack: http://www.southernsoaringclub.org.za/a-BM-motors-3.html
[23:09:20] <Quack> some good ol irish breakfast
[23:09:35] <andypugh> Whiskey?
[23:10:14] <Quack> lol
[23:10:17] <Quack> no i just drink tea
[23:10:26] <andypugh> Ooh, ooh, Talking about Irish... my boat is in the lead: http://www.clipperroundtheworld.com/index.php/follow/race-viewer/
[23:10:45] <Quack> you own a boat?
[23:10:58] <Quack> or you mean the boat you're betting on?
[23:11:12] <andypugh> No. The boat I am getting on when it gets to Chia.
[23:11:15] <andypugh> (China)
[23:11:25] <Quack> WHy are you getting on it?
[23:11:27] <Danimal_garage> andypugh: how's it coming out?
[23:11:29] <Quack> Are you in China now?
[23:11:32] <Danimal_garage> tuned yet?
[23:11:34] <andypugh> To go to America
[23:11:42] <Danimal_garage> Amurica*
[23:11:46] <andypugh> No, I am in the UK.
[23:12:18] <andypugh> Plenty of time to fly to China, the boats won't be there until March
[23:12:18] <Quack> lol I don't get it
[23:12:35] <Quack> You're going to get on a boat, as in physically step on the boat?
[23:12:37] <Danimal_garage> are they rowing?
[23:13:11] <MattyMatt> when the wind is blowing them onshore >:)
[23:13:13] <andypugh> Danimal_garage: Well, one of my crewmates has already rowed across the Atlantic and Indian Oceans. But she's just mad.
[23:13:36] <MattyMatt> are you allowed oars in a sailing race?
[23:13:46] <Danimal_garage> nice
[23:13:55] <andypugh> Quack: Yes, it's a round-the-world yacht race. I am part of the crew for part of the race.
[23:14:04] <Quack> holy crap.....wow
[23:14:10] <Quack> so you know your way around a sailboat
[23:14:19] <andypugh> MattyMatt: No, we asked. No oars.
[23:14:45] <andypugh> Quack: Only 68ft of it, hard to get lost :-)
[23:17:03] <Quack> lol well yeah that's still a big boat
[23:17:14] <Quack> and besides i meant like you know how to work a boat
[23:17:43] <MattyMatt> either you're an expert or a winchman
[23:18:13] <MattyMatt> I was tempted to apply to be a winchman once, but I'm 45 now. I better admit I'll never be in that condition again
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[23:21:24] <andypugh> MattyMatt: Anyone can do that race. And are you sure you are 45? I have been 45 all year until I did the maths earlier this week...
[23:21:28] <MattyMatt> how long to cross the pacific then? that's a fair stretch
[23:21:42] <andypugh> 5 weeks
[23:22:25] <MattyMatt> ah cool, that's just enough to call it all holiday :)
[23:22:54] <MattyMatt> 5 months and I'd be eating the snorers
[23:23:18] <andypugh> Ah, I see you have a computationally trivial birthdate, unless Wiki has been confused.
[23:24:52] <andypugh> Yes, I reckon that it is costing the same as 5 back-to-back weeks of skiing too.
[23:25:45] <MattyMatt> aviemore or italian alps? I found skiing very reasonable 30 years ago
[23:26:43] <MattyMatt> I wrote manic miner directly after returning last time. I like mountain air
[23:28:22] <MattyMatt> and I've sailed a dinghy. I'll take the skiing myself :)
[23:29:59] <andypugh> Dinghy sailing is a little dull, I have done very little of it. I like to be going somewhere, and having a destination. I rather like ski-touring (where you ski up the hills, and down the other side) for much the same reason.
[23:30:24] <Tom_itx> the open ocean isn't as crouded either
[23:31:05] <andypugh> No, apparently they have seen no boats at all between Cape Town and NZ.
[23:31:28] <Tom_itx> it might be nice to know _someone_ is out there though
[23:32:34] <Tom_itx> you can't be gone too long though, pcw and the rest of us will need you i'm sure
[23:32:47] <andypugh> It is a real pity this photo basically didn't come out. In focus it would have been stunning. That's a 90' mast, by the way: http://www.clipperroundtheworld.com/assets/Uploads/QDPB070439.jpg
[23:33:26] <Tom_itx> in comparison, we have the america's cup boat here on display although that was several years back now
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[23:34:53] <andypugh> The Edinburgh boat is being semi-shadowed by HMS Edinburgh, who are on a similar trip. The grey one crept up on them one night in the south Atlantic, then turned on their light and said "Hi"
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[23:36:13] <MattyMatt> heh :) good test of nerves for all
[23:36:41] <Tom_itx> heh
[23:36:57] <Quack> Sup Tommy, you got an ITX board?
[23:37:02] <Quack> mini-ITX*
[23:40:17] <Tom_itx> was there a hint somewhere?
[23:41:36] <emcrules_d510> andypugh: how exactly does the encoder/rotor alignment work in BLDC
[23:43:06] <andypugh> It's technical.
[23:43:34] <andypugh> Actually, that's a euphonium for "I don't really know"
[23:43:38] <emcrules_d510> im having the same problem you are. Thats ok i understand drive very well
[23:43:43] <Tom_itx> doesn't the motor use the encoder to 'align' the phase timing?
[23:44:23] <andypugh> Tom_itx: Yes, but there are many ways to do it.
[23:44:58] <Tom_itx> i was reading about that a bit the other day. is there a tutorial or something that explains how to align them right?
[23:45:07] <andypugh> emcrules_d510: I spent much of this evening deciding whether 60, 70 or 80 was my optimal "encoder-offset" for one particular motor.
[23:45:12] <Tom_itx> i saw your gray code stuff the other day with the different patterns
[23:45:21] <emcrules_d510> Im making a fixture so i can tune the motor under load without smashing stuff
[23:45:52] <Tom_itx> andypugh is there a proper way to do it?
[23:45:53] <andypugh> With limit switches and f-error limits, it ought to be manageable on the real hardware.
[23:46:18] <Tom_itx> you mention in the code to try a few to find the best one but how do you know when you got it?
[23:46:36] <andypugh> Tom_itx: The ideal way is to home to a Hall-sensor or Gray-code edge.
[23:47:18] <emcrules_d510> andypugh: not the way this motor is acting. it aligns fine with low p and current on the drive set low but other than that it's all over the place
[23:47:36] <Tom_itx> with no documentaton is it just trial and error to match the gray code pattern?
[23:47:56] <Tom_itx> you've got like 47 or 48 patterns in the code i think
[23:49:37] <andypugh> Tom_itx: For Hall patterns you will find one or two that work properly (ie, spin the motor at low current) both of those are valid, and are just mirror images (and run in different directions). At high currents you might find other code which give some torque and can skip the "miss-es" but they are no practical use.
[23:50:18] <andypugh> Tom_itx: Yes, but you can switch them on-the-fly with halcmd setp, so it probably easier than studying the docs.
[23:50:22] <Tom_itx> so you will be able to tell for sure when you find the right pair
[23:50:40] <andypugh> emcrules_d510: Yes, I have been finding the same thing.
[23:50:42] <Tom_itx> i don't have any yet but i was looking at it the other day
[23:51:20] <andypugh> emcrules_d510: I am probably no more than a month ahead of you on this, in real terms. I am only a relative expert.
[23:51:42] <PCW> I didn't mess with the Hall the magnetic alignment works fine for me (I thin Matt shaver is using the Halls on his spindle application however)
[23:51:45] <emcrules_d510> Thats why im making a fixture i want to simulate the inertia of an axis to see how the motor behaves
[23:51:50] <Tom_itx> andypugh as long as your are one step head, you are the expert
[23:53:09] <Tom_itx> are hdd motors bldc?
[23:53:16] <PCW> you do realize the 8I20 is a torque mode drive so NEEDS D term (the PID loop is doing the velocity loop as well)
[23:54:11] <emcrules_d510> D term causes a whole bunch of instability
[23:54:28] <Tom_itx> maybe P is too high then
[23:54:47] <PCW> You need both or no-go
[23:54:53] <emcrules_d510> Been there
[23:55:03] <andypugh> emcrules_d510: What I think happens is that you hit a stable resonance between servo period and the mechanical factors, and end up with a very fast antiphase drive. If you cut the current limit to very small value (ie, 0.2A on my 7.5A max drives) then the motor reverses. My assumption is that the motor slows, breaks the antiphase resonance, and goes back to normal operation. I would hope not to see this on a loaded motor.
[23:56:00] <emcrules_d510> Thats why im making the fixture. its very hard to tune this unloaded
[23:56:14] <andypugh> And tonight I went from Pgain 3 D 0 to Pgain 1000 D10 and it got better...
[23:56:17] <Tom_itx> emcrules_d510 what are you gonna load it with?
[23:56:25] <emcrules_d510> mass
[23:56:30] <Tom_itx> flywheel?
[23:56:41] <emcrules_d510> inertia match the motor
[23:56:45] <PCW> Thats pretty strange I had no trouble tuning a bare motor with 30A, (but 4 KHz servo thread)
[23:56:46] <andypugh> Yes, a flywheel sounds like a good start
[23:56:55] <PCW> Lots of D...
[23:57:20] <emcrules_d510> lots of d gave me a nema 23 size jack hammer
[23:57:28] <Tom_itx> haha
[23:57:43] <PCW> What is your servo thread rate?
[23:57:46] <Tom_itx> take P up to where it oscilates, back it off and add D
[23:57:53] <andypugh> PCW: Yes, but I have a stupid, cheapskate, Arduino resolver interface injecting noise. :-)
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[23:58:50] <andypugh> Tom_itx: Actually, for me taking P up to oscillation and adding D until it went away worked.
[23:59:24] <PCW> If D make you oscillate you have too much phase shift (are you possibly using these CUI encoders?)
[23:59:40] <PCW> makes
[23:59:44] <Tom_itx> tuning each system will vary. i don't have experience with anything big but i did make a balance bot with PID