#emc | Logs for 2011-11-05

[00:01:14] <PCW> bbl
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[00:25:12] <FinboySlick> I must say that things are a lot easier without uClibc :P
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[01:17:05] <elmo40> FinboySlick: you have that correct. now if they could eliminate libc6... one version doesn't like the other and I broke many a systems 'upgrading' >_<
[01:25:56] <elmo40> going for training next week :) http://qurl.org/EH1
[01:26:02] <elmo40> should be fun
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[01:31:23] <FinboySlick> elmo40: Canadian company?
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[01:35:22] <elmo40> yes
[01:35:40] <elmo40> the training facility is, but GibbsCAM is american.
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[01:47:24] <andypugh> Seems a big deal for machining just the tapered strips for slideways :-)
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[01:52:01] <SadMan> i'm trying to figure out this mesa cards stuff, does e.g. having parport one (7i43?) help with latency somehow?
[01:52:09] <SadMan> they're not doing interpolation, right?
[01:54:08] <andypugh> No, they just make steps at a constant rate for 1mS at time.
[01:54:43] <andypugh> You can get away with _slightly_ worse latency, but not a lot worse.
[01:54:59] <SadMan> that's for parport or pci too?
[01:55:17] <andypugh> As the next 1mS set of pulses has to be there when needed
[01:55:27] <andypugh> Both, yes.
[01:55:51] <SadMan> so what's the big deal with them?
[01:55:58] <SadMan> besides the ton of io, pwm, ...
[01:56:04] <andypugh> The real advantage is less CPU load and a lot more pins
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[01:59:52] <SadMan> and what's the advantage of pci one over parport then?
[01:59:53] <andypugh> Example pin-list from 5i25 and 7i76 that I produced earlier today: http://www.linuxcnc.org/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,20/func,view/catid,39/id,4522/limit,6/limitstart,60/lang,english/#14582 That is <$200 of hardware for a _lot_ of pins.
[02:02:06] <andypugh> PCI is faster, though it rarely matters. It used to be that the 7i43 was neater to cable (1p-port lead from the computer to the electronics box) but the 5i25 has rather changed the game there.
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[02:04:19] <andypugh> But, all the new cards (7i69, 7i70, 7i71) can connect to a 7i43, as can the 7i64 and 8i20. There are not a lot of combinations that don't work, actually.
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[02:05:25] <andypugh> The 7i43 is great if you don't have a PCI slot, and you can actually get 768 IO pins from one if you really need to.
[02:05:59] <Tom_itx> really?
[02:06:11] <Tom_itx> how do you get that many?
[02:07:25] <ssi> yes, how? :D
[02:07:41] <andypugh> 7i43, 2x7i44, 16x7i64
[02:08:38] <Tom_itx> no timing issues?
[02:09:23] <Tom_itx> besides, who needs 700 io?
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[02:10:56] <pcw_home> The 7I64 is rather slow but 10KHz update rate is possible with 7I70/7I71/7I69 etc
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[02:11:27] <pcw_home> (with a PCi host adapter)
[02:11:51] <pcw_home> 7I64 probably limits you to 5KHz or so
[02:11:56] <andypugh> Pushing 700 pins through the parport might be a little slow.
[02:12:25] <pcw_home> Yep thats the bottleneck
[02:13:11] <pcw_home> maybe a KHz
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[02:14:27] <Tom_itx> you could bling up your christmas tree with it
[02:14:37] <pcw_home> we have a customer with a full blown SSERIAL config (32 channels)
[02:15:46] <pcw_home> Real time Christmas lights?
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[02:15:55] <Tom_itx> :)
[02:16:08] <andypugh> That's the full 1536 IO?
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[02:17:21] <andypugh> Though, unless I am mistaken, the actual hard limit (without a second base address, which I _think_ I supported) is 3072 bits?
[02:18:19] <pcw_home> 6144 (96x32 inputs, 96x32 outputs)
[02:18:49] <andypugh> Epic christmas lights, then.
[02:19:18] <pcw_home> Thers no particular reason that 4 is the max SSERIAL module limit either its just for decoding convenience
[02:20:28] <andypugh> Of course, you need to multiply that by PCI + parallel + PCIe, so 50k+ is conceivable. With _very_ deep pockets
[02:20:58] <IG-garage> there's nothing worse than those weird people who spell slowly and funny just any simple thing to look funny. some VJs speak this way
[02:21:40] <IG-garage> or kids who spill
[02:22:01] <Tom_itx> or try to use txting language
[02:22:03] <IG-garage> many things, it's a complex problem
[02:22:10] <Tom_itx> i flat out ignore that
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[02:22:52] <pcw_home> Actually what nice is that a lowly 7I43 or 5I25 can now easily expand its real time IO to >300 points
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[02:23:59] <pcw_home> It always seems such a waste to use FPGA pins as GPIO
[02:25:52] <andypugh> Have you looked at getting someone to do a Mach3 driver for 5i25? That + Geckos and/or 7i76 could make you quite happy.
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[02:33:11] <pcw_home> Ive though about it, Art Fenerty has played with a 5I20 just as I/O but was able to get a interrupt driven windows 5I20 driver
[02:33:13] <pcw_home> cobbled together in a really short so its a possibility, I just have no idea where to start if we needed to hire someone for this
[02:33:32] <pcw_home> short time
[02:36:57] <andypugh> Perhaps it isn't right to assume that the announcement of this hardware on their forum will lead to momentum towards a driver like it does here. There again, if it leads to momentum towards this platform thats a win for you and us.
[02:37:57] <Tom_itx> or a bunch of why give it up questions
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[02:38:52] <andypugh> Direct PCI - Gecko G540 has to be a ton better than Smoothstepper for those guys.
[02:39:09] <pcw_home> Must be getting pretty late in the British Isles
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[02:40:09] <pcw_home> I think the main advantage is the possibility of using the same hardware for both
[02:41:04] <andypugh> 0240, but nothing going on here this morning. Cable TV man due PM, then getting the 1916 Dennis ready to drive to Brighton at 0600 sunday.
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[02:41:48] <pcw_home> (Mach and EMC) (a fairly well known minimill co just ordered 5 5I25s)
[02:42:12] <pcw_home> How far a drive?
[02:42:24] <andypugh> 120 mile round trip
[02:42:52] <andypugh> So, we need a 100 mile service before and after.
[02:42:56] <pcw_home> Solve the main bearing troubles?
[02:43:04] <andypugh> Not sure....
[02:43:27] <Tom_itx> pack spare parts
[02:43:27] <Tom_itx> :)
[02:43:43] <jdhNC> I bought a 7i43 to use with my mill. Would a 5i25 be any better?
[02:44:09] <pcw_home> Well... yes
[02:44:13] <Tom_itx> newer
[02:44:13] <Tom_itx> pci
[02:44:41] <Tom_itx> no reason to toss out your 7i43
[02:44:54] <pcw_home> Its faster but has fewer current I/O options (and fewer I/O pins)
[02:45:03] <andypugh> 7i43 is perfectly good enough
[02:45:44] <pcw_home> One of our aims was to simplify cabling
[02:45:44] <jdhNC> I got a 7i37TA for half of it, is it usable with the 5i25?
[02:45:55] <pcw_home> No
[02:46:48] <pcw_home> The 5I25 is slightly funny in that it mimics a PC parallel port (same GND pin locations and same 17 IO per connector)
[02:47:03] <jdhNC> it's so cheap, it doesn't really matter
[02:48:24] <andypugh> pcw_home: You hear that? Raise prices!
[02:49:10] <Tom_itx> iirc they weren't posted anyway for that one were they?
[02:49:10] <Tom_itx> maybe they are now..
[02:50:07] <pcw_home> we used the DB25 and parallel port pinout this so we can use the excellent and cheap IEEE1284 cables
[02:50:09] <pcw_home> and also be compatible with other parallel port connected devices
[02:51:22] <pcw_home> We cheat and use 1/2 the GND pins for routing 5V power to the daughtercards
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[02:54:28] <pcw_home> This works better than we expected because even with the thin (28 Gauge) wire in the cable, there are not 4 (1/2 the GND pins)
[02:54:29] <pcw_home> but rather 8 or 9 wires for the 5V (and a similar number for GND).
[02:54:31] <pcw_home> This is because in a IEEE1284 cable, each of the 17 signals wires has a twisted pair GND
[02:55:06] <jdhNC> is that true for generic cheap cable?
[02:56:00] <andypugh> With generic cheap cable you are lucky to get a wire for every pin
[02:57:20] <jdhNC> how did you arrive at the switch?
[02:57:41] <pcw_home> I dont know These are pretty cheap (we sell for $10 or 12.50 for 6 or 10 Ft so you know we dont pay much)
[02:58:50] <andypugh> Is your pricing deliberately 5-for-the-price-of-4?
[02:59:30] <andypugh> I only noticed when someone on CNCzone decided on 5x8i20 rather than 4
[02:59:46] <pcw_home> The switches give us 5V tolerance (both for I/O and PCI) and also disconnect the I/O when the computer is off (so you dont reverse power your PC through the FPGA protection diodes if you have external signals driving the card)
[03:00:36] <pcw_home> Yeah theres a pretty steep 1X markup
[03:00:42] <Tom_itx> pcw_home i was gonna ask you about that on the 7i43 if the parport is connected with no board power what happens?
[03:02:16] <pcw_home> No harm. But be careful with external (not from PC) 5V power and live plugging the parallel port
[03:02:18] <pcw_home> often floating 5V supplies have considerable capacitance to the line voltage
[03:02:45] <Tom_itx> i'm using the usb for now, i just wondered
[03:02:57] <FinboySlick> Hmmm, any potential advantage in EMC to have hardware support high-resolution timer?
[03:04:24] <Tom_itx> i've got a few of these i may use eventually http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/misc_stuff/5v_switcher.jpg
[03:04:30] <andypugh> FinboySlick: Probably not. As the saying goes "A man with a watch always knows the time, a man with two watches is never sure".
[03:04:46] <pcw_home> Isnt there a high resolution time in all newer x86 CPUs?
[03:04:54] <pcw_home> timer
[03:05:46] <FinboySlick> This Geode chip has a special Multi-Function General Purpose Timer that can be used as a high-res timer.
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[03:07:40] <pcw_home> Actually this is something of an issue Ive discussed with Sebastian about calibrating the hardware clock to EMCs TIC
[03:08:20] <FinboySlick> I'm thinking that if I can get this hardware to help instead of getting in the way, it might be worth a shot.
[03:11:42] <pcw_home> In our case the current stepgen system is not terribly tolerant of thread jitter
[03:11:44] <pcw_home> but in fact the hardware rate generator system should be very tolerant of jitter
[03:11:45] <pcw_home> it just needs to trut itsekf more than EMCs tic for short term corrections
[03:12:01] <pcw_home> trust itself
[03:12:18] <Valen> pcw_home: be nice if you gave a bit of a discount on "packages"
[03:12:22] <FinboySlick> pcw_home: Well, if you have patches in that respect you'd like me to test ;)
[03:12:35] <Valen> I'm about to start speccing stuff for a new set of mills ;->
[03:12:48] <pcw_home> No I just have hand wavings
[03:13:49] <Valen> 1x 5i23 and a pair of 7i40s etc ;->
[03:14:04] <Valen> oh and one of those io protector/driver doohickeys
[03:14:50] <pcw_home> Maybe you can get sales to give you a package discount if you buy 5 different cards
[03:15:37] <Valen> hows the brushless + emc stuff going?
[03:16:24] <pcw_home> Some people using EMC with both 7I39s and 8I20s (and we have some new drives in the works)
[03:16:59] * Valen is pondering using hobby brushless motors for drives
[03:17:13] <pcw_home> (thanks to Andys BLDC comp, TPPWM and SSERIAL work)
[03:18:31] <andypugh> I am planning to use a 7i39 with a home-built BLDC soon, that should be educational.
[03:18:41] <pcw_home> we will have a low voltage 8I20 like drive and a very small one using the DRV8432
[03:19:14] <Valen> my problem is you guys never have enough amps ;->
[03:19:48] <Valen> thats amps with an A
[03:20:13] <pcw_home> Yeah the low voltage 8I20 one will (maybe 50A peak)
[03:20:33] <Valen> thats alot of amps ;>
[03:21:03] <Valen> low voltage supplies seem to be easier to come across
[03:21:05] <andypugh> Is it enough for you>
[03:21:16] <Valen> probably in the ballpark
[03:21:22] <andypugh> I built a HV supply, it was easy
[03:21:34] <Valen> we are pushing ~20-30 through a 7i40 without issue
[03:21:38] <andypugh> Rectifier + caps = 300V DC
[03:21:56] <Valen> not everybody can be as dodgy as you and live andypugh ;->
[03:22:23] <andypugh> I have a crowbar relay and soft start. I am not a total cowboy
[03:23:15] <andypugh> https://picasaweb.google.com/108164504656404380542/Gibbs#5648659860476109218
[03:24:21] <Tom_itx> i think andy is up past his bedtime
[03:24:37] <Valen> whats the big resistor?
[03:24:39] <Tom_itx> nice clean wiring there
[03:24:52] <Tom_itx> bleed the caps on shutoff?
[03:25:05] <andypugh> Yeah, but I am trying to make someone's kinematics work.
[03:26:08] <andypugh> Yes, there is a relay that discharges the caps when the supply goes off, and another (with a timer) that charges them through another resistor on power-up so that my supply doesn't trip.
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[03:27:05] * Valen is planning something similar for his mill
[03:27:10] <Valen> 24v supply
[03:27:32] <andypugh> I resent being called dodgy, I am using bootlace ferrules, even!
[03:27:34] <Tom_itx> i'm wondering if 48 is pushing the limits on my steppers too far
[03:27:50] <Tom_itx> not online yet but i've got the parts
[03:28:46] <pcw_home> 48V?
[03:29:07] * Valen has a thought for pcw_home, given you have some large FPGA's on the PCI cards anyway, could one not use those for deadtime generation and make the driver boards just dumb fet drivers?
[03:29:25] <andypugh> The steppers are probably happy to a few hundred, it's the drives you need to worry about.
[03:29:32] <jdhNC> andypugh: do you have a cat?
[03:29:51] <pcw_home> Valen Already done take a look at TPPWM
[03:30:30] <andypugh> jdhNC: No, if I manage to electrocute myself, I am safe from being eaten by domestic pets.
[03:30:37] <Tom_itx> http://www.kelinginc.net/KL23H276-30-8B.pdf
[03:30:38] <Tom_itx> those steppers
[03:30:38] <Tom_itx> and either gecko 302v or something similar
[03:31:38] <Valen> pcw_home: how would i go about looking at that?
[03:31:41] <Valen> or rather where
[03:31:45] <Valen> first i've heard of it
[03:33:09] <andypugh> Tom_itx: "Rated voltage" has no bearing on insulation resistance, and anyway, at any given drive current the actual voltage between any two windings, or any winding and earth, is no more than the ohmic voltage, regardless of the drive volrage.
[03:33:44] <Tom_itx> andypugh i know but i used that stepper voltage calculator for it and it was near the upper limit
[03:34:05] <andypugh> Valen 7i39 is a completely dumb drive, I think.
[03:34:22] <pcw_home> Valen Its well hidden... download one of our card support zip files and in the configs/hostmot2/source directory in the HM2 zip file theres a file called REGMAP
[03:34:22] <Tom_itx> i'm currently using a 24v supply and they get considerably warm
[03:34:23] <pcw_home> it has a register level description of all the HostMot2 modules
[03:34:29] <Tom_itx> i can still touch them
[03:34:43] <pcw_home> They should be the same at 48V
[03:34:55] <Tom_itx> just limit the current to them
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[03:35:27] <pcw_home> The 7I39 has dead zone blanking and current limit but other than that its dump
[03:35:49] <andypugh> Tom_itx: That shouldn't significantly change with supply voltage, but you might want to turn the drive current down. There again, safe stepper temperature is well into the "serious burns" region I think.
[03:36:05] <Tom_itx> really?
[03:36:11] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/temp/cnc/psu1.jpg
[03:36:19] <Tom_itx> i've got 3 of those now i'm gonna build up
[03:36:39] <Tom_itx> all surplus stuff
[03:36:41] <pcw_home> Yeah step motor are current operated and with a modern drive, current and power dissipation should be voltage independent
[03:36:50] <Tom_itx> ok
[03:37:05] <Tom_itx> what about those digital drivers?
[03:37:11] <Tom_itx> are they any better than the others?
[03:37:24] <Tom_itx> chinese ones i'm referring to
[03:37:35] <pcw_home> Well except the drive power dissipation will go up very rapidly if you exceed its max spec
[03:37:40] <Tom_itx> under various names
[03:38:28] <andypugh> Tom_itx: A quick Google suggests that class B == 130C winding temperature. That would hurt plenty.
[03:38:28] <pcw_home> I dont have any experience with them so IDK
[03:38:34] <Tom_itx> me either
[03:44:22] <pcw_home> Thanks again for your driver work Andy (got a 7I76 and 7I71 blinking lights with 4 KHz servo thread at work will see if any errors come Monday)
[03:44:24] <pcw_home> Dont know how you do it but its hard for this old guy to stay up late anymore :-)
[03:44:25] <pcw_home> Nite all
[03:44:27] <pcw_home>
[03:44:33] <Tom_itx> nite
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[04:00:32] <andypugh> Yeah, time I slept.
[04:00:35] <andypugh> Night all
[04:00:45] <Tom_itx> night andy
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[04:10:22] <FinboySlick> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RQlikX4vvw <-- Wow, at last a christmas tale I want to see.
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[05:26:34] <Quack_> como estan amigos?
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[08:29:02] <Quack_> sup Valen
[08:29:07] <Quack_> how's your mill project coming along?
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[09:16:25] <Valen> slowly
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[09:42:16] <IG-garage> why slowly?
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[19:01:24] <Quack_> hi
[19:01:36] <Quack_> how's it going Valen
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[19:47:26] <maxster> good afternoon
[19:47:48] <maxster> any wisdom on setting up a 4 axis mini mill?
[19:48:53] <archivist> plenty, just ask the right questions when you need to
[19:51:53] <syyl> hrhr
[19:52:20] <archivist> irc works best with specific questions
[19:53:13] <syyl> or just for random chat...
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[20:15:33] <mrsun> is there any free cam software that supports 4 or 5 axis? :)
[20:18:55] <archivist> not a lot
[20:19:08] <maxster> that was of interest
[20:19:40] <maxster> the machine I just got came with a meshcam licence, but i preffer floss
[20:20:04] <maxster> meshcam does indexed 4th axis afaik
[20:21:05] -!- mhaberler [mhaberler!~mhaberler@] has joined #emc
[20:21:08] <maxster> archivist: the questions will come...
[20:21:27] <archivist> but look at aptos
[20:23:31] <archivist> mrsun, the dev for aptos/apt360 lurks in #cam
[20:25:40] <archivist> mrsun, the other free cam software is inside rear of skull :)
[20:31:29] <|n0b0dy|> nope that's just empty space to fill out the hat rack
[20:31:38] <|n0b0dy|> nothing of use there
[20:31:40] <|n0b0dy|> D:
[20:31:47] <|n0b0dy|> =D
[20:36:42] <archivist> skull coded http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAtziCsUj5Q
[20:37:42] <syyl> skull coded, too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQiB8H97EG4
[20:37:44] <syyl> ;)
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[20:38:17] <syyl> trigonometry IS usefull ;)
[20:39:34] * archivist demands patent royalties for slitting saw abuse
[20:40:06] <syyl> ;)
[20:40:10] <archivist> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adT8Dr5JZ4c&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
[20:40:12] <syyl> thats no abuse
[20:40:14] <syyl> *ducks*
[20:40:27] <syyl> oh
[20:40:32] <archivist> :)
[20:41:11] <syyl> thats nice :)
[20:42:03] <syyl> but i like the worm milling also :o
[20:43:24] <archivist> I wish I had a video of another worm I did http://gears.archivist.info/gears/p1010058_500.jpg
[20:44:26] <syyl> thats pretty slimm
[20:44:34] <DaViruz> http://co.marion.or.us/NR/rdonlyres/481BF728-146C-49E6-8C61-3D79ADD691F2/5465/worm.JPG
[20:44:37] <DaViruz> one of my worms
[20:44:38] <syyl> did you use a tailstock for support?
[20:45:32] <archivist> had a tail hole and support along the length
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[20:45:52] <|n0b0dy|> is that aluminum?
[20:45:53] <Quack_> hi
[20:46:05] <archivist> steel
[20:46:22] <|n0b0dy|> from a printer?
[20:46:24] <|n0b0dy|> :D
[20:46:27] <Quack_> IchGuck here
[20:46:37] <archivist> was for a clock
[20:47:06] <|n0b0dy|> but did you get the steel from a printer... on of their linear rods
[20:49:22] <archivist> no was a new bit of 4mm steel
[20:49:34] <archivist> set up pics for that worm http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2008/2008_10_07_p1010053_Merlin_worm/
[20:50:14] <archivist> 5th axis was a til vice :)
[20:50:18] <archivist> tilt
[20:51:23] <syyl> now..that setup looks special
[20:52:25] <archivist> "special"...cheap
[20:52:27] <syyl> but the result looks great
[20:53:27] <Quack_> you're making a screw?
[20:53:35] <Quack_> you're machining a worm screw?
[20:53:36] <archivist> 1st attempt without the rear support, one could hear problems during the cut
[20:53:40] <Quack_> err worm shaft
[20:54:17] <archivist> yes a replacement for a clock
[20:54:25] <Quack_> what mill is that?
[20:54:36] <Quack_> (damn that's pretty cool my grandma just asked to do something for her clock)
[20:54:43] <archivist> home made small bastard mill
[20:55:17] <Quack_> i can tell =)
[20:55:25] <Quack_> it says "Vertex" on it
[20:55:45] <archivist> just a bought in part
[20:56:04] <archivist> the spindle is from a lathe
[20:56:28] <Quack_> does the CNC work down to 1 thou?
[20:56:33] <Quack_> repeatable down to 1 thou
[20:56:41] <archivist> yes
[20:56:51] <Quack_> is that typical or the norm?
[20:57:30] <archivist> 1 thou is regarded as poor by some
[20:57:39] <Quack_> i see....
[20:57:51] <Quack_> do you think a typical hobbyist gantry router would achieve that tolerance?
[20:58:03] <syyl> if you are carefull, you can do most kind of works with 1thou
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[20:58:31] <archivist> learn your machines abilities and work within
[20:58:47] <Quack_> i just want something that can machine 20micron traces on a PCB
[20:58:52] <archivist> or program around to do better
[20:59:02] <Quack_> hmm ok
[20:59:41] <archivist> you need flatness and a good spindle for pcb
[20:59:51] <Quack_> can flatness be compensated for
[21:00:03] <archivist> and no backlash on x and y
[21:00:17] <Quack_> like can i program the x-axis to be a different height depending on the <x,y> position?
[21:00:26] <archivist> use the machine to fix flatness
[21:00:31] <Quack_> ahh ok
[21:01:14] <syyl> there are machines that can compensate flatness
[21:01:17] <archivist> or file and scrape to correct
[21:01:44] <syyl> datron measures the working area and pulls it straight by calculation
[21:03:05] <Quack_> i bet i can setup a Sable2015 to compensate for flatness
[21:03:14] <Quack_> but i'm still wondering if it has slop the guides
[21:03:20] <Quack_> i see no data on this
[21:03:42] <archivist> adjust guides
[21:04:02] <syyl> http://www.datron.de/index.php?id=21
[21:04:19] <syyl> there you can see height compensation via software
[21:04:26] <syyl> (it works in real life too ;) )
[21:04:53] <Quack_> it makes sense you just need one of those sensor tools
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[21:06:02] * mxstr is also maxster
[21:06:21] <mxstr> anyone know whast up with thee forum?
[21:07:08] <Quack_> oh datron is german company
[21:08:07] <syyl> jep
[21:08:16] <syyl> we have two of those in the shop
[21:08:23] <syyl> great machines to work with :)
[21:08:25] <Quack_> the whole datron or just the sensor head?
[21:08:34] <Quack_> oh the whole machine
[21:08:40] <syyl> two whole machines :)
[21:08:45] <Quack_> how much?
[21:08:50] <Quack_> $10k+
[21:09:34] <syyl> haha
[21:09:51] <syyl> €35k up
[21:09:51] <Quack_> $20k+?
[21:09:56] <Quack_> holy crap
[21:10:25] <syyl> you can get the price easy behind 100k with accessories ;)
[21:12:05] <Quack_> i better just get a cheap router for doing PCB stuff
[21:12:15] <Quack_> this is getting pricey ~
[21:12:33] <syyl> that machine is also only a glorified router ;)
[21:12:52] <syyl> i did pcb millign on a normal knee mill
[21:12:58] <syyl> worked out fine
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[21:13:15] <syyl> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24396704/port4_1.jpg
[21:13:25] <syyl> with a 3000rpm spindle
[21:15:47] <syyl> it just takes long...
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[21:48:01] <|n0b0dy|> archivist so you got that spindle from a lathe? the yellow bracket and all?
[21:48:34] <|n0b0dy|> using bracket loosely... the yellow vertical holder
[21:51:29] <anonimasu> datron is net machines but i would call them good routers :p
[21:52:57] <anonimasu> as for that 1thou being poor it's true.. the edm guys talk about a few um's for accuracy all day long
[21:52:57] <skunkKandT> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzvIH3aFR5Y
[21:53:25] <syyl> edm is for people with no creativity ;)
[21:54:03] <syyl> "aaaah, that cant be milled or ground, lets go for edm"
[21:54:59] <anonimasu> wire edm = coffee break machines ;)
[21:55:10] <anonimasu> setup and go have coffee for 20 hours
[21:55:29] <syyl> hrhr
[21:55:30] <|n0b0dy|> skunkKandT your vid?
[21:55:44] <syyl> like most jobs we do on the datron machines..
[21:55:53] <syyl> programm, setup, go home...
[21:56:04] <|n0b0dy|> Laughing Out Loud
[21:56:06] <syyl> next day its maybe finished ;)
[21:56:21] <anonimasu> my big mill is not like that at all, stand at the lathe in the back listen for broken inserts
[21:56:40] <syyl> hr, thats different
[21:57:04] <anonimasu> but 20x5mm deep pocketing in steel gears is kindof a typical job
[21:57:27] <anonimasu> 20mm stepover :)
[21:57:47] <|n0b0dy|> :p
[21:57:55] <|n0b0dy|> feed rate?
[21:58:10] <syyl> that are typical parts for me..
[21:58:11] <syyl> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24396704/2011-09-15_07-56-16_3.jpg
[21:58:15] <anonimasu> 420mm/min
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[21:58:24] <anonimasu> (2 insert cutter)
[21:58:35] <skunkKandT> |n0b0dy|: no
[21:58:42] <skunkKandT> random youtube video
[21:58:48] <anonimasu> with the solid carbide it's like 600mm/min at 5k/rpm for roughing
[21:58:53] <|n0b0dy|> you dont cast them anonimasu?
[21:58:53] <anonimasu> 0.06mm/flute
[21:59:30] <anonimasu> most stuff is support machining making parts fit to machines
[22:00:17] <|n0b0dy|> Okay
[22:00:19] <|n0b0dy|> time to go
[22:00:30] <|n0b0dy|> ttyl...
[22:00:34] <anonimasu> like 2x of everything or 4x not more then thoose runs
[22:00:41] <|n0b0dy|> oic
[22:00:54] <anonimasu> still pays alot better to machine them in house as sending out is expensive
[22:01:13] <|n0b0dy|> + qc
[22:01:51] <anonimasu> most tolerances are about -0.05mm for most stuff
[22:03:37] <anonimasu> everyone around is complaining if i keep them tighter :)
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[22:18:15] <Quack_> anonimasu, which cnc router table would you get
[22:19:08] <Quack_> syyl tell me more about your pcb routing on a knee mill experiences
[22:19:22] <syyl> uhm
[22:19:26] <syyl> nothing special
[22:19:41] <syyl> took a piece of polyurethane foam, clamped it to the machine
[22:19:44] <syyl> milled it flat
[22:19:59] <syyl> glued the pcb with doubled sided tape to it
[22:20:28] <syyl> took a 60° singlepoint cutter
[22:20:54] <Quack_> wait you got a bport right?
[22:20:55] <syyl> 3000rpm / 100mm/min feed
[22:21:03] <syyl> no
[22:21:06] <syyl> way smaller ;)
[22:21:10] <Quack_> which one?
[22:21:38] <syyl> a heavylie modified deckel g2 engraver...
[22:22:06] <syyl> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24396704/2011-10-13_21-42-34_200.jpg
[22:22:10] <syyl> the machine on the right
[22:22:27] <syyl> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24396704/2011-10-19_21-00-37_535.jpg
[22:23:15] <Quack_> looks pretty sturdy
[22:23:25] <Quack_> why would you start with polyurethane? doesn't that give too much?
[22:23:48] <syyl> its a high density foam
[22:24:01] <syyl> normaly its used for prototyping
[22:24:16] <syyl> but i use it also as a sacrifical plate
[22:25:19] <Quack_> sick ass setup
[22:25:28] <Quack_> can you mill 50 micron traces?
[22:26:17] <syyl> should be possible
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[22:26:31] <syyl> last ones i did where 0,08mm wide
[22:26:38] <syyl> (measured with a microscope)
[22:26:41] <Quack_> damn that's not bad
[22:26:55] <Quack_> that's like a hair's width
[22:26:58] <Quack_> or 2 hair's width
[22:27:10] <Quack_> so does the deckel g2 come ready to accept g-code?
[22:27:26] <syyl> the machine is from '28 ;)
[22:27:37] <Quack_> holy crap
[22:27:38] <syyl> i converted it to work with emc..
[22:27:40] <Quack_> ancient
[22:27:48] <Quack_> did it come with stepper motors back in 1928?
[22:27:52] <syyl> no
[22:28:23] <syyl> ballscrews, steppers, new spindle head where done by me
[22:28:25] <Quack_> you're not not "madmodder" are you?
[22:28:38] <syyl> sure :)
[22:28:50] <Quack_> LOL
[22:28:56] <Quack_> i saw your website before
[22:29:26] <syyl> hehe
[22:29:39] <Quack_> are you stevan?
[22:30:06] <pcw_home> Andy: how did your trip to Brighton go?
[22:30:21] <andypugh> It's tomorrow at 0630
[22:30:21] <Quack_> what's that other machine you have to the left of the Deckel?
[22:30:35] <andypugh> I wouldn't have been up till 4am if it was today!
[22:30:38] <syyl> stefan, yes
[22:30:46] <syyl> its an swiss aciera f3
[22:31:18] <pcw_home> Oh good luck, sounds like fun
[22:31:26] <Quack_> are you in europe? these sound like european models
[22:31:32] <andypugh> Similar design to the Deckel, they both slide the head for Y. Which I think is a good plan.
[22:32:04] <syyl> yes ,germany
[22:32:10] <Quack_> damn i like that Swiss Aciera
[22:32:15] <Quack_> it looks like the perfect size for me
[22:32:16] <syyl> bavaria ;)
[22:32:17] <andypugh> (And means you can dangle huge things off the face of the table if you want)
[22:32:25] <Quack_> so you're german?
[22:32:29] <syyl> yes
[22:32:39] <andypugh> Aciera are lovely.
[22:32:40] <Quack_> bavarian is the same as prussian right
[22:32:54] <syyl> no, we have good beer ;)
[22:34:04] <andypugh> Look at the accessories selection on this tiny wee Aciera F1: http://www.lathes.co.uk/aciera/index.html
[22:34:05] <Quack_> how can i buy a used aciera
[22:34:19] <syyl> get a lot of money
[22:34:38] <Quack_> hahaha it's also a collectors item
[22:34:50] <syyl> yes!
[22:34:55] <Quack_> then i can't afford one
[22:35:00] <syyl> like a fully equipt deckel fp1
[22:35:53] <Quack_> it's cute
[22:36:12] <andypugh> Wow! They made a CNC F1, with a tape drive! http://www.lathes.co.uk/aciera/page5.html
[22:36:29] <syyl> yeah
[22:36:37] <syyl> and you can still get a technika uf280
[22:36:54] <syyl> which is allmost a german made "clone" of the aciera f1
[22:37:21] <syyl> http://www.technika-kehl.de/technikashop/product_info.php?info=p20_Universal-Fraesmaschine-UF-280E-10.html
[22:37:34] <cradek> andypugh: the control should not outweigh the machine...
[22:37:37] <syyl> friend of mine has one of them...
[22:38:28] <andypugh> TOS made a clone, pre-fitted with ballscrews, which looks nice.
[22:38:30] <Quack_> can sieg mill compete with the aciera
[22:38:41] <syyl> no way
[22:38:45] <andypugh> Only on price.
[22:39:02] <syyl> ok, price :D
[22:39:04] <Quack_> what can compete precision wise with that (at the similar weight)
[22:39:18] <syyl> mmh
[22:39:35] <andypugh> Deckel FP1 ?
[22:39:39] <andypugh> Equally expensive
[22:39:43] <Quack_> jesus
[22:39:45] <syyl> fehlmann
[22:39:51] <syyl> swissmade
[22:40:19] <syyl> all those "small" machines are expensive like hell :D
[22:40:50] <andypugh> Thiel, Shaublin, all made very similar machines. Lots of links here: http://www.lathes.co.uk/acieraf3/
[22:41:04] <syyl> sixis built also machines that small
[22:41:06] <syyl> maho
[22:41:40] <Quack_> syyl if i give you $2000 can you send one to me
[22:42:02] <syyl> uhm
[22:42:04] <syyl> no :D
[22:42:50] <Quack_> i'm talking about a used one
[22:42:58] <Quack_> heavily used
[22:43:44] <syyl> there was a deckel fp1 on ebay
[22:43:54] <syyl> it was in a shop that burned down to the ground
[22:44:09] <syyl> even the aluminum pulleys where molten
[22:44:30] <syyl> it was sold for 600€...
[22:44:49] <andypugh> I gave up trying to find one at a price I was prepared to pay, and ended up with a Harrison. That's about the same size, and not a bad machine: http://www.lathes.co.uk/harrisonmiller/page2.html
[22:44:56] <Quack_> holy crap.......damn
[22:45:05] <Quack_> is harrison also euro?
[22:45:09] <andypugh> Yes
[22:45:11] <Quack_> sounds irish
[22:45:19] <andypugh> Made in Halifax.
[22:45:29] <andypugh> Like my Sister
[22:45:44] <Quack_> jesus
[22:45:50] <Quack_> i doubt i am in the right area to get one cheap
[22:46:20] <syyl> but i think a bridgeport wouldnt be any worse than one of those machines..
[22:46:34] <Quack_> yeah but it's a lot heavier
[22:47:30] <syyl> or get a small/midsize horizontal milling machine and add a vertical head..
[22:47:39] <syyl> many options :D
[22:47:59] <Quack_> vertical head? what does taht do? you mean z-axis?
[22:48:48] <syyl> http://www.lathes.co.uk/harrisonmiller/img0.gif
[22:48:53] <syyl> thats a horizontal mill
[22:49:02] <syyl> http://www.lathes.co.uk/harrisonmiller/img5.gif
[22:49:06] <syyl> and thats a vertical head
[22:49:14] <syyl> so you get a "normal" milling machine
[22:49:57] <Quack_> a vertical head is just a drill press
[22:50:06] <Quack_> gotcha makes sense now
[22:50:11] <syyl> a bit different..
[22:50:36] <syyl> more sustancial, drawbar(long screw) to hold the tool, etc
[22:50:55] <andypugh> This might be a bargain, I think it is secretly CNC: http://www.ebay.com/itm/DynaMyte-4000-Milling-Machine-Reduced-10-11-/280753472485
[22:51:58] <Quack_> my budget is $6000 for everything
[22:52:00] <syyl> i like it
[22:52:04] <Quack_> including vices, bits, etc
[22:52:32] <syyl> but i would get a big cable cutter and stripp the electrics cabinet direct after arrival ;)
[22:52:32] <Quack_> my mom won't let me have that in the garage
[22:52:54] <syyl> tell her, its better for the car, if it stands in the outside...
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[22:54:08] <Quack_> hahaha
[22:54:20] <andypugh> pretty sure thtat is _not_ a Deckel FP3.. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Deckel-FP-3-Milling-Machine-Model-FP-3-/250911087893
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[22:55:34] <syyl> oh
[22:55:40] <syyl> thats special, andypugh
[22:55:42] <syyl> its a fp33
[22:56:02] <andypugh> I want it.
[22:56:08] <syyl> (in the early days it was called fp3)
[22:56:11] <syyl> me to
[22:56:16] <syyl> its build like a tank
[22:57:31] <andypugh> Quack_: How small do you want? http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Hardinge-BB-2V-Vertical-Mill-Jewelry-Watchmaker-Milling-Machine-Collets-/370552706781
[22:57:37] <syyl> http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b90/onrama/FP33.gif
[22:57:39] <Quack_> hopefully under 1000 lbs
[22:57:49] <Quack_> not that small
[22:57:50] <syyl> one hell of a machine ;)
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[22:58:05] <Quack_> it is?
[22:58:11] <Quack_> the FP33?
[22:58:43] <andypugh> The FP33 is Huge. The Hardinge BB is tiny.
[22:59:31] <syyl> the fp33 is a bit mythical...it seems that there where not to much of them
[23:00:48] <Quack_> so a bridgeport is garbage compared to these
[23:01:05] <syyl> different range of use
[23:01:38] <andypugh> Nothing wrong with a Bridgeport, if your mum will let you have one in the garage, go for one of those. Much easier to find, much cheaper.
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[23:01:52] <syyl> and nice features
[23:02:11] <andypugh> Preferably get a CNC one, converting is non-trivial
[23:03:43] <pcw_home> The Dynamite looks better deal (if it doesnt sink through your floor)
[23:04:12] <Quack_> http://www.ebay.com/itm/CNC-Bridgeport-2-HP-Knee-Mill-/310350626991?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item484256c0af
[23:04:24] <Quack_> Dynamite is better?
[23:04:36] <Quack_> hahaha my mom will not go for 4000 lbs equipment in the garage
[23:06:08] <andypugh> That Bridgeport is not a _lot_ smaller than the Dyna-Mite and they aren't brillliant machines (Big, hot, steppers)
[23:06:52] <syyl> how does that speed change on the head work?
[23:07:04] <syyl> varible speed belt drive?
[23:07:21] <syyl> via hydraulic?
[23:07:26] <syyl> Oo
[23:07:38] <JT-Shop> hand crank
[23:07:45] <Quack_> so is the tormach more modern with its steppers running cooler?
[23:07:53] <syyl> on that ebay-cnc-brideport
[23:07:55] <JT-Shop> or maybe not
[23:08:00] <andypugh> Though the dynamyte becomes bulky with the guards fitted, I guess.
[23:08:14] <syyl> seems there is a hydraulic drive on the variable drive Oo
[23:08:26] <andypugh> Yes, the Tormach is a lot more modern.
[23:08:44] <JT-Shop> electric motor on the variable drive
[23:09:10] <andypugh> JT-Shop: Got 10k spare? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Deckel-FP-3-Milling-Machine-Model-FP-3-/250911087893
[23:09:19] <pcw_home> Wonder why the motor cable are removed on the Dynamyte Z axis?
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[23:09:25] <JT-Shop> yea, sure but no room
[23:09:27] <pcw_home> cables
[23:09:56] <syyl> maybe for your interest
[23:09:57] <syyl> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24396704/FP3-0002.jpg
[23:10:16] <pcw_home> Pretty Hefty Servos on the Dynamyte
[23:10:33] <Quack_> Deckel <3
[23:10:38] <Quack_> sounds like the best company ever
[23:11:03] <Quack_> i only got $6k
[23:11:08] <Quack_> so really the tormach is out of my pricerange
[23:11:14] <syyl> there are always better machines ;)
[23:11:42] <Quack_> i need to get a used one
[23:13:03] <andypugh> An interesting feature of the Deckels is that they stand the operator in an unusual lace.
[23:13:06] <andypugh> (place)
[23:13:39] <andypugh> All the controls are in that corner where that photo shows him.
[23:13:42] <syyl> jep
[23:13:53] <syyl> thats the case on all deckel machines
[23:13:59] <Quack_> Deckels' put the the operator in a safer spot
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[23:16:16] <Quack_> what's the best "mini cheapo mill" i can get
[23:16:25] <Quack_> maybe i need to start off small
[23:16:30] <syyl> chinese milldrill
[23:17:06] <Quack_> which one is that?
[23:17:18] <Quack_> RF45?
[23:17:24] <syyl> yeah
[23:17:28] <syyl> something like that
[23:18:59] <andypugh> I have one. I wouldn't again.
[23:19:18] <syyl> really? friend of mine is pretty happy with his
[23:19:39] <Quack_> my. Pugh which would you get if you starting small
[23:19:51] <Quack_> (not super small but like a 1 HP size mill)
[23:20:37] <andypugh> Well, RF45 is apparently good (but not Chinese, Taiwanese). I have heard good things about Ru Fong
[23:20:44] <andypugh> Sorry, Rong Fu
[23:20:51] <Quack_> Ru Paul
[23:20:56] <Quack_> ahh ok hmm
[23:21:46] <andypugh> I have a cheap clone of a Sieg (yes, really)
[23:22:05] <syyl> sieg machines are cloned? :D
[23:23:03] <Quack_> lol
[23:23:08] <Quack_> andy how do you like it so far?
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[23:25:17] <Quack_> sieg x2 or x3 clone?
[23:27:04] <frankt> I've just downloaded the git source on a new machine, and when it compiles I get "Failed to remake makefile `Makefile'". Read the wiki, it points to "File `boost/mpl/if.hpp' does not exist". I'm guessing emc now needs boost? Any particular version? Synaptic suggest libboost1.40-dev.
[23:28:17] <cradek> http://git.linuxcnc.org/gitweb?p=emc2.git;a=commit;h=b2970f009743a268392793689b3b9c05ca6449db
[23:28:24] <cradek> libboost-python-dev?
[23:28:44] <andypugh> Quack_: I like my mini-mill so much I bought a Harrison..
[23:29:19] <Quack_> does that mean you didn't like it lol
[23:29:26] <Quack_> i'm confused
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[23:30:12] <andypugh> I have massively modified it, and then decided that the underlying machine is to poor that it was a waste of time. I have done some quite fun things with it though. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhICrb0Tbn4
[23:30:26] <syyl> oh
[23:30:29] <syyl> thats you?
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[23:30:42] <andypugh> Yes.
[23:30:43] <syyl> like that video :)
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[23:31:46] <Quack_> like his voice
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[23:32:44] <andypugh> For fun, turn on the automatic subtitles. They are hilarously wrong. (cc) -> transcribe audio
[23:33:55] <syyl> and then, for the grande finale, let it translate the subtitles to another language
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[23:34:22] <Quack_> how much did YOUR sieg x3 clone cost?
[23:34:43] <andypugh> It is a combined lathe/mill and I paid £900
[23:36:22] <andypugh> I paid £700 for the Harrison miller.
[23:37:04] <Quack_> harrison miller was used while the sieg x3 mill/lathe was new, am i correct?
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[23:38:23] <Quack_> your harrison has pneumatic chuck
[23:39:16] <andypugh> It has now, yes.
[23:40:26] <Quack_> so harrison miller is an older style machine
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[23:40:28] <Quack_> geez
[23:40:47] <andypugh> Yes, probably made in the 1960s
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[23:41:21] <andypugh> They made machine tools well in the 1960s/70s
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[23:42:33] <Quack_> yeah unfortunately not so much anymore
[23:44:05] <Quack_> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/tls/2681746490.html
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[23:45:39] <andypugh> That's pretty big.
[23:46:33] <Quack_> ok not for me.
[23:46:40] <Quack_> maybe you can sell me your sieg x3
[23:46:43] <Quack_> (clone)
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[23:49:22] <andypugh> I will be selling the whole thing at some point. But it's in the UK.
[23:50:03] <Quack_> darn
[23:50:58] <Quack_> maybe i should start off with a cheapie sieg
[23:51:10] <alex4nder> where are you?
[23:51:51] <andypugh> Who?
[23:51:55] <alex4nder> what?
[23:53:14] <JT-Shop> Quack_: better reserve 1/3 of your 6k for tooling...
[23:53:35] <alex4nder> yah
[23:53:36] <Quack_> damn thought a vice and tooling would just be $1k
[23:53:41] <alex4nder> haha
[23:53:44] <Quack_> i'm in san diego and or bay area
[23:53:49] <JT-Shop> it adds up fast
[23:54:03] <alex4nder> I've spent almost the price of my Taig in tooling
[23:54:32] <JT-Shop> I bought a VMC for 6k and spend 3k in tooling
[23:54:37] <JT-Shop> spent
[23:55:12] <Quack_> alex4nder can i come check out your Taig in action
[23:55:29] <alex4nder> it's not currently in action
[23:56:20] <Quack_> what do you need me to bring to make it be in action?
[23:56:22] <JT-Shop> I think the shizuoka has a 6k spindle
[23:56:34] <JT-Shop> be nice if I was closer
[23:57:41] <syyl> tooling for a mill?
[23:57:44] <syyl> hmm
[23:58:19] <syyl> collets/endmill holders, vice, clamps/screws/tnuts, rotary table, drills, endmills, etc...