#emc | Logs for 2011-10-01

[00:02:00] <andypugh> checkout your 2.5 tracking branch in git, pull and make.
[00:02:20] <andypugh> All the work we have been doing is on a 2.5 base
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[00:08:35] * Jymmm is back! RUN! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!
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[00:10:08] * Tom_itx dives under a rock and hides
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[00:11:04] * Jymmm tosses peanuts at the rock monster!
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[00:16:18] <andypugh> Hmm, crinkled into a cup, or folded into a boiling pan, it leaks. It is clearly tiny tears at the corners of folds.
[00:16:50] <Tom_itx> is there a point to an aluminum foil cup?
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[00:16:53] <Jymmm> andypugh: Ah. I'll have to try that here too.
[00:17:31] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: You can keep foil anywhere fold, but if you needed boilable water, foil seemed a good way to go.
[00:18:12] <andypugh> Paper might work better: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/527233/boil_water_in_one_dollar_bill/
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[00:19:03] <Jymmm> andypugh: I've seen water boiled in a plastic container hung above a fire. It disforms the bottle, but it does boil.
[00:21:28] <Tom_itx> and tastes like plastic when you're done
[00:21:44] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: You've tried it? I've only seen it.
[00:21:49] <ds3> just use paper to boil
[00:22:24] <Tom_itx> no i haven't tried it but i can imagine
[00:22:54] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: Yeah, true. That's why I try everything and not take someone's word for it.
[00:23:35] <Jymmm> andypugh: 14 drops boiled, 89,000 more to boil-a-buck!
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[01:09:51] <andypugh> Night all
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[03:40:20] <tlbGantry> In Axis if I jog any joint in 'joint mode' I'm given an error when trying to enter 'world mode'.
[03:40:37] <tlbGantry> Error: All joints must be homed before going into coordinated mode
[03:40:59] <tlbGantry> But I've homed before and after... and makes no difference.
[03:41:20] <tlbGantry> The only thing that 'resets' this is to close and re launch axis...
[03:42:05] <tlbGantry> Correction...get that when trying to go to mdi tab...
[03:42:24] <tlbGantry> but get the same error but for 'telop mode' when trying to go to 'world mode'
[03:43:05] <tlbGantry> Is the normal, a bug of some sort? Or does this point to a error in my hal / ini?
[03:43:34] <tlbGantry> Using gantrykins kinesmatics
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[05:40:31] <Loetmichel> moin!
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[13:04:16] <JT-Shop> anyone know what the German word korpus means? google translate fails me on that word...
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[13:32:10] <JT-Shop> is a 7i37 good for step generation or is it too slow? MOSFET outputs turn on in ~3 uSec and off in ~7 uSec.
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[13:34:41] <JT-Shop> never mind I just found the 7i47
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[14:28:12] <JT-Shop> wow there is 112 terminals on the 7i76... I can't wait to get mine :) I hope Lili (spelling) found me one
[14:39:10] <jdhNC> Lili sounds hot
[14:39:19] <jdhNC> not to be a pig or anything
[14:39:29] <Tom_itx> :)
[14:39:35] <jdhNC> but... chicks that send you hardware and are named Lili...
[14:40:24] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, i use the 47 on my little mill
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[14:42:14] <jdhNC> I have a 7i37 sitting here that I'm planning on using with my mill
[14:42:35] <Tom_itx> maybe a better choice..
[14:43:27] <jdhNC> I think I got a 7i47 also, but had no idea why... must have been something I heard here.
[14:44:48] <jdhNC> isn't tehre supposed to be one aimed at MPG's that needed something like that?
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[14:45:29] <Tom_itx> mmm 7i76 hasn't made it to the price sheet yet
[14:45:49] <jdhNC> which price sheet
[14:46:07] <Tom_itx> the one on mesa's site
[14:47:21] <jdhNC> oh, I thought it was on the pdf one, but not the html one (or the other way aroudn) but I don't see it anywhere.
[14:53:42] <Tom_itx> must be a new one for the 5i2x cards
[14:58:22] <pcw_home> I think the price is on th PDF price list ($119)
[14:58:23] <JT-Shop> no it is just for the 5i25 card
[14:58:40] <jdhNC> I'm probably going to get a 5i25? or whatever it is instead of using this 7i432
[15:00:14] <Tom_itx> typo on the last line of the description
[15:00:29] <JT-Shop> pcw_home: I don't see the 7i76 on the pdf price list
[15:00:40] <Tom_itx> i didn't either
[15:00:56] <pcw_home> Well its in my imaginary price list
[15:01:02] <JT-Shop> LOL
[15:01:12] <Tom_itx> free until further posted
[15:01:15] <JT-Shop> that's good enough for me
[15:01:49] <JT-Shop> I wonder if they send mine yesterday...
[15:02:03] <JT-Shop> s/send/sent
[15:02:27] <JT-Shop> crap can't spell today as good as normal and that's bad
[15:02:43] <pcw_home> delivery time is inversly proportional lto price
[15:05:23] <pcw_home> I know their not shipped yet The will be shipped wednesday next week
[15:07:38] <pcw_home> Problem is when engineers run the company theres always a last minute firmware tweak
[15:08:26] <Tom_itx> are the drivers set in stone for that board combination?
[15:09:00] <Tom_itx> 5i25 7i76
[15:09:05] <pcw_home> No, its not even beta
[15:09:18] <Tom_itx> is that what andy's working on?
[15:10:26] <pcw_home> The stardard stuff (encoders, stepgen, PWM etc )all work fine as they are identical to all the other cards
[15:10:37] <JT-Shop> np, just curious
[15:10:50] <JT-Shop> still having sserial issues?
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[15:12:09] <Tom_itx> is the DB25 and the idc internal plugs the same basic pinouts?
[15:12:17] <Tom_itx> on the 5i25
[15:12:52] <pcw_home> so basically the 5I25 is fully supported, whats not supported are new generic sserial devices
[15:12:54] <pcw_home> the 7I76 uses a generic sserial for its field I/O
[15:13:21] <pcw_home> yes both are parallel port pinout
[15:13:34] <Tom_itx> looks like the internal is wider
[15:14:16] <Tom_itx> 34 idc?
[15:14:36] <pcw_home> that the proto (the card can accept a 34 header with 6 more I/O but the production cards use 26's)
[15:15:04] <JT-Shop> so you can plug two daughter cards into the 5i25?
[15:15:11] <Tom_itx> seems so
[15:15:40] <Tom_itx> are you gonna offer a idc to DB25 adapter to bring the internal out the back of the pc?
[15:16:09] <pcw_home> Andy briefly had support for "unknown" sserial devices but removed it :-(
[15:16:16] <Tom_itx> time to rob some old pc's again
[15:16:42] <pcw_home> Yes we offer that bracket/cable ($5.00 I think)
[15:17:27] <Tom_itx> did you ever find the short slot brackets you were hunting for?
[15:17:37] <pcw_home> Most of the configs are for 2 daugtercards
[15:18:40] <pcw_home> Yes we found a source (well Oleg did I dont know where they are comming from)
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[15:22:55] <pcw_home> The reason for the shipping delay on the 7I76 is that we found the bug that prevented us running the sserial at > 5 MB
[15:22:57] <pcw_home> and unlike the RS-422 sserial devices, the 7I76 would be somewhat of a pain to do a firmware field upgrade
[15:22:58] <pcw_home> since you can use a normal USB/serial adapter
[15:24:05] <JT-Shop> glad you found the bug first :)
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[15:27:23] <pcw_home> well it didn't casue a real problem since the defaut baud rate is 2.5 MB
[15:27:25] <pcw_home> but it was one of those things that we were "bugged" about
[15:27:59] <pcw_home> (and now we can have update rates up to ~ 20KHz if needed)
[15:28:15] <JT-Shop> wow
[15:28:40] * JT-Shop finally got the CHNC weaned from extension cords
[15:29:32] <pcw_home> no more temporary wiring?
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[15:32:04] <JT-Shop> nope, cut the last one to the monitor and closed all the doors up tight
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[15:35:48] <JT-Shop> only thing left is to make/buy a wall mount for the monitor and make a place for the keyboard and mouse
[15:36:37] <pcw_home> What was the original CHNC control panel like?
[15:40:50] <Tom_itx> how do you configure for the faster sserial rates? ?
[15:40:53] <Tom_itx> jumpers?
[15:43:39] <pcw_home> On the remotes (other than 7I64) is a EEPROM setup thing
[15:43:41] <pcw_home> on the FPGA resident SSERIAL/SSLBP its a variable you set
[15:43:43] <pcw_home> before you start the interface
[15:44:15] <Tom_itx> makes more sense to be soft/firmware selectable
[15:45:19] <pcw_home> Would actually be even nicer if it could autonegotiate but thats pretty painful
[15:46:34] <pcw_home> the main thing weve learned getting this running in the DSPICs is that edge triggered interrupts are the work of the devil
[15:46:48] <Tom_itx> hah
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[15:56:23] <pcw_home> We also learned the the subset of our protocol that is actually used for process data is very small
[15:56:25] <pcw_home> so for process data we no longer go through the protocol parser, but rather our tools generate
[15:56:27] <pcw_home> hardwired code for the process data transfer (though you cannot tell externaly that this is happening)
[15:56:28] <pcw_home> This just about doubled our throughput
[15:58:17] <Tom_itx> what daughter.. daughter cards would use the sserial input?
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[16:00:20] <pcw_home> For isolated input, the 7I71 (48 5-36V inputs)
[16:00:22] <pcw_home> fon not isolated TTL 7I69 (48 I/O)
[16:00:54] <Tom_itx> nothing too process intensive then
[16:00:58] <pcw_home> sorry isolated input card is 7I70
[16:01:38] <pcw_home> The only thing you cant do is run these in a fast base thread
[16:03:03] <pcw_home> I assumed you meant remote input cards
[16:03:05] <pcw_home> theres usually a daughter card needed at the host end for the RS-422 interface)
[16:06:37] <pcw_home> A few serrial devices are not RS-422 (like the embedded sserial I/O on the 7i76 card)
[16:06:39] <pcw_home> these just use a direct TTL level serial link
[16:06:54] <JT-Shop> pcw_home: it was a general numeric control
[16:07:53] <JT-Shop> http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/johnplctech/Hardinge/Screen03.jpg
[16:08:48] <pcw_home> I like that GE meter
[16:09:00] <JT-Shop> that still works
[16:09:17] <Tom_itx> spindle load?
[16:09:22] <JT-Shop> yea
[16:10:32] <pcw_home> I guess is it was older you could have reclaimed more controls (maybe MPGs or more switces)
[16:11:08] <JT-Shop> the MPG and other switches are on a side panel
[16:12:02] <JT-Shop> http://gnipsel.com/shop/hardinge/hardinge-10.xhtml
[16:12:59] <JT-Shop> I only use the three buttons on the right phase converter start, stop, pc on/off http://gnipsel.com/shop/hardinge/hardinge-11.xhtml
[16:15:23] <pcw_home> ok. is the monitor mounted now?
[16:16:31] <JT-Shop> no, it is sitting on my saw horse I made for my miter saw with a piece of plywood on it LOL
[16:19:36] <JT-Shop> http://imagebin.org/176980
[16:20:22] <JT-Shop> can't decide if I want to sit and program or stand...
[16:22:14] <pcw_home> Yea probably need a sit down computer and a control panel computer
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[16:26:44] <JT-Shop> just one will do for the lathe, it's on the network so I can program on this one at my desk and read the file from the Hardinge
[16:27:18] <Tom_itx> make sure you mount a plasma tv behind the sitdown workstation though
[16:29:07] <JT-Shop> plasma tv?
[16:29:21] <Tom_itx> of course
[16:29:49] <pcw_home> Thats what I meant a local EMC computer in the lathe panel and a common sit down computer for all machines
[16:30:46] <Tom_itx> we had a separate programming room so you could spread all your prints out over the drafting table and a file cabinet in there for all the jobs
[16:31:04] <JT-Shop> yea, I have that now with all my EMC machines
[16:31:29] <Tom_itx> and fewer shop distractions in there but you are a force of one i presume
[16:31:55] <Tom_itx> the screw compressor had a room to itself too
[16:32:00] <Tom_itx> since it was so loud
[16:32:32] <JT-Shop> yea, I usually work here alone although I do have a partner in crime
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[17:06:17] <Jymmm> ...with four legs.
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[17:36:38] <JT-Shop> she does as much work as my two legged partner sometimes
[17:36:48] <JT-Shop> YIPPIE! Samson is alive
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[17:58:56] <Tom_itx> excavating?
[17:59:44] <JT-Shop> the manual lathe
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[19:55:05] <JT-Shop> http://www.amtencoder.com/
[20:01:33] <archivist> JT-Shop, look at accuracy v resolution
[20:02:44] <archivist> methinks some may be fooled into thinking they are better than they are
[20:02:58] <JT-Shop> someone posted that link on the forum
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[20:06:31] <JT-Shop> 2048 PPR with ±15 arcmin whatever that is
[20:07:09] <archivist> 15 arc mins I assume means 1/4 of a degree accuracy ie 1440 per rev any extra resolution is erm guessed
[20:08:33] <archivist> ie similar misconception that micro stepping gives users
[20:09:28] <JT-Shop> I don't know enough about it to comment
[20:12:52] <archivist> http://www.micromo.com/microstepping-myths-and-realities.aspx
[20:26:50] <Loetmichel> hmmm
[20:27:57] <Loetmichel> in my opiniion: microsteppiung gives you smoother run, but at best double resolution, ' cause the rotors are not designed to move linear between steps.
[20:28:58] <archivist> no guarantee that the half step is in the middle of the full :)
[20:31:28] <Loetmichel> archivist: correct
[20:32:36] <Loetmichel> especially if you dial down the current if two coils are energizet (waht one SHOUD do to minimize torqe peaks)
[20:33:00] <Loetmichel> thats why i said "at best"
[20:34:24] <archivist> far to many drink the micro stepping snake oil as regards resolution
[20:35:21] <Loetmichel> but if you use a losed loop microstepping driver with an ecoder on the back of the motor there is a wohle other game
[20:35:36] <Loetmichel> i have worked ith such a system once
[20:35:47] <Loetmichel> you wouldn belive that the motors are steppers
[20:36:46] <Loetmichel> quiet as a dc servo, more torque than any similar sized dc servo AND no possibility of lost steps AND nicrofine resolutionAND accuracy
[20:36:58] <Loetmichel> but the pricetag is a bit proihibiting ;-)
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[20:37:57] <Loetmichel> only drawback: not faster than a "normal" stepper, so at about 2000RPM the torque is nearly gone
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[20:40:04] <frallzor> hello thar emc-loving chaps
[20:44:09] <Loetmichel> hmm, it seems i should clean my keyboard once again. the spelling errors get out of hand ;-)
[20:46:02] <frallzor> machinerelated Q, how low can one turn a HS-spindle without it being rubbish? Got a 18k rpm one that I want more suitable for alu and wondering how low I can set it before its just weak and just does good as a heater =)
[20:48:19] <archivist> I think some run those speeds in al, just get the right cutters/lube and machine rigidity
[20:49:44] <frallzor> Any link to a nice "guide" to get correct settings?
[20:49:57] <frallzor> I really have to guess and test every single time =)
[20:50:23] <frallzor> would be nice to see what I "should" set for like 6mm carbide with 2 flutes etc etc
[20:51:52] <FinboySlick> frallzor: Heh, we're in the same boat.
[20:52:25] <FinboySlick> frallzor: It's a matter of gaining enough experience to know how the machine will behave given the material and other conditions.
[20:52:41] <frallzor> I know what I can do
[20:52:54] <archivist> some tooling makers publish guides
[20:52:54] <frallzor> but I dont know how to configure for the tools and materials
[20:53:21] <frallzor> wood/plastic I own, never mess that up, but Alu is another story =)
[20:53:31] <FinboySlick> frallzor: Mine does 8k to 24k. I pick tools that will fit that range at the travel speeds my machine can handle.
[20:54:15] <frallzor> I havent gotten a clue what travel speeds is suitable for rpm etc, that I would like to learn =)
[20:54:23] <FinboySlick> I still suck big time at getting good finish in Al though.
[20:54:43] <archivist> frallzor, speed relates to cut per tooth per reve
[20:54:45] <FinboySlick> frallzor: Do you have documentation for your cutters?
[20:54:54] <frallzor> nope, generic ones
[20:55:02] <frallzor> some carbide, some hss
[20:55:07] <frallzor> 2 flutes
[20:55:11] <frallzor> not much more info
[20:55:18] <FinboySlick> frallzor: Well, it's a good start.
[20:55:45] <FinboySlick> You can base yourself off of published stats for similar tools... Perhaps underevaluate their performance a little.
[20:56:25] <syyl_> be aware, the stats from the tool producers are for productivity, not for long tool live...
[20:56:36] <syyl_> maybe scale em down
[20:56:48] <frallzor> their stats are probably better than my in both ways =)
[20:57:11] <syyl_> look for the term "chipload"
[20:57:26] <FinboySlick> frallzor: I bought some slightly more expensive endmills so as to get good documentation and build experience with.
[20:57:27] <syyl_> and "surface speed"
[20:57:38] <syyl_> then you can calc your own speeds
[20:57:52] <syyl_> there are some generic values that work for most cutters
[20:58:42] <FinboySlick> syyl_: While on this topic... you seen the pic I posted of terrible finish on the side of a part?
[20:59:02] <syyl_> uhm, no
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[20:59:18] <FinboySlick> Lemme see if I can dig it out.
[20:59:42] <syyl_> but i am machining aluminum right at the moment ;)
[20:59:43] <archivist> FinboySlick, recutting the swarf/chips causes poor finish
[21:00:25] <FinboySlick> archivist: So you think I had chip clearance problems?
[21:01:06] <syyl_> sometimes
[21:01:21] <syyl_> compressed air makes everything better ;)
[21:01:22] <archivist> were you climb milling or conventional
[21:01:32] <syyl_> (also a better mess in the shop)
[21:01:33] <FinboySlick> http://imagebin.org/177014 I was thinking that would be a rigidity thing. I was doing climb.
[21:01:43] <syyl_> uh, yes
[21:01:54] <syyl_> that looks like a rigidity problem
[21:02:10] <archivist> long tool and chatter, was it noisy
[21:02:13] <syyl_> maybe to much tool stick out?
[21:02:28] <FinboySlick> Yeah, it was very noisy and only two flutes.
[21:02:49] <syyl_> two flutes are ok for aluminum
[21:02:50] <FinboySlick> I got some 3 flute funishers of the same size now.
[21:02:57] <archivist> cut less deep per pass
[21:03:05] <FinboySlick> And tweaked my machine so it could move faster.
[21:03:18] <syyl_> and go for a finishing cut, if the surface is still not good enough
[21:03:18] <FinboySlick> archivist: That was a 0.5mm finish pass.
[21:03:29] <syyl_> how deep?
[21:03:41] <syyl_> full depth at once while finishing?
[21:03:50] <FinboySlick> syyl_: Yeah.
[21:04:04] <syyl_> that might be to much for the tool you used
[21:04:48] <FinboySlick> My machine is now fast enough to do the same operations at 13krpm with 3 flutes instead of 2.
[21:05:02] <FinboySlick> 3/16 diameter.
[21:05:56] <FinboySlick> The part is 10mm tall.
[21:05:57] <archivist> and length of tool in the cut
[21:06:32] <frallzor> http://www.mapal.us/calculators/milling/CalculatorMilling.htm might be helpful? =)
[21:07:19] <FinboySlick> frallzor: Yeah, that's usually a good way to get a basic idea. I think I have more trouble with the depth of cut thing than the chip load and what not.
[21:11:49] <FinboySlick> I also noticed that carbide tools tend to be about 0.002" undersized... I assume I should take that into consideration when cutting.
[21:13:12] <archivist> how do you measure them, do you break the edge in the process!
[21:14:18] <FinboySlick> Well, since the flutes are spirals, I measured along the lengths of my caliper jaws.
[21:15:21] <FinboySlick> I don't think it was anywhere near rought enough to damage the edges.
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