#emc | Logs for 2011-08-28

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[00:34:15] <JT-Shop> anyone have a clever way to machine this without a dividing head or rotary? http://imagebin.org/169919
[00:35:14] <Tom_itx> :)
[00:35:36] <Tom_itx> maybe on a 5 axis
[00:35:51] <JT-Shop> don't have that either :/
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[00:36:07] <Tom_itx> i pinned my probe bottom to drill the holes
[00:36:12] <Tom_itx> since i had no other way
[00:36:42] <Tom_itx> make a fixture with some holes and use dowel pins
[00:37:02] <JT-Shop> I might do something clever like that
[00:37:17] <Tom_itx> how many teeth?
[00:37:33] <andypugh> JT-Shop: machine the slots with rounded bottoms in a normal mill, then use those slots to index in a fixture to finish them out.
[00:37:46] <JT-Shop> 24 teeth
[00:38:21] <Tom_itx> so 12 holes in one side and 2 in the other for the pins, or 6 and 4
[00:38:43] <Tom_itx> spaced properly of course
[00:39:19] <JT-Shop> andypugh: I can't quite visualize that yet
[00:40:06] <Tom_itx> mill it flat with a regular mill then stand it up is what he's saying
[00:40:20] <Tom_itx> same idea but using the unfinished teeth for the index
[00:40:34] <JT-Shop> how do you index the last tooth?
[00:40:41] <Tom_itx> it will be off
[00:40:49] <JT-Shop> lol
[00:40:55] <andypugh> mill it as a profile. Then set it up between centres or on a shaft or something, use a stop against one of the part-formed teeth to index while milling the finished profile.
[00:40:56] <Tom_itx> i think your pin thing is the best bet
[00:41:17] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, i found that out on my probe tip so i drilled an extra hole
[00:41:18] <JT-Shop> andypugh: now I understand
[00:41:33] <andypugh> JT-Shop: You need to not touch the index-point of the first op with the second op.
[00:41:41] <danielfalck> JT-Shop: mill the first tooth and then use a follower finger (it's got to be at the right place in space) to rest the freshly cut tooth with to do the next one?
[00:42:09] <danielfalck> with the disc set up on it's side mounted to a shaft
[00:42:21] <JT-Shop> yea, I just have to finger that out a bit
[00:44:28] <JT-Shop> if the follower finger is on the other side from where you mill but back by one tooth from horz will that work?
[00:46:31] <andypugh> 0 5 10 15 20 1 6 11 16 21 2 7 12 17.....
[00:47:01] <andypugh> ie, an alignement peg 5 pitches away also works.
[00:48:08] <danielfalck> JT-Shop: play with it in cad and you can work it out
[00:48:45] <JT-Shop> yea, just getting some starting points, thanks
[00:49:18] <danielfalck> a dowel pin pressed in to the fixture should work
[00:49:27] <andypugh> It seems to me like a good excuse to buy a rotary.
[00:49:32] <danielfalck> yes :)
[00:49:34] <JT-Shop> lol, yea
[00:49:40] <danielfalck> or make one
[00:49:41] <JT-Shop> I'm looking now btw
[00:49:48] <andypugh> You have a manual lathe?
[00:50:25] <JT-Shop> yes
[00:50:56] <andypugh> Is it old enough to have a set of thread-cutting gears?
[00:51:11] <JT-Shop> a Samson http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/johnplctech/Machine%20Shop/HPIM2631.jpg
[00:51:28] <andypugh> If so, you can clamp one of those to the blank, and use it to index.
[00:51:30] <JT-Shop> yea, gears under cover
[00:51:58] <andypugh> If there is a 24 or 48 tooth, then you are set.
[00:52:23] <JT-Shop> I'll have to see, but I doubt they are small enough for this part
[00:52:43] <andypugh> Mount it on the same shaft as the blank, it can be far enough away to clear the cutter.
[00:52:50] <JT-Shop> but maybe is is 1.5" in diameter
[00:53:11] <JT-Shop> yea, I could do that and use my V jaws to hold the shaft
[00:54:23] <andypugh> Right, night all.
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[00:54:32] <JT-Shop> goodnight Andy
[00:56:25] <JT-Shop> an A plate sprocket with 24 teeth will work :)
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[00:58:17] <danielfalck> you could make a simple indexing device out of a piece of bar stock, with a shaft going through the center
[00:58:32] <danielfalck> mount your gear to one end and the part to cut to the other
[00:59:23] <JT-Shop> just drill 24 holes on the plate and one hole in the holder...
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[02:21:30] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, that's more than you need but would work
[02:31:41] <Tom_itx> 6 in one plate at 60 deg and 4 in the other at 15 deg i think
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[02:35:42] <Tom_itx> yeah that seems to work out
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[03:36:37] <FinboySlick> The more I mess with things, the more I find that EMC is the easy bit when it comes to milling.
[03:37:44] <toastyde1th> yep.
[03:38:09] <FinboySlick> I need to get better at speeds and feeds, really don't like the sound that cutter made.
[03:40:24] <toastyde1th> here is a tip that most people miss when starting out
[03:40:31] <toastyde1th> it is usually impossible to go too slowly with the speed.
[03:41:08] <toastyde1th> they try to go with the recommeded surface speed and have trouble, but that is a maximum recommended value, not a mininum
[03:41:28] <FinboySlick> toastyde1th: Minimum RPM on this spindle is 8000. I have to go fast enough not to kill my cutter.
[03:41:56] <toastyde1th> and therein lies the problem
[03:42:20] <FinboySlick> But yeah, sort of makes me wish I had started with a normal spindle.
[03:44:54] <Eartaker> at 8k you need collant and some high feed rates
[03:45:02] <Eartaker> are you cutting metal/
[03:45:04] <Eartaker> ?
[03:46:04] <FinboySlick> Eartaker: I'm cutting at 19k RPM right now to keep the cutter cool. That bit works, I can touch it with my fingers after a few passes no problem.
[03:46:07] <Eartaker> use this calc and it will help you out... you need to know what chip load you want on your cutter though... use .001 if you dont have any idea
[03:46:08] <Eartaker> http://www.eartaker.net/machining/milling/calc.php
[03:46:37] <Eartaker> if you dont get the right chip load you will just dull the cutter
[03:46:57] <Eartaker> its more rubbing than cutting
[03:47:13] <Eartaker> what size of cutter are you using?
[03:47:27] <FinboySlick> Eartaker: Yeah, I got that concept.
[03:47:45] <FinboySlick> Eartaker: 3/16, 3mm deep in aluminium.
[03:47:56] <Eartaker> how many flute?
[03:48:03] <FinboySlick> (sorry for mixed units, part is designed metric but I only have imperial sized cutters)
[03:48:09] <FinboySlick> 2 flutes.
[03:48:31] <Eartaker> what IPM are you running?
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[03:49:20] <FinboySlick> I tried ~1100mm/min with 90% overlap for facing, that was scary but the cutter survived.
[03:49:39] <FinboySlick> I sort of did things in reverse, went crazy then toned down ;)
[03:50:20] <Eartaker> If I were you..... I would back off the DOC to 1.2mm and the feed to 508
[03:50:27] <Eartaker> at 19k
[03:50:29] <Eartaker> rom
[03:50:31] <Eartaker> rpm
[03:50:43] <FinboySlick> Yeah, I figured I was taking things a bit deep.
[03:50:50] <Eartaker> that is a shop load of .001"
[03:51:07] <Eartaker> or .025,,
[03:51:09] <Eartaker> mm
[03:51:25] <Eartaker> that would make your cutter happy
[03:52:08] <FinboySlick> I see lots of HSM CNC work where much of the work is done from the side of the cutter.
[03:52:20] <FinboySlick> Instead of shallow passes.
[03:53:03] <FinboySlick> Obviously chip load if you're using a significant portion of the flute length would mean a lot more work on the tool.
[04:00:28] <Eartaker> yes and if your tool holder can take that force you can run that DOC but when doing so you normaly dont have a 90% stepover
[04:01:00] <Eartaker> the other day I was running a 3/4" at 1"DOC but only at .02 stepps
[04:01:47] <FinboySlick> Eartaker: I get the feeling that chip load is sort of the key to a happy tool, correct?
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[04:02:31] <Eartaker> yep
[04:02:43] <Eartaker> you are correct sir
[04:04:06] <Eartaker> there are a few chards on this page depending on what type of cutter you have.... i.e HSS/cobalt or carbide
[04:04:23] <FinboySlick> Eartaker: Holder is an ER11 collet right into the spindle shaft.
[04:04:28] <Eartaker> they will tell you recomended ciploads for the material you are cutting and the size of cutter
[04:04:30] <Eartaker> http://www.endmill.com/pages/training/spdfeed.html
[04:04:36] <FinboySlick> It's all carbide.
[04:04:46] <FinboySlick> Some is AlTin coated as well.
[04:04:55] <FinboySlick> But not that 3/16"
[04:04:57] <Eartaker> http://www.endmill.com/pages/training/Speed%20and%20Feed%20-%20Carbide%20End%20Mills%20and%20Drills.pdf
[04:05:19] <Eartaker> going off of that chart you could run .001 to .002" chip load
[04:05:51] <Eartaker> you can use the cals on my page to help figure out the feed if you ware running 19k rpm
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[04:06:48] <FinboySlick> Eartaker: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_f4GOLMJnQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=35s is sort of what I'm hoping to achieve at some point, but probably not yet.
[04:07:19] <FinboySlick> Obviously, that cutter is a lot thicker than what I'm using.
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[04:28:00] <Eartaker> also look at the steppover
[04:29:05] <FinboySlick> Eartaker: In the video you mean?
[04:30:50] <Eartaker> yeah
[04:30:57] <Eartaker> small
[04:31:08] <Eartaker> not 90% :-P
[04:31:50] <Eartaker> http://www.eartaker.net/machining/milling/zx45.php
[04:33:03] <FinboySlick> OOoh, fancy.
[04:33:10] <Eartaker> took me a bit to convert
[04:33:16] <Eartaker> but I run Mach 3 on t lol
[04:33:18] <Eartaker> it
[04:33:48] <FinboySlick> Yeah, I was going to point htat out from the video.
[04:34:04] <Connor> Dang, That was allot of material removed to make those servo cases..
[04:34:34] <FinboySlick> I wish my passes made that kind of sound, but the smoke is a bit worrysome.
[04:35:28] <Eartaker> Conner yeah it was
[04:35:34] <Eartaker> even more on the encoder housings
[04:35:47] <Connor> That's what I was talking about..
[04:36:11] <Eartaker> oo
[04:36:13] <Eartaker> yeah lol
[04:36:40] <Eartaker> started with a 12"X6"X1" plate
[04:36:43] <Eartaker> to make 3
[04:36:52] <FinboySlick> Eartaker: I went spoiled brat on my mill, bought a ready made thing. But I'm pretty sure I'll go DIY on an evendual lathe.
[04:37:09] <FinboySlick> :s/evendual/eventual/
[04:37:23] <Connor> I just finished the 2nd motor mount today for my conversion.. all manual...
[04:37:31] <Connor> Need to make more standoff's.
[04:37:39] <Connor> then do the Z bracket next..
[04:38:01] * FinboySlick is all admiration for the DIY people here.
[04:38:09] <Eartaker> Fin, what kind of mill?
[04:38:11] <Connor> I've been mostly Dry Milling everything...
[04:38:20] <Eartaker> Connor, im a pro at standoffs now :-P
[04:38:20] <Eartaker> lol
[04:38:21] <Connor> but, only at about 2000 RPM..
[04:38:35] <Connor> I have no lathe.. so they're a pain in the a$$ on the mill.
[04:38:43] <Eartaker> I dry mill but squirt it every now and then
[04:38:53] <FinboySlick> Eartaker: http://www.syilamerica.com/machine_x5speed.php
[04:38:58] <Eartaker> OOOO yeah that would suck with no lathe
[04:39:01] <Connor> I'm a complete Noob when it comes to manually milling..
[04:39:05] <Eartaker> ahhh the X5
[04:39:43] <FinboySlick> Considering it's supposed to be cheap chinese crap, it's pretty darn nice.
[04:39:47] <FinboySlick> But it has its rough edges.
[04:39:58] <Connor> To do them.. I used a collet with the stock in it.. and put a V-block in my vise.. then adjusted the table till it made good contact with the V-block and locked it down..
[04:40:06] <FinboySlick> The spindle controller seems a bit flaky.
[04:40:16] <Connor> then release the stock from the collet and drilled the holes.
[04:41:14] <Connor> If I could get my Arbor off the 4" 3-Jaw chuck.. I think I would use it instead of the vise+v-block combo.. and only have to do the alignment once...
[04:41:35] <Connor> but, I removed the bolts, but can't get the arbor off.. it locked on pretty tight.
[04:41:43] <Eartaker> Connor, you need a lathe...
[04:42:08] <Eartaker> Fin, you need some Gecko's :-
[04:42:11] <Eartaker> :-P
[04:42:36] <Connor> Well.. No. I just need a way to find the center of the spindle... My G0704 can rotate it's head 90 degress.
[04:42:38] <FinboySlick> Eartaker: No problem with the stepper controllers themselves. It's the spindle motor that sometimes doesn't sound entirely confident.
[04:42:40] <Connor> back in a but.
[04:43:34] <FinboySlick> Otherwise, I'm very pleased with how smooth and easy it moves.
[04:44:49] <FinboySlick> Lubrication is automatic too, which is kind of nice.
[04:45:04] <FinboySlick> Little pump just starts every now and then.
[04:46:03] <Eartaker> what is wrong with tthe spindle?
[04:46:10] <Eartaker> what does it do that you dont want?
[04:46:50] <FinboySlick> Eartaker: It has a smooth even sound for a while, then, randomly, it sounds as if it lost power for a few milliseconds and goes back to normal.
[04:48:52] <FinboySlick> Come to think of it, it's a lot like my vacuum cleaner ;)
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[04:50:51] <FinboySlick> Hmmm, here's an interestinq question...
[04:52:02] <FinboySlick> My homing switch is at the top of my z axis. Should I set things up so that 0 is at the top as well and every possible value goes down from there? (essentially making all absolute values of my Z axis negative). I found that G28 calls have a mean tendency of wanting to drive my tool in the table.
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[04:59:31] <Eartaker> hmm
[05:01:05] <Eartaker> Fin, that is how I have mine set up... machine 0 is at max Z and have it set so G28 goes to the center of X/Y and -1 on Z
[05:02:50] <FinboySlick> Eartaker: Thanks, I'll fix that.
[05:03:49] <Eartaker> what tooling system are you using? have you looked at Tormach?
[05:04:36] <FinboySlick> Eartaker: Syil Canada send me some starting tools. I looked at the Tormach but a lot of it is useless to me given my spindle.
[05:04:57] <FinboySlick> Eartaker: I can't go above 7mm with an ER11.
[05:06:00] <Eartaker> ahh
[05:06:16] <Eartaker> dont you have a R8 spindle?
[05:06:21] <FinboySlick> No.
[05:06:23] <Eartaker> or MT#?
[05:06:25] <Eartaker> 3
[05:06:39] <FinboySlick> Nope. It's the 24000RPM speedmaster spindle.
[05:06:49] <Eartaker> oooo
[05:07:03] <Eartaker> that kinda sucks....
[05:07:13] <Eartaker> or would for m
[05:07:14] <Eartaker> mme
[05:07:18] <FinboySlick> For tiny cutters and detailed parts, it doesn't ;)
[05:07:22] <Eartaker> depends on the application
[05:07:26] <Eartaker> true
[05:07:46] <FinboySlick> With the kind of travel on that mill, bigger is kind of pointless anyway.
[05:07:55] <FinboySlick> It's not really meant for large parts.
[05:16:02] <Eartaker> what are you making/
[05:16:04] <Eartaker> making?
[05:17:18] <FinboySlick> Eartaker: Just learning for now. I decided to take this on as a hobby. First project is an adapter plate for my chuck and 4th axis, since I was a noob and got a 4" chuck... And have a 4" table.
[05:17:56] <FinboySlick> Eartaker: Back on the topic of chip load...
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[05:19:10] <FinboySlick> If I want very smooth finish, shouldn't I spin quite fast with a tiny chip load?
[05:19:12] <Eartaker> oo nice
[05:19:43] <Eartaker> what is the slowest RPM you can run?
[05:19:50] <FinboySlick> Eartaker: 8k.
[05:20:02] <Eartaker> I have yet to run over 4K
[05:20:38] <Eartaker> you want to keep a .0005-.001 load with your spindle...
[05:20:57] <FinboySlick> OK.
[05:20:59] <Eartaker> if you are getting chatter then you might want to adjust the gibs on your mill
[05:21:17] <FinboySlick> Eartaker: It's all linear ways.
[05:21:29] <Eartaker> oh
[05:21:41] <Eartaker> do you have chatter?
[05:21:45] <FinboySlick> No.
[05:21:56] <FinboySlick> At least not that I can tell.
[05:22:05] <toastydeath> is this a home built machine
[05:22:05] <FinboySlick> Pretty much no backlash either.
[05:22:06] <Eartaker> better yet...if yo uhave a small video of it cutting it would tell me lots
[05:22:16] <FinboySlick> I'm working on that.
[05:22:22] <Eartaker> Toasty no
[05:22:29] <toastydeath> is it a router?
[05:22:33] <Eartaker> mill
[05:22:51] <toastydeath> a mill with an 8k min spindle?
[05:22:58] <FinboySlick> Eartaker: That earlier catastrophe of a facing attempt was my first time attacking something harder than nylon.
[05:23:10] <FinboySlick> toastydeath: Yeah. It's HSM focused.
[05:23:28] <Eartaker> Fin, I would look into getting a different spindle if you can
[05:23:32] <toastydeath> what original control did it have
[05:23:33] <Eartaker> http://www.syilamerica.com/machine_x5st.php
[05:23:55] <FinboySlick> Eartaker: I think that might be a major modification.
[05:24:06] <Eartaker> it willbe
[05:24:08] <Eartaker> be
[05:24:24] <Eartaker> but in the end it may be for the better depending on what you are making
[05:24:29] <FinboySlick> I'm mostly small-parts focused too so I don't know if it would be very useful to me.
[05:24:33] <Eartaker> I can run 100-7K
[05:24:58] <Eartaker> but I am also running a 2HP 3 phase with a VFD
[05:25:04] <FinboySlick> toastydeath: It came with some proprietary stepper drivers.
[05:25:10] <toastydeath> i mean control
[05:25:16] <toastydeath> what make/manufacture of control
[05:25:17] <FinboySlick> toastydeath: They seem to work pretty well.
[05:25:22] <FinboySlick> toastydeath: Syil.
[05:25:29] <Eartaker> brb
[05:25:50] <toastydeath> because the only milling machines i have seen that have 8k minimum spindles are half million dollar, five axis machines that have 25-50 hp for hard milling
[05:26:00] <FinboySlick> toastydeath: They apparently have QA issues, but I got a good set apparently.
[05:26:02] <toastydeath> it's not a terribly useful speed for general work
[05:26:51] <toastydeath> unless, obviously, you are using it as a router
[05:27:02] <FinboySlick> toastydeath: It just means more passes to me. It's not like I can make anything very big with it anyway.
[05:27:05] <toastydeath> wood/plastics, engraving, and small drilling
[05:28:13] <FinboySlick> As I gain experience, I might want to try and make it move faster though.
[05:28:36] <toastydeath> two things
[05:28:51] <toastydeath> one, "faster" is relative and a higher spindle speed isn't really what's meant by that
[05:29:06] <toastydeath> and two, i forget what i wanted to say
[05:29:19] <toastydeath> oh, yeah
[05:29:28] <toastydeath> two, emc is horrible at high speed machining
[05:29:53] <FinboySlick> toastydeath: It is?
[05:30:00] <toastydeath> yes
[05:30:04] <FinboySlick> How so?
[05:30:13] <toastydeath> it doesn't have lookahead and there are no plans to implement it
[05:31:10] <toastydeath> every month or so someone comes in here machining at a pretty good clip and is wondering why their parts won't cut accurately past a certain feed rate
[05:31:19] <FinboySlick> toastydeath: There's always the workaround of having that lookahead embeded in the g-code itself.
[05:31:35] <FinboySlick> Just needs a smarter postprocessor, no?
[05:31:42] <toastydeath> good luck with that
[05:32:46] <Eartaker> Toasty, do you have a cnc?
[05:33:04] <toastydeath> Eartaker, no, i do not own any personal cnc equipment.
[05:33:04] <FinboySlick> toastydeath: I'll sure keep all of this in mind.
[05:33:16] <toastydeath> my prior employers, being a machinist, did
[05:33:38] <toastydeath> so did the school I learned at.
[05:34:23] <Eartaker> Toasty he is runinng a 3/16" endmill at 19k... I told him to move at 20IPM for a chipload of .001"
[05:34:35] <Eartaker> but might have miss calculated
[05:34:38] <toastydeath> in what
[05:34:44] <Eartaker> should go with 38IPM
[05:34:51] <FinboySlick> numinum.
[05:35:05] <toastydeath> 38 ipm is already pushing or past the limit of contouring accuracy
[05:35:09] <Eartaker> Fin, where are you located in the world?
[05:35:31] <Eartaker> Toasty that may be but for the sake of the endmill thats what you want
[05:35:36] <toastydeath> .001 is not enough of a chipload for aluminum
[05:35:42] <toastydeath> but it'll at least get metal off the part
[05:35:45] <FinboySlick> Eartaker: Canada. The fin bit isn't about finland ;)
[05:35:46] <toastydeath> if not a very long cutter life
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[05:36:24] <Eartaker> Fin, ahh
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[05:36:37] <toastydeath> power's flickering, good times
[05:37:02] <FinboySlick> toastydeath: Care to expand on accuracy issues due to lack of lookahead?
[05:37:23] <FinboySlick> I'd like to understand that bit a bit better.
[05:37:24] <toastydeath> it makes bumps on the wall of the part and causes all kinds of weird feed chatter in corners
[05:37:33] <toastydeath> as the machine overshoots where it's trying to go
[05:38:13] <toastydeath> at 19k you're going to chatter in corners no matter what you do
[05:38:30] <toastydeath> except maybe predrill the area
[05:38:49] <FinboySlick> toastydeath: Lookahead would fix that how?
[05:39:08] <toastydeath> the machine compiles the path into an acceleration profile.
[05:39:44] <toastydeath> the specifics of what it varies and how much is proprietary to each machine control
[05:40:07] <toastydeath> some machines go so far as to measure the servo load and vary spindle speed
[05:40:17] <FinboySlick> Fancy.
[05:40:27] <toastydeath> machining fast is really hard, is the life lesson
[05:41:01] <toastydeath> getting mastercam to do the acceleration will fix some of the issues but a lot of what the controls do is not accessable by gcode.
[05:41:24] <FinboySlick> Manufacturer guideline on my mill says 1.5m/min top speed.
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[05:42:40] <toastydeath> consider that machining centers that run 19k spindles usually have a 20 meter/minute feed
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[05:42:50] <toastydeath> in practice you'll see a quarter to half that at that speed
[05:43:05] <toastydeath> get yourself some single flute cutters, too
[05:43:09] <toastydeath> that will help cut down on the required speed
[05:43:16] <toastydeath> you can use carbide routing bits
[05:43:21] <toastydeath> especially in aluminum
[05:43:26] <toastydeath> never in steel, but Al will be fine
[05:43:56] <FinboySlick> toastydeath: I can go down to 8k and as high as 24k.
[05:44:06] <toastydeath> how many hp
[05:44:17] <FinboySlick> 1 or 1.5, lemme check.
[05:44:24] <toastydeath> awesome, that's fine for what you want to do
[05:45:02] <toastydeath> by the way, a 3 or 4 mm cutter is your best bet
[05:45:17] <FinboySlick> toastydeath: I don't really aim to get the part done fast. This isn't a production setup. Getting smooth finishes is way more important to me.
[05:45:17] <toastydeath> at 8k rpm that's the high end for high speed steel
[05:45:40] <toastydeath> FinboySlick, the things that lead to a good finish are very similar to the things that lead to fast machining
[05:45:43] <FinboySlick> toastydeath: I only have plain carbide and AlTin carbide.
[05:45:51] <toastydeath> carbide's better
[05:45:57] <toastydeath> I just assume hobby folks are using hss
[05:46:13] <toastydeath> in aluminum you want to be using the plain carbide
[05:46:21] <toastydeath> if you have the choice, do not use a coated endmill
[05:46:33] <FinboySlick> toastydeath: Yeah, I got a 2fl 3/16" on that one.
[05:46:50] <FinboySlick> I was thinking high rpm would help but from this talk, slowing it down is likely a better bet.
[05:47:15] <toastydeath> the problem is that you're taking such a small depth of cut that the aluminum is going to tear more than it cuts
[05:47:35] <toastydeath> leaving you with kind of a spotty, rough surface
[05:48:16] <toastydeath> finishing aluminum is usually done with an endmill that has something of a radius on the tips
[05:48:27] <toastydeath> with about .005" per tooth feed
[05:48:28] <FinboySlick> toastydeath: I have enough HP to take a decent depth I think. But I have no clue how to figure out the sweet spot.
[05:48:39] <toastydeath> it's more a feed issue, not really depth of cut, sorry
[05:48:42] <toastydeath> by depth i meant chip load
[05:49:15] <toastydeath> at 8k rpm I would be going at 80 ipm or a little faster
[05:49:19] <toastydeath> with a two flute cutter
[05:49:20] <toastydeath> to finish
[05:49:26] <toastydeath> unless I had a flycutter
[05:49:36] <toastydeath> and that's right out
[05:50:27] <FinboySlick> And for 'roughing'?
[05:50:30] <toastydeath> in aluminum, you are trying to deal with the fact that aluminum is gummy and loves to tear
[05:50:41] <toastydeath> so you HAVE to feed over enough to actually get it to cut cleanly
[05:50:51] <toastydeath> at the same time, provide a low surface roughness - which means a large tool nose radius
[05:51:00] <toastydeath> for roughing, with a two flute endmill?
[05:51:12] <FinboySlick> Yeah.
[05:51:18] <toastydeath> 160-240 ipm
[05:51:30] <toastydeath> .015 chipload on a big cutter
[05:51:38] <toastydeath> for you, finishing and roughing will be the same
[05:51:45] <toastydeath> because small cutters can't handle much chipload
[05:51:49] <toastydeath> even .005" might break your cutter
[05:52:03] <FinboySlick> I wouldn't dare go that high anyway.
[05:52:03] <toastydeath> you will have to keep it flooded or air blasted to clear the chips
[05:52:12] <toastydeath> aluminum hates tiny endmills
[05:52:18] <toastydeath> steel deals with them far better
[05:52:38] <toastydeath> stainless also hates them, as does titanium
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[05:56:11] <FinboySlick> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEk6uSvkgTs This is the same spindle and control as mine, but doesn't have linear ways.
[05:56:19] <FinboySlick> (that was for toastydeath)
[05:58:23] <toastydeath> nice
[05:58:43] <FinboySlick> So yeah, I don't expect to do any heavy hogging :P
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[06:14:00] <frysteev> ola peeps
[06:18:10] <Eartaker> 6961 is gummy... I like 7075
[06:18:15] <Eartaker> 6061*
[06:27:48] <Connor> Anyone use a Apron?
[06:27:59] <Connor> Looking for a good one and a face shield..
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[09:47:33] <automata> How do I install emc 2.6 which I have compiled over a live CD install...? Any instructions for doing this are available someplace?
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[10:21:47] <MOGLI> hello jthornton, i read plasma-5i20 config... is there any special reason to use Paraport for ARC GOOD and TOUCH OFF SINGAL?? cant we attach that to MESA Cards coz i am planning to use 7I43
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[10:31:32] <MOGLI> anyone can guide about THCAD???
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[10:43:23] <cncbasher> MOGLI> cannot see any reason why you cannot use any signal input
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[10:52:04] <andypugh> Are you awake pcw_home ?
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[11:05:18] <cncbasher> they'll all have their heads down i'd recon
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[11:05:33] <andypugh> Yeah, I was assuming so,
[11:05:51] <cncbasher> they seem to be getting a battering
[11:07:21] <andypugh> Sorry, are we having the same conversation?
[11:09:35] <cncbasher> think thier about 8 hrs behind us
[11:10:08] <cncbasher> so as well as night time , they may as well be in the midst of the hurricane too
[11:10:28] <cncbasher> seems to be causing some damage
[11:13:08] <andypugh> I think most of them are west-coast or middle
[11:14:22] <cncbasher> thats good , i was just looking on the weather radar over their and to see if it's missing most of our friends over their
[11:18:35] <jthornton> it's like 4am at Peters house...
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[11:19:28] <cncbasher> whats the weather where you are ?
[11:19:45] <jthornton> really nice today
[11:20:28] <cncbasher> presume your well away from the path of irene
[11:20:48] <jthornton> almost everyone is over here
[11:21:08] <cncbasher> sunny here in the UK but a bit of a strong breeze
[11:22:06] <jthornton> you get pncconf sorted out?
[11:22:21] <cncbasher> nope still problems
[11:23:06] <cncbasher> looking to see if i can get 2.5 loaded
[11:23:42] <cncbasher> which ever way i turn , i have problems loading pncconf
[11:24:57] <cncbasher> also pncconf appears to give a broken output file
[11:25:17] <cncbasher> so i'm looking at handcoding it all
[11:25:44] <jthornton> that is odd... I know there is an issue with the configs generated by 2.4 but that is fixed in 2.5
[11:26:14] <cncbasher> i'll load 2.5 from buildbot and see
[11:27:07] <cncbasher> or i'll revert git , not sure which is the best way , without screwing one or the other
[11:27:15] <jthornton> actually it is fixed in 2.4 but not released yet :/
[11:27:37] <jthornton> if you have git you just check out the 2.5 branch
[11:27:56] <cncbasher> yea i'll give it a go John
[11:27:58] <andypugh> it's easier to get it from the buildbot via package mangler
[11:28:49] <jthornton> has the buildbot deb been fixed so it does not mess up your menu?
[11:29:39] <cncbasher> what problem was that ?
[11:30:12] <jthornton> last time I installed the 2.5 deb it added and subtracted a few things from the EMC menu
[11:30:20] <andypugh> jthornton: I am not sure, I am so rarely in a position to use the menu to launch the version I want to use.
[11:30:30] <jthornton> not a deal breaker
[11:32:07] <cncbasher> ok
[11:32:16] <jthornton> cncbasher: what Mesa card do you have?
[11:32:38] <cncbasher> 7i43
[11:33:10] <jthornton> there is sample configs for the 7i43
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[11:34:20] <cncbasher> also usiing my own bit config , so i'll need to alter the hal file
[11:34:53] <jthornton> yea, you would need to use it as a base and build on that
[11:36:23] <cncbasher> the main reason was to ease the tuning stage of the steppers
[11:37:21] <jthornton> you can do that in Axis
[11:37:35] <cncbasher> ok 2.5 installed so here goes
[11:37:40] <jthornton> the only thing you should have to "tune" is the acceleration
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[12:04:28] <jthornton> I think a 5i25 7i76 would be the ticket for the plasma cutter
[12:22:20] * jthornton wonders where the bit file is for that???
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[12:32:31] <jthornton> bit file/firmware
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[12:35:03] <andypugh> I think you would need to get it from Mesa
[12:35:19] <jthornton> ok
[12:40:06] <jthornton> well it is SSST4_10_7I76X2 so the manual says...
[12:42:46] <andypugh> As the cards aren't supported by EMC2 yet, is seems unlikely that the firmwares are part of emc-firmware
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[12:47:10] <JT-Shop> I can't remember if anyone on the forum has that combo yet...
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[12:49:21] <andypugh> 5i25? Not as far as I know.
[12:50:17] <JT-Shop> maybe when pcw_home wakes up we can find out
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[12:50:37] <JT-Shop> it looks like a perfect combo for my plasma refit
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[14:15:35] <IG-garage> Worked at night. There was a 'Day of Coal Miner' at our town. There's the trash all around.
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[14:54:36] <JT-Shop> logger[psha]: log
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[17:17:19] <IchGuckLive> Hi all in the USA that servifed the storm
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[17:21:40] <IchGuckLive> jdhNC: still floodet
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[17:57:47] <automata> Why do I need to download 450MB of tex and associated documentation in order to build emc2-dev!!!
[17:58:19] <automata> that stuff takes 750 MB of precious space on my 8GB SSD!!! I am mad!!!
[17:58:41] <IchGuckLive> unklick the doc
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[17:59:03] <automata> is there a way to get build tools installed without having to install tex
[17:59:18] <West0n> Does anyone here have experience machining ceramics?
[17:59:41] <automata> I am following instructions on http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2 where you can install a emc2-dev on top of a live CD install
[17:59:42] <IchGuckLive> automata: there is a guide on the wikipedia page
[18:01:00] <IchGuckLive> West0n: ferrit ceramic with EDM
[18:02:08] <mikegg> to create the bitfiles used with hostmot2, do you just run bitgen on the XML file?
[18:02:14] <IchGuckLive> oh i need to go bye
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[18:03:08] <automata> doing a sudo apt-get build-dep emc2 also installs qt4 !!!
[18:03:19] <automata> Is there no better way?
[18:04:23] <West0n> Fancy ichgucklive
[18:04:40] <West0n> Was it for custom ferite corres?
[18:04:46] <JT-Shop> mikegg: you missing a bit file for ?
[18:05:15] <West0n> The ceramic I need to machine is PZT piezoelectric ceramic material
[18:05:38] <automata> JT-Shop: where did you get the info for making a live CD?
[18:06:16] <JT-Shop> google search came up with step by step
[18:06:26] <mikegg> oh, not missing one. I'm using TPEN6_6.bit with the 7i39H. But I need an additional pwmgen for the spindle...
[18:06:27] <JT-Shop> a Ubuntu web page I think
[18:07:23] <West0n> Its not conductive so I can't do edm
[18:08:59] <JT-Shop> mikegg: I don't think it is that simple but I might have remembered wrong
[18:09:02] <mikegg> I was hoping I could fumble my way through the process of creating a new bit file. everything I need to do is already there. just need to take the right chunks and combine them
[18:09:28] <West0n> My school has a cnc with a 15000 rpm spindle
[18:09:42] <West0n> I could put a small carbide bit in that?
[18:13:44] <mikegg> I think with carbide and ceramics you have a fairly narrow acceptable chip thickness window.
[18:13:57] <JT-Shop> mikegg: http://osdir.com/ml/emc-users-enhanced-machine-controller/2011-05/msg00030.html
[18:16:04] <automata> on doing a ./configure for compiling emc2.6pre~ I am getting an error "checking for Img using /usr/bin/tclsh8.5... configure: error: not found"
[18:16:19] <automata> I may be missing something called Img it seems..
[18:16:24] <automata> any ideas??
[18:17:40] <automata> I get it.. I am missing libtk-img and livreadline-dev and asciidoc
[18:19:17] <automata> another 26 Mb downloads!!
[18:24:11] <mikegg> JT-Shop: I've got the Xilinx tools - not the webpack. I can't figure out what to do with the VHD files, though. There's no "make Bit File" in the GUI that I can find
[18:24:45] <mikegg> there's a command line app "bitgen" thought that might be the ticket
[18:24:52] <JT-Shop> yea, that's all I could find
[18:25:26] <mikegg> hopefully PCW will drop in and set me straight sometime :)
[18:25:29] <JT-Shop> as I recall it is very specific as to the version of Xilinx
[18:25:47] <JT-Shop> I found something else in git... let me see if I can find it again
[18:26:45] <JT-Shop> readme file I think http://git.linuxcnc.org/gitweb?p=hostmot2-firmware.git;a=tree
[18:27:13] <JT-Shop> yea, pretty specific instructions there
[18:29:03] <mikegg> yahtzee
[18:31:54] <mikegg> is that a python script to build them? wow
[18:33:49] <JT-Shop> like a kid in a candy store now :)
[18:33:59] <Tom_itx> i think you need ghdl to do it
[18:34:01] <Tom_itx> but i'm not sure
[18:34:29] <Tom_itx> i think i'll have to install xilinx webpack on ubuntu to do it though
[18:34:40] <Tom_itx> or run cygwin
[18:35:03] <Tom_itx> you'd be better off running 9.2 webpack
[18:35:43] <Tom_itx> i grabbed the files from the git the other day to play with em but haven't yet
[18:37:43] <Tom_itx> i haven't done anything with webpack since 4.2 so i bet i have quite a learning curve
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[18:45:14] <cncbasher> any version of xilinx from 9.2 up will do , i use 10.2 and 13.1
[18:45:49] <Tom_itx> have you built bit files?
[18:46:04] <cncbasher> yes
[18:46:08] <Tom_itx> what is the procedure?
[18:46:41] <Tom_itx> edit the firmwares.txt and run the makefile?
[18:46:51] <cncbasher> yes just about
[18:46:59] <cncbasher> make a shell script
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[18:47:09] <Tom_itx> or do you do it from within webpack
[18:47:20] <cncbasher> no from the command line
[18:47:34] <Tom_itx> is ghdl required?
[18:47:42] <cncbasher> make a shellscript with the path to the ISE directory
[18:47:47] <Tom_itx> one place i read indicated it was
[18:48:03] <cncbasher> source the ise/settings32.sh
[18:48:10] <cncbasher> and then make
[18:48:20] <Tom_itx> i'm no linux guru
[18:48:25] <cncbasher> yes ghdl is needed
[18:48:41] <Tom_itx> but it may be easier to build there it seems
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[18:49:12] <Tom_itx> do you have an example script?
[18:49:23] <cncbasher> yes by all means
[18:49:34] <mikegg> that would great
[18:49:53] <Tom_itx> mind you.. this is for educational purposed mostly
[18:50:08] <cncbasher> ok what the best way of sending you the script fiell
[18:50:16] <cncbasher> file
[18:50:43] <cncbasher> i'll stick it on paste bin
[18:50:56] <cncbasher> give me a minute
[18:52:08] <Tom_itx> purposes*
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[18:52:16] <Tom_itx> i gotta reboot anyway
[18:52:21] <Tom_itx> bak in a flash
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[18:53:39] <cncbasher> http://pastebin.com/2AYJBRc1
[18:54:14] <cncbasher> you need to edit the paths to suit your location of files
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[18:55:20] <cncbasher> you then can edit the firmware.txt file to just build the versions you need rather than everything
[18:55:40] <cncbasher> i just commented out the lines not required
[18:55:42] <Tom_itx> logger[psha]
[18:56:12] <Tom_itx> thanks
[18:56:24] <Tom_itx> i was gone when you pasted it but i got it
[18:56:24] <cncbasher> no problem shout if your stuck
[18:57:53] <Tom_itx> do i need to edit the settings.sh for xilinx?
[18:58:30] <cncbasher> no you dont need to edit settings
[18:58:43] <Tom_itx> and since the example used a quad core i presume my -j would be -j2 since it's dual
[18:59:00] <Tom_itx> is the -j flag for the cores?
[18:59:01] <cncbasher> you can but it's not realy needed
[18:59:05] <Tom_itx> k
[18:59:16] <Tom_itx> i'll leave it at first
[18:59:24] <cncbasher> yea should be fine
[19:00:06] <cncbasher> you'll find once you run the batch file a sub directory called fw is made
[19:00:25] <cncbasher> then the compiled files and work files are created
[19:00:29] <Tom_itx> that's virtually what the readme says :)
[19:00:32] <cncbasher> within fw
[19:01:05] <JT-Shop> when you get it down pat make a wiki page :)
[19:01:11] <Tom_itx> haha
[19:01:21] <cncbasher> making the firmware for all can take an hour or so
[19:01:27] <Tom_itx> i know
[19:01:34] <Tom_itx> probably alot longer on my machine
[19:01:40] <cncbasher> but limit to the one you need takes 5 mins or so
[19:01:44] <Tom_itx> yeah
[19:02:25] <Tom_itx> well, first i think i'll install webpack on linux instead of windows
[19:02:30] <Tom_itx> that should take the rest of the day
[19:02:52] <mikegg> step two: http://hackaday.com/2011/08/22/fpga-bitcoin-miner-is-probably-the-most-power-efficient/
[19:03:01] <mikegg> step three: profit
[19:03:04] <mikegg> heh
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[19:05:18] <andypugh> West0n: I think it is more normal to make it the right shape. But you can grind it, I believe,
[19:06:24] <andypugh> automata: If it makes you feel any better, I have been using a full dev-install on an 8GB flash for a while now, and there is no shortage of space.
[19:07:43] <Tom_itx> i suppose i could put it on my SSD
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[19:19:58] <automata> andypugh: I actually want to see if I can reduce the amount of space required.. But the thing that bothered me most was that I had to download all the patches!! more than 1GB worth... of which most of it was tex!!!
[19:21:32] <automata> will the swap partition kill the SSD faster??
[19:21:33] <andypugh> I think the docs are optional at compiile-time, so you might be able to remove the packages again.
[19:21:59] <automata> I know it does kill flash installs faster....
[19:22:08] <andypugh> It hasn't killed mine yet, and that is about a year of compiling EMC2 several times a night.
[19:22:21] <Tom_itx> heh
[19:23:11] <automata> Flash drives have a limited number of writes... so having a swap partition on a flash drive will definitely leave a mark in the long run!!!
[19:25:11] <automata> FInally I have built emc2.6 and I am at 4.12 GB!!!
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[19:26:17] <andypugh> 3.82GB of G-code sounds like plenty of space.
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[19:33:05] <automata> andypugh: haha
[19:33:31] <automata> Actually I want to get a 4GB SSD (Save some money there...).
[19:33:52] <automata> And I want to mount it as read only... using aufs...
[19:34:10] <automata> but that is going to take a lot of reading...
[19:34:10] <archivist> you need plenty of space so you get wear spreading with the writes
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[19:44:01] <JT-Shop> archivist: yea I have to make a ratchet wheel with out a rotary or indexer
[19:44:33] <JT-Shop> http://imagebin.org/170038
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[19:44:45] * JT-Shop has to run get the backhoe up and running
[19:44:57] <JT-Shop> I will read back
[19:45:31] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop did you get my note about that?
[19:46:22] <Tom_itx> 6 holes at 60 deg and 4 at 15 deg in the other half of the jig will get it i think
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[19:48:19] <archivist> JT-Shop, make an arbour, mount on the mill in some holder(vice) and use any old gear on the same arbour as the index method, depends on accuracy needed
[19:49:17] <archivist> JT-Shop, use dovetail cutter / flycutter if this is just a one off
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[19:59:32] <FinboySlick> Eartaker: Passes are much smoother now.
[20:00:10] <FinboySlick> Eartaker: In fact, I had to move my lamp because light was reflecting off the machined surface and blinding me ;)
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[20:13:59] <Eartaker> =]
[20:15:05] <FinboySlick> Eartaker: Now to see if my CAD post processor is smart enough to do the same...
[20:15:22] <Eartaker> should be, just have to tell it to
[20:15:29] <Eartaker> what prgram?
[20:15:40] <FinboySlick> I'm testing HSMWorks.
[20:15:55] <FinboySlick> It makes some very nice curves.
[20:15:55] <Eartaker> hmm, never used that one
[20:16:29] <Tom_itx> ok i downloaded webpack and it says it's multi platform however it doesn't seem to be
[20:16:50] <Tom_itx> what's the easiest way to install it on linux?
[20:17:32] <FinboySlick> Eartaker: BRB, I'll show you some gcode.
[20:17:40] <Eartaker> what file type?
[20:17:43] <Eartaker> oh
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[20:18:38] <Tom_itx> it came as a zip and i unzipped it
[20:18:45] <Tom_itx> however it won't install
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[20:21:27] <FinboySlick> Eartaker: http://pastebin.com/8rBbaiQA It's probably way too agressive, but you'll get an idea of the kind of toolpaths it makes.
[20:22:44] <Eartaker> Fin is this in mm or in?
[20:23:29] <Eartaker> what is this going to make?
[20:23:40] <Eartaker> it looks fine at first glance
[20:23:51] <FinboySlick> Eartaker: mm, it's going to make one side of my chuck adapter plate.
[20:25:32] <Eartaker> what did you setup your DOC to be?
[20:26:26] <FinboySlick> On some passes, it goes down to 0.5" so way too agressive.
[20:26:45] <FinboySlick> (contouring)
[20:27:54] <Eartaker> I mean the only way to learn is to try but .5" is way to deep, you chould be able to setup step cuts
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[20:30:22] <FinboySlick> Eartaker: Yeah, ourse. As it is now though it's doing a full depth side of part clearing.
[20:30:34] <FinboySlick> 1117mm/min at 11000rpm.
[20:31:21] <Jymmm> Hey, whats the deal with 20# propane tanks? Something about the valves or OPD or some such thing?
[20:32:19] <FinboySlick> Eartaker: It defaults to 10mm stepdown, which still sounds pretty deep to me.
[20:32:51] <Eartaker> yeah 10.. step is, there should be a place to adjust it... im not sure where in your CAM program
[20:32:55] <Eartaker> I use Mastercam
[20:33:18] <FinboySlick> Eartaker: I can adjust it, i'm just wondering why it would use that kind of a default.
[20:33:55] <Eartaker> just as a starting point... the program has to have a value of some sort in there
[20:34:42] <FinboySlick> Eartaker: Most of the values seem tied to tool size and material. It keeps everything else very sane, I was wondering why not that one.
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[20:50:12] <andypugh> Is it a stupid idea to consider running my servo PSU through an SSR, and to control that SSR with a PWM signal? I am trying to think if a way to achieve a "soft" start that wont turn all the house lights off.
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[20:56:09] <pcw_home> If you could do phase control, maybe, so you need 100 Hz PWM in sync with your line voltage
[20:56:37] <andypugh> Do you have a bitfile for that? :-)
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[20:57:56] <pcw_home> I think thats software only and I'm not sure it would work (depends on if the SSR was fast enough)
[20:58:23] <andypugh> The SSR I have is a zero-crossing type anyway
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[20:58:54] <andypugh> I will see if the NTC surge-limiter does the job. With a torch in my hand/
[20:59:15] <pcw_home> That would get in the way (unless you wanted to do single full cycles with a gap between)
[20:59:37] <pcw_home> Big transformer?
[20:59:47] <andypugh> No transformer
[20:59:53] <andypugh> Big capacitors
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[21:00:44] <pcw_home> Yea NTC or big series resistor that get shorted out by relay when VBUS in OK
[21:01:46] <andypugh> I am not actually sure how you would check VBUS. Maybe a voltage-divider and a comparator?
[21:02:49] <pcw_home> Yes a low power comparator can run off a bleeder
[21:03:06] <andypugh> I already have a relay to crowbar down the caps when the power goes off. (with a 50R 100W resistor)
[21:03:49] <andypugh> It is in your interest to send me off down non-fatal but wrong paths, so that I need to buy replacement 8i20s.
[21:03:58] <andypugh> (I will need one more anyway)
[21:04:36] <pcw_home> A good non fatal one is reversed VBUS
[21:04:49] <pcw_home> non fatal but exciting
[21:05:09] <andypugh> I will see what I can do :-)
[21:06:22] <pcw_home> 400V 8I20 operation without a brake resistor and a really fast controlled stop is good as well
[21:07:07] <andypugh> I think I will need brake resistors. Any suggestion for wattage/resistance?
[21:07:57] <pcw_home> I think ~50 Ohms is good unless you are really pushing things
[21:08:33] <andypugh> No, I only have 500W motors and don't expect it to be moving all that fast.
[21:09:22] <andypugh> Can several 8i20s share a braking resistor? Or is that a stupid question?
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[21:09:40] <pcw_home> that would be ~3000W continuous but it will be less than a couple hundred or so
[21:11:14] <pcw_home> Yes they can share in the sense that if the 15A braking current is enough for all axis
[21:11:15] <pcw_home> and you have a common VBUS supply you cal let one 8I20 do all the braking
[21:12:13] <andypugh> Can one 8i20 control a motor and brake another at the same time?
[21:12:25] <pcw_home> If you need more current, each 8I20 needs its own resistor
[21:12:42] <andypugh> I guess if it is just an over-voltage dump then it probably can.
[21:13:00] <pcw_home> Yes the brake is really nothing more that a snubber
[21:13:00] <andypugh> At £3 each, I will probably give them one each.
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[21:13:26] <andypugh> But the packaging flexibility might be useful.
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[21:14:51] <pcw_home> If you use small resistors make sure you dont set brake voltages funny (like setting brake off higher than brake on)
[21:30:05] <Tom_itx> you need one like this: http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/temp/resistor2.jpg
[21:30:23] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/temp/resistor1.jpg
[21:30:58] <Tom_itx> err well maybe that's not big enough
[21:31:44] <Tom_itx> maybe a stove heating element
[21:36:13] <andypugh> These are cheap enough to use in parallel
[21:36:15] <andypugh> http://www.rapidonline.com/Electronic-Components/100W-High-power-resistors-TO-247-77299
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[22:32:29] <KimK> Also keep in mind, everyone, that if you are using a sliding-tap resistor as shown in the pictures above, and you adjust it to, say, 5% of the maximum resistance, you also get reduced to 5% of the maximum wattage.
[22:37:44] <Tom_itx> yup
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[23:53:58] <andypugh> pcw_home: Is there any likelyhood of multiple resolver instances (with different base addresses) and if there is, are they likely to have different numbers of resolver endpoints?