#emc | Logs for 2011-08-24

[00:00:26] <PCW> How fast are the valves?
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[00:00:58] <andypugh> And how are you driving the motors?
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[00:01:59] <YK> PCW: Do you mean how fast they can open and close? (also, assuming that I have the proper HAL file all written, then what would I have to do if the fully built robot were right next to me?) (how does the microcontroller play into all of this)?
[00:02:30] <YK> andypugh: a microcontroller is connected to 2 solenoid drivers (3 ch each) and 6 stepper drivers.
[00:02:33] <andypugh> microcontroller? You just added more complexity
[00:02:39] <PCW> Yes because that will determine the control bandwidth
[00:02:50] <PCW> yes, open and close
[00:03:08] <YK> andypugh: also I have to factor in the signals received from the encoders to the microcontroller
[00:04:08] <andypugh> Can I suggest you dump the microcontroller and give PCW $80 for a card that already has a well-developed EMC2 interface?
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[00:04:34] <PCW> Or just a couple parallel ports
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[00:05:40] <YK> andypugh and PCW: I don't understand. How much of the electronics that I've described is replaced by that card? Does the card have a quadrature counter CMOS/ can handle everything aforementioned?
[00:06:51] <andypugh> Yes, the cards do MHz stepgens and MHz quadrature counters
[00:07:37] <PCW> Not CMOS non-volatile count if you need that, But I suspect unless this system is quite big/slow
[00:07:38] <PCW> getting decent performance out of your control loop with the step/valve will be the main issue
[00:08:34] <YK> andypugh: So the card just substitutes for the microcontroller while the solenoid and stepper drivers are still necessary?
[00:09:10] <PCW> ( loop bandwidth is why people pay the big bucks for the Moog valves I suspect)
[00:09:37] <YK> PCW: Could you explain the issue to me more specifically? I've got half of what you mean, I think.
[00:10:51] <PCW> any lag in your control loop will limit its performance (limit the amount of gain you can have and still remain stable)
[00:11:34] <andypugh> My take in this: I am interested in your machine, and I want to make it work. I could probably knock up a HAL file to do it in a few hours, but not it we also need to write an interface to your microcontroller. I have no commercial connection to Mesa, and no financial interest, but I do know their stuff and how to make it work. However, other options exist, and you could probably manage with just parallel ports. You will hav
[00:11:34] <andypugh> encoder counts, but low rotational speeds.
[00:12:44] <PCW> Thats what I was thinking joint encoders dont count very fast unless really hi-rez
[00:14:00] <andypugh> 6 encoders and 6 stepgens is 30 IO. So just fits in two parports
[00:14:14] <andypugh> (Or does it?)
[00:16:02] <andypugh> YK: I assume because you are currently awake that you are in the US?
[00:17:02] <YK> andypugh and PCW: from what I can understand, a proper HAL file comprises the software (emc2) side of the control system. As for electronics, a few parallel ports to connect to the microcontroller? (the microcontroller can use a USB port connection- does that help?). Then from there to the solenoid and stepper drivers and so on. So what comes of the card consideration?) I am currently in Canada, though I do have a plan to go the the US at le
[00:17:09] <YK> testing) with OSE
[00:17:44] <andypugh> USB and EMC2 is a strong "no" at the moment
[00:18:12] <andypugh> Unless you want to pick up the abandoned RTAI USB project.
[00:18:25] <andypugh> (Which would be good if somebody did)
[00:18:49] <Tom_itx> what chipset is it based on?
[00:18:51] <Tom_itx> or is it
[00:19:01] <Tom_itx> ft232?
[00:19:15] <Tom_itx> or ftxxx something
[00:19:49] <YK> andypugh: Have I got the electronics right? (save the USB, so then I infer it would be all parallel port connections)
[00:20:16] <Tom_itx> or PCI
[00:20:29] <PCW> Most CNC systems using a 1 KHz velocity loop have (works out to about control loop bandwidth of 300-400 Hz) have maybe 20-50 Hz mechanical bandwidth
[00:20:31] <PCW> I would worry if this 300-400 Hz becomes 50 Hz due to valve operate time
[00:21:05] <andypugh> HAL is the Hardware Abstraction Layer. It is a software layer that maps the EMC2 state onto signals to physical hardware. For example axis positions come in to HAL from EMC2, are linked to step generators, and the step/dir signals are linked to parallel port pins. Or, the axis position is linked to an FPGA card which uses hardware to create the step/dir pulses on its own hardware pins.
[00:22:48] <andypugh> And PCW has a good point, unless you can go end-to-end in a few mS on the valves, it is going to be a hard machine to control.
[00:24:15] <andypugh> Though, having said that, a typical velocity-mode servo takes some time to reverse
[00:26:29] <YK> andypugh: Ok, I now understand how the steppers are controlled (what of the solenoid valves and encoders?). Do you think, with good enough steppers, decent performance is possible?
[00:26:36] <PCW> Right, the bandwidth could be pretty good for small signals, though how close this is to a pure velocity mode I do not know
[00:29:37] <YK> PCW: What determines the bandwidth?
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[00:31:25] <andypugh> I spent much of today tuning a PID controller on a car. The actuator is a small, PWM-controlled hydraulic shuttle valve. As it is fitted to a car it can't cost more than $10. I wonder if that would be useful? I suspect that the flow is too low, it actually controls the flow of a variable displacement pump. But then the pump output could control actuators.
[00:34:49] <andypugh> (oh, and for interest, the PID conroller has Pgain as the product of two 16x16 maps (oil temp X pressure, demand, pump speed x control delta), I is the product of three 16x16 maps, and Dgain is the product of two maps, with a variable differentiation period. I am drowning in degrees of freedom.
[00:36:12] <YK> andypugh: the hydraulic circuit operates with a parallel orientation with a single displacement pump, so the compatibility seems a bit off. That said, using just that shuttle valve and PID controller to replace the stepper-operated valve and driver might be possible (if the specs are right). So if this were compatible, what general benefits would arise?
[00:37:15] <YK> andypugh: disregard the first half of my last message. I misread)
[00:37:18] <PCW> Lots of things control loop bandwidth: how often the system is sampled, how much delay there is in getting position feedback, and how much delay there is in applying corrections...
[00:39:12] <andypugh> The shuttle valve is driven by a 250Hz PWM, and can go end-to-end in a few tens of mS. However, the flow rate is probably too small to be a primary control valve.
[00:39:31] <YK> PCW: Wouldn't sampling frequency and position feedback delay be determined purely by the encoder electronics? Ah ok so control loop bandwidth and corrective delay would improve, that much I directly understand.
[00:39:46] <andypugh> I was mainly suggesting that suitable actuators might exist in unlikely palces.
[00:39:55] <andypugh> (places)
[00:40:59] <PCW> Yes well sampling time would be EMC's servo thread period
[00:41:23] <andypugh> EMC2 can comfortably read position and recalculate demands at 5kHz, but if the control valves take 1 second to fully open, that is no help.
[00:42:42] <YK> andypugh: Whereas proportional servovalves control both flow and direction at prohibitive cost, separating those needs into a cheap regular solenoid valve for directional control and an inexpensive and quick flow control valve that allows high performance- this is what I interpret.
[00:43:33] <JT-Shop> sounds kinda like trying to build a silk purse from a sows ear
[00:43:51] <Danimal_garage> lol
[00:44:05] <Danimal_garage> John wears a purse?
[00:44:11] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: You've tried that huh?
[00:44:25] * JT-Shop smacks Dan on the back of the head
[00:44:36] <JT-Shop> Jymmm: just watched a few times
[00:44:42] <Jymmm> ...with his purse
[00:44:47] <andypugh> Clearly you can control systems with slow actuators, ship steam steering gear worked fine with latencies measured in seconds. What sort of traverse times and accuracies were you aiming for? To get a feel for your bandwidth requirements, simply divide your expected accuracy by your speed in units per second. The answer comes out in seconds, and that is approximately your required loop response time.
[00:45:57] <PCW> Yeah If I could just parallel this 2 millOhm 20V MOSFET with my .2 Ohm 500V MOSFET only when the 500V MOSFET was ON...
[00:46:04] * JT-Shop is under the influence of the Talking Heads
[00:47:41] <Danimal_garage> nice
[00:48:11] <Danimal_garage> are you wearing a giant suit?
[00:48:31] <YK> andypugh: I was shooting for repeatability of +/- 1mm and speed of 25.4cm/s (at the circumference of the rotation circle I assume) That comes to 0.004s.
[00:48:49] <andypugh> Well past time I was asleep. Good luck with your machine YK. I suspect we will be seeing a lot of you...
[00:49:08] <PCW> 'Nite
[00:49:24] <YK> andypugh and PCW: I appreciate your help, thanks a lot! Good night!
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[02:51:52] <count> Anybody around that can help with an issue with halrun ?
[02:58:17] <skunkworks_> ask
[02:59:06] <count> nevermind I just figured it out
[02:59:16] <count> I had to unwire a pin to set shit manually
[02:59:23] <count> trying to make my robot move via the cmdline
[02:59:26] <count> and then through pythonz
[03:00:04] <skunkworks_> neat
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[06:08:18] <Jymmm> Does SW have the concept of cut-to-length material, like a 2x4 or extruded aluminum? Or do you HAVE to create the part in advance of an assembly?
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[06:19:32] <alex_joni> Jymmm: you can create the part inside the assembly too
[06:19:37] <archivist> Jymmm, see toolbox materials
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[06:20:12] <archivist> not only standard bearing but also sections
[06:20:24] <Jymmm> Oh, where would I find the "toolbox"? I may not have that.
[06:20:39] <archivist> yes is an axtra
[06:20:42] <archivist> extra
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[06:21:07] <Jymmm> Ah, ok.
[06:21:25] <Jymmm> alex_joni: I didn't realize that.
[06:21:37] <archivist> iirc possibly "standard" extra
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[06:22:38] <Jymmm> Is there a way to change/link dimensions? Like if I create four sides of a box, then want to change the height of the box?
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[06:23:54] <Jymmm> archivist: Yeah, I'm not seeing anything like that on the menu. When I click on "Standard fasteners" is says toobox not available.
[06:24:09] <Jymmm> s/Standard/Smart/
[06:25:59] <archivist> may need to enable it if its sitting there
[06:36:22] <Jymmm> alex_joni: You sure about that? This is SW2004, while I can sketch in an assembly, I dont have the extrude tools available.
[06:37:10] <archivist> Jymmm, you select a face in an assembly then ...
[06:37:54] <Jymmm> I did, sketched a restangle, then when I went to extruded it, the extrude tool isn't there.
[06:39:06] <Jymmm> The "Extruded Boss/Base" that is.
[06:39:11] <Jymmm> -d
[06:40:23] <Jymmm> Just "Extruded Cut" is
[06:40:23] <archivist> select face. insert new part /me is on ubuntu so cannot see sw at the moment
[06:41:30] <archivist> the insert has new part not an existing!
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[06:44:59] <Jymmm> Ah, INSERT > COMPONENT > NEW PART...
[06:45:16] <Jymmm> ty
[06:51:39] <Loetmichel> mornin'
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[07:24:23] <alex_joni> Jymmm: yup, that's what I meant
[07:24:35] <alex_joni> sorry.. was stepped away
[07:24:47] <Jymmm> alex_joni: cool
[07:25:02] <alex_joni> it's usually the same for most 3d apps
[07:25:13] <alex_joni> which reminds.. I just got a Quadro Fx 3500 ;)
[07:25:19] <Jymmm> It's just not that obvious till you have a clue what you're looking for.
[07:26:07] <alex_joni> that's usually the case ;)
[07:26:07] <Jymmm> 3500, isn't that a bit dated?
[07:26:14] <alex_joni> yup, but quite ok
[07:26:19] <Jymmm> k
[07:27:15] <alex_joni> I had a 550 previously, so it's a bit of an upgrade ;)
[07:27:26] <Jymmm> lol, gotcha
[07:29:41] * Jymmm needs a 3/16" plate
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[07:52:52] <awallin_> tak a 6/16" and cut in half?
[08:18:21] <alex_joni> or take two 1.5/16" and glue together
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[08:23:55] <Tom_itx> 3/32
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[08:51:32] <awallin_> I know, take a 5mm plate and mill about 0.2495 mm off it, then it'll be just right (3/16)
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[10:24:16] <awallin_> anyone using Inkscape regularly? seems it crashes on me every time I try it. CorelDraw now seems a good reason to boot the machine into Win7!
[10:27:14] <psha[work]> awallin_: have not seen crushes at all
[10:27:44] <psha[work]> however i'm not using it since winter
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[10:54:23] <awallin_> I have Inkscape 0.48 on ubuntu 11.04, I seem to create a crash every time I use it :)
[10:55:32] <psha[work]> probably i've older version
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[12:16:22] <jthornton> elvis is back in yhe building
[12:16:44] <archivist> a rotting corpse?
[12:17:23] <Jymmm> s/ting/ted/
[12:17:40] <Jymmm> (I hope at least)
[12:18:09] <Jymmm> Should be in the fossel fuel category by now I'd think.
[12:19:02] <archivist> Ted is alright its Elvis that is rotting
[12:19:16] <Jymmm> Though, I prefer the MIB explanation.... back to his home planet.
[12:20:06] <jthornton> yhe/the
[12:20:23] <jthornton> forum nut
[12:21:18] <jthornton> http://www.linuxcnc.org/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,20/func,view/catid,9/id,6711/limit,6/limitstart,18/lang,english/#12711
[12:21:30] <Jymmm> Unless of course John just likes PB&B sandwiches, Catfish, and wears one piece leisure suits.
[12:22:14] <jthornton> peanut butter and baloney sandwiches?
[12:22:44] <Jymmm> PB & Bannana, but I think he liked fried baloney sandwiches too
[12:23:02] <jthornton> PB and Bacon maybe...
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[12:24:37] <jthornton> PB and Kippers maybe...
[12:24:56] <psha[work]> Jymmm: MIB collection of hidden aliens was great :)
[12:25:26] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peanut_butter,_banana_and_bacon_sandwich
[12:25:46] <Jymmm> psha[work]: Like Dennis Rodmen
[12:26:38] <psha[work]> Jymmm: exactly :)
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[15:02:58] <L84Supper> MakerBot somehow convinced http://foundrygroup.com/ to "invest" $20m into them for their crappy reprap knockoff
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[15:03:47] <L84Supper> there should be some EMC projects that should be able to pull off a similar feat of marketing slight of hand :)
[15:14:52] <archivist> we did have one "investor" look for opportunities a year or two ago on one of the mailing lists
[15:16:37] <JT-Shop> yea, I remember that
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[15:17:12] <archivist> did anyone reply to the entity
[15:17:29] <JT-Shop> I dont' know
[15:20:44] <L84Supper> Makerbot is the equivalent of a small Sherline that only works with two kinds of plastic
[15:21:07] <L84Supper> very limited applications
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[15:22:21] <L84Supper> rather than work on materials they will probably come up with some slick looking models for Christmas and then fade away
[15:23:40] <archivist> it is getting in the mainstream press so that would be a sensible thing to do anyway
[15:24:09] <L84Supper> EMC and Linux can control any machine, machine design for 3dp has been around for a long time, it's the materials that need development
[15:24:45] <L84Supper> makerbot was at CES, on lots of TV, they have lots of hype and sold 1K+ units
[15:26:08] <L84Supper> http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/388967/june-08-2011/sign-off---makerbot-head
[15:26:37] <L84Supper> http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/388966/june-08-2011/bre-pettis
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[15:27:33] <L84Supper> ‘So, we no longer have to rely on the Chinese for our pieces of plastic crap, right?' is my favorite line and really hits the nail on the head
[15:28:12] <jdhNC> chinese plastic crap has to be a lot cheaper than painfullly slowly extruded plastic crap
[15:28:59] <L84Supper> yeah, that is one of the main problems, SPEED
[15:30:42] <L84Supper> http://pp3dp.com/ I've considered manufacturing something similar only with EMC and the PC all in one
[15:31:17] <jdhNC> then you have to pay someone to change your filament in your extruder vs. free prison labor for chinese injection molding
[15:32:42] <L84Supper> reprap, makerbot and up! all rely on an external PC, they just buffer a few lines of G-code in their AVR controllers
[15:33:25] <Danimal_garage> i thought about moving my shop to Mexico, but screw China
[15:34:26] <Danimal_garage> however Mexico is a 40 minute drive for me so it's a little different
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[15:34:39] <L84Supper> with the dropping of the USD many companies have moved manufacturing to mexico for products destined for the US
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[15:36:00] <L84Supper> Danimal_garage: no tunnel from your backyard? :)
[15:36:05] <Danimal_garage> ha
[15:36:19] <JT-Shop> then when they can't get any quantity or quality the move back or go out of business
[15:36:43] <Danimal_garage> California is soooo unfriendly towards businesses, and mexico is easier than moving out of state
[15:37:08] <JT-Shop> are you outside of the kill zone?
[15:37:19] <Danimal_garage> kill zone?
[15:37:30] <JT-Shop> in Mexico
[15:37:47] <Danimal_garage> I'm close to Tijiuana
[15:37:56] <Danimal_garage> close as in 40 or so miles
[15:38:08] <Danimal_garage> not *too* bad there
[15:38:55] <Danimal_garage> i'd only consider going there just for the cheap rent and more slack regulations, i wouldn't change anything other than that
[15:39:12] <jdhNC> that and the cheap tequila, hookers, and weed.
[15:39:37] <L84Supper> do they have Taco Bells down there?
[15:39:40] <Danimal_garage> but then i couldn't say "made in USA", so i wouldn't anyways
[15:40:21] <jdhNC> Hecho en Mexico!
[15:40:26] <Danimal_garage> ha
[15:41:05] <L84Supper> we have one Dell Taco outside Chicago, I have to drive 50 miles for fish tacos
[15:41:16] <Danimal_garage> only reason i'm in business is because i'm one of the few that are still American made in the bike industry
[15:41:33] <Danimal_garage> lol
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[15:41:45] <Danimal_garage> i have a del taco on my street
[15:41:55] <jdhNC> only fish tacos I ever had were at a Padres game
[15:42:04] <L84Supper> yeah, what I miss about the west coast
[15:42:17] <Danimal_garage> really? where did you watch them?
[15:42:40] <jdhNC> at the stadium
[15:42:51] <Danimal_garage> in SD?
[15:42:54] <jdhNC> yeah
[15:43:02] <Danimal_garage> ah
[15:43:13] <jdhNC> wtf it was called then.
[15:43:22] <Danimal_garage> aren't you in NC?
[15:43:31] <jdhNC> yep
[15:43:45] <Danimal_garage> just came here for vacation?
[15:43:55] <L84Supper> http://chicago.craigslist.org/nwc/tls/2552910857.html is this some popular kit that this guy is selling?
[15:43:57] <jdhNC> did opening day with the padres one year... 94 maybe
[15:44:04] <L84Supper> Four Axis CNC System - $350
[15:44:25] <jdhNC> beat the hell out of opening day with the cubbies... it was freezing and wet
[15:44:30] <Danimal_garage> lol
[15:44:53] <Danimal_garage> most of my customers are in NC
[15:45:02] <L84Supper> they have to shovel snow out of the stands for opening day at Wrigley
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[15:46:18] <jdhNC> looks like a nifty lightweight package, same cheap chinese driver board
[15:46:33] <jdhNC> and a manual control
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[16:07:39] <Paragon-ws> Hello All...!
[16:07:52] <Paragon-ws> It's been awhile :-)
[16:14:30] <Loetmichel> re @ home (durch den weltuntergang ;-)
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[17:00:36] <IchGuckLive> for all those on the East cost Hurrican latest satelite track http://www.nrlmry.navy.mil/TC.html
[17:02:34] <jdhNC> it's going to be a wet & windy Saturday here.
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[17:09:42] <A2Sheds> earthquakes, now hurricanes, what's the locust report?
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[17:10:58] <jdhNC> we had two tornadoes this week also
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[17:14:06] <IchGuckLive> nice to live in the southeast
[17:14:31] <IchGuckLive> jdhNC: witch state ?
[17:14:45] <jdhNC> nc, on the coast
[17:15:03] <jdhNC> and my boat is in the water at the marina
[17:15:13] <IchGuckLive> is irean expacted to go that fare ?
[17:15:42] <jdhNC> last few updates have it pushing further off shore. We should just get TS force winds
[17:16:06] <IchGuckLive> thats enoph to sink your boad
[17:16:33] <jdhNC> two bilge pumps, four batteries
[17:17:50] <IchGuckLive> so you hope it goes offshore
[17:18:18] <IchGuckLive> the path is alalong the eastcost up to boston
[17:18:19] <jdhNC> or in the gulf, or up north or down south. Pretty much anywhere but here is good with me.
[17:18:35] <IchGuckLive> B)
[17:19:21] <IchGuckLive> we all cross our fingers for you
[17:20:14] <jdhNC> thanks! The weather channels will usually report it wiping out everything on the east coast
[17:20:45] <jdhNC> they usually send some poor sap here to go stand at the beach being filmed in the wind/rain/surf.
[17:21:23] <IchGuckLive> i see it on CNNI
[17:21:46] <IchGuckLive> filmed behind thick Brick wals
[17:22:28] <jdhNC> it needs to come and go quickly so I can clean up afterwards. I'm going to florida for 5 days of diving next Wed.
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[17:22:55] <IchGuckLive> today here all the US stuff came in late and tierd 3hr Thunderstorm and a poweroutige
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[17:27:36] <automata> Hi, is there any documentation about creating you own BDI iso installation
[17:28:47] <IchGuckLive> 9001 ?
[17:29:23] <IchGuckLive> 26000
[17:30:59] <IchGuckLive> automata: on the BDI eu side is a workaround workshop
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[17:38:06] <automata> IchGuckLive: Huh? workaround workshop? eu side? Can you please elaborate?
[17:39:09] <automata> I am trying to roll an EMC which starts from a known good state of the OS and directly starts EMC.
[17:39:33] <automata> Just like a hardware controller which starts up on application of power.
[17:40:37] <automata> The PC will have only a DOM which will be used for booting. G code files will be loaded using a USB stick.
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[17:41:23] <IchGuckLive> automata: make a SH
[17:41:57] <IchGuckLive> and the usb stick you can put under the ini for loadig by click
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[17:42:36] <automata> Also on power down, we don't have to bother about the harddisk getting corrupted as the next boot will be from the known good ISO image.
[17:42:54] <automata> SH?
[17:43:22] <cpresser> automata: in this case you might want to check the linux-live scipts
[17:43:22] <IchGuckLive> a file that starts your aplication on startup sh oe bin bash
[17:43:50] <cpresser> they take an existing installation and put its content into squashfs-files (read only)
[17:44:23] <cpresser> i did a setup like this once (not with emc but vdr)
[17:44:45] <cpresser> downside of this is that you need a vast knowlege of linux and its booting-process to troubleshoot problems
[17:44:48] <automata> cpresser: That is what I am aiming for.
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[17:45:18] <IchGuckLive> bye for me today B)
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[17:45:35] <automata> cpresser: well I have all week ;-) .
[17:45:54] <psha> automata: install distribution and then make root partition read-only
[17:46:08] <cpresser> www.linux-live.org
[17:46:18] <psha> it needs some knowledge of linux internals but in the end you'll get system where you may plug out power cord and nothing will be corrupted
[17:46:26] <cpresser> psha: in that case you would need a writable /var /tmp ... and so on
[17:46:33] <psha> cpresser: no
[17:46:41] <psha> unionfs/mini_fo + ramdisk
[17:46:43] <cpresser> most applications even require write-access to /home
[17:46:59] <psha> all writes to /tmp and /var will be lost
[17:47:04] <cpresser> unionfs on the complete root-fs might be an option, right :)
[17:47:23] <psha> also you may make root fs on squash and load it to ram too :)
[17:47:30] <psha> i've such setup on my home router
[17:47:54] <psha> usb stick used as root partition is not reliable and usually triggers problem after week or two
[17:48:00] <cpresser> basically that is what those linux-live scripts do :)
[17:48:02] <psha> so i've switched to 'diskless' setup
[17:48:22] <psha> with debian based distros which are using initramfs for initrd it's very simple
[17:48:23] <cpresser> but i would recommend to use aufs instead of unionfs; i had less much trouble with it
[17:48:35] <psha> just one or two scripts of several dozens of lines
[17:48:51] <psha> unionfs is just example - i really don't remember what's used on my setup
[17:49:02] <psha> in openwrt mini_fo is used - that's for sure
[17:49:25] <automata> Where do you start?
[17:49:38] <automata> linux-live.org seems to be down at the moment..
[17:50:18] <psha> automata: look at docs for initramfs
[17:50:52] <psha> boot process is divided into several stages and all you need is to plug small script into correct one
[17:52:15] <cpresser> take a look at an existing live-cd (knoppix, ...) and see how it works
[17:53:04] <psha> automata: http://psha.org.ru/tmp/usbram
[17:53:15] <psha> example script to load filesystem from usb device to ramdisk
[17:53:41] <psha> living in local-top directory
[17:53:45] <cpresser> basically you just install your regular system (=target) on a hard-drive. once its up and running, you boot into a 'build'-system and convert your target system into a squashfs-file-system. then you build a initrd-image which loads this squashfs-file and mounts a union-fs on top. done.
[17:54:14] <psha> ah, sorry, it's a bit outdated
[17:54:47] <cpresser> your first step would be to have a kernel up and running which supports both RTAI and some kind of union-fs
[17:55:23] <psha> cpresser: i bet it's not a problem - if rtai kernel is based on ubuntu one
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[17:55:41] <psha> automata: http://psha.org.ru/tmp/usbram_ram
[17:55:45] <psha> automata: http://psha.org.ru/tmp/usbram_aufs
[17:55:54] <psha> that's looks like better candidate :)
[17:56:13] <psha> and it's used 'in production' for more then year without any sign of failure
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[17:57:15] <automata> psha: can you please describe your setup.
[17:57:31] <psha> usb stick with squashfs filesystem file
[17:57:36] <cpresser> a few years ago when i did my first setup like this, i manually had to add unionfs, squashfs, lirc and madwifi into the kernel. this was a bit tricky :)
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[17:57:42] <psha> loaded to ramdisk (usbram_ram script)
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[17:58:02] <psha> then overlayed with tmpfs (usbram_aufs script)
[17:58:09] <psha> you need only last one
[17:58:24] <psha> if you have reliable disk - my usb stick may disconnect at any time :)
[17:58:31] <psha> that's why i've created such setup
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[17:59:07] <automata> I have done a lot of linux kernel work about 8-10 years ago (in 2.2 and 2.4). Was working in the Nomad XR4000 robots back then...
[18:00:03] <automata> But have not kept up with 2.6 changes since 2005.
[18:00:08] <psha> squashfs is used to minimize memory footprint - it's about ~235MB
[18:00:19] <psha> full blown debian install
[18:00:41] <psha> and 20mb are used in tmpfs after 78 days of uptime
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[18:01:10] <automata> But that would increase the boot time (due to un-compressing the file system during boot)..
[18:01:30] <cpresser> automata: no. squashfs extraxts its contents on the fly
[18:01:34] <psha> not much - slowest part is reading from usb stick
[18:01:44] <psha> squashfs is uncompressed on the fly
[18:01:52] <psha> when you access files
[18:02:15] <psha> however it's faster then reading from stick directly
[18:02:26] <psha> board is atom D510MO
[18:02:28] <automata> I have an 8GB SSD connected over SATA. so squashfs is not a requirement.
[18:02:47] <psha> yes, that's why i've mentioned that you need only second script with tmpfs
[18:03:28] <cpresser> in that case just do a regular install of emc2; then update your boot-proces (the initrd) to mount your root-filesystem as RO and overlay a tmpfs; no need to to additional stuff then
[18:03:41] <automata> I am also experimenting with a 2 GB DOM. My mother board D425KT (atom) has a slot for a DOM mount..
[18:03:54] <cpresser> have a second (regular) initrd as backup in case you want to do changes to your system
[18:04:25] <cpresser> stick them both into the boot-manager and voila, your done :)
[18:05:33] <psha> cpresser: better to have script that understands /proc/cmdline
[18:05:46] <psha> then you don't need extra initrd - just give some params or remove them
[18:06:10] <psha> usbram_aufs is what he needs :)
[18:06:33] <cpresser> that is also a valid solution; as always with linux there is more than one way^^
[18:06:49] <psha> :)
[18:09:12] <automata> Started reading along all vectors suggested...
[18:10:22] <automata> interesting primer on read-only file systems: http://www.logicsupply.com/blog/2009/01/27/how-to-build-a-read-only-linux-system/
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[18:15:36] <psha> automata: it explains in more details things that we were discussing here
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[18:27:38] <automata> another interesting read: http://guciek.net/read_only_root_filesystem/en
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[18:40:39] <Danimal_garage> yawn
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[19:19:14] <Danimal_garage> hmm so my linear rails are do in tomorrow
[19:19:45] <Danimal_garage> guessi should start making the brackets and whatnot
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[19:56:49] <automata> interesting read for mounting the root file system as read-only: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/aufsRootFileSystemOnUsbFlash
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[21:38:56] <Danimal_garage> 3 more parts and i can go to lunch!
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[22:39:30] <fritzgutten> hey all
[22:41:41] <andypugh> Hai!
[22:41:53] <fritzgutten> i've got some questions about using a cnc4pc c6 board on my seig x2
[22:42:14] <andypugh> Don't tell us you have questions, just ask them :-)
[22:42:27] <jdhNC> I've got some 26% accurate answers
[22:42:45] <Tom_itx> that good?
[22:43:13] <fritzgutten> :) ok, i'm wanting to understand whats happening when i change my hal file to make the c6 work
[22:43:20] <andypugh> My answers are a claimed 100% accurate, for suitable interpretations of "accurate"
[22:43:31] <fritzgutten> any good tutorials besides the integrator manual?
[22:43:38] <fritzgutten> LOL
[22:44:03] <andypugh> C6 is a PWM to voltage board, I think?
[22:44:56] <fritzgutten> i think the output may have to be frequency variable? i'm a bit confused on that as well
[22:45:18] <andypugh> Ah, no, step-dir to voltage. That sounds like it is meant for Mach3 users (and, at $36 it would actually be cheaper to connect a small potentiometer to a stepper motor)
[22:45:44] <fritzgutten> I've found some "working" hal files but they dont work for me.
[22:46:06] <fritzgutten> ah yeah, i actually thought about doing that, maybe i should have
[22:46:24] <andypugh> It's a horrible kludge, don't.
[22:46:54] <andypugh> But you can actually do it with a resistor and a capacitor.
[22:47:00] <jdhNC> http://cnc4pc.com/Files/EMC2.txt
[22:47:19] <fritzgutten> yeah... that actually breaks emc
[22:47:21] <andypugh> Anyway, you have the board, it's opto-isolated and you might as well use it.
[22:47:59] <fritzgutten> those are my thoughts, that and it was a gift from the girlfriend, i'd like to say it works and be honest ;)
[22:48:06] <andypugh> EMC2 rarely breaks without telling you why. Not that it is always easy to find _where_ it has told you the problem.
[22:48:59] <fritzgutten> theres a popup after emc2 closes, but has been pretty tough for me to decypher
[22:49:40] <fritzgutten> a couple of times it gave me specific line conflicts, but other than that i couldnt make heads or tails of it
[22:49:46] <andypugh> Is the EMC2 machine in the just-broken state now? If so, can you paste the result of "dmesg" in the terminal window to www.pastebin.org (or www.pastebin.com, depending on which one is working)
[22:50:28] <andypugh> <aside> Why don't we create a pastebin.linuxcnc.org?
[22:50:40] <fritzgutten> huh, i can try it and see, i was a bit blurry eyed last night when i stopped working on it
[22:51:15] <andypugh> if you have restarted the machine, you probably need to crash it again first ;-)
[22:54:22] <fritzgutten> well, emc2 isnt "broken" but it still doesnt run my spindle. is there a way to watch what signals are being sent while running emc?
[22:54:52] <jdhNC> did you check the voltage output of the board?
[22:56:18] <fritzgutten> well, i havent been able to make the board do anything, so i cant get a voltage out of it. theres a pot to change its output, but i wasnt able to get anything out of it
[22:57:50] <andypugh> yes, you can see absolutely anything happening in HAL with Halscope.
[22:58:11] <andypugh> It's a software Oscilloscope that lets you track every pin and every signal.
[22:58:41] <andypugh> (it's possibly EMC2's "killer app" to be hinest)
[22:58:44] <fritzgutten> huh, i will try it, any special instructions?
[22:58:50] <andypugh> Machine->Halscope
[22:59:04] <andypugh> takes a bit of geting used to, but just ask.
[23:02:08] <andypugh> You can paste your HAL file to pastebin if you want, we can probably spot the problem.
[23:02:34] <jdhNC> unless the problem exists outside
[23:05:56] <fritzgutten> ok, i'm going to switch machines to streamline this, it may take me a few minutes to get back on. so far hal scope is not showing activity on my chosen pins. be back asap. thank you gentle people!
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[23:15:48] <fred_> well, that was slow and painful
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[23:17:18] <Guest91935> i've checked my spindle on and my parprt pins and am seeing no activity for signaling the on board relay or a speed change
[23:20:23] <andypugh> pastebin the HAL?
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[23:20:45] <Guest91935> ive got my hal file up on pastebin. minimill.hal
[23:21:32] <andypugh> URL?
[23:21:59] <andypugh> Fund it
[23:22:02] <Guest91935> http://pastebin.com/5SX8v2uC sorry, im a newb
[23:22:04] <andypugh> (found)
[23:26:10] <andypugh> Hmm, which physical pins are connected to the C6>
[23:26:43] <Danimal_garage> yay, the metal supply place down the road gave me a nice piece of aluminum tooling plate for free
[23:26:56] <Danimal_garage> now i should have everything i need to finish my cnc engraver
[23:26:59] <andypugh> Did you get me some too?
[23:27:10] <Guest91935> 14 and 16, 16 should be spindle enable or spindle cw, and 14 should be my freq out
[23:27:22] <Guest91935> nice!
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[23:27:39] <ds3> 9
[23:28:15] <Jymmm> DS9, 3 of 7
[23:28:17] <Danimal_garage> andypugh: no, sorry
[23:28:50] <Danimal_garage> i spend enough on aluminum there on the norm anyways, about time i get a freebie
[23:31:31] <Jymmm> Danimal_garage: where?
[23:31:48] <Jymmm> Danimal_garage: you're in stockton aren't you?
[23:31:56] <andypugh> Guest91935: Common problem, worth checking. M3 does nothing without S (some number > 0). Are you doing that?
[23:32:45] <Guest91935> uh, i guess i hadnt tried that, i was using the on screen buttons, let me try
[23:33:52] <andypugh> In the case of on-screen buttons, you need to click direction, then + + +
[23:35:32] <Danimal_garage> San Diego
[23:35:42] <Jymmm> Danimal_garage: ah
[23:36:44] <Jymmm> ds3: Hey you know of any local place that sells various aluminum extrusions? F, H, h, T, Z, etc?
[23:37:52] <ds3> Jymmm: tried metal supermarkets?
[23:37:59] <Jymmm> ds3: Yep
[23:38:25] <ds3> then nope. had't had a need for that
[23:38:28] <ds3> what are you building?
[23:38:43] <Jymmm> cutting table for the laser
[23:39:10] <ds3> powered Z?
[23:39:20] <ds3> and a honeycombed top?
[23:39:35] <Jymmm> ds3: I have the honeycomb, just need to make a box for it
[23:40:10] <Jymmm> yes, powered Z
[23:40:23] <ds3> did you try that aluminum place on DeLaCruz?
[23:40:32] <Jymmm> Rem Center?
[23:40:35] <ds3> across from the old location of western tools
[23:40:40] <ds3> not sure of the name
[23:41:04] <Jymmm> Its Aluminum Rem Center, they carry billets and rods, not extrusion
[23:41:10] <ds3> been tehre once and their prices were shocking compared to metal supermarket
[23:41:26] <Guest91935> andypugh: getting no where with either m3 s100 or using on screen buttons
[23:41:28] <Jymmm> And Western Tool moved too btw
[23:41:34] <ds3> yes, closer to 101
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[23:43:01] <Guest91935> andypugh: i do i need "loadrt classicladder_rt"?
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[23:44:16] <andypugh> Open HalMeter, look at the spindle-cmd signal, and the motion.0.spindle-speed-out pin
[23:44:28] <andypugh> No, feel free to delete that line
[23:44:39] <Jymmm> ds3: You know anyone with a mill that could face a 2x2" angle aluminum 1/8" thick?
[23:45:04] <ds3> how long?
[23:45:05] <Jymmm> 1/8" wall that is
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[23:45:13] <Jymmm> ds3: 25" max
[23:45:20] <ds3> oh standard bridge port stuff
[23:45:40] <ds3> yes, I do know a guy up in redwood city...he has a shop there
[23:46:01] <ds3> wonder if you can just pester someone at the JC to do it
[23:46:08] <Jymmm> ds3: Ew Redwood City... you know how much he might charge?
[23:47:09] <ds3> Jymmm: no but he is often okay with exchanging favors. he works (not sure now) part time at DeAnza's machining dept
[23:48:43] <Jymmm> ds3: Any way you can find out if he's ever at DeAnza? I'd be happy to stop by there.
[23:48:59] <ds3> let me check the current sched. one sec
[23:49:02] <Jymmm> k
[23:49:20] <Guest91935> motion.spindle-speed-out is showing response
[23:49:41] <Guest91935> i dont see a spindle-cmd
[23:50:16] <ds3> looks like he has stuff scheduled for fall
[23:50:27] <Jymmm> ds3: bummer
[23:50:56] <ds3> eh?
[23:51:04] <ds3> you don't want him to be there or???
[23:51:35] <Jymmm> ds3: No, I want to be there NOW, not just in the fall =)
[23:51:51] <ds3> oh... problem is this is still summer session
[23:51:59] <andypugh> spindle-cmd should be in the "signals" tab
[23:52:14] <ds3> they only offer an intro class in the summer which is manual stuff; he is a CNC guy
[23:52:32] <Jymmm> ds3: Right, which doens't do me much good now.
[23:52:51] <Guest91935> ok, i'm blind, its showing the same response
[23:52:57] <ds3> actually this might be the break
[23:53:30] <andypugh> Guest91935: Scale.0.in and scale.0.out?
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[23:53:32] <Jymmm> ds3: Of course, just my luck
[23:54:06] <ds3> 6/27 to 8/6 only
[23:54:25] <ds3> his shop is a business... I just need to remember the name