#emc | Logs for 2011-08-21

[00:02:26] <KimK> Tom_itx: Yes, still here.
[00:03:11] <KimK> frysteev: It's pretty common to find 24VDC brakes. Spring-set, electric-release.
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[00:27:54] <KimK> Tom_itx: Just got back from Spangles. Elvis is looking good, but he didn't say much.
[00:29:51] <KimK> http://www.spanglesinc.com/
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[02:31:03] <Tom_itx> some have marilyn too
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[13:11:12] <Guest429> Hi, I just downloaded the Live-CD of Ubunty 10.04 with emc 2.4x and burnt the CD. According to the web site, I could boot from the CD and it would let me run the program without installation. However when I booted from the CD, it came up in German. Since I am in the US, and am not Amish, I don't know German. I tryed to get out of it, and eventully did, but now when I boot my computer up, I get some German boot partiion manager. How do I g
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[13:47:26] <elmo40> wow. something seriously went wrong with his liveCD!
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[14:20:44] <jthornton> how do you do that?
[14:21:02] <Tom_itx> can't read your native language
[14:23:39] <JT-Shop> oh if your busy clicking and shooting when it starts you could select some other language
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[14:30:10] * JT-Shop finally finds the formula for the differential windlass pi(r − r')
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[14:59:24] * JT-Shop ponders if making one to draw back the Ballista would be fun and practical or not...
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[15:11:24] <JT-Shop> so as I understand pi((radius of big drum) - (radius of small drum)) will give me the net change in length of the turn around sheave
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[15:27:02] <aggrav8d> hi, emc.
[15:27:41] <aggrav8d> I have a carbide V bit meant for wood and I want to engrave a design into the lid of an altoids tin. I've never tried metal before. Can I do it, and what do I need to know?
[15:27:46] <aggrav8d> my minimum RPM is 10k.
[15:29:26] <cpresser> aggrav8d: how thick is the metal? i dont suspect it to be more than 0.5mm
[15:29:46] <Tom_itx> aggrav8d, back the tin up with a solid piece
[15:29:52] <aggrav8d> i think you are correct, it's very thin. I don't plan to engrave deeply.
[15:29:53] <Tom_itx> and make sure it's flat
[15:30:02] <cpresser> so it will be quite hard to set your zero z (since the tin most likely is not prefect flat); try to put something under it
[15:30:27] <Tom_itx> what he said
[15:30:51] <aggrav8d> ok, what about the bit, am i going to destroy it trying to do this? what kind of feed rate can I expect to get away with?
[15:31:01] <cpresser> also: better do more runs with incrementing zero z (first runs will be completely in the air)
[15:31:27] <cpresser> what kind of bit is this? which size is the flat of the tip?
[15:31:35] <Tom_itx> meh, he's only gonna be cutting a thousandth or so anyway
[15:32:24] <aggrav8d> it's a V groove bit
[15:32:26] <Tom_itx> maybe better to set zero off the workpiece under the tin and mic the tin
[15:32:35] <Tom_itx> then raise it that much
[15:32:35] <aggrav8d> mic the tin?
[15:32:47] <Tom_itx> measure how thick it is
[15:32:57] <Tom_itx> in several spots since it's stamped out
[15:33:28] <cpresser> i am talking about this: http://www.bk-faserverbundtechnik.at/shop/images/Stichel_Stichelsatz_Gravierstichel_CNC_Frase.jpg
[15:33:48] <cpresser> those things have a different size of the flat part at the tip
[15:33:58] <Tom_itx> those are nice, where did you get em?
[15:34:07] <cpresser> Tom_itx: google :)
[15:34:11] <Tom_itx> heh
[15:34:18] <cpresser> but i own some that are quite similar
[15:34:30] <Tom_itx> i needed something like that when i did my pendant but was too lazy to grind one
[15:34:33] <cpresser> the shop website is sorotec.de (german!)
[15:34:35] <JT-Shop> you might have better luck with a pointy thing and just dot it as the lid will not be flat
[15:34:38] <Tom_itx> so i used a center drill
[15:35:17] <Tom_itx> or use a scribe as a cutter and leave the spindle off
[15:35:19] <Tom_itx> :)
[15:35:42] <JT-Shop> yea
[15:38:08] <cpresser> when i do engraving with bits like in the above picture; i set my spinde to about 20k rpm; use spray-cooling (water with isopropanol); feed-rate is about 1200mm/min (450in/min); most important is that the to be engraved area is perfectly in the X-Y-Plane
[15:39:54] <cpresser> i try go get only 0.1-0.2mm depth per pass
[15:40:30] <cpresser> those tools are not that strong, you can easily break them by just litte to much force
[15:41:23] <aggrav8d> JT-Shop - pointilism? hadn't considered it.
[15:41:29] <elmo40> cpresser: nice bits! i like the options. are they all flat bottom?
[15:41:43] <aggrav8d> i don't have software to generate the dots.
[15:42:00] <elmo40> oh, there is someone who made that software... let me try to locate it
[15:42:56] <cpresser> aggrav8d: in the worst case: use a CAD-program, set all lines to 'dotted'; then break the lines open. voila: you got dots :)
[15:42:57] <Loetmichel> hmmm, the poolheater-coil v2 is better... bur far from optimal. that will take a while to get the 6m^3 pool to decent 25c: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12274
[15:43:00] <aggrav8d> my machine only runs to 80ipm, so I'm way slower than you.
[15:43:18] <aggrav8d> uh, i don't have that kind of cad program.
[15:43:24] <cpresser> qcad can do this
[15:43:24] <aggrav8d> i can't set line style.
[15:43:44] <cpresser> elmo40: i dont exactly understand you question? istn the picture clear about the flats?
[15:44:10] <elmo40> i suppose so. are there rounded tip versions?
[15:44:41] <cpresser> cant tell for sure. i never tried to buy rounded engraving bits
[15:46:36] <John_f_> I think I know what went wrong with Guest429 CD. He didn't make an ISO image. That is similar to what happend to me the first time I tried to make a live CD several years back.
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[15:50:46] <elmo40> John_f_: but what did he make? he said there was a German all over. What would it 'boot' into?
[15:53:09] <John_f_> I just burned a CD. You get some kind of German menu like he described. It never get to Ubuntu or anything usefull
[15:54:10] <John_f_> Then I read the dirctions and burned an ISO image. Everything worked fine.
[15:54:36] <JT-Shop> you might have selected german by accident on the first bootup
[15:54:54] <JT-Shop> at first it gives you the option to select a language
[15:55:18] <John_f_> I don't think so. If it is not the ISO image it does some crazy stuff
[15:56:43] <JT-Shop> did you verify the md5sum of the downloaded file?
[15:57:25] <JT-Shop> does it come up with two little icons on the bottom center of the screen at first?
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[15:58:12] <John_f_> no just some text in german. This was a few years ago so I don't remember all the details.
[15:58:55] <JT-Shop> must be a very old LiveCD then
[15:59:42] <JT-Shop> this should be the first screen https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCD
[16:00:04] <John_f_> well it was. I think it was 6.06. I just remember that is sounded al lot like what happend to Guest429
[16:00:22] <JT-Shop> oh, I thought you were him
[16:01:00] <JT-Shop> I'd bet he was pointing and clicking so fast he selected German without even knowing
[16:04:18] <John_f_> John_f_ returns to his masonry project after finding the dimond saw in his shop..... by. for now
[16:04:27] <aggrav8d> anyone know why the time estimate in EMC2 is so far off?
[16:04:43] <aggrav8d> i find it's usually ~30% of the actual time.
[16:05:49] <Tom_itx> machine and tool times set right?
[16:07:22] <JT-Shop> aggrav8d: it does not take into account acceleration and deceleration
[16:07:55] <JT-Shop> it is merely the sum of the rapid and feed moves time
[16:09:13] <aggrav8d> aha.
[16:09:18] <aggrav8d> that's... kind of pointless.
[16:09:30] <aggrav8d> how am i supposed to get a time estimate in order to quote a customer?
[16:10:43] <Tom_itx> take the time and add 39%
[16:10:51] <Tom_itx> 30%
[16:10:55] <Tom_itx> :)
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[16:11:56] <archivist> cut air and measure if fussy else multiply by a sensible number and add a margin
[16:12:08] <JT-Shop> you have to purchase $10,000 CAM program for that
[16:13:08] <JT-Shop> write a script to count the number of moves and multiply the result by a factor than equates to your machine actual time
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[16:22:15] <dgarr> for time estimate i think you could configure a sim machine with the same max velocities and accelerations and then time the run on the simulator
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[16:23:11] <JT-Shop> Hi Dewey!
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[16:23:28] <JT-Shop> put my time comp on that and there you go
[16:23:42] <JT-Shop> aggrav8d: have you seen my time comp?
[16:24:15] <dgarr> yeah -- less than $10000 -- just modify an existing sim configuration
[16:25:53] <dgarr> my new pendant: http://www.panix.com/~dgarrett/stuff/lpendant.jpg
[16:27:06] <JT-Shop> dgarr: you have some more space left for another button or three... looking good
[16:27:35] <JT-Shop> but I wonder why not a selector switch and only one MPG
[16:27:35] <dgarr> space but no more pins
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[16:28:06] <dgarr> i made too many mistakes with just one mpg, three is so convenient
[16:28:26] <JT-Shop> ah switch in wrong position... I do that too
[16:28:58] <dgarr> i used a cheap, mechanical encoder switch for feed-override -- it seems ok for that purpose
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[16:37:22] <andypugh> dgarr: I am dissapointed that it isn't in an ornate wooden box :-)
[16:40:51] <dgarr> not a good faraday shield;-)
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[16:48:19] <aggrav8d> JT-Shop i have not seen your time comp
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[16:48:54] <aggrav8d> dgerr - nice, but no room for labels?
[16:49:11] <aggrav8d> if i build a pendant I'll use a capacitive touch screen.
[16:50:05] <JT-Shop> http://git.linuxcnc.org/gitweb?p=emc2.git;a=blob;f=src/hal/components/time.comp;h=a318d4e4cfad32a81f8ac69e33b8cca33556f57a;hb=HEAD
[16:50:32] <JT-Shop> aggrav8d: it is in 2.5
[16:51:31] <JT-Shop> or you can add it yourself
[16:54:07] <elmo40> aggrav8d: touch-screen pendant? interesting. whose screen are you going to use?
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[16:55:28] <aggrav8d> get something from sparkfun and hack it together.
[16:55:48] <aggrav8d> http://www.sparkfun.com/products/9188
[16:55:53] <andypugh> Hack one of these? http://www.fineslate.net/
[16:56:00] <aggrav8d> just the first one i found.
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[16:56:39] <andypugh> The Fineslate is cheaper and complete.
[16:56:52] <aggrav8d> yeah, ok, whatever works.
[16:56:58] <aggrav8d> never heard of them before.
[16:57:01] <andypugh> I wonder if you can replace Android with Linux.
[16:57:12] <aggrav8d> the price is pretty incredible. feels like a scam.
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[16:58:12] <elmo40> once you hack it together i will duplicate your steps :)
[16:58:17] <elmo40> i could use one of them at work
[16:58:17] <andypugh> Pretty sure it isn't a scam, I know one of the guys who started up the company.
[16:58:24] <aggrav8d> ok... I've measured the stock (0.005" thickness, btw). My image is hand drawn, and I need to convert it to vectors. Anyone have a suggestion?
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[16:58:30] <aggrav8d> I'd like this to not take all day.
[16:58:40] <elmo40> now... make it bluetooth so i can walk to the other side of the LARGE machine at work and we will be rocking :)
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[16:58:47] <andypugh> aggrav8d: Famously hard problem.
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[16:59:21] <elmo40> aggrav8d: scanner into bmp then inkscapes bmpßtoßvector _
[16:59:22] <andypugh> You could try Gimp/Inkscape whatever and tracing of a scanned image.
[16:59:40] <aggrav8d> elmo40 - I can live with that. I just assembled http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPcx0bu2RpI and I'm working on the forward kinematics now.
[16:59:53] <andypugh> But the vectorisation algorithms do a poor job in my experience.
[17:00:24] <andypugh> However, my experience was years ago, things might have moved on.
[17:00:25] <elmo40> wow. german kb is coming through... verz odd
[17:00:29] <elmo40> very odd
[17:00:32] <elmo40> brb
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[17:01:27] <andypugh> aggrav8d: Is that a pentapod, or is one acuator hiding?
[17:02:24] <aggrav8d> stewart platform.
[17:03:00] <andypugh> Yes, but how many actuators, I only see 5 in the video.
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[17:09:23] <elmo40> who was looking for a pointillism app for image ?
[17:09:31] <elmo40> it is windows, but I am sure Wine can run it.
[17:09:42] <elmo40> and it makes a dxf
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[17:10:45] <JT-Shop> does it work from vectors or do you need points?
[17:10:53] <elmo40> jpg
[17:11:41] <elmo40> http://www.students.tut.fi/~syvajar3/DXF_Halftone_10.zip
[17:12:56] <aggrav8d> elmo40 - i was looking.
[17:13:24] <elmo40> check out the app. kindof basic but it does a decent job
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[17:21:49] <elmo40> how I would use the dxf is chamfer all the circles (you know, prep for a tap?) set your tool properly and it will make the holes as deep as the tool will make a certain diameter chamfer
[17:24:48] <aggrav8d> ugh, i can't figure out this pointilism program. i'm just tweaking randomly trying to find the right settings.
[17:25:09] <aggrav8d> no idea how circle size relates to depth of cut.
[17:25:09] <elmo40> this is what I made up. http://image.bayimg.com/najbgaadl.jpg my brother is a wedding photographer, he wants to add pointillism items ;)
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[17:26:01] <elmo40> well, depends on how you want it to look. in my case the board is painted and I want to drill out all the circles to the colour of the wood.
[17:26:10] <elmo40> so, dark means smaller circles
[17:27:30] <aggrav8d> i'm working in the top of an altoids tin
[17:27:50] <elmo40> ok, make your spacing tiny
[17:27:51] <andypugh> I am fairly sure that the original technique was simply to run a matrix of points and to drill to a depth governed by the average brightness of the corresponding pixels.
[17:28:01] <elmo40> then make the max.dia tiny :P
[17:28:14] <aggrav8d> i tried that, it didn't look good :(
[17:28:20] <elmo40> andypugh: I didn't know there was already a script for that
[17:29:49] <andypugh> Have I got the wrong end of the stick? I assumed you were discussing a Youtube video that I thought I saw from a link here?
[17:30:34] <elmo40> I guess make the max dia whatever dia your tool is.
[17:30:37] <elmo40> min will be 1
[17:30:48] <elmo40> I believe it is in mm... though not sure :P
[17:33:18] <andypugh> This sort of thing? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njHgg5jnFsU Not sure I understand the hole-sequence algorithm.
[17:33:39] <elmo40> I think that is what he wants :P
[17:34:32] <andypugh> Well... First create a monochrome bitmap with only as many pixels as the image you want.
[17:35:07] <andypugh> Then write a simple script to create G-code of that.
[17:35:19] <andypugh> Perhaps I missed out a step or two...
[17:35:40] <elmo40> simple, eh? LOL
[17:36:33] <andypugh> If I was doing it I would probably use Excel VBA, mainly because I have forgotten how to use Matlab. Matlab/Octave is probably a better bet though.
[17:36:54] <andypugh> And it really is extremely simple.
[17:38:55] <andypugh> (I don't know why the available software starts with a DXF, that's a very odd place to start)
[17:41:13] <andypugh> I would suggest starting with image-to-gcode
[17:41:17] <andypugh> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html/gui_image-to-gcode.html
[17:42:25] <andypugh> With a V-bit smaller than the set parameters you would get a rather interesting alternative to the halftones, something rather like a monochrome TV raster.
[17:43:55] <elmo40> that file I pasted starts with an image. jpg. then you make it a dxf. it makes circles. you 'drill' circles, or chamfer them to a desired depth.
[17:44:50] <andypugh> What might look very interesting would be a Z-map based on a Hilbert curve instead of a Raster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-filling_curve
[17:53:51] <elmo40> appears to me that someone doesn't know about ramping into the part (and I don't see any way it is held down to the table where it is being cut, causing vibrations) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOTbpqX2k38
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[17:58:23] <andypugh> He has blocks on the edges.
[17:58:26] <aggrav8d> i'm trying to convert this image (http://laughingsquid.com/wp-content/uploads/burning_man_1991.jpg) into something I can use.
[17:58:36] <aggrav8d> best i've been able to do is posterize & trace.
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[18:01:39] <archivist> andypugh, similar but different http://education.theage.com.au/cmspage.php?intid=147&intversion=76
[18:02:37] <IG-garage> aggrav8d: http://www.cnc4free.org/ has a nice book on various items of art made with help of CAM software and CNC machines
[18:02:46] <IG-garage> http://www.cnc4free.org/dl01/The_FREE_Creative_CNC_Solution_v6%20_16062010.exe
[18:03:22] <IG-garage> it explains the usage of 2D and 3D modeling programs, vectorization and so forth
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[18:05:28] <elmo40> wooden blocks on the edges. clearly better then nothing... but still he should do more. when it did the large plunge you can hear the whole sheet vibrating. but ya, plunging with a 3-flute is a no-no ;)
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[18:07:05] <JT-Shop> LOL cnc4free after you pay...
[18:08:50] <IG-garage> JT-Shop: what pay, pay nothing
[18:09:16] <JT-Shop> you can't download it says unless you support
[18:10:06] * JT-Shop heads to homo depot for a black iron tee but don't tell elmo40 I'm still using it
[18:10:35] <elmo40> I heard that!
[18:11:22] * elmo40 winces and shakes his head... old methods are not always the best methods
[18:12:49] <IG-garage> no, i have downloaded it
[18:13:30] <IG-garage> JT-Shop: http://www.cnc4free.org/dl01/The_FREE_Creative_CNC_Solution_v6%20_16062010.exe
[18:16:03] <JT-Shop> it's only and old method if you know about a new method... which I do now know about :) and will use in the garage
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[19:25:21] <elmo40> what is that FREE_Creative_CNC_Solutions?
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[19:39:04] <elmo40> why would it be made into an .exe? why not just a .zip?
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[19:42:44] <JT-Shop> that's what kept me from downloading it
[19:43:12] <Tom_L> self extracting exe?
[19:43:39] <JT-Shop> could be but I'm not finding out
[19:44:02] <Tom_L> you're not very trusting
[19:44:21] Tom_L is now known as Tom_itx
[19:45:51] <Jymmm> 141MB
[19:46:42] <elmo40> 567,340,197 once extracted
[19:46:56] <elmo40> pdf and tiff files
[19:47:33] <elmo40> with something called .xcf
[19:48:53] <Jymmm> XCF, short for eXperimental Computing Facility, is the native image format of the GIMP image-editing program
[19:53:37] <JT-Shop> do you think the movie the Sand Pebbles will be banned when the Chinese take over the Earth?
[19:56:13] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: What do you mean "WHEN" they do?
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[19:57:53] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: Turn your kybd/mouse over... what do you see? MADE IN CHINA!
[20:02:59] <JT-Shop> no, when they own the world outright
[20:03:23] <Jymmm> Who says they don't already?
[20:03:53] <JT-Shop> when when the rest of the world is out of money who will they manufacture for or will it matter at that point
[20:05:15] <Jymmm> Their just mocking the "stupid westerners" that buy china stuff in bulk, then send the money back to The Peoples Republic
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[20:11:15] <JT-Shop> hmm new user on the forum "emc_hacker" nice
[20:13:57] -!- adb has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
[20:19:18] <JT-Shop> or we could send California to China and all manufacturing would stop and they would go broke
[20:19:42] <Jymmm> ?
[20:24:24] * Jymmm spikes JT-Shop's beer with vinegar
[20:25:09] -!- adb has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
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[20:36:35] <Jymmm> ...and his dry rub with powdered cheese sauce mix!
[20:40:09] <JT-Shop> mmmm vinegar beer
[20:40:29] <Jymmm> I doubt it
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[20:45:16] <Jymmm> Has anyone seen a smart (auto/marine) battery charger that will maintain a charge, then switch to 10A (or whatever) as needed?
[20:45:24] <Jymmm> automatically
[20:46:01] <Jymmm> I saw one a LONG time ago, but nothing since. It even pulsed the trickle charge.
[20:46:13] <JT-Shop> I had a cheap Chinese one but it did nothing even though the green light was on
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[21:09:57] <Jymmm> heh
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[21:13:41] <archivist> my lorry has an expensive one and boiled the battery dry
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[23:08:55] <gene> gee, I can hear the crickets in here... :
[23:09:14] <JT-Shop> I can't hear anything in here
[23:09:29] <gene> Hi john
[23:09:46] <JT-Shop> Hi Gene
[23:10:11] <gene> Do you kn ow anything about wifi stuff?
[23:10:47] <JT-Shop> not much
[23:10:51] <JT-Shop> what's up
[23:11:14] <JT-Shop> air lines in the shop http://imagebin.org/169020
[23:11:23] <JT-Shop> one more to go
[23:12:12] <gene> Neither do I apparently. I'm used to dealing with 100's of KW in ERP. :) These ameoba powered routers are a puzzle.
[23:14:10] <JT-Shop> usually I just plug them in and they work
[23:14:13] <gene> I assume you will move the fan & ladder before cold weather ;-)
[23:14:22] <JT-Shop> lol yea
[23:14:27] <Tom_itx> ok JT-Shop, where's the water traps?
[23:14:34] <JT-Shop> in the box
[23:14:55] <gene> They don't work there very well...
[23:14:56] <JT-Shop> they go at point of use after the ball valve
[23:15:35] <JT-Shop> 5 micron filter/water separators just to make elmo40 smile
[23:15:48] <Tom_itx> heh
[23:16:11] <JT-Shop> just getting the main trunk line installed atm
[23:16:16] <gene> that is pretty clean :)
[23:16:27] <JT-Shop> thanks
[23:25:00] * JT-Shop listens tor You Better You Bet
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[23:32:08] <JT-Shop> I finally found the micro leak in the last trunk line :)
[23:34:34] <Tom_itx> rust'll seal it
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