#emc | Logs for 2011-07-22

[00:00:04] <Guest90838> yeh - ok imagine, a large object - too heavy to push by hand that is articulated along an 'axis' - a linear bearing and a screw for instance
[00:00:28] <Guest90838> you stick a stick on the side of it - poking out, like a big thing you could push it with
[00:00:49] <Guest90838> then stick a strain gauge on the back end of it
[00:01:18] <Guest90838> push it - it aint going anywhere! cos its too heavy (and connected to a braked motor also)
[00:01:27] <Guest90838> the stick will bend
[00:01:45] <Guest90838> the strain gauge will provide a voltage differential
[00:02:17] <Guest90838> appropriately connect this output into the control of the motor - via, maybe M52 ...
[00:02:21] <Guest90838> object moves
[00:02:27] <Guest90838> strain goes away !
[00:02:32] <Guest90838> object doesn't move
[00:03:31] <Guest90838> and so on - tune it right you pretty much have assisted but (hopefully) *natural* response - you could tune it to be however 'heavy' you wanted
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[00:03:57] <Guest90838> so you could job your X, Y and Z by hand ?
[00:04:07] <Guest90838> oops
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[00:04:16] <Guest90838> 'job' = 'jog'
[00:04:57] <Guest90838> am I boring you lot ?
[00:05:04] <toastydeath> the major reason for tool breakage in manual feeding is feed inconsistency
[00:05:24] <Guest90838> in carbide thats my experience yes
[00:05:30] <toastydeath> you could reduce tool breakage by just flipping a "smooth this input" switch
[00:05:57] <Guest90838> that could be tuned that way yes - a Low pass filter
[00:06:36] <toastydeath> an even better way (and the way most manufacturers deal with it) is to offer up a pair of operation controls rather than just an mpg
[00:06:58] <toastydeath> one jogwheel, and then arrows with a "feed lock" button + feed adjustment knob
[00:07:00] <Guest90838> actually, hmmm - carbide breakign was more a function of chatter - maybe feed inconsistency helped in that case ?
[00:07:19] <Guest90838> operation controls ?
[00:07:34] <toastydeath> operation controls, i.e. how you move the machine by hand
[00:07:38] <toastydeath> rather than under program control
[00:07:50] <Guest90838> like a joystick ?
[00:07:55] <toastydeath> no, a joystick is terrible
[00:07:56] <Guest90838> or what I;m talkign about ?
[00:08:00] <toastydeath> no
[00:08:34] <toastydeath> these are a manual jogwheel with discrete movement increments, and then a set of arrow keys in each direction
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[00:08:50] <Guest90838> I'd liek to google it - but fear, well... the results from googling 'operation controls'
[00:08:58] <toastydeath> when you want to jog to a dimension, you use the mpg, and when you want to feed, you press one of the buttons
[00:09:05] <toastydeath> and the machine operates like a power feed
[00:09:08] <toastydeath> on a manual machine.
[00:09:13] <Guest90838> right
[00:09:31] <toastydeath> there's usually a switch to toggle from power feed to instantaneous feed
[00:09:39] <Guest90838> I used the mill analogy as that is what most people use EMC for
[00:09:42] <toastydeath> some of the better ones also have a "move by this specified amount per push"
[00:09:48] <Guest90838> but I'm actually talking about other machines
[00:10:02] <Guest90838> like the axis interface ...
[00:10:17] <toastydeath> relying on the feed pressure is not a reliable way to control the radial forces that break cutters, unfortunately
[00:10:36] <toastydeath> IIRC a few manufacturers experimented with it but nobody wound up using it because it broke cutters in other circumstances
[00:11:02] <Guest90838> yeh>?
[00:11:22] <Guest90838> so its not even better than *not* using it ? its worse ?
[00:11:30] <Guest90838> other machines = http://www.alphagrip.co.uk/communities/3/004/006/692/773/images/4523305833.jpg
[00:11:47] <toastydeath> it's not worse, i just read that it fails in certain cutting conditions
[00:11:47] <Guest90838> http://www.technocranecanada.com/800%20x%20600/equipment/equipmentimg.jpg
[00:11:49] <toastydeath> what those are i am not sure
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[00:12:08] <toastydeath> they already have that kind of interface on those robots
[00:12:17] <toastydeath> it's fairly new
[00:12:24] <Guest90838> I use those very robots
[00:12:31] <Guest90838> I know them ;)
[00:12:58] <Guest90838> they use buttons and analog joysticks
[00:13:12] <toastydeath> no, i am not talking about buttons and joysticks
[00:13:19] <toastydeath> i am talking about the industrial robots where you push them
[00:13:25] <toastydeath> to get to them to move
[00:13:30] <Guest90838> I am ;) Just sayign what those cranes use
[00:14:04] <Guest90838> this stuff can be implemented in EMC2 ?
[00:14:34] <toastydeath> i have no idea, you'll have to ask one of the devs
[00:14:57] <Guest90838> the feed pressure thing I guess it has a bit of thinking to be done around the difference between slotting and plunging (and all the angles in between)
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[00:18:06] <Guest90838> like if your 'feed' was more in Z as opposed to horizontal the rate change might be more or less than if it were more horizontal
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[00:19:50] <toastydeath> i am not sure under what circumstance you'd be doing a manually controlled combined move
[00:19:55] <toastydeath> other than perhaps a rapid feed
[00:20:20] <toastydeath> but even in that circumstance it is usually only done in the situation where the cutter is free of obstruction in the movement plane
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[00:21:34] <toastydeath> unless, as you mentioned, you were doing a general, non-cutting machine control
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[00:25:20] <Guest90838> yes... moving a heavy object places ...
[00:25:32] <Guest90838> and recordign its movement for playback later
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[00:30:09] <Valen> we always just wind up using MDI
[00:36:26] <Valen> Guest90838: if you type /nick icanhaznick it'll give you a nick name
[00:36:34] <Valen> replace icanhasnick with an actual nick
[00:36:50] Guest90838 is now known as nick
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[00:43:03] <Tom_itx> Valen, that is a nick?
[00:43:26] <Valen> i'm not sure
[00:43:31] <Valen> oh mine
[00:43:33] <Valen> yeah
[00:43:36] <Tom_itx> no his
[00:43:44] <Valen> his i'm not so sure
[00:43:48] <Valen> its something thats for sure
[00:43:49] <Jymmm> hers
[00:44:07] <Tom_itx> tell me about this ssd setting in ubuntu
[00:44:25] <Tom_itx> i don't have mine installed right now but can i see where to do it?
[00:44:26] <Valen> if your using ext4 you need to add discard to the options in mount
[00:44:38] <Tom_itx> where?
[00:44:40] <Jymmm> ewwwwww ext4, yuck
[00:44:44] <Tom_itx> see, i'm no linux guru
[00:44:48] <Valen> https://sites.google.com/site/lightrush/random-1/howtoconfigureext4toenabletrimforssdsonubuntu
[00:44:56] <Tom_itx> just an innocent bystander
[00:45:03] <Valen> whats so bad about ext4?
[00:45:07] <Jymmm> innocent my ass
[00:45:17] <Tom_itx> uh huh
[00:45:21] * Valen doubts Jymmms ass is innocent
[00:45:30] * Tom_itx doesn't care about it
[00:45:39] * Jymmm doubts Tom_itx is innocent too
[00:45:40] -!- adb has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
[00:45:51] * Valen is a dirty perve and proud of it
[00:45:51] <Jymmm> Tom_itx is as guilty as sin
[00:46:29] <Jymmm> Valen: have you ever tried doing data recovery on an ext4 drive?
[00:46:48] <Tom_itx> it's called.. back it up before you need to
[00:47:07] <Valen> data recovery means you have already failed
[00:47:19] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: Yeah, say that in an electrical storm
[00:47:34] <Tom_itx> i keep drives on the shelf
[00:47:36] <Tom_itx> backed up
[00:48:00] <Jymmm> ok, whatever you say
[00:48:17] <Tom_itx> some of the stuff i have i could not ever get back if i had to
[00:48:29] <Tom_itx> so it's well backed
[00:48:45] <Tom_itx> i may loose some data but nothing too terribly critical
[00:49:50] <Jymmm> When you get to 4.2TB worth, let me know.
[00:50:10] <Tom_itx> yeah that's alot to manage
[00:50:12] <Valen> thats only 2 drives
[00:50:31] <Jymmm> Valen: (and climbing)
[00:50:38] <Tom_itx> big drives just die harder
[00:50:44] <Valen> and when one of the drives explodes anyway?
[00:51:18] * Tom_itx gives Jymmm a truckload of floppies
[00:51:24] <Jymmm> I'm working on building another NAS
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[00:51:28] <Valen> if its important you need to back it up
[00:51:36] <Tom_itx> i live by that
[00:51:43] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: 720KB ?
[00:51:48] * Valen hopes Jymmm has raid at least ;-P
[00:51:56] <Jymmm> Valen: ZFS
[00:51:57] <Tom_itx> no, you can drill a hole in em and reformat em
[00:52:08] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: xacto!!!
[00:52:16] <Tom_itx> soldering iron tip
[00:52:22] <Jymmm> that works =)
[00:52:38] * Tom_itx goes back to his innocence
[00:52:39] <Valen> 8 inch ibm disks 237kb ftw
[00:52:40] <Jymmm> all my floppies are backed up to image files now
[00:53:40] <Jymmm> Total: 7.25TB | Free: 3.22TB
[00:53:45] <Tom_itx> i finally ditched all (most) of my floppy installs of novell
[00:54:04] <Jymmm> Huh, you STILL using novell?
[00:54:04] <Tom_itx> funny you never even hear that word anymore
[00:54:09] <Tom_itx> :)
[00:54:10] <Valen> how much of that is movies though?
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[00:54:48] <Jymmm> Valen: 1.83TB
[00:54:59] <Valen> wth is the rest of it?
[00:55:11] <Jymmm> stuff =)
[00:55:20] <Valen> pr0n of course ;-P
[00:55:33] <Jymmm> Nah, the pr0n is only 430MB
[00:55:38] <Tom_itx> torrent stuff?
[00:55:41] <Valen> amature ;-P
[00:55:43] <Jymmm> oh hell no
[00:55:51] * Jymmm dont do torrent
[00:55:56] <Tom_itx> heh
[00:56:15] <Jymmm> $10K USD for 10x $0.99 songs, I dont think so
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[00:57:07] <Jymmm> and yes,I know ppl that have gotten letters too
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[00:58:46] <tom3p> clear
[00:58:48] <Jymmm> The next NAS I'll be working on is 8x 3TB HDD's =)
[00:59:00] <Jymmm> how the hell I'll back that up I have NFC
[00:59:56] <Valen> are hdds still cheaper than tape?
[01:00:09] <Jymmm> 2TB $69 USD
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[01:00:27] <Jymmm> 3TB $99
[01:00:28] <Valen> you may be able to get used tapes cheaply
[01:01:16] <Jymmm> Valen: cradek loves tape, I hate it
[01:01:37] <Valen> I only have a little bit of data i actually care about
[01:01:46] <Valen> and thats backed up onto my web server
[01:01:56] <Jymmm> Oh, I have a data rated fire safe
[01:02:51] <Jymmm> Valen: Have you seen the google servers?
[01:03:08] <Valen> in what sense?
[01:03:24] <Jymmm> Valen: Battery backup built in... http://news.cnet.com/i/bto/20090401/Google_data_centers-1.jpg
[01:03:31] <Valen> yeah saw that
[01:03:43] <Valen> i'm not entirley sure it'd be worth it really
[01:03:57] <Valen> it'd be cheaper to just provide high voltage DC
[01:04:13] <Jymmm> not on a per-server basis
[01:04:14] <Valen> UPS it at the rack/datacenter/whatever level
[01:04:24] <Jymmm> And VERY expensive too
[01:04:36] <Valen> it'd be cheaper than an assload of batteries
[01:04:56] <Jymmm> No, becasue you STILL need an ass load of batteries for the ups
[01:05:01] <Valen> basically all datacenters have battery backups anyway, they just run through giant UPSes
[01:05:07] <toastydeath> flywheels!
[01:05:08] <Valen> yes but you can get very large batteries
[01:05:14] <Valen> toastydeath: they use those too
[01:05:30] <Valen> a few large batteries is going to be cheaper than lots and lots of smaller ones
[01:05:40] <Valen> especially when you need to replace them every 18 months
[01:05:42] <Jymmm> Valen: And I've seen whole sections of DC's go down for hours because of that.
[01:05:56] <Valen> yes, inverters are bad
[01:06:13] <Valen> feeding straight off the battery wires around the place would be lots cheaper
[01:06:23] <Valen> also you don't need a battery charger everywhere
[01:06:35] <Valen> lots of battery chargers rather
[01:07:19] <Valen> also by providing DC to the power supply you need only a simple step down supply, it'd boost the efficiency of the PC by a good % and drop the cost of the supply
[01:08:07] <Valen> given that power is one of googles largest costs it seems prudent
[01:08:22] <Jymmm> I think you might want to read about google's power effeciancy ratings
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[01:09:11] <Valen> i have
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[01:09:57] <Valen> they have even released papers saying they would like it if all the components in the PC ran off 12V without wasting power on not much used 5v/3.3v rails these days
[01:10:44] <Jymmm> I was JSUt lookign for the 5v rails here, I dont' see any... http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/bto/20090401/GoogleServerLarge.jpg
[01:11:23] <Valen> red wire going into the hdds
[01:14:14] <Jymmm> Yes, I know. But I don't see a SOURCE for it
[01:15:02] <Valen> I guess the pcb under the drives
[01:15:27] <Jymmm> http://www.pricedbelowmarket.com/assets/img/293866_1_600w.jpg
[01:15:28] <Valen> photos of the mbo seem to indicate only pata ports
[01:15:38] <Valen> ahh theres the sata
[01:15:39] <Jymmm> 6x SATA
[01:15:52] <Valen> photo i saw was from the other side
[01:15:57] <Jymmm> =)
[01:18:30] <Jymmm> Valen: I dont even see any 12V lines going to under the drives to even convert to 5V
[01:20:51] <Valen> i think the google one must do it on the motherboard
[01:22:11] <Valen> unless its just cheaper for them to get the sata plugs with all the wires in them
[01:22:45] <Jymmm> I can't see the striped wires coming our of the PS
[01:22:59] <Jymmm> hdd dont need that much amperage
[01:23:02] <Valen> no the cnet article says the psu only makes 12v
[01:23:22] <Jymmm> no idea
[01:23:25] <Valen> personally i like high voltage DC for distribution
[01:23:51] <Valen> everything is DC these days and the amount of work involved in AC > DC efficently is painfull
[01:24:25] <Jymmm> I want DC run thru the house, just like AC. I still ahven't figured out how to get different voltages
[01:24:36] <Jymmm> efficianly
[01:24:49] <Valen> run high(ish) voltage DC then make stepdowns
[01:24:59] <Valen> one fet + inductor and a cap if your feeling fancy
[01:25:10] <Jymmm> +48VDC
[01:25:23] <Valen> something like that
[01:25:31] <Jymmm> and how effeciant is your fet+cap?
[01:25:39] <Jymmm> think solar
[01:25:51] <Valen> 90+ should be easy
[01:26:41] <Jymmm> 10% is HUGE in solar terms
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[01:26:58] <Valen> i said 90% is easy
[01:27:19] <Jymmm> not high enough damnit!
[01:27:22] <Jymmm> ;)
[01:27:33] <Valen> with some clever design and a few more components you should be able to hit 98% without going too nuts
[01:28:11] <Jymmm> I wonder what the loss is for most walworts?
[01:28:18] <Valen> pretty high
[01:28:31] <Valen> personally I wanted to run ~350Vdc
[01:28:43] <Jymmm> generatd how?
[01:28:48] <Valen> that way you can make AC with a simple h bridge
[01:29:19] <Valen> I figured you convert the entire electricity grid over to DC and save ~20% of the energy generated ;->
[01:30:06] <Jymmm> See, I have an alarm panel PS/Charger. I am thinking with of those Pico ATX PS
[01:30:48] <Jymmm> My NAS now is only drawing between 68-84 Watts with 4x 2TB hdd
[01:32:04] <Valen> thats quite a lot of power really
[01:32:19] <Valen> each drive should be what 6-8W?
[01:32:26] <Jymmm> BIG ASS FANs in it
[01:32:41] <Jymmm> nothing kills hdd's faster than heat
[01:32:46] <Valen> google says that hdd temp has little bearing on life
[01:32:53] <Jymmm> they lie
[01:33:11] <Valen> http://labs.google.com/papers/disk_failures.pdf
[01:33:18] <Jymmm> when you can't touch the hdd becasue it's too hot, will degrade the hdd
[01:33:27] <Valen> you shouldn't need that much air
[01:33:40] <Valen> a single 120mm fan at 5v should be enough
[01:33:49] <Jymmm> ralize they are in a cliamte controlled environment, I'm not.
[01:34:12] <Valen> http://www.vapourforge.com/jake/temp/fan/index.html
[01:34:43] <Valen> from like 1996 lol
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[01:36:36] <Jymmm> See, googles PEAK hdd temp was 20c, mine is 43c currently
[01:37:24] <Valen> actually their peak is 50
[01:37:31] <Valen> thats peak average temp
[01:37:51] <Valen> fig 4
[01:38:20] <Valen> seems to indicate that up to around 45c is fine
[01:38:39] <Valen> with a sweet spot around36c
[01:39:00] <Jymmm> Mine AVG at 42c
[01:39:13] <Jymmm> Google AVG at 20c
[01:41:30] <Valen> your mis reading the graph
[01:42:00] <Valen> the bars show the number of drives that have that average that temperature
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[01:42:27] <Valen> the dots show the failure rate of drives that average that temperature
[01:42:56] <Valen> so the afr (average failure rate) of a drive that averages 40C is ~1.8%
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[02:22:26] <Valen> take that pesky ghost
[02:22:32] <Valen> did i miss anything?
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[03:58:32] <IG-garage> Have just bought a 'conical wire brush.' 'The brush is made of crimped steel wire with brass coating, diameter is 0.3 mm.' Cost about USD 7. I'll go and check if it's what I was needed. I could eat three days for this money...
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[04:31:01] <IG-garage> psha: good morning :)
[04:33:09] <psha> good morning
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[08:37:11] <Loetmichel> mornin'
[08:41:31] <GuestIsgoodWithm> evening
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[10:57:23] <IG-garage> evening
[10:57:55] <jthornton> morning
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[11:41:15] <IG-garage> Can I write 'M30 M05 M09' on the same line?
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[11:43:29] <jthornton> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html/gcode_overview.html#r1_11
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[11:50:57] <IG-garage> It would be less doubtful to keep commands at separate lines.
[11:51:11] <Tom_itx> i doubt it, M30 is end of program isn't it?
[11:53:39] <IG-garage> To end a program, program M2. To exchange pallet shuttles and then end a program, program M30. Both of these commands have the following effects. (http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html/gcode_main.html#sub:M0,-M1,-M2,)
[11:54:05] <Tom_itx> so you wouldn't end a program and put more code after it
[11:54:27] <Tom_itx> M30 program end, pallet shuttle, and reset
[11:54:39] <Tom_itx> M2 program end
[11:56:00] <Tom_itx> http://www.linuxcnc.org/handbook/RS274NGC_3/RS274NGC_33a.html#1002379
[11:58:16] <IG-garage> why m05 after m30 then?
[11:58:30] <Tom_itx> i didn't write it
[11:58:37] <Tom_itx> and wouldn't do that
[11:59:00] <Tom_itx> it may work (i'm not saying it will) but it's poor practice to end a program and add code after it
[11:59:59] <Tom_itx> N144 M05
[12:00:00] <Tom_itx> N145 G49 G28 Z0 Y0
[12:00:00] <Tom_itx> N146 M30
[12:00:00] <Tom_itx> %
[12:00:01] <the_wench> http://www.wench.archivist.info/index.php?chan=%23emc to see any factoids
[12:00:08] <Tom_itx> that's typically how i end one
[12:01:04] <psha[work]> hm
[12:01:05] <psha[work]> %
[12:01:06] <the_wench> http://www.cnc-toolkit.com/support.html
[12:01:09] <psha[work]> %
[12:01:09] <the_wench> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2#Preparing_Ubuntu_to_compile_emc2
[12:01:13] <psha[work]> :D
[12:01:15] <psha[work]> %%
[12:01:15] <the_wench> fail psha[work]
[12:01:18] <psha[work]> :(
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[12:12:06] <IG-garage> thanks for http://www.cnc-toolkit.com/support.html , the_wench
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[12:12:51] <archivist_emc> %
[12:13:10] <archivist_emc> fixed that little problem
[12:13:29] <archivist_emc> db
[12:13:29] <the_wench> http://www.wench.archivist.info/index.php?chan=%23emc to see any factoids
[12:14:01] <IG-garage> Can you give me any good links - e.g. to Youtube videos - to see how many types of machine are being used by people around the world, for what 5-axes mills are used (and I only can imagine 2.5D milling, I'm from a tiny town, not even from the provincial capital :)
[12:14:38] <archivist_emc> IG-garage, I have emc on a 5 axis
[12:15:16] <IG-garage> archivist_emc: and what other 2 axes are for?
[12:15:17] <psha[work]> IG-garage: theoreticaly you need only 4 axis (SO_3 group has 4 dimensions) but practicaly you need fifth one
[12:15:47] <archivist_emc> ig rotation
[12:16:16] <archivist_emc> I rotate the blank for gears/worms etc
[12:17:35] <archivist_emc> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EYaM4FkASA&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
[12:18:00] <archivist_emc> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAtziCsUj5Q&feature=related
[12:18:36] <IG-garage> aha, it's lathe-alike!
[12:20:34] <archivist_emc> well the headstock is off a lathe
[12:20:58] <archivist_emc> here is chris's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WCrqqoZkPg
[12:21:55] <IG-garage> i have bookmarked them, will see these videos soon.
[12:22:03] <IG-garage> now need to go to the garage
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[13:34:57] <JT-Shop> YEA! 5 days off after I finish this part
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[14:03:33] <IG-garage> tried this brush, 0.3 mm at an angle, 10k rpms angle grinder. everything depends on an angle at which you remove the paint from the surface. 90 degree or so - steel isn't really fine but it cleans quickly, almost parallel to the surface of steel, and it is almost as fine as needed, but it takes some time to remove the paint.
[14:05:38] <IG-garage> I have finally decided to put a piece of thick rubber (former conveyor belt) onto the concrete floor of the garage and clean them with angle grinder this way, not on the table.
[14:12:34] <JT-Shop> what are you cleaning?
[14:12:48] <IG-garage> paint from motorcycle gas tank
[14:14:40] <IG-garage> JT-Shop: used mini drill (with a pin with longitudinal cut in which 2 cm x 9cm stripe of sandpaper had been clamped) before, now i'm about to use angle grinder (Makita) for large flat surfaces
[14:15:03] <JT-Shop> have fun
[14:16:32] <IG-garage> heh, i had fun... At work, I polished steam pipes (400mm up to 900 mm in diameter) with usual grinding wheel and pneumatic grinder
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[14:17:19] <IG-garage> only sparkles lit up the areas made fine
[14:18:51] <IG-garage> i'll go clean the floor and arrange everything for the job to be done safely and easily at any time. I will leave the dog at home.
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[14:45:13] <rooks> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSSwYl23ANI <3 his comments
[14:46:25] <IG-garage> thought it's some ofe 'Jeremy Clarckson spuff' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhICrb0Tbn4&feature=related
[14:47:05] <IG-garage> rooks: what, like sailing?
[14:47:22] <IG-garage> rooks: what time is there where you are?
[14:47:29] <rooks> nah, like building with no skills :P
[14:47:38] <rooks> 16:47
[14:47:50] <IG-garage> 21:47
[14:48:32] <IG-garage> i'll go visit my garage
[14:48:36] <IG-garage> brb
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[15:04:57] <IG-garage> rooks: i've decided to start to rebuild some stuff for free, doing a motorcycle these days. about 12 hours of work or so are spent, and 15 hours of work or so after it will be ready. Then plan to help repaint some stuff (make it look better, like maybe a 'snakecharmer' at ICON motorcycles)
[15:05:01] <IG-garage> rooks: and start to take orders and do some stuff for free. Most of the youth around is drinking beer, looking on the shiny stuff at TV, playing games and so forth
[15:05:54] <rooks> IG-garage, awesome! have you thought about making tumbleweed houses?
[15:06:40] <IG-garage> i just put the lacquer onto metal, don't deal with primer and colour, it's because of my general maximalism in ecological thingies
[15:07:02] <rooks> IG-garage, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y15dxUZN3s
[15:07:31] <rooks> cool approach :)
[15:07:38] <IG-garage> rooks: I have two at two our gardens. Wood of one hous needs to be repainted to protect it, roof of another claims for some work
[15:07:49] <rooks> i never worked much with metal so i dont have opinion
[15:08:50] <rooks> IG-garage, check out that link about small homes, you might get interested in making them for living if you wanna put your creative energies somewhere :)
[15:10:19] <IG-garage> i also hadn't worked with it. Just have bought my first motorcycle with license for USD 150, and put about USD 70 to it. it's ready. Have put about USD 100 to self-made air compressor, small air brush, and mini drill and started to work in the garage
[15:12:12] <IG-garage> rooks: I live in apartment, we don't spend much of electricity, i also have a couple of gardens (20 x 30 meters with small houses at each one), garage (industrial district of the town) and ambar (in front yard of my block of flats - same garage but with narrow doors.)
[15:13:42] <rooks> doing stuff on your own is nice, however there is something called as effect of scale, meaning that cost of making stuff is smaller when you make many things than if you would make one, plus its not always feasible time-wise to "build a brewery to just have a drink of beer"
[15:15:06] <rooks> (im alcohol free vegan btw, that saying is a figure of speech, by no means i approve drinking beer :P )
[15:15:19] <IG-garage> rooks: yeah, i only do small hobby projects
[15:18:07] <IG-garage> There's a recession in what people do nowadays. There are not many skateboarders at the street, people think of what i do in the garage as of a waste of money - they don't know I haven't spent a ruble on it, only physical efforts
[15:19:49] <IG-garage> When I have told of the motorcycle I do to coworkers, they thought I buy shiny jewelries to it, and wanted to explain that life is somewhat complex, that I need to love TV programs and all this freaking around me.
[15:19:54] * anonimasu yawns
[15:20:27] <rooks> IG-garage, you might like this then http://pleasanthacking.com/2011/07/03/unsandboxing-yourself/ ...
[15:20:32] <IG-garage> anonimasu: HeeksCNC outputs for Haineken or Hineridnger or how is it called...
[15:21:11] <IG-garage> rooks: no, i don't have any powerful air compressor for it, which price is about USD 250
[15:21:58] <IG-garage> oh, thought 'sanding' aka 'sanboxing' or so. :)
[15:22:15] <rooks> IG-garage, that link is not about sanding :P its about life, you might find it useful, since its against tv and figuring out whats needed in life... :)
[15:23:49] <IG-garage> well, i for example didn't spend money into fence around my garden. Instead, at one garden the neighbours have built the fence themselves :), at another one, there's grass, nettle and the stuff. Nettle is a good nutrition supplement if you didn't know.
[15:26:38] <rooks> i know this and that about nutrition, im vegan and i follow lots of advice from i.e. brendan brazier (he won 2 thriatlons while been vegan since 15yo) :)
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[15:29:10] <IG-garage> i also want a simpler life because i like to do something, but i don;t want to do just whatever. In fact, working in the gardens, doing some stuff on my own in the garage. Trying to not spend money at all. Some kind of a philosophy.
[15:29:54] * JT-Shop pokes anonimasu to wake him up
[15:30:08] <anonimasu> hello?
[15:30:14] <anonimasu> :)
[15:30:35] <anonimasu> yeah but it dosent output circles or anything since the tnc151 is a straight line control
[15:30:45] <IG-garage> rooks: which modern vegan author have said this "Good philosophy must be simpler enough - to seize it and start to use right now." ?
[15:31:23] <rooks> IG-garage, at that link http://pleasanthacking.com/2011/07/03/unsandboxing-yourself/ there are lots of info on how to grow your own food in the backyard
[15:31:43] <rooks> IG-garage, no idea.. i dont amass quotes, i'd rather do stuff
[15:32:57] <IG-garage> rooks: we grow up potato and carrot, apples and some berries. do not using any fertilizers. the grass is the fertilizer by itself, even if it grows under the bush of berries
[15:33:29] <IG-garage> rooks: that's me who have said this: http://ilya-e-g.ya.ru/posts.xml?tag=69107312
[15:34:26] <Loetmichel> re @ home
[15:35:30] <IG-garage> Cob houses are somewhat really attractive, rooks . I was so exited when I first time have fond they exist. At soviet union, there were a lot of cob houses at e.g. Ukraine
[15:36:30] <rooks> oh.. nice, i wasnt aware of that :) i thought it was mostly african thingy
[15:37:33] <IG-garage> no, not at all. There's some mountain town in Arizona, where it's snow. So, it almost totally consists of cob houses with thick walls
[15:37:56] <IG-garage> *where snows
[15:38:57] <IG-garage> cob houses - the ones made of grass and clay
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[15:45:30] <IG-garage> rooks: that motorcycle i like: http://www.pipeburn.com/home/2010/8/7/icon-snakecharmer.html but i don't disassemble the negine if it isn't needed and therefore do not repaint it and by result create a perfect style for selected design
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[15:56:25] <JT-Shop> well crap I have to make another part to get finished for the week :/
[15:56:36] <anonimasu> JT-Shop: I put mine on hold for tomorrow :D
[15:56:46] <anonimasu> some 200mm big bearing mounts
[15:57:21] <anonimasu> turned the through shaft hole, and the faces, then dropped onto the milling machine for roughing the id of the bearings
[15:57:30] <anonimasu> then thrown on the lathe for finish machining
[15:58:05] <anonimasu> I could turn them on the lathe all the way, but since the mill is idle and I'd rather work on the second one meanwhile it's cutting :)
[15:58:43] <IG-garage> anonimasu: it's some serious work what you do
[15:58:59] <IG-garage> i would be excited
[15:59:20] <anonimasu> I'll be excited when a big cnc lathe lands :D
[15:59:52] <IG-garage> although it's a friday movie today and i am rather wating the movie than excited :) ;) ha-ha
[15:59:53] <anonimasu> so I can leave the machines to their fate and leave to have kafe
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[16:00:04] <anonimasu> (I do that with the mill)
[16:00:25] <anonimasu> the bearing that goes in is 140mm od
[16:00:29] <anonimasu> err 150
[16:01:03] <IG-garage> what, big cnc lathe is even levitating ?? How much you should think of it / love it for it to do so...
[16:01:09] <IG-garage> heh
[16:01:16] <anonimasu> I designed the part that it goes into :)
[16:01:19] <JT-Shop> anonimasu: this is a simple stepped plug to keep a key from falling out
[16:01:41] <anonimasu> JT-Shop: I want that kind of projects I have about 1 hr of roughing theese things on the lathe
[16:01:50] <anonimasu> cant take more then 0.5mm per cut since they might take off otherwise :)
[16:02:17] <anonimasu> JT-Shop: cnc lathe?
[16:02:27] <JT-Shop> ouch, I know what you mean... I hate that kind of part
[16:02:34] <JT-Shop> yes Hardinge CHNC 1
[16:02:41] <anonimasu> nice!
[16:02:41] <JT-Shop> running EMC2 :0
[16:02:45] <JT-Shop> :)
[16:03:06] <JT-Shop> yes, with ngcgui it is so simple to make parts on it
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[16:03:23] <JT-Shop> I can cut them out faster than I can draw them up for the 3-D model
[16:04:09] <anonimasu> brb, gonna try to get my emc machine running in the garage so I can try a motor tomorrow :)
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[16:14:07] <IG-garage> relatively tough labour: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unr_cbe335c&feature=feedrec_grec_index
[16:14:58] <IG-garage> what do you mean by 'take off'?
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[16:26:07] <anonimasu> I mean getting loose from the chuck and thrown 3 meters away
[16:31:19] <IG-garage> oh, depends on how do you clamp it into the chuck
[16:32:09] <IG-garage> Hey, how fast will usual small stepper motor spin if I simply use it to revolve the spindle?
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[16:35:44] <anonimasu> not fast
[16:39:00] <IG-garage> what RPM?
[16:39:57] <anonimasu> check the datasheet
[16:40:10] <anonimasu> where the torque peak is is the limit
[16:40:12] <anonimasu> pretty much
[16:41:45] <IG-garage> ok
[16:47:18] * anonimasu ponders about insert life in steel
[16:47:20] <anonimasu> what's the usual?
[16:47:47] <anonimasu> in normal carbon steel
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[16:50:47] <ewanas> Hi all
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[17:11:12] <anonimasu> emc segfaults :S
[17:11:30] <anonimasu> [ 1191.387167] axis[2415]: segfault at 0 ip (null) sp bfcbaf1c error 4 in libssl.so.0.9.8[110000+42000]
[17:12:08] <psha> anonimasu: what video card?
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[17:13:34] <anonimasu> no clue
[17:13:45] <anonimasu> a integrated one
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[17:15:29] <anonimasu> glxgears works with artefacts..
[17:16:09] <IG-garage> anonimasu: HeeksCNC outputs g-code for Hardgringer, have you tried it already?
[17:16:13] <anonimasu> yes
[17:16:18] <IG-garage> and?
[17:16:26] <anonimasu> it's a 82815 chipset
[17:16:38] <anonimasu> it cant oput arc's
[17:17:44] * anonimasu hides in a corner to wait for andypugh so he can steal sseri drivers
[17:17:52] <IG-garage> what if ther are no arcs in the dxf drawing, and no tool compensation used?
[17:17:57] <Tom_itx> that's kinda bad if you're trying to use it for cad
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[17:18:35] <anonimasu> indeed
[17:18:40] <anonimasu> so i might fix it someday
[17:18:47] <anonimasu> but not right now :)
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[17:18:56] <IchGuckLive> Hi all in the Hot USA
[17:19:06] <IG-garage> well, can make use of G41 and g42 in the tweaked G-code program, and split arcs to lines in QCad
[17:19:08] <L84Supper> help me I'm melting
[17:19:25] <Tom_itx> they are talking about rolling blackouts here it has been so hot for a sustained period
[17:19:44] <anonimasu> biggest issue is to get emc running remotely ok so I can test my drivers
[17:19:50] <IG-garage> anonimasu: fix what? the CAM software? :) Add turning into it then :)
[17:20:00] <IchGuckLive> IG-garage: there is a post processor integreadet to Heekscad to do this automaticly
[17:20:05] <anonimasu> pff.. fix the post processor
[17:20:22] <IG-garage> IchGuckLive: oh, need to check out
[17:21:21] <IchGuckLive> IG-garage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAVkVawm6pM tutorial
[17:21:33] <IG-garage> thanks, IchGuckLive
[17:21:41] <IchGuckLive> NP
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[17:22:36] <L84Supper> who makes a ~12" x 12" 2 axis gantry with 10 micron repeatability for a few kilo load?
[17:23:04] <anonimasu> skf
[17:23:12] <anonimasu> ^_^
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[17:23:51] <L84Supper> http://www.techno-isel.com/ something like these guys
[17:24:37] <IchGuckLive> L84Supper: why not selfmade with bearings from china and constraction aluminium
[17:24:45] <anonimasu> skf does
[17:24:49] <L84Supper> trying to save time
[17:24:58] <anonimasu> they are not cheap.
[17:24:58] <archivist_emc> and the 10 micron bit
[17:25:13] <anonimasu> but that 10 micron throws you into their stuff
[17:25:22] <L84Supper> http://www.techno-isel.com/Education1/Patriot.htm not cheap $11K
[17:25:35] <L84Supper> Repeatability: .0004"
[17:25:45] <IchGuckLive> ball bearig is the best way
[17:26:12] <IchGuckLive> ball tread at
[17:26:26] <L84Supper> my loads are a kilo or so, accel is slow 0.1 G max
[17:26:47] <anonimasu> L84Supper: cheapest if to buy slidse thk/skf/isel
[17:26:56] <anonimasu> and good ballscrews
[17:27:12] <anonimasu> or screw that and go for linear scales
[17:27:29] <anonimasu> and you can repeat as much as you like
[17:27:45] <L84Supper> linear mag scales
[17:27:54] <archivist_emc> their accuracy is wildly different to repeatability
[17:28:00] <L84Supper> I guess optical strips are cheap for 300mm
[17:28:11] <IchGuckLive> self made -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1IDHIcyHLY&feature=related
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[17:30:00] <IchGuckLive> there is a 1unch tread ball
[17:30:35] <L84Supper> looks nice for homebrew
[17:30:36] <IchGuckLive> 5:1 Time belt at 400 Steps 16Micro step
[17:32:41] <IG-garage> AC servo are generally more fast, what is their advantage over steppers?
[17:33:27] <Tom_itx> accuracy
[17:33:37] <Tom_itx> steppers generally don't have feedback
[17:34:49] <IG-garage> so, encoders are possible with AC servo motors, steppers do not understand if they have lost one step?
[17:34:58] <anonimasu> yes
[17:35:14] <anonimasu> but you can use steppers with encoders also.
[17:35:27] <IG-garage> and steppers if they run fast can start loosing steps and finally just stop?
[17:35:34] <anonimasu> but it only gives you more accurate positioning
[17:35:36] <IchGuckLive> or simply run a good driver
[17:35:45] <IG-garage> ok...
[17:36:06] <IchGuckLive> if you calculate the load no step will be lost
[17:36:45] <IG-garage> oh, I would be careful with load
[17:37:06] <IchGuckLive> Nema 34 are capable to 3kG/s²
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[17:37:36] <IchGuckLive> this is realy high and for normel work well enoph
[17:37:58] <IG-garage> So was on a robust turret mill, which started to vibrate with a slightly larger level of noise when feed rate was a bit too much.
[17:38:02] <andypugh> PCW: One of your old products, or something else entirely? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mesa-Electronics-6C22-CPU-Circuit-Board-USED-/330539560832
[17:38:41] <IG-garage> IchGuckLive: i will not calculate anything, o would just use small depths of material to be cut off
[17:39:12] <anonimasu> andypugh: is the sserial stuff that will work with the 7i43 included in the latest git?
[17:39:30] <IG-garage> accuracy 0.01 mm and repeatability of 0.05 mm for small mill router for about USD 2000 is OK?
[17:39:42] <IG-garage> ball screws
[17:39:54] <pcw_home> andypugh: yep, Thanks for making me feel old...
[17:40:47] <IchGuckLive> ig mutch cheeper
[17:41:06] <IG-garage> for how much i can buy one at ebay, for example?
[17:41:33] <IchGuckLive> IG-garage: http://shop.ebay.de/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=tb6560&_sacat=See-All-Categories
[17:41:41] <IchGuckLive> the Driver
[17:42:02] <IG-garage> thanks, I'm not so familiar with all these ebays and stuff yet
[17:42:10] <IchGuckLive> there are Epson Steppers with 48V max at 4,2A with 2,4KGload
[17:42:19] <IchGuckLive> under 20Euros
[17:43:15] <IG-garage> table, metal frame and rails are the problem
[17:43:37] <IG-garage> no one really will create it for me
[17:44:40] <IG-garage> I for a while will order details at friends (who make them out at a plant they work at).
[17:45:14] <IchGuckLive> IG-garage: where are you from
[17:45:19] <IG-garage> Russia
[17:45:19] <IchGuckLive> Country
[17:45:36] <IchGuckLive> there is anyone around with a mill im Shure
[17:45:40] <IG-garage> from earth ;)
[17:45:55] <IchGuckLive> in the 20km range
[17:46:12] <IG-garage> off course, i just thought of some small lathe and cnc mill in the garage
[17:46:15] <IchGuckLive> or got it from the ARMY
[17:46:35] <IchGuckLive> manuell for 500 USD
[17:46:39] <IG-garage> got what?
[17:46:49] <IG-garage> manual mill or lathe
[17:46:54] <IchGuckLive> the Drifer a timebelt and a stepper and it will work
[17:47:07] <IchGuckLive> IG-garage: yes
[17:47:18] <IG-garage> we wanted to buy small *manual* lathe for USD 250, without the motor
[17:48:21] <IG-garage> lathe is needed rather manual, but mill might have a cnc
[17:48:51] <IG-garage> lathe is for various tightly-fit parts, there are no drawings for them
[17:48:53] <IchGuckLive> build the CNXC yourself on the manuell Harware
[17:49:06] <IG-garage> and mill is for metal/steel sheets, aluminum
[17:50:31] <IG-garage> i don't have anything, I would order all the stuff for such a conversion to CNC for money as well.
[17:50:36] <IchGuckLive> yes ofcause ther are many russion mashines look around you in the newspapers
[17:50:56] <IG-garage> yeah, will keep money for it.
[17:51:20] <IchGuckLive> for a shop setup you will need to do some stuff yourself
[17:51:36] <IG-garage> like what?
[17:51:59] <Tom_itx> if you don't know maybe you don't need a shop
[17:52:37] <IG-garage> i just don't quite understand
[17:53:14] <IG-garage> we had some stuff in MRO shop, not everything I want to see in my garage
[17:54:17] <IchGuckLive> first you need to decide what the mashine must do then go on
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[17:56:54] <IG-garage> yeah, for example lathe - small details and e.g. axes for motorcycle, and some stuff with maximal diameter of 200 mm. and table of cnc mill is desired to be relatively big or with big travles if it's a turret mill.
[17:59:07] <IG-garage> i'm actually known at friends as the one who doesn't fear of hard labour in big dirty projects. A friend of mine who uses my garage from time to time wanted to buy that lathe (because know I mill and do turning relatively carefully).
[17:59:47] <IG-garage> I now have come to a calmness in my mind. Will having money and do something by chance.
[18:00:19] <IchGuckLive> witch city or part of Russia ?
[18:00:40] <IG-garage> i'll point in google maps
[18:00:54] <IchGuckLive> no name is enoph
[18:01:15] <IchGuckLive> Moskau ,Nowosibirsk
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[18:01:26] <IchGuckLive> Minsk
[18:02:40] <IG-garage> Kuzbass
[18:03:25] <IG-garage> Southwest of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuzbass
[18:03:40] <IchGuckLive> ok
[18:03:41] <IG-garage> *of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuzbass_Region
[18:03:58] <IchGuckLive> how far from Kemerova ?
[18:04:11] <IchGuckLive> how far from Kemerovo ?
[18:04:25] <JT-Shop> capacitors for power supplies are aluminum type?
[18:04:33] <Tom_itx> generally yes
[18:04:49] <IG-garage> 4 hours of ride
[18:04:54] <JT-Shop> thanks, that narrows down the choices by a billion lol
[18:05:02] <Tom_itx> yup
[18:05:22] <Tom_itx> use those for storage and smaller ones for filtering
[18:05:28] <Tom_itx> if need be
[18:05:41] <IG-garage> up and down through hills, that's the road from Novokuznetsk to Kemerovo
[18:05:41] <IchGuckLive> sale
[18:05:54] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, also, you would do better with several smaller ones over one big one
[18:06:14] <Tom_itx> lower esr
[18:06:16] <JT-Shop> I'm replacing the caps in my power supply of my mill
[18:06:21] <Tom_itx> ok
[18:06:32] <IchGuckLive> IG-garage: Russia, Kemerovo, 8 Khimikov Ave
[18:06:43] <IG-garage> and what?
[18:06:47] <JT-Shop> they have to match up the hole spacing and size pretty close
[18:06:50] <IchGuckLive> 2 mashines
[18:06:54] <IG-garage> what is there?
[18:07:01] <andypugh> anonimasu: I don't _think_ so. But the firmwares are available from that PCW chap.
[18:07:01] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, i thought you had that figured out already
[18:07:24] <JT-Shop> I can't find where I wrote it down :/
[18:07:28] <IchGuckLive> IG-garage: second hand mashine sale
[18:07:30] <Tom_itx> heh
[18:07:51] <Tom_itx> it would be in the logs
[18:08:04] <IG-garage> IchGuckLive: it's more interesting how have you found it out
[18:08:10] <L84Supper> ok need servos, and +/- 5 micron repeatabily and accuracy over an A4 bed
[18:08:28] * JT-Shop wonders if I posted a link
[18:08:39] <IchGuckLive> IG-garage: google !
[18:08:40] <Tom_itx> i think you did
[18:08:54] <archivist_emc> L84Supper, now you are getting fussy :)
[18:08:58] <IG-garage> IchGuckLive: and the search query looks like . . . ?
[18:09:40] <L84Supper> archivist_emc: heh , it's what the other flatbed printers claim in their specs
[18:09:52] <IchGuckLive> IG-garage: russia milling machine second hand sale
[18:10:00] <Tom_itx> <JT-Shop> http://capacitoredge.kemet.com/capedge2/DataSheet?pn=A561DE221M400A
[18:10:19] <IG-garage> how smart!
[18:10:28] <IchGuckLive> ok i need to leave sorry BY for today
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[18:11:16] <JT-Shop> Tom_itx: thanks
[18:11:36] <Tom_itx> that's what logs are for
[18:11:38] <L84Supper> pretty sure they use Parker servo's and screws
[18:12:39] <L84Supper> http://www.dimatix.com/divisions/materials-deposition-division/materials-printer-dmp-3000.asp only $150K ea
[18:12:45] <archivist_emc> L84Supper, I know how difficult it is to measure 5 microns, are they just repeating the spec of the feedback sensor :)
[18:13:03] <L84Supper> http://www.dimatix.com/divisions/materials-deposition-division/materials-printer-dmp-5000.asp
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[18:27:26] <IG-garage> always wanted to know how, and now i know: gmax + cnc toolkit = all those curvy 3D thingies in CNC G-code! will try to use it with usual for linux mint 11 Wine
[18:28:25] <archivist_emc> L84Supper, I see that one has the weight for the needed stiffness in the chassis 1100kg
[18:29:33] <L84Supper> archivist_emc: granite table with a vacuum plated on top
[18:30:48] <L84Supper> it will place drops only 20 microns in diameter so you need the 1/2 drop size accuracy since you scan and interlace the prints
[18:31:35] <L84Supper> the actual nozzles are spaced 250 microns apart, so it takes 10 passes or scans to fill an area
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[18:32:11] <archivist_emc> cant it just move slower and print as needed
[18:32:33] <alex4nder> do you guys think the Atom N270 boards have enough performance to run EMC2 well?
[18:32:37] <archivist_emc> drying time?
[18:32:45] <L84Supper> for ink and images it's not too critical but if your printing conductive inks and trying to print 20 micron traces with 20 microns spaces
[18:32:56] <L84Supper> your/you're
[18:33:43] <L84Supper> archivist_emc: i bet that unit creeps along at only a few mm/sec
[18:34:46] <archivist_emc> with enough backlash control (springs) perhaps a lighter machine would be ok
[18:34:46] <L84Supper> I have other heads that print at 1200 dpi and run at 2 meters per second single pass
[18:37:42] <L84Supper> I can get a servo air bearing granite table for far less than 100K
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[18:38:58] <L84Supper> hmmm whats the most expensive EMC2 built to date?
[18:39:20] <L84Supper> system that is
[18:39:43] <JT-Shop> anything on this page to avoid for solder wick? http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Cat=1311239&k=solder%20wick
[18:39:58] <JT-Shop> 177 choices :/
[18:40:03] <L84Supper> alex4nder: yes, the Atom boards are fine, I prefer AMD fusion myself
[18:40:51] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, how big do you need
[18:40:53] <Tom_itx> ?
[18:41:05] <JT-Shop> 1/4" I guess
[18:41:33] <Tom_itx> 50.5.5 soder wick brand
[18:41:37] <Tom_itx> is what i have
[18:42:14] <L84Supper> http://cgi.ebay.com/Dover-Linear-Air-Bearing-Stage-Slide-Table-760mm-30-/400226925205?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d2f623a95
[18:43:16] <Tom_itx> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?vendor=0&keywords=solder+wick+50-5-5
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[18:43:49] <Tom_itx> i have several sizes
[18:43:53] <Tom_itx> that's the widest
[18:44:21] <JT-Shop> I guess you only need it as wide as the solder blob?
[18:44:25] <Tom_itx> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?vendor=0&keywords=soder+wick+80-6-5
[18:44:31] <Tom_itx> i have that one too
[18:44:48] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, it just depends on how fine work you plan to fix
[18:44:56] <Tom_itx> smt i would use narrow stuff
[18:45:02] <JT-Shop> desolder the caps
[18:45:09] <Tom_itx> but for your caps either of those would do
[18:45:12] <JT-Shop> acre of clear board to work with
[18:45:46] <Tom_itx> while you're at it, it's nice to have flux with it
[18:45:56] <Tom_itx> it has flux in it but i generally add a little
[18:46:02] <Tom_itx> kester 186
[18:46:05] <Tom_itx> is a flux pen
[18:46:09] <JT-Shop> ok
[18:46:12] <Tom_itx> will last a lifetime
[18:46:17] <JT-Shop> I have only paste flux
[18:47:28] <Tom_itx> sob, they don't show it anymore
[18:49:33] <Tom_itx> http://ca.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Kester/83-1000-0186/?qs=1rIBfDHV7ieX8jY3zcKJng%3d%3d
[18:51:16] <Tom_itx> so much for RoHs
[18:51:26] <Tom_itx> fackers
[18:52:23] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, you can use the paste too it's just not as handy
[18:52:37] <Tom_itx> the flux in the braid may be enough
[18:52:47] <Tom_itx> i add some if it burns off while i'm working
[18:53:41] <Tom_itx> you could always melt the solder and blast it with your air hose
[18:53:42] <Tom_itx> :)
[18:54:48] <JT-Shop> I have a solder sucker but it works only so so with larger size pins
[18:55:03] <Tom_itx> i have one of those but never use it
[18:55:06] <Tom_itx> i don't like it
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[18:56:58] <Tom_itx> the problem with thru hole components is, even when you get the blob desoldered you still have to heat the board enough to melt both sides so the wire will pull out
[18:57:10] <Tom_itx> or you end up pulling the traces off
[18:57:22] <Tom_itx> use a nice hot iron
[18:57:43] <archivist_emc> heat the wire not the trace
[18:58:02] <Tom_itx> sometimes i've even used 2 held like chop sticks for caps etc so i can get both leads hot at once
[18:58:12] <Tom_itx> yes listen to archivist_emc
[18:58:21] <Tom_itx> or you'll melt the trace off the board
[18:58:57] <JT-Shop> I've heated the wire and pulled at the same time before to get things off
[18:59:10] <archivist_emc> we even had wide tips for the job, plenty of solder so ALL get molten at the same time
[18:59:10] <JT-Shop> sometimes going back and forth
[18:59:44] <Tom_itx> good point, you may want to leave the solder puddle until you get the wires out
[19:00:09] <Tom_itx> then wick it off
[19:00:24] <Tom_itx> postal run.. later
[19:00:27] <archivist_emc> or, solder sucker to remove as much as possible then heat wire and push from the side in contact with the hole side, takes care
[19:01:01] <archivist_emc> I hate wick rarely works well
[19:01:23] <Tom_itx> i use it on smt stuff
[19:01:30] <archivist_emc> needs to be new with good flux
[19:01:34] <Tom_itx> yup
[19:01:41] <Tom_itx> that's why i suggested the extra flux
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[19:09:08] <JT-Shop> Thanks, I have that on order now
[19:25:46] <anonimasu> PCW: are you there?
[19:26:58] <L84Supper> http://www.aerotech.com/products/stages/pro115.html has the repeatability and they are off the shelf
[19:27:31] <anonimasu> L84Supper: they will be $$$$$$$$$$$$$$
[19:27:47] <L84Supper> ~$3200 ea
[19:27:50] <anonimasu> yep
[19:28:19] <anonimasu> you can defenetively build cheaper..
[19:28:48] <L84Supper> whats your time worth?
[19:29:16] <anonimasu> if it's a work project and you can cover that i'd buy them
[19:29:27] <PCW> Yes sort off
[19:29:50] <L84Supper> $50K project for a servo controller table
[19:30:05] <anonimasu> PCW: can you please try to find any time to get me thoose files?
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[19:30:13] <anonimasu> since everything is wired and that's the missing part :)
[19:30:38] * anonimasu knows he's a pita in friday afternoon
[19:31:13] <PCW> You will need to setup the 8I20s current max current (needs windows unfortch)
[19:31:54] <andypugh> PCW: You can change the max current in EMC2
[19:32:13] <IG-garage> pcw why needs Windows? any special software which works with this 8I20 ?
[19:32:20] <PCW> Not with much safety
[19:33:14] <PCW> Actually I think the utility could be compiled to run under linux, just have not tried
[19:33:15] <andypugh> Yes, I should have said that there is an undocumented, little-tested procedure to change the max current using EMC2. :-)
[19:33:41] <PCW> Yes I forgot you have a back door
[19:34:32] <IG-garage> L84Supper: What is the price for e.g. http://www.aerotech.com/products/stages/pro115.html (just interesting, thinking of it, could probably find the prices myself)
[19:35:20] <PCW> anonimasu: actually forget what I said I thing the default max current setting is 7.5A which should be nice and safe for testing
[19:35:32] <PCW> I think
[19:35:37] <L84Supper> IG-garage: $3200 for 300mm w/o motors
[19:36:16] <IG-garage> omg. is it really relies on air or something? it has no linear bearings or what?
[19:36:41] <anonimasu> I think that it should be
[19:36:47] <anonimasu> my max is more then that anyway
[19:36:48] <L84Supper> IG-garage: air bearings or linear servo would be several times more
[19:37:04] <IG-garage> "air bearings"?
[19:37:09] <Tom_itx> yes
[19:37:30] <anonimasu> actually no, it's too high
[19:37:35] <anonimasu> continous stall current 6.4
[19:37:49] <anonimasu> err peak stall current 22A
[19:37:51] <anonimasu> :D
[19:37:53] <anonimasu> safe.
[19:38:21] <anonimasu> at 460v..
[19:38:28] <anonimasu> PCW: so, no need to change that
[19:38:39] <PCW> OK so you will need to set the max current to 22A (2200) eventually
[19:38:54] <anonimasu> maybe.
[19:39:02] <anonimasu> I have a small lathe :D
[19:39:12] <anonimasu> so, at stall they will push my bed ~
[19:39:13] * IG-garage makes an assumtipn that air bearings = magnets
[19:39:20] <anonimasu> no, they arent
[19:39:26] <anonimasu> they are different altogther
[19:39:41] <IG-garage> oh, sorry, http://www.newwayairbearings.com/
[19:39:55] <anonimasu> PCW: the steppers on the machine gave like 3N/m peak or something
[19:40:07] <anonimasu> the motors are rated at 13.5
[19:40:21] <PCW> OK
[19:40:56] <anonimasu> and my alternate motors that i intended to build with are at 2.5N/m peak
[19:41:07] <anonimasu> so, probably 7.5 will be more then enough
[19:43:39] <L84Supper> PCW: BMS60 http://www.aerotech.com/products/motors/bmsspecs.html you have an amplifier for this size don't you?
[19:51:36] <IG-garage> heh, used 18 mb HeeksCNC.exe to install into linux mint 11 with its standard Wine. Programs run but will it 'do the stuff'?
[19:51:57] <PCW> The 7I39H would do
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[19:57:30] <IG-garage> making script but does not create the g-code, maybe needs python pl to be installed
[19:59:45] <alex4nder> fun fact for the day.. the gecko G540 fits nicely in width of an ATX power supply
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[20:00:23] <IG-garage> i have one. planned to use for accumulator on bike, but can send it to you
[20:04:41] <IG-garage> no, in Wine, heekscnc isn't working. makes program but doesn't turn it into g-code
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[20:12:09] <andypugh> PCW: What is the register stride on the UARTs?
[20:12:30] <andypugh> Firmware says 4, sounds wrog-ish
[20:17:32] <elmo40> IG-garage: why using wine for heeks? can't compile it for linux?
[20:17:51] <IG-garage> elmo40: I thought it will work
[20:17:56] <elmo40> I see
[20:18:15] <elmo40> why wouldn't it, though? what does it depend on that wine isn't offering?
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[20:18:37] <IG-garage> i have compiled it, and even saved this all. i have about 500 mb of *.deb files for EMC and HeeksCNC, Wine and LIVES
[20:18:59] <IG-garage> i don't know
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[20:21:31] <PCW> andypugh it is wrong should be 0x10
[20:22:50] <PCW> I'll go search out the error in the VHDL
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[20:27:26] <andypugh> This one might have been built by Issssy
[20:27:47] <andypugh> isssy: Did you build this bitfile?
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[20:28:59] <anonimasu> how heavy is it to build your own bitfile?
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[20:29:25] <isssy> what bitfile
[20:29:32] <anonimasu> for a 7i43
[20:29:58] <andypugh> The uart one I am using, which I think you sent me.
[20:30:00] <isssy> the ones i am using is for mesa5I23 , but the ucf is modified to have uarts as well
[20:30:05] <isssy> yes
[20:30:15] <isssy> it was compiled by me
[20:30:23] <isssy> but made by PCW
[20:30:37] <andypugh> <quizzical look>
[20:35:12] <PCW> I think theres actually a limitation in the IDROM format that limits the number of instance strides, I need to take a careful look to see if it can be fixed in a compatible way
[20:35:32] <andypugh> I can hard-code for the moment.
[20:40:41] <PCW> Yeah its really a bug in the IDROM format (only 2 instance strides allowed)
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[21:03:43] * anonimasu just finished another layer of paint on the lathe
[21:03:49] <anonimasu> actually the enclosure
[21:03:50] <anonimasu> :)
[21:03:54] <anonimasu> white and nice
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[21:09:37] <andypugh> PCW: Something I am not clear on, if you push 4 bytes, is that transmitted as 4 x ( 8bit + stop + parity ) or 32 bits + stop + parity?
[21:14:04] <anonimasu> PCW: will you have time to get me the bitfiles before the weekend?(it's allright if you cant, i'll just wire up something else meanwhile
[21:17:34] <PCW> The current UARTs have no parity option (I will add this eventually as a bit or two in the control regs)
[21:17:36] <PCW> when you send 4 characters you will get 4 8 bit, 1 start bit 1 stop bit characters out the serial link
[21:18:33] <PCW> (There's no standard UART that could deal with 32 bit chars)
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[21:19:01] <PCW> anonimasu: yeah in a bit
[21:19:48] <andypugh> Good, thanks
[21:21:21] <theorbtwo> andypugh: Generally, you either use 7-bit characters plus a parity bit, or 8-bit characters, no parity. 8-bit charaters plus a parity bit is ... odd.
[21:21:27] <theorbtwo> Not impossible, I think, just odd.
[21:21:40] <anonimasu> PCW: perfect!
[21:22:08] <PCW> Andy on the instance stride I think Ill introduce IDROM V4, remove the instance stride stuff from the general section
[21:22:09] <PCW> and use the module ID stride info as 2 nibble exponents for the module specific strides
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[21:23:14] <andypugh> instance stride is 4 for the FIFO counts, I suppose
[21:23:18] <PCW> If I had 1/2 a brain idda dun it that way ta bigin wth
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[21:27:18] <PCW> andypugh: yes currently thats how it is but thats wrong all regs should use the same stride
[21:27:35] <PCW> I need to fix it
[21:32:15] <PCW> andy which bitfile are you testing with? I'll patch it to have the same stride for all regs
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[21:36:44] <andypugh> svstua6_6_6.bit
[21:38:31] <JT-Shop> anonimasu: got a photo of the paint job?
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[21:42:30] <PCW> andy for which FPGA?
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[21:43:31] <andypugh> 5i23
[21:43:57] <andypugh> I am tempted to assume that tx bitrate and rx bitrate are the same. Does that seem reasonable?
[21:44:09] <PCW> OK better his be fixed now than later
[21:45:00] <PCW> Well they are separate registers so you are free to do as you chose, but I would set both with THEBAUDRATE.0
[21:47:04] <IG-garage> have gust run in wine GMax with CNC Toolkit
[21:49:57] <PCW> anonimasu: what did you want on the 7I47 (step/dir + encoders would be common)
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[21:56:30] <anonimasu> just encoders
[21:56:47] <anonimasu> but step dir + encoders is fine
[21:58:09] <PCW> OK Ill just cut/paste a standard 7I47 config to IO0..23 (4 step_dir. 4 enc, 2 PWM/DIR)
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[22:17:20] <anonimasu> PCW: that'll be fine
[22:38:56] <PCW> andypugh: note that this UART re-alignment breaks BSPI as well...
[22:39:18] <andypugh> Ugh!
[22:39:47] <PCW> Well better now than later when there are more around
[22:39:50] <andypugh> OK, send me new bitfles and regmaps and I will fix it.
[22:40:15] <andypugh> Something else has me puzzled.
[22:41:01] <andypugh> How does the UART know what width of FIFO register to put the incoming data in, so that the 2 byte, 3 byte and 4byte pops work?
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[22:42:37] <PCW> let me look Ive forgotten
[22:44:36] <PCW> Heres my comment in the source:
[22:44:38] <PCW> -- The way this mess works is that we have 4 byte wide FIFOs with duplicated data
[22:44:39] <PCW> -- but the readout point is shifted by one byte for each succeeding FIFO so we can read up to
[22:44:41] <PCW> -- 32 bits (4 bytes) at once. Wasteful, but SRL16s are cheap
[22:45:28] <PCW> and the pop size is address dependent
[22:46:15] <andypugh> I guess that you are not expecting people to asynchronously mix data lengths?
[22:47:59] <PCW> Only an issue for EMC, stream uses just read the FIFO count and do the most efficient thing
[22:48:45] <PCW> that is if there are 14 bytes do 4,4,4,2
[22:49:13] <andypugh> Ah, OK, so the incoming bytes get packed into the FIFO?
[22:49:48] <PCW> Yes sure, if you dont care about efficiency, just read bytes
[22:49:48] <andypugh> And the fifo count is in bytes, not FIFOs?
[22:51:35] <PCW> Yes recv is in bytes, xmit is in slots
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[22:53:17] <PCW> each xmit slot holding 1 to 4 bytes
[22:54:21] <PCW> if you only do 8 bit ops, you can ignore all this (but for lots of data you will pay in access time)
[22:59:37] <danimal_garage> hi
[23:03:24] <andypugh> I was just about to decide I could handle the data as char strings, then remembered that C-strings are zero-terminated, so you can't send 0.
[23:08:11] <jdhNC> you could, just don't use any string functions
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[23:08:48] <andypugh> I was wanting to use them as variable-length data
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[23:15:02] <PCW> OK so I fixed you uart strides...
[23:20:15] <andypugh> Thats a worrying elipsis
[23:20:36] <PCW> fixed is a funny word
[23:20:50] <PCW> I fixed the cat
[23:22:06] <PCW> BSPI/DBSPI is fixed as well (but should not harm anyone with just one BSPI)
[23:22:50] <andypugh> I wonder if this will come out? "I ♥ my dog: I ♠ my cat"
[23:23:28] <PCW> Ha! works here
[23:30:26] <PCW> anonimasu:
[23:30:28] <PCW> freeby.mesanet.com/ssst8_4b.bit 7i43 bitfile 8 channel 7I47 pinout mix on io 0..23, sserial 7I44 pinout on io24..47
[23:30:29] <PCW> freeby.mesanet.com/ssst8_4b.bit 5i23 bitfile 8 channel 7I47 pinout mix on io 0..23, 24,47 sserial 7I44 pinout on io48..71
[23:32:02] <PCW> oops last line should be freeby.mesanet.com/sssvst8_8_8.bit 5i23 bitfile 7I47 pinout mix on io 0..23, 24,47 sserial 7I44 pinout on io48..71
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[23:50:04] <PCW> andypugh: freeby.mesanet.com/svstua6_6_6.bit 5i23 bitfile with fixed stride (all regs on indicated stride)
[23:50:06] <PCW> freeby.mesanet.com/regmap updated register map file
[23:50:32] <andypugh> Can you send me those in an email, I am literally moments from bed
[23:51:00] <PCW> yeah
[23:52:24] <PCW> I'm beat, time to go home and talk to the sheep
[23:53:00] <andypugh> No rush, I am away from computers until sunday
[23:53:16] <PCW> its sent
[23:53:57] <anonimasu> PCW: perfect!
[23:53:58] <anonimasu> :)
[23:54:11] <PCW> I dont think the stride thing will hurt anyone as the first instance will be in the same place
[23:54:45] <anonimasu> did you mail me the same files?
[23:54:55] <PCW> anonimasu: well maybe (unchecked) no mail
[23:55:19] <anonimasu> thanks alot! :)
[23:56:51] <PCW> Keep us up to date this stuff is bleeding edge so probably a lot of bumpy road...
[23:56:53] <PCW> Hey this is neat IEEE parallel cables will work with our 5I25 daughtercard power hack
[23:57:13] <anonimasu> I will :)
[23:57:24] <anonimasu> I expect to spin a motor tomorrow with alot of luck
[23:58:01] <PCW> may need andys help and I still need to get you a config file
[23:59:01] <anonimasu> config file? isnt all the stuff showing up since i load hte bitfile(parameters and everything)