#emc | Logs for 2011-07-02

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[00:03:34] <andypugh> Serious tool. Looks like work to use, too, but better than the alternative. http://www.nittokohki.com/tools/archives/HB-15B.html
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[00:04:31] <danimal_garage> whats a gnu?
[00:05:20] <andypugh> It's what you get when you miss-spell "gun". It's also an alternative name for a Wildebeest.
[00:06:10] <danimal_garage> ahh i see
[00:08:10] <Eartaker> lol
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[00:10:24] <andypugh> If anyone recalls my dithering about new bearings for my lathe Headstock: I put in some new Indian SKF bearings and I am astonished how quiet it now is. I hadn't noticed that it was at all loud before, but now it is very much quieter. A good sign.
[00:10:52] <danimal_garage> silence scares me
[00:11:02] <danimal_garage> i prefer a little noise
[00:11:13] <danimal_garage> lets me know i'm still alive :)
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[00:11:17] <Eartaker> what kind of lathe?
[00:11:43] <andypugh> Ghastly 9x30 type cheapy.
[00:12:07] <Eartaker> where did you get it from?
[00:12:11] <Eartaker> I have a 9X30
[00:12:43] <danimal_garage> China
[00:12:46] <danimal_garage> :)
[00:12:59] <andypugh> Eartaker: From http://www.amadeal.co.uk/
[00:13:53] <Eartaker> same thing I have almost...
[00:13:54] <Eartaker> http://www.lathemaster.com/LATHEMASTER9x30Lathe.htm
[00:14:45] <andypugh> Yeah. Looks much the same
[00:15:04] <andypugh> Don't spend too much on the CNC conversion, it will still be a cheap and nasty lathe.
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[00:15:18] <Eartaker> not going to convert it
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[00:15:31] <andypugh> And the spindle drive really is as flimsy as it looks.
[00:15:48] <Eartaker> http://eartaker.net/machining/milling/zx45.php
[00:16:16] <archivist_emc> andypugh, I like how a spare part is on the best seller part of the front page
[00:18:04] <andypugh> Eartaker: Actually, mine is a combined machine. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnBraegy6lA&feature=channel_video_title
[00:20:35] <andypugh> archivist_emc: Yes, those plastic gears die in short order if you try to use a fly cutter. There are metal ones available, but they are horribly noisy.
[00:20:54] <GermainAdrian> andypugh: u made a ballscrew?
[00:21:23] <andypugh> No. I have considered it, but they are so cheap you might as well buy them.
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[00:21:32] <GermainAdrian> how cheap are they?
[00:21:56] <GermainAdrian> I want a power jack with at least 40" range, but they are too expensive
[00:22:38] <andypugh> £4 for 100mm in 16mm. http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/sf1610-ballscrew-p-449.html
[00:23:22] <GermainAdrian> wow a ballnut is 30 pounds
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[00:23:47] <andypugh> 40" of 16mm ballscrew is £28.50.
[00:24:40] <GermainAdrian> nice
[00:24:55] <GermainAdrian> what would be the easiest way to motorize such screws? some kind of gear?
[00:25:02] <andypugh> even the 3205 (1.5") is only £50 for 40"
[00:25:39] <andypugh> I would mount a nut between taper roller bearings and drive it with a belt.
[00:26:26] <GermainAdrian> http://www.powerjacks.com/images/rolaram-right-angle.jpg
[00:26:30] <GermainAdrian> this is what i am trying to make on the cheap
[00:27:08] <andypugh> Basically like https://picasaweb.google.com/bodgesoc/Gibbs#5559905928369253474 and https://picasaweb.google.com/bodgesoc/Gibbs#5613355803900221842 Which are two views of the same assembly I made.
[00:27:44] <GermainAdrian> yup, same thing
[00:27:50] <GermainAdrian> only i'll be lifting a desk with that lol
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[00:28:48] <andypugh> Go to the scrap-yard and buy a couple of motorised car seat rails.
[00:29:03] <GermainAdrian> the range is too short i think
[00:29:27] <andypugh> They will be so cheap you can stack them.
[00:30:36] <GermainAdrian> hm.
[00:31:12] <GermainAdrian> will it life 100-150 lbs tho?
[00:31:14] <GermainAdrian> lift*
[00:31:31] <andypugh> The rearmost screw and nut here is spare: https://picasaweb.google.com/bodgesoc/Gibbs#5600023840516281666 if you are anywhere near Basildon.
[00:31:51] <GermainAdrian> lol im in canada
[00:32:04] <andypugh> GermainAdrian: Yes. They are hard to stall if you try to.
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[00:32:57] <GermainAdrian> It'd be nice to get custom long rails for that.
[00:34:46] <Eartaker> GermainAdrian the head of my Mill weighs 150lbs and I use ball screws
[00:35:19] <GermainAdrian> oh i know ballscrews will lift that, i was talking about car seats lol
[00:35:27] <Eartaker> oh lol
[00:36:26] <GermainAdrian> or I could just get one giant screw and not worry about anything
[00:36:47] <danimal_garage> thats what she said
[00:36:55] <andypugh> Fee Fi Fo Fum! Hello Sailor!
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[00:37:05] <danimal_garage> lol
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[00:38:29] <nicko> ello andy
[00:38:35] <nicko> (1:1)
[00:38:41] <andypugh> You realise this is a solved problem? http://news.thomasnet.com/fullstory/Workstation-can-be-adjusted-for-height-8436
[00:39:28] <nicko> just reading the forum - our discussion re coodinated motion
[00:39:56] <andypugh> <pleads 3 glasses of wine>
[00:40:04] <nicko> ha ha
[00:40:35] <nicko> fair enough, I should be packing the car for a trip down country to buy a new spindle
[00:40:36] <GermainAdrian> andypugh: it is ofc a solved problem. Ive seen many online. decent one costs over a grand.
[00:41:17] <andypugh> Aye, and by the time you have built one, you will be close unless your time is free and you have the part.
[00:41:38] <andypugh> nicko: I still think I am right about most of it.
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[00:41:55] <GermainAdrian> andypugh: I have plenty of spare time.
[00:42:07] <andypugh> You can consider the motion as independent orthogonal components.
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[00:43:16] <andypugh> GermainAdrian: How about a hydraulic desk?
[00:43:26] <GermainAdrian> andypugh: isnt hydraulics more expensive
[00:43:36] <GermainAdrian> i dont mind how it gets lifted, as long as its hygenic/inexpensive
[00:43:39] <andypugh> Depends what you can find cheap
[00:43:41] <GermainAdrian> i thought electric was the way to go
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[00:44:18] <GermainAdrian> andypugh: how much are cylinders with that much range?
[00:44:28] <andypugh> I assume this is a one-off and that parts supply for future production is a non-issue
[00:44:35] <GermainAdrian> yes ofc its a one off
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[00:45:12] <andypugh> GermainAdrian: Well, I would be looking to make the cylinders.
[00:45:38] <andypugh> http://www.metals4u.co.uk/products.asp?cat_id=177
[00:45:42] <GermainAdrian> with hydraulics i'd need pumps etc
[00:45:46] <andypugh> With screwed-on seal housings.
[00:46:04] <GermainAdrian> I am very familiar with electric equipment, not so with hydraulics.
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[00:46:56] <andypugh> OK, let's start at the beginning. What, why, where and how often?
[00:47:19] <GermainAdrian> how often what
[00:47:27] <andypugh> How often will it move?
[00:47:33] <GermainAdrian> daily
[00:47:37] <GermainAdrian> every few hours
[00:47:44] <andypugh> Why?
[00:48:02] <GermainAdrian> because id like to alternate between standing and sitting lol
[00:48:08] <GermainAdrian> I work long hours.
[00:48:09] <GermainAdrian> http://www.powerjacks.com/images/rolaram-right-angle.jpg
[00:48:14] <GermainAdrian> this is what I am trying to copy
[00:48:19] <GermainAdrian> wait
[00:48:23] <GermainAdrian> http://www.ergodepot.com/v/vspfiles/photos/AD127HD-2.jpg
[00:48:24] <GermainAdrian> this
[00:49:06] <GermainAdrian> I already have a similar frame. I could cut the legs, and stick a ballscrew in each leg.
[00:49:27] <GermainAdrian> and motorize both legs with one motor via a belt. or something.
[00:49:38] <andypugh> Ballscrew is pointless for that. You might as well use studding and nuts.
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[00:50:29] <andypugh> And how tall are you that the difference between standing and sitting is 40"
[00:51:52] <GermainAdrian> 40
[00:52:00] <GermainAdrian> 40" - that's so I have a margin of error
[00:52:08] <andypugh> The ideal thing would be the power tailgate struts from a car with an electric hatchback.
[00:52:13] <GermainAdrian> in case I make mistakes with the design, or realize I am limited
[00:52:15] <GermainAdrian> after I get the parts
[00:52:35] <GermainAdrian> hm.
[00:53:09] <andypugh> I am not sure how many there are, but monday might find me prowling the crash-test car park at work for a C394
[00:53:30] <GermainAdrian> arent those hydraulic
[00:53:36] <andypugh> C344 I mean
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[00:54:08] <andypugh> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB-nkGvp1so
[00:54:12] <moopy> are you guys motor industry professionals?
[00:55:30] <andypugh> I wouldn't claim to be very professional, but yes, I work for Ford
[00:55:46] <moopy> my dad used to work for ford
[00:56:26] <moopy> I dont think he liked it
[00:58:21] <moopy> he left in the 1970s
[00:59:00] <andypugh> It's a lot different.
[00:59:05] <moopy> I always prefered citroens
[00:59:33] <moopy> i could never work for a french person though
[00:59:35] <andypugh> Well, I have never actually owned a car. Too many wheels.
[00:59:44] <GermainAdrian> interesting tech: http://www.kataka.dk/pages.asp?id=5
[01:00:02] <GermainAdrian> but probably expensive.
[01:00:11] <moopy> how can you work for ford and not drive a car??
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[01:01:09] <andypugh> GermainAdrian: That is very neat.
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[01:01:35] <moopy> do ford run a lot of emc controlled production line??
[01:01:40] <andypugh> moopy: Well, if I need a car, I take one home for "evaluation" :-)
[01:01:53] <andypugh> But generally I use bikes and motorbikes.
[01:02:10] <moopy> yeah my dad told me he used to drive merc and jags as evaluation cars
[01:02:44] <moopy> I suppose they have one of every type of car for evaluation
[01:03:58] <andypugh> Not generally, I get to drive the prototypes of the Ford cars. OK, so they are held together with duct tape and don't generally entirely work, but the fuel is free.
[01:05:33] <moopy> what are the current prototypes like?
[01:05:38] <GermainAdrian> free towing?
[01:05:49] <GermainAdrian> in case it doesnt work
[01:05:58] <andypugh> Yes :-)
[01:06:13] <moopy> do they have any fuel cell electric cars in proto?
[01:06:28] <GermainAdrian> what about battery electrics
[01:06:40] <GermainAdrian> ford said they are going to come up with some
[01:07:15] <moopy> don't they normally just change a few parts on a standard car for testing??
[01:07:49] <andypugh> Well, where we are now the current cars are truly horrible. The drivability is so bad that I think I pulled a sub-frame bolt out kangarroing to the fuel pump. (it's a 400Nm diesel. It can do 400Nm on cylinder 1 and 0Nm on cylinder 3. That breaks things)
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[01:08:40] <andypugh> And yes, we have BEVs actually on sale, but I work on diesels.
[01:09:19] <moopy> so the common rail diesels have problems?
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[01:10:07] <moopy> I really have never looked at ford diesels
[01:10:16] <GermainAdrian> how good are the BEVs, andypugh
[01:10:29] <moopy> BEVs suck
[01:10:35] <moopy> full stop
[01:10:41] <moopy> its all eco hype
[01:10:42] <GermainAdrian> lol why ?
[01:10:58] <GermainAdrian> i just want to save on gas, I dont care if it causes kitten holocaust
[01:11:02] <moopy> they are far less efficient than a decent diesel engine
[01:11:14] <GermainAdrian> how are they less efficient
[01:11:27] <andypugh> moopy: No, by the time we finish, the diesels are good. But the point is that we need to make them work. The project I am now on (2014 Mondeo) is still horribly rough.
[01:11:29] <GermainAdrian> electric motors are 90%+ efficient
[01:11:55] <GermainAdrian> and electricity is cheap, where I live.
[01:12:33] <moopy> transmmission of generation of electricity 85%, electricity down power lines 80%, charging batterys 70%, electric motor 95% cumulative efficiency 50%
[01:12:46] <GermainAdrian> and?
[01:13:02] <moopy> diesel is only expensive because of tax
[01:13:03] <andypugh> And all the folk know who have driven the electric Transit think it is brilliant. It's very quick, and very quiet. But it can only do 100 miles a day. For some jobs that's not a problem.
[01:13:05] <GermainAdrian> it's still cheaper, if batteries would come down in price.
[01:13:18] <GermainAdrian> yes. I'd like a car like that, andy
[01:13:27] * GermainAdrian drives once a week
[01:13:47] <moopy> if electric vehicles become popular the government will find a way to tax batteries and electricity for vehicles
[01:14:32] <moopy> a decent common rail engine could be over 60% efficient
[01:14:50] <GermainAdrian> yes, but it still runs on crude oil, which isnt cheap.
[01:14:51] <andypugh> moopy: Sounds optimistic
[01:15:07] <moopy> if the power station runs on coal, oil or gas, then electricty is less efficient
[01:15:18] <GermainAdrian> my electricity is nearly 100% nuclear
[01:15:25] <GermainAdrian> and I pay 5c/kwh
[01:15:33] <andypugh> Yeah, nuclear is the only way to go. (and probably Thorium)
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[01:15:57] <GermainAdrian> so that would cost about a dollar to charge up a car like chevy volt or nissan leaf
[01:16:02] <GermainAdrian> 30 bucks a month on gas, driving every day.
[01:16:20] <GermainAdrian> that's like 20% of what people normally pay
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[01:17:05] <moopy> when the government adds tax it will work out the same
[01:17:09] <andypugh> If we converted (by magic) all power stations to uranium fission tomorrow, then we would run out of known reserves of Uranium in 7 years. If we switched to Thorium we would run out of known reserves in 20,000 years.
[01:17:19] <GermainAdrian> andypugh: there is plenty of uranium
[01:17:21] <GermainAdrian> tons.
[01:17:35] <andypugh> Yes, the key there is "known reserves"
[01:17:38] <GermainAdrian> we just dont enrich it.
[01:17:43] <moopy> fukashima is cool
[01:18:04] <GermainAdrian> 95% of mined uranium is never used for energy
[01:19:00] <andypugh> Considering that the cost of fuel is a tiny percentage of the cost of running the plant, it can get 1000 times more expensive, and not be a problem, which means that commercial reserves are much, much, bigger than known reserves.
[01:19:22] <GermainAdrian> well, i dont know about 1000x
[01:19:38] <moopy> I like the idea of cold fusion
[01:19:50] <GermainAdrian> anyway, we'll just irradiate depleted uranium, if uranium prices become too expensive to mine
[01:20:03] <GermainAdrian> we've got tons of it, and nobody uses it, except to blow up iraqis with DU rounds.
[01:20:14] <andypugh> moopy: Well, to an extent, yes. You can hit an old design of reactor with an all-time big earthquake and then a huge Tsunami, and, actually, nothing all that bad happens.
[01:20:26] <GermainAdrian> well, fukushima was kind of bad.
[01:20:33] <GermainAdrian> it was supposed to be decomissioned this year.
[01:20:46] <andypugh> That got a bit harder
[01:20:49] <moopy> fukashima is probably 100 time worse than chernobyl
[01:20:50] <GermainAdrian> lol
[01:21:01] <andypugh> moopy: Bollocks.
[01:21:20] <GermainAdrian> it is pretty bad, andy
[01:21:26] <moopy> they have exceptionally good public relations
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[01:21:49] <moopy> i.e. they lie about just how bad things are
[01:22:25] <moopy> the explosion in the no.4 fuel pool vapourised 50 tons on uranium into the atmosphere
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[01:22:34] <andypugh> Well, it is falling into the sea and being diluted, rather than falling onto Europe and being complained about.
[01:22:46] <GermainAdrian> is alibaba a trusted website for purchases?
[01:22:51] <GermainAdrian> tons of lifting columns
[01:23:07] <andypugh> I think alibaba is just a supplier index.
[01:23:15] <GermainAdrian> yes but i think they are also an escrow like ebay
[01:23:16] <moopy> and all the pacific salmon that is shipped to europe over the next 100 years will increase cancers by 12%
[01:23:22] <GermainAdrian> bought tons of stuff from ebay
[01:23:25] <GermainAdrian> but never from alibaba
[01:23:36] <GermainAdrian> and not just salmon
[01:23:55] <GermainAdrian> lol 100 years
[01:23:57] <andypugh> I don't eat pacific Salmon.
[01:24:24] <moopy> fukashima will be much worse, but the problem is how to effectivly measure what damage is caused
[01:24:27] <andypugh> And a 12% increase in a small risk is still a small risk.
[01:24:49] <GermainAdrian> Min. Order: 1 Piece FOB Price: US $50-200 / Piece
[01:24:55] <GermainAdrian> chinese prices are so low its ridiculous
[01:24:59] <GermainAdrian> must be uranium infused or something.
[01:25:27] <andypugh> Yeah. I saw iPod charger plugs at £2 including shipping.
[01:25:31] <moopy> don't eat chinese or japanese food for the next 100 years
[01:25:59] <GermainAdrian> norwegian salmon it is
[01:26:01] <andypugh> That's a switchmode PSU moulded into a mains plug with a USB conector.
[01:26:27] <moopy> chinese prices are amazing
[01:26:33] <GermainAdrian> consumer stuff in volume are cheap
[01:26:37] <GermainAdrian> who buys lifting columns.
[01:26:40] <andypugh> I have visited the most radioactive place in the UK.
[01:26:48] <moopy> they work for a bowl of rice a day in china
[01:27:03] <moopy> you have been to windscale/selafield??
[01:27:15] <moopy> or cornwall?
[01:27:16] <andypugh> No, Chert Hall, Giants Cave.
[01:27:54] <moopy> its in granite rock?
[01:28:45] <andypugh> Limestone cave, but a band of chert.
[01:28:54] <GermainAdrian> we've got a major radon problem in canada
[01:28:58] <moopy> I heard cornwall was most radioactive area of uk?
[01:29:12] <GermainAdrian> our radon exposure limits are already the highest in the world, and still there are pockets where its unsafe even by our standards
[01:29:19] <GermainAdrian> and i think european standards are nearly 10x lower
[01:29:23] <moopy> in corwall people have to have their cellars ventilated to remove the radon
[01:29:33] <GermainAdrian> yep
[01:30:21] <andypugh> Yes, and/or build in a radon barrier. http://www.screwfix.com/search.do;jsessionid=ybzgTT0bGVnWjb3FLJt6nmpGGhS2yGsGs73Cyd96Q4dVZhcp9R6h!1645518977?fh_search=radon
[01:30:56] <andypugh> That's a generic builder's merchants. Odd to see radon mentioned in that context.
[01:32:29] <andypugh> The cave is a bit radon-y but also has no ventilation. So the levels build up a lot. Not a wise place to smoke.
[01:33:55] <moopy> it is terrible how there are risks everywhere, i am worried i will get cancer now
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[01:34:49] <moopy> the microwaves from my cpu and monitor are irradiating me
[01:35:04] <GermainAdrian> thats a nice biz
[01:35:28] <GermainAdrian> 200 bucks for lifting columns, slap a top, 1000 bucks
[01:37:06] <GermainAdrian> andypugh: why not a wise place to smoke
[01:37:10] <GermainAdrian> radon is a noble gas
[01:37:50] <jdhNC> I 'made' lots of the fuel at fukushima
[01:39:18] <andypugh> GermainAdrian: Yes, but if you inhale soot particles with radon in them, you don't breathe it out again as soon.
[01:39:32] <GermainAdrian> if it happens to decay in your lung.
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[01:41:21] <andypugh> The probability is the same, the time in the lung is higher if it has been adsorbed into a smoke particle than if it is still in the gas. Its a multiplicative factor that you can avoid.
[01:43:48] <andypugh> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN7rOZLbGP4
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[01:48:36] <GermainAdrian> I bought glasses from china for 12 bucks.
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[01:48:52] <GermainAdrian> prescription eyeglasses. same thing, if not better, than my $400 locally bought glasses.
[01:48:58] <GermainAdrian> I hope its the same with lifting columns.
[01:49:25] <jdhNC> what's a lifting column?
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[02:06:52] <andypugh> jdhNC: It's a self-contained linear actuator.
[02:09:33] <andypugh> Intersting machine. Multi-head router. http://www.linuxcnc.org/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,20/func,view/catid,38/id,10910/limit,6/limitstart,48/lang,english/#11052
[02:10:13] <andypugh> Maybe I should have charged for that driver :-)
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[02:10:29] <GermainAdrian> half of alibaba looks like scam
[02:10:45] <mikeggg> ohhh don't say that!
[02:10:48] <andypugh> Yeah, I get that impression.
[02:10:49] <GermainAdrian> industrial suppliers who claim they can ship 10k linear actuators per month, yet have the chinese version of @hotmail.com addresses
[02:10:56] <mikeggg> I just ordered an Ipod case from HK off alibaba
[02:11:03] <mikeggg> err iphone
[02:11:06] <GermainAdrian> why use alibaba for that
[02:11:11] <GermainAdrian> there are better websites for stuff like that
[02:11:15] <mikeggg> i dunno, it was cheap!
[02:11:16] <GermainAdrian> dinodirect and dealextreme are legit
[02:11:16] <andypugh> Like eBay
[02:11:20] <mikeggg> fully assembled
[02:11:20] <GermainAdrian> ive used them
[02:11:30] <GermainAdrian> andypugh: dinodirect and dealextreme also work
[02:11:37] <mikeggg> yeah, I found the same seller on ebay
[02:11:39] <GermainAdrian> they ship, and if anything, paypal will reimburse
[02:11:47] <mikeggg> could have bought it there for $5 more
[02:11:55] <andypugh> Another is http://www.ctctools.biz/servlet/StoreFront
[02:12:00] <mikeggg> i hate paying the ebay tax if I don't have to
[02:13:07] <mikeggg> hey, how do you relate the AC voltage you measure with a multi-meter to the DC voltage you'll get out of a rectifier?
[02:13:15] <mikeggg> multiply by sqrt(2)
[02:13:17] <mikeggg> or something?
[02:13:41] <andypugh> Darn! Now I am trying to resist http://www.ctctools.biz/servlet/the-78/TOOLMAKERS-MICROADJUSTABLE-ANGLEBLOCK-%23B02/Detail and http://www.ctctools.biz/servlet/the-90/0-dsh-1%22-%280-dsh-25MM%29-DIGITAL-HIGH/Detail
[02:13:55] <GermainAdrian> mikegg: that would depend on the rectifier
[02:14:20] <andypugh> mikegg: I think it might be (sqrt(3)/2)
[02:14:29] <mikeggg> it's something like that
[02:14:33] <mikeggg> can't remember
[02:15:05] <GermainAdrian> is it a full or half wave rectifier
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[02:15:14] <andypugh> 230V is 725V through a doubler..
[02:15:29] <mikeggg> could be either, haven't bought it yet..
[02:15:45] <mikeggg> lemme see what I bought last time.. one sec
[02:15:47] <andypugh> (then I got scared and put it away)
[02:16:12] <GermainAdrian> it could also be smoothed
[02:16:42] <andypugh> It will also depend heavily on load.
[02:18:39] <mikeggg> last time I used one of these: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=GBJ801-FDI-ND
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[02:18:44] <andypugh> back to CTC, I got them from this channel when I asked about tapered milling cutters. They sell a range ideal for foundry patterns.
[02:18:45] <mikeggg> seemed to work OK
[02:20:04] <GermainAdrian> this: http://images.blog-u.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Diodes-bridge-Rectifier.jpg?
[02:20:08] <GermainAdrian> this: http://images.blog-u.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Diodes-bridge-Rectifier.jpg
[02:20:09] <GermainAdrian> ?
[02:20:21] <mikeggg> wow, 30 bucks for a micron resolution micrometer?
[02:20:49] <mikeggg> yeah, I think it'
[02:20:52] <mikeggg> s one of those
[02:21:03] <mikeggg> has four terminals that match that
[02:21:05] <mikeggg> :)
[02:21:31] <mikeggg> what goes on inside is witchcraft as far as i know
[02:22:20] <GermainAdrian> if its a graetz bridge its Vpeak/sqrt2
[02:22:44] <GermainAdrian> roughly 2/3rds
[02:22:56] <mikeggg> ok, cool
[02:23:01] <mikeggg> thank you
[02:23:34] <mikeggg> I think the transformer I have driving my stepper now is going to work with the 7i39
[02:23:50] <mikeggg> just have to tap off in a different place
[02:31:02] <andypugh> mikegg: Yes, that's a very precise micrometer for the price. I wonder how accurate it is?
[02:32:21] <mikeggg> do you have a set of gage blocks
[02:32:24] <GermainAdrian> electronic?
[02:32:33] <mikeggg> as long as the error is consistent
[02:32:39] <andypugh> I had one, once.
[02:32:44] <mikeggg> heh
[02:32:58] <GermainAdrian> 25 bucks for one on amazon
[02:34:15] <andypugh> What impresses me is how close the internal and external measurements in digital calipers are. As they are measured by different faces it is not at all guaranteed, but they seem to always be spot on.
[02:35:49] <andypugh> GermainAdrian: Link?
[02:36:07] <GermainAdrian> http://www.amazon.com/0-1-VME-Digital-Micrometer/dp/B0007CXJ8Q/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1309574159&sr=8-1
[02:36:11] <GermainAdrian> not the greatest reviews.
[02:36:23] <GermainAdrian> and a US seller it looks like.
[02:36:41] <andypugh> Not quite the same thing.
[02:36:42] <GermainAdrian> same thing for 14 bucks
[02:36:43] <GermainAdrian> http://www.amazon.com/0-1-VME-Outside-Micrometer-0001/dp/B0007CXJKE/ref=acc_glance_hi_ai_ps_t_3
[02:36:53] <GermainAdrian> what micron micrometer are you talking about?
[02:37:34] <andypugh> http://www.ctctools.biz/servlet/the-90/0-dsh-1%22-%280-dsh-25MM%29-DIGITAL-HIGH/Detail
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[02:39:35] <GermainAdrian> ok so this one is digital
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[02:40:37] <andypugh> And so very precise. Not necessarily commensurately accurate.
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[02:54:43] <GermainAdrian> linear actuators from china are 40 bucks a piece, 30-40 bucks shipping
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[03:24:47] <aitalmac01> hello everyone
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[03:25:45] <aitalmac01> Can someonehelp me with installation of rtai_smimy CPU has a very big latency is an Atom d425
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[03:26:10] <aitalmac01> i want to activate the rtai_smi Module to disable the latency
[03:26:24] <aitalmac01> but after adding the module EMC does not start
[03:26:28] <aitalmac01> gives me error
[03:27:25] <aitalmac01> i'm going to put it in a pastebin in a sec
[03:27:52] <aitalmac01> http://pastebin.com/jjgU0Yrr
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[03:45:52] <ve7it> aitalmac01, insmod: error inserting '/usr/realtime-2.6.32-122-rtai/modules/rtai_smi.ko': -1 No such device and [ 967.692237] RTAI: Intel chipset not found....
[03:46:17] <ve7it> aitalmac01, you cant use the smi module with non intel cou's
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[03:47:55] <ve7it> aitalmac01, next step is probably to try a different video card and make sure you you do not have any usb devices plugged in
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[04:32:37] <aitalmac01> well the CPU is intel
[04:33:08] <aitalmac01> and i am running the system in a USB
[04:33:14] <aitalmac01> stick
[04:33:57] <aitalmac01> the problem is as described with the SMI every few secdonds the CPU has crazy latency li 250000
[04:35:12] <aitalmac01> but normally it round at less than 10000
[04:36:25] <aitalmac01> the cpu is inte atom D425, i'm using a mini iTX motherboard
[04:36:46] <aitalmac01> with no HD, i have install ubuntu on a memory stick
[04:37:27] <aitalmac01> i've use the 10.10 livecd with EMC installed
[05:01:43] <aitalmac01> i've trythe USB on a normal PC and it works good
[05:06:27] <psha> aitalmac01: unless usb stick is made of crap and plastic garbage it's ok
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[05:08:12] <aitalmac01> it's a sandisk 16GB Cruzer blade
[05:08:53] <aitalmac01> new
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[05:35:28] <frankenstein> can someone help me to test a axis?
[05:35:36] <frankenstein> I want to test the x axis
[05:37:39] <archivist_emc> frankenstein, ask a better question so people can help
[05:40:54] <ssi> hooray cnc lathe! :D
[05:41:32] <frankenstein> ok...I one axis for the "brute force stepper driver" how can I test that axis in emc
[05:41:42] <frankenstein> I built*
[05:43:07] <archivist_emc> stepconf has a test mode
[05:43:26] <archivist_emc> but use your axis to test it
[05:45:18] <frankenstein> total newbie to all this...but enough know to soldier a circuit. the driver board creater provided a config file, I have that config file ine emc2 config
[05:46:34] <ssi> http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/264100_687461490212_71107655_34785821_8174659_n.jpg
[05:46:45] <ssi> :D :D
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[06:32:53] <archivist_emc> ssi, you turning a bit fast? or heat treated them?
[06:47:40] <Eartaker> oh wow... those got hot from something...
[06:52:08] <Eartaker> speed/feed needs to be changed.
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[07:48:26] <theos> hi! i am starting out with emc2 on ubuntu lucid. the only problem i am having is that my laptop doesnt have a parallel port. is there a way to use usb ports with emc2?
[07:49:20] <awallin> not really. for realtime stuff atleast.
[07:49:36] <Loetmichel> if you mean a usb->lpt converter: mo, they are not fast enough
[07:49:41] <Loetmichel> no
[07:49:58] <theos> i read that someone is developing a usb driver for emc2?
[07:51:09] <Loetmichel> theos: possible, but then with the complete tracking calculations in the USB-adapter 'cause usb itself has up to 1 second latency
[07:51:15] <awallin> probably for non-realtime devices (push-buttons, wii-boards, and other stuff...)
[07:51:29] <theos> :(
[07:52:21] <archivist_emc> until the latency due to usb discovery is fixed no chance
[07:53:08] <Loetmichel> archivist_emc: isnt fixable 'cause tahts the way usb is desinged
[07:54:01] <archivist_emc> it may be possible to subvert the spec is someone has the time to look into it
[07:54:12] <Loetmichel> i've seen some USB Stepper controllers for use with mach3, but they are expensive 'cause they are the whole motion contoller in hardware
[07:54:25] <Loetmichel> they get only gcodes over usb
[07:54:48] <archivist_emc> yup and they have their own problems
[07:55:56] <Loetmichel> theos: dont your paltop have a PCMCIA port?
[07:56:14] <Loetmichel> or the new small one (forgotten what its called)
[07:56:18] <Loetmichel> laptop
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[07:57:01] <Loetmichel> there ARE some PCMCIA/Cardbus cards with LPT on it which are a real LPT and can be used for EMC2
[07:57:34] <Loetmichel> or: isnt there a docking station for your Laptop with a real LPT?
[07:59:09] <archivist_emc> laptops have latency problems anyway due to power saving
[07:59:35] <awallin> atom mobo + mesa card. go with that. :)
[07:59:55] <Loetmichel> archivist: not all
[08:00:18] <Loetmichel> i've used my old X20 with docking for my mill some time
[08:01:00] <Loetmichel> works flawlessly but is a little slow (700Mhz p3)
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[08:28:45] <theos> Loetmichel, yes i do have a pcmcia slot :)
[08:29:16] <Loetmichel> theos: so maybe you can use a PCMCIA-lpt card
[08:29:29] <theos> great! but how?
[08:30:08] <Loetmichel> just buy one which mounts itself als standard lpt port, i.e. on the right Adresses
[08:30:45] <Loetmichel> there WAS a list of cards which are suitable but i dont find it now.
[08:33:12] <theos> hmm
[08:33:20] <theos> thats a good idea thanks Loetmichel :)
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[08:33:41] <theos> i need to find how to make it work now :D
[08:36:08] <theos> hmm i heard of pcmcia to parallel converters long time back i think
[08:44:01] <theos> you guys are really helpful :)
[08:44:13] <theos> (gals too if any :D)
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[10:52:59] <Loetmichel> theos: This one should do: http://www.delock.de/produkte/gruppen/PCMCIA/Delock_PCMCIA-Adapter_CardBus_zu_1x_Parallel_61612.html
[10:54:18] <Loetmichel> http://www.delock.de/produkte/gruppen/PCMCIA/Delock_PCMCIA_Adapter_CardBus_zu_2_x_seriell_1_x_parallel_61623.html <- this one MAYBE also, but i have found no Adress config in the driver files
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[11:13:42] <theos> thanks Loetmichel :)
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[11:51:00] <jthornton> hi ho hi ho it's off to Jonesboro I go
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[12:01:12] <the_wench> mazafaka_: archivist_emc said ask about SprutCAM in #cam also
[12:02:12] <mazafaka_> yeah, I know, thanks
[12:02:39] <mazafaka_> SprutCAM is somewhat Russian, I'm using its demo version.
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[12:19:25] <JT-Shop> turns out rank, rick, face cord, truck load, load, mess, a lot, are all terms coined by ex horse thieves turned to fire wood mongers used to confuse and cheat their customers
[12:20:20] <Loetmichel> JT-Shop: and that from a guy who measures in inch? ;-)
[12:20:22] <Loetmichel> ;-)
[12:21:35] <JT-Shop> well the unit of measure for firewood is cord
[12:26:04] <JT-Shop> interesting the French designed the metric system in the 1790's
[12:26:23] <JT-Shop> In 1875, most of the leading industrialized countries (including the United States, but not Britain) signed the Treaty of the Meter.
[12:27:41] <JT-Shop> enough fun factoids for the day... off to get the bluewing back from the repair shop
[12:41:37] <Loetmichel> JT-Shop: on the contrary: the unit ti measure firewood is the "raummeter" means one cubic metre of piled up firewod quarters/blocks
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[12:56:03] <geo01005> anybody know if the rest of the atom processes (besides the 330) have good realtime performance with RTAI?
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[14:51:02] <mazafaka_> Are there any ArtCam analogs in making reliefs from pictures? Am I right to think image-to-gcode in EMC is probably the same, but the picture should be thoroughly edited?
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[15:21:29] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: I found a 120W DC/Air universal charger
[15:22:53] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: 80W http://www.papatek.com/universal-car-charge/934.html
[15:23:00] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: 120W http://www.papatek.com/universal-powersupply/universal-car-charger-buy-factory-shop/universal-car-charge/943.html
[15:24:38] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: Switchable voltage, 8 tips
[15:25:02] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: and vent holes too! lol
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[15:30:48] <MrUnshine> ough chinese metall, one side of the slide works just fine to scrape, the other one is hard as hard can be
[15:31:00] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: The given dimensions dont make sense (8x6x2") and both are the same, so I suspect that's the packaging
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[15:34:15] <syyl__> MrUnshine, thats the sand in the castings :D
[15:34:45] <MrUnshine> uhm ?
[15:35:05] <syyl__> chinese think, the sand needs to be in the iron...
[15:35:27] <MrUnshine> hah :P
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[15:46:42] <MrUnshine> using SPUN hm inserts for scraping, good bad? :P
[15:47:32] <syyl__> hmm
[15:47:38] <syyl__> tried that
[15:48:03] <syyl__> silver soldered carbide insert on a piece of strap iron
[15:48:20] <syyl__> but after sharpening and lapping
[15:48:37] <syyl__> the insert doesnt hold its edge that well as a real scaper blade wouöd
[15:48:40] <syyl__> would
[15:49:02] <syyl__> i think it depends on the type of carbide used
[15:49:51] <syyl__> maybe one for interrupted cut holds up better
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[15:53:04] <MrUnshine> feels like the ways of the mill is so small i would need a very small scraper also =)
[15:53:13] <MrUnshine> hard to get into everything with the one i have :/
[15:54:20] <archivist_emc> cast iron suffers from "chills" hard spots, poor casting
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[16:03:59] <syyl__> get a real carbide scraper blade and cut it in half lenghtways
[16:05:02] <MrUnshine> syyl__, well cant find any that doesnt cost everything i got and my left leg ... atleast not in sweden :P
[16:05:25] <syyl__> isnt sandvik a swedish company? :D
[16:06:02] <MrUnshine> i guess
[16:06:19] <syyl__> they make (or made) blades for hand scrapers
[16:06:33] <syyl__> but yes, they are not THAT cheap
[16:07:00] <syyl__> last one i bought from a large tool supply, cost ~25eur
[16:07:29] <MrUnshine> sounds like about what they cost then :/
[16:07:47] <MrUnshine> big enough number for a blade imo :P
[16:07:57] <syyl__> yeah
[16:08:11] <syyl__> but it survive you :D
[16:08:37] <MrUnshine> ~36 euro for a HM scraper
[16:08:52] <MrUnshine> survive me? :P
[16:09:23] <syyl__> yes
[16:09:27] <syyl__> they last a lifetime
[16:09:47] <MrUnshine> true ...
[16:10:09] <syyl__> just a little touch up with a diamond file from time to time
[16:10:52] <MrUnshine> that would be about 0.000227 euro/hour then for my lifetime
[16:11:06] <syyl__> not to bad :D
[16:11:49] <MrUnshine> if i only had a job i would buy so many tools i would drown in them :P
[16:12:06] <syyl__> hr
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[16:20:59] <MrUnshine> hmm interesting
[16:21:07] <MrUnshine> making a powerscraper from a tiger saw =)
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[16:24:37] <syyl__> hehe
[16:24:50] <syyl__> tried a biax power scraper from a friend
[16:25:06] <syyl__> nice piece of kit :D
[16:25:06] <MrUnshine> but i would like something in the size of a dremel =)
[16:26:43] <MrUnshine> but a tiger saw should be like the same thing
[16:26:59] <Tom_itx> nothing quite like elbow grease
[16:27:21] <MrUnshine> problem is that my elbow grease has ran out
[16:27:36] <MrUnshine> and i now got a finger that wont wake up due to some nerve not feeling to good :P
[16:28:00] <syyl__> try a deadblow hammer :)
[16:28:09] <syyl__> that will wake up the finger
[16:32:26] <MrUnshine> or maybe one of these power wood chissels would be usable for a scraper :P
[16:33:31] <MrUnshine> http://toolmonger.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/power%20chisel.jpg hellt hat even looks like a biax power scraper: P
[16:33:55] <syyl__> important is a adjustable stroke
[16:34:13] <syyl__> beside that, it looks realy almost like a biax :D
[16:35:00] <MrUnshine> hmm
[16:35:05] <MrUnshine> adjustable stroke
[16:35:42] <MrUnshine> sucks that it is the mill im scraping :P
[16:35:54] <MrUnshine> shouldnt be to hard to make one
[16:36:41] <syyl__> there was a guy at homeshopmachinists (?) that made one from a tiger saw
[16:36:50] <syyl__> with adjustable stroke, if i remember correct
[16:38:37] <MrUnshine> mm saw the thread
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[17:37:35] <skunkworks> cradek: are you around? Have some simulated tach questions.
[17:38:20] <skunkworks> I think the y axis tach - which is different than the rest (older) is a bit flakey on startup.
[17:38:36] <skunkworks> I want to try the simulated tach into the amps for grins.
[17:38:52] <skunkworks> wondering if you remember the order of operations you did.
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[17:40:57] <aggrav8d> hi, guys
[17:41:01] <aggrav8d> (and ladies)
[17:42:19] <aggrav8d> i've been building my own stewart platform and delta robot. I've worked out how to draw lines and arcs of up to 180 degrees. The next logical step for me is to write a program that generates g-code for my particular robot. I'm looking for information on how to calculate the paths used in pocketing operations. anyone?
[17:44:10] <awallin> the emc2 way would be to run normal g-code which describes the motion/positioning of the tool, and let kinematics handle how that should translate to joint/actuator movement
[17:44:47] <awallin> I've been working a bit on constructing voronoi diagrams. that should lead to fast and accurate 2D offsets eventually. its part of opencamlib
[17:44:57] * awallin goes out for a run now, bbl
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[18:53:37] <Kendall> anyone familiar with configuring the Mesa 5i20 card?
[18:54:46] <archivist_emc> more than one probably, ask the real question
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[18:57:12] <Kendall> working on setting up a 3 axis machine with one 5i20, one 7i37, and two 7i29 drivers; using Anders Wallin's pyVCP m5i20 HOSTMOT-4 test panel i can get digital states from the 7i37, but am unable to get encoder values from the 7i29s
[18:57:35] <Kendall> very new at this and looking for guidance on where i need to look
[18:59:24] <pcw_home> What config file are you using? The m5i20 stuff is fairly ancient so if you started with a up to date EMC/HAL file
[18:59:26] <pcw_home> it will use HostMot2.
[19:00:33] <pcw_home> and unfortunately the test panel will not work with HostMot2, you will need to get by with HALMeter/HALScope
[19:01:06] <awallin> my pyvcp test-panel was done for the old firmware/driver... but modifying it to use hostmot2 shouldn't be that hard
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[19:03:17] <tehnorm> http://pastebin.com/bHDfjdh4
[19:03:42] <Kendall> tehnorm posted the config file we're using
[19:05:36] <Kendall> i guess i'm unsure where we tell it which 5i20 driver to use?
[19:06:55] <awallin> hal_m5i20 is the old ("ancient") one
[19:07:23] <pcw_home> Yes, thats the old m5i20 driver/firmware so the pyvcp panel should work
[19:07:23] <awallin> here's the latest from my friend who makes moulds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJAhr1mVuec
[19:08:26] <pcw_home> Do you have both 7I29s on one cable?
[19:09:09] <tehnorm> yes - they are both on the same cable
[19:09:45] <pcw_home> I'm pretty sure the m5I20 HOSTMOT4 config has the motor interface on P2
[19:09:47] <pcw_home> Are the 7I29's jumpered for 0,1 and 2,3?
[19:10:37] <pcw_home> (I mean one set for 0,1 and the other set for 2,3)
[19:12:20] <tehnorm> double checking right now - does order of the board on the cable matter which is 0,1 or 2,3?
[19:14:21] <pcw_home> order is unimportant, jumpers are (if jumpered the same, the 7I29s encoder outputs will "fight")
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[19:16:32] <pcw_home> Yeah Hostmot4 has motors on 5I20 P2
[19:16:36] <GermainAdrian> whats the easiest to make a T bracket like this, without CNC/welding: http://rookery9.aviary.com.s3.amazonaws.com/8807000/8807209_a793_625x625.jpg
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[19:16:46] <tehnorm> yup - they where the same - switching one set now
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[19:21:34] <Kendall> we currently only have 1 encoder hooked up right now and no motor power going to the 7i29s
[19:21:58] <Kendall> still not getting anything on test-panel after switching the jumpers and resetting
[19:23:10] <andypugh> You are using the right firmware?
[19:23:51] <andypugh> (Sorry, just arrived so not sure what your problem is)
[19:25:14] <andypugh> if you look in dmesg you should see a pinout listing, you can make sure that matches the 7i29 pin-in.
[19:26:40] <tehnorm> andypugh: checking
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[19:27:46] <Kendall> andypugh: this was the question/problem: working on setting up a 3 axis machine with one 5i20, one 7i37, and two 7i29 drivers; using Anders Wallin's pyVCP m5i20 HOSTMOT-4 test panel i can get digital states from the 7i37, but am unable to get encoder values from the 7i29s
[19:29:41] <tehnorm> andypugh - pardon the ignorace - what should I be looking for in dmesg?
[19:30:10] <andypugh> sorry, on the phone. bear with me
[19:30:33] <awallin> Kendall: with the old m5i20 firmware the pinout is here http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.3/html/drivers_m5i20.html I have forgot how the particular BIT file that is used by hal_m5i20 is set... that needs to be correct too. Apparently hal_m5i20 was removed from emc 2.4?
[19:30:53] <tehnorm> np
[19:33:32] <andypugh> Sounds like the pyVCP panel is likely not to work too well with Hostmot2 driver.
[19:33:41] <Kendall> looks like we're on 2.4.6
[19:33:52] <andypugh> I assume you are using mesa_hostmot2?
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[19:34:18] <andypugh> Is EMC2 booting? Or are you working in halcmd?
[19:34:59] <Kendall> right now we've just been looking at the test-panel
[19:35:10] <Kendall> which sounds like is probably a dead end on 2.4
[19:35:13] <awallin> at least in the 2.4 documentation the old hal_m5i20 description is removed... might be better to work with hostmot2 and build a new test-panel...
[19:35:27] <pcw_home> Andy they are using the old m5I20
[19:35:38] <andypugh> tehnorm: if you type "dmesg" at a command prompt, the mesa_hostmot2 driver lists all the pins. If you are using the old hal_m5i20 driver then it might not.
[19:36:08] <skunkworks> I would seriously look at using the new driver
[19:36:10] <andypugh> Well, the simple solution is to not use the old hal_m5i20 driver :-)
[19:36:17] <pcw_home> Are the 7I29s jumpered for the right encoder type?
[19:36:47] <Kendall> sorry, dumb question: how do we tell which driver we are using?
[19:37:25] <pcw_home> You may have to trace back from encoder signals to the flat cable.
[19:37:27] <pcw_home> The HAL file determines which driver you are using
[19:37:28] <andypugh> pastebin your hal file.
[19:37:33] <awallin> Kendall: you are loading the old driver/firmware on the loadrt hal_m5i20 line in the HAL
[19:37:44] <tehnorm> http://pastebin.com/bHDfjdh4
[19:38:32] <awallin> Kendall: are you getting anything on the digital IO-pins? that would mean the driver/firmware does get loaded correctly...
[19:38:40] <tehnorm> are there some docs on installing the newer driver I can take a crack at?
[19:39:02] <awallin> this is the new one: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.4/html/drivers_hostmot2.html
[19:39:08] <tehnorm> t/y
[19:39:27] <Kendall> awallin: yes, the digital IO pins work fine
[19:40:03] <awallin> Kendall: ok good. then you should probably look for an electrical/wiring issue with the encoder. check with an oscilloscope or multimeter that the encoder works first.
[19:40:35] <pcw_home> OK so I would trace your encoder signals - encoder--> flat cable pin
[19:40:37] <pcw_home> the HOSTMOT4.PIN file has the flat cable pinouts
[19:42:35] <pcw_home> Dont know if thats in the included DOCs anymore but its here:
[19:42:37] <pcw_home> freeby.mesanet.com/HOSTMOT4.PIN
[19:43:06] <tehnorm> when hooked to the scope we get nice clean 5v pulses - think the enoders and cables are good - checking connectors now
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[19:44:10] <awallin> pcw_home: your PIN file should match the old docs: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.3/html/drivers_m5i20.html#r1_4
[19:44:21] <pcw_home> Are the 7I29 encoder inputs jumpered properly? (for TTL or differential to match your encoder)
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[19:47:55] <pcw_home> awallin: yes that matches the .PIN file (except the A/Bs are reversed,)
[19:53:01] <tehnorm> ok... new driver now the pins are off in the hal file but the pin list is in dmesg
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[19:53:28] <tehnorm> progress... I think?
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[19:54:37] <tehnorm> pcw_home : we think so on the encoder jumpers
[19:55:29] <awallin> you should be able to use the same xml-file for the panel, just the pin-names now all change to hm2_??? in the HAL-file...
[19:59:49] <tehnorm> ok - did the replace and now this error
[19:59:52] <tehnorm> cnc@cnc-compumill:~/Downloads/testpanel$ ./m5i20testpanel_startup HAL: ERROR: function 'hm2_5i20.0.digital-in-read' not found m5i20testpanel.hal:12: addf failed
[20:00:16] <pcw_home> You might want to trace the encoder signals on the flat cable (pins 1,3,5,7 are first 2 encoders)
[20:00:33] <tehnorm> er: http://pastebin.com/3uvfRryJ
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[20:00:55] <awallin> the functions are called just .read and .write
[20:01:01] <awallin> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.4/html/drivers_hostmot2.html
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[20:02:54] <tehnorm> ah - so the config we have is for a hostmot4 system - and now the function names differ for hostmot2
[20:03:53] <awallin> yes, the names might change a bit in other places too, but the genral idea of what's going on should be pretty much the same. except hm2 is modular, so you can mix/match encoders, pwm-generators and io
[20:04:35] <andypugh> Very usefully, unused module pins can be used for other things.
[20:05:03] <tehnorm> gotcha
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[20:05:28] <tehnorm> ok - going to see if I can find the right new pin/func names
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[20:10:55] <andypugh> tehnorm: open a new terminal window with EMC2 live and type halcmd show pin. Optionally pipe that output to a file.
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[20:39:02] <Kendall> are encoders that have A, B, and Z channels differential?
[20:39:23] <JT-Shop> they can be
[20:39:33] <pcw_home> can be...
[20:39:49] <JT-Shop> Hi Peter
[20:40:20] <Kendall> lol, i'll reprase :-) how can i tell what kind of encoders these motors have?
[20:40:36] <pcw_home> Hi JT-Shop
[20:40:48] <skunkworks> if you just have abz - they are ttl
[20:40:59] <pcw_home> Number of wires?
[20:41:12] <skunkworks> heh
[20:41:16] <skunkworks> or the number of wires
[20:41:17] <awallin> Kendall: check this pic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_signaling
[20:42:10] <Kendall> 10 wires: two +5v, two 0v, A, /A, B, /B, Z, /Z
[20:43:47] <pcw_home> OK differential
[20:50:08] <Kendall> ok so here's where we are: if we set the jumpers to differential and turn the motor, we can see "hm2_5i20.0.encoder.00.count" toggle 0,1 in halmeter
[20:50:24] <skunkworks> sounds like 1 phase isn't hooked up
[20:50:49] <skunkworks> do you maybe have a or b reversed with z?
[20:51:15] <skunkworks> (either a or b isn't hooked up)
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[20:57:50] <chris_> hi guys is this working?
[20:57:58] chris_ is now known as Guest47586
[20:58:54] <pcw_home> bbl
[20:59:32] <Guest47586> I am new to EMC2 and so excited by the possibilities this offers. I have been running LINUX for about 10 years in various modes but now with the work I'm trying to do in my shop this fits perfectly
[20:59:46] <Guest47586> is anyone available right now to help answer a few questions for me about my new CNC setup?
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[21:00:40] <micges_garage> Guest47586: ask
[21:01:25] <Guest47586> I have a Tree Journeyman 200R that had X & Y CNC controls. It's an old system but the Iron is good and it does have 2 servo motors in it
[21:02:04] <Guest47586> The servo motors are MT5130-047CF so I'm trying to determine if these motors will work directly with EMC or if I'd need to buy new drives
[21:03:17] <micges_garage> if they're driven by +-10V they can be used
[21:03:36] <JT-Shop> do your current drives take a velocity input?
[21:03:38] <Guest47586> ok that's perfect Micges, but how do I determine this?
[21:03:46] <micges_garage> and encoder without any protocol
[21:04:16] <Guest47586> JT- I have no idea... I can go down and take a few pics if you like but the basics are as follows. There are 4 wires entering the case where the servo motors are at
[21:04:20] <micges_garage> docs?
[21:04:20] <the_wench> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/
[21:04:31] <Guest47586> I have been reading TONS of docs
[21:04:38] <Guest47586> but nothing really covers this particular piece
[21:04:41] <micges_garage> try determine model and ask google
[21:04:56] <Guest47586> I did just post the model MT5130
[21:05:11] <Guest47586> I can't find much at all on google other than to verify they are indeed servo motors
[21:05:14] <JT-Shop> the drives control the servos and EMC controls the drives using encoder feedback from the motor usually
[21:05:40] <Guest47586> OK on my system there are 4 wires going to the servo motors each plus a ground I think...
[21:06:02] <Guest47586> and then there's a smaller item on the belt 1/2 way up the belt at the tension point. It's some sort of feedback device
[21:06:24] <Guest47586> I think that little feedback module also has 4 wires going to it but I can go open it up again and check for sure
[21:06:41] <micges_garage> take good picture of connectors
[21:06:57] <JT-Shop> just talking about servos and drives for a second... the drive makes the servo turn and gets feedback from the motor
[21:07:17] <JT-Shop> to increase or decrease the current to the motor
[21:08:04] <JT-Shop> the controls tell the drives to go at some velocity usually with a +_ 10v input to the drives
[21:08:23] <Guest47586> so the drive would be in the computer CASE portion of my system? or is the drive that little device 1/2 way up my belt with it's own set of wires?
[21:08:25] <JT-Shop> the encoders tell the control where it is
[21:08:37] <JT-Shop> it would be in one of the boxes
[21:08:47] <Guest47586> ok maybe the little thing 1/2 way up the belt is an encoder then
[21:08:59] <JT-Shop> the little device might be an encoder or a resolver
[21:09:05] <Guest47586> yup
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[21:09:23] <Guest47586> ok so the big question is how do I determine if my servos are +/- 10v?
[21:09:41] <JT-Shop> so you need to make a wiring diagram of all the basic control and drive circuits
[21:09:50] <JT-Shop> does it run now?
[21:09:53] <Guest47586> yup
[21:10:22] <JT-Shop> I'm guessing you have to find the drives first
[21:10:38] <Guest47586> and you think they'll be in the computer case?
[21:11:07] <JT-Shop> follow the wires
[21:11:58] <Guest47586> let me go get my book. I have a basic manual that came with my Tree and it speaks of the resolver boards for X & Y. They were on each their own cards
[21:12:09] <Guest47586> I had to remove wire #10 from them and watch for drift on the servos
[21:12:31] <Guest47586> to adjust the drift I had to turn 2 little POTS on another board each a TINY bit to get the servos to stop drifting
[21:12:39] <Guest47586> then shut down and reconnect wire #10
[21:12:49] <Guest47586> so I think the thing with the POTS was the resolver board
[21:13:01] <Guest47586> and I think the 2 separate boards were called the driver boards
[21:13:27] <Guest47586> I'll BRB going to go grab that book and I have some photos I can share as well.
[21:13:30] <JT-Shop> all together sounds like the drive
[21:13:32] <skunkworks> sounds like analog drives
[21:13:48] <Guest47586> can servo motors be analog?
[21:13:55] <Guest47586> cause the book does talk about pulses
[21:14:02] <JT-Shop> not motors, drives
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[21:14:39] <JT-Shop> you might have step and direction drives...
[21:14:40] <Guest47586> http://oupower.com/index.php?dir=_My_Projects/_Shop_Projects/Tree%20Journeyman%20200R%20Milling%20Machine
[21:14:46] <Guest47586> try that link.
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[21:15:12] <Guest47586> I have a bunch of pics of the computer case and even a pic of the drive (open end) at the tail end of my pics
[21:15:46] <Guest47586> I'll go grab my book quick and take a pic of the little (encoder??) thing 1/2 way up the belt
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[21:29:07] <Guest47586> ok guys I'm back
[21:29:37] <Guest47586> looks like my book is speaking of Y & X having an Aux, Std, Tach & Ground connection
[21:30:02] <Guest47586> signal input voltage +/- 10V Typical max is +/- 50v
[21:30:14] <Guest47586> impedance 20K Min
[21:31:37] <tehnorm> can anyone confirm pin 1 on a mesa 7i29 encoder connector
[21:32:00] <tehnorm> no markings on the board and the docs seem sparse on that
[21:33:30] <Guest47586> West Amp Drives...
[21:33:31] <skunkworks> Guest47586: mesa or pico software are good options to run those drives
[21:33:39] <skunkworks> *hardware
[21:34:36] <JT-Shop> Guest47586: if you change your name we can remember you next time you visit
[21:35:06] <JT-Shop> tehnorm: the manual should show the pinout, I don't have a 7i29 so I can't look
[21:35:50] <Guest47586> how do I change my name?
[21:36:09] <Guest47586> disconnect and reconnect?
[21:36:11] <JT-Shop> hmmm, it is easy with chatzilla
[21:36:14] <Guest47586> #name
[21:36:26] <JT-Shop> I forget on the build in
[21:36:28] <Jymmm> Guest47586: /nick new_nic
[21:36:37] Guest47586 is now known as hatch789
[21:36:39] <hatch789> there we go
[21:36:41] <skunkworks> /nick something
[21:36:42] <hatch789> I'm hatch789
[21:36:45] <skunkworks> ah
[21:36:52] <hatch789> I am on CNC zone as well
[21:36:53] <skunkworks> hatch789: I saw your post on cnczone
[21:36:55] <skunkworks> heh
[21:36:56] <JT-Shop> ok, we can remember that till we sleep
[21:37:01] <hatch789> lol
[21:37:06] <hatch789> or until you drink a lot of beer
[21:37:18] <JT-Shop> drinking a Jymmm beer right now
[21:37:27] <hatch789> ok so you said mesa or pico software are good options to run these drives?
[21:37:34] <skunkworks> hardware
[21:37:42] <tehnorm> JT-Shop - sadly it doesn't....
[21:37:42] <JT-Shop> does the power wires from the servos go to the driver boards in the power cabinet?
[21:37:54] <skunkworks> I am running mesa hardware with amc analog amps and it is running great
[21:38:01] <hatch789> I can go check that
[21:38:11] <hatch789> I assume the power wires are the larger wires BRB
[21:38:21] <hatch789> did you see the pics I posted online?
[21:38:25] <hatch789> http://oupower.com/index.php?dir=_My_Projects/_Shop_Projects/Tree%20Journeyman%20200R%20Milling%20Machine
[21:38:33] <JT-Shop> yea, my Hardinge I used a 5i20 with a 7i33 and 7i37's
[21:38:53] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: Oh, how you like it?
[21:39:02] <JT-Shop> it is good Jymmm
[21:39:11] <JT-Shop> found it at wally world
[21:39:24] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: Ah, how much was a 6pack?
[21:39:42] <JT-Shop> I've slept since then LOL
[21:39:53] <Jymmm> lol
[21:40:06] <JT-Shop> what is a 7i29?
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[21:41:44] <JT-Shop> never mind I found it
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[21:45:50] <JT-Shop> tehnorm: nothing on the board indicates pin 1?
[21:46:31] <tehnorm> no... its really weird that way
[21:46:48] <tehnorm> also http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CB4QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mesanet.com%2Fpdf%2Fmotion%2F7i29man.pdf&rct=j&q=mesa%207i29&ei=PZAPTp2jO8SCgAeRy5TjDQ&usg=AFQjCNHydebJ37tFWg_q1RxaSJbY6jb_lg&sig2=DiamXGgNmqH1qZ2Nd3NHzQ&cad=rja
[21:47:35] <JT-Shop> yea, I'm looking at the manual
[21:47:53] <JT-Shop> maybe when pcw pops back in he can tell you
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[21:48:38] <skunkworks> wow - the k&t make a hell of a bang when the power goes out.
[21:48:52] <JT-Shop> what causes that?
[21:49:10] <skunkworks> not clue - dad said the power flickerd this morning als
[21:49:12] <skunkworks> aslo
[21:49:15] <skunkworks> also
[21:49:17] <skunkworks> heh
[21:49:28] <skunkworks> seems to come back up
[21:49:32] <skunkworks> cutting again
[21:49:35] <skunkworks> :)
[21:49:39] <JT-Shop> cool
[21:49:46] <skunkworks> homing to index is awesome.
[21:49:57] <JT-Shop> I love it on my lathe and mill
[21:50:18] <skunkworks> didn't even break a cutter
[21:50:42] <JT-Shop> your not supposed to break them
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[22:02:08] <tehnorm> brb
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[22:03:21] <skunkworks> logger[psha]:
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[22:17:43] <tehnorm> pcw_home: have your ears on?
[22:19:27] <skunkworks> did you get the encoder straitened out?
[22:19:46] <tehnorm> any good tips for troubleshooting bad drivers? getting some really weird scope images when encoders are hooked to mesa 7i29's
[22:20:02] <tehnorm> no luck yet
[22:20:18] <tehnorm> tho on the bench and scope the encoders seem fine
[22:21:07] <tehnorm> uploading a screenshot now
[22:23:16] <hatch789> ok I'm back
[22:23:19] <hatch789> I have some screenshots
[22:24:01] <hatch789> I mean pictures LOL
[22:25:36] <Kendall> this is what we get from the B channel of the encoder when it's hooked up to the mesa board: http://i.imgur.com/Zs4Wi.jpg
[22:25:40] <Kendall> on the bench it is fine
[22:26:00] <Kendall> nasty signal...'
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[22:26:45] <Tom_itx> is it open collector?
[22:26:50] <Tom_itx> where it would need a pullup
[22:27:38] <Tom_itx> or from the looks of the signal, a pulldown possibly
[22:28:22] <Tom_itx> or the pin isn't set for input?
[22:28:37] <hatch789> Looks like the 2 boards in my system that I removed wire #10 from were Resolver Filter boards
[22:30:15] <hatch789> The drives power comes from the OTHER side (power side) and not from the computer side. They are the 2 smaller transformers at the bottom of this pic labeled x & y
[22:30:18] <hatch789> http://oupower.com/_My_Projects/_Shop_Projects/Tree%20Journeyman%20200R%20Milling%20Machine/2011_0629_222053.jpg
[22:30:36] <Tom_itx> ok if there's a common ground
[22:30:55] <hatch789> The other board on the computer side appears to be a resolver driver board
[22:31:12] <hatch789> that's the one with the POTS that I tuned to remove the drift on the axis
[22:32:21] <hatch789> The little upper unit above the servo drive is a small thing that looks like a DC motor (I'm sure it's not though) and it has 6 wires coming out of it in 3 pairs (each pair red/black)
[22:33:36] <hatch789> so are my servo drives AC powered? -Is that common or usable in this case?
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[22:35:17] <JT-Shop> hatch789: the 6 wires go back to the resolver board?
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[22:38:00] <hatch789> I'll go look JT
[22:38:07] <hatch789> Is it normal for these drives to be AC powered?
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[22:44:14] <JT-Shop> hmmm, I wonder what normal is???
[22:45:57] <JT-Shop> crap, I have 45 tires to keep aired up... who will do that when I'm old and creepy?
[22:47:21] <andypugh> hatch789: It would be very unusual to adjust pots to zero a resolver. Possibly a tachometer though.
[22:47:48] <andypugh> And yes, it is reasonably common to have a power stage in the drive.
[22:48:40] <andypugh> It's a lot like a VFD, except it controls the phase on the basis of the feedback, rather than just blindly outputting a frequency.
[22:51:05] <tehnorm> anyone familiar with mesa 7i29 drivers?
[22:51:28] <JT-Shop> tehnorm: just ask the question
[22:51:55] <andypugh> tehnorm: PCW should be :-)
[22:52:04] <JT-Shop> yea
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[22:52:08] <JT-Shop> Hi Andy
[22:52:11] <tehnorm> think we might have blown a set
[22:52:30] <tehnorm> trying to figure that out for sure
[22:53:00] <tehnorm> so looking for some ways to test them
[22:53:04] <JT-Shop> tehnorm: when pcw_home drops by he is the techno mesa guy
[22:53:15] <andypugh> hatch789: Forget that bit about phase. I think you have brushed motors, rather than brushless. I am puzzled when you say that they have 4 wires to the motors though.
[22:53:19] <tehnorm> gotcha
[22:53:41] <andypugh> tehnorm: It's more likely you haven't enabled the enables..
[22:53:53] <JT-Shop> andypugh: looks like 4 brushes on the last photo I think
[22:53:56] <tehnorm> right now we are getting 2.5v on a 5v pin on the encoder power pins
[22:54:10] <tehnorm> andypugh - how do you do that?
[22:55:08] <andypugh> JT-Shop: Ah, yes, that will do it.
[22:55:24] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, pause/resume doesn't toggle any physical pins does it?
[22:55:36] <andypugh> tehnorm: Ah, no, that sounds bad. Is that with the encoder connected?
[22:56:08] <JT-Shop> Tom_itx: on my Hardinge I have a physical button to toggle pause/resume
[22:56:19] <JT-Shop> not sure what you mean...
[22:56:23] <tehnorm> hard to measure with it connected but yes when not connected
[22:57:49] <tehnorm> also channel a is perfect, b is nothing and z is .5v pulse but very fuzzy
[22:57:52] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, yes but i was considering adding an led indicator for status
[22:58:40] <Tom_itx> output, not input
[22:58:53] <JT-Shop> you can get that from the halui pin is running or is on or what ever it is called
[22:59:09] <andypugh> tehnorm: Is that looking on a physical scope? You can also look at the encoder lines in Halscope. I think that the functional pins also have a GPIO input aspect too.
[22:59:22] <Tom_itx> right, but it's not mapped to a pin by default..
[22:59:37] <JT-Shop> no, that would be up to you
[22:59:54] <tehnorm> andypugh: yes, physical scope
[23:00:14] <andypugh> It would be interesting to see what comes in to Halscope.
[23:00:39] * JT-Shop receives orders for the boss to commence the cooking of the yard bird wings and sweet corn
[23:00:49] <JT-Shop> for/from
[23:00:57] <andypugh> What do you get if you swap A for B? Perhaps it is a problem with the encoder?
[23:01:09] <hatch789> how do you wisper to someone?
[23:01:14] <JT-Shop> see you guys later
[23:01:16] <Tom_itx> msg
[23:01:28] <andypugh> I have tried to break Mesa cards and failed so far :-)
[23:01:51] <tehnorm> andypugh: what pin should i look at in halscope?
[23:01:59] <andypugh> hatch789: You can probably right-click their name.
[23:02:45] <andypugh> tehnorm: You have the pinout? look which GPIO pin number the encoder lines have.
[23:03:43] <tehnorm> andypugh: the reason we are questioning the board is because we're running two 7i29s off of one 50 pin cable but the original cable was manufactured wrong
[23:04:05] <tehnorm> andypugh: checking pinout now
[23:05:34] <tehnorm> andypugh: think this is the pin i want to look at > [ 2473.128506] hm2/hm2_5i20.0: IO Pin 000 (P2-01): Encoder #1, pin B (Input)
[23:05:49] <tehnorm> but how do i select that in halscope?
[23:06:12] <andypugh> Yes, have a look for hm2_5i20.0.gpio-000-in
[23:07:47] <tehnorm> ok found that
[23:08:33] <tehnorm> now have to figure out how to use Halscope..
[23:08:51] <tehnorm> you wouldn't happen to have a screenshot of what we *should* see in halscope would you?
[23:10:19] <andypugh> It should look the same as the physical scope, but all squared-up and logical.
[23:10:37] <andypugh> You will see if the fuzz in the B channel os actually getting through.
[23:10:58] <andypugh> (you can also scope the encoder counts value at the same time)
[23:14:38] <andypugh> There is something a little wrong when I start cooking my dinner _after_ JT
[23:26:40] <pcw_home> Is that scope picture the external signal or the signal on the flat cable
[23:30:41] <pcw_home> ?
[23:30:53] <tehnorm> pcw_home: the scope picture was probing the encoder connector (P1) directly while the encoder was hooked up to the 7i29 BUT powered externally (not by the 7i29)
[23:31:54] <tehnorm> if we probe there while powered by the 7i29, chA looks great, chB stays high, chZ is weird..
[23:32:48] <tehnorm> i did finally manage to get a good signal in Halscope on hm2_5i20.0.gpio.002.in
[23:33:17] <tehnorm> does that coorespond to this: hm2/hm2_5i20.0: IO Pin 002 (P2-05): Encoder #0, pin B (Input)
[23:33:30] <pcw_home> OK so I would say bad or miswired encoder (the 7I29 terminates the differntial pair with 120 Ohm so unconnected/open collector/ weak drivers will show up as weak signals)
[23:34:24] <tehnorm> question about the encoder connectors on the 7i29: when we check the output votages, we get...
[23:35:24] <tehnorm> pin 1 to 5 = ~2.5v; 6-10 = ~2.5v; 6-5 = 5v; 1-10 = ~0v
[23:36:13] <tehnorm> is that normal?
[23:38:05] <pcw_home> Umm I think you have the pin #s wrong, 1 and 6 are 5V
[23:39:05] <tehnorm> sorry i probably explained it weird
[23:39:14] <tehnorm> yes 1 and 6 are 5v
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[23:39:32] <tehnorm> and 5 and 10 are 0v, correct?
[23:39:48] <pcw_home> Yep
[23:40:17] <tehnorm> so if i put a multimeter with + on pin 1 and - on pin 5, i only read ~2.5v
[23:41:32] <andypugh> pcw_home: Is anyone working on the 7i49 driver?
[23:41:42] <pcw_home> How long is the flat cable from the 5I20, is th e5I20 jumpered for 5V on the flat cable (thats the default)
[23:42:27] <pcw_home> Andy I sent a card to Kim Kirwan but I dont think he's done anything yet
[23:43:21] <tehnorm> its long, like 11 ft. but we are giving it external power via the aux connector
[23:43:44] <tehnorm> and yes to 5v jumpered
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[23:44:36] <pcw_home> The encoder power is directly connected from the main 7I29 5V so I would check your 5V supply
[23:45:21] <pcw_home> Best if this comes from the PC (rev H and > 5I20s have a PTC protected 5V terminal block for this power)
[23:45:27] <andypugh> pcw_home: hatch789 looks like he has a requirement, and the skills.
[23:46:04] <tehnorm> it is coming from the pc (from the 5i20) and measure at 4.93v at the aux connector
[23:48:00] <pcw_home> Well Its hard to see how it could be 2.5V at the encoder connector the AUX 5V should connect directly to the encoder V+
[23:48:10] <tehnorm> would a flat cable with a backwards connector damage the 7i29/cause this?
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[23:49:05] <tehnorm> its hooked up correctly now but the original cable we were sent had one of the connectors bacwards
[23:49:20] <tehnorm> backwards*
[23:49:39] <andypugh> You have checked the flat cable for stray strands, and out-of-pitch problems? (I managed to make a cable that shorted every pin of a 7i43 to the adjacent GND. It survived)
[23:50:19] <pcw_home> Possibly if a 5V supply without current limit were connected to the AUX connector
[23:52:14] <tehnorm> the only thing thats been connected to the aux connector has come from the 5i20
[23:53:55] <pcw_home> Can you disconnect everything an Ohm out the connections from the AUX power connector to the encoder connector?
[23:54:05] <pcw_home> and Ohm
[23:54:40] <tehnorm> so like aux v+ to encoder pin 1?
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[23:55:30] <pcw_home> check all (just so we know we are counting pins the same)
[23:56:08] <pcw_home> should be ~0 Ohms to 2 pins
[23:56:41] <andypugh> pcw_home: Could a 7i49 firmware fit on a 200k 7i43?
[23:56:54] <pcw_home> I doubt it
[23:58:01] <tehnorm> pcw_home: sorry, could you clarify that last bit?
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[23:58:35] <pcw_home> wont fit in 200K 5I20 and 5I20s 200K Spartan2 has more logic than a 200K Spartan3
[23:58:36] <pcw_home>
[23:59:48] <pcw_home> tehnorm just asking for a continuity test from AUXV+ to anywhere on the encoder connector