#emc | Logs for 2011-06-18

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[00:28:48] <elmo40> http://www.canadianmanufacturing.com/design-engineering/news/super-strong-steel-in-10-seconds-34693?print
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[00:57:24] <Jymmm> If I need to countersink holes in acrylic cleanly, what's the best tooling to do so?
[00:59:02] <Jymmm> This type of screw head.. http://www.boltdepot.com/Images/charts/head-styles/flat.gif
[01:00:48] <Tom_itx> i'd use a countersink
[01:00:50] <Tom_itx> single cutter
[01:00:56] <Tom_itx> i can show you a pic of one if you need
[01:01:22] <Jymmm> sure
[01:01:50] <Tom_itx> gimme a few min and i'll get you one
[01:02:00] <Jymmm> no rush
[01:07:38] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/temp/cnc/countersink1.jpg
[01:07:48] <Tom_itx> that one's carbide
[01:08:18] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/temp/cnc/countersink2.jpg
[01:08:22] <Tom_itx> crappy focus
[01:08:42] <Jymmm> I have something like that (for hand use), and it makes, like, notches every 45 degrees or so
[01:09:09] <Tom_itx> single blade?
[01:09:09] <Jymmm> when I todd it in the drillpress that is
[01:09:12] <Jymmm> toss
[01:09:32] <Jymmm> No, four sides iirc
[01:09:41] <Tom_itx> this is a single flute cutter
[01:09:55] <Tom_itx> works better than multi flute. i have those too
[01:10:06] <Jymmm> Better, or GREAT ?
[01:10:09] <Tom_itx> you still need to hold the workpiece
[01:10:20] <Tom_itx> great if i had to say
[01:10:32] <Jymmm> No, that's fine as I'd cnc it on the router
[01:10:50] <Jymmm> brb
[01:10:58] <Tom_itx> i would recomend a pilot hole then this then the final size hole
[01:11:40] <Tom_itx> probably overkill
[01:21:37] <Jymmm> back
[01:22:47] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: I'll last cut the acrylic; it's slots and holes as well, I just need to countersink a few of the screw holes so I can mount some 1/2" aluminum angle
[01:23:03] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: I'll laser cut the acrylic; it's slots and holes as well, I just need to countersink a few of the screw holes so I can mount some 1/2" aluminum angle
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[01:23:35] <Tom_itx> those work better because the backside is smooth
[01:23:42] <Tom_itx> it follows the hole better
[01:24:08] <Jymmm> Ok, so single flute is the key here
[01:24:19] <Tom_itx> we used single point halfround drills on brass for similar reasons
[01:24:30] <Jymmm> What about angle?
[01:24:32] <Tom_itx> yep
[01:24:38] <Tom_itx> find the screw head angle
[01:24:42] <Tom_itx> and match it
[01:24:52] <Jymmm> What's the most common angle?
[01:24:58] <Tom_itx> i forget off hand what it is
[01:25:10] <Tom_itx> i could look in the machinist book
[01:25:21] <Jymmm> I know for sure that the ones I have are NOT it =)
[01:25:23] <Tom_itx> wood or machine screw?
[01:25:28] <Jymmm> Nah, do't bother wth that
[01:25:31] <Tom_itx> no they're not
[01:25:31] <Jymmm> machien
[01:25:40] <Tom_itx> the angle is different
[01:25:49] <ds3> p
[01:25:59] <Jymmm> k
[01:26:50] <tom3p> Jymmm, for soft materials, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CrossHoleDeburrer.jpg
[01:27:42] <Jymmm> I'm probably looking at 8-32
[01:28:01] <Jymmm> maybe a tad bigger
[01:28:18] <Tom_itx> 80 to 82 deg
[01:28:23] <Jymmm> k
[01:28:26] <Tom_itx> so it appears
[01:28:40] <Tom_itx> wait
[01:28:57] * Jymmm waits
[01:28:58] <Tom_itx> some are 99-101 deg
[01:29:02] <Jymmm> lol
[01:29:07] <Tom_itx> you need to check the screw
[01:29:11] <Jymmm> Ok, I'll order both at the same time =)
[01:29:24] <Tom_itx> american national standard are 99-101
[01:30:12] <Tom_itx> they show both
[01:30:21] <Jymmm> figures
[01:31:25] <Jymmm> NOW I wish I didn't sell my tapping head, lol
[01:31:28] <Tom_itx> also 90-92
[01:31:34] <tom3p> your choice of angles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Countersunk_holes.svg
[01:32:11] <Tom_itx> :)
[01:32:24] <Tom_itx> you better measure your screw heads
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[01:32:40] <Tom_itx> or find out what they are
[01:33:14] <Jymmm> I'll order the screws and countersink at the same time
[01:33:57] <Jymmm> non-reversing tapping head?! WTH
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[01:34:18] <Tom_itx> 2x speed out
[01:34:47] <Jymmm> http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/TAPMATIC-Tapping-Head-2ZCG3?cm_mmc=GoogleBase-_-Machining-_-Machine%20Tool%20Accessories-_-2ZCG3&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=2ZCG3
[01:35:08] <tom3p> 1/4 shank 1/16dia to 15/64 dia http://www.icscuttingtools.com/catalog/page_184.pdf 60/82/90 deg 13$@
[01:37:50] <Jymmm> I dont see mention of 15/64 in that pdf
[01:38:12] <Jymmm> oh the top secirio
[01:38:15] <Jymmm> section
[01:39:07] <Tom_itx> different style cutter
[01:39:11] <tom3p> those are nice "0 fluke" csinks
[01:39:25] <Tom_itx> probably works the same
[01:39:33] <Jymmm> Are they all blunt tips like that?
[01:39:51] <tom3p> yep but you dont use the tip
[01:39:56] <Jymmm> sure
[01:39:57] <Tom_itx> the one i have is cut past center like the bottom pic
[01:39:59] <tom3p> th ehole is the cutter
[01:40:06] <Tom_itx> it helps center it
[01:40:14] <Tom_itx> and keep it there
[01:40:36] <Tom_itx> just so the hole is bigger than the tip
[01:40:41] <tom3p> if you use a bit and brace, the diameter near the hole ctrs it
[01:40:43] <Tom_itx> or it will just burnish it
[01:41:04] <Jymmm> Cool.
[01:41:17] <tom3p> yep us e the right size for any style
[01:41:32] <Tom_itx> read the bottom description
[01:41:49] <Jymmm> Not too expensive either, the shipping will probably be more than the tool
[01:42:18] <Tom_itx> get a few sizes
[01:42:26] <Tom_itx> you will probably use them eventually
[01:42:43] <Tom_itx> also, wood screws have a different head angle i think
[01:42:54] <Jymmm> I dont do anything about 1/4" usually
[01:43:05] <Jymmm> s/about/above/
[01:43:27] <Jymmm> 15/64 == 0.2344 so that should be good
[01:43:57] <Tom_itx> mine's 1/4
[01:44:14] <Tom_itx> shank and 3/8 countersink
[01:44:33] <tom3p> buy a used cutter grinder, a little thomas deckel s likely <100$ at auction and you can make all kidza single lip cutters for csins and engraving etc
[01:44:47] <tom3p> use dowel pins or cutter blanks
[01:47:28] <tom3p> http://tinyurl.com/69r8mvn also sharpen teeny drills
[01:48:02] <tom3p> maybe the kid was michael deckel, i ferget, peter deckels son whatever
[01:49:32] <Jymmm> tom3p: ty
[01:50:32] <tom3p> diy http://modelenginenews.org/meng/quorn/quorn.html
[01:50:39] <tom3p> np
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[02:26:08] <Jymmm> tom3p: LEts get to me having a mill before getting to sharpeners =)
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[04:37:55] <alex4nder> woot, my taig showed up.
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[09:24:29] <Loetmichel> good morning!
[09:26:45] <awallin> gday
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[12:14:46] <Loetmichel> re vom Einkaufen
[12:15:06] <Loetmichel> s/einkaufen/shopping
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[14:00:57] <cncbasher> hi all , anyone had problems installing from live cd ? , getting package errors in update manager
[14:02:56] <awallin_> don't upgrade the kernel...
[14:04:16] <cncbasher> nothing to do with the kernal , cant find package etc from some servers
[14:04:25] <cncbasher> including emc
[14:04:36] <cncbasher> yet the other machine is fine
[14:05:02] <cncbasher> even compaired the apt files and their identical
[14:05:07] <archivist_emc> check repositories are same/correct
[14:05:32] <cncbasher> yes compaired them their the same
[14:05:59] <cncbasher> one is translation-en_GB
[14:06:10] <cncbasher> theirs a host more too
[14:06:52] <cncbasher> both pc's are identical and both installed from the same cd , only different times
[14:07:19] <cncbasher> about 3 months apart , it's as if it cant find the dns
[14:07:39] <cncbasher> for some repositorys
[14:08:04] <archivist_emc> if you upgrade ubuntu version iirc that changes the repos
[14:08:09] <cncbasher> iv'e even try'd a fresh download of the live cd
[14:09:05] <cncbasher> this happens from a total fresh live cd download
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[14:54:05] <Valen> apt-get update
[14:54:28] <Tom_itx> on a new install?
[14:54:46] <Valen> i spose thats the question
[14:54:55] <Valen> why is it looking at apt during an install?
[14:55:07] <Valen> i'd be thinking dud cd perhaps
[14:55:16] <Tom_itx> he's used it
[14:58:25] <Valen> cd + drive don't like each other
[14:59:17] <Jymmm> ?
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[15:20:59] <rayh> I'm looking at the vismach example of Chris' mill and wonder if there is a sample ngc file that will run with it.
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[16:29:37] <skunkworks___> This is a interesting idea - 2 step touch off.
[16:29:38] <skunkworks___> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERn-QZEm_xM
[16:30:12] <skunkworks___> that must be the xml based interface
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[16:39:30] <cncbasher> now to find some bed matteress springs !
[16:40:10] <cncbasher> yes it does look like the xml interface , looks interesting
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[16:41:06] <aggrav8d> hi! is kimk around?
[16:41:15] <archivist_emc> no resilience on the measuring side by the look of it
[16:42:03] <aggrav8d> http://imgur.com/ytuUt The pink line is the line EMC thinks the machine is moving. The while line is where I told it to go. Why is EMC doing this?
[16:42:19] <aggrav8d> (EMC is not wrong in thinking this is where the machine is moving.)
[16:45:15] <skunkworks___> I wonder if that should be put in the repository. seems to be working.
[16:47:06] <skunkworks___> aggrav8d: if you need it to stop exactly at the corners you need g61
[16:47:31] <skunkworks___> or look up g64px.xxxx (where x.xxx is how close the machine follows the path)
[16:47:33] <archivist_emc> aggrav8d, you need the exact path mode, its cutting corners for speed
[16:49:05] <Tom_itx> is the xml interface a replacement or addition to axis?
[16:49:56] <skunkworks___> it is just another gui
[16:50:17] <KimK> aggrav8d: Hi. I am now, for just a moment. I have to run an errand.
[16:50:18] <Tom_itx> where is the contact made on the tool for those touch probes?
[16:50:22] <Tom_itx> is it just GND?
[16:51:13] <skunkworks___> that would be my guess..
[16:51:19] <aggrav8d> kimk - so any guess?
[16:51:25] <aggrav8d> i finally got a picture of the variation.
[16:51:34] <Tom_itx> i considered getting one of those 2" led probes and modding it
[16:51:35] <cncbasher> the contact is to a spare pin , and then back to ground via machine
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[16:54:01] <aggrav8d> anyone else have some idea why my machine is being stupid?
[16:55:24] <skunkworks___> aggrav8d: it is not being stupid. with your accelleration - it is cutting the corners short to keep the speed up - as I said above - use exact stop if you want it to get to the corners... G61 or look at G64Px.xxx
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[16:59:02] <KimK> aggrav8d: skunkworks is right, this is "normal", or at least one of several possible normals you have to choose from. But you can select how it handles corners, etc., by selecting G61, G61.1, G64, G64 Pnnn Qnnn, etc. Time to look at the Gcode section of the User Manual.
[17:01:30] <cncbasher> aggrav8d : emc shows the actual toolpath , as you can't cut square corners , this takes into account tool used and any cutter compensations
[17:01:34] <skunkworks___> yay - cat5 to the shop! (was coax 10base2)
[17:05:09] <KimK> skunkworks___: Congrats!
[17:05:36] <archivist_emc> cat5e I hope
[17:06:02] <Tom_itx> cat5
[17:06:07] <Tom_itx> err cat6
[17:06:39] <archivist_emc> thats a bit fast for cnc :)
[17:07:44] <aggrav8d> can i activate g61 once at the start of the code, or does it have to be repeated often?
[17:08:32] <aggrav8d> once.
[17:08:41] <KimK> cncbasher: You are correct in that you cannot cut square corners with a spinning cutter. But you should be able to get the tool path centerline to go into a square corner, and I think that is what aggrav8d is asking about.
[17:09:54] <KimK> aggrav8d: Once at the beginning will do it, the G61-G61.1-G64-G64PnnnQnnn codes are modal.
[17:10:39] <Tom_itx> even if you switch G90/G91?
[17:10:53] <KimK> I've got to run an errand, back in a while.
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[17:16:44] <cncbasher> aggrav8d : i usualy rough out without using G61 and then use it on the final edge finishing cut only , helps keep the speed up
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[17:23:39] <skunkworks___> it is actually cat5e shielded
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[18:38:10] * KimK is back from errand
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[19:12:19] <KimK> skunkworks___: Wow, cat5e shielded, must have been pricey. Did you have to buy 500 ft? Do you have any left to sell? Is there a drain wire or how do they handle that? Must be for terminations other than an RJ-45, no "ninth" pin there.
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[19:13:44] <KimK> Tom_itx: Yes, I think so. Have you found otherwise?
[19:14:03] <KimK> aggrav8d: So, found out anything new?
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[19:20:53] <awallin> anyone tried the ekopath compiler yet? hope they do a package for ubuntu soon so I can try it without too much hassle... http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=pathscale_ekopath4_open&num=1
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[19:30:45] <psha> awallin: i've tried to compile it but failed :)
[19:31:03] <awallin> psha: build the compiler from src ?
[19:31:07] <psha> yes
[19:31:16] <psha> it's living on github
[19:31:31] <psha> https://github.com/path64
[19:31:34] <awallin> I guess I will wait a few weeks for packages to appear...
[19:32:21] <psha> билдицо только gcc-4.2
[19:32:23] <psha> ым
[19:32:25] <psha> oops
[19:32:26] <psha> sorry :)
[19:32:32] <psha> https://github.com/path64/compiler/issues/6#issuecomment-1373300
[19:32:35] <awallin> njet paparuski
[19:33:03] <psha> On my Debian GNU/Linux "Squeeze" amd65 machine, the build fails with
[19:33:04] <psha> wow
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[19:33:07] <psha> amd65 machine :)
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[19:36:17] <awallin> hows about this: http://clang.llvm.org/comparison.html#gcc
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[21:25:33] <psha> awallin: i'm using clang from time to time but only for tests - validate that my code is not very gcc-specific
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[21:26:10] <psha> however it's optimizations are not that great as icc and probably pathscale one
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[21:47:06] <nicko> hello all
[21:51:42] <KimK> Hey nicko. Pretty quiet here, everybody's out doing outdoor stuff, probably. Hang around awhile and see what happens.
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[21:53:54] <nicko> gidday - ha ha, its raining here so I'm in doing indoors stuff
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[22:21:02] <nicko> can anyone help with a Mesa Query ?
[22:22:26] <KimK> Maybe I can nicko, what do you need?
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[22:24:15] <nicko> I have the MEsa 5i22
[22:24:26] <nicko> and the Analog interface 7i33 ...
[22:24:45] <nicko> I have a drive here that either takes step/dir or analog input
[22:25:28] <nicko> with the 5i22 and 7i33 combo I seem to only be able to choose analog (via the 4 channels of the 7i33) or PWM via the standard 5i22 output
[22:26:38] <nicko> due to the limitations of my set up I either need 5 analog servo outputs or I need the 5i22 to outout step/dir (and not PWM)
[22:27:09] <nicko> I;m only using the pncconf interface at the moment
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[22:29:06] <skunkworks___> nicko: mesa makes a 6 axis analog interface. (I am actually using both for my setup) 7i43 iirc
[22:29:25] <nicko> well, I wish I had got it
[22:29:29] <skunkworks___> uses up only 1 50 pin connector like the 7i33
[22:29:32] <skunkworks___> heh
[22:31:14] <skunkworks___> otherwise - I think you can tell the hostmot2 hal componant how many pwm / step gens you have.. You may have to play with it becaus I have not done it much show I don't know the magic incantation
[22:31:16] <skunkworks___> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.4/html/man/man9/hostmot2.9.html
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[22:31:44] <skunkworks___> loadrt hm2_pci config="firmware=hm2/5i20/SVST8_4.BIT num_encoders=3 num_pwmgens=3 num_stepgens=0,firmware=hm2/5i23/SVST8_4.BIT num_encoders=0 num_pwmgens=0 num_stepgens=2"
[22:31:53] <skunkworks___> ^ from the manual
[22:31:58] <nicko> I'm pretty much a beginner - hence using pncconf
[22:32:07] <nicko> and then trying to reverse engineer its output
[22:32:44] <nicko> it looks likes I need to write my own .hal file huh ... oh dear
[22:33:14] <skunkworks___> I have not used the pncconf gui. But hal isn't that bad.. just start with one of the sample configs. don't be scared. :)
[22:33:48] <skunkworks___> nicko: what kind of machine are you working on?
[22:34:12] <nicko> homebuild mill - small VMC style
[22:34:21] <skunkworks___> nicwe
[22:34:22] <skunkworks___> nice
[22:34:26] <nicko> XYZA + servo spindle
[22:35:51] <nicko> first goal was to get the spindle going - even just as a step/dir with no feedback ('stepper' style) - which I did, but Axis gave me no idea of what RPM it was asking it to go
[22:36:15] <nicko> so I couldn't confirm I had the scaling and everything right in the config and drive
[22:38:07] <nicko> I tried to add the PyVCP spindle speed panel but the .hal file wouldn't load in EMC - some line needed two arguments but only had one - suspect it was looking for a servo spindle setup
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[22:40:23] <nicko> skunkworks>> that config line you pasted kind of outlines my issue right there
[22:40:43] <skunkworks___> nicko: you kinda make emc what you want it to be. http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/testing/Screenshot-axis.ngc%20-%20AXIS%202.5.0~pre%20on%20HM2-Servo.png
[22:40:52] <nicko> see how you can specify encoders pmwgens and stepgens ...
[22:41:03] <skunkworks___> exactly - that is why I pasted it :)
[22:41:23] <nicko> but it seems like encoders are linked to pwm gens
[22:41:30] <nicko> and stepgens are on their own
[22:42:01] <nicko> if I typed encoders=3 pwmgens=2 and stepgens=1
[22:42:21] <nicko> would it know that I wanted a step/dir axis with encoder feedback ?
[22:42:39] <skunkworks___> that is all done in the hal file.
[22:42:42] <nicko> or would it assume the stepgen was for a stepper drive
[22:43:35] <KimK> Sorry, I think my intertube sprung a leak. Am I back now?
[22:44:01] <nicko> ok, guess once i start repeatign myself I need to listen to what I;ve been told >>I need to write the .hal file myself huh ? ;)
[22:44:17] <nicko> Kimk>> yeh, you went - and now you're back ;)
[22:45:24] <KimK> I think I missed part of the beginning of your Q, but as for the last one, it wouldn't assume anything, it would just create 3 encoders, 2 pwmgens and 1 stepgen. What you do with them is up to you.
[22:47:41] <nicko> I think I;m limiting my understanding by using pncconf - it's a catch22 in that with a blank text file I dont know where to begin with hal - so I used pncconf to get me started but I think its GUI approach might be messing with the way I understand things at the moment so its making .hal files that are just as hard to 'fix' to what I want than starting one from fresh
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[22:48:32] <KimK> You can also pick a sample config that is close to what you want and then edit that by hand.
[22:48:39] <nicko> that was the idea
[22:49:17] <nicko> I posted a thread in the forums asking if anyone had any configs from a 3 or 4 axis mill with servo spindle - pncconf was the reply :P
[22:49:32] <KimK> Sorry, if you described your machine I missed that while I was floating in the aether.
[22:49:39] <nicko> heh heh - I'll get there... hope I dont sound like a moaner !
[22:50:05] <KimK> Not at all, please continue
[22:50:29] <nicko> KimK>> its a VMC style mill - XYZA+servospindle - somewhere between desktop and huge
[22:51:15] <nicko> currently tipping the scales at 400Kg 800 or so pounds
[22:51:26] <nicko> no enclosure designed yet
[22:51:31] <KimK> OK, excellent. And you expect to do rigid tapping and gear hobbing and such? That's fine.
[22:51:47] <nicko> rigid tapping yes
[22:51:55] <nicko> hobbing, not yet
[22:52:17] <KimK> Have you seen Andy Pugh's gear hobbing video?
[22:52:23] <nicko> maybe just what do you call them, 'radial' gear cutters around A
[22:52:34] <nicko> maybe, I have searched youtube LOTS
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[22:52:54] <nicko> there is an EMC hobbing video that turns up - is that his ?
[22:53:57] <KimK> This one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhICrb0Tbn4
[22:54:43] <KimK> About 0:30 or so he (briefly) shows his homemade spindle encoder.
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[22:56:45] <Tom_itx> why 3 sensors?
[22:57:21] <KimK> A, B, (quadrature) and C/Z (index)
[22:57:35] <Tom_itx> ahh ok
[22:57:46] <Tom_itx> is his a servo driven machine?
[22:58:34] <KimK> He has another nice one on hexagonal boring, which is another example of cross-coupling two axes/joints. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4q8gCpeY1A
[22:59:05] <KimK> Tom_itx: I don't know, that's a good question.
[22:59:09] <nicko> KinK>>yeh, I've seen this video
[22:59:21] <nicko> heh - didn't know it was Andy
[22:59:39] <KimK> OK, great. Yes, that's him.
[23:00:07] <nicko> those collet nuts are going to hob each other if he isn't careful ;)
[23:00:28] <KimK> Haha, yes, not a lot of extra room there.
[23:01:13] <nicko> oooh, ahhh - yeh I wondered how to make my own SHCS ...
[23:01:30] <KimK> Those are the videos that end with, "Oh crap! Shut it off! Shut it off!"
[23:01:34] <Tom_itx> is that an R8 on his A axis?
[23:01:41] <nicko> Apprently axe handles were made the same way 100+ years ago
[23:02:15] <syyl> seems to be a ER32 collet chuck with cylindrical shaft
[23:02:16] <nicko> external turning though...
[23:03:29] <nicko> the A on the mill ?? yeh looks like an ER32 collet and a homebuilt livetool kind of set up
[23:03:44] <syyl> he even says er32 :D
[23:04:09] <Tom_itx> no audio
[23:04:19] <syyl> oh
[23:04:33] <syyl> then it might be hard to hear that
[23:04:43] <nicko> like this: http://www.imte.ca/pics/L30000018-0.jpg
[23:04:57] <nicko> you can get them on ebay
[23:05:06] <nicko> it what my spindle is based on
[23:05:18] <syyl> and often very cheap
[23:05:20] * KimK goes to get a big tumbler of ice water
[23:05:35] <syyl> got two for around 50bucks each
[23:05:41] <nicko> an 1.8Kw AC servo coupled to that
[23:05:49] <syyl> one er16 and one er32
[23:05:53] <nicko> annoying part is the duty cycles involved
[23:06:04] <nicko> with preloaded bearings they heat up quite fast
[23:06:26] <syyl> in a real machine they are cooled with the cutting cooleant
[23:06:39] <nicko> its mounted in a big heat/press fit chunk of alloy which acts as a good sink though
[23:06:45] <nicko> yes
[23:06:57] <syyl> didnt use mine for anything yet :D
[23:06:58] <nicko> I dont want flood though - too messy and all that enclosure to deal with
[23:07:34] <syyl> some day i will build a desktop lathe, using the er32 as the main spindle
[23:07:43] <nicko> fog buster mist and maybe a vortex air cooling thingy if I can be bothered with the noise and expense of a larger compressor
[23:07:48] <nicko> cool cool
[23:08:35] <nicko> they pretty much are sideways mills - like lathes can be - but you get the benefit of designing it for the jobs you foresee
[23:11:25] <nicko> any one know about using differential pair connections from Mesa cards ?
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[23:18:59] <KimK> On the FPGA cards? Boy, nobody has used that that I know of. That would be for a real high-speed deal. Not sure what. Or if they have any cards that even use that feature themselves?
[23:19:55] <nicko> maybe I;m mixed up
[23:20:39] <KimK> nicko: We kind of got off track I guess. Did I even come close to answering your original questions?
[23:20:41] <nicko> the Ultra3000 (Allen Bradely) drive I have - its inputs talk about + and - pairs for its step and dir inputs
[23:21:17] <nicko> I remember readin the 5i22 has a connector set up for differential pairs
[23:21:27] <KimK> Allen-Bradley made a step/dir servo drive!? Bah, shame on them.
[23:21:34] <nicko> maybe its something different altogether ?
[23:21:47] <KimK> Wait, did I say that out loud? Nevermind.
[23:22:11] <nicko> AB Ultra3000 hs step/dir on the sly - it's a part of the encoder following functionality
[23:22:29] <nicko> Kollmorgen do the same
[23:22:39] <nicko> they dont advetise it though -
[23:23:09] <KimK> Oh, it's an output? I've never seen that for an encoder follower. Whatsamata with A/B ?
[23:23:35] <nicko> ok, maybe I dont know what Im talign about
[23:24:00] <nicko> A/B = ?
[23:24:15] <nicko> oh Allen Bradley you mean ?
[23:24:59] <nicko> The Ultra3000 drives I had have an input mode to drive them under the encoder following 'section' - called step/dir
[23:25:01] <KimK> I'm sorry too, I don't think I'm helping us stay on track. Let's go back to your original questions about Mesa. Oh, A/B? I meant A and B, encoder quadrature type signals
[23:26:09] <KimK> Oh, so it is an input? Must be in position mode then. OK. But you don't want to run step/dir, I don't imagine? You want true servo, right?
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[23:26:48] <nicko> I want true servo - but was under the impression you could do true servo via step/dir
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[23:29:10] <KimK> Well, it may be true servo, but it would be true servo outside the control of EMC2, so that EMC2 cannot help you with it. "Stepper servos" are not encouraged, although some have gone ahead with them anyway. EMC2 can do it, but why would you want to, is the general view around here, I think.
[23:30:07] <KimK> Particularly if you have Mesa cards, which are excellent for servos.
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[23:32:16] <nicko> I could be wrong here so keep that in mind - but - I thought step.dir was just a method for sending signals to a drive and that there was capability for the thing sending those signals to get feedback from the drive and then close the loop itself
[23:32:41] <nicko> 'step/dir' not bieng just a common term for all things 'stepper' or open loop
[23:32:51] <aggrav8d> hm. so i tried g61 on the flower pattern. it went right to the corners and did a lot of (seemingly) unnecessary rise & falls. The cut turned out worse, however. I think the stock shifted.
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[23:36:45] <KimK> Yes, classically, step/dir is used on steppers in open loop situations. But only more recently have there been servo drives that can run in stand-alone-position-hold mode and take direction via step/dir (or up/down) inputs. Historically, servomotors and amps were analog, controlled from the control itself. And that's still the preferred way.
[23:37:28] <KimK> aggrav8d: OK, that's still helpful. Just keep tightening things up as you go.
[23:39:33] <nicko> From the conversations I've heard the EMC way seems to be handover the control to EMC and run drives in velocity(?) or even to the current/torque level (?)
[23:39:53] <nicko> while EMC has control over the position level - correct ?
[23:41:13] <nicko> but while there may be redundancy in nesting position loops (i.e. emc running step/dir commands to a drive which closes the loop internally but still gives EMC encoder data of which it probably finds zero error in for which to work with)
[23:41:34] <nicko> it still allows EMC to be 'aware' of an axis in real terms
[23:41:54] <nicko> unlike a simple stepper which may have stalled for instance
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[23:43:08] <nicko> I'm keen to learn, best way is to talk and be corrected - so I expect I have something wrong in there -
[23:45:05] <KimK> Yes, letting EMC2 do the controlling is the best way. And velocity is probably the best control mode, although EMC2 can simulate a velocity output very well, and use that so operating in Torque mode is OK too. On the steppers, I have heard stories of people running steppers in closed loop mode, but (like a Yeti or a UFO?) I have never seen one. Now, running steppers with encoder feedback for following error monitoring? Sure, no problem.
[23:45:57] <KimK> That's still open-loop though
[23:46:38] <KimK> But it would tell you that you got through your gcode without mising any steps, so that's a good thing.
[23:46:50] <KimK> s/mising/missing/
[23:46:52] <Tom_itx> i would think the encoder would need to be a multiple of the step deg
[23:47:06] <nicko> But I'm talking about running servos in step/dir mode
[23:47:11] <nicko> servo drives
[23:47:59] <nicko> EMC>>step/dir signals to>>drive in position mode (closes its own loop) >>sends encoder pulses to EMC2
[23:48:01] <KimK> Tom_itx: It doesn't have to be, but you might not be able to set the following error limits quite as tight if it's not, that's true.
[23:48:31] <nicko> so EMC would likely never see any error for its PID to work on
[23:49:00] <nicko> but it would have live feedback for me for instance - I'd see hwo the drive was dealing with things ...
[23:50:39] <KimK> Yes. In that case you would have taken your fine servo system and made an ordinary stepper system with following error warning out of it. Congratulations.
[23:51:49] <nicko> hmmm
[23:52:21] <KimK> But how much better to let EMC2 run the servo system, then you get the benefits of EMC2's assistance for tuning, and still have the following error warning. Best of both worlds.
[23:52:39] <nicko> I hope I dont cound like I have authority on this - trying to understand via persistent questioning
[23:52:52] <KimK> No, questions are good.
[23:53:04] <nicko> the drives in question are *already* tuned though
[23:53:46] <KimK> How do you know?
[23:54:01] <nicko> cos I tuned them ?
[23:55:01] <nicko> I dont understand the part about it becoming an ordinary stepper system - an simple stepper system has no loop - what I;m talkign about actually has two loops
[23:55:14] <nicko> one on top of another
[23:55:41] <KimK> Ah, OK. Well, I'll assume that they are tuned then. But perhaps you can tell me why you are so keen to have a "stepper servo" system?
[23:56:11] <nicko> I'm not
[23:56:31] <nicko> see previous question ...
[23:56:46] <KimK> Your system would have two loops, but the outer loop is isolated from the inner loop.
[23:57:00] <nicko> or I guess 'statement' "I dont understand the part about it becoming an ordinary stepper system - an simple stepper system has no loop - what I;m talkign about actually has two loops "
[23:57:57] <KimK> All the inner loop (EMC2) can do is observe the outer loop and sound an alarm if it doesn't go where expected.
[23:58:27] <nicko> I thought if it got an error its loop would act ...
[23:58:54] <nicko> (not that it would get an error anyway, unless there was a real stall/issue, in which case EMC would have stalled too)