#emc | Logs for 2011-06-15

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[00:06:42] <KimK> JT-Shop: Also, when you can get in there, check the temp rating on those caps. If they went with 105C (for whatever reason) stick with that. If they went with 85C, OK, you can go either way.
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[00:16:53] <atom1> http://pastebin.com/CgYdhsT2
[00:16:57] <atom1> ok that sorta works
[00:17:34] <atom1> but the spindle.start is set by the code on startup and it shouldn't be
[00:19:03] <atom1> once i toggle it with the axis interface it works fine. it's the first iteration that's screwed up and it's due to the output from the default state of toggle2nist
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[00:47:17] <jdhNC> where does eagle/pcbgcode get drill sizes?
[00:47:44] <Tom_L> drill rack
[00:48:30] <Tom_L> Options -> Set -> Drill
[00:49:25] <jdhNC> how does it pick a drill size?
[00:49:36] <jdhNC> is there something in the package spec?
[00:49:40] <Tom_L> you pick
[00:49:50] <Tom_L> then or in the schematic
[00:51:01] <jdhNC> I'm looking at the schematic. I have a pad that needs a hole. I see no place to specify size
[00:51:14] <Tom_L> use a via
[00:51:33] <jdhNC> you have to add all the holes manually?
[00:51:33] <Tom_L> top dialog box
[00:51:41] <Tom_L> no
[00:51:52] <Tom_L> i don't know what you're doing
[00:52:09] <jdhNC> I have a schematic, board is layed out, jumpers, parts, etc.
[00:52:26] <jdhNC> how does it know what size drill is needed for each resistor or whatever
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[00:52:41] <Tom_L> it's in the lib part description
[00:52:51] <Tom_L> done when the part is made for the lib
[00:53:46] <jdhNC> not much chance I'll be able to get both sides right the first time?
[00:54:17] <Tom_L> both sides of what?
[00:54:29] <jdhNC> of the board I want to mill
[00:54:42] <Tom_L> if you align it well enough there is
[00:54:47] <jdhNC> do I need one or more index pins?
[00:55:01] <Tom_L> i would use a couple on opposite sides of the board
[00:55:10] <Tom_L> i generally use holes i'm already needing
[00:55:32] <Tom_L> use one of them to reference zero from
[00:55:44] <Tom_L> but then i don't mill boards
[00:56:18] <jdhNC> ever seen a footprint for a solder-cup db9 that fits on the edge of a board?
[00:56:36] <Tom_L> i use them
[00:56:48] <jdhNC> are they in a library?
[00:57:07] <Tom_L> i'm bettin they are :)
[00:57:42] <Tom_L> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/misc_stuff/rs232_3.jpg
[00:57:42] <Tom_L> like that?
[00:58:39] <Tom_L> lemme find it
[00:59:56] <Tom_L> con-subd package: F09D
[01:00:14] <Tom_L> the gender is important
[01:00:20] <Tom_L> otherwise it will be backwards
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[01:14:19] <jdhNC> cool
[01:16:26] <jdhNC> is there an easy way to swap the db9 I have on my schematic/board for this one?
[01:16:52] <Tom_L> do you have it all routed?
[01:17:10] <jdhNC> heh, yeah... guess half the traces will end up on the back
[01:17:14] <jdhNC> or front
[01:17:27] <Tom_L> drop the part
[01:17:33] <Tom_L> add the wires to it
[01:17:40] <Tom_L> THEN delete the other one
[01:17:40] <jdhNC> this makes a top drill and bottom drill file. Shouldn't they be the same?
[01:18:03] <Tom_L> yes
[01:21:57] <jdhNC> that worked pretty well, thanks!
[01:23:21] <jdhNC> can I rotate it through Z?
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[01:24:36] <Tom_itx> not sure what you're after
[01:24:51] <jdhNC> 1-5 are on the top side of the board, I need them on the bottom
[01:24:52] <Tom_itx> you want to flip it over?
[01:24:57] <Tom_itx> mirror
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[01:25:01] <Tom_itx> group it first
[01:25:03] <Tom_itx> then mirror it
[01:28:59] <andypugh> I have a 14mm dia x 25mm long x 1.25mm wall thickness closed-end tube, all machined from solid O1.
[01:29:42] <jdhNC> what does one do with said tube?
[01:30:22] <andypugh> I want to machine away half the diameter for half the length. (from the closed end). I wonder how to hold it?
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[01:31:36] <andypugh> (there is a very unclear picture of one here) https://picasaweb.google.com/bodgesoc/Gibbs#5617063476501297346
[01:31:38] <jdhNC> closed end in the collet, open end in a live center?
[01:32:34] <andypugh> I think I am being unclear
[01:32:46] <jdhNC> nah, I just had it wrong.
[01:33:29] <andypugh> It fits in the big-end cap of an engine and scoops oil out of a trough into the bearing.
[01:34:24] <andypugh> I think I need to make an expanding mandrel that I can hold in a milling vice. Which sounds like work.
[01:35:29] <andypugh> I find myself wanting to make a rectangular block with an ER32 collet mount in it.
[01:38:47] <andypugh> (It isn't actually O1, by the way, it's what we call "Silver steel" in the UK, 1% carbon, 0.3% Si/Mn/Cr)
[01:41:55] <jdhNC> that's what I was thinking.
[01:42:09] <jdhNC> (never heard of O1)
[01:48:37] <andypugh> Silver steel (Google says) is close to W2
[01:48:53] <jdhNC> yeah, I saw the wiki entry
[01:49:10] <jdhNC> any suggetions for removing rust from an old lathe?
[01:50:56] <jdhNC> is there a way to find out what drill sizes go with what part in eagle?
[01:51:19] <cradek> I think there's a bom ulp?
[01:51:33] <Tom_itx> i think there's also a ulp for gcode
[01:51:35] <cradek> or you could look at it in the library editor of course
[01:52:28] <jdhNC> the BOM is cool, but no sizes
[01:52:57] <andypugh> I am only using Silver Steel as a) I had some and b) It machines to a nice finish. It is tough stuff, though. You need to go slow.
[01:54:19] <Tom_itx> drill-ledgend.ulp
[01:54:55] <andypugh> Where is the lathe rusty?
[01:55:51] <jdhNC> everywhere that isn't painted
[01:56:12] <jdhNC> no pitting, just light rust
[01:56:14] <andypugh> I think I would start with oily ScotchBrite
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[01:56:52] <jdhNC> sounds good, we have a bunch of different scotchbrite pads at work
[01:57:55] <andypugh> "rinse" off with carb cleaner or WD40
[01:58:29] <jdhNC> and I have lots of carb cleaner from my previous 2-stroke boat engines
[01:59:41] <andypugh> Of course, if it's a project you want: http://hellofriendpeace.tripod.com/id7.html
[02:01:28] <andypugh> Right at the end it mentions a metal-backed sponge with electrolyte and a battery for large parts. What could possibly go wrong?
[02:01:56] <jdhNC> that's more than I want to do
[02:02:38] <andypugh> I think brown Scotch-Brite is the way to go.
[02:02:54] <jdhNC> we have brown, grey, red, green
[02:03:24] <jdhNC> the red stuff just falls apart though
[02:04:16] <KimK> andypugh: Do you have any friends in your area that do wire EDM? That would make the holding of your oil scoop a lot easier, since there'd be no force applied. And the material hardness wouldn't matter either.
[02:05:04] <andypugh> Not here. I had access to wire EDM when I worked at Sheffield Uni, and I do miss it.
[02:05:32] <KimK> Ah, OK. It was just an idea.
[02:05:39] <andypugh> It is actually one of those jobs where gentle use of a hacksaw and file might turn out easiest.
[02:07:24] <KimK> Or, along those lines, how about a Dremel/Die-grinder type "mini abrasive wheel", maybe .015 or .025 thick and 1.00 or 1.50 in dia?
[02:07:49] <KimK> I've had good luck with those.
[02:08:17] <andypugh> Aye, that would work. I just tend to eschew hand-craftedness now I have CNC
[02:08:20] <KimK> The thicker wheels hold up better, but take longer to cut the wider path.
[02:09:18] <KimK> The thinner ones cut faster, but they're easy to shatter if your attention wanders and you go a bit crooked.
[02:09:54] <andypugh> I am _far_ too skillful to ever have had that happen.
[02:10:13] <KimK> Ha, excellent then!
[02:10:17] <andypugh> (That wasn't very convincing was it?)
[02:11:53] <KimK> I believe all the pronouncements of my respected colleagues. Or at least I don't say anything if I don't, lol.
[02:13:25] <KimK> I was going to try 2.5 lathe sim for you, but too many problems here it appears.
[02:17:19] <andypugh> Interesting that they exist. I wonder if they need grown-ups to fix?
[02:20:35] <KimK> Ha, I would be happy to take help from a grown-up at this point.
[02:23:06] <KimK> You're up pretty late, you must be insistent on getting that oil scoop done.
[02:23:57] <Tom_itx> andypugh, those attach to the bearings then?
[02:24:13] <Tom_itx> i remember working on an old motor that had babbit bearings with scoops on the bottom
[02:24:23] <Tom_itx> alot smaller
[02:25:21] <andypugh> Nah, I am insistent of getting a bit of geeking done after the machining.
[02:26:11] <andypugh> Yes, they hang out the bottom of the big ends. The bearings are 1/4" thick bronze shells with a later of babbit cast on.
[02:26:56] <Tom_itx> that makes more sense now
[02:27:21] <andypugh> Try this link: https://picasaweb.google.com/105490567869446297002/JezSSecondEngineRebuild2011?authkey=Gv1sRgCJHQjNC9otjoIw&feat=email
[02:37:31] <andypugh> Night all
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[04:09:18] <Gensor> kim: you up?
[04:09:37] <KimK> I'm here
[04:10:40] <Gensor> new info, I miss identified one of my encoder pair (very weak signal) and now have found the pair that has the same signal/voltage strength as the other encoder pairs
[04:11:38] <Gensor> now I have my mule servo, and one I am trying to not use except for circuit verification when things are in question.
[04:11:57] <KimK> Oh, OK. What you thought was the index before turned out not to be?
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[04:13:36] <Gensor> that said, from time to time i have two wires, one fully identified as ground, and another that shows continuity with ground from time to time. current one servo has it similar to ground (continuity) and the other no continuity
[04:14:00] <Gensor> yes, a misidentified index.... extremely week signal
[04:15:23] <KimK> Does this update improve anything as far as the wire color charts? Are we more like we should be now?
[04:15:25] <Gensor> two of the wires are on without pullup resistor
[04:15:49] <KimK> Oh, interesting.
[04:16:22] <Gensor> I will look again, but feel I need to do a battery of tests to find an auxilary 5v and/or ground on powerup with full rotation
[04:17:12] <Gensor> does the continuity test have value?
[04:19:17] <KimK> Well, the one that is solid to ground seems fine. The one that is occasionally connected to ground is troubling. "Occasionally connected" is not a wiring scheme that comes up very often.
[04:20:42] <KimK> Tell me more about that one. How did you determine it was not always grounded? Is there anything you can do to connect or disconnect it?
[04:22:54] <Gensor> how can i explain this, it does not behave like a ground, but have seen the continuity with ground on two different servos, and have seen it not have continuity.... goofy
[04:24:46] <Gensor> there must be a guy in the servo flipping a switch on me....
[04:26:20] <KimK> What resistance did you see there, do you recall? Was it stable (when it was there) or did it seem to be continually changing? Were you touching the leads during any of this? Sometimes auto-ranging ohmmeters will switch to the highest range on an open circuit, and detect skin resistance instead.
[04:29:45] <KimK> If you can force your ohmmeter to stay locked on the 1K range, or 100 ohm range, then you night be able to get away with touching the leads. (But it's a bad habit to get into for safety reasons, better to use the tip clips, or a jumper clip, at least.)
[04:29:45] <Gensor> i was touching the leads, but early on I measured the risistance as .5ohm
[04:30:23] <KimK> Oh, OK, great, 0.5 ohm is pretty low. That sounds like a real connection.
[04:30:56] <Gensor> yes, and the source of my confusion (especially being a non EE believer)
[04:32:16] <KimK> It is possible that this motor lead is broken or frayed inside the motor. Is this thought to be a new or used motor?
[04:37:04] <KimK> You should have three (or four) basic wire groups there. Motor power, 3 heavy leads, maybe 1 more for ground. Encoder, probably 8, maybe 10. Halls, hard to tell, but at least 3 for sure. And "other" (if any), like that thermal switch/sensor I was telling you about.
[04:39:13] <KimK> The power leads will go deepest into the motor, have to reach the field windings. Next the Halls, near the back of the armature, probably. The encoder would be closest to the outside. So, how does it look as far as covers or inspection plates?
[04:39:42] <KimK> I know that's a small motor, so I'm guessing none of those, except that they had to mount the encoder somehow.
[04:44:12] <Gensor> two cables, one with heavy gage wire 4wires from servo end (closest to shaft), the other cable has 14wires and have resolved all but the last 6 wires with your help. thanks again
[04:46:17] <Gensor> when you had me search for the index wires, was that using a 330 ohm?
[04:46:21] <KimK> No problem. So they brought the 4 power leads out the front (one is ground), and the kitchen sink they brought out the back?
[04:46:45] <Gensor> yep
[04:47:01] <KimK> No, I think the encoder's own differential drivers would do fine without it.
[04:47:15] <KimK> without the 330 ohm I mean.
[04:47:30] <Gensor> yep... but am so close and have learned plenty with your instruction
[04:48:08] <KimK> All but the last 6, eh? Can we learn anything more from the wire color charts?
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[04:55:27] <Gensor> when testing voltage between the pairs, one set of pairs have a voltage difference, the other two do not
[04:57:08] <Gensor> given similar pin count, channels A,b,z,u,v,w + and -
[04:58:13] <KimK> I'll look in those pdf docs you sent before
[04:59:19] <KimK> What was the series again? PV? RY? Something...
[04:59:27] <Gensor> Brown/White
[04:59:28] <Gensor> Brown
[04:59:28] <Gensor> Green
[04:59:28] <Gensor> Black
[04:59:28] <Gensor> Black/White
[04:59:28] <Gensor> Green/White
[04:59:41] <Gensor> for the driver?
[05:00:23] <KimK> No, for the whole motor/ampl combo, I'm trying to pick yours out of their selection guide
[05:00:59] <Gensor> P50B07020DXA02M is the motor, driver is at work... let me dig to see if I have info an driver
[05:02:23] <KimK> OK, I do find a P5 servomotor listed, let me see if I can do anything with that.
[05:03:23] <KimK> Oh, I forgot to ask, does the shaft turn easily?
[05:04:59] <Gensor> somewhat like a stepper without the steps... these are the first servos I have played with and are in like new condition, driver is a PYxxxxx. Servos and driver built by sanyo for hirata (custome)
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[05:08:23] <Gensor> whats the difference between absolute and incremental encoder, and what is ideal for emc
[05:08:29] <KimK> Are the 14 wires loose or in a connector? Are the 4 wires red-white-black-green?
[05:09:24] <KimK> I guess I should ask if the 4 wires are in a connector too.
[05:10:52] <Gensor> red white green/yellow and black, the 15 (yes 15) wires were in a retangular 20 pin connector
[05:11:37] <Gensor> the four wires are in a connector similar to an ATX perifial power connection
[05:14:42] <KimK> An absolute encoder can report its position immediately upon power up without ever rotating. It takes relatively many wires to do this. An incremental encoder must be allowed to rotate until it stumbles across the index pulse to discover where it is. It takes relatively few wires to do this.
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[05:15:46] <KimK> EMC2 is not yet able to use absolute encoders, but that will come in time.
[05:17:01] <Gensor> the brown pair have .5 volts difference, and LED's are lit with current going both directions
[05:18:08] <KimK> The "relatively many wires" part of their absolute encoder scheme is apparently what led them to provide some kind of unexplained serial conversion scheme that they called "wire saving".
[05:19:28] <KimK> Oh, you have two LEDs and resistors back to back? So you can watch it change? Cool.
[05:19:50] <KimK> OK, maybe one resistor.
[05:20:31] <Gensor> one res, and two led's. that is how I found the index pair. and ran the same test now trying to learn more
[05:20:48] <Gensor> 330 ohm
[05:21:20] <KimK> That works. What are the Brown, Green, and Black pairs, known or unknown?
[05:24:00] <Gensor> unknown
[05:24:56] <KimK> OK, the ones that are left, got it.
[05:33:07] <KimK> More questions: (1) the previously discovered encoder wires, were they: Blue & Brown; Green & Violet; White & Yellow; Red & Black? (2) With power off, is there continuity from the white-green to the motor case?
[05:34:55] <KimK> Your other choice for (1) is Blue-white/white-blue; Yellow-white/white-yellow; and Orange-white/white-Orange
[05:35:11] <Gensor> blue/white
[05:35:11] <Gensor> Blue
[05:35:11] <Gensor> Yellow/White
[05:35:11] <Gensor> Yellow
[05:35:11] <Gensor> Orange/White
[05:35:12] <Gensor> Orange
[05:35:12] <Gensor> encoder pairs
[05:35:24] <KimK> Oh, probably plus red and black again too.
[05:36:12] <Gensor> red = 5v, red/white = signal ground, large gauge black = chassis ground
[05:36:28] <KimK> OK. You might not have any Halls, you might have an absolute encoder. You said you have the drive for this thing?
[05:37:11] <Gensor> I do, but that is a dead horse... no cables or instuctions, hence my effort here
[05:37:43] <Gensor> and no support from sanyo since this was designed for hirata
[05:37:48] <KimK> OK. We might be making progress. Do you have a copy of the PDFs you recommended to me?
[05:38:42] <Gensor> whoops... yes, this is an absolute encoder, which I thought has halls
[05:39:42] <Gensor> which one are you looking at?
[05:39:54] <KimK> I'm looking in particular at M0001584J(PY2)-E.pdf page 61
[05:40:13] <Gensor> i have it open
[05:41:50] <KimK> They show the same thing twice, top has the cheap nylon connector that yours has, bottom one has expensive military-style "Cannon" plugs (the company, not the artillery, lol!)
[05:43:06] <Gensor> I do not have the cannon connector though it is rectangular and i have not been able to identify manuf or manf p/n
[05:43:39] <KimK> So I think that's your hookup diagram, provided that white-green goes to FG (frame ground) on the motor, that's our clue. Do that test when you can.
[05:45:15] <KimK> He calls out the connector part number on the page. you can probably find the brand with a magnifying glass. It's like what I used to call an "AMP" connector, only now AMP has been bought out once or twice, I think it's Tyco now.
[05:46:07] <KimK> It's some Asian version of my AMP connectors, we'll figure it out.
[05:46:53] <Gensor> the only wires with continuity with the frame is the heavy gauge black from the 15 wire cable, and from the green/yellow from the 4wire cable
[05:47:53] <Gensor> what page are you looking at
[05:48:30] <KimK> Anyway, there's your white-brown pair on ES+ and ES-, probably happily putting out serial data of some kind, which it why you said both LEDs were on.
[05:48:57] <KimK> Still on page 61
[05:49:08] <KimK> top half
[05:50:55] <KimK> Doh! Sorry, my mistake, the Cannon plug is optional on the motor end, naturally. The drive gets the nylon plug either way.
[05:52:23] <KimK> So I think we've learned something. I believe you have their "ABS-E" system.
[05:52:55] <Gensor> and I have sourced those connector p/n and they are different than mine. not a concern anymore since I am whacking them off.
[05:54:02] <KimK> The ABS-E system shouldn't be a problem as long as the drive gives you an encoder follower output, and I think it does, let me go look. It was a 300W motor, right?
[05:54:15] <Gensor> im not fully sold on the es being serial data though
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[05:54:38] <Gensor> 200watt
[05:54:57] <KimK> OK, 200W. brb...
[05:56:52] <KimK> They talk about "Sumitomo 3M" for some connectors, have you looked into those?
[05:57:50] <Gensor> yep... pls dont worry about connectors. any wisdome on the ebat eres
[05:58:09] <KimK> I only got to page 64: "CN1 is an interface connector to a host computer or the like. The connector of the amplifier is "10250-52A2JL" (made by Sumitomo 3M)."
[05:58:35] <KimK> I'm worried about the host interface, we need that follower output.
[06:00:23] <Gensor> wait.... lets assume I will not use the driver. and assume andy will have code that will utilize i8020 soon
[06:00:35] <KimK> OK, it looks like it's there on that diagram. We'll check it again elsewhere in the book. What do you mean you're whacking them off? They're handy! And you'll have to use at least one to attach to the drive, won't you?
[06:01:11] <KimK> Oh, you don't have the drive? That'll make things tougher.
[06:01:31] <Gensor> I have the drive, and is plan b
[06:01:55] <Gensor> or perhaps plan a
[06:02:17] <Gensor> I have two plans to work with, and the mesa cards are purchased
[06:03:37] <Gensor> could eres be the same as reset
[06:03:44] <KimK> Oh, great, then you have everything you need. Well, except for the connectors, maybe.
[06:04:16] <Gensor> and will deal with that when I have a working solution
[06:06:06] <KimK> It's the other way around. Get the proper connectors and then try hooking it up. Otherwise you're likely to damage something with funky connector mishaps.
[06:06:39] <KimK> They're not that expensive, and i suspect not that hard to get either, once we start looking.
[06:07:17] <KimK> What Mesa cards do you have?
[06:08:49] <KimK> How many of these motor/drive pairs do you have?
[06:10:36] <Gensor> ordered 5i23 7i44 and 8i20
[06:11:01] <Gensor> 4 servo/drivers
[06:11:49] <Gensor> and I beg to differ on the connectors, a 15-20 pin connector is $30-$50 each especially a cannon
[06:12:12] <Gensor> or i should say half of the connector
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[06:13:46] <KimK> But these aren't Cannons, just nylon run-of-the-mill connectors. They don't cost much. $1-$2 for the shell, $10 for a big bag of pins maybe.
[06:14:02] <Gensor> unless I go cheap like an rs232 etc
[06:14:23] <KimK> I'd have to see a photo, I'm guessing from the line drawings in the pdf.
[06:15:33] <Gensor> http://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data%20Sheets/3M%20PDFs/TS-0669-08.pdf
[06:15:42] <KimK> You still need to attach to the drive. Unless you're planning on hacking the drive, and goobering a new cable out some hole. I'd advise against it.
[06:16:21] <KimK> What was the 7i44 again?
[06:17:31] <Gensor> its for cat5 cable connections for i/o i believe... something cat5 so I dont have to deal with connectors :)
[06:19:06] <Gensor> that connector is to connect to the driver. and now that I can call sanyo and ask for cable for abs-e encoder.... maybe I can get my cables
[06:19:23] <KimK> Ha, OK. Well, there should be plenty of 7i33s or similar in stock. And if you already have the 8i20's you won't have any trouble selling them.
[06:19:36] <Gensor> ack... or build them from scratch :(
[06:20:23] <Gensor> granted... when looking for a 20 pin connector I was looking for o-ring seal
[06:20:36] <Gensor> hence the 30-50 bucks for half of the connector
[06:21:20] <KimK> Yes, that would be on the motor (wet) end. But we're on the amp end, so, dry and cheap, lol.
[06:23:17] <KimK> If you must hack off the connector on the motor end, I have some suggestions, but let me save them until we see if they're really needed. Connectors (especially "new" ones) are handy.
[06:24:10] <KimK> Jot down the model number of your drives next time you're standing in front of them.
[06:24:49] <KimK> I forgot, what are you building again?
[06:26:53] <Gensor> learning right now... but am open to robot arm or plasma table
[06:29:29] <KimK> Oh, you asked about the ebat/eres business. It's some kind of battery backup, it would appear. Res, I don't know, reset? Re-send? A battery to maintain knowledge of position? I'm not sure why, if it's really absolute. And if it's just watching the incremental encoder, what if you rotate it with the power off, what then? A lot of mysteries, but it presumably works with it's mate.
[06:29:54] <Gensor> so..... assuming i have a serial data connection for my absolute encoder, that means I will not be able to utilize hall with the 8i20 correct
[06:35:25] <KimK> Well, you might be able to build a circuit that extracts the information, but since there's already one in the drive, It's a tossup whether it's worth the bother. Maybe it is, and would work.
[06:35:28] <KimK> On the other hand, if I'm wrong about all this, your exit strategy can be to go back to the 8i20s, and get into the back of the motors and toss whatever is in there and put in incremental encoders with simulated Hall outputs. Or make some Hall detectors if they've already got a really nice incremental encoder in there.
[06:36:06] <KimK> And then sell the drives.
[06:36:19] <KimK> So there are many ways to skin the cat.
[06:38:12] <Gensor> im laughing a little. I was told to get incremental, and absolute if possible. hence these servos appeared to fit the bill given the p/n decoder ring. now I am scratching my head. However am better knowledged about encoders/datasheets/pinouts/debug
[06:39:28] <KimK> Ha, yes, what's that saying, "Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else" or something like that.
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[06:42:55] <KimK> And funny thing, you may indeed have an incremental encoder in there. If you look at the other one (ABS-R-II, was it?) It looks like the ABS-E only without the incremental encoder(?), just the absolute encoder/battery/reset(?) business. So in the ABS_R_II they rely solely on the absolute encoder "thingy", whatever it is.
[06:44:49] <KimK> A real absolute encoder with serial outputs? Hall effect devices with serial outputs? Not sure. The spec sheet as to what the different models can do might give up some clues.
[06:45:43] <KimK> Anyway, some good progress tonight, even if you don't feel any closer to your goal.
[06:46:42] <Gensor> things will get really exciting whene 220v gets hooked up to the driver enclosure.... yikes
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[06:49:12] <Gensor> assuming I get bored, I will publish something on the cnc forum, attempt to document what I have learned from you for others to disect encoders etc. then ask if anyone knows about the other pinouts
[06:49:12] <KimK> Oh, I was going to ask that. Do you have one of the "200 VAC" drives, or one of the "100 VAC" drives. (Lower line voltages in Japan, but they do rate for 230VAC +10% and 115VAC +10%, at least at one point in the manual.)
[06:50:07] <Gensor> the servos are 200v, the driver cage (4 drivers) is 220v
[06:51:05] <Gensor> they were using these in denver and I assume....... since hirata is no more, they are dumping inventory etc
[06:52:56] <KimK> OK, 200/220. 4 x 200W is only about half of a wall socket load, you can get a control transformer (1 KW min, 1.5 or 2 KW if you can) if you want to avoid having to use a special outlet. Just plug into any wall outlet.
[06:55:27] <Gensor> i just wired garage for 220 60amp and 220 30 amp.... and ripped out all cables out of breaker box to drill more holes in the header wall, then plumbed it all back together. I am good
[06:58:47] <KimK> OK, great. Don't forget to fuse each device separately, especially if small. Like your drives, say. If they are rated for 5A, don't connect all four together and use one 20A fuse. Use four 5A fuses.
[07:00:50] <Gensor> thanks for the info
[07:01:00] <KimK> Actually, with 220, it'll be don't connect all four together and use just one pair of 20A fuses. Use four pairs of 5A fuses. (Both sides are hot.)
[07:01:59] <Gensor> have you seen a video of a guy carving a bear out of clay about 2ft in length, then scans 3d, then uses robot arm to router a styrofoam bear that stands 8ft tall?
[07:03:54] <KimK> No, I haven't seen that, sounds cool. Are you on the EMC-users mailing list? I posted a HeeksCAD video that's pretty good, movable parts. I can post the link here if you're not on the list.
[07:04:38] <Gensor> im on the list, hoever behind about 40 emails :(
[07:05:24] <KimK> HeeksCAD "movable parts" tutorial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXiTjvOVg5A (maybe one of the lurkers not on the list will like it.)
[07:06:32] <KimK> Well, I've probably bothered you enough for one night.
[07:08:21] <Gensor> ya... time for me to crash also. thanks and enjoy!
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[07:08:53] <KimK> You bet. Goodnight.
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[07:36:15] <Valen> heeks seems to have come along in leaps and bounds
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[12:12:44] <skunkworks_> cradek: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/hardinge_lathes/129658-chnc_turret_plc_conversion_log-3.html
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[13:03:28] <cradek> skunkworks_:
[13:03:29] <cradek> Are you just going to have eight inputs? The original Hardinge unit does it with three. Don't know how, must be magic.
[13:03:58] <cradek> oh, I see now that you saw that!
[13:05:36] <skunkworks_> :)
[13:05:54] <cradek> I think people who think the cam grinding algorithm is simple are not seeing how the wheel will touch the cam not just only on the centerline
[13:06:24] <cradek> it's not a simple one dimensional problem
[13:07:14] <archivist_emc> unless you use a cup wheel :)
[13:07:47] <cradek> a very large one I guess
[13:07:59] <cradek> or a very tiny regular wheel
[13:09:12] <archivist_emc> but yes some missunderstanding going on in that thread
[13:10:45] <cradek> thankfully, I've never underestimated the complexity of a geometry problem, before I thought it through
[13:13:22] <skunkworks_> cradek: did you see that I stuck with your input scale. the calculated was off by .00017 per inch. The lead screw must not be even inches
[13:13:53] <cradek> my understanding is it's very normal for screws to be off that far
[13:14:00] <skunkworks_> yes
[13:14:25] <cradek> someone told me [stuart?] that old controls could only compensate in one direction so screws were pitched all one side of nominal
[13:14:28] <skunkworks_> I still have to do SX but I tweeked Y also.
[13:14:34] <skunkworks_> I still have to do X but I tweeked Y also.
[13:14:57] <skunkworks_> yes - I think I said the same thing last night. :) referencing stuart also
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[13:17:22] <cradek> I read back now - see that
[13:17:40] <skunkworks_> I needed to hold the gauge blocks better for x as they where sliding around the table as I was trying to measure ;)
[13:18:20] <skunkworks_> Y - gravity worked great and z we had clamped it to a face plate.
[13:18:47] <cradek> wonder if your old control did compensation
[13:18:56] <cradek> (seems very unlikely)
[13:18:58] <skunkworks_> scales
[13:19:03] <cradek> oh right, duh
[13:19:06] <skunkworks_> :)
[13:19:22] <cradek> well there's your obvious solution
[13:19:55] <skunkworks_> yes - I still need to play with andy resolver converter and see if I can get anything coherent out of the scales.
[13:20:28] <skunkworks_> but still - it is freaking accurate the way it is..
[13:20:47] <cradek> I would have sent you my extra pico converter if you had been doing this before I used it for my rotary table
[13:21:11] <cradek> yeah I can't believe it can go through all those gears and still work well. it's nothing short of amazing.
[13:21:46] <skunkworks_> I should have taken a few pictures of the other gear box. it is split gear scaryness.
[13:22:14] <cradek> it would be neat if you could measure for periodic errors
[13:22:25] <skunkworks_> heh
[13:22:34] <skunkworks_> I don't know if I want to..
[13:22:48] <skunkworks_> great - make me worry about that now... ;P
[13:22:52] <archivist_emc> sure you do....well we want to know :)
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[13:23:31] <cradek> screw comp of periodic error would be cool, and quite possible
[13:23:47] <archivist_emc> worst periodic errors I have seen are in rotary tables
[13:24:05] <cradek> I can sure see how that would happen
[13:24:12] <archivist_emc> measuring was entertaining
[13:24:18] <cradek> was just wondering...
[13:24:41] <cradek> I'd mount it horizontal, attach a bore standard, and use my probe
[13:24:56] <archivist_emc> collimator and mirror (polygon) on axis of rotary
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[13:25:49] <archivist_emc> low ratio worms are worst
[13:26:22] <archivist_emc> error is saw tooth, enough to screw gear milling up
[13:35:35] <skunkworks_> hmm - I should get a rotory table setup...
[13:36:32] <skunkworks_> but so far my projects have worked just fine with the indexer (5deg)
[13:37:03] <cradek> sounds like you just have to plan your clock gears carefully...
[13:46:13] <skunkworks_> heh
[13:47:11] <skunkworks_> cradek: thought of any projects for your rotory?
[13:52:02] <archivist_emc> cradek, you cant if you have to make a 100+ tooth wheel on a rotary that has 44-1 worm :)
[13:53:21] <archivist_emc> the cheapo vertex types have 90:1 and are not to bad considering the price, be wary of the others
[13:59:28] <archivist_emc> I have some reports here that trace gearbox noise back to the worm in the hobbing machine
[14:03:54] <skunkworks_> we have a nice selection of old rotory tables and indexing heads... have to go through and see what ones work well
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[14:27:40] <skunkworks_> this is sad - looks like he pretty much destroyed the encoder wheel...
[14:27:42] <skunkworks_> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/vertical_mill_lathe_project_log/125045-emco_120p_rebuild.html
[14:27:52] <skunkworks_> (last picture in last post)
[14:29:11] <cradek> eeee
[14:29:31] <cradek> sure would have worked great before he did that
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[14:30:37] <skunkworks_> yep
[14:31:07] <skunkworks_> initially he said he was going to try emc and mach.. He would have had more options with the encoder with emc. oh well
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[14:32:46] <Tom_itx> did he slice that hole in the encoder?
[14:33:37] <cradek> yes because mach uses one pulse per rev
[14:33:57] <Tom_itx> gawd
[14:38:46] <archivist_emc> the real problem, is other users stumbling on that page and following him
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[14:40:42] <Tom_itx> did anybody see my code post on the start up state of toggle2nist?
[14:42:13] <Tom_itx> http://pastebin.com/CgYdhsT2
[14:42:16] <Tom_itx> the spindle.start is set by the code on startup and it shouldn't be
[14:42:31] <Tom_itx> once i toggle it with the axis interface it works fine. it's the first iteration that's screwed up and it's due to the output from the default state of toggle2nist
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[14:55:25] <awallin> Tom_itx: could you try a version of toggle2nist which looks at is-on when it wakes up and report if that works?
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[16:10:16] <skunkworks_> I got disconnected again - didn't i?
[16:10:22] <skunkworks_> oh - maybe not
[16:10:55] <Tom_itx> maybe
[16:10:58] <theos> :)
[16:11:06] <theos> nop
[16:11:20] <theos> high ping though :)
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[16:43:33] <KimK> skunkworks_: Yikes, I just looked at the encoder disc butchery. I agree with archivist_emc, others will see that. You're registered on there, aren't you? Maybe you can kindly and gently point out that he is a doofus^N^N^N^N^N could have done it differently.
[16:45:42] <skunkworks_> I was wondering how to word it without brow beating him... ;)
[16:45:52] <archivist_emc> hehe
[16:46:16] <cradek> "correcting" him doesn't seem like a winning idea to me
[16:47:24] <skunkworks_> 'It is too bad you hacked up the original encoder disk... Emc could have used the extra pulses to create more accurite threads...'
[16:47:57] <skunkworks_> well - maybe with correct spelling...
[16:48:39] <archivist_emc> a technical explanation of the need for all the holes is required, without any you did it wrong
[16:49:23] <cradek> anything will lead to a debate over whether mach can cut good threads
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[16:49:32] <cradek> how can that be any fun
[16:49:39] <skunkworks_> exactly..
[16:50:06] <IchGuckLive> Hi all in the Wild With world
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[16:54:13] <KimK> OK, how about this: There are optical detectors like he used, only with taller posts. Then he wouldn't have interference problems with the A/B slots. And, you can point out the advantages of cutting a tiny slot that matches the dimensions of the A/B slots. Is that better?
[16:54:53] <cradek> but mach can't see a tiny slot
[16:55:12] <cradek> he could have made a new wheel, but why bother? he can't use the old one with his chosen software.
[16:55:53] <KimK> OK, put a pulse stretcher on it. Then he can throw a switch and run either software.
[16:56:43] <KimK> (Really? Mach can't see a small slot? Are they stepper only?
[16:57:03] <skunkworks_> all he will hear is 'bla bla bla bla mach sucks bla bla bla...'
[16:57:11] <skunkworks_> ;)
[16:58:46] <KimK> OK. Well, it's up to you. I'm not registered over there, and don't expect to.
[17:05:37] <skunkworks_> KimK: sometimes I have to be in the right 'helping' mood also. sometimes I will start a reply - read it - and decide it is probably best not to post it :)
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[17:08:49] <KimK> Sure, I understand. "No good deed goes unpunished", lol. Another m*** lathe that can't thread. That's a good seminar subject for CNC Workshop. "Lathe Threading: M*** vs. EMC2". (If you called it "Why M*** can't thread", you probably couldn't get it scheduled, lol!) Bring a table top lathe that can run both OSs. Have demos. Stir the pot.
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[17:14:57] <Tom_itx> fools are ignorant of their state
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[17:27:00] <cradek> take go-nogo thread gages
[17:27:11] <cradek> also, practice first
[17:29:47] <JT-Shop> KimK: the old caps are 85C
[17:32:31] <alex4nder> hey
[17:36:15] <JT-Shop> Tom_itx: did you invert your gpio input? if not it is on when you start!
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[17:46:33] <KimK> alex4nder: Hey back
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[17:48:37] <KimK> JT-Shop: 85C? Great, then you can use 85C or 105C. (Assuming all else matches too. You might have to stick to 85C to get everything else to match, or because of availability, or price. But it's nice to have options.)
[17:51:44] <FinboySlick> Hmmm, my normally <7000 jitter box gave me a blip at 70 000... Any recommendations for a tiny embeded board that I could really rely on?
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[18:01:37] <IchGuckLive> nabend Loetmichel
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[18:04:07] <IchGuckLive> FinboySlick: homany axes ?
[18:07:37] <FinboySlick> IchGuckLive: By embeded board I really meant a PC motherboard. I've got 4 axes but I plan to add a fifth soon.
[18:07:39] <IchGuckLive> pok By for me Here lunar eclipse today in Germany
[18:07:51] <FinboySlick> IchGuckLive: I'll probably need two parallel ports.
[18:08:06] <IchGuckLive> 5Axis can fit 1 Port
[18:08:25] <IchGuckLive> the PC's are so cheep
[18:08:41] <IchGuckLive> ebay 25$ for a 2Ghz
[18:08:43] <FinboySlick> IchGuckLive: I think I'm using a couple output pins for the spindle too.
[18:08:53] <IchGuckLive> shout you one 10GB HDD enove
[18:08:59] <FinboySlick> IchGuckLive: Yeah, I have several PC boards, I need one that has good jitter though.
[18:10:01] <FinboySlick> All the ones I tried weren't very good at all. I tweaked one to < 7000 but it seems I can't tweak it enough to have it do so reliably enough for my taste.
[18:10:25] <IchGuckLive> do you need sutch high speed
[18:11:13] <FinboySlick> IchGuckLive: The mill has a pretty fast spindle which means lots of tiny passes. I'll take all the speed I can manage.
[18:11:47] <IchGuckLive> ok lower is ofen more fun
[18:12:15] <FinboySlick> It's also all linear with relatively beefy steppers so it can probably handle a fair bit of inertia. Not sure how well the electronics will manage though.
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[18:16:39] <IchGuckLive> ok by for me O.O
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[19:37:58] <Tom_itx> logger[psha]
[19:39:09] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, it should be inverted?
[19:40:12] <JT-Shop> if you want it off at the start
[19:40:21] <Tom_itx> how do i invert an input?
[19:40:29] <Tom_itx> i've inverted output before..
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[19:40:51] <Tom_itx> hardware?
[19:41:10] <JT-Hardinge> Tom_itx: # set up outputs for 7i37 cards JT
[19:41:11] <JT-Hardinge> setp hm2_5i20.0.gpio.040.is_output 1
[19:41:12] <JT-Hardinge> setp hm2_5i20.0.gpio.040.invert_output 1
[19:41:31] <JT-Shop> opps
[19:41:35] <Tom_itx> for output yes
[19:41:37] <JT-Shop> I was thinking input]
[19:41:51] <Tom_itx> the output in this case is the function
[19:42:06] <JT-Hardinge> net turret-encoder1 wsum.0.bit.0.in <= hm2_5i20.0.gpio.063.in_not
[19:42:14] <Tom_itx> ahh
[19:42:15] <Tom_itx> yeah
[19:42:20] <JT-Hardinge> look in the hal watch window to see the default state
[19:42:28] <Tom_itx> i have been
[19:43:38] <Tom_itx> i tried using halui.program.is-running as part of it but it acted strangely so i removedit
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[19:44:03] <Tom_itx> i'm not sure but it may also act a bit strange on the other 2 functions
[19:44:08] <Tom_itx> i'm gonna test it some more
[19:44:31] <Tom_itx> seems to lag a bit when you push f2
[19:44:47] <Tom_itx> (seconds)
[19:46:05] <JT-Shop> what does F2 do?
[19:46:39] <Tom_itx> starts the program
[19:47:03] <Tom_itx> i don't have it on atm
[19:47:26] <JT-Shop> ok
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[19:48:54] <mrsunshine> how is backlash in planetery gears?
[19:49:50] <FinboySlick> mrsunshine: If you're lucky it can be pretty low, backlash of one of the planets compensated by another, etc.
[19:50:08] <FinboySlick> mrsunshine: Technically, that could even be made adjustable.
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[20:05:30] <alex4nder> anyone run EMC2 with a USB device (like rt-stepper)?
[20:05:43] <cradek> none of those kinds of devices work with EMC2
[20:06:08] <cradek> some technical information about why, here: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Emc2HardwareDesign
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[20:06:56] <alex4nder> cradek: http://www.ecklersoft.com/ 'March 2011, you can now run the rt-stepper dongle with EMC2 software.'
[20:07:16] <alex4nder> it looks like they/he forked, and added support for his hardware.
[20:07:56] <cradek> that's news to me
[20:08:50] <cradek> "This means the rt-stepper software now supports 4-axis ..."
[20:09:01] <cradek> sounds like he only has a subset of EMC2 working
[20:09:37] <cradek> ... which is actually the problem with all these kinds of devices - each device manufacturer has to reimplement things like feed override, spindle sync, homing, etc etc.
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[20:12:01] <alex4nder> cradek: none of them just expose a 'raw' I/O interface similar to the parallel port, just using USB as the transport?
[20:12:48] <alex4nder> i.e. not via outb in userspace
[20:12:57] <skunkworks_> seems like it would be tons better to purchas a mesa 7i43....
[20:13:02] <cradek> we have several options other than the raw parallel port, but none of them use USB because the realtime guarantee is not there
[20:13:15] <cradek> this is explained in the page I pointed you to
[20:13:48] <cradek> yes, for that same $79 you have some great options from mesa
[20:13:49] <alex4nder> cradek: I understand the technical issues, I'm an embedded engineer who does a lot of USB, and realtime Linux. : |
[20:15:02] <cradek> you may know more about it than me then. it is my understanding that sending some output and then reading some status within a part of a millisecond or so is just not possible when USB is in the middle of it
[20:15:49] <cradek> it is sure possible to discard the entire model and do a queue-up-some-motion scheme, which I assume rt-stepper does
[20:16:02] <alex4nder> yup, that's what it seems like.
[20:16:08] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop is da man
[20:16:18] <Tom_itx> seems all those inputs need to be .in_not
[20:16:35] <JT-Shop> Yea!
[20:16:39] <cradek> people in the EMC project seem to think the drawbacks to that suck, and the tradeoff is unnecessary
[20:16:51] <Tom_itx> the pause/resume, coolant flood, and spindle
[20:17:00] <Tom_itx> all seem to work normally now
[20:17:09] <cradek> if you are a manufacturer of one of those kinds of devices, you might sure disagree :-)
[20:17:24] <alex4nder> cradek: or really push the intelligence down to the hardware, and stop doing RT stuff up in Linux.
[20:17:28] <Jymmm> cradek: you're a nvidia guy aren't you?
[20:17:52] <cradek> alex4nder: yes, and I think that has significant drawbacks, and is unnecessary
[20:18:56] <alex4nder> cradek: what do you think the drawbacks are?
[20:19:03] <archivist_emc> alex4nder, if you can understand the synchronous mode in usb AND remove any polling delay from usb you may then have a chance
[20:19:18] <alex_joni> alex4nder: you need to implement lots of emc2 in hardware
[20:19:31] <alex_joni> or remove the bus limitations as archivist_emc said
[20:19:57] <alex_joni> there are things where a tight feedback loop is needed (like for threading)
[20:20:08] <alex4nder> right, that's a major issue if you treat the hardware as though it's stupid.. but you're always going to have USB latency, no matter how good you make it.
[20:20:24] <cradek> unless you don't use USB
[20:20:43] <cradek> which you don't need to
[20:20:59] <alex4nder> or just don't use USB wrong.
[20:21:47] <archivist_emc> I know it has the byte transfer speed BUT the usb poll for device kinda kills it
[20:23:04] <cradek> another thing that happens if you buy rt-stepper is you move a lot of the guts of your motion control system out of the control of the EMC2/free software community AND YOURSELF into a device under the control of eclker software
[20:24:10] <cradek> eckler
[20:25:14] <alex4nder> cradek: right, I'm not specifically interested in rt-stepper, but the concept he implemented is sound.
[20:25:45] <cradek> I don't know anything about his implementation; I can only guess it eliminates HAL in favor of an external queue
[20:26:15] <cradek> (if that's true, he has lost significant functionality of EMC2)
[20:26:47] <alex4nder> or he pushed parts of EMC2 onto the micro
[20:26:58] <ssi> you can make usb behave somewhat like sanely
[20:27:02] <cradek> yes, possibly
[20:27:05] <ssi> just like mach3 can make windows sort of realtimey
[20:27:19] <ssi> but both systems have the issue that when something else comes along and gobbles up resources, you're gonna get a skip
[20:27:24] <ssi> and if that happens during threading
[20:27:24] <archivist_emc> sort of is not good enough
[20:27:25] <alex4nder> ssi: right, but even with iso endpoints, you're still not down in the sub millisecond range.
[20:27:27] <ssi> then you're hosed
[20:27:42] <ries> cradek: indeed, I notice that a lot of this projects do focus trying to control the motors (motion controller) but that's just a part.
[20:28:20] <alex_joni> to each his own
[20:28:29] <cradek> the scheme may work fine for many simple machines with steppers
[20:28:37] <alex_joni> right
[20:28:46] <alex_joni> if it works for someone, their luck
[20:29:23] <ssi> yea but not so much fun when a servo driver is hurtling a 100lb carriage at 1000ipm rapids and USB doesn't get your encoder position back fast enough to avoid the crash :)
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[20:30:02] <FinboySlick> while on the topic of 'something else gobbling up resources'. Did anyone ever implement some sort of monitor (say interrupt monitor) to help give clues as to what might have caused a jitter spike?
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[20:30:44] <FinboySlick> That or a technique/howto using already available tools.
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[20:32:21] <skunkworks_> I think the consensus is you might be better off goofing with rt over eithernet. the round trip times might just be fast enough
[20:32:56] <cradek> yes seems like ethernet might be promising if you don't want to use PCI or parport (or ISA)
[20:33:22] <skunkworks_> or pcie
[20:34:12] <cradek> "For those familiar with EMC2 some functionality was dropped. USB devices are different from parallel port devices. Basically the rt-stepper dongle must be treated as a buffered device in order take advantage of USB bus speed. You cannot control the device one-byte-at-time like a parallel port. This means no continuous joging, homing or probing are supported because it would be too slow. Only incremental joging is supported. For the time being HAL has been
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[20:34:43] <alex4nder> that seems like a pretty big functionality drop.
[20:34:47] <ssi> hah
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[20:35:06] <ssi> <3 mesa
[20:35:07] <ssi> nuff said
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[20:35:24] <cradek> maybe he will finish it ... but he sure has a lot to reimplement in his dongle
[20:35:55] <willburrrr2003> currently my emc feed rate is in inches per min, can I set it to be inches per revolution?
[20:36:22] <ssi> there's a g code for that
[20:36:24] <cradek> willburrrr2003: yes, http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/gcode.html
[20:36:52] <cradek> see 'feed rate mode' section
[20:37:00] <cradek> you need spindle feedback of course
[20:38:37] <willburrrr2003> ok, great thanks for the quick response :) , I'm working on the spindle feedback currently... so once I get that working I will be able to switch to units per rev :)
[20:38:45] <cradek> yep
[20:39:07] <ssi> is it for a mill or lathe?
[20:39:14] <willburrrr2003> mini-lathe
[20:39:25] <ssi> CSS is probably even more useful to you than units/rev
[20:39:30] <ssi> cause it takes diameter into account too
[20:39:40] <willburrrr2003> css?
[20:39:45] <ssi> constant surface speed
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[20:39:52] <cradek> yes css + fpr is a very powerful combination
[20:40:07] <ssi> instead of specifying your spindle speed in RPM, you specify in SFM
[20:40:07] <willburrrr2003> nice, good to know
[20:40:26] <ssi> so you can just dial in SFM and IPR, and nail your feeds and speeds :)
[20:40:50] <ssi> and all that at the low, low cost of spindle feedback :D
[20:40:55] <willburrrr2003> sweet, can't wait to be able to give that a try
[20:41:13] <cradek> you will love how easy it is to part
[20:41:36] <willburrrr2003> parting is what got me on this topic....having parting issues at the moment :(
[20:41:55] <cradek> css+fpr will make parting actually work. you'll be happy.
[20:42:08] <archivist_emc> weedy spindle is a problem for parting too
[20:42:17] <cradek> what is weedy?
[20:42:23] <ssi> non-rigid :)
[20:42:27] <archivist_emc> thin, not stiff
[20:42:29] <cradek> ah
[20:42:40] <ssi> willburrrr2003: what kind of lathe do you have?
[20:42:53] <willburrrr2003> friend told me that to part off my 2.5 alum round stock that I need to run 2500 rpm,, and feed in at 1/2 a thou per revolution and that it should help my cutting
[20:42:55] <cradek> constant surface speed and chip load sure helps, even with that though, I bet
[20:43:12] <willburrrr2003> I have the blue enco 7/12 that harbor frieght used to sell
[20:43:50] <ssi> yea problem is with just fpr, you are moving way too fast across the tool at the outer diameter, and way to slow at the inner
[20:43:55] <ssi> CSS helps with that
[20:44:00] <cradek> IMO your friend is really quite wrong
[20:44:13] <willburrrr2003> have a couple tests tonight to tell me if I need to replace the head bearings with tapered bearings as well
[20:44:51] <ssi> lets see
[20:44:51] <willburrrr2003> Cradek, please explain why, he's a 30 yr professional machinist so I figured it was good advice?
[20:45:02] <ssi> 2.5" @ 2500rpm... that's what, 1650sfm?
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[20:45:32] <cradek> assuming you're using HSS parting tool, you probably want 200 sfm or less
[20:45:48] <willburrrr2003> it is a HSS parting tool
[20:45:51] <ssi> gtn-style carbide insert, mebbe 400
[20:45:54] <cradek> that means like 300 rpm at the outside of your 2.5" workpiece
[20:46:11] <archivist_emc> I prefer a Sandvik carbide parting tool :)
[20:46:11] <cradek> but by the time you get to the center, you want your spindle going as fast as it goes
[20:46:18] <cradek> that's why you need CSS
[20:46:19] <mrsunshine> hmm, making a homemade ballscrew in the lathe? .. possible? :)
[20:46:19] <factor> Does anyone know if hobby lobby has some good mold making material that is cheap and works for gears?
[20:46:36] <mrsunshine> i was thinking dremel round grinding stones, and setting thread pitch to like 3mm :P
[20:46:39] <ssi> mrsunshine: with a round-profile form tool you could do it, but it probably wouldn't be anything like good
[20:46:44] <cradek> that also means you feed MUCH slower at the beginning than the end -- and that's what FPR gives you
[20:46:46] <alex_joni> mrsunshine: anything is possible..
[20:46:50] <mrsunshine> ssi, would be a fun project =)
[20:46:58] <alex_joni> but if it's any good, that's a different question
[20:46:58] <ssi> mrsunshine: it'd cost you more and be less accurate than a $10/foot roton screw
[20:47:11] <mrsunshine> roton ?
[20:47:21] <ssi> ya, roton, the MARKET LEADER IN VALUE BALLSCREWS
[20:47:22] <ssi> or something
[20:47:22] <cradek> ballscrew troughs aren't round
[20:47:23] <ssi> :D
[20:47:31] <ssi> no, they're not round, but they're almost round
[20:47:35] <ssi> they're like double-angular-contact
[20:47:55] <willburrrr2003> ok, until I can part of the new index and ecoder disk ( getting lots of chatter running 1250rpm @ feed rate of .3 IPM ) have not been able to part worth a damn and takes forever to get anywhere with it)
[20:47:58] <ssi> that's half the battle is coming up with the right form tool
[20:48:03] <ssi> not worth the struggle imo
[20:48:16] <factor> http://shop.hobbylobby.com/products/amaco-mix-a-mold-693382/ hobby lobby shows this latex mold making material , dunno if it is any good
[20:48:27] <archivist_emc> willburrrr2003, are you lubricating
[20:48:50] <willburrrr2003> that's a personal question bub ;) yes I am lubricating though hehe
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[20:49:47] <willburrrr2003> If I can get my parting tool to cut right I can re-make my encoder & index disk tonight and be running sweet by this weekend
[20:49:50] <archivist_emc> I dont know your lathe and weight of chuck v spindle rigidity, slow right down and try again
[20:50:34] <archivist_emc> and be uber careful with tool height
[20:51:33] <willburrrr2003> tool height is dead center to my dead center point when chucked up in the 3-jaw
[20:51:53] <archivist_emc> absolute minimum tool overhang too
[20:52:14] <willburrrr2003> was using just enough to get the cut done (about 1")
[20:52:22] <cradek> you don't strictly need the encoder for CSS/FPR, only for threading/tapping
[20:52:44] <cradek> assuming you have approximately decent speed control you can loop it back and it'll be close
[20:53:17] <cradek> fpr is based on velocity feedback, which you can approximate by looping back commanded spindle speed
[20:53:18] <ssi> and part as close to the chuck as possible too
[20:53:22] <willburrrr2003> does my machine have to be able to speed up or slow down the spindle?
[20:53:26] <ssi> yes
[20:53:28] <cradek> threading/tapping is based on position feedback of course - you cannot fake it
[20:53:34] <archivist_emc> chatter is also machine resonance, changing speed can stop resonance
[20:53:48] <ssi> but really, 1250rpm is WAAAAY too fast for the outside of that 2.5" diameter
[20:54:02] <cradek> yes you want more like 300 rpm.
[20:54:36] <cradek> and adjust your feed until you get a nice chip.
[20:54:49] <willburrrr2003> ok, will take that to heart and go with the 300 rpm , and sugested feed rate in IPM (have to until I get the feedback)
[20:54:51] <cradek> but as you get closer to the center, it will stop working well
[20:54:59] <archivist_emc> I love the self act cross slide for parting on the manual lathe
[20:55:11] <willburrrr2003> and do I want a curling to come off the part, or just chips?
[20:55:30] <cradek> depends on the material, but with aluminum and light feed you'll get a long chip
[20:55:32] <willburrrr2003> so close I get into center, faster I need to increase my speed
[20:56:16] <willburrrr2003> RPM not feed
[20:56:22] <archivist_emc> also I widen the gap part way in for chip clearance
[20:56:22] <ssi> ya
[20:56:30] <ssi> I like to peck part
[20:56:31] <cradek> both rpm AND feed will need to increase as you get smaller
[20:56:38] <ssi> I use a peck drilling cycle but in X instead of Z
[20:56:40] <ssi> to clear chips
[20:56:52] <cradek> ssi: neat trick
[20:57:16] <ssi> hax
[20:57:20] <willburrrr2003> ok cool :) , hopefully this will help me out on my parting tonight!
[20:57:31] <willburrrr2003> been a frustrating couple days hehe
[20:57:39] <cradek> you'll get it
[20:57:46] <cradek> and if not, use a band saw
[20:57:59] <willburrrr2003> don't have access to one yet
[20:58:11] <willburrrr2003> do or die parting hehe
[20:58:12] <cradek> hacksaw 2.5" is not fun
[20:58:14] <archivist_emc> or start with sheet for that type of part
[20:58:37] <ssi> I need to give my bandsaw some attention
[20:58:41] <ssi> it's not cutting worth a crap anymore
[20:58:45] <ssi> (it's HF so that's not surprising)
[20:59:12] <ssi> I made my lathe's encoder wheel on my cnc plasma table out of 16ga steel :D
[20:59:14] <willburrrr2003> I was looking at the HF bandsaws the other day, how has yours been for you?
[20:59:23] <ssi> willburrrr2003: when it's cutting good, it's awesome
[20:59:34] <ssi> but you gotta pay attention to the bearing setup, blade condition, etc
[20:59:48] <ssi> I need to buy a proper non-hf blade for it
[21:00:17] <ssi> about 10 years ago I used to work in a cabinet shop, and we had a grizzly vertical bandsaw that was really finicky like this HF horiz saw
[21:00:20] <JT-Shop> I get mine from bandsawbladesdirect.com or something like that Lennox brand
[21:00:34] <ssi> and after I went all through it and adjusted the bearings and put a good blade on it, I was able to get it to cut and track straight like a dream
[21:00:45] <JT-Shop> my old band saw you can't keep the blade guides straigth
[21:01:05] <ssi> I'd love to buy a nice bandsaw, but it's hard to allocate money for it
[21:01:07] <cradek> I always leave .1" extra and machine it off
[21:01:23] <cradek> so I guess I don't care one bit whether it cuts straight :-/
[21:01:24] <JT-Shop> I used to do that with my old bandsaw
[21:01:31] <cradek> I doubt my ability to start it in the right place.
[21:01:32] <ssi> cradek: yea but mine's to the point where cutting 1.5" stainless, it'll wander a quarter inch and then quit cutting entirely
[21:01:41] <cradek> ouch!
[21:01:42] <ssi> yeah
[21:02:05] <cradek> just rotate the work to get the blade straight again :-)
[21:02:11] <cradek> still better than a hacksaw
[21:02:20] <ssi> that's what I've been doing lately
[21:02:23] <ssi> but it's painful :)
[21:02:35] <cradek> yep sounds awful!
[21:02:53] <cradek> I guess it does make two pieces out of one piece, but that's about all you can say for it
[21:03:00] <ssi> yep
[21:03:06] <ssi> but it has cut very nicely in the past
[21:03:10] <ssi> I just need to tweak it
[21:04:06] <ssi> anyway, here's my encoder setup on my g0602 lathe
[21:04:07] <ssi> http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/205204_655375525742_71107655_34534452_5631970_n.jpg
[21:04:21] <ssi> 16ga plasma cut mild sheet
[21:06:33] <cradek> ssi: looks simple and elegant
[21:06:38] <ssi> thanks :)
[21:06:59] <cradek> it's nice that those have enough throat that you can do index that way
[21:07:11] <ssi> yeah, it took a little bit of tweaking
[21:07:44] <ssi> the way I did it was to design the wheel in solidworks, and then I modeled the optos, and positioned them radially around the wheel an equal angle
[21:07:53] <ssi> moved the index one in by a certain amount
[21:08:08] <ssi> then I modeleed the back plate and put holes in the plate where the optos would be
[21:08:27] <ssi> and then when I printed out a drawing of the plate, I was able to plasma cut it out, pick up an edge in the mill, and drill/tap the holes
[21:08:34] <ssi> and magically the optos ended up where I wanted them
[21:08:41] <ssi> I get a pretty good 90 degree phase on the A/B
[21:08:57] <cradek> nice. I would have made it adjustable. not so brave.
[21:09:06] <ssi> they are adjustable
[21:09:08] <ssi> the optos are slotted
[21:09:10] <cradek> ah :-)
[21:09:31] <cradek> wish I would have taken a photo of my mill's spindle encoder setup
[21:09:38] <Tom_itx> if you use css you need limits on your spindle
[21:10:00] <Tom_itx> especially if you're using a drawbar with a long rod
[21:10:16] <cradek> Tom_itx: you can specify max in the gcode
[21:10:42] <cradek> like "200 sfm up to 1500 rpm"
[21:12:03] <cradek> bbl
[21:12:14] <Tom_itx> just something to be aware of
[21:12:23] <Tom_itx> unless you wanna see your lathe hop across the shop
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[21:22:03] <willburrrr2003> SSI thats a very nice encoder setup that you have there
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[21:34:42] <ssi> thanks :)
[21:39:24] <willburrrr2003> setting mine up for index pulse and also 32 pulses for phase A encoder (only have 2 inputs left on my controller board) instead of having slots for my sensors I am drilling little holes in the encoder wheel. Then I am taking an infrared emitter and detector , mounting them in a custom mountin block, with slot in it for wheel mounted on an adjustable bracket. I will make 2 of them, one for the index and one for the phase A pu
[21:39:53] <willburrrr2003> that is if I can get my lathe to part ;) hehe
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[21:51:00] <JT-Shop> willburrrr2003: do you have a compound slide?
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[21:54:50] <willburrrr2003> Jt-Shop, I removed it and modded tool post so I could turn 4" roundstock
[21:56:35] <JT-Shop> ok, anything loose will drive you nuts parting off...
[21:56:51] <JT-Shop> on my manual I lock it down to part off and it helps
[21:57:08] <willburrrr2003> believe me I am learning all about that ;)
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[21:58:48] <willburrrr2003> This is my lathe in it's current condition http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3004/5826970045_e589887ab7_z.jpg
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[22:06:06] <willburrrr2003> The more I learn about EMC, using it and setting it up , the cooler this lathe has become ;) Hell I am starting into building model running engines with it :D
[22:06:21] <JT-Shop> neat
[22:07:17] <willburrrr2003> Buddy tried to get me into Mach3, and while it's nice in it's own right...I Love EMC and the flexibility/power enherent in it's design
[22:09:25] <JT-Shop> and you can thread with EMC :)
[22:10:27] <willburrrr2003> JT-Shop..... I can ALMOST thread ;) Will be able to once I finish making this encoder and get it installed/working
[22:11:13] <JT-Shop> yep, the first time I rigid threaded I was a bit nervous but got over that soon
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[22:13:07] <willburrrr2003> don't think I can do rigid, don't have spindle speed and direction control yet
[22:13:35] <JT-Shop> one step at a time :)
[22:15:09] <willburrrr2003> yup, thats the way beed doing since beginning of the conversion process and look where I am now :D
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[22:37:01] <JT-Shop> skunkworks: last chance... how long about to cut
[22:39:43] <willburrrr2003> of to work in the shop, office work done for the day. Will let you guys know how the parting goes tonight, thanks again for the advice!
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[22:43:48] <andypugh> Did I miss a question on parting? Pity, I could do with some answers.
[22:44:47] <JT-Shop> LOL
[22:45:26] <andypugh> Actually, my lathe managed to part a 4" stainless bar when it was new. So I suspect that head bearings are important.
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[22:47:37] <JT-Shop> everything is important when parting off I've found
[22:49:49] <andypugh> On the face of it, this doesn't look like 3 full evening's work.
[22:49:52] <andypugh> https://picasaweb.google.com/bodgesoc/Gibbs?pli=1&gsessionid=ZSQI-1m-jV_TvOarG4NYRw#5618582360379872482
[22:52:01] <JT-Shop> looking good Andy
[22:52:10] <andypugh> Looking finished :-)
[22:52:38] <JT-Shop> :)
[22:53:52] <andypugh> Does anyone know where one can buy spiral spring leadscrew covers from? Preferably cheaply, and with a less than 4 week leadtime.
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[23:50:21] <Tom_itx> andypugh, on the cheap get some automotive duct
[23:50:27] <Tom_itx> those look nice btw
[23:51:14] <Tom_itx> or some type of thin vacuum tubing
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