#emc | Logs for 2011-05-17

[00:00:03] <Tom_L> differential works as well
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[00:02:23] <Tom_L> counts in quadrature
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[00:06:16] <JT-Shop> Tom_L> in hal configuration, you can't see values update right?
[00:06:28] <JT-Shop> in the watch window of Show Hal Configuration
[00:07:07] <Tom_L> oh
[00:07:22] <Tom_L> even better
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[00:08:09] <JT-Shop> yea, you can "watch" pins, signals etc there
[00:08:32] <Tom_L> yeah i was hoping for multiple signals
[00:14:19] -!- pfred1 [pfred1!~pfred1@unaffiliated/pfred1] has joined #emc
[00:17:59] <JT-Shop> http://tomwade.me/tw/ts/ww2p/
[00:20:14] <Jymmm> ve7it:
[00:23:12] <Jymmm> ve7it: cq cq cq dx
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[00:27:55] <ds3> dx hehe
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[00:37:01] <Gensor> who is youtube " blyndpew"
[00:37:19] <PCW> Andy Pugh
[00:37:43] <Gensor> hmmm one big circle
[00:38:44] <Gensor> pcw: Maybe next week on the power supply?
[00:40:10] <PCW> Yeah deep in FPGA stuff now, I will put something up around Wednesday
[00:41:41] <Gensor> PCW: do what you gotta do... 510 motherboard and components showed up today and am several weeks out before I will have itchy fingers to spend.
[00:43:06] <Gensor> PCW: do you recommend a 2 channel or 4 channel oscope for servo calibration
[00:43:48] <PCW> I reccomend HALScope
[00:47:18] <Gensor> oh my.... another pandora's box
[00:53:51] <Gensor> PCW: I am assuming once I get everything hooked up correctly and running I can run HALScope
[00:54:49] <AC-130U> ok, i know i asked about bridgeports in the recent past... but would i also be wise to have a lathe in my shop?
[00:55:33] <pfred1> I always felt lathes were the more universal tool because they can sort of mill too
[00:56:13] <AC-130U> yeah but they cant exactly mill out shapes that are not circles or ellipses ;)
[00:57:18] <pfred1> oh no?
[00:58:21] <pfred1> you chuck a cutter and put the work on the cross slide
[00:59:09] <AC-130U> henh?
[00:59:26] <pfred1> AC-130U what are yo udim?
[00:59:39] <pfred1> AC-130U do you know what a tool cutter is?
[00:59:57] <Gensor> be nice
[01:00:09] <AC-130U> kinda... but the cross slide, im not sure about
[01:00:12] <pfred1> Gensor I have a very loth threshold for stupidity
[01:00:31] <Gensor> if you dont know... you dont know
[01:00:39] <AC-130U> do you also have a loth threshold for people who just do not know?
[01:01:02] <pfred1> AC-130U yes
[01:01:19] <AC-130U> bah
[01:01:34] <AC-130U> then youre not willing to teach those who want to get into the trade.
[01:02:04] <Gensor> the cross slide on a lathe is similar to an X-axis on a vertical mill.
[01:02:05] <pfred1> AC-130U suffice to say lathes are a bit more versatile than you give them credit for being
[01:02:58] <ds3> I mill on a lathe!
[01:03:02] <pfred1> CNC lathes with live tooling do a lot of milling operations today
[01:03:06] <Gensor> the cross slide moving toward the head stock is the z-axis (please note I have not run one either))
[01:03:15] <AC-130U> pfred: because i _havent_ used a lathe for such... have only used a woodworking lathe in the traditional sense
[01:03:36] <AC-130U> so, EX-CUUUUUSEEEE ME! for being a stupid fuck.
[01:03:38] <pfred1> AC-130U well metal working lathes are a bit more involved lets say
[01:03:40] <AC-130U> </heavy sarcasm>
[01:03:48] <ds3> for some of us, a lathe has more Z travel the mill
[01:04:34] <pfred1> AC-130U I'm sorry but I figured anyone contemplating a bridgeport would be a bit more knowledgable about shop machinery
[01:05:01] <AC-130U> pfred: yeah. im contemplating it BECAUSE i want to learn how to machine
[01:05:12] <AC-130U> i also contemplate a lathe, though i am not sure which lathe to get to start on
[01:05:16] <Gensor> somewhere on youtube is a video of a lathe cutting a star shaped hole
[01:05:25] <pfred1> AC-130U then get a lathe it is a more basic tool
[01:05:36] <AC-130U> hm
[01:05:55] <pfred1> lathes can do anything a mill can and they can lathe too
[01:06:37] <Gensor> pfred: do most crost slides move in three directions?
[01:06:49] <pfred1> Gensor no
[01:07:08] <pfred1> though you can easily make an elevator
[01:07:20] <Gensor> if they did I see a safety issue
[01:08:51] <Gensor> I'm with AC-130U, I have some wood lathe background, with some cnc/manual vertical mill background
[01:10:24] <pfred1> CNC lathes are I don't know I think they're the best
[01:10:53] <Gensor> I had a teach, an exceptional machinist that did consulting in the day. He said a lathe could duplicate itself which I still find it hard to believe
[01:11:19] <pfred1> well they can just in a much reduced form
[01:11:30] <AC-130U> kinda hard to duplicate the ways, ya?
[01:11:42] <pfred1> depends how much cross slide you have
[01:11:55] <pfred1> some lathes have elevators built int othem elevators the operators ride in!
[01:12:05] <AC-130U> hahahah
[01:12:13] <AC-130U> so which lathe would i be good to start with?
[01:12:18] <pfred1> biggest lathe I've ever heard of is 4 stories tall
[01:12:27] <pfred1> 40 feet
[01:12:38] <pfred1> I can't remember how long it is
[01:12:43] <ds3> I wonder what would happen if the chuck one of those lathes came loose ;)
[01:12:47] <pfred1> for doing ship drive shafts
[01:13:12] <pfred1> probably lose a few small russian villages
[01:13:42] <ds3> or if someone forgets to remove the chuck key before turning it on ;)
[01:13:53] <Gensor> ouch
[01:13:57] <pfred1> something like that has no chuck key
[01:14:51] <Valen> suprised they are still allowed to make keyed chucks
[01:17:24] <Gensor> AC-130U: I would like to get a clausing lathe, a southbend is also ok for a starter. Your suppose to get the biggest you can afford as a rule of thumb.
[01:18:26] <Gensor> AC: More specifically a Clausing Colchester
[01:18:42] <pfred1> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kr690PID9jY
[01:19:47] <Gensor> makes me want to take a leak
[01:19:59] <pfred1> yeah they are pretty nuts with the milk
[01:20:36] <Gensor> http://cgi.ebay.com/Clausing-Colchester-Metal-Lathe-Machine-L-k-/280658873711?pt=BI_Lathes&hash=item4158928d6f
[01:20:45] <Gensor> check out the cross slide
[01:21:04] <pfred1> phew drop that off the coast to make an artificial reef with
[01:21:30] <Gensor> hehehe
[01:21:51] <Gensor> not all of us can afford to sit in our lathe
[01:21:58] <pfred1> seriously if you're going to CNC a lathe start out with a CNC lathe
[01:22:05] <Tom_itx> no foot brake
[01:22:07] <Gensor> good point
[01:22:27] <pfred1> they do stuff that'd be very difficult for you to replicate on an old manual
[01:22:48] <pfred1> and odds are you will not do it quite as well as they did either
[01:23:20] <Connor> I'm going with a mill.. Why? Because I can do some lathe operations with it as well.
[01:24:01] <Connor> and, it's not hard to add a 4th axis to mills so they can do lathe operations..
[01:24:24] <ds3> but it is easier to thread on a lathe
[01:24:44] <Connor> manually yes.
[01:24:51] <Connor> CNC I don't think it matters.
[01:25:08] <ds3> mills don't tend to have synced spindles
[01:25:20] <ds3> so you are stuck with thread milling
[01:26:01] <pfred1> this is making me dizzy! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvm4yxQYI4s
[01:26:26] <pfred1> don't have that drill bit? No problem!
[01:26:48] <AC-130U> hmmm
[01:26:50] <AC-130U> ok
[01:27:13] <AC-130U> how much do one of those run?
[01:27:15] <pfred1> AC-130U remember lathes can't mill
[01:27:27] <AC-130U> (clausig or southbend)
[01:27:43] <Gensor> whats your budget and do you want cnc
[01:28:01] <AC-130U> not yet on the cnc, and budget would prolly be around 1500ish
[01:28:15] <Gensor> southbend?
[01:28:28] <AC-130U> either brand
[01:28:36] <pfred1> AC-130U how close are you to Detroit?
[01:28:48] <Connor> I went with a Grizzly G0704 Bench top Mill..
[01:28:55] <AC-130U> pfred: bout 1600 miles?
[01:29:07] <Gensor> google "craigslist.org clausing" or "craigslist.org southbend"
[01:29:18] <pfred1> Connor a sieg X3
[01:29:29] <Connor> I didn't like the X3.
[01:29:40] <pfred1> looks the same ot me whats the difference?
[01:30:04] <Connor> Different frame..
[01:30:08] <Connor> different casting..
[01:30:26] <Connor> http://www.grizzly.com/products/Drill-Mill-with-Stand/G0704
[01:30:27] <AC-130U> nothing local on ksl.com, will craigslist
[01:30:28] <Connor> vs
[01:30:29] <Connor> http://www.grizzly.com/products/Mill-Drill/G0463
[01:30:45] <Gensor> AC: remember try to get a big heavy one if you have the room and power source
[01:31:04] <pfred1> that is the key to machines mass = no chatter
[01:31:06] <AC-130U> if i get one with 3ph power i will need a converter
[01:31:30] <AC-130U> yeah, i know that much about machine mass, ive experienced chatter on cheapo tools
[01:31:31] <Valen> VFDs are good anyway
[01:31:32] <AC-130U> hated it
[01:31:46] <Gensor> less like to twist frame, minimize chatter, etc
[01:31:50] <pfred1> now thats a good sized lathe http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6mBMAxT70c&NR=1
[01:32:30] <jdhNC> x3/sx3 has a lot more mass than the G0704/bf20
[01:32:42] <pfred1> AC-130U every machine you have to find its sweet spot to run in
[01:33:10] <Connor> You need to read Hoss's response to the mass thing with regards to the X3 vs the bf20's
[01:33:11] <pfred1> AC-130U though if they are really big it becomes less important
[01:33:43] <Valen> Connor url?
[01:33:50] <Connor> looking..
[01:34:18] <pfred1> Connor I ran this thing called a Milwaukee #3 that you literally walked into it could run a 2 1/2" hogging endmill just plowing through stock and yo ucould balance a nickel on the table
[01:34:25] <Gensor> AC: negociate for misc tooling...
[01:34:25] <jdhNC> Connor: I did... I ordered a G0704 in December
[01:35:00] <Connor> jdhNC: You should be getting it soon.. they're due in the 20th.. :(
[01:35:01] <Connor> :)
[01:35:17] <jdhNC> mine has been 'due in' 4 times so far
[01:35:21] <Connor> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/benchtop_machines/95316-hosss_zx45-13.html#post722027
[01:35:37] <Connor> They had issues... this is for real..
[01:36:19] <Connor> EVERYONE was having issues getting in the BF20's..
[01:36:36] <Connor> including Precision Mathews.
[01:37:59] <Connor> I just got through installing a overhead linear track so I can lift it up and move it to the back of my workspace and set it on the stand... No way to get a engine hoist in the room..
[01:38:26] <Connor> and I'm not going to throw my back out trying to lift it. :)
[01:38:40] <elmo40> why hurt yourself when machines can do the job :)
[01:38:48] <Connor> Damn Straight.
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[01:39:21] <Connor> It's about a 6' U channel used for holding electrical conduit to the wall..
[01:39:42] <Connor> heavy gauge stuff.. I used 2 lags on each side with L brackets..
[01:39:48] <Connor> Should hold for a single use.
[01:40:07] <pfred1> damn this almost looks like it http://images.bidspotter.com/auctions/12259/thumbnails/51-1-7.JPG
[01:40:25] <pfred1> thing looked like the prow of a battleship
[01:41:30] <jdhNC> unistrut?
[01:42:04] <AC-130U> hmmm
[01:42:19] <Connor> jdhNC: Yea.
[01:43:24] <Connor> I'm a little worried it might fold in the middle @ 300+lbs
[01:43:25] <pfred1> this is my cheesy mill http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/1415/anvilspark.jpg
[01:43:29] <Connor> but, I think it'll work
[01:44:02] <jdhNC> it doesn't look that heavy
[01:44:09] <pfred1> it is an RF-32 clone
[01:44:16] <pfred1> my mill is 662 pounds
[01:44:31] <jdhNC> not yours, teh g0704
[01:44:54] <pfred1> that is like heavier than a big block with a trans attached I think
[01:45:19] <pfred1> I think the X3 type are over 330
[01:45:25] <jdhNC> RF's are all round column?
[01:45:30] <pfred1> nope
[01:45:37] <pfred1> the 45 is a knee I think
[01:46:00] <Connor> Can someone explain why the manual says to have 30" clearance on the BACK of this lathe? :)
[01:46:03] <jdhNC> no room for that here... I can squeeze in a the BF20 or an X3
[01:46:04] <pfred1> round column has come in handy for me too many times to wish it was something else
[01:46:10] <Connor> page 15 in the pdf manual
[01:46:17] <Connor> http://cdn0.grizzly.com/manuals/g0704_m.pdf
[01:47:17] <Connor> okay, machine is 265lbs
[01:47:27] <jdhNC> not counting the stand?
[01:47:29] <pfred1> pfft i could carry that
[01:47:32] <Connor> I know my track can handle 184lbs.
[01:47:52] <Connor> correct, no stand, or crate material.
[01:47:56] <pfred1> not saying I'd be smiling doing it but I'd manage
[01:48:07] <jdhNC> I could pick it straight up
[01:48:11] <pfred1> just take off the table
[01:48:15] <Connor> I could break my back.
[01:48:28] <jdhNC> but, only if the stand was short
[01:48:41] <pfred1> honestly when you first get it you're going to have to strip it down to clean it anyways
[01:49:04] <jdhNC> that's my plan
[01:49:09] <pfred1> cosmoline ain't exactly the best wya oil if you know what i mean
[01:49:16] <jdhNC> stand, base, then some help lifting the head
[01:49:35] <Connor> plan is to use a fridge dolly to get it up my driveway.. the use engine hoist (chain style) afixed to my track to pick it up.. and gently swing it through the door.. then raise it up proper height and move it to back wall and lower it on stand.
[01:49:37] <pfred1> BTW best easy to get way oil I've found is chain saw bar lube
[01:49:44] <pfred1> get it and use it
[01:49:45] <Gensor> jdhnc: why the G0704, vs a bigger rongfu
[01:50:01] <jdhNC> space + price
[01:50:07] <Connor> ditto.
[01:50:21] <Gensor> good answer
[01:50:22] <Connor> 704 is nice size for price point.
[01:50:34] <pfred1> my mill can barely do steel
[01:50:42] <pfred1> if yo ureally coax it it does it
[01:50:47] <Connor> I WAS going to get a mini.. but.. 704 too close to price of one... not to go up in size.
[01:50:52] <jdhNC> mainly from watching the hoss videos
[01:50:58] <Gensor> Im holding out for a bridgeport interact if you see one under $2,500
[01:51:09] <Connor> I don't have room for one.
[01:51:17] <Gensor> pls share hoss link
[01:51:21] <Tom_itx> expand
[01:51:27] <pfred1> Gensor I've moved bridgeports they're pretty heavy
[01:51:28] <Connor> That's ALL that the room would have.
[01:51:40] <Connor> Tom_itx: Only if your going to bank roll it. :)
[01:51:47] <pfred1> like 4 big guys with johnson bars we could barely drag it across the floor
[01:52:12] <Tom_itx> i'll bank roll my own toys thank you
[01:52:23] <Connor> :)
[01:52:28] <Gensor> series 1 2000lbs series 2 5000lbs or so
[01:52:53] <pfred1> I don't know it looked like any other bridgeport knee mill to me
[01:52:58] <pfred1> we had dozens
[01:53:14] <pfred1> don't evne know why the hell we were moving that one that day but we did
[01:53:29] <Gensor> i have zero :(
[01:53:36] <pfred1> me too
[01:53:44] <pfred1> that was in a tool and die shop I worked in years ago
[01:54:09] <pfred1> man I wish I was there for the auction when that place closed up
[01:54:13] <pfred1> they had some sweet machines
[01:54:32] <pfred1> I would have loved to have gotten my hands on our cut off bandsaw
[01:54:37] <Gensor> who here lives in mass?
[01:54:46] <AC-130U> im thinking if i used all of a one-car garage the bridgeport would be in the back and the lathe would be along a side
[01:55:13] <AC-130U> and the car would stay outside. :)
[01:55:26] <Gensor> you will need to tip the bridgeport to get in garage... be careful
[01:55:30] <pfred1> I used to be able to get a car into my 2 car garage
[01:56:06] <AC-130U> gensor: flip head upside down, get it in, flip head back upright. IF you have enough headroom.
[01:56:12] <Connor> anyone have any good books or sites for learning basics for machining ?
[01:56:21] <Connor> I've done some lathe work.. not much mill at all..
[01:56:27] <pfred1> Connor there isn't too much to it really
[01:56:42] <AC-130U> im thinking imma go to a few machine shops ask if they would have someone teach me how to machine (mill and lathe)
[01:56:55] <pfred1> Connor one trick is when yo uare doing setups hit stuff with hammers to align it you can't position stuff accurately by hand
[01:56:56] <Connor> Well.. The biggest thing I'm looking for, is what tools to use when.. and speeds for different cutters and material.
[01:57:02] <Valen> AC-130U: eh just read a book and make some chips
[01:57:07] <jdhNC> ac130:I'd try a ocmmunity college
[01:57:10] <pfred1> Connor something i might have never figured out if I wasn't shown
[01:57:15] <Gensor> nobody lives in massachusetts???
[01:57:25] <Connor> yea.. tighten up, tap with brass hammer..
[01:57:30] <Connor> the secure.
[01:57:33] <pfred1> Connor any hammer
[01:57:34] <Connor> err. then secure tightly.
[01:57:41] <Valen> Connor then check again
[01:57:45] <Connor> right.
[01:57:46] <pfred1> well as you tighten it you have to keep on hitting it
[01:57:58] <pfred1> because tigenting it whacks stuff out
[01:58:06] <Connor> I say brass because Dad is gun smith.. can't be hammering on that and dinging stuff up.
[01:58:14] <pfred1> that and know your speed you should be going
[01:58:49] <pfred1> PI X DIA. X RPM / 12 = SFPM
[01:59:00] <pfred1> that is pretty important to know
[01:59:01] <Gensor> good answer
[01:59:25] <pfred1> past that just be clever in your setups
[01:59:31] <Valen> use a rubber mallet if you want to tap softly
[01:59:42] <pfred1> its all in the wrist
[01:59:42] <Connor> I need to order by end mills.. I got a step block set.. and a set of collets.. 1-2-3 blocks on the way.. I need end mills, vice, and parallel bars.
[01:59:55] <Gensor> curt vise
[01:59:58] <Valen> we have a composite head, so no hammers other than rubber for us ;-P
[02:00:06] <pfred1> I have a krap vise
[02:00:24] <pfred1> bought it for $20 at a flea market
[02:00:26] <Connor> Well.. I have a home depot drill press vise...
[02:00:35] <pfred1> Connor they're no good
[02:00:36] <Gensor> yikes
[02:00:43] <pfred1> when you tighten them the heads tilt
[02:00:53] <Connor> Yea. I know.. hence why I said I need a vice. :)
[02:00:59] <pfred1> though if you put a round bar on the movable head yo ucan eliminate it somewhat
[02:01:24] <pfred1> drove me nuts everytime I'd tighten the damned thing the work would cock
[02:01:35] <pfred1> could never make anything square
[02:01:54] <Connor> Yea, your setup is the most important thing.. I know that just from playing with my CNC router..
[02:02:10] <pfred1> here is my krap vise http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/8026/millpic.jpg
[02:02:19] <pfred1> it is a kurt clone
[02:02:24] <Connor> Okay, what about coolant, mist , air, water etc ??
[02:02:53] <pfred1> I use white milk or elumsified oil for cooling
[02:03:02] <pfred1> I guess hte pink stuff is OK too
[02:03:18] <Connor> Oh. anyone look at that PDF and explain to me why they want 30" of clearance on the back?
[02:03:44] <Gensor> gives you room to huge it
[02:04:02] <Connor> huge it? *boggle*
[02:04:15] <Gensor> hug
[02:04:21] <Connor> hug.
[02:04:22] <Connor> okay.
[02:04:22] <pfred1> something i made on my mill http://i.imgur.com/YztV0.jpg
[02:04:50] <pfred1> I got this for $2 at a yard sale http://i.imgur.com/85T2d.jpg
[02:04:54] <pfred1> yeah I was pretty happy
[02:05:09] <pfred1> I made the box myself though
[02:05:38] <pfred1> another milling project http://i.imgur.com/GDLJL.jpg
[02:05:46] <Connor> okay, making good progress on my DIY Pendant! :)
[02:05:54] <Gensor> hmmmm, my newegg package is here!
[02:06:00] <Tom_itx> pics?
[02:06:11] <Connor> Tom_itx: Still on the bread board..
[02:06:17] <Connor> but, the DRO is working great..
[02:06:24] <pfred1> this is why machines are fun to have you can make more tools with them http://i.imgur.com/vylgY.jpg
[02:06:55] <Connor> tools that can make other tools. :)
[02:07:16] <pfred1> Connor oh its all about the tools now i hardly ever do a non tool related project anymore
[02:07:34] <Connor> Tom_itx: Works in mm/inch and relative/machine cooord.
[02:07:54] <pfred1> fixing an adapter for one of my welders http://i.imgur.com/ldx2y.jpg
[02:08:00] <pfred1> tool working on another tool
[02:08:14] <Connor> My CNC and Mill are mostly for my Robot hobby.. but, then, it is it's own hobby.
[02:08:44] <pfred1> Connor Robot hobby huh?
[02:08:49] <Connor> Yea.
[02:08:54] -!- Tom_L [Tom_L!~Tl@unaffiliated/toml/x-013812] has joined #emc
[02:09:00] <Tom_itx> what sort of robots?
[02:09:03] <pfred1> Connor you do like that battlebot stuff?
[02:09:20] <Connor> Argos. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4gAa0mkqPU
[02:10:12] <Tom_itx> mine were smaller
[02:10:19] <pfred1> argos needs some more light
[02:10:45] <Connor> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIfK5JFTftc around 2:13
[02:10:50] <Connor> That's odin..
[02:11:00] <Connor> should be more of him somewhere.
[02:11:18] <pfred1> I don't think my cat would like having one of those around the house
[02:11:33] <pfred1> he doesn't much like the vacuum cleaner
[02:13:03] <Connor> Roomba ?
[02:13:20] <pfred1> this is a project I am still working on I need to change the spindle so I'm making a pattern to cast a new pully for it http://i.imgur.com/M3x9o.jpg
[02:14:11] <pfred1> its all about the tools
[02:15:14] <pfred1> hoover
[02:15:26] <Connor> Oh.
[02:15:29] <pfred1> my cat doesn't like mechanical stuff
[02:15:46] <Connor> My dog hates the big vac.. doesn't care about the Roomba's
[02:15:49] <elmo40> do any?
[02:16:07] <pfred1> I don't know this is my first cat
[02:16:14] <pfred1> I wasn't evne planning on having him
[02:16:28] <pfred1> he just sort of showed up one day though
[02:17:14] <Connor> Okay, So, menu for pendant.
[02:18:06] <Connor> Main Screen.. left Side XYZA, right side, FRO, SRO, JOG, Max Velocity.
[02:18:32] <pfred1> OK time to make my CNC computer crash over hree
[02:18:51] <Connor> I can do around 8 lines I think.. so, that's 4 lines used.. bottom row is used for soft buttons.. Gives more 2 or 3 more lines of info..
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[02:19:06] <Connor> what should I display?.. and what's the most used buttons?
[02:19:40] <Connor> I'l have start/stop/pause and e-stop on their own buttons.. but I have 4 "soft" buttons than can be changed depending on the selection of stuff.
[02:20:12] <Connor> So, Stuff like Vacuum on/off, Home, Home All, touch off.. etc ?
[02:26:17] <pfred1> my CNC project keeps having setbacks
[02:26:41] <pfred1> this was as far as I've ever gotten with it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgbeyNNBZ68
[02:26:55] <pfred1> now it seems I'm not even that far along anymore
[02:28:01] <jdhNC> connor: I assume the 30" is so you can safely walk behind it right before you trip over the cord.
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[02:31:09] <pfred1> yup it crashed out again running latency test with glxgears
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[02:33:00] <pfred1> I have ot make sure it isn't using the accelerated video driver I know I had problems with that in the past
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[03:11:39] <Valen> pfred1: crashed?
[03:11:48] <pfred1> Valen yes
[03:11:56] <Valen> define?
[03:12:15] <pfred1> what part of crash don't you understand?
[03:12:18] <Valen> ie what crashed how
[03:12:34] <pfred1> XIO; fatal error 11
[03:12:37] <Valen> your computer lost a tire and hit a wall at 40kmh?
[03:12:46] <Valen> from glxgears?
[03:13:08] <pfred1> and latency test at the same time just glxgears it is fine
[03:13:12] <pfred1> I ran the machine for hours
[03:13:29] <pfred1> so it is when you add the hal environment that it does it
[03:13:33] <Valen> so you get that error from glx gears itself? what video hardware?
[03:13:43] <pfred1> no X exits
[03:13:49] <pfred1> you get dumped to the terminal
[03:13:56] <Valen> thats a big one
[03:14:00] <pfred1> no shit
[03:14:13] <Valen> what is the video hardware?
[03:14:20] <pfred1> least the whole OS doesn't lock up but its not far from it its a game stopper
[03:14:33] <pfred1> an old ATI card
[03:14:39] <pfred1> rage 128
[03:14:57] <pfred1> but i just use the open source software driver for it
[03:15:12] <pfred1> I know the hardware accelerated gives me fits
[03:15:24] <Valen> I'd give the closed driver a try if you have nothing else to loose
[03:15:34] <pfred1> no i know it doesn't work been there done that
[03:15:46] <Valen> I have found with nvidia at least there is a latency spike when opening an openGL window, but once its opened its fine
[03:16:24] <pfred1> though I haven't turned the machine on in a while I should ru nthe sim see what it does
[03:16:52] <pfred1> but still just latency crashing dong GL gives me a vote of no confidence over here
[03:16:57] <pfred1> doing even
[03:17:14] <Valen> I'd say its some kind of race in the OS drivers
[03:17:30] <Valen> if you put it into VESA mode it'd probably avoid it
[03:17:41] <Valen> the OS drivers are trying to do more and more 3d these days
[03:18:31] <pfred1> well the rest of the erros is something about resource temporarily unavailable on X server 0:0 after blah blah requests
[03:18:56] <Valen> whats the host machine?
[03:18:59] <pfred1> I have to tear through it see whats what
[03:19:09] <pfred1> rephrase the question
[03:19:20] <Valen> cpu ram etc
[03:19:30] <pfred1> whats it matter it used to work
[03:19:52] <pfred1> it is enough CPU and RAm to have done the job in the past
[03:19:54] <Valen> just wondering what the problem is is all
[03:20:13] <pfred1> could be a memory error I should run ram test on it
[03:20:20] <pfred1> or just ubild a kernel
[03:20:30] <pfred1> if it can do that there isn't much of a problem really
[03:20:36] <Valen> i was thinking more that the host could be outpacing the video card when the RTAI stuff is running
[03:23:16] <Valen> if its old old things like power supply caps and motherboard caps fading can cause stability problems
[03:23:36] <pfred1> could be it has been sitting a while
[03:23:51] <Valen> ~5 years or so i start to see it happening
[03:23:56] <pfred1> I'm doing a kernel build on it now if it can do that it should be able to handle rtai
[03:24:36] <pfred1> yeah some junk systems don't last too long this is a corporate model
[03:24:52] <pfred1> put together a tad better than average
[03:25:18] <Valen> seen it there too
[03:25:29] <Valen> especially in dense server stuff
[03:25:30] <pfred1> anything is possible
[03:25:38] <Valen> 1RU computers etc, they run hotter
[03:26:01] <pfred1> I'll let you know in about 45 minutes how the kernel build goes
[03:26:20] <pfred1> that is my benchmark for does a computer work
[03:26:46] <pfred1> if it can build its own kernel it should be able to do anything else you throw at it
[03:27:39] <pfred1> it ran glxgears for 5 hours earlier today as well
[03:27:49] <pfred1> didn't skip a beat doing it
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[03:48:04] <pfred1> whelp kernel built so I can only assume the PC hardware isn't too faulty
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[03:48:24] <pfred1> sure rules out really bad memory problems
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[08:18:04] <The_Ball> Is a synchronous ac induction motor the same as a ac servo motor?
[08:19:22] <archivist> no and a limited extent yes
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[08:26:23] <The_Ball> clear as mud :)
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[08:30:14] <archivist> do not confuse the AC servo you are thinking of and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_motor#Two-phase_AC_servo_motors
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[08:33:34] <The_Ball> No I was thinking of normal induction type 3phase motors vs. synchronous/permanent-magnet 3phase motors
[08:33:35] <archivist> you are probably after the permanent magnet AC motors
[08:34:21] <archivist> which are not a lot different from BLDC
[08:35:23] <The_Ball> I know ac servos are designed for low spinning mass to get the time constant down, but I was wondering if there was any fundamental differences
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[08:44:45] <archivist> yes the permanent magnet armature and driving methods
[08:46:40] <Valen> archivist: i have seen ac induction servos
[08:47:21] <Valen> dunno how good they are though lol
[08:47:34] <archivist> see wiki I pointed at :)
[08:48:08] <archivist> I suppose syncho motors are in that class too
[08:48:10] <Valen> calling them AC and DC at this stage is really more confusing than anything else
[08:48:43] <archivist> yup huge amount of confusion abounds
[08:48:45] <Valen> everything is AC other than a brushed DC motor, and thats just AC via mechanical means
[08:58:53] <The_Ball> So for two induction motors both rated at 2HP, one single phase with a permanent run capacitor, compared to a proper three phase induction motor, will the three phase have more torque resulting?
[08:59:28] <The_Ball> s/resulting/resulting from three magnetic fields/
[09:02:07] <archivist> 2 hp is 2 hp which is a torque at an rpm
[09:04:42] <archivist> so wrong question, there are many aspects to a motor, efficiency, rpm, hp, load characteristics. a 3phase happens to be smaller and drives nicely with a vfd
[09:04:55] <The_Ball> right, but the slip should be less for a three phase, as there is no point where there is 0v over the terminals
[09:05:35] <archivist> slip is nothing to do with voltage on terminals
[09:06:20] <archivist> its the induction process to the armature
[09:07:33] <archivist> a single phase capacitor motor is really a two phase motor
[09:10:00] <The_Ball> ok
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[09:49:44] <Guest700> Hi all, could anyone help me, what is possible problem when I configured all, but nothing moves
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[09:57:33] <archivist> Guest700, some diagnosis required, measure signals, ar enebles set etc
[09:57:47] <archivist> is it switched ot
[09:57:50] <archivist> on
[10:00:18] <archivist> and we dont know what you "nothing" refers to
[10:13:50] <AC-130U> hi, or something
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[10:16:08] <renesis> hi
[10:16:14] <renesis> mill is better than lathe
[10:16:26] <renesis> k i win debate nite
[10:16:51] <archivist> its morning...you lose
[10:17:04] <renesis> no u, sir
[10:17:06] <renesis> u
[10:18:37] <Guest700> archivis, I have no oscilloscope, so I'm unable to check signal on LPT post. But I have some proproitary sogtware, running on windows on the same PC. And it working.
[10:19:12] <Guest700> Could you provide me some steps for diagnostics, to find the issue
[10:19:29] <AC-130U> hey renesis, didnt realize you popped over here
[10:19:30] <renesis> why dont you have an oscilloscope
[10:19:52] <TekniQue> hello
[10:19:57] <TekniQue> if it isn't my old friend renesis
[10:19:59] <renesis> this is the only other channel i idle in on freenode
[10:20:00] <TekniQue> how are you doing
[10:20:14] <renesis> hi
[10:20:20] <renesis> tired
[10:20:43] <TekniQue> same
[10:21:27] <AC-130U> was wondering if i ever get a bp boss series with busted controls, i could upgrade to a gecko drive setup + EMC (the EMC part i can do no problem, its the drives im wondering about)
[10:22:33] <renesis> might be too small
[10:23:38] <AC-130U> hmm... what drive setup would be better?
[10:23:45] <renesis> prob okay tho, w/ like nema34 motors
[10:24:07] <renesis> no fuckin clue
[10:25:13] <AC-130U> hm ok
[10:25:27] <AC-130U> will look on cnczone if/when that time comes
[10:25:43] <Guest700> renesis, because I have no. Not everyone have it %-)
[10:26:17] <renesis> whatever you do for motor coupling, make sure you have manual access to the screws
[10:26:38] <AC-130U> so i can run the machine manual?
[10:26:43] <renesis> either some way to bypass the motor, or a dual shaft motor you can put wheels on
[10:26:46] <renesis> yeah
[10:26:52] <AC-130U> yeah, thats what i wanna do also
[10:26:57] <AC-130U> dunno how that works, yet
[10:27:20] <renesis> i havent had knobs on my taig thing for a long time and sometimes its gets annoying
[10:28:12] <renesis> the cnc conversion at work, kinda like this guy http://www.grainger.com/images/products/enlarged/XL-2AC40.JPG
[10:28:14] <AC-130U> yeah i bet. i realize if i want to get a boss series mill im still gonna want to run the machine manual from time to time
[10:28:28] <renesis> it was done with single shaft nema motors
[10:29:03] <archivist> Guest700, we dont know what you have done so far, how have you set up the lpt port
[10:29:30] <AC-130U> ahh
[10:29:41] <renesis> and some proprietary drive and control shit from http://www.cncmasters.com/
[10:29:55] <renesis> but yeah i dont consider that shit usable
[10:30:16] <renesis> and you cant manually drive the thing
[10:31:09] <renesis> also it doesnt make any sort of alarming sounds when it gets to the end of its travel and crashes into itself
[10:31:18] <renesis> it just stops and the motors sound the same
[10:31:28] <AC-130U> was looking at some gecko drive units and they said they had some that can handle pretty high current, but i dunno if that is high ENOUGH for like a bp cnc conversion or boss series retrofit
[10:31:35] <renesis> and the control software doesnt have soft limits
[10:31:51] <renesis> someone already machined a jagged pocket into the table
[10:32:15] <renesis> i think because they max'd the Z while jogging without realizing
[10:32:41] <AC-130U> hm
[10:32:42] <renesis> has no enclosure either, i basically wrote it up as unsafe, and that no one should be using it
[10:32:53] <renesis> the drive box has serial input
[10:33:09] <renesis> not sure if emc can drive it
[10:34:56] <AC-130U> ah
[10:35:29] <AC-130U> ive seen some 3axis drive cards but am pretty sure they wont hack it for a boss retrofit
[10:35:38] <AC-130U> not enough current draw for the motors
[10:36:10] <Guest700> archivis, I have setted port adress and pin outs as in windows application, and timings regarding controller oscilogramm 500, 500, 2500, 2500 (as default settings), and have tried to jog wia stepper config app
[10:36:15] <Guest700> but nothing happends
[10:36:42] <renesis> ac-130u: i would see what the biggest gecko is right now, look for max current spec, acceptable inductance
[10:38:17] <renesis> then go to http://anaheimautomation.com/products/stepper/stepper-motors.php?tID=75&pt=t&cID=19 or wherever and see kind of motors you can drive
[10:38:55] <AC-130U> most of them are stepper motor control, i know that boss series newer than 6 have servos
[10:39:27] <renesis> i dont think nema23 will be big enough to rapid reliably, mine are like 280oz/in, so you prob want a lot more
[10:39:47] <AC-130U> yeah i think they are like nema34
[10:40:03] <renesis> oh youre not converting something
[10:40:14] <AC-130U> no, a retrofit
[10:40:35] <AC-130U> like newer control system
[10:41:02] <AC-130U> sometimes you can find a bridgeport boss 6 or something for like $1500, just because the control/drive portion is busted
[10:41:04] <renesis> no ones done a gecko/boss thing on cnczone?
[10:41:38] <AC-130U> i know that theres at least a couple on cnczone that did upgrade to EMC, but what drive setup, i forget
[10:42:57] <renesis> yeah id check those out, try and find the servo specs, compare to gecko specs
[10:43:24] <AC-130U> ok cool
[10:43:51] <renesis> maybe it can do it but just not so fast, i dont think those are very big drivers
[10:44:16] <renesis> i want geckos for my mill
[10:44:26] <renesis> and new steppers
[10:48:08] <The_Ball> If you are doing some operations on a square block and you measure the corners and find the block isn't perfectly squared to the table, it it possible to setup the coordinate system to work on an angle?
[10:50:36] <renesis> no just adjust the part =\
[10:50:52] <renesis> or do it in the CAM software
[10:51:31] <AC-130U> is it standard operation to face-mill your part to get one square surface before you do your other operations?
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[11:12:05] <jthornton> depends on the final part
[11:15:18] <jthornton> The_Ball: no, you square the block
[11:17:52] <jthornton> here is a forum member that converted a Boss 5 with G203v drives http://tomwade.me/tw/machinist/nm/
[11:19:56] <AC-130U> oy vey
[11:20:06] <AC-130U> that is a big ass machine (compared to his garage)
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[11:29:44] <jthornton> or a small garage...
[11:31:02] <The_Ball> "It will become the idler motor in my 1 phase to 3 phase converter" that's pretty clever
[11:50:56] <cradek> The_Ball: in emc you can rotate the coordinate system, but most machinists would rather just square the block
[11:51:23] * The_Ball wouldn't claim to be a machinist by far!
[11:52:00] <The_Ball> cradek, is that done by gcodes or non trivial kinematics?
[11:52:24] <cradek> for a square part you'd often just use a vise, which gives you automatic squareness because you squared the vise jaws when you mounted it to the table
[11:52:31] <cradek> The_Ball: see G10
[11:52:50] <jthornton> does lspci -v show the onboard parallel port?
[11:54:32] * jthornton was thinking The_Ball meant that the top of the block was not square to the table and was at an angle
[11:55:44] <The_Ball> ah, no I was watching a youtube clip of a guy using a machining center and "virtually squaring" a block using a wireless probe
[11:55:57] <The_Ball> cradek, thanks
[11:57:04] <cradek> yes you can do that in emc too, if you like. silly for a square part, but maybe useful for a heavy weird casting
[11:58:37] <Tom_itx> jthornton, so apparently the 203v are big enough to drive the boss5 just fine?
[11:59:38] <jthornton> that's what it looks like... they can take up to 80 volts as I recall
[12:00:11] <Tom_itx> i'd be more wondering about the current draw
[12:04:19] <cradek> jthornton: on that guy's plan, page 2: rewiring T2 as single phase will not work. the transformer will melt.
[12:05:21] <Tom_itx> didn't he get a phase inverter?
[12:05:21] <jthornton> yea, I saw that and I think later on he figured that out
[12:09:35] <cradek> ah - a new power supply appears later but he doesn't say why
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[12:09:55] <cradek> he may not have ever understood the problem
[12:10:09] <jthornton> he might not have
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[12:10:49] <jthornton> Tom_itx: the 203v limits the current based on the current limit resistor used
[12:11:06] <Tom_itx> we had to swap a 3phase transformer on a brand new fadal when my bud first started out in his garage
[12:12:11] <Tom_itx> started with a bridgeport tracer and a boss5
[12:20:28] <jdhNC> cnc control software should have a trivial method of setting X and Y planes based on arbitrary points, like setting UCS in autocad.
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[13:22:29] <kb8wmc> good morning to all
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[15:05:34] <syyl> ahoi
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[15:53:00] <willburrrr2003> good morning all, I spent hours lastnight troubleshooting my loss of steps on my x axis..., tried changing my MAXGSTEPGEN_ACCEL as the manual said to, and didn't fix it...Went throught re-calibrating my stepper...still had the los of steps at the beginning of movement. Noticed that after I got it moving once it movd fine from the on...until it sat for 10 secs, then would loose steps again. Thought mabey binding or sticking of
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[15:54:25] <Connor> willburrrr2003: What stepper driver are you using ?
[15:55:38] <willburrrr2003> HobbyCNCPro 4 axis board
[15:56:10] <Connor> oh. I was going to say, that sounds like a issue that some of the Chinese cheap boards have..
[15:56:53] <willburrrr2003> It was a $75 kit
[15:56:55] <cradek> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?HobbyCNC
[15:57:27] <cradek> willburrrr2003: the board is defective and this page says how you can possibly repair it
[15:57:33] <Connor> Yea, I was going to say, that's the idle circuit.
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[16:12:46] <willburrrr2003> A good read Cradek, I will have to check my boards REV # , I am not sure mine is a REV 1 board. My board docs say that the J4 jumper mentioned just disable the idle current reduction, but that the sync works weather the jumper is in or not. Once I switched off the idle current reduction it fixed my issue, motors move great right from the start...and stepconf setting are highest I have had them with no sign of lost steps... in
[16:15:33] <Connor> I have one of those cheap Chinese boards, I disabled the idle circuit, and swapped out the oscillator cap.. major improvements..
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[16:27:36] <Tom_itx> cheap chinese crap
[16:28:50] <willburrrr2003> I noticed a link at te bottom of his wiki pageto another guy with same preoblem running Mach3 software. he used a pinout on parallel port to have the software control the sync and current reduction function. Does EMC have the ability to set a CURRENT HI/LOW pin?
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[16:48:45] <kbarry> Anyone with a link to instructionf for a Z touch plate?
[16:48:56] <kbarry> My buddies keep teling me its about the simpliest addition ever.
[16:49:54] <Loetmichel> *ha!* China has finally delivered! now i can search my 2 full ceramic Ballbearings, some amuminium stock and the 900W Brusless from my last Model and make a new Milling spindle... -> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=11998
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[17:00:47] <Loetmichel> *snicker* the invoice from the Chinese: creative as always... I payed about 89,-$... invoice: 14$
[17:00:48] <Loetmichel> ;-)
[17:01:23] <Loetmichel> (customs in germany is taxfree below 25$ or so)
[17:01:25] <Loetmichel> ;-)
[17:02:37] <Connor> Yea, That's pretty common on 1sy 2sy type orders.
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[17:06:42] <Loetmichel> i dont get it: why do the HK sellers this tax fraud?
[17:06:53] <Loetmichel> i don't ordered them to
[17:07:26] <Loetmichel> and if they get caught at the customs i WILL get my money back (paypal)
[17:09:41] <Connor> because it's ebay, and it's 1sy 2sy, and if they don't they're not "competitive".
[17:09:58] <Connor> You could pay the tax direct if you wanted..
[17:10:18] <Connor> because all the HK guys would do is pass the cost along to you.
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[17:14:50] <Loetmichel> no, i can't
[17:15:24] <Loetmichel> in germany the german import tax is payed by the recipient, not by the sender
[17:15:51] <Connor> Your the recipient ??
[17:16:10] <Loetmichel> so if there were a correct invoice in the packet i would be called/wirtten ti to pay xxEur to get my packet
[17:16:39] <Loetmichel> or get my packet enyway if the customs didnt seen the invoice
[17:17:01] <Loetmichel> yes
[17:17:44] <anonimas1> yes
[17:17:56] <anonimas1> sometimes they just forget and alot of sellers check gift
[17:17:56] <Loetmichel> (i hope thats translated correct, i meant the one who receives the packet)
[17:18:24] <anonimas1> for small stuff that does not matter bor for stuff 500eur + it gets expensive
[17:18:37] <anonimas1> like +150eur in import tax
[17:18:51] <Loetmichel> anonimas1: i beg to differ
[17:18:55] <SadMan> so you're complaining that you didn't have to pay vat+import tax?
[17:19:14] <anonimas1> it's the truth I do export stuff and the customs wants like 30%
[17:19:20] <anonimas1> for the receiver of my goods
[17:19:44] <Loetmichel> you have to pay 19% "einfuhrumsatzsteuer" and a variabe inport tax ranging from 0% to about 25% d4epending on the goods you get
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[17:20:05] <anonimas1> so you pay maximally 44% tax
[17:20:10] anonimas1 is now known as anonimasu
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[17:20:53] <anonimasu> it's a nice way to cripple your nations competitiveness towards other countries
[17:21:00] <Loetmichel> but if the invoice is below 20 Eur jou dont have to pay the VAT and below 120 eur you have to pay the VAT but no Import tax
[17:21:50] <SadMan> i always ask those customs people what value did they add to my package so i have to pay value added tax
[17:21:54] <SadMan> never got an answer
[17:22:28] <Loetmichel> hihi
[17:23:22] <Loetmichel> anonimasu: the 25% tax is only on very few goods as a "prohobitive" tax
[17:23:37] <Loetmichel> to discourage from importing these goods
[17:23:45] <anonimasu> yeah we pay that too here
[17:23:50] <Loetmichel> most good go for 0% or below 5%
[17:23:58] <Loetmichel> goods
[17:23:58] <anonimasu> and also the company that sell stuff gives a extra 25% away to the state
[17:24:03] <jdhNC> to encourage internal sellers to be less competitive?
[17:24:25] <anonimasu> no wonder servo motors are so goddamn expensive
[17:24:31] <anonimasu> and motion control stuff in general
[17:24:55] <Loetmichel> jdhNC: maybe, or to discourage the selling of the goods altogether
[17:27:01] <Loetmichel> shit: now that i have the ER11 i have to buy a new motor for my lathe to turn the spindle housing ;)
[17:34:41] <jdhNC> lucky you
[17:34:46] <jdhNC> other than the tax part
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[17:55:48] <gene75> Hello All!
[17:56:23] <gene75> Got ntp problem, apt-get can't find it to add or remove it
[17:56:41] <Loetmichel> jdhNC: my "Pocketlathe" isnt up for a job this size, and the bigger one i bought lately has a dead Motor
[17:56:56] <Loetmichel> so i am stuck before even started...
[17:57:15] <Loetmichel> <- searchig for a new motor at the moment in Ebay ;-)
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[18:23:08] <gene75> Here is the error that seems to pop up for any pkg-updater or synaptic operation:
[18:23:43] <gene75> and it won't copy paste, damn!
[18:24:16] <gene75> Anyway. something has happened to npt and its not working
[18:25:00] <gene75> I just used synaptic to re-install it, no biscuit though.
[18:26:58] <gene75> I just added a few things to my .ini file, and have installed 2.4 from the buildbot, works well I believe.
[18:28:38] <gene75> Suggestion for my (MSG, problem), can we have a (MSG,cancel|erase) that erases the last message?
[18:33:07] <gene75> I just did a sudo ./ntp restart, and there are no errors reported, so why is apt-get fussing about it?
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[18:56:37] <alex_joni> looks like a reprap: http://www.alibre.com/products/bundle_personal.asp
[18:56:59] <Loetmichel> hmmm
[18:57:09] <Loetmichel> $1499 is bold
[18:57:53] <alex_joni> that's including software CAD/CAM
[18:58:06] <Loetmichel> ok, then...
[18:59:35] <alex_joni> still a bit pricey ;)
[18:59:51] <alex_joni> reprap + heekscad + heekscnc ..
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[19:07:41] <alex_joni> Jymmm: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF3UxP3EaZc
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[19:14:03] <Jymmm> alex_joni: http://www.3onota.com/vdrk/MEDIA/09-06-09/Simian Mobile Disco - I Believe.mp3
[19:14:23] <Aero-Tec> has anyone here used EMC2 to control a reprap type machine?
[19:15:06] <Aero-Tec> or does anyone know where I can go to find out more info?
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[19:15:17] <Jymmm> alex_joni: http://tinyurl.com/3tdqluc
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[19:18:46] <Aero-Tec> sort of dead here
[19:19:24] <Aero-Tec> when do things get hopping here?
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[19:24:42] <anonimasu> does anyone have a clue how to set a proper preload when preloading ballnuts against eachother
[19:24:45] <anonimasu> ?
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[19:42:35] <Guest470> hello
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[19:45:47] <alex_joni> Aero-Tec: there are some links on the reprap wiki
[19:46:05] <Aero-Tec> cool, thanks
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[19:46:25] <alex_joni> I think there are a couple people that use emc2 for reprap
[19:46:37] <alex_joni> Jymmm: yea, but I linked it mostly for the video clip
[19:47:13] <alex_joni> filmed in some shitty romanian village :)
[19:47:33] <Aero-Tec> what is the best control board to use with EMC2?
[19:48:47] <JT-Shop> for?
[19:48:54] <Aero-Tec> when one uses Printer post they are limited
[19:49:46] <Aero-Tec> I was told there was some sort of IO board one get get to connect EMC2 to the CNC
[19:50:20] <Aero-Tec> was just wondering what was the best way to connect EMC2 to the CNC electronics
[19:50:25] <JT-Shop> there are a bunch of them
[19:50:35] <JT-Shop> steppers or servos?
[19:50:56] <Aero-Tec> is there a good bang for the buck one?
[19:51:04] <Aero-Tec> both
[19:51:10] <Aero-Tec> do not need the drivers
[19:51:24] <Aero-Tec> just a IO system
[19:51:28] <JT-Shop> yea there are cheap ones on flea bay
[19:52:01] <JT-Shop> cnc4pc has some decent i/o boards for the parallel port
[19:52:35] <JT-Shop> your questions are too vague to give a specific answer to...
[19:52:36] <Aero-Tec> Mesa Electronics has some controllers
[19:52:51] <JT-Shop> yes, I use the 5i20 for my machines
[19:53:34] <Aero-Tec> not looking for printer port break out boards. looking for the bypass to the printer port
[19:54:06] <JT-Shop> the 5i20 is PCI
[19:54:50] <JT-Shop> and well supported in EMC
[19:54:57] <ssi> and super awesome
[19:55:19] <JT-Shop> ain't that the truth
[19:55:39] <Aero-Tec> $200 per board
[19:55:58] <Aero-Tec> is there a lower cost board?
[19:56:05] <ssi> 7i43 is only $79, but it's EPP
[19:57:12] <JT-Shop> yea you can get cheap boards on flea bay but they are for the parallel port
[19:58:25] <alex_joni> \
[19:58:39] <ssi> 7i43 is plenty capable, and the parallel port isn't really a hinderance
[19:58:47] <ssi> unless of course you don't have a parallel port
[19:58:48] <ssi> :D
[19:58:49] <Aero-Tec> 7i43 looks to be USB
[19:59:00] <alex_joni> it only looks to be
[19:59:02] <cradek> what do you mean by "both / do not need the drivers / just an IO system"
[19:59:03] * JT-Shop wonders why everyone wants a Cadillac but only wants to pay for a Yugo
[19:59:16] <cradek> please just say what you are trying to do
[19:59:27] <JT-Shop> thank you cradek
[20:00:19] <Aero-Tec> I have a CNC mill and lathe running with mach
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[20:00:52] <Aero-Tec> want to get away from mach and also set up rigid tapping
[20:01:31] <mhaberler> cradek: re rs274.. yes, all the remapping code is activated explicitely by ini options, otherwise no way to test with rs274
[20:01:48] <Aero-Tec> also was thinking on setting up EMC2 for a reprap machine, thus the cheap broad ask
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[20:03:00] <Aero-Tec> what other options are there for EMC2 IO?
[20:03:31] <mrsunshine> hmm, how much clamping force is required from a magnetic chuck realy ...
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[20:03:43] <Aero-Tec> also what is the output speed of EMC2?
[20:03:45] <mrsunshine> saw one had made his own with hard drive magnets
[20:04:17] <Aero-Tec> as in step speeds
[20:04:18] <factor> Aero-Tec, From what I saw you can set the speed to your mill
[20:04:28] <factor> nanoseconds is the meter
[20:04:52] <factor> just programming my test build to 5 micro second
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[20:05:36] <Aero-Tec> I heard 40K clock speed for step output
[20:06:35] <Aero-Tec> would that be the limit for say printer port type unit and that it would be higher for a 5i20 board?
[20:06:53] <JT-Shop> the 7i43 can generate steps faster than any stepper can take them
[20:08:25] -!- pjm has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
[20:08:31] <Aero-Tec> so of all the IO boards from Mesa Electronics, the 7i43 would be the cheap choice and the 5i20 would be high end?
[20:08:45] <jdhNC> 5i23?
[20:09:09] <JT-Shop> that the one with a zillion I/O?
[20:10:39] <jdhNC> 72 IO lines
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[20:11:09] <Aero-Tec> my bad
[20:11:15] <jdhNC> and the bigger fpga for whatever that gets you
[20:11:26] <JT-Shop> nothing for us really
[20:11:37] <Aero-Tec> I just found the printer port version I was looking at the USB version
[20:11:47] <JT-Shop> 5i22 is the one with 96 I/O
[20:12:07] <factor> you could build a cache from the printer to your pic chips to cache the input for faster movements, have not gotten that far though
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[20:14:31] <Aero-Tec> so can EMC2 work with 5i20, 5i22 and the 5i23?
[20:14:38] <JT-Shop> yes
[20:15:53] <Aero-Tec> cool
[20:16:16] <Aero-Tec> I am a complete noob for EMC2
[20:16:43] <Aero-Tec> would like to use it for all my CNC control systems
[20:17:15] <Aero-Tec> I have 2 lathes and 2 mills plus a few reprap units I want to setup with it
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[20:19:01] <Aero-Tec> can one setup ridged tapping with the 7i43?
[20:19:42] <Aero-Tec> also what limits is there from using the 7i43 and going to the 5i20
[20:20:11] <awallin> for rigid tapping you need a spindle encoder, a good spindle drive, and a reasonably good z-axis
[20:20:22] <Aero-Tec> just wondering what the extra $$ get me
[20:20:41] <awallin> would go with 5i20 or similar right away...
[20:21:53] <JT-Shop> you get faster communication between EMC and the 5i20 via the PCI buss vs the parallel port and 7i43
[20:23:30] <Aero-Tec> for drivers, would I use a step and direction unit or would I use a H bridge amp?
[20:24:50] <Aero-Tec> would 5i20 do encoder feedback for servos and could one do a closed loop stepper with that board?
[20:25:00] <awallin> both work. H-bdridge is nice in some sense because the PID runs in emc2 and you have complete control over what happens
[20:25:09] <Aero-Tec> better yet where do I go to find out all this info?
[20:25:26] <awallin> closed loop steppers are generally a bad idea. comes up periodically. not sure if anyone has made it work
[20:25:40] <awallin> right here is where the gurus are :)
[20:26:01] <Aero-Tec> did not want to be a PITA
[20:26:59] <awallin> yuo'll get the RTFM if you deserve it :)
[20:27:13] <JT-Shop> LOL
[20:27:15] <awallin> having said that, the manuals are a good start
[20:27:30] <JT-Shop> and cruse the forum
[20:27:36] <JT-Shop> cruise
[20:27:47] <Jymmm> theres a forum?
[20:27:57] <JT-Shop> whew, fixed that typo just in the nick of time
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[20:28:13] * JT-Shop smacks Jymmm with a cold fish stick
[20:28:22] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: I was serious
[20:28:29] <Jymmm> I know there's a mailing list
[20:28:53] <JT-Shop> http://www.linuxcnc.org/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,20/lang,english/
[20:29:15] <JT-Shop> 3k members 10k posts
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[20:30:27] <Jymmm> Oh, that.
[20:30:51] <JT-Shop> don't sound so enthusiastic Jymmm
[20:31:14] <ssi> haha
[20:31:47] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: It's just a personal pref thing on the GUI is all.
[20:31:49] <Aero-Tec> so hardware wise, what is the best way to go for a noob EMC2 guys just getting started?
[20:32:17] <Aero-Tec> 5i20 and step and dir drives?
[20:32:44] <Jymmm> Aero-Tec: Does your wife know you're about to spend wads of cash?
[20:32:55] <JT-Shop> for steppers just start with a breakout board and the parallel port
[20:32:56] <Aero-Tec> what about encoder feed back from spindle.
[20:33:01] <Jymmm> Aero-Tec: and can you get away with it?
[20:33:16] <Aero-Tec> she is good about it
[20:33:44] <JT-Shop> if you want to thread just bite the bullet on the 5i20
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[20:34:05] <Aero-Tec> so what sort of thing would I need a 5i20 for?
[20:34:15] <Jymmm> Aero-Tec: If you have nothing now, expect around $1700 USD by the time you're done.
[20:34:17] <JT-Shop> of course you need to get the encoder back via a 7i33 I think
[20:34:29] <Aero-Tec> so threading is not possible with a printer ports?
[20:34:57] <JT-Shop> yes, you just have to do the math to figure out what encoder to pick
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[20:35:13] <JT-Shop> based on your latency test and your base period
[20:35:30] <Jymmm> Aero-Tec: If you go for the PCI, you'll save a LOT of grief
[20:35:46] <awallin> reading an encoder through the printer-port is possible at roughly the same rate as reliable step generation, which isn't too fast, maube 10 kHz give or take
[20:36:04] <JT-Shop> oh, I'm feeding a freq right into my 5i20 on the plasma...
[20:36:07] <Jymmm> Aero-Tec: Plus you'll got almost double the I/O pins for things like encoders, sensors, etc
[20:36:21] <Jymmm> s/got/get/
[20:36:41] <PCW> Its all possible with parallell port, you just cannot use a high res encoder (which is not needed for threading)
[20:37:07] <Aero-Tec> the latency test, is that for using the printer port or is that a over all test?
[20:37:16] <Jymmm> Plus many systems dont even come with a paraport these days
[20:37:20] <Aero-Tec> I installed EMC2 and ran the test
[20:37:26] <awallin> overall
[20:37:59] <PCW> JT-Shop is right: if you are just starting out, especially with a step motor driven system, a parallel port is a good way
[20:38:18] <Aero-Tec> I have mach running now
[20:38:35] <PCW> Using parallel port?
[20:38:38] <Aero-Tec> yes
[20:38:49] <PCW> well there you go...
[20:38:58] <awallin> by the time you have something useful together in terms of machine, tools, spindle, servos, drives etc the 200$/eur cost of an m5i20 is nothing
[20:39:00] <JT-Shop> toss in a fresh hard drive and load EMC on that and you can't lose
[20:40:18] <JT-Shop> but first boot from the LiveCD and do a latency test for an hour or three
[20:40:22] <Aero-Tec> awallin: true, the amount I have invested is getting high and no sign of slowing down
[20:40:42] <PCW> You may have to add a parallel port if you dont have the free I/O for the encoder
[20:41:09] <awallin> PCW: have you looked at PCIe ? is PCI slowly dying out?
[20:41:10] <Jymmm> I wouldn't do paraport if I ever had a choice, There's no growth potential if you need it. You can also use it for future projects too. Plus if a mobo dies, you'll have to find/get a paraport card
[20:41:34] <ssi> mesa over EPP isn't the same as straight parport
[20:41:38] <JT-Shop> but cost nothing to start with
[20:41:47] <JT-Shop> what is EPP?
[20:41:54] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: paraport
[20:41:57] <PCW> PCI seems OK (since its trivial to bridge PCIE/PCI)
[20:41:58] <ssi> I have a 72ppr spindle encoder attached to my 7i43 and I can count reliably at 3000rpm
[20:41:59] <awallin> enhanced parallel port (?)
[20:43:08] <Jymmm> paraport is legacy, if you have it alrady great. But if you plan on doing anything in the future, why invest in something that's almost non-existant?
[20:43:08] <Aero-Tec> JT-Shop: awallin: yes
[20:43:16] <ssi> PCI is also legacy
[20:43:25] <Jymmm> n
[20:43:26] <Jymmm> o
[20:43:28] <PCW> We have PCIE stuff but its currently expensive (external cabled PCIE) but we will have cheaper PCIE solutions this year
[20:43:45] <Aero-Tec> well in my case it is all setup and running
[20:43:51] <PCW> Everything that exists is legacy
[20:43:56] <awallin> PCW: sounds good. cheap mobos with legacy PCI are becoming hard to find...
[20:44:08] <JT-Shop> does PCIE plug into the funny plug on the motherboard, kinda flat looking thing
[20:44:18] <Jymmm> awallin: where are you looking?
[20:44:39] <PCW> Really? I find it hard to find MBs without PCI
[20:45:02] <awallin> Jymmm: whatever the IT-department feeds us researchers as a shopping list... (i.e. not looking much at all)
[20:45:03] <Jymmm> PCW: exatly
[20:45:19] <PCW> JT-Shop thats probably Mini-PCIE
[20:45:28] <JT-Shop> it says PCI Express x1 Mini Card connector
[20:45:29] <Aero-Tec> so if I can start out with PP and move to 5i20 over time it will help soften the $$$ hit to the pocket
[20:45:34] <ssi> you can still find plenty of boards with PCI, but it's definitely going away
[20:45:38] <awallin> well, OK, but it's more like 3x PCIE slots for sure and 1 or 2 PCI slots maybe
[20:45:55] <JT-Shop> so the 3x20 won't plug into that one?
[20:46:52] <PCW> Not without a cable adapter, but with a simple adapterr its possible
[20:46:58] <Jymmm> here are 28 microATX with PCI slots http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007623+600008721&QksAutoSuggestion=&ShowDeactivatedMark=False&Configurator=&IsNodeId=1&Subcategory=446&description=&Ntk=&CFG=&SpeTabStoreType=&srchInDesc=
[20:47:44] <ssi> I'm sure there are plenty up there with parports too
[20:47:58] <Jymmm> 152 Intel mobos with PCI... http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007627+600008722&QksAutoSuggestion=&ShowDeactivatedMark=False&Configurator=&IsNodeId=1&Subcategory=280&description=&Ntk=&CFG=&SpeTabStoreType=&srchInDesc=
[20:48:06] <ssi> and even some with *gasp* PS/2 ports
[20:48:08] <JT-Shop> that's what is on the D510MO
[20:48:10] <ssi> maybe even a few with game ports
[20:48:41] <JT-Shop> my new asrock has a floppy header :)
[20:48:49] <Jymmm> paraport isn't even an option to search from
[20:49:03] <Jymmm> but may have the header
[20:49:05] <awallin> while we are talking computers, anyone make the splurge and get a 30" screen? mewants the 2560pixels wide.... but at over a grand it hurts...
[20:49:23] <ssi> I have three 27" imacs at 2560x1440
[20:49:23] <Jymmm> awallin: what pixel size?
[20:49:33] <cradek> I'm seeing parallel ports moving off the back ATX area and to dip headers on the pcb
[20:49:52] <awallin> Jymmm: I guess HP or Dell 30" so 2560x1600
[20:49:53] <cradek> just built a new intel based system today that had that setup
[20:50:16] <ssi> cradek: I don't suppose the header matches the pinout for the 7i43, does it?
[20:50:24] <ssi> cause that'd actually be convenient
[20:50:26] <awallin> RS232 moved to dip also, not many have them at the back anymore
[20:50:28] <cradek> I would think it probably does, actually
[20:50:37] <cradek> awallin: yes, this board has one serial port that way too
[20:51:16] <cradek> I have never (in modern times) used a motherboard that had fewer than several pci slots
[20:51:28] <ssi> don't deal with ITX stuff much then, eh?
[20:51:42] <PCW> Lots of brand new MBs with parallel (plus there are PCIE parallel cards)
[20:51:43] <PCW> I doubt PCI will be hard to get in the next 5 years (not like ISA which is hard to bridge)
[20:51:45] <PCW> PCIE basically _is_ PCI with a different PHY
[20:51:50] <ssi> all the ITX stuff I have on hand has 1 PCI slot
[20:51:56] <cradek> nope, all ATX (business machines)
[20:51:57] <ssi> and a lot of the newer ITX stuff has 1 PCIe
[20:53:48] <PCW> Even those MBs can run a PCI card with the right adapter
[20:56:55] <JT-Shop> does a 3x20 need a PCIE x1 slot?
[20:57:50] <ssi> I'm pretty sure that any PCIe slot of sufficient width is downwards-compatible with a card of lesser width
[20:57:56] <anonimasu> anybody have a clue how to set the correct preload on two opposing ballnuts?
[20:57:58] <ssi> ie an x1 card works in an x4 slot
[20:58:01] <ssi> but not vice versa
[20:58:16] <ssi> anonimasu: bellvilles or wave washers between them
[20:58:17] <PCW> Theoretically not since PCIE is supposed to down-shift lanes but lots of BIOS's are broken
[20:58:27] <cradek> anonimasu: you mean the kind with a ground spacer?
[20:58:38] <anonimasu> my lathe seems to not have a spacer at all
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[20:58:58] <anonimasu> it's screwed + locked in place with screws
[20:58:58] <cradek> do you mean two nuts or one nut with two circuits?
[20:59:05] <anonimasu> two nuts
[20:59:12] <anonimasu> the easiturn of mine came that way
[20:59:25] <cradek> are you asking what amount of preload is correct, or how to adjust the preload?
[20:59:35] <anonimasu> hwo to determinate what a good preload is
[20:59:57] <cradek> as a first guess I'd say enough that you measure zero backlash, and no more
[21:00:36] <anonimasu> mhm, I guess grinding a spacer wouldnt be a bad idea for that
[21:00:40] <JT-Shop> and still turns...
[21:01:23] <cradek> yes if you can measure the backlash and can add a spacer, that seems easy
[21:01:59] <anonimasu> tho making a two part spacer and grinding it to size might not be so easy
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[21:05:53] <JT-Shop> how can you get the on board parallel port address in linux?
[21:06:21] <cradek> % dmesg|grep parport
[21:06:25] <cradek> [ 7.305717] parport0: PC-style at 0x378, irq 7 [PCSPP,TRISTATE,EPP]
[21:06:45] <JT-Shop> thanks
[21:14:44] <JT-Shop> I get %: command not found
[21:15:37] <ssi> try without the % :D
[21:15:59] <JT-Shop> I did that second...
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[21:16:39] <JT-Shop> I did a dmesg and can see parport... wonder if I spelled it wrong
[21:17:08] <JT-Shop> ROFLMAO
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[21:47:12] <bzzzz> has anyone tried this guy's pcb mill? http://www.pcbmill.com looks cheap and quick
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[21:50:50] <JT-Shop> someone here gave me this link http://dorkbotpdx.org/wiki/pcb_order
[21:52:46] <bzzzz> JT-Shop: thanks, lemme take a peek
[21:53:26] <bzzzz> hey, that one's just like batchpcb
[22:07:58] <Jymmm> VERY COOL... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH6xCT2aTSo
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[22:16:44] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, you gonna use it?
[22:17:13] <Tom_itx> they just started a new pannel
[22:20:42] <JT-Shop> Tom_itx: I don't have the need ATM but it sure looks easier than rolling your own with a router :)
[22:23:03] <Tom_itx> i've used them several times
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[22:30:54] <skunkworks> who am I?
[22:32:54] <Jymmm> skunkworks: You are woman, and we hear you roar!
[22:33:23] <skunkworks> rrroouwww
[22:33:40] <skunkworks> purrrrrrrr - hsssss
[22:33:42] <skunkworks> oops
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[23:07:44] * JT-Shop checks the channel name... yep it is #emc
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[23:15:13] <Aero-Tec> I guess there is no videos one can watch to get a good feel for EMC2
[23:15:35] <Aero-Tec> like HAL and other parts of EMC2
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[23:16:34] <Aero-Tec> a quick over view of settings, how things work and how things inter connect
[23:17:34] <Aero-Tec> how one can setup a slave spindle that is synced with the main one so you turn main and the slave turns
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[23:18:54] <elmo40> Aero-Tec: try this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVg1sGxmfTk
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[23:19:21] <elmo40> 13 minutes.
[23:23:42] <pfred1> time to dump core here
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[23:27:15] <pfred1> this shouldn't take too long
[23:28:42] * elmo40 hands a can opener to pfred1
[23:29:20] <pfred1> though i am trying something a bit different tonight I'm sudo to root in X and running the apps
[23:30:56] <AC-130U> how does emc compare to windows based cnc control?
[23:31:19] <JT-Shop> winblows is unreliable for real time applications
[23:31:20] <ssi> it's tougher to setup but much more flexible
[23:31:36] <AC-130U> so windows != realtime capable?
[23:31:44] <ssi> correct
[23:31:48] <pfred1> windows is more flexible?
[23:32:01] <ssi> no, emc is more flexible
[23:32:26] <pfred1> well emc isn't exactly an OS it is just an application
[23:32:42] <ssi> ys
[23:32:47] <AC-130U> and you run it on any form of linux that is realtime capable?
[23:32:47] <ssi> as is "windows based cnc control"
[23:32:49] <ssi> do try to keep up
[23:32:54] <pfred1> well an app with some kernel extensions too
[23:33:16] <AC-130U> (kinda wonder if it is compilable for solaris, but doubtful... solaris i dont think is realtime capable either unless you hack on it extensively)
[23:33:19] <pfred1> do try to explain yoruself a bit better
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[23:34:09] <pfred1> mainstream linux kernel has some realtime stuff in it today but not rtai which emc needs
[23:34:34] <pfred1> linus has said some pretty funny htings on the topic
[23:34:36] * ssi goes back to not being helpful, which is apparently much easier
[23:34:58] <JT-Shop> Aero-Tec: you could just take a look at one of the sims...
[23:35:05] <pfred1> damn my other box hasn't crashed yet
[23:35:24] <pfred1> it was going down inside of 2 minutes last night
[23:35:59] <pfred1> whoop I spoke too soon :)
[23:36:34] <Aero-Tec> JT-Shop: where do I find the sims?
[23:37:24] <JT-Shop> load the liveCD then run EMC
[23:37:33] <pfred1> strange I don't see a core file
[23:39:07] <AC-130U> hmm, so if i wanted to make a linux kernel rtai how would i do so?
[23:39:29] <pfred1> maybe linux does not consider this a program crash?
[23:39:52] <pfred1> AC-130U there are so so directions on linuxcnc.net
[23:40:03] <JT-Shop> AC-130U: that is quite hard to do and a huge time sink
[23:40:21] <pfred1> JT-Shop its not that hard it only took me about a day
[23:40:36] <pfred1> though you won't get anything out of it really
[23:41:01] <JT-Shop> Your good
[23:41:23] <Tom_itx> and ppl gripe about windoz
[23:41:24] <pfred1> lets just say I've had a little previous Linux experience
[23:41:34] <pfred1> since 1995
[23:41:54] <AC-130U> hmm
[23:42:02] <AC-130U> i have more solaris and *bsd experience than linux
[23:42:13] <Tom_itx> is tool touchoff just a normal gpio or does it have special functions associated with it?
[23:42:14] <pfred1> AC-130U sorry to hear that
[23:42:20] <pfred1> I've run sloarse
[23:42:24] <Tom_itx> looks like something worth making
[23:42:39] <pfred1> just about ran away doing it too
[23:43:06] <PCW> Probe is just GPIO
[23:43:10] <JT-Shop> Tom_itx: you hook it to probe input
[23:43:16] <Tom_itx> wonder if it would work to mod one of the commercial blinky height tools and get the accuracy already made
[23:44:07] <Tom_itx> i know i could have read about it but i've been sitting here on hold listening to elevator music and i'm goin nuts
[23:44:27] <AC-130U> yeah... solaris is not an ideal desktop OS, though i've used it for that for long enough to save up and build a new doze bsed pc
[23:44:31] <AC-130U> based*
[23:44:56] <pfred1> AC-130U I remember playing a mud that ran on it when they finally switched to redhat it got a lot more stable
[23:45:13] <pfred1> though it might have been the sysops habit of messing with the scsi drivers
[23:45:24] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, status report on the shop?
[23:45:28] <Tom_itx> insul done
[23:45:33] <Tom_itx> door hung?
[23:45:37] <AC-130U> heh, i bet
[23:45:51] <JT-Shop> itch done, working on the interior walls, 1 down 2 to go
[23:45:57] <AC-130U> since i was the sysadmin of the solaris box i ran (my home box), it was damned stable
[23:46:00] <JT-Shop> it won't be in till this weekend
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[23:50:09] <Aero-Tec> then EMC2 has a slave spindle slaved to the main spindle so when you turn the main the slave one turns in sync, can EMC2 detect the direction of rotation and keep it all in sync?
[23:50:20] <Aero-Tec> I was told it could not
[23:50:21] <JT-Shop> the door should arrive Sunday actually
[23:50:29] <Aero-Tec> was wondering if that was ture
[23:52:32] <pfred1> I'm starting to think this is just a problem with glxgears