#emc | Logs for 2011-04-19

[00:02:53] <JT-Shop> Jymmm: that is crap!
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[00:08:36] <Gensor> anyone up on Sanyo encoders: Incre. 2000P/R, Absol. 2048 divisions, ABS-RII 8192 divisions
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[00:24:31] <JT-Shop> say goodnight Gracie
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[00:40:37] <Jymmm> jthornton: bull, it's some good shit
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[00:41:45] <Jymmm> jthornton: best with some serious subwoofers
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[00:55:33] <Gensor> anyone using panasonic mum servos?
[00:56:34] <elmo40> I wish I had servos ;)
[00:57:37] <Gensor> Im trying... but am a little aprehensive about getting some with an encoder that will function with emc
[00:57:56] <elmo40> only incremental encoders.
[00:58:08] <elmo40> what cards do you have to interface with emc?
[00:58:22] <Gensor> http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Panasonic-AC-SERVO-MOTOR-MODEL-MUMS081A1E0S-/200589829129?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb415e409
[00:58:53] <Gensor> mesa eventually
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[02:49:29] <KimK> Gensor: If you're going to use Mesa cards you'll have a hard time finding an encoder that *won't* work. Have you tracked down a data sheet? I'll be curious to learn what the R, !R signals are.
[02:51:13] <Gensor> the datasheet says incremental for that panasonic
[02:51:42] <KimK> But what do the R, !R signals do?
[02:51:53] <Gensor> however I saw several sanyos with various encoders with up to 8000 lines. I made an offer on some with incremental...
[02:52:19] <Gensor> incrementals on both were around 2500
[02:52:54] <KimK> I'd be surprised if it was really 8000 lines. I'd expect 8000 quadrature counts.
[02:52:56] <Gensor> did I make an incorrect assement
[02:53:58] <KimK> I have used 2500 line (10,000 quadrature count) encoders with Mesa cards. Works nicely.
[02:54:25] <Gensor> A... Wiring-saved incremental encoder (INC-E) or request
[02:54:25] <Gensor> signal-unavailable absolute encoder (ABS-E)
[02:54:25] <Gensor> H... Request signal-available absolute sensor (ABS-RII)
[02:54:25] <Gensor> P… Wiring-saved absolute sensor (ABS-E.S1)
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[02:55:38] <Gensor> That is a sanyo encoder with 4 options, and assumed from the plethra of correspondance here that the first was the only viable option
[02:57:13] <Gensor> crap.... to many datasheets... see below
[02:57:15] <Gensor> 1... Wiring-saved incremental encoder (2000P/R)
[02:57:15] <Gensor> 2... Wiring-saved incremental encoder (6000P/R)
[02:57:16] <Gensor> 3... Request signal-unavailable absolute encoder (ABS-E, 2048P/R)
[02:57:16] <Gensor> 6... Request signal-available absolute encoder (ABS-RII, 8192P/R)
[02:57:16] <Gensor> W…Wiring-saved absolute sensor (ABS-E.S1, 32768 dividing)
[02:58:06] <KimK> Sounds right, do you have a link to the Sanyo data sheet(s)? And I'd also like to see that Panasonic data sheet to understand those R, !R signals, if you have it.
[03:01:23] <Gensor> can you accept that download?
[03:01:25] <KimK> What happened? Please try again.
[03:01:54] <KimK> Maybe I wasn't fast enough, I was looking away.
[03:03:10] <KimK> OK, once more, third time's the charm?
[03:04:27] <Gensor> http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENUS300&=&q=minas_s_e.pdf&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=
[03:05:21] <KimK> OK, thanks, I have it. Give me just a minute...
[03:05:26] <Gensor> http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENUS300&=&q=minas_s_e.pdf&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=#sclient=psy&hl=en&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENUS300&source=hp&q=M0001584J(PY2)-E.pdf&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=f441d7c040dfef71
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[03:14:06] <Gensor> I hope you have more than a 300 baud modem....
[03:15:20] <KimK> The Panasonic unit looks like a nice high-quality servo motor & drive, but unfortunately it has step/dir inputs (which they call "pulse/sign"), so I would avoid it if it was me. The Sanyo just came in, I'll go look at it, brb...
[03:28:36] <elmo401> Gensor: me? some days it doesn't seem like it... I have torrents going and my cable modem craps out. they throttle traffic. it sucks. especially for my VoIP.
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[03:31:48] <Gensor> hats off to you torrent master... may I suggest a a VPN to the netherlands with encryption
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[03:41:30] <KimK> Whew! That was a long one. The Sanyo is able to run in 3 modes: a variant of step/dir ("fwd/rev"), analog velocity, and analog torque, so that's a good thing. I'm not sure why they have such a plethora of different encoder types "between" the motor and drive, but fortunately the drive has encoder follower outputs, so all your connecting to EMC problems go away. I'd like to know more about the tradeoffs in encoder choices, but that might take a chat w
[03:41:30] <KimK> ith the Sanyo rep.
[03:42:11] <KimK> Oops, flooding, sorry,
[03:43:17] <Gensor> hmmmm.... I have some conserns given your feedback.
[03:43:55] <Gensor> Im told emc2.5 will support most ac servos, and I was going to use a mesa server driver/amp
[03:44:37] <KimK> Oh, you were just going to buy the motors without the drives?
[03:44:55] <Gensor> correct
[03:45:40] <Gensor> 8i20 or similar
[03:45:48] <KimK> So isn't this some kind of overstock or available stock deal? You don't get to pick the encoder type do you?
[03:46:15] <KimK> Or were yo going to take the motor as is, and buy encoders too?
[03:46:17] <Gensor> you are making me nervous
[03:46:27] <KimK> s/yo/you/
[03:46:32] <KimK> I am?
[03:47:24] <Gensor> these servos have two cables coming off of them, I assumed a cable to drive the motor and a cable to tie into the encoder, both types of servos have a serial number that indicates the encoder attached
[03:47:45] <KimK> I only meant to point out that if you take the motor and drive as a pair, the goofy encoder and goofy encoder-reader cancel each other out. And the drive has encoder follower outputs, so no problem.
[03:48:58] <Gensor> ok.... so, hopefully my purchase will work with emc and possible the mesa driver
[03:55:30] <KimK> Well, I'm guessing a little here, but since there doesn't seem to be any hall effect devices, the drive has to have some kind of absolute position encoder in order to know how to commutate immediately on power-up, or, you have to accept some "fish flopping" while it figures things out on power up (this is often not acceptable in many applications, hence the absolute encoders or resolvers).
[03:55:46] <Gensor> Time will tell regarding my efforts. One servo was 100v 8ish amps, the other was 200v and 3amps. I thought the later would be easier to supply power to
[03:57:42] <KimK> Yes, I was going to ask about power ratings too. These are rated at 400W, what, peak? average? Will they be adequate for your needs? What will they drive?
[03:57:59] <Gensor> the preference is a hall sensor? that is independant of incremental? Im trying to understand the key words I need to find to shop for the correct servo
[03:59:04] <Gensor> this is a test run for me, but plan to buy a machine with servos already on it.... power supply operational.
[04:01:51] <KimK> Well, the drive needs to know the orientation of the magnet on the motor shaft so it can decide how to operate the motor drivers. It can get this via hall effect devices (seperately from any encoder device), or it can be given information from any installed encoder or resolver device.
[04:04:07] <KimK> This is why motors and drive are often sold as a set, just to ease compatibilty problems. But it is possible to make a "fits-all motor driver" and a "fits-all motor" if that's the goal.
[04:04:54] <KimK> What's your machine?
[04:05:52] <KimK> And no, hall effect sensors are not necessarily preferred, they're just one of several ways to solve that particular problem.
[04:06:02] <Gensor> I am shopping for a a bridgeport interact with bad controller
[04:06:46] <Gensor> please search the sany datasheet "7. Type of detector" and identify acceptable encoders for mesa
[04:07:36] <KimK> Oh, OK, sure. Like Igor's, perhaps? And a friend of mine has a BP 2aNC.
[04:07:51] <Gensor> yes...
[04:09:05] <KimK> Under "7. Explanation of Parameters" (page v)?
[04:09:47] <Gensor> "7. Type of detector" page 1-6
[04:14:59] <KimK> Ha, I don't like any of them, lol! I don't like "S: wiring-saved (serial?) incremental encoder" because it's still incremental and that's a bad place for one. I don't like "N" or "V" because they are some kind of "absolute"(?) encoder which apparently requires a supercap or a backup battery of some kind. What is it really, incremental? So back to problem 1.
[04:16:12] <KimK> That leaves "J" and "A", which if we assume they are really absolute encoders, that's great for the Sanyo drive, but problematic for EMC2 (EMC2 without the Sanyo drive, I mean). So where does that leave us? Mount a resolver?
[04:16:21] <Gensor> It appears the servo manufacturers do not want people to understand a lot about their products
[04:17:02] <Gensor> that sounds expensive
[04:17:52] <KimK> Yes, motors and drives have a lot in common with car racing, etc. "Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?"
[04:18:28] <Gensor> with incremental, you are indicating there will be 50 plus steps in either direction before it can determine which way it is turning?
[04:19:21] <Gensor> on power up?
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[04:20:44] <KimK> Could be as many as 7999 counts with your previously mentioned encoder (.9999 of a rotation) before it figures out where it is. And if the drive doesn't know, the motor could be "flopping about" in both directions, until it stumbles across the index?
[04:21:29] <Gensor> I have a warm feeling about this.... not
[04:21:38] <KimK> Now this would be with an incremental encoder only.
[04:22:36] <Gensor> that said, could you recommend an ideal servo/encoder to work with mesa as an ideal setup?
[04:23:35] <Gensor> sorry, its late and I am getting redundant
[04:23:47] <KimK> One OK combo would be: incremental + some lesser device (hall effect, 3 or 4 bit absolute encoder, "magnetic doodad", others?)
[04:24:53] <KimK> Another would be an absolute encoder or resolver, Mesa is not quite ready for that yet but it will come eventually.
[04:25:36] <KimK> I don't mean to keep you up, hope that helped?
[04:25:49] <Gensor> kimk, I thank you for bringing sanity to my research effort
[04:26:40] <KimK> No problem. Anything to help someone avoid those "step and direction servos(??)", lol!
[04:26:41] <Gensor> so... you are a programmer
[04:28:40] <KimK> Ha, I am trying to learn. I'm more of an electronics engineer, automation, integrator, CNC retrofits, etc. Some other stuff too.
[04:29:00] <Jymmm> ...PITA
[04:29:10] <ds3> Mmmmm flat bread
[04:29:25] <KimK> I have done programming in the past, now trying to learn enough to help develop EMC2.
[04:29:33] <Jymmm> s/flat bread/hemeroid/
[04:30:39] <KimK> Gensor: What country are you in?
[04:30:43] <Gensor> I didnt know we were surround by a whole bunch of flat bread
[04:31:00] <Gensor> south dakota us
[04:31:53] * Jymmm punches KimK in the arm
[04:32:10] <KimK> Gensor: Ah, OK. Hi neighbor. I'm in Omaha. Generally, anyway.
[04:32:15] <Gensor> and the rest of you?
[04:32:29] <Jymmm> Twilight Zone
[04:32:31] * KimK says "Ow!" and rubs his arm
[04:32:49] * ds3 puts a punch press on KimK's arm
[04:32:49] <ds3> ;)
[04:33:12] * KimK pulls back a stump?
[04:33:15] <Jymmm> ds3: <---- geek
[04:33:22] <Gensor> omg
[04:33:41] * KimK pushes "reset"
[04:33:50] <KimK> Whew! That was close.
[04:34:00] <Jymmm> RESET MALFUNCTION....
[04:34:16] <KimK> Jymmm: Pffffft!
[04:34:31] <Jymmm> ...57
[04:34:34] <Jymmm> ...56
[04:34:46] <KimK> xyzzy?
[04:34:55] <Jymmm> ...43
[04:35:12] <KimK> up down up down left right left right A B A B?
[04:35:32] <Jymmm> ...5
[04:35:34] <Jymmm> ...4
[04:35:37] <Jymmm> ...2
[04:35:38] <Gensor> lets not talk about what you did last night
[04:37:05] <Gensor> thanks for the good humor, however time for me to shut down. Enjoy!
[04:37:19] <KimK> Bye, check back anytime
[04:51:05] <Jymmm> KimK: whats goin on?
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[04:53:06] <KimK> Jymmm: Oh, not much, working on hooking up a little simulator for a friend's machine. Just a few little test inputs and outputs. You?
[04:54:36] <Jymmm> KimK: Now that the IRS monkeys are off my back, trying to get back into creating some more designs for a couple of products I'm working on
[04:56:47] <KimK> Jymmm: Excellent, what field or area will your new products be in?
[04:57:17] <Jymmm> KimK: illuminaries
[04:58:08] <KimK> Great, we can always use more light on the subject (OK, that was bad)
[04:58:24] <Jymmm> Heh, well not THAT bad =)
[05:01:42] <KimK> I thought I saw something about how Calif. proposed to get what, 30%?, 1/3? of their electricity from solar/wind by (too soon?). That should be entertaining.
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[05:13:17] <Jymmm> KimK: I guess it's possible, but you dont know if it's trucked in from New Mexico =)
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[07:07:58] <mrsunshine> hmm, an angular? vise would be nice to have
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[07:16:16] <archivist> mrsunshine, just mount normal vice on a couple of stacked rotaries
[07:16:37] <mrsunshine> archivist, but how do i get the angles just right? :)
[07:17:56] <archivist> I use a precision level to home/touch off
[07:17:59] <mrsunshine> angle blocks would be as good also i guess, just put it under the piece and clamp it in the vise, voila :P
[07:24:23] <mrsunshine> hmm, sine bars? :)
[07:24:29] <mrsunshine> are they homemadeable? :)
[07:26:31] <mrsunshine> looks like a nice way to do it realy =)
[07:29:16] <toastyde1th> use a sine bar to grind angle gauges
[07:29:44] <mrsunshine> mm
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[07:57:36] <mrsunshine> yeap, after looking at tubalcains videos i just have to get myself a sinebar =)
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[08:01:06] <archivist> thats an imposter, the real one was english
[08:01:49] <archivist> was a pen name of a writer in Model Engineer
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[08:06:46] <mrsunshine> hehe =)
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[09:35:56] <Paragon39> archivist: Tom Walshaw a.k.a. Tubal Cain (model engineer) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Walshaw_a.k.a._Tubal_Cain_%28model_engineer%29
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[09:54:30] <archivist> Paragon39, I found one article of his about Ticknal tramway which is local to here ish and Loughborough is not that much further
[09:57:05] <archivist> and I have one of his books Diesel engine design T.D. Walshaw Newnes 1953 2ed
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[13:05:10] <mrsunshine> ive got an electronic Z setter, aparently it passes a small current from the table to the spindle and out the mill or whatever is in there, can this be a problem for ball bearings etc in the spindle ?
[13:05:19] <mrsunshine> dont know how big of a current it passes tho
[13:05:24] <mrsunshine> im guessing its very very small
[13:06:50] <archivist> well you may have an oil film and get no connection at all
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[13:08:07] <archivist> yes the current will wear one surface and plate the other but it will be an axceeeeeeeeedingly small amount probably
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[14:13:18] * JT-Shop notices everything on the web about Stirling engines is "for sale" and not much hard facts can be found on design
[14:13:32] <cradek> 15% off everything, no restrictions, at enco: 15ALLC
[14:13:57] <cradek> JT-Shop: search patent database for the real stuff
[14:14:32] <archivist> and good ol heat engine theory books
[14:15:09] <skunkworks> exactly
[14:15:40] <skunkworks> cradek: did you get yours done yet?
[14:15:44] <skunkworks> :)
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[14:17:33] <cradek> not even close
[14:18:06] <cradek> I made the yoke/linkage and crankshaft and then stopped working on it
[14:18:17] <JT-Shop> cradek: thanks
[14:18:39] <skunkworks> the word for the day is snifter valve
[14:18:55] <skunkworks> oh wait - that is 2
[14:20:01] <archivist> I started on a vacuum engine
[14:28:36] <skunkworks> archivist: do you have any pictures?
[14:28:58] <archivist> wha....Ive only made a few parts
[14:29:18] <skunkworks> ah - I read as - the first engine I made was a vacuum enging ;)
[14:29:24] <skunkworks> engine
[14:29:40] <archivist> it had the important extra word
[14:30:14] <archivist> I think we all have the multiple hobby project problem
[14:30:21] <skunkworks> heh
[14:30:29] <archivist> or is it ADD
[14:30:30] <cradek> no kidding
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[14:30:50] <archivist> ooo shiny lets do...
[14:30:50] <cradek> archivist: even if so, I'm keeping it
[14:34:22] <archivist> thinking about shiny all UK people http://www.theharrogateshow.com/
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[14:52:26] <LesNewell> Would anyone have any objections if I modify halui.program.step and halui.program.run so they operate more like Axis' step and run?
[14:52:43] <LesNewell> In other words they automatically switch to auto maode if EMC is not in auto
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[15:19:47] <Paragon-WS> Hello All, I have just executed a an eagle cad pcb-gcode generated drill program and EMC is complaining that T04 is not found. I am using manual tool change.
[15:21:17] <skunkworks> you need tool 4 in your tool table
[15:22:11] <skunkworks> would be my guess
[15:24:21] <Paragon-WS> Oh I need to add it manually... I mean it is stating the obvious I guess ;-) I think I will edit the gcode as I am only using .8mm and 1mm drills. The pcb-gcode automatically calculated drill bits based on pad sizes I think.
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[15:50:20] <JT-Shop> oh crumb, I guess it is time for a cold boot
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[15:54:47] * Jymmm read that as "I guess it is time for a cold beer"
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[15:59:43] * Jymmm read that as "I guess it is time for a cold beer"
[16:00:18] <JT-Shop> almost
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[16:20:51] <tom3p> stumbledon http://dslab.lzu.edu.cn:8080/members/zhangwei/doc/CNC_introduction.pdf
[16:41:45] <tom3p> are there any changes in the manpage for motion from 2.4 to 2.5?
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[16:49:21] <modernist> Howdy. I've been banging my against the wall with the latest (from a series) of issues getting a custom emc2-dev environment running and I figured I might give IRC a try as Google seems to be letting me down.
[16:52:17] <psha> until you tell us what's problem nobody will be able to help
[16:52:47] <modernist> I compiled a custom kernel of on a intel core i5. I applied the matching RTAI patch etc... I've gotten as far as getting the kernel booting fairly quickly and RTAI's latency tests (etc) also working.
[16:53:32] <modernist> emc2 also compiles but has a number of sincos undefined in various modules.. i.e. 5axis kinematics...
[16:54:05] <modernist> A parallel issue is that I am getting SSE returned as disabled.
[16:54:10] <modernist> errors.
[16:55:07] <modernist> I've added the CFLAGS -lm and -lmarch=native to try to have it address the SSE issue and math components.... No change.
[16:55:28] <modernist> A cat of /proc/cpuinfo shows SSE etc...
[16:57:35] <modernist> That's the gist of it, what is the next debug step that you guys suggest?
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[16:57:55] <JT-Shop> that's way out there :) you might have to wait for someone that is a brainiac to wander by
[16:58:21] <modernist> Specifically on the sse error: "error: SSE register return with SSE disabled"
[16:59:32] <modernist> I have another boot which originated from the 10.04 live-cd , which doesn't have this issue (and because I like suffering and can't imagine why this is so hard, I still want to get my custom kernel to work)
[16:59:56] <modernist> to be clear, the "working" version, is on all the same hardware.
[17:00:47] <modernist> JT: heh....
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[17:01:59] <JT-Shop> like me many wander by only so often...
[17:02:38] <JT-Shop> you might get better coverage posting this also on the mailing list
[17:03:05] <modernist> yar. I just felt bad posting to the mailing list... but I suppose I might resort to that.
[17:03:50] <psha> modernist: just curios - why you need custom kernel?
[17:03:57] <JT-Shop> at least it gets read by a lot of folks at sometime or another during the day/night here you have to catch someone like psha
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[17:04:35] <psha> regarding SSE - what kernel config you've used?
[17:05:24] <psha> maybe you've choosen invalid processor family?
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[17:06:44] <modernist> psha: I'm going to upload a pastebin of the config.. but in the meantime: I've tried both x86_64 generic and core2. Both give the same issue
[17:07:11] <IchGuckLive> Hi on a DC servo motor with encoder is there a schematic ,or how can i messure witch pin on the plugs are witch signal or Voltige
[17:07:43] <psha> hm, CONFIG_MCORE2 is recent one to have SSE :)
[17:08:21] <modernist> psha: I'm sorry, I what do you mean by that?
[17:09:00] <psha> i'm waiting for your config paste ;)
[17:09:13] <modernist> Ich: First google any part numbers you have or look at similar models's datasheets from the manufacturer: Then I'd just open it and look at where the wires go.
[17:09:14] <archivist> IchGuckLive, not enough info, google your motors part number
[17:10:19] <IchGuckLive> omron r7m-a10030-s1-d
[17:10:19] <modernist> http://pastebin.com/csEiY0sc <-- config
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[17:11:45] <archivist> IchGuckLive, google omron r7m-a10030-s1-d manual download
[17:16:14] <IchGuckLive> Thanks i saw in our CNC mashines the same colors from the cable the Motor Power has a Green Red With and blue cable
[17:17:08] <IchGuckLive> the green is the Safty the Red and the Wirhe as the blue is this internatanal ?
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[17:20:37] <IchGuckLive> Resd is U With is V and Blue is W
[17:20:53] <IchGuckLive> as i understand the Jaoanise Manual
[17:23:15] <psha> modernist: where you've got 'no sse' error?
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[17:25:34] <modernist> http://pastebin.com/t9uixF5g <<-- sse error from a custom module compilation... but the same error happens with 5axis etc..
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[17:29:38] <modernist> http://pastebin.com/rtM6jJNY <<- 5axiskins compile with same error message.... ( so you can see which line is causing the error in the code )
[17:30:10] <modernist> which is basically, any sin/cos function.
[17:31:58] <psha> it's not possible to use -lm in rt components
[17:32:25] <modernist> good to know... Unfortunately it was having issues before I tried that.
[17:32:41] <psha> -lm is linking user space libm library
[17:32:46] <psha> but RT comps are running in kernel space
[17:32:57] <psha> so you have to use functions provided by kernel only
[17:33:03] <modernist> gotcha...
[17:33:07] <psha> or have local copies if you want something extra
[17:33:35] <modernist> So, I suppose the question is which option am I leaving out which enables the appropriate kernel math libraries?
[17:33:35] <psha> so you have to solve sincos issues without -lm...
[17:33:43] <psha> yes, kinda
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[17:34:14] <IchGuckLive> what happens if i conect the servomotor without encoder connection ? AC servomotor 100w
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[17:35:36] <modernist> psha: err... well,... any specific flags I should be looking for?
[17:35:48] <psha> modernist: you have troubles with your custom code? or with comps shipped with emc?
[17:36:01] <modernist> all comps.
[17:36:15] <modernist> Atleast any that include sin/cos functions.
[17:36:49] <psha> may you point to one specific?
[17:37:17] <modernist> the 5axis one.. : http://pastebin.com/rtM6jJNY
[17:37:18] <psha> so i don't need to grep though whole source tree
[17:37:26] <modernist> 5axiskins
[17:38:00] <psha> that's SSE error with -lm?
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[17:39:06] <modernist> err.. correct. I should turn my hacked in flags off. I still had the undefined sincos error when compiling emc2 with all the same comps.
[17:39:26] <JT-Shop> interesting thing about a Boss32 control... if your put it into G95 Feed per Rev to tap and you don't use G94 after your done tapping your next drilled hole goes very fast :)
[17:40:17] <psha> modernist: also may you run comp compilation in verbose mode - so it'll show real compiler calls
[17:41:19] <psha> btw 'sincos' is living in libposmath library inside EMC
[17:42:15] <modernist> In various attempts, I also manually forced linking to the sincos in the libml posemath.... that seemed to suppress the undefined issues, but then crashed when being loaded.
[17:42:55] <psha> that's pretty strange since 'genserkins' by default is linked with posemath
[17:43:34] <modernist> right, so 5axiskins gave the error.. I think I copied the genserkins makefile snippet for linking over to the 5axis in my hack
[17:44:08] <psha> it's very easy to break something with Submakefiles
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[17:46:07] <modernist> so the make >> debug.txt gave : http://pastebin.com/t4sxtqb0
[17:46:34] <modernist> and the extra errors in question went straight to the screen: http://pastebin.com/PJYbjPX5
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[17:47:39] <modernist> I don't see a verbose flag on the comp command?
[17:48:46] <modernist> but again, without any extra verbosity, the 5axiskins.c creates the same error without the -lm falgs.
[17:48:48] <modernist> flags
[17:51:51] <modernist> err. that last statement might be wrong. It looks like I added a few extra -lm 's in desperation... I just removed them and am trying again.
[17:53:13] <modernist> nope. same errors.
[17:53:37] <modernist> btw. this is with RTAI 3.8
[17:53:45] <modernist> err. actually no. it is with RTAI magma
[17:55:49] <IchGuckLive> what is if the 3 encoder lines are changed PA PB PC i do not now witch color is witch ?
[18:00:11] <JT-Shop> Z only comes on once per rev A and B reversed and you think your going backwards
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[18:11:20] <archivist> I worry about some being near machines
[18:16:15] <cradek> modernist: I notice HAVE_SINCOS is one of the things that configure checks
[18:16:31] <modernist> cradek: it detects it.
[18:16:44] <modernist> the flag gets set in the .config
[18:17:02] <cradek> not sure what you've done involving cp -m
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[18:25:56] modernist is now known as amperbiguous
[18:27:00] <amperbiguous> cradek/psha: Are these questions more for the emc-dev list or the emc-users list?
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[18:28:01] <psha> amperbiguous: up to cradek :)
[18:28:42] <amperbiguous> (in case it wasn't notified, I just changed my name from modernist to amperbiguous)
[18:29:51] <amperbiguous> cradek: during config it created the config.h which has #define HAVE_SINCOS 1 so somewhere it is detecting it.....
[18:31:25] <amperbiguous> more basic question. how are the Makefile.modinc and Makefile.modinc.in hierarchically integrated with the build system? It seems redundant to me, but I'm obviously missing something.
[18:32:59] <cradek> the first two lines of it might answer your question?
[18:33:11] <cradek> looks like it is not used by the basic build
[18:33:28] <amperbiguous> I'm supposed to read these files?!
[18:33:41] <cradek> if you wonder what they do, yes, why not start there
[18:33:42] <amperbiguous> [before asking questions]
[18:33:46] <amperbiguous> heh. ;)
[18:35:16] <cradek> (not that this strategy will always work...)
[18:37:13] <cradek> /tmp/tmpYA9mNi/5axiskins.c:33: error: SSE register return with SSE disabled
[18:37:21] <cradek> this is a fascinating error
[18:37:58] <amperbiguous> Pivotal in my mind.
[18:38:16] <cradek> wonder if your kernel includes don't match your kernel, or rtai and kernel were built with different compilers, or who knows what
[18:38:31] <cradek> something seems really bogus
[18:38:34] <amperbiguous> okay. what debug info do I need to reference.
[18:38:39] <amperbiguous> or pull
[18:38:43] <cradek> I don't know how to debug it
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[18:39:35] <amperbiguous> should be only one gcc on this system.. 4.4.5
[18:42:17] <cradek> is this an x86_64 kernel?
[18:42:54] <amperbiguous> I tried x86_64 generic, and most recently also compiled as core2
[18:43:06] <amperbiguous> it's a core i5
[18:43:11] <cradek> http://mail.rtai.org/pipermail/rtai/2007-March/016950.html
[18:43:38] <cradek> rtai bug or misconfiguration, maybe
[18:44:06] <cradek> (can't find the original message in their terrible archive)
[18:45:17] <amperbiguous> interesting.... I'm downloading the latest gcc and binutils to compile those natively also... but I"ll check the rtai configs for sse disabling flags.
[18:46:10] <cradek> 10 years ago every emc user had to do what you're doing - yay those days are gone
[18:47:25] <amperbiguous> heh.. Well. I'd like to get up to speed so I can start on the contributions side of the equation.
[18:48:33] <amperbiguous> I just got this new computer (previously running on an older p4) as I was having speed issues with a kinematics module I modded (originally your rotary_x specifically)
[18:48:38] <amperbiguous> err..
[18:48:40] <amperbiguous> (rotarykins)
[18:48:46] <amperbiguous> or whatever it was..
[18:49:02] <cradek> dunno - I've written a lot of them, with varying success
[18:50:11] <amperbiguous> It worked, but it kept losing counts and crashing (software)... so I'm optimistic this new computer will do better...
[18:50:14] <amperbiguous> once it is "up"
[18:50:49] <cradek> I have not seen much crashyness lately
[19:06:45] <amperbiguous> So what is the deal with the Xenomai situation?
[19:07:38] <cradek> what do you mean?
[19:09:04] <amperbiguous> well, perhaps this shows my naivety, but from what I've seen Xenomai seems like the "better" system over RTAI and that it should eventually be migrated out? Is that completely off base?
[19:09:21] <cradek> I don't know how they compare
[19:09:39] <cradek> emc2 has a realtime compatibility layer called rtapi; perhaps an interested person could add support.
[19:10:12] <cradek> we currently (?) run on two RT platforms, but I bet nobody has actually tried on RT-Linux for years
[19:10:27] <amperbiguous> I'm more interested in adding support for USB/Ethernet/CAN
[19:10:48] <cradek> ethernet would be interesting, and many have talked about it
[19:11:28] <amperbiguous> It's the action that I want ;)
[19:11:49] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: http://v7.tinypic.com/player.swf?file=308y2dc
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[19:13:32] <amperbiguous> cradek: do you use Eclipse for emc2 dev?
[19:13:39] <cradek> nope
[19:13:45] <cradek> amperbiguous: assume you have seen http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Emc2HardwareDesign
[19:13:58] <amperbiguous> yar.
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[19:33:26] <PCW> Yes the 5I23 is a smaller card that needed 2 sided assy to stay 4 layer
[19:33:58] <PCW> oops
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[21:22:42] <andypugh> Interesting lathe setup puzzle. I have a rectangular block with a cylindrical spigot growing out of one face. How do I set up to bore a hole at right angles to the spigot, with the axis of the bore coincident with the axis of the spigot.
[21:23:26] <elmo401> 4-jaw?
[21:23:51] <archivist> or faceplate with angleplate
[21:25:02] <andypugh> Holding it is easy enough. But how do I align it?
[21:25:10] <archivist> angle plate then has the reference plane
[21:25:24] <archivist> juts rotate 90
[21:26:02] <andypugh> Having the axes at 90 degrees is easy, having them coincident rather less so
[21:26:32] <archivist> you dont remove the faceplate and angle plate from the lathe between cuts
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[21:27:35] <archivist> the block is clamped to the angle plate which has the base to spigot offset
[21:27:37] <andypugh> (I can see that starting with a rectangular block, faceplate and angle plate, machining the spigot and then keeping the same face on the angle plate is one solution. But I didn't and haven't)
[21:28:12] <andypugh> In fact I don't have a faceplate, or an angle plate. And the block started off life as a cylinder with a spigot,,
[21:28:32] <archivist> else 4 jaw and measuring
[21:28:53] <andypugh> Aye, and that is the question, how do I measure?
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[21:30:05] <andypugh> I suppose I could do a test-bore, measure the width to the edges, then offset it in the chuck to correct it. But I feel there ought to be a cleverer way.
[21:30:09] <archivist> mount to get center of spigot on axis, take readings from a face to bed/whatever, rotate 90 reset to same
[21:31:07] <elmo401> how difficult is it to make it concentric? indicate it.
[21:31:39] <andypugh> Yes. thanks. That will work won't it. I can clock-up conventionally, then carefully not move one jaw as I rotate it 90 degrees.
[21:32:05] <archivist> well the not moving a jaw is hard, hence measure
[21:32:51] <archivist> and jaws get in the way for funny shapes
[21:32:56] <andypugh> Sorry, you have lost me again.
[21:33:36] <archivist> you get some spring when clamping up, also squareness effects it
[21:33:47] <andypugh> I need a height gauge, don't I?
[21:34:02] <archivist> so you cannot assume jaw stayed still
[21:34:35] <archivist> I use height gauges or a dti
[21:35:04] <andypugh> I don't really trust my DTI base.
[21:35:06] <archivist> even a digital vernier with its zero facility
[21:35:47] <archivist> also how accurate is neary snuff
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[21:39:42] <andypugh> I am not sure how accurate I need.
[21:39:54] <andypugh> It is for a Y axis ballscrew mount.
[21:39:59] <archivist> andypugh, also mount dti/whatever solidly in/on the tool post, then you can measure slide it away remount slide back in the same place
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[21:47:16] <andypugh> OK, next question. Why can't I get my wifi connection to work? Ubuntu sees the USB dongle, calls it wlan0, so that part seems OK.
[21:47:59] <archivist> wire beats wifi hand down
[21:49:30] <andypugh> Yes, but I don't want to drill a hole through the ceilig.
[21:49:46] <Tom_itx> aww why not?
[21:50:40] <andypugh> Because the PC in question is only moving upstairs while I wire up the motion hardware. Then it will go into the workshop.
[21:51:28] <Tom_itx> seems like a big hassle for such a short stay
[21:51:37] <archivist> trail wire up the stairs
[21:52:25] <jdhNC> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_plates
[21:52:29] <jdhNC> <urk>
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[21:54:34] <andypugh> Look archivist, the only reason the half-finished PC is moving is that there is a gurl visiting!
[21:55:01] <archivist> gurl...dunno what them is
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[21:55:07] <andypugh> Wires up the stairs is probably worse than a scattering of motion control equipment occupying the living room.
[21:55:19] <DaViruz> some sort of wire eating animal?
[21:55:30] <archivist> they need training
[21:56:03] <archivist> dont let them think you come already house trained
[21:56:28] <DaViruz> i have to hide my motion control equipment when i have friends over too, but only because i know they'd try to steal it
[22:01:50] <archivist> wee just found a tidy lounge pic from 10 ish years ago http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2001/2001_10_11_lounge/P1010001.JPG
[22:02:09] <Valen> http://www.youtube.com/user/Photonicinduction#p/u/2/Zi_bMYFmFGg cd erasing ftw
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[22:04:56] <Tom_itx> is the cat the sole proprietor?
[22:05:14] <archivist> thats a late cat now
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[22:06:51] <Valen> cats are never on time
[22:07:33] <Tom_itx> is that how you burn all your dvd's?
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[22:14:38] <andypugh> Valen: It's susprising that the brushless motor survives.
[22:15:02] <Valen> suprising its electrics do
[22:15:07] <Valen> I guess its floating
[22:15:31] <archivist> the case is a faraday cage probably
[22:15:36] <andypugh> Well, yes, you can see the battery.
[22:17:51] <Valen> I would have thought the EMI would have killed the driver myself rather than any direct zapping
[22:18:37] <Gensor> andy: right or wrong I purchased some sanyo P5 servos with incremental encoder and no driver/amp, can you share info reguarding your lenze encoders
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[22:19:49] <andypugh> Incremental encoders make life a bit easier. My servos had resolvers, so I ended up making my own convertor using an Arduino.
[22:20:44] <Gensor> do you know of other servos with resolvers?
[22:21:31] <andypugh> Why would you want resolvers? They aren't really a good fit to EMC2
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[22:22:27] <Gensor> what brand/type is a good fit?
[22:22:43] <andypugh> Those P5s sound good.
[22:23:20] <Gensor> any magic in adding a hall sensor
[22:23:31] <andypugh> Are you sure it doesn't have any?
[22:23:52] <Gensor> hall was not stated anywhere on the spec sheet
[22:23:57] <andypugh> Google suggests that Kirk Wallace has used them.
[22:24:46] <andypugh> The BLDC component supports homing to index and homing magnetically for servos with no hall sensors.
[22:25:32] <andypugh> But I would be very surprised if your servos didn't have some sort of absolute position feedback.
[22:25:48] <andypugh> Do you have a link for the spec sheet?
[22:32:35] <Gensor> http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENUS300&=&q=M0001584J%28PY2%29-E.pdf&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=
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[22:47:45] <Gensor> <per KimK> Ha, I don't like any of them, lol! I don't like "S: wiring-saved (serial?) incremental encoder" because it's still incremental and that's a bad place for one. I don't like "N" or "V" because they are some kind of "absolute"(?) encoder which apparently requires a supercap or a backup battery of some kind. What is it really, incremental? So back to problem 1. That leaves "J" and "A",
[22:47:45] <Gensor> which if we assume they are really absolute encoders, that's great for the Sanyo drive, but problematic for EMC2 (EMC2 without the Sanyo drive, I mean). So where does that leave us? Mount a resolver? One OK combo would be: incremental + some lesser device (hall effect, 3 or 4 bit absolute encoder, "magnetic doodad", others?) Another would be an absolute encoder or resolver, Mesa is not quite ready
[22:47:45] <Gensor> for that yet but it will come eventually.
[22:50:29] <andypugh> That link appears to be to the drive manual, not the motor?
[22:50:47] <Gensor> page 1-6
[22:51:51] <andypugh> OK, and your motors are....?
[22:52:41] <Gensor> P50B07040DXS00M
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[22:55:43] <andypugh> I wonder what "wiring saved encoder" is?
[22:56:03] <PCW> Serial...
[22:56:06] <Gensor> omg... Archivist room is out of control, you do need a woman
[22:57:43] <andypugh> The question is not whether Archivist needs a woman, but whether any woman needs Archivist...
[22:57:59] <andypugh> (Well, that's my problem, anyway)
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[22:59:07] <archivist> my hobbies and pastimes require me to be single
[22:59:31] <Gensor> can I borrow your o-scope
[22:59:50] <archivist> which one :)
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[23:00:37] <Gensor> no doubt...
[23:01:21] <andypugh> PCW: Page 4-11 seems to indicate that conventional quadrature signals are available.
[23:02:04] <Gensor> I figured you would say something like that.... I have not researched quadrature anything :(
[23:02:21] <andypugh> Quadrature is the easiest.
[23:02:31] <andypugh> You can feed it into the parallel port, even.
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[23:06:57] <PCW> Oh OK I think Im mixing it up with some other Japanese drive with serial. Though intriguingly it looks like possibly they have the Hall (UVW) and quadrature on the same pins
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[23:10:17] <andypugh_> That might get interesting.
[23:11:06] <Gensor> well, Im glad you guys feel comfortable with that detail. I can only assume with a mesa purchase and manual reading that things will solidify for me
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[23:12:53] <jdhNC> I spent all day dealing with Delta Tau PMAC controllers for servos... that is some seriously overly complicated over engineered, way too configurable stuff
[23:13:59] <Gensor> PCW... are you comfortable with this wiring?
[23:14:49] <PCW> The encoder section says the pins are undefined till ~1 second after power on, I wonde if they start up as Halls and then revert to quadrature
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[23:16:29] <PCW> wiring doesn't look too scary
[23:19:34] <Gensor> I'll remember that when they start to rotate and need to wire the encoder
[23:19:55] <andypugh> They won't start to rotate until that is sorted out.
[23:20:56] <andypugh> Worst-case you can home to the index pulse. But finding a way to use the Hall signals would be nice.
[23:22:33] <andypugh> PCW: Hang on, this is the drive manual, so the pulse _output_ might not be what we care about?
[23:23:27] <KimK> Yes, I was wondering if you guys were referring to the encoder follower outputs. Also, someone recently said that USDigital has an incremental encoder with some additional outputs for hall effect, maybe that would help?
[23:24:06] <KimK> Optical Hall effect, if that isn't some kind of misnomer.
[23:26:32] <Valen> there probably is one, good luck measuring it though ;-P
[23:27:14] <Valen> i think they mean they use optical sensors, but give the outputs that mimic hall effect sensors (used for commutation)
[23:27:39] <Gensor> I know who has some o-scopes
[23:28:34] <PCW> I was just going by the fact that the "wire saving incremental encoder" shows the A,B,Z as (U/V/W) and that the encoder outputs dont work until 1 second after power up
[23:28:35] <PCW> and there seems to be no other way to get rotor position (other than commutation/absolute signals muxed on the A/B/I at startup)
[23:28:36] <andypugh> Gensor: Looks hopeful: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_Uy9KAMCWI
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[23:32:20] <Gensor> pcw: where are you located
[23:32:54] <PCW> cafilornia
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[23:36:52] <Gensor> I could ask jeffserv for some assistance, the worst he could say is no
[23:37:10] <andypugh> I already sent him a message :-)
[23:37:40] <andypugh> (People keep asking me for help based on my videos, so fair's fair)
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[23:38:43] <andypugh> Sorry, I am messing about with my router.
[23:40:38] <Gensor> on that note, do you see a problem with ordering the 5i20/5i23/7i43 and one 8i20
[23:45:51] <andypugh> Ask PCW :-)
[23:46:29] <Gensor> I think he is busy making a deathstar
[23:48:15] <Gensor> im curious what PCW's debug rates are
[23:48:46] <andypugh> Do you have the motors yet?
[23:49:01] <Gensor> in route
[23:49:21] <Gensor> one might find its way to california though
[23:49:28] <andypugh> I would wait until you have figured out what wires actually come out of them.
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[23:51:01] <andypugh> It suddenly got late again! Night all
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[23:51:22] <PCW> 'nite Andy
[23:53:15] <JT-Shop> so my other brother John is over here today and is complementing me on my wiring of the shop and said "all your lacking is your datacom" Crap I didn't even think of that... there goes the sheetrock party this weekend
[23:57:29] <Gensor> jt: have you sheetrocked before?