#emc | Logs for 2011-04-05

[00:02:11] <andypugh> They look like a sintered copper with added carbon to me.
[00:02:47] <andypugh> (or some copper-based alloy, at least)
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[00:07:44] <tom3p> good eyes andy i just couldnt see the black in them
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[00:57:52] <unaHm> hello! i've been looking on the internet to see if there's a good toolpath generator that can produce gcode that traces the shape of the modelled object, rather than generating columns, rows or both
[00:58:57] <unaHm> i'm intending to make guitar bodies, so the whole workpiece doesn't need to be milled, only the outline and any holes or contours
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[00:59:40] <jdhNC> unaHm: for windows, check out cambam or cut2d
[01:05:38] <unaHm> thanks jdhNC - do you know of anything linux-based? i'll try those to see if they work with wine as well
[01:06:39] <jdhNC> heekscad/heekscnc might be useable now
[01:06:54] <jdhNC> there are some linux dxf convertors also
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[01:13:15] <unaHm> ok, i'll have a look. i'm using openscad to output 3d files...of which it outputs STL, OFF and DXF. my guess with the dxf export is that it's 2d (going from some mailing list posts), but i'll see what it does
[01:14:56] <unaHm> yes, it's 2d, as it doesn't allow exporting if the 'top object' is 3d
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[02:46:22] <unaHm> i've compiled heekscad for linux, but unfortunately it doesn't seem to have the machining options that are available in the windows version
[02:47:24] <elmo40> oh?
[02:47:27] <elmo40> such as what?
[02:47:39] <elmo40> and what version did you compile?
[02:48:07] <unaHm> i downloaded the latest subversion about erm...half an hour ago
[02:48:49] <elmo40> oh, well... that is OLD. they upgraded since then. added 4 new tool path concepts >_<
[02:48:54] <unaHm> heekscad_beta-0.15
[02:48:56] <unaHm> ahaa
[02:48:57] <unaHm> :)
[02:49:06] <elmo40> .15?
[02:49:11] <elmo40> that is old!
[02:49:20] <unaHm> oops! my bad!
[02:49:21] <elmo40> http://code.google.com/p/heekscnc/downloads/list
[02:49:27] <unaHm> thanks elmo40!
[02:51:03] <unaHm> hmm, these are windows-only...at least as far as i can see
[02:51:23] <elmo40> just need to search around ;)
[03:01:17] <unaHm> hmm
[03:03:26] <elmo40> hrmm indeed!
[03:03:33] <elmo40> I can't locate anything new for linux
[03:04:40] <unaHm> oh well
[03:05:15] <unaHm> i tried to compile the svn from the google code page, but i can't seem to get it to work
[03:05:20] <elmo40> even this one is only 0.16 http://heekscad.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/
[03:05:24] <unaHm> ah
[03:05:36] <elmo40> you using cmake?
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[03:07:29] <unaHm> yes
[03:07:52] <elmo40> not 2.8.2?
[03:07:59] <elmo40> what errors do you see?
[03:08:24] <unaHm> CMake Error: The following variables are used in this project, but they are set to NOTFOUND.
[03:08:24] <unaHm> Please set them or make sure they are set and tested correctly in the CMake files:
[03:08:24] <unaHm> HeeksCadDir
[03:10:40] <unaHm> and i'm using cmake-2.8.3
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[05:00:38] <mhaberler> elmo40: try this install script for heekscad & friends: http://static.mah.priv.at/public/install-heeks.sh
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[09:06:14] <rooks> Valen, ur in making stuff, ever ordered something like this: http://kuvaton.com/browse/17541/special_instructions.jpg ?
[09:07:46] <Valen> no but I might order this http://media.comicmix.com/media/2010/03/15/cad-endofworld.jpg
[09:08:34] <Valen> so my diamond burr tools are working ok
[09:08:38] <Valen> except they keep snapping
[09:08:42] <Valen> for no apparent reason
[09:09:12] <Valen> they are stainless steel dental things, dad thinks they are breaking because the stainless is work hardeneign
[09:09:25] <Valen> any suggestions?
[09:10:03] <rooks> soften them up then and see if it worked?
[09:10:19] <Valen> they have diamonds glued to the end
[09:10:26] <Valen> if it gets > 100C it dies
[09:10:34] <rooks> :(
[09:12:54] <rooks> maybe ur pushing them too much, slow down with the head movement maybe, or at least check last path it had before breaking to see if that is a feasible reason
[09:13:34] <rooks> otherwise shellout on some proper ones i guess
[09:14:38] <Valen> define "proper ones"
[09:14:38] <rooks> other might be that theyre not suited to the constant pounding they have when hitting metal, since i presume youre not doing cnc on teeth
[09:14:46] <Valen> its cutting glass
[09:16:40] <rooks> Valen, something that looks like this http://allegro.pl/frezy-wiertla-miniat-kmpl-6-szt-do-dremel-cnc-i1540314729.html
[09:17:09] <Valen> they look about the same
[09:18:04] <rooks> theyre about 1$ per piece
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[09:18:40] <Valen> doesn't stop them from snapping and breaking the part
[09:19:42] <archivist> they could just be wearing out, replace earlier
[09:20:16] <Valen> still got plenty of diamonds it seems
[09:20:26] <archivist> they are grinding rather than cutting so will lose cutting grains
[09:20:54] <Valen> feed rate is 10mm a minute
[09:21:17] <Valen> could be it, they still feel plenty rough though and we cant really see any damage on them
[09:21:20] <archivist> reduce feed see if they last longer
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[09:22:05] <archivist> they may be clogging pull out and back in to clear
[09:24:45] <Valen> this is after a few hours of cutting
[09:24:57] <Valen> well at least an hour
[09:25:15] <rooks> my bet would be on dental ones not suited for that type of work, prolly they have higher rpm in mind and different work-rest cycle, did you tried using some designed for cnc, or at least dremel ones
[09:25:49] <rooks> try
[09:25:50] <Valen> I cant see dremel being much better and they are $50 vs $6 or so
[09:26:29] <Valen> our spindle will run up to 24000RPM that seems to be the upper range suggested by the diamond burr people
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[09:32:48] <rooks> no idea man, my bet is still that dental vs dremel have some different construction, glue/whatever that holds it together might be a tad better, and that tad might be the reason for extra price since it might provide needed different behaviour under long steady work, maybe more vibrations resistant or whatever is happening to it
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[09:36:54] <rooks> meh.. im getting sleepy, i thought till now this was slug :D
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[09:52:13] <Valen> dremel just charge alot for their crap
[10:18:07] <elmo40> mhaberler thanks for the link
[10:18:21] <mhaberler> did it work?
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[10:49:02] <anonimasu> my plasma has no arc_ok output :S
[11:01:57] <rooks> Valen, i dont know how it is different, but my bet is that those tools designed for cnc in mind would have proper longevity than some throwaway dentist's drills
[11:09:58] * anonimasu sighs torch height control seems dam complex
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[11:23:55] <rooks> anonimasu, have a kitty http://www.lolwut.com/pics/thankuv.jpg
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[11:31:56] <TekniQue> can anyone explain to my why torch height control is more complex than the Z axis in other applications?
[11:38:16] <jthornton> anonimasu: you should see this one http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Torch_Height_Control
[11:38:48] <jthornton> well you have to hijack the Z in a sane manner and return it to where it belongs after the cut
[11:39:29] <jthornton> anonimasu: I ran my table for a year without any torch height control
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[12:20:57] <anonimasu> hehe I have a \floor
[12:21:05] <anonimasu> and no proper table and im lazy...
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[12:53:59] <alex_joni> hey anonimasu
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[13:23:03] <Paragon39> Howdie All, Can the 7i43 card be used under ladder control?
[13:27:52] <SWPadnos> yes
[13:30:23] <skunkworks> almost any pin that is accessable through emc can be linked to classic ladder
[13:30:35] <SWPadnos> almost?
[13:31:12] <skunkworks> I was covering my bases
[13:32:39] <SWPadnos> heh
[13:33:15] <skunkworks> SWPadnos: how is it going?
[13:33:19] <SWPadnos> ok
[13:33:22] <SWPadnos> you?
[13:33:57] <skunkworks> same
[13:34:10] <skunkworks> I think we just bonded!
[13:34:37] <SWPadnos> awww
[13:35:28] <jdhNC> ewww
[13:37:44] <Paragon39> ewww ... Sorry got pulled away just after I posted question. Thanks SWPadnos!
[13:37:50] <SWPadnos> sure
[13:37:56] <SWPadnos> (that was an easy one :) )
[13:38:10] <Paragon39> for a change :-)
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[13:41:28] <Paragon39> Do you guys that own a 7i43 use opto-isolation or do you go direct to the drivers same go's for optical resolvers?
[13:42:33] <SWPadnos> I don't have a 7i43, but I'll suggest that you use a buffer board of some sort if the inputs on your drives are not opto-isolated
[13:42:57] <skunkworks> I am using the 5i20 - but I use the 7i33 servo interface to buffer the encoders
[13:44:26] <Paragon39> I have some old l297 /l298 boards that are redundant but I am not sure if they are isolated. They are Parker Digiplan SD2 cards.
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[13:48:42] <skunkworks> everyone see this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTPkw5BNmVw
[13:48:44] <skunkworks> neat
[13:53:21] <SWPadnos> heh: http://matt.loper.org/blog/?p=68
[13:59:22] <Paragon39> skunkworks: Is that stewart platform (hexapod) going to be used for machining in 6 axis?
[13:59:56] <Paragon39> I guess i am if it could be used for that purpose!
[14:00:13] <Paragon39> I guess i am asking if it could be used for that purpose!
[14:02:50] * JT-Shop tries to figure out how to use his desk without it being in the way of construction and without having to lift it off of the rollers
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[14:19:03] <mikeggg> has anybody worked through the kinematics for a SCARA?
[14:19:06] <mikeggg> http://cgi.ebay.com/Sony-SRX-611-SCARA-High-Speed-Assembly-Robot-Controller-/400206091040?pt=BI_Robotics&hash=item5d2e245320#ht_2260wt_1008
[14:19:10] <mikeggg> that caught my eye...
[14:19:29] <mikeggg> there's another IBM one that looks a lot bigger for $245
[14:20:19] <cradek> the kins would be pretty easy to write.
[14:20:47] <psha> is't not it covered by genserkins?
[14:21:11] <cradek> could be
[14:21:26] <cradek> I had trouble with genserkins when I wanted fewer than 6 joints
[14:21:35] <psha> :)
[14:21:41] <psha> add 4 dummy joints! :))
[14:21:52] <cradek> the kins are so simple for this robot I would write them directly - no need to use genserkins complexity
[14:23:45] <cradek> it says '4 axis'
[14:23:48] <cradek> I wonder what that means
[14:24:02] <cradek> I think there are two rotary and one linear joints
[14:24:02] <psha> +Z?
[14:24:15] <mikeggg> three rotary, no?
[14:24:23] <archivist> and a rotary for the tool holder
[14:24:27] <mikeggg> right
[14:24:31] <cradek> ohh
[14:24:42] <mikeggg> It looks like it only has two servo's though...
[14:24:46] * psha is too slow for this channel...
[14:24:57] <mikeggg> I guess the other axes are pneumatic?
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[14:26:28] <mikeggg> oh, there already is a scarakins
[14:26:38] <mikeggg> you would just have to measure stuff
[14:26:45] <archivist> maybe two cables because one to head and 3 servos other to arm vertical
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[14:29:45] <psha> cradek: btw kins are really easy to write - thanks to good design
[14:29:57] <psha> even i've already written one :)
[14:30:57] * JT-Shop needs to quit looking at fleabay
[14:31:03] <cradek> agree - I've written several - still it takes me a while to actually get it right.
[14:40:19] <JT-Shop> gee, I know how jepler felt when I asked him dumb questions about git...
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[15:00:08] <mikeggg> I just called those folks and offered them $200 for the robot
[15:00:12] <mikeggg> heh
[15:00:19] <mikeggg> they said they'll get back to me
[15:05:51] <cradek> too bad about being in texas
[15:06:50] <mikeggg> only two things come from texas
[15:07:01] <mikeggg> queers and SCARA robots
[15:07:50] <jdhNC> offer $200 for the ABB one instead
[15:07:52] <cradek> once you take the clever rhyme out of that joke, it's pretty much nothing that's left
[15:07:59] <mikeggg> heh
[15:10:17] * psha puts open dictionary nearby...
[15:14:03] <JT-Shop> lol
[15:17:21] <anonimasu> JT-Shop: where do i start with the thc?
[15:17:55] <anonimasu> "torch height control" before someone mentions drugs :)
[15:18:12] <skunkworks> aww.. I just started typing.. :)
[15:18:49] <JT-Shop> anonimasu: wiring all sorted out?
[15:19:06] <TekniQue> what's the big deal with thc?
[15:19:08] <anonimasu> yes
[15:19:19] <anonimasu> TekniQue: I have 3x2 meter flat pieces of metal
[15:19:22] <anonimasu> they come warped
[15:19:24] <TekniQue> is it for cutting stuff that isn't uniform?
[15:19:25] <psha> heh, customer finally signed contract...
[15:19:32] <psha> after ~6 months
[15:19:36] <anonimasu> so I cant get them to lay flat
[15:19:43] <TekniQue> mhm
[15:19:45] <psha> so maybe i'll get some paid EMC work :)
[15:19:51] <TekniQue> ok
[15:20:26] <anonimasu> psha: machining or comissioning
[15:20:27] <anonimasu> ?
[15:20:37] <psha> programming :)
[15:21:01] <psha> new interface with some limited controls + video from two cameras
[15:22:15] <JT-Shop> anonimasu: have you added the thc component?
[15:22:24] <anonimasu> no
[15:22:29] <anonimasu> i didnt find any info about that
[15:22:47] <JT-Shop> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html/man/man9/thc.9.html
[15:24:01] <anonimasu> nice
[15:24:08] <anonimasu> and I just hook that up to my input?
[15:27:20] <anonimasu> then what?
[15:27:36] <anonimasu> my plasma dosent have a arc ok output
[15:27:36] <anonimasu> :S
[15:27:41] <anonimasu> so i dont know what to do with that
[15:28:09] <JT-Shop> that will have to be on or high and you can do that with a setp or some other means
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[15:29:09] <anonimasu> is the often problem with the plasma not igniting ok?
[15:29:40] <JT-Shop> my plasma or your plasma?
[15:29:45] <anonimasu> in general plasma
[15:29:58] <anonimasu> I dont think my plasma goes out unless you try to ignite 2 kilometers from the workpiece
[15:30:02] <TekniQue> I had a plasma, it had some waste material inside the torch
[15:30:05] <TekniQue> to help ignition
[15:30:41] <TekniQue> so it would ignite even when nowhere near the workpiece, but it burned the igniter rod out if you kept it running
[15:30:59] * anonimasu ssh's to the machine
[15:30:59] <TekniQue> ie, kept it running away from the workpiece
[15:31:25] <JT-Shop> I don't have a clue as I've only had one plasma torch the Hypertherm 1250 and the only time it won't light off is when I forget to turn the air on
[15:31:38] <anonimasu> that sounds pretty much the same as me
[15:31:59] <anonimasu> maybe I should allow for the ignition time to be set fom the vcp stuff
[15:34:18] <anonimasu> I am using a normal input so I think I need to add a counter for that
[15:34:32] <JT-Shop> oh and it will not start if I take the tip off and don't reset, it will attempt to start if the ground clamp is laying on the floor but will fail...
[15:34:53] <anonimasu> I wonder if I cant see that with the thc?
[15:34:59] <anonimasu> like the plasma voltage is way too low
[15:35:33] <JT-Shop> there is a pin for that, read the link
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[15:40:58] <anonimasu> seems like i should go to work and plug my anything io board to my computer -_-
[15:41:06] <anonimasu> so I can see what the actual names are of pins and stuff
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[16:00:59] * JT-Shop is wondering if piasdom is waiting on me to start a new topic in pyvcp???
[16:05:56] <psha> JT-Shop: start it! :)
[16:07:19] * JT-Shop thinks a leftover half of a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and a beer would be good for lunch
[16:07:52] <cradek> I've never heard of a leftover half of a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. I can't believe such a thing exists.
[16:08:37] <JT-Shop> rotflmao
[16:09:04] <psha> cradek: maybe bottom half?
[16:11:31] <cradek> psha: it's just beyond understanding. I'm not going to try.
[16:11:50] * anonimasu goes to pick up the computer and the mesa board
[16:12:53] <archivist> psha, americans never leave any food for later
[16:13:15] <psha> hm, maybe cultural differencies? :) how many layers are in your sandwiches? :)
[16:13:25] <psha> bread + something + bread?
[16:14:06] <cradek> yes that's usually it
[16:14:12] <psha> here we have only two layers
[16:14:18] <psha> bread + something
[16:14:25] <psha> (usually)
[16:14:27] <cradek> two slices of bread - put peanut butter on one, put jelly on the other, then squish them together
[16:14:46] <archivist> jelly =jam in other cultures
[16:15:19] <cradek> without two pieces of bread, the jelly is in danger of sliding off the peanut butter
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[16:15:56] <skunkworks> but don't get jelly in the penutbutter jar or penutbutter in the jelly jar
[16:16:05] <psha> heh, here is nearly impossible to encounter peanut butter :)
[16:16:20] <cradek> it's no peanuts?
[16:16:23] <cradek> oops
[16:16:30] <cradek> it's easy to make if you have peanuts.
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[16:16:38] <psha> no, just it's not popular
[16:16:41] <psha> so not sold
[16:16:55] <cradek> do you have other nut butters like almond, cashew?
[16:17:04] <psha> not widespread
[16:17:23] <psha> most popular is normal butter from milk
[16:17:45] <cradek> yes that is very popular here too
[16:18:11] <archivist> sudo make me a sandwich
[16:18:25] <cradek> many americans eat imitation butter made from soybean oil instead of dairy, but they are crazy
[16:18:33] <skunkworks> we use it for banana smoothies (cashew butter or alomnd...)
[16:19:16] <psha> some time ago such 'syntetical' butter was also widespread here
[16:19:34] <psha> until it was prohibited to be named as 'butter'
[16:19:35] <archivist> I stick to real butter too, bugger the heart attack
[16:20:01] <psha> it's really cheap and common on tables of low-paid citizens
[16:20:24] <JT-Shop> I think real butter is better for you than manufactured spreads
[16:21:03] <psha> heh, you are not in fear of 'cholesterol'? :D
[16:21:13] <JT-Shop> psha: I use one piece of bread with peanut butter on one half and grape jelly on the other half and fold it
[16:21:40] <archivist> only one slice? miser
[16:21:44] <aggrav8d> alex_joni, thanks for the tip yesterday about the max velocity. that worked great!
[16:21:51] <JT-Shop> yes, seems to do the trick
[16:22:22] <psha> JT-Shop: heh, it becomes two smaller pieces of bread :)
[16:22:31] <JT-Shop> psha: no fear! also I seldom use butter
[16:22:51] <JT-Shop> ie. one half of a sandwich
[16:23:14] <psha> cholesterol FUD is so popular that 'Cholesterol Free!' (in russian) labels may be found on very strange products
[16:23:44] <jdhNC> here also
[16:23:48] <psha> from vegetable oil to mineral water...
[16:24:44] <psha> but now GMO FUD gains popularity
[16:24:57] <aggrav8d> so, emc.... would this be the place to ask about calibrating my machine? I'm getting results that don't match my expectations. I'm a noob. I've already squared and adjusted my machine (so when i say go 96" it goes 96"). When I do small test cuts the lines are... uneven, at best.
[16:25:02] <psha> and "GMO Free" labels are even more popular then 'Cholesterol free'
[16:25:02] <aggrav8d> my machine didn't come with a test program.
[16:25:05] <bill20r3> gluten-free FUD is the new hotness.
[16:25:33] <aggrav8d> all my food is weavel free.
[16:25:41] <cradek> aggrav8d: yes - just ignore the off topic stuff
[16:25:42] <bill20r3> most of mine is.
[16:25:42] <psha> aggrav8d: maybe you have too high speed/acceleration? are you using servos or steppers?
[16:25:58] <cradek> aggrav8d: can you explain more about what you mean by uneven, and what you have tried
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[16:27:09] <archivist> aggrav8d, play in the machine can cause poor results
[16:27:33] <psha> heh, food FUD's are lagging here so gluten one is not yet come to us :)
[16:27:38] <aggrav8d> it's a wooden frame chain drive system called a BlackToe.
[16:27:42] <archivist> dont climb mill on a loose machine
[16:27:44] <aggrav8d> I'll upload a pic.
[16:28:31] <jdhNC> that's not a very pretty name.
[16:28:33] <aggrav8d> http://imgur.com/UVO0T
[16:28:55] <aggrav8d> it used to be called blackfoot. that was rather ignorant of the creator.
[16:29:08] <aggrav8d> the piece on top of the stock is the last one i cut.
[16:29:20] <aggrav8d> i found that one side of the gantry was moving at a different rate from the other.
[16:29:30] <aggrav8d> (so the last one is after I fixed that)
[16:29:31] <archivist> remove any backlash
[16:29:45] <aggrav8d> not sure how.
[16:30:08] <aggrav8d> i cut the last one at 40IPM and I'm thinking of trying another at 20 to see if it helps.
[16:30:31] <archivist> looks like when direction changes the cut direction pulls the head to a side
[16:30:43] <jdhNC> what's the material?
[16:31:00] <aggrav8d> MDF. I can see striations down the side of the material - each layer leaves a tiny line.
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[16:34:03] <JT-Shop> got a photo of the machine?
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[16:37:14] <JT-Shop> nm, I found it
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[16:37:56] <JT-Shop> uses a bicycle chain...
[16:38:30] <archivist> does it have any play removal springs ?
[16:39:27] <JT-Shop> your best bet is to take extra super light cuts that don't put any force on the spindle and go real slow with something like that
[16:40:26] <aggrav8d> hrm. guy who makes it says he gets 80ipm. i can't even get 30.
[16:40:32] <jdhNC> or try it with a sharpie instead of a router
[16:40:43] <archivist> ew flimsy looking, I agree light cuts and slow
[16:41:49] <JT-Shop> guys on the internet don't always tell the truth...
[16:42:21] <archivist> er...we are on the internet...
[16:42:24] <jdhNC> and most of the people that tell you they are girls on the internette are really guys
[16:42:48] <JT-Shop> also if it is stepper and I assume it is the higher the voltage the more acceleration you can get
[16:43:22] <cradek> does the long axis have a leadscrew just on one side?
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[16:43:58] <cradek> http://buildyourcnc.com/images/blacktoe2M.jpg
[16:44:14] <cradek> the one at the bottom of this picture. is there a matching screw on the other side, or is it driven from just this one side?
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[16:49:28] <aggrav8d> chain on both sides.
[16:49:46] <archivist> hehe gcode file to make parts claiming to be creative commons but cost 300$
[16:49:48] <aggrav8d> stepper is in the middle with two couplers, bars, and sprockets to pull on both sides evenly.
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[16:50:28] <aggrav8d> yeah, and the bill of materials doesn't match the parts delivered that aren't quite right to assemble the machine.
[16:50:28] <archivist> aggrav8d, is there any chain tensioning arrangement
[16:50:30] <aggrav8d> the list goes on and on.
[16:50:37] <JT-Shop> so when it is on and not moving can you move the spindle/carriage by hand?
[16:50:39] <cradek> aggrav8d: maybe you should talk to the manufacturer - possibly it's not put together right?
[16:50:40] <aggrav8d> achivist - yes. i can make it very very tight.
[16:50:57] <aggrav8d> when it's on I can't move it by hand.
[16:51:02] <aggrav8d> the steppers have power and refuse to budge.
[16:51:22] <JT-Shop> I mean backlash in the drive system
[16:51:27] <JT-Shop> does it wiggle any
[16:51:34] <cradek> put the machine in cutting position, not moving, and push on the router in different directions. this simulates the cutting force. maybe you can see what is moving that shouldn't be.
[16:51:56] <JT-Shop> ^^ what he said ^^
[16:52:01] <archivist> look for flex too as well as play
[16:52:02] <cradek> judging from your results, I am guessing you can make it wiggle around a significant distance
[16:52:19] <cradek> yes definitely flex of the gantry is a possible problem, not just drive stuff
[16:54:13] <aggrav8d> i'll try that now. back in a few minutes.
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[17:02:45] <anonimasu> wow
[17:02:57] <anonimasu> for 300 i'd draw someone a router and do fea on it to make sure it dosent flex
[17:04:34] <JT-Shop> for the money he charges you could get some linear rails and ball screws and a pile of wood and have a nice machine
[17:05:11] <jdhNC> an ansys router model?
[17:05:12] <anonimasu> yep
[17:05:18] <anonimasu> yeah
[17:05:31] <anonimasu> not ansys, algor
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[17:08:47] <anonimasu> :)
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[17:42:26] <bzzzz> what the meow. seems everybody is charging a fortune on raw 4140 steel these days.
[17:45:57] <aggrav8d> ugh, wow. There was a LOT of play. tightened things down and that seems to help.
[17:46:09] <aggrav8d> I suspect the next issue is that the stock may be shifting.
[17:46:40] <cradek> funny that none of us asked how the work was held, we just assumed the machine was wobbly
[17:46:45] <jdhNC> try it with a spring-loaded sharpie
[17:46:59] <aggrav8d> sharpie won't move the stock the way a bit will.
[17:47:07] <aggrav8d> i started with sharpies and didn't see any trouble.
[17:47:22] <aggrav8d> other than breaking the nibs because my table isn't as flat as it should be.
[17:47:24] <aggrav8d> :P
[17:47:33] <aggrav8d> mo machines, mo problems.
[17:47:36] <jdhNC> so, it can move well, it just doesn't wen cutting
[17:47:56] <aggrav8d> i got more pics of the latest cut. one moment...
[17:48:18] <aggrav8d> stupid iphone fails to appear as a device in win7...
[17:48:22] <aggrav8d> have to email myself.
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[18:01:50] <aggrav8d> http://imgur.com/a/xx7ml#eAxU1
[18:05:19] <aggrav8d> is there a rule of thumb for calculating bit radius vs feedrate?
[18:05:42] <aggrav8d> eg, if a 1/4 bit can feed at 60ipm, a 1/8 bit should feed at 30?
[18:06:06] <cradek> you can check the manufacturer's data about the recommended use of the cutting tool
[18:06:27] <cradek> often you'll see "feed per tooth" quoted, so you need to know your rpm and number of cutting teeth and do simple math.
[18:06:51] <aggrav8d> these guys didn't give me feed-per-tooth info.
[18:06:57] <JT-Shop> and SFM for your rpm
[18:07:02] <aggrav8d> my rpm is 23k.
[18:07:19] <aggrav8d> sfm?
[18:07:38] <cradek> surface speed (surface feet per minute)
[18:07:46] <JT-Shop> http://www.custompartnet.com/calculator/milling-speed-and-feed
[18:09:03] <JT-Shop> but I doubt that will be of any use to you as you will have to find out what DOC and feed rate gives you acceptable results with your machine
[18:10:32] <jdhNC> I do the trial-and-fail-miserably thing
[18:14:38] <JT-Shop> about all you can do with a machine like yours... so start with a very small DOC and a slow feed and go from there
[18:15:54] <JT-Shop> in case you don't know DOC = Depth Of Cut
[18:17:23] <aggrav8d> sfm, is that like rapid?
[18:19:40] <archivist> that black area could mean too slow or failure to clear chips or blunt tool rubbing and not cutting
[18:19:53] <JT-Shop> surface feet per minute or how fast the cutting tooth moves across the material
[18:20:31] <JT-Shop> chip load is how much each tooth cuts per rev
[18:22:09] <aggrav8d> wow! Super useful. Thanks, JT-Shop.
[18:22:18] <andypugh> sfm = rpm x diameter (x constants such as pi, and 12" and stuff)
[18:23:44] <aggrav8d> I have made some holes on my table and added thread inserts. These are meant to help clamp stock in place atop a spoil sheet. I can see now that the holes are not quite lined up. Oh well, live and learn. What I'm wondering is: do any of you have a recommended pattern for similar holes?
[18:24:24] <archivist> half the fun is the learning you are now doing
[18:25:31] <jdhNC> the other half is slicing yoru fingers on sharp end mills
[18:25:37] <aggrav8d> ouch!
[18:26:47] <andypugh> I hadn't realised end mills were sharp until I had to buy some good ones due to all the vendors of rubbish ones being shut :-)
[18:27:31] <andypugh> There is quite a difference between non-name-chinese and Dormer.
[18:28:12] <JT-Shop> you want really sharp pick up an Onsrud
[18:28:19] <JT-Shop> with your bare hands
[18:28:26] <aggrav8d> thank you, no. :
[18:28:27] <aggrav8d> )
[18:29:25] <aggrav8d> i mean, yes, i have a few that are really nice at $30 apiece. i'm kinda stuck with this shitty chinese one for my smallest holes.
[18:30:19] <aggrav8d> i can't cut an M2 hold with anything but my 3/16"x.4" router bit.
[18:30:25] <aggrav8d> that's not even a proper flute! :P
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[18:39:46] <archivist> aggrav8d, were those full depth cuts and your cutter has straight flutes?
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[18:50:36] <aggrav8d> yes
[18:50:39] <aggrav8d> :(
[18:51:17] <aggrav8d> i mean, i never cut in more than r/2 on each pass.
[18:53:08] <aggrav8d> archivist - so...? is that the cause of my troubles?
[18:54:56] <andypugh> It looks like fairly soft board though.
[18:55:18] <aggrav8d> MDF
[18:55:22] <aggrav8d> 0.5"
[18:55:31] <andypugh> Can you hand-hold the router?
[18:55:50] <andypugh> Might be instructive to get a feel for depth of cut and feedrate that way.
[18:56:14] <andypugh> (with a router base, obviously!)
[18:56:39] <andypugh> Though lowering the cutter and then feeding by hand with the motors off would also work
[19:03:40] <aggrav8d> ??
[19:03:54] <aggrav8d> i could take the router out and do stuff with it, yes.
[19:04:46] <JT-Shop> aggrav8d: try 0.125 DOC and see how that does then go from there
[19:05:18] <andypugh> You could try taking cuts at the same speed as the machine, at the same DOC, and see how hard you have to push. That will give you a feel for what you are asking of the machine.
[19:05:29] <JT-Shop> 0.500 DOC is pretty aggressive for a wooden mill
[19:06:22] * JT-Shop jumps up and down for joy... his buttons work now :)
[19:07:58] * psha pushes button again to watch JT' jumping
[19:08:05] <andypugh> 23 posts while I was not looking?
[19:11:37] <andypugh> When do we go round to his place for the beer?
[19:11:49] <JT-Shop> I think anytime we want
[19:12:38] <andypugh> You think he could find the beer :-)
[19:13:00] <JT-Shop> and I think he can make a button now too
[19:13:41] <andypugh> It took me days too, the first time. But I hadn't discovered the forums and IRC at that point..
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[19:18:03] <archivist> I lurked in here long before my machine was running :)
[19:18:39] <andypugh> Well, I rather thought of IRC as a new-fangled thing that script-kiddies did.
[19:19:18] <archivist> us old farts are here too
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[19:21:17] <jdhNC> IRC has been around since the 80's
[19:26:35] <andypugh> I consider anything newer than email new-fangled. When I first started we had our email addresses the other way round. andy@uk.ac.ic
[19:27:13] <JT-Shop> I just kept bugging alex_joni till my machine could run
[19:27:36] <jdhNC> not uk!ac!ic ?
[19:27:54] <andypugh> Probably, it was a long time ago :-)
[19:27:57] <JT-Shop> he would give me misspelled hints to make me work for it LOL
[19:28:23] <andypugh> I admit I am looking at the Wiki page on JANET now to try to work it out.
[19:28:56] * JT-Shop heads for homo depot for more electrical parts
[19:30:42] <aggrav8d> jt - home depot? are you in canuckistan?
[19:30:50] <aggrav8d> wonder how many peeps here are in vancouver.
[19:31:12] <archivist> look at the user map on the wiki
[19:31:28] <archivist> wiki/website
[19:32:07] <aggrav8d> huh. 0.5 is agressive for wood. I was told "never go more than". nobody told me "trust EMC to take a week on each pass."
[19:33:26] <aggrav8d> i thought .125 was too conservative.
[19:33:34] <aggrav8d> shows to go ya.
[19:33:42] <andypugh> Try .25 :-)
[19:34:05] <aggrav8d> before i do, i'd like some advice on how to better clamp the stock in place please.
[19:35:01] <andypugh> Double-sided tape?
[19:35:03] <archivist> tightly
[19:35:08] <aggrav8d> i have a set of thread inserts about a foot apart on X and Y.
[19:35:20] <andypugh> I would suggest using them.
[19:35:34] <aggrav8d> i can clamp to one axis alright. the trick is I guess I didn't put them in the right spot to clamp both axies at once. :P
[19:36:12] <andypugh> Clamp stop-pieces against the edges you can't reach.
[19:36:22] <aggrav8d> I had no idea what size stock I'd be working with. :(
[19:36:25] <aggrav8d> andypugh - huh?
[19:36:36] * aggrav8d comes from a programming background and doesn't know the lingo yet.
[19:36:54] <andypugh> I guess you can easily clamp one X-edge and one Y-edge?
[19:36:59] <aggrav8d> I use triangular wedges, tapped in with a rubber mallet.
[19:37:10] <jdhNC> does the stock bow up in the middle?
[19:37:11] <andypugh> Then get some scrap wood, and clamp it hard against the other edges.
[19:37:13] <aggrav8d> i can easily clamp all the X. the Y are my problem.
[19:37:20] <aggrav8d> the stock does not bow.
[19:38:20] <aggrav8d> If I trim the end off the spoil sheet I can probably clamp it partway...
[19:38:39] <andypugh> http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/ProductImages/workbenches/017005.jpg
[19:38:52] <aggrav8d> pretty
[19:38:57] <andypugh> (home made) http://woodgears.ca/clamps/holddown_clamp-b.jpg
[19:39:25] <aggrav8d> and that'll stop lateral shifting, too?
[19:40:23] <andypugh> More ideas here: http://www.fine-tools.com/t-track.html
[19:40:51] <mrsunshine> andypugh, that workbench hold down was not stupid, not stupid at all =)
[19:41:34] <andypugh> I admit I know almost nothing about woodworking hold-down methods. But for metal working you nearly always clamp down only, and rely on friction to prevent lateral movement.
[19:42:42] <aggrav8d> k. Guess I need to improve my clamps. I'll have to make a couple shitty clamps to get the stock to hold still enough to make decent clamps. classic.
[19:42:58] <Jymmm> Edge clamping is okey, at least until it works it's way loose then moves and the whole piece is destoryed
[19:43:26] <aggrav8d> jymmm - in those cases I'd plan to have some screw holes in the middle for clamping the islands.
[19:43:33] <Jymmm> T-Bar against a reference edge is best
[19:44:03] <aggrav8d> picture?
[19:44:09] <Jymmm> aggrav8d: Well, for inner pieces, you create "islands" in the drawing/cam then snap apart when donw.
[19:44:16] <Jymmm> done
[19:44:23] <aggrav8d> snap apart?
[19:44:30] <andypugh> This is a very typical way to hold down for metal work. Note the packers and the bridge pieces. Ideally you want the packers a smidge thicker than the work. http://www.mechanicalphilosopher.com/clamp12.jpg
[19:44:47] <Jymmm> Yeah, not islands, but their called bridges.
[19:44:52] <aggrav8d> that's exactly what I was going to do.
[19:46:19] <aggrav8d> hm. i think i see what you're saying. i should have used tabs to hold the piece until the cut was complete, then file them off.
[19:46:31] <aggrav8d> i've known about them but didn't bother. :P
[19:46:33] <JT-Shop> http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=786&PARTPG=INLMK3&PMITEM=505-4638
[19:46:35] <andypugh> Hmm: note: expected ‘u32 **’ but argument is of type ‘u32 * (*)[8]
[19:47:01] <JT-Shop> http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=785&PMCTLG=00
[19:47:10] <Jymmm> correct, can be a pain in the ass, so try to make them as short and shallow as necessary
[19:47:26] <JT-Shop> aggrav8d: last one http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=784&PMCTLG=00
[19:47:44] <JT-Shop> http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=783&PMCTLG=00
[19:47:45] <andypugh> JT-Shop: Pretty expensive compared to the fine-tools one
[19:48:09] <JT-Shop> for ideas...
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[19:50:07] <aggrav8d> PITA why?
[19:51:25] <andypugh> Milling/routing the clamps instead of the work is expensive.
[19:51:46] <Jymmm> aggrav8d: Becasue you have to sand,file,grind, or buff them off
[19:51:53] <Jymmm> afterwards
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[20:18:23] <skunkworks> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mach1mach2cnc/message/127198
[20:18:30] <skunkworks> what does that even mean?
[20:22:09] <andypugh> Seems odd to specifically _not_ use the mesa encoder counters.
[20:23:00] <alex_joni> it means buy an expensive card, then castrate it into some silly I/O only card (that you could get with a couple of 8255's)
[20:23:48] <archivist> keeping the encoders on the parport is dumb
[20:24:02] <mrsunshine> hmm, trying to understand this chip thinning stuff, so less diameter == higher speed etc, but say a V-groove bit, how the heck do you calculate the optimal miling speed with that :P
[20:24:21] <alex_joni> expensive is not the right word
[20:24:22] <mrsunshine> is it the tip of it, or the point that is flat with the material, or what :P
[20:24:29] <alex_joni> powerfull and flexible
[20:24:36] <mrsunshine> hard to define a diamter of the cutter in that case
[20:25:09] <alex_joni> you can calculate the volume of the cutter inside the material
[20:25:25] <alex_joni> and convert to an similar straight millbit
[20:25:42] <mrsunshine> heh, is that true? :)
[20:26:00] <mrsunshine> goes same for a ballnose ?
[20:26:25] <andypugh> I would have thought you would use the max of the embeded radius for sfm
[20:26:57] <alex_joni> well, I'm not saying it's done like that, just that you can do it ;)
[20:27:16] <mrsunshine> alex_joni, hah ...
[20:27:21] <mrsunshine> but how is it done! :P
[20:27:35] <mrsunshine> as i have everything from 0.01mm to say 5mm dia :/
[20:27:40] <mrsunshine> inside the material at the same time
[20:27:49] <alex_joni> nfc
[20:27:57] <alex_joni> probably max diameter
[20:29:06] <mrsunshine> alex_joni, reading at cnccookbook thats how they do it with a ballnose atleast
[20:29:11] <mrsunshine> so might be true =)
[20:29:37] <alex_joni> well, it seemed sensible to me
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[20:31:43] <mrsunshine> alex_joni, yeah but with chip thinning in it, the chip thinning stuff will be fine at the max dia, but at the smallest the cuts are ALOT smaller and thus should require alot higher feedrate :P
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[20:50:46] <alex_joni> at the tip the radius is close to 0, so you need infinite speed :)
[20:53:06] <anonimasu> mrsunshine: the tip diameter
[20:53:23] <mrsunshine> anonimasu, huh ?
[20:53:41] <anonimasu> if you are cutting with v-bits the tip diameter will set the limit of the cutting speed
[20:53:47] <anonimasu> feed/speed
[20:54:17] <mrsunshine> anonimasu, well V groove like alex_joni said, would be close to 0 ?
[20:54:27] <anonimasu> yes, so you need a very low feed
[20:54:38] <anonimasu> and high speed to get any velocity at the cutting edge
[20:54:48] <anonimasu> I have some v bits they are 0.10 in the tip
[20:55:50] <anonimasu> and that
[20:56:16] <anonimasu> that's how i figured what speed to use as they are weakest there too
[20:56:20] <mrsunshine> hmm, should be true that tehy have it like that
[20:56:36] <anonimasu> err feed
[20:56:38] <mrsunshine> anonimasu, but that would lead to chip thinning at the widest points :P
[20:56:46] <mrsunshine> and rubbing
[20:57:12] <mrsunshine> if im not totaly off here?
[20:57:42] <anonimasu> i think your getting too theoretical with worrying about that
[20:57:53] <anonimasu> you can to torchoidal toolpaths if you want to avoid that
[20:58:19] <anonimasu> but you will probably always have that problem
[20:59:40] <anonimasu> about the chip thinning im not sure about it, more passes with lighter chipload
[21:01:18] <mikeggg> man, i bought some of those drill point end mills from enco
[21:02:04] <mikeggg> they break!
[21:02:05] <anonimasu> do they cut at all?
[21:02:12] <anonimasu> dont throw money on worthless tools
[21:02:25] <anonimasu> better buy one for 3x the price for dormer and keep it a long time
[21:02:35] <anonimasu> s/for/from
[21:02:55] <mikeggg> they say that you can drill with them
[21:03:08] <mikeggg> not in stainless steel, you can't
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[21:04:47] <anonimasu> I cut a drill away with my seco carbide tooling
[21:04:56] <anonimasu> hss drill
[21:05:03] <anonimasu> plunged it away
[21:05:22] <anonimasu> didnt make a different sound from the normal material when it got to the broken drill
[21:05:27] <anonimasu> (there's the difference)
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[21:06:16] <mikeggg> yeah, I've used carbide tools to un-fudge HSS
[21:06:47] <mikeggg> works great as long as you aren't the one signing the checks for tooling
[21:08:26] <DaViruz> until the carbide tool breaks in the workpiece instead
[21:08:38] <DaViruz> then you're in deep shit
[21:09:49] <mikeggg> yeah, but the cool part about carbide is it's so brittle. If you whack it hard enough with a drift, sometimes you can fracture it and then get it out
[21:10:11] <anonimasu> shitty tooling just dosnet work so your screwing yourself over in the end...
[21:10:24] <DaViruz> indeed
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[21:12:34] <DaViruz> i wore out a sandvik carbide end mill, and had to get the job done s i sourced another carbide endmill of identical size and geometry, but from some other vendor, some noname tool
[21:13:49] <DaViruz> reduced cutting speed and feed to about half, but the damn thing still only lasted about 1/3 of a workpiece where it shattered from overload due to being dull. the sandvik tool lasted 15 pieces..
[21:15:04] <mrsunshine> why did you lower feed and stuff? :)
[21:15:25] <DaViruz> because i didn't trust the damn thing in the first place
[21:15:47] <mrsunshine> DaViruz, might be due to that it didnt last so long? :P
[21:16:18] * mrsunshine has read a tad to much about rubbing etc today ... "you might think you go easy on the tool but in reality you destroy it" :P
[21:17:21] <DaViruz> the chip thickness was the same
[21:19:35] <anonimasu> thermal fracturing is also a thing to take note on....
[21:20:04] <DaViruz> yeah, i did use coolant
[21:20:29] <DaViruz> but that was neccesary to clear away chips
[21:21:45] <anonimasu> I meant for mrsunshine and carbide
[21:21:55] <anonimasu> it's well worth to know about
[21:21:57] <DaViruz> oh
[21:22:12] <DaViruz> i usually cut more or less submerged
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[21:42:57] <aggrav8d> hello again, back from trying to get my first mill to work.
[21:43:08] <aggrav8d> still no luck.
[21:43:29] <aggrav8d> proper clamps in place, stock didn't move at all. cust still totally f'd up.
[21:43:47] <andypugh> If I have a 350V servo and a 400V drive, is there any reason that my PSU needs to be more than a rectifier and a cap? (plus maybe a fuse and a PTC)
[21:45:38] <andypugh> aggrav8d: Possibly worth making some marks at known X and Y, cutting a part, and seeing if the marks still align at the same X/Y (I am thinking marker-pen onto tape where moving and static parts meet)
[21:46:21] <aggrav8d> tried that. appears to return to origin after cut (i just run g0 x0 y0 z.1)
[21:47:34] <aggrav8d> i tightened down every part of the gantry so there's no perceptible backlash, brought the feed rate down to 6ipm, left the spindle running at 23500rpm... still acted wonky. uploading picture now.
[21:48:16] <andypugh> You might be losing position under load though, it is possible that the steppers are slipping.
[21:49:24] <danimal_garage> hi
[21:50:04] <danimal_garage> i had a power outage and for some reason it keeps booting 8.04 instead of 10.04
[21:50:25] <danimal_garage> it being my lathe's computer
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[21:57:09] <aggrav8d> http://imgur.com/ut6MU the bottom most is the latest cut. note the fails on Z. the cut to the right was done just before it and I stopped after the first part of the job to clear the dust and see how it was going.
[21:57:18] <aggrav8d> stupid emc won't let me move the bit while the job is paused...
[21:58:18] <andypugh> That's an RC servo horn?
[21:58:28] <andypugh> How big are these parts?
[21:58:29] <bill20r3> is the servo-horn-pocket supposed to be centered?
[21:59:51] <aggrav8d> it is supposed to be centered, yes.
[22:00:00] <andypugh> Mark all your couplings and shafts with a marker pen, make sure nothing is slipping
[22:00:37] <aggrav8d> the part measures...3.22" long.
[22:00:54] <andypugh> Not tiny then.
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[22:01:09] <aggrav8d> depends on the definition of tiny.
[22:01:31] <aggrav8d> anyhoo... i have no idea why it failed to go to the right depth.
[22:02:03] <ries> cut a circle clockwise and cut a circle counter clockwise, then you know if you have flex.
[22:02:05] <aggrav8d> make that every axis.
[22:02:17] <aggrav8d> and what do i do about flex?
[22:02:34] <andypugh> Well, this is tiny (and very impressive) http://sciencemuseumconservation.blogspot.com/
[22:02:48] <ries> aggrav8d: it depends where you have it. But from teh images I see it looks like there is flex in the system 'somewhere'.
[22:03:02] <ries> I do assume your steppers (stepper you have??) are not missing steps...
[22:03:13] <andypugh> If you don't get the right depth, I wouldn't be loooking at flex.
[22:03:38] <aggrav8d> i don't get the right depth.
[22:03:48] <ries> andypugh: ic.. I didn't read that far back, I was just looking at the part :)
[22:03:51] <aggrav8d> well, sometimes i do. sometimes I don't.
[22:04:03] <ries> aggrav8d: do you have a photo of your Z axis?
[22:04:12] <aggrav8d> i can go take one.
[22:04:28] <andypugh> Try turning down the axis accelleration values. Initially by a factor of 10, just as a test. (In the INI file)
[22:05:03] <aggrav8d> uh... ok.
[22:05:06] <ries> aggrav8d: Do you use pinion and rack?
[22:05:23] <aggrav8d> nope. chain drive. :P
[22:05:58] <aggrav8d> http://buildyourcnc.com/blackFoot48v40.aspx
[22:06:13] <aggrav8d> second picture on that page shows z axis
[22:06:17] <ries> Might be the same as what I had still.... what's your maximum offset from requested depth, by any means a full stepper motor step?
[22:07:13] <aggrav8d> maximum offset from requested depth? you mean the margin of error?
[22:07:24] <ries> yes
[22:07:33] <ries> sorry, my english is not so good for a native dutch guy :s
[22:08:55] <aggrav8d> i'm running 1/16 microstepping on a stepper with 600 steps/t and 5 start, 2 tpi acme thread. so... 16*600*2 steps / inch on the z axis.
[22:09:04] <aggrav8d> i'd say it's more than a step off, yes.
[22:09:21] <aggrav8d> i'd need to cut the piece out in order to measure exactly how far off it is.
[22:09:46] <ries> what if you don't count the 16 micro stepping?
[22:09:50] <aggrav8d> i bet it's something out of my league like crosstalk from the shitty wiring job.
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[22:10:02] <cv> Don't worry your english looks better than mine
[22:10:06] <cv> and i'm english
[22:10:26] <ries> cv:always good to hear...
[22:10:38] <cv> OT: but do you guys use mirc?
[22:10:43] <aggrav8d> yes
[22:10:52] <ries> aggrav8d: The whole thing with microstepping is, that they are never exact micro steps and can be off by at least half a full step of your stepper
[22:11:04] <ries> cv: Colloguy
[22:11:42] <andypugh> Another Colloquy here. It's nice.
[22:12:52] <ries> aggrav8d: I see now how your Z is driven.... that should be good
[22:12:58] <andypugh> Well, if http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7c6pMgqoY2E is anything to go by, the machines are made by one of the machines, so there is no reason to think that the machine is fundamentally incapable.
[22:13:46] <andypugh> What size of stepper motor? What drives? What voltage?
[22:14:33] <ries> andypugh: that youtube video is not using a chain....
[22:14:51] <aggrav8d> ries - yeah it is.
[22:15:00] <aggrav8d> andypugh - steppers are nema 23 and nema 34. i have a 24v (?) power supply that feeds the drivers. i think. one sec.
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[22:16:25] <ries> This one clearly uses a chain : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-tDJAon3Ag THis one clearly does not : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7c6pMgqoY2E
[22:16:32] <aggrav8d> 36v DC ps. 3amp drivers.
[22:16:59] <aggrav8d> ries - your eyes don't work. i can see the chain shaking in the bottom right of the video.
[22:16:59] <andypugh> OK, that sounds capable enough. The drivers are set to full current?
[22:17:09] <aggrav8d> yes.
[22:17:54] <aggrav8d> oh snap! You're RIGHT!
[22:17:59] <aggrav8d> sonofabi-
[22:18:11] <andypugh> I quite like that chain drive.
[22:18:21] <aggrav8d> i'd like it too if it did what I wanted.
[22:18:55] <ries> andypugh: I know one of the Mechmate guys did it aswell, but you need a lot of tension on the chain, I don't think wood would be able to handle that well.
[22:19:30] <andypugh> You would be compressing the gantry, I can see that not being a problem.
[22:19:40] <aggrav8d> i can lean on the gantry with all my weight and it doesn't budge.
[22:19:47] <aggrav8d> i think the chain is good and tight.
[22:20:06] <aggrav8d> i recheck it every day before i start because I still don't trust it.
[22:20:26] <andypugh> I don't think it is a flex issue. That looks like a pretty stiff machine (for a router)
[22:20:33] <ries> Here is a video of a mechmate with chain : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MHl2N8viKc
[22:20:49] <ries> anyways... on chain there is some flex, but your Z is the issue, not your X/Y
[22:20:55] <ries> so let's concentrate on that
[22:21:16] <aggrav8d> all three are issues right now.
[22:21:36] <aggrav8d> z only cuts deep enough sometimes. XY are clearly not following the perscribed pattern.
[22:22:08] <ries> aggrav8d: How much 'off' is your Z ?
[22:22:14] <andypugh> Z is unlikely to be flex, it should manage to cut to the setpoint under the weight of the router eventually.
[22:22:52] <aggrav8d> ries - it varies. did you see the picture? http://i.imgur.com/ut6MU.jpg the bottom one. that hole in the center should be 1/2" deep, even.
[22:22:54] <ries> andypugh: I agree with that.... it's properly not mechanical, so it must be something else. Chain looks to flexy to me
[22:23:42] <ries> aggrav8d: I cannot see from that picture how much it is wrong though.... but it looks like millimeters wrong?? (sorry for my metrics :) )
[22:23:58] <aggrav8d> http://pastebin.com/tu4Cc2Kv here's my gcode, if it helps.
[22:24:26] <aggrav8d> ries - canada pretends to be metric, too. unfortunately all my tool pieces and software come from the US so... adapt.
[22:24:48] <aggrav8d> yes, it's at least 1/4" wrong in most of the depth (6mm?)
[22:24:51] <ries> hehehehe.... teh g-code will be fine... I am not worried there
[22:24:58] <andypugh> I would try very conservative (long) step timings and very conservative (small) velocities and accelerations to see if the problems go away.
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[22:25:09] <ries> aggrav8d: god...6mm, that would be to much for flex... and you would clearly see that
[22:25:20] <andypugh> What is your base period?
[22:25:25] <aggrav8d> base period?
[22:25:44] <andypugh> The number in the base-period box in stepconf?
[22:26:06] <aggrav8d> erm... one moment, i go look.
[22:26:10] <ries> aggrav8d: I had once on my machine that I simply not put my endmill good enough in my milling machine. This was because I was using a 6mm HS endmill on a 1/4" collet so it started to slip.
[22:26:26] <ries> could you before and after milling also check if the endmil is still in the correct position?
[22:26:55] <andypugh> Though mine have always pulled out (on a manual router) not in.
[22:27:26] <ries> I am in Ecuador and Ecuador pretends to be using something... depending on the object in question and it's origin, US cars are empirical, china stuff is metrics... and the person in question just puts on anything what is closest to his hand :D
[22:27:56] <elmo40> andypugh: your endmills pull out? doesn't the collet get tight enough?
[22:28:02] <ries> andypugh: I used a HS endmill that was rather dull, and my machine was strong enough just to push it in... beginners mistakes :s
[22:28:16] <Valen> I've had them pull out before
[22:28:27] <Valen> mainly due to not having the end done up
[22:28:35] <andypugh> I am talking about router bits, in the nasty collets that cheap routers have
[22:29:01] <elmo40> the only time I have seen an endmill come out at work was when a guy changed the tool and didn't tighten the set-screw hard enough and it came lose. because of the twist of the flutes it went in almost 0.400" ! scrapped a large mould >_<
[22:29:24] <elmo40> andypugh: I see. my router has a 1/2" collet. it gets rather tight
[22:30:00] <aggrav8d> 15000
[22:30:23] <andypugh> Was that based on a latency test?
[22:30:45] <aggrav8d> 12k and change. i don't let the screensaver or power management come on.
[22:30:54] <aggrav8d> ries - the only time the bit looked wrong was because it broke off.
[22:31:21] <aggrav8d> i have also sent it back to z0 and seen it touching the surface as i expected.
[22:31:38] <ries> aggrav8d: Just what I wanted to ask ;)
[22:31:52] <andypugh> And you haven't homed since?
[22:32:09] <andypugh> Hmm.
[22:32:17] <aggrav8d> i home it all the time.
[22:32:38] <aggrav8d> i don't have home or limit switches, so i just jog to a position where i want to start, lower the bit to the surface, home all axies, and go.
[22:32:46] <ries> aggrav8d: if it was the endmill slipping in the collet, then you would have seen the beeing above your workspace at z0
[22:33:03] <aggrav8d> ries - yes.
[22:33:12] <aggrav8d> that didn't happen.
[22:33:22] <andypugh> What's your max axis speed?
[22:33:22] <aggrav8d> nor did it hit the surface early.
[22:33:46] <aggrav8d> you know what? I'll go copy my stepconf. i'm not gonna climb two flights for every parameter :)
[22:34:08] <andypugh> aggrav8d: ssh?
[22:36:11] <ries> aggrav8d: cut depth 0.5", right?
[22:37:44] <jdhNC> export your ~ via samba instead
[22:38:17] <aggrav8d> andy - no network on the CNC computer.
[22:38:29] <Valen> ouch thats no fun at al
[22:38:30] <Valen> l
[22:38:32] <aggrav8d> ries - yes
[22:38:38] <andypugh> How will you IRC while routing?
[22:38:51] <Valen> what about the youtube!?
[22:38:59] <jdhNC> or view questionable content via the web
[22:39:07] <aggrav8d> don't worry. i can still play portal.
[22:39:09] <aggrav8d> :P
[22:39:10] <Valen> a different kind of tube
[22:39:17] <Valen> portal runs in linux?
[22:39:20] <Valen> interesting
[22:39:24] * ries uses networks and milling and even VNC works all fine
[22:39:34] <Valen> ahh wine
[22:39:41] <aggrav8d> oh you stupid machine. i copy the files over, take out the memory stick, and it didn't actually copy them over. ffff.
[22:39:51] * Valen had to stop playing portal
[22:39:55] <jdhNC> I stuck a $9 wireless card in my router pc
[22:40:06] <Valen> aggrav8d: did you eject the thing properly?
[22:41:48] <aggrav8d> yes
[22:42:17] <aggrav8d> http://pastebin.com/2WVEVhsX
[22:45:40] <andypugh> Hmm, I get min step time as 35us. That seems a bit close to the limit, but shouldn't be a problem at cutting speed.
[22:53:50] <aggrav8d> ...?
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[22:56:25] <andypugh> (unrelated) http://zapatopi.net/kelvin/
[22:56:40] <Paragon39> Hello Chaps... Have I calculated the following correctly? Calculation for resister between paraport and ild74 opto-coupler R=(5v-1.3v)/.060A = 61.66ohm?
[22:57:18] <andypugh> 60mA is a lot for a parport to eat. (and even less for it to source)
[22:58:24] <Paragon39> Mmmm Im wondering if I have the correct If from the data sheet...
[22:59:05] <andypugh> aggrav8d: steps-per-inch x inches-per-minute = steps per minute. You start to get problems as you move from 3 base thread periods to 2 base thread periods as that means a 50% speed increase instanteneously. I think you are a long way from that limit.
[22:59:22] <jdhNC> 60mA is max
[22:59:36] <andypugh> Paragon39: I think 10mA will probably work fine.
[23:00:17] <andypugh> (That is what I tend to go for, and that is in current-sinking mode)
[23:00:58] <Paragon39> andypugh: Thanks for the heads up! Do you know what the 7i43 can handle would you recommend the same?
[23:02:04] <Paragon39> 10ma = 350ohm resistor right?
[23:02:37] <andypugh> They can handle 24mA, but 10mA seems kinder.
[23:02:57] <andypugh> Yes. I think I have 330R on my boards.
[23:03:52] <Paragon39> Cool I knock one up a bread board and see how it fairs... Cheers buddy!
[23:06:13] <andypugh> OK, time to sleep.
[23:06:22] <bzzzz> goodnight
[23:06:26] <Paragon39> night
[23:06:54] <andypugh> Hope you find your problem aggrav8d. Don't discount sprockets loose on shafts (how are they connected, anyway?)
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[23:08:26] <aggrav8d> sprocket -> shaft -> coupler -> motor
[23:08:39] <aggrav8d> sprockets are held on with set screws.
[23:08:55] <aggrav8d> i can't budge the machine when i lean all my weight on it, i think the sprockets are ok.
[23:24:17] <ries> aggrav8d: if you put you hand on teh z-slide, can you move it up and down?
[23:36:30] <aggrav8d> nope
[23:36:32] <aggrav8d> not at all.
[23:37:02] <aggrav8d> i can get a tiny amount of wiggle when i grab the bit and push pull, but i think that's the limit of the wood.
[23:37:09] <ries> aggrav8d: sounds like electrical to me then.... but you would hear clearly the missing steps...
[23:38:22] <aggrav8d> what would it sound like?
[23:38:58] <ries> aggrav8d: some kinda ganging sounds
[23:39:07] <ries> banging
[23:39:26] <aggrav8d> banging? oh. I think I know what you mean.
[23:39:34] <aggrav8d> i do hear that at really low IPM.
[23:39:49] <ries> try jogging your gantry to fast, then you will hear it... just don't do it to often :)
[23:40:02] <ries> aggrav8d: mmmm!!!
[23:40:20] <aggrav8d> when i jog too fast it stalls.
[23:40:34] <ries> aggrav8d: yeaa.. it's teh same kinda nice (maby be) at least for me
[23:40:44] <ries> s/nice/noise/
[23:41:08] <ries> when you go at low RPM, you shouldn't hear any banging, obviosly
[23:41:47] <aggrav8d> i would say it's a knocking sound.
[23:42:14] <ries> that could aswell be.. it depends on the size of motors and machine type
[23:42:20] <ries> But knocking or banging is not good
[23:42:23] <aggrav8d> I just rewatched the video i did of my slowest cut ever and I don't hear knocking.
[23:43:19] <ries> it could be that your brfeak out board doesn't drive your stepper motors well, or that EMC is incorreclt configured for your drives (pulse width to shots/long etv... ?
[23:43:26] -!- rooks [rooks!~rooks@102-bem-18.acn.waw.pl] has joined #emc
[23:44:40] <ries> s/shots/short :S
[23:46:21] <aggrav8d> brfeak?
[23:46:30] <aggrav8d> breakout board. ah
[23:48:20] <ries> I do two things at the same time...
[23:58:17] <aggrav8d> it's possible. how would i check?