#emc | Logs for 2011-03-28

[00:01:36] <atom1> JT-Shop, that PT100 was calibrated with an external thermocopule
[00:01:42] <atom1> so it's pretty close
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[01:21:46] <danimal_garage> yawn
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[05:05:32] <The_Ball> Anybody know what these are used for? "fixed ware" http://cgi.ebay.com.au/2pce-Welder-Fixed-Ware-New-/270720137209?pt=AU_Welding&hash=item3f082d77f9
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[05:08:13] <Jymmm> Magnetic welding positioner
[05:14:28] <The_Ball> oh, so a handy all round holder really
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[08:21:08] <The_Ball> What does it mean when a lathe bit or a end-mill is "indexable"?
[08:22:58] <anonimasu> it means it has inserts
[08:23:20] <anonimasu> so you can "index" them(flip them around for another cutting edge)
[08:26:28] <Jymmm> "Something that serves to guide, point out, or otherwise facilitate reference" As in when you do flip the inserts, you can be sure that the cutting edge is always at the same position (the term 'index' here does seem funny)
[08:26:44] <Jymmm> The_Ball: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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[08:48:23] <The_Ball> Ah, that explains it
[08:48:26] <The_Ball> thanks
[08:48:48] <atom1> symetrical
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[12:41:50] <anonimasu> if I have the 7i43 can I just plug it into usb if i have one with usb?
[12:41:56] <anonimasu> for power?
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[12:45:54] <alex_joni> anonimasu: I believe you can
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[14:26:35] <Jymmm> This is pretty good actually... http://www.archive.org/stream/modernmachinesho01roseuoft#page/88/mode/2up
[14:27:11] <Jymmm> the whole book that is
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[14:31:11] <Jymmm> OH SHIT.... It has Text-to-speech (click the speaker)
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[14:32:48] <skunkworks> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ALJ7dzf_pc
[14:33:26] <skunkworks> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfKEMz3ab3Q
[14:37:41] <cradek> that first one needs more table
[14:40:49] <Jymmm> and anchor bolts
[14:41:59] <Jymmm> cradek: In your img2gcode, did you just adjust the depth based on grayscale? (darker == deeper)
[14:43:28] <cradek> you mean the one that comes packaged with emc?
[14:43:41] <cradek> yeah that's what it does
[14:43:56] <Jymmm> cradek: Maybe, I was looking at the .py code off your website
[14:44:02] <cradek> but if I was involved in writing it, it was only tangentially - I don't remember for sure
[14:44:07] <cradek> url?
[14:44:45] <Jymmm> http://www.timeguy.com/cradek-files/image-to-gcode/image-to-gcode.py
[14:45:03] <cradek> eh that's crap - use the one in emc
[14:45:11] <Jymmm> heh
[14:48:25] <TekniQue> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Simple_EMC_G-Code_Generators
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[14:59:57] <Jymmm> Heh $6 http://www.archive.org/stream/starrettbookform00fairrich#page/182/mode/2up
[15:00:23] <Jymmm> in a folding leather case no doubt
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[17:19:06] <anonimasu> does anyone have a idea if acetal will melt from acetone?
[17:20:00] <IchGuckLive> no
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[17:20:27] <IchGuckLive> acetal is a component of Plastik
[17:21:14] <IchGuckLive> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetal
[17:23:06] <anonimasu> thanks I found also a checmical resistance chart
[17:25:32] <atom1> afternoon
[17:25:34] <IchGuckLive> nice woudt you chare this document ?
[17:26:47] <atom1> skunkworks 2nd vid is nice. i tend to climb cut where possible though
[17:27:42] <skunkworks> atom1: right - as long as your machine has no backlash.
[17:28:06] <atom1> conventional tends to grab the work
[17:33:41] <skunkworks> climb cutting grabs the work
[17:34:37] <atom1> i beg to differ. conventional will pull the cutter into the work more
[17:36:14] <psha> logger[psha]: .
[17:36:54] <psha> awallin: here?
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[17:42:30] <andypugh> Hmm, the guy who I was advising on his Anilam conversion has decided to go with Mach3. Perhaps the guys he was talking to about Mach3 made a less thorough job of explaining the difficulties. He seems to think a Mach3 conversion of his DC-servo+tach glass-scales feedback (no motor or leadscrew encoders) machine will be easier than an EMC2 conversion. I am unconvinced.
[17:44:05] <skunkworks> yeck
[17:44:16] <IchGuckLive> he will come back soon
[17:44:18] <psha> andypugh: heh, chances that he'll return back are high ;)
[17:45:24] <andypugh> Yeah, I told him that whatever hardware he ends up will can almost certainly be persuaded to work with EMC2. (and hinted at my doubts that Mach would)
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[17:53:24] <IchGuckLive> by from Germany its late here
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[18:02:25] <jthornton> what kind of signal does the/a glass scale have?
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[18:06:48] <andypugh> In his case they are quadrature output, so should be OK
[18:10:16] <skunkworks> I am assuming it is this guy? http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/cnc-machining/emc2-mach3-servo-conversion-221759/
[18:10:45] <anonimasu> why cant people just realize that emc2 is superior to mach...
[18:10:58] <skunkworks> heh
[18:11:36] <anonimasu> I mean, true closed loop is a must
[18:12:05] <anonimasu> atleast if you want to have control over your precision
[18:12:15] <cradek> he'll end up throwing away good pieces and buying geckos or something - that seems like what people do once they start down the wrong road.
[18:12:46] <anonimasu> the mach crowd are like the mac people
[18:12:49] <anonimasu> -_-
[18:13:03] <andypugh> Hey! I am Mac people!
[18:13:18] <andypugh> Anyway, this is what the guy says "We decided to use mach on this machine. I truly do believe emc2 is better software but was too worried about being able to get it running in a short amount of time."
[18:13:20] <anonimasu> are you zealous in your conviction?
[18:13:21] <jthornton> lol
[18:13:43] <toastydeath> what does that make the fanuc people
[18:13:54] <cradek> anonimasu: is this the guy who said he must have it working in one weekend?
[18:14:03] <andypugh> It is.
[18:14:20] <anonimasu> I put a 3 week deadline for my lathe
[18:14:30] <anonimasu> but even that's pretty tight for me
[18:14:30] <cradek> well IMO, count your blessing
[18:14:46] <toastydeath> there's only one thing to say to that guy
[18:14:50] <toastydeath> "lol"
[18:14:55] <anonimasu> cradek: why?
[18:15:27] <anonimasu> 3 weeks for a machine should be fairly ok
[18:15:33] <cradek> anonimasu: when he fails to do that, whose fault do you think he will think it is?
[18:15:41] <anonimasu> oh that guy..
[18:15:50] <anonimasu> I thought you meant me with 3 weeks for a machine set up
[18:17:11] <anonimasu> indeed, better not have people like that involved in emc2 at all
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[18:17:14] <anonimasu> err with
[18:17:37] <anonimasu> it just gives mach a better rep so more idiots will go that road
[18:18:47] <cradek> with glass scale feedback only, I bet you're screwed without tachs
[18:19:14] <anonimasu> i were wondering how do i feed tachs back into my mesa setup?
[18:19:27] <andypugh> The machine has tachs. That was what made me so cautious in my recommendations...
[18:19:57] <anonimasu> with the 7i40
[18:19:59] <cradek> anonimasu: tachs to the amps I'm sure. If you can't do that (gecko step-servo drives) I bet it's not going to tune up no matter what you do.
[18:20:11] <cradek> anonimasu: usually tachs go to the amps, nowhere else
[18:20:22] <anonimasu> well, I have the mesa amp's
[18:20:40] <cradek> I'm getting my an*: confused, sorry
[18:20:40] <anonimasu> but my motors have factory mounted tach
[18:20:50] <anonimasu> and a aftermarket encoders
[18:21:07] <anonimasu> I were just wondering if I should do nothing with my tach's(that's stuck to the motors)
[18:21:10] <cradek> I don't know if mesa/hostmot2 has any adc
[18:21:23] <anonimasu> dosent seem that way
[18:21:29] <anonimasu> oh analog interface..
[18:21:35] <anonimasu> but extra card
[18:21:46] <anonimasu> for the pc104 stuff
[18:21:51] <anonimasu> so no.
[18:22:11] <anonimasu> I guess I'll put a led on the cables.
[18:22:13] <andypugh> Here is a possible EMC2 config for his hardware: Tachs to a Mesa analog-in, to a sim-encoder, to the drives. Velocity-mode stepgen also to the drive. Secondary feedback loop on the glass scales :-)
[18:22:31] <anonimasu> so it'll glow a nice red when I run in circles around the mach setups
[18:22:50] <anonimasu> dosent seem like there's any analog inputs for mesa
[18:23:47] <anonimasu> i dont know how big difference tach's will make
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[18:23:57] <anonimasu> I have 5k line encoders anyway
[18:24:11] <andypugh> There are analogue inputs on a few of the other cards. 7i65 has some, as does the 7i64.
[18:24:23] <cradek> anonimasu: for you, no difference. for someone with only scales, the difference between stability and not
[18:24:59] <skunkworks> I would be looking at mounting encoders on the servos and going dual loop
[18:25:29] <Connor> Scales + Motors won't work without encoders on the motors?
[18:25:49] <cradek> skunkworks: encoders on the servos is probably an easier way (than ADC) to get velocity into HAL, but I think the approaches are equivalent otherwise
[18:26:15] <cradek> a tightly coupled hardware velocity loop is also fine (that's what he has now)
[18:26:44] <skunkworks> Connor: only if there is 0 backlash in the system.
[18:26:56] <cradek> Connor: that is a complex question. in general, if there is any lost motion between servo and encoder, you cannot make the loop stable.
[18:27:06] <cradek> that's why encoders go on motors usually
[18:28:00] <Connor> But, scales are on the axis, would that not eliminate backlash since it's reading the actual movement of the axis regardless of the motor movement ?
[18:29:05] <Connor> I mean, if the scale says the axis has moved .001" who cares how much to motor moved to make that happen...
[18:29:40] <toastydeath> someone who is incredibly anal retentive
[18:29:41] <toastydeath> probably
[18:30:05] <cradek> Connor: you did not read what I typed
[18:31:01] <Connor> I guess I'm not following... Oh well.. doesn't apply to me anyway.. I'm using steppers only.. :)
[18:31:49] <andypugh> The problem is that all the time the motors are moving and the table isn't, the PID loop is increasing the motor speed. Then you get to the end of the backlash, brake hard to a halt, and repeat the procedure in the opposite direction.
[18:32:20] <toastydeath> so how do you link two sources of motion
[18:32:31] <toastydeath> er, two scales
[18:32:34] <andypugh> Two control loops.
[18:32:54] <toastydeath> what does that mean (sorry, i don't know how controls work)
[18:33:03] <Connor> andypugh: Now that I can get on bored with.. but, how much backlash are we talking?
[18:33:35] <Connor> I mean, if the machine has glass scales, chances are, it's going to have almost 0 backlash..
[18:33:46] <andypugh> With any system like that, the motor will be continualy "hunting" from one end of the slack to the other.
[18:34:11] <toastydeath> how do you decide what to do then, using two control loops?
[18:34:13] <andypugh> No, there will be some lost-motion between the motor shaft and the table movement...
[18:34:45] <andypugh> You have a velocity loop that controls the motor, and a position loop that requests velocities.
[18:34:50] <toastydeath> oh
[18:35:37] <andypugh> (and then, generally in hardware, you have a PWM loop that controls the current...)
[18:36:25] <anonimasu> I might consider scales tho, since they are pretty cheap
[18:36:28] <andypugh> And on top of it all is the motions controllers, which is requesting positions to control feedrate...
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[18:39:21] * anonimasu knows about the pid stuff tho I heard that velocity mode was alot better a long time ago here
[18:41:37] <andypugh> Velocity mode sort of fits well into the hierarchy. Current gives torque, which is accelleration. You control accelleration to get the velocity. You then have another loop controlling velocity to get position.
[18:43:01] <anonimasu> hm, maybe it's worth thinking of for later
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[18:51:20] <awallin> psha: thanks! I downloaded the pdf now.
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[20:05:29] <JT-Shop> does 1 pulse threading work?
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[20:07:41] <skunkworks> as far as I know - you just have to use encoder.0.position-interpolated
[20:08:47] <JT-Shop> ah ok
[20:13:27] <JT-Shop> hmm no sample configs use that
[20:14:20] <andypugh> Yes, it works.
[20:15:59] <andypugh> http://www.linuxcnc.org/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,20/func,view/id,6911/catid,16/limit,6/limitstart,0/lang,en/#6926
[20:16:21] <andypugh> (including a picture of a single-ppr-threaded bolt.
[20:17:58] <andypugh> (Ah, the same thread, of a thread, I see)
[20:21:05] <andypugh> JT-Shop: My fault, but you just posted a link to the same thread as the query is in. That could get recursive, and they might never escape...
[20:21:47] <JT-Shop> no problem
[20:23:15] <andypugh> It confused me at first, I nearly re-replied to some quoted text, as it was italicised rather than quotulated.
[20:28:24] <JT-Shop> looks like a convert to Andy's pyvcp panel
[20:30:01] <andypugh> Eh? But I said NGCGui was better!
[20:30:33] <JT-Shop> you were not convincing enough
[20:30:54] <andypugh> Actually, is there a good screenshot anywhere of your lathe config?
[20:31:29] <JT-Shop> I can make one, I think most on the forum are early ones
[20:39:03] <JT-Shop> andypugh: http://www.linuxcnc.org/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,20/func,view/id,3408/catid,40/limit,6/limitstart,24/lang,english/
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[21:44:49] <ve7it> Jymmm, http://www.narda-sts.us/products_personal_main.php great product name... "Nardalert" rf exposure alarms
[21:49:24] <Jymmm> ve7it: lol, nothing a tin foil hat and cup wouldn't fix =)
[21:49:24] <Jymmm> and I don't mean drinking cup either ;)
[21:49:24] <ve7it> :} yup got to protect the nards!
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[21:50:47] <Jymmm> Um, storage
[21:52:08] <andypugh> Seems to be a new malady, an urge to store more content than it is possible to view. How many people are walking around with more music on their iPod than they have life expectancy left to listen in?
[21:52:38] <Connor> You would not believe how much of the data in the world is redundant, and/or storage isn't used.. it's crazy.
[21:53:44] <Jymmm> I have content scarred across multiple computers, it's been a nightmare for years, been looking for a NAS for that long too.
[21:54:45] <Jymmm> Maxed out external TB drives, etc
[21:54:48] <Connor> I have a 4.1TB Array at my data center used to backup servers... It's been online for 2 years now, 1.9Tb used.. and it retains a archival history of everything that gets backup up to it, even if the source deletes the file.. It's backing up two mail servers with very high activity even..
[21:56:26] <Jymmm> I'm having to delete files now as it is.
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[21:58:12] <Jymmm> My only reluctance is it's specs not living up to the hype.
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[22:01:33] <Connor> You can build your own NAS cheap enough.. Openfiler does a good job.
[22:03:29] <Jymmm> I could, but I want a unified hardware solution, and not have to deal with any drama.
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[22:42:31] * JT-Shop goes back to connecting the black wire to the brass screw and the white wire to the silver screw and the copper one to the green screw...
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[23:13:47] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: So, copper ground and aluminum hot/neutral huh ;)
[23:20:25] <JT-Shop> LOL