#emc | Logs for 2011-03-25

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[00:04:07] <danimal_garage> hi
[00:04:13] <JT-Shop> hi Day
[00:04:15] <JT-Shop> Dan
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[00:04:31] <JT-Shop> dang y is not even close to the n
[00:06:20] <Tom_shop> this damn mill is frustrating
[00:06:27] <Tom_shop> always need more travel than i have
[00:07:10] <JT-Shop> it's that way with everything...
[00:07:35] <Tom_shop> well almost
[00:08:50] <JT-Shop> I did get my cam chain changed on the XL200R this evening :)
[00:09:35] <Tom_shop> i'm trying to square up my new work table that is about 6 x 10 with 9 x 7 travel
[00:10:14] <JT-Shop> makes you wonder how they built the first bigger machines with smaller machines
[00:10:47] <skunkworks> I have 38X36X24 - and I just had to set the negative x limit to -.04 to finish a project. (mainly it was a setup issue) ;)
[00:10:50] <JT-Shop> bring it by the shop you can use the Discovery 308
[00:11:06] <JT-Shop> or take it by skunkworks
[00:11:10] <Tom_shop> it would be a trivial task on a real mill
[00:11:20] <Tom_shop> i got all the holes drilled and tapped
[00:11:28] <skunkworks> heh
[00:12:14] <Tom_shop> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/USBTiny_Mkii/Boxes/milling1.jpg
[00:12:20] <Tom_shop> changing out that plate for a new one
[00:12:25] <Tom_shop> the new one is 1" alum
[00:12:37] <Tom_shop> it should last a while
[00:12:48] <Tom_shop> the other one has been planed down to the bolt heads
[00:13:09] <JT-Shop> do you keep cutting into it?
[00:13:26] <skunkworks> nice. wait - why do you have to - right ^
[00:13:28] <Tom_shop> that's what it's for
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[00:13:41] <Valen> if your doin it right you need to plan it down to the screwdrivers that put the screws in (otherwise you get screwed when you try to assemble it)
[00:13:46] <Tom_shop> we used to use those all the time on the big machines for different parts
[00:13:55] <Tom_shop> bolt the plate right to the work plate and mill away
[00:14:03] <Tom_shop> very common for flat work
[00:14:14] <Tom_shop> the plate is expendable
[00:14:21] <andypugh> This has got to be worth a punt from US folks. (And the shanks are replaceable). http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360354644427
[00:14:27] <Tom_shop> it's just like using softjaws on your kurt vise
[00:14:53] <Tom_shop> sometimes we'd mill a pattern right into the jaws to hold the part
[00:14:54] <JT-Shop> andypugh: flywheel came off with just a tug on the wrench :)
[00:15:04] <JT-Shop> new cam chain is installed
[00:15:22] <andypugh> Nice. Make sure it is on tighter now....
[00:15:28] <JT-Shop> LOL
[00:15:46] <JT-Shop> it is a tapered shaft
[00:16:26] <JT-Shop> Tom_shop: is the Z on the back side?
[00:16:28] <andypugh> Aye, but they can work loose and damage the woodruff, and then you are in trouble.
[00:16:48] <JT-Shop> yea, that would be a problem on an 84' bike
[00:17:04] <Tom_shop> jt, yes
[00:17:14] <Tom_shop> i got that mill so i could have more y travel
[00:17:28] <JT-Shop> I'll check the torque after running a bit
[00:17:32] <Tom_shop> ~15 yrs back
[00:18:29] <danimal_garage> beer for lunch is never a productive idea
[00:18:37] <JT-Shop> andypugh: I doubt you will get it for 99 cents from them
[00:18:45] <JT-Shop> Dan! yes it is
[00:18:57] <JT-Shop> but you can only have one LOL
[00:19:10] <danimal_garage> i had 2 fairly strong ones
[00:19:14] <danimal_garage> 10% ish
[00:19:25] <andypugh> Aye, but if you don't get it, it costs you nothing. If you do get it you have a $5000 boring head.
[00:21:07] <danimal_garage> good news is i think i found an employee
[00:21:13] <JT-Shop> too big for me a UPA5, learned my lesson from Andy
[00:21:15] <danimal_garage> short term at least
[00:21:21] <JT-Shop> cool
[00:21:30] <danimal_garage> friend of a friend
[00:21:51] <danimal_garage> lives right down the road
[00:22:04] <danimal_garage> just lost his job
[00:22:38] * JT-Shop needs to stop looking on flea bay after drinking wine :/
[00:22:44] <danimal_garage> haha
[00:23:06] <JT-Shop> I'm going to check on chow, talk to you guys later
[00:23:23] <danimal_garage> adios
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[00:35:12] <Tom_shop> darn storms
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[00:39:12] <JT-Shop> left over night lol
[00:40:26] <Connor> Hey guys, I want to make a pendant.. Any suggestions on encoders for the jog wheel? I want one that has detents.
[00:40:55] <JT-Shop> a MPG works
[00:41:13] <Connor> MPG ? Link to one ?
[00:41:14] <cradek> yeah, my suggestion is buy an mpg already made
[00:41:27] <JT-Shop> cnc4pc has some
[00:41:34] <JT-Shop> fleabay
[00:42:51] <danimal_garage> agree with cradek
[00:43:02] <danimal_garage> i got a used Fanuc one and it works great
[00:43:13] <Connor> You mean buy one already made?
[00:43:16] <danimal_garage> yes
[00:43:17] <Connor> vs building my own?
[00:43:22] <Connor> That's no fun.
[00:43:27] <cradek> I got a pair of fanuc wheels and they are great - coolant proof and everything
[00:43:30] <JT-Shop> the MPG part
[00:43:51] <JT-Shop> or visit a machinery scrap yard
[00:43:56] <Connor> You mean the jogwheel + encoder ?
[00:44:00] <danimal_garage> yea, i got mine for $50, not even worth making one for that price
[00:44:44] <JT-Shop> no, a Manual Pulse Generator, take a look on cnc4pc they have stand alone ones
[00:44:44] <cradek> http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/product_info.php?products_id=163
[00:45:00] <Connor> Yea, That's what I was looking at.
[00:45:01] <cradek> nothing special about this seller - they are imports and everyone sells them
[00:45:11] <JT-Shop> Chris beat me to it again lol
[00:45:34] <cradek> if you want a new one, these are your choice - they are adequate, but probably not as good as a used industrial one
[00:46:07] <danimal_garage> agreed
[00:46:23] <JT-Shop> I had one (a complete pendant) but sent it to Ray to demo...
[00:47:10] <danimal_garage> cradek, i decided to not use the quadrature output from my digital drives anymore, i bought encoders, and i'm mounting them to the ball screws
[00:47:41] <danimal_garage> i'm also gearing the servos down a little, by 1/3
[00:48:25] <cradek> danimal_garage: cool - output is bogus - so don't use output
[00:48:27] <Connor> Wonder what the diff is with the MPG5 vs MPG7, can't really tell.
[00:48:31] <cradek> (a shame, though)
[00:48:45] <danimal_garage> still sort of a band-aid, but should still work fine
[00:49:14] <danimal_garage> cradek, it has been working well lately, but it has been cool out, and i slowed down the acceleration and velocity a little
[00:49:21] <cradek> Connor: diameter, I think. one is 80mm, the other is unstated (good job, cnc4pc)
[00:49:30] <danimal_garage> plus i have a house fan pointing on them
[00:50:17] <danimal_garage> i figure i'll get better acceration by changing the gearing and possibly a higher velocity since it wont be working as hard
[00:50:18] <cradek> danimal_garage: I've run servers that way for years...
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[00:51:42] <danimal_garage> yea, it should work ok
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[00:52:09] <danimal_garage> plus it will be more accurate, my couplers suck so it'll be better with the belt drive and the encoders right on the ball screw
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[00:56:37] <JT-Shop> say goodnight Gracie
[00:56:45] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: hey
[00:56:51] * JT-Shop heads in for real now
[00:56:56] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: busy?
[00:56:57] <JT-Shop> hy Jymmm
[00:57:10] <JT-Shop> what's up
[00:57:22] <andypugh> I think you could make a nice MPG with a steel gear and a magnet for the detente. Then a couple of Proximity sensors for the quadrature.
[00:57:27] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: Know anything about utility trailers?
[00:57:43] <JT-Shop> just a little, I have two
[00:57:54] <JT-Shop> is it a test?
[00:58:11] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: HF has this 4x8 folding trailer, know how I could weatherproof wall it?
[00:58:29] <Jymmm> (stack bed sorta thing)
[00:58:37] <JT-Shop> would the magnet allow the MPG to bounce compared to a spring loaded ball thingy
[00:58:37] <Jymmm> stake
[00:59:01] <andypugh> JT, maybe, but the quad counter wouldn't see that as pulses
[00:59:06] <JT-Shop> not really Jymmm
[00:59:18] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: k, thanks
[00:59:23] <JT-Shop> ah, I don't know just wondering
[00:59:32] <Connor> My thinking is, make a shield for a Arduino, and put together a kit..
[00:59:45] <JT-Shop> maybe some fiberglas panels or something
[00:59:59] <andypugh> Connor: Have you see that Arduino MPG?
[01:00:05] <JT-Shop> talk to you guys later
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[01:00:16] <Connor> yea. He's not really saying much on the back end of it..
[01:01:02] <andypugh> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9YMpQjsab4
[01:01:12] <Connor> Yea, That's the one.
[01:01:56] <Tom_shop> that would be easy to do i think
[01:02:16] <Connor> Yea, it's not hard. Electronics is easy.. I just need to get all the parts together.
[01:02:17] <Tom_shop> you can even get a similar keypad from digikey
[01:02:38] <Connor> Or roll your own..
[01:02:45] <Connor> again, not that big of a deal.
[01:02:57] <andypugh> Or use a Shuttle Pro?
[01:03:05] <Tom_shop> or maybe better yet a 5 position tactile switch
[01:03:07] <Connor> Shuttle Pro ?
[01:03:46] <Tom_shop> do you make your own pcboards?
[01:03:47] <andypugh> http://www.google.co.uk/products/catalog?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&q=shuttle+pro&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=10477041515742551777&sa=X&ei=6umLTaeWCcqwhQfszcGjCw&ved=0CEoQ8wIwAw#ps-sellers
[01:04:00] <Connor> Tom_shop: I've made a few
[01:04:33] <andypugh> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/devel/html/man/man1/shuttlexpress.1.html
[01:04:36] <Connor> though, I have to say, I kinda like the thumb sticks on my game pad I use.. I can jog two axis at once.
[01:05:54] <Tom_shop> that's kinda what i meant by the 5pos tactile switch
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[01:06:06] <Tom_shop> they used those on the old hp ipaqs
[01:06:08] <Tom_shop> etc
[01:06:20] <Connor> Ah. You can get the thumb sticks from Spark fun.
[01:06:32] <Tom_shop> well that just sucks
[01:06:48] <Connor> ?
[01:06:52] <Connor> Why?
[01:06:58] <Tom_shop> my display just quit
[01:07:05] <Connor> oh
[01:07:17] <Tom_shop> now it's like 640 x 480
[01:08:36] <Tom_shop> must be getting hot or something
[01:09:31] <Tom_shop> glad it didn't quit during a cut
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[01:11:10] <Connor> trying to figure out where he got that enclosure from
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[01:23:54] <atom1> hammond has some decent ones
[01:25:22] <atom1> http://www.polycase.com/jb-35
[01:25:25] <atom1> they have some
[01:28:13] <atom1> http://www.polycase.com/qs-series
[01:30:06] <atom1> hammond has sealed die cast aluminum ones if you want to go to the expense
[01:30:32] <atom1> http://www.hammondmfg.com/1553colors.htm
[01:30:35] <atom1> those look ok
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[01:31:11] <atom1> they'll sample you one if you ask
[01:31:21] <atom1> i got some from them when i did my programmer
[01:32:41] <atom1> http://www.hammondmfg.com/dwg8TBU.htm
[01:32:47] <atom1> they sent me a couple of those too
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[04:23:33] <anonimasu> atom1: yes
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[07:44:57] <atom1> anonimasu, did you look at the turning package anymore?
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[07:53:32] <anonimasu> no I didnt as my lathe is a bit off still
[07:57:46] <Valen> wewt, "milled" some glass today
[07:59:30] <theorbtwo> Valen: Why the scare quotes?
[07:59:40] <Valen> scare?
[08:00:26] <theorbtwo> The quotes you put around "milled" are called scare quotes.
[08:01:00] <Valen> well thats 2 things i have learnt today
[08:01:20] <Valen> using a diamond burr grinder for it
[08:01:34] <theorbtwo> How do you "mill" glass, and how is it different from milling?
[08:01:55] <Valen> not really different, but its grinding not milling
[08:02:31] <theorbtwo> So just using a somewhat different sort of bit?
[08:02:39] <Valen> basically
[08:03:24] <Valen> http://www.horsedental.com/Images/diacoat_burr15.jpg like one of those
[08:04:22] <atom1> anonimasu, i looked it over a bit to get familiar with it
[08:04:39] <Valen> no noticable tool wear yet
[08:04:51] <Valen> haven't done "heaps" of cutting yet though
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[08:58:58] <Valen> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ABNOf_fmEQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5j_Y4CwMLM
[08:59:07] <Valen> cutting glass on mah mill
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[09:09:21] <mrsunshine__> i wonder what kind of precision i can get in an ordenary vise
[09:09:43] <mrsunshine__> atm its very sloppy, but given some changes i could make it more rigid in the moving parts
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[12:24:21] <anonimasu> atom1: how did it went?
[12:24:34] <anonimasu> atom1: im swamped trying to get things togther at work, and trying to make parts for the lathe too
[12:25:56] <atom1> it's pretty easy
[12:26:07] <atom1> i was just trying to figure out the difference in the job file
[12:26:35] <atom1> and where they get the tool outline from
[12:28:06] * anonimasu nods
[12:28:09] <anonimasu> it seems really eay
[12:28:16] <anonimasu> I cant wait to get my lathe running
[12:28:21] <anonimasu> it will happen in 2-3 weeks i think
[12:28:26] <anonimasu> gotta machine motor mounts and stuff
[12:28:49] <atom1> yeah, it's just a 2d profile off the x axis
[12:29:07] <atom1> enter the z and d values
[12:29:16] <atom1> (diameter)
[12:30:05] <atom1> gotta run
[12:31:34] <anonimasu> yep
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[12:31:36] <anonimasu> laters!
[12:31:46] <anonimasu> Valen: what kind of spindle is that on your machine?!
[12:32:36] <Valen> chinese thing
[12:34:02] <anonimasu> did you modify it or anything change bearings or so?
[12:34:09] <Valen> nope
[12:34:11] <anonimasu> and do you get acceptable surfaces?
[12:34:13] <Valen> done steel and al
[12:34:16] <Valen> yeah seem to be ok
[12:34:19] <anonimasu> and does it has a toolchanger?
[12:34:21] <Valen> no
[12:34:31] <Valen> the spindle or the head?
[12:34:33] <Valen> we made the head
[12:34:49] <Valen> the spindle (80mm dia 3kw tube) is chinese
[12:35:11] <anonimasu> so you just use the chinese spindle as drive?
[12:35:19] <anonimasu> im very tempted to do the same
[12:35:47] <Valen> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/general_metal_working_machines/118358-phenolic_basalt_head_our_hm45.html
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[12:41:22] <anonimasu> nice :)
[12:41:51] <anonimasu> im jealous of thoose damn parts that passed by at work yesterday.. 0.05mm slot into stuff -_-
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[12:42:45] <anonimasu> wire edm:ed....
[12:43:01] <Valen> cant wire edm glass ;-P
[12:43:30] <anonimasu> and the damn shims we got that were like 2.500000mm
[12:44:02] <anonimasu> more precision on some shims for a old tractor then the gauge blocks I own..
[12:45:08] <anonimasu> +/- 0.0000something
[12:49:05] <anonimasu> :)
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[13:01:34] <skunkworks> http://www.prsco.com/p2000.html
[13:03:28] <skunkworks> cradek: when are you going to build one again?
[13:03:54] <skunkworks> ;)
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[14:29:30] <awallin_> can anyone get this pdf: http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=jour~content=a723781311
[14:29:38] <awallin_> I would be interested.
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[15:03:11] <tom3p> awallin, i couldnt get that particular, but these may be of interest http://www.cadanda.com/CAD_6_5__645-659.pdf http://cadanda.homestead.com/CAD_5_6__932-941.pdf
[15:05:03] <tom3p> and maybe contact the authors ( i hate those pay for info places too )
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[15:28:58] <Jymmm> awallin: You can get it... for $41
[15:41:29] <danimal_garage> mornin
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[15:54:50] <awallin_> Jymmm: yeah I was hoping someone sits on a campus where they have access.,,
[15:58:49] <psha> logger[psha]: .
[16:01:02] <Jymmm> awallin: A, gotcha
[16:01:04] <Jymmm> ah
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[16:19:06] <Jymmm> jthornton: Entertain me
[16:19:46] <Jymmm> jthornton: Dress up in a gorilla suit and dance around like a chicken
[16:20:47] <Jymmm> jthornton: Or... Gorilla's Gone Wild on tractors or motorcycles... your choice
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[16:41:51] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: HE'S ALIVE!!!
[16:44:51] <SWPLinux> barely
[16:45:10] <Jymmm> heh
[16:45:16] <Jymmm> where ya been?
[16:45:39] <SWPLinux> working at a customer site, like now
[16:45:46] <alex_joni> http://juve.ro/blog/photography/01301068968
[16:45:55] <Jymmm> where?
[16:46:00] <SWPLinux> here
[16:46:07] <SWPLinux> (home town)
[16:46:12] <Jymmm> oh
[16:52:37] <tom3p> great trees! do you stitch with Hugin?
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[16:58:00] <alex_joni> tom3p: no, photoshop cs3
[16:58:39] <cradek> from the looks of the grass in the panorama, your spring is further along than ours
[16:59:18] <alex_joni> well, the pictures were in germany
[16:59:32] <alex_joni> over here it's more wintery :)
[16:59:40] <alex_joni> we got snow 2-3 weeks ago
[16:59:45] <alex_joni> bbl
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[17:19:08] <fragalot> \o/ my SOG S66N arrived
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[17:43:12] <fragalot> Hm.. I think I prefer my old gerber :/
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[17:47:48] <fragalot> Yup. Shame
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[18:17:00] <Jymmm> I like my Leatherman Wave
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[18:19:28] <skunkworks> did anyone see this?
[18:19:31] <skunkworks> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GDizJAi294
[18:20:04] <fragalot> shiny
[18:20:35] <skunkworks> sscnet bus is kept in sync with the 0.88ms emc2 servo thread.
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[18:45:32] <tom3p> impressive 'emc2 is set to 9m/min feeds and 1g acceleration'
[18:46:06] <tom3p> but how far off path can you get in 880uS?
[18:47:07] <IchGuckLive> the wiering is not shoudt so we only can beleve it
[18:50:21] <PCW> Thats a pretty low update rate for torque mode drives at the speed (but maybe ok for velocity mode)
[18:52:34] <PCW> Torque mode drives can get off by the torque error (load-drive) * T^2 so improve quickly with shorter servo periods
[18:52:36] <tom3p> yeh near 1mS
[18:53:16] <tom3p> still nifty to have so few cables
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[18:53:53] <PCW> yeah
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[20:03:09] <Jymmm> I blame SWPadnos for that. (SInce I've been bugging the shit out of him to create a ethernet iface for YEARS =)
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[21:29:24] <awallin> skunkworks: is that your sscnet machine? is there a description of the control/drives/motors somewhere?
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[21:39:39] <PCW> Looks like a Mitsubishi proprietary serial link of some kind (5.6 Mbits/sec for SSCNET II and 50 Mbits/sec for SSCNET III)
[21:40:24] <alex_joni> proprietary serial link sucks
[21:40:33] <alex_joni> but the results look good
[21:40:40] <PCW> If its open, it would probably be pretty easy to implement in a FPGA
[21:40:40] <alex_joni> hi PCW
[21:40:47] <PCW> Hi Alex
[21:41:02] <alex_joni> unlike EtherCAT, whcih makes most sense but isn't open either
[21:41:16] <alex_joni> btw, saw some new chips which are CPU+FPGA in one
[21:41:33] <alex_joni> the CPU core is ARM though, so the RTAI part is a bit harder
[21:42:31] <PCW> I would think the sample rat is a bit slow for the speeds shown
[21:42:33] <PCW> (CPU_FPGA has been around for awhile and yes Xilinx has a new ARM+FPGA chip)
[21:43:33] <PCW> By the time you build an embedded CPU with the FP performance of a ~100 MB you might as well buy the $100 MB
[21:43:49] <andypugh> PCW! alex was rude about proprietary serial links!
[21:44:47] <alex_joni> andypugh: how! so! ?
[21:46:48] <atom1> what is ethercat? and how different than ethernet?
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[21:47:00] <PCW> Well we have our own... But really only so we can use a $2.00 DSP at the end of a wire for realtime I/O
[21:48:34] <PCW> Ethercat uses special slave hardware that picks out the bits each daisy chained station needs and inserts its own data on the fly so there is no store-forward delay
[21:49:11] <atom1> like an extended can bus?
[21:50:16] <atom1> apparently it's licensed
[21:50:21] <PCW> Dont know about CAN (other than its bloat extends to the Ethercat terminlogy)
[21:51:15] <atom1> EtherCAT Master
[21:51:15] <atom1> EtherCAT® Master Stack (for embedded real-time OS)
[21:51:22] <atom1> http://www.esd.eu/
[21:51:37] <alex_joni> atom1: the master is available in several oss-ish flavours
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[21:51:52] <alex_joni> the slave aren't though
[21:51:58] <atom1> o
[21:52:01] <alex_joni> so you can either buy devices from them
[21:52:04] <PCW> Yes the master runs on several standard Ethernet chips but the licensing is "interesting"
[21:52:09] <alex_joni> or IP for embedding in fpga
[21:52:30] <atom1> if the licensing is anything like SD it sucks
[21:55:06] <PCW> We are using their 1100 slave chip for a couple new products but its been a pain, not just the incredibly bloated documentation
[21:55:08] <PCW> (their tech documentation looks like it when through the marketing puff it up filter) but the difficulty in getting parts without kissing Bechoffs ring
[21:55:26] <atom1> http://www.altera.com/corporate/news_room/releases/releases_archive/2007/products/nr-ethercatip_ciii.html?GSA_pos=1&WT.oss_r=1&WT.oss=ethercat slave
[21:55:45] <atom1> apparently they have a dev board
[21:55:53] <alex_joni> I asked for some pricing on the 1100 a couple years ago
[21:56:04] <alex_joni> they wouldn't stop asking me where I heard about ethercat, etc
[21:56:32] <PCW> yes you can buy Bechoffs slave chips or buy IP but in either case you need Bechoffs approval
[21:57:37] <atom1> in other words you need to fund his beach front property
[21:57:40] <PCW> (to actually sell a finished product)
[21:59:13] <PCW> I think its mainly to assure interoperability but its still a pain, you have to buy a license to their verification software suite to sell as well
[21:59:52] <atom1> http://www.ethercat.org/en/faq.html
[22:00:52] <PCW> Ethercat is technically very nice with very fast update rate possible (10 KHz doable) and very accurate timing
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