#emc | Logs for 2011-03-22

[00:00:48] <andypugh> He normally make a lot more sense than that
[00:01:26] <JT-Shop> yea, I tried to understand but come up with the path on the backplot doesn't match the programmed path
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[00:07:53] <andypugh> It looks a bit odd. He is using newsig and emcmot (though in his config emcmot is a signal, not a module)
[00:10:04] <JT-Shop> that is odd
[00:11:06] <JT-Shop> I guess it is a valid signal though
[00:12:18] <JT-Shop> chow time for me, goodnight Andy
[00:12:59] <andypugh> Sleep time here
[00:13:23] <andypugh> Perhaps one more compile-and-crash sequence
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[00:53:17] <Ekken> hmm.. Is Mesa 7i52 daughterboard supported or not? Couldn't find it from here: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Mesa_Cards
[00:53:49] <Ekken> wait, I might have asked this before..
[00:54:11] <Sairon> oi
[00:54:24] <Ekken> "supported only by Master"
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[00:56:18] <Sairon> hmmm
[00:56:19] <Ekken> ok, so it's similar to 7I48
[00:56:26] <Sairon> anyone do any of their own accounting for their shop?
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[01:03:32] <andypugh> I imagine danimal_garage might
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[01:11:14] <kb8wmc> andypugh: how would I find out if I have LOGAPPEND installed, I am running 2.4.6....?
[01:12:08] <andypugh> Sorry, I have only the vaguest recollection of what that is about.
[01:12:53] <kb8wmc> I am attempting to set up the camview application and the instructions as best as I can understand requires LOGAPPEND in order to run camview on version 2.4.x
[01:12:58] <kb8wmc> ok andy
[01:13:38] <andypugh> Try typing (LOGAPPEND, filename) in the MDI window?
[01:14:02] <andypugh> The problem is that I think it will be read as a comment if it isn't there.
[01:15:09] <kb8wmc> haven't tried it yet, rgr on that...I have errors getting preventing me from starting axis and trying to track it all down right now...but will try when I get resolved...
[01:15:22] <cradek> LOGAPPEND is not in 2.4 branch
[01:15:30] <cradek> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.4/html/gcode_main.html#sub:Probe-Logging
[01:16:09] <cradek> vs
[01:16:13] <cradek> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.5/html/gcode/main.html#_probe_logging_a_id_sub_probe_logging_a
[01:16:35] <kb8wmc> cradek: tnx
[01:16:39] <kb8wmc> will take a look
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[01:20:52] <andypugh> This guy scares me: "If I get two 7i29 boards , which two daughter boards will I need? I apologize for asking so much. Trying to learn how all of this will work. So I will hook the servos up directly to the 7i29 boards? (Which go inside the pc?) And hook up the limits, estop, encoder, and scales to the daughter boards? I am hoping to buy parts and try to hook all of this up this weekend."
[01:21:36] <andypugh> That's, optimistic.
[01:21:40] <kb8wmc> lol
[01:21:41] <cradek> too much action, not enough study
[01:22:31] <cradek> is 22A 165V enough to move a full size (bigger than desktop) machine?
[01:23:20] <andypugh> Original motors are rated 30A peak.
[01:23:40] <andypugh> The 7i29 is 22A constant.
[01:23:51] <cradek> cool, it does sound possible then.
[01:23:59] <andypugh> (As I read it). And is it _my_ job to spec his machine?
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[01:24:25] <kb8wmc> that fairly sums it up quite nice andy
[01:25:03] <cradek> then politely decline :-)
[01:25:26] <andypugh> If he was paying me, then it would be different. And I wouldn't expect to get it done in less than a week.
[01:28:17] <cradek> working alone, free evenings/weekends, machine was working before you start, still weeks or a month IMO
[01:28:30] <cradek> for a first retrofit
[01:29:25] <andypugh> Aye and that's for somebody a lot brighter than this guy sounds (no offence if he is lurking)
[01:29:35] <cradek> ouch
[01:30:25] <cradek> first one's rough for anyone. but the answer to that is digging in, not asking constant newbie questions
[01:31:14] <andypugh> True, and to be fair it all starts making a lot more sense when you have the ends of wires in your hands and start wondering where they go.
[01:31:36] <atom1> lick em
[01:31:48] <atom1> that will help get you started
[01:31:49] <andypugh> My worry is that he is going to take a productive, production, machine out of commission and expect to be making parts again on monday.
[01:32:10] <atom1> maybe you should clarify that ahead of time
[01:33:08] <andypugh> I have said it several times, it seems to bounce of his impermeable enthusiasm.
[01:33:26] <atom1> it will sink in when production stops
[01:33:39] <andypugh> Yeah, and he doesn't know where I live.
[01:33:51] <atom1> good thing to keep sacred
[01:34:10] <andypugh> (wanders off and edits forum profile)
[01:34:24] <cradek> haha
[01:34:43] <cradek> everyone knows where I live but it's a thousand miles from everywhere
[01:34:55] <atom1> just as sacred
[01:36:42] <andypugh> Ah, cradek, why is it that the other Hostmot2 functions can find functions in each other without an EXPORT_SYMBOL, but my comp module can't? Is it as simple as that they are in the same directory?
[01:37:17] <atom1> guessing, probably that or scope
[01:37:38] <cradek> sorry, I don't know about it
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[01:44:58] <andypugh> Hmm, it does seem to be exactly that.
[01:45:14] <tom3p> skunkworks, are you http://www.electronicsam.com ? and is it down?
[01:45:38] <andypugh> So, now I need to figure out how to add a comp file to the makefile.
[01:47:43] <atom1> andypugh, scope?
[01:47:54] <atom1> or directory
[01:48:10] <andypugh> Directory.
[01:49:32] <skunkworks> tom3p: yes
[01:50:26] <andypugh> Night all
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[01:52:38] <tom3p> skunkworks, haha thx, i didnt realize i had that gun loaded and pointed at my foot
[01:52:57] <skunkworks> ?
[01:53:03] <skunkworks> I must have missed something :)
[01:53:08] <tom3p> yes its you & yes its down
[01:53:13] <skunkworks> oh
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[01:53:31] <skunkworks> it is up- here..
[01:53:48] <KimK> Which Mesa board is Andy working on again? Was it one of the SPI boards?
[01:53:57] <skunkworks> KimK: !
[01:54:07] <tom3p> skunkworks, 3rd time worked a treat!
[01:54:08] <KimK> Hi Sam
[01:54:20] <skunkworks> tom3p: whatcha looking at?
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[01:54:34] <tom3p> the oword examples pngs before i dove into the toolchanger
[01:54:56] <tom3p> your ball in a cage
[01:54:58] <skunkworks> KimK: over the last week did a bunch of R&D on the k&t - worked great!
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[01:55:21] <skunkworks> tom3p: ah - cool :)
[01:55:45] <skunkworks> it is really nice having control over mv, so, fo
[01:56:09] <KimK> Yes, I saw you asked for some changes and I think got them, congrats. So it worked out?
[01:56:30] <kb8wmc> hello KimK
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[01:56:51] <KimK> Hi kb8wmc, how goes your project?
[01:57:25] <kb8wmc> going well, all up and running and I am now playing with camview application, but am a little lost
[01:58:07] <KimK> I can't help you there, I've never used camview.
[01:59:19] <kb8wmc> rgr that, the instructions I am trying to digest suggest that there is a patch for 2.4.x for LOGAPPEND, the following is quoted from instructions
[01:59:29] <kb8wmc> "(latest 2.4.x should work if patch for LOGAPPEND is applied). "
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[02:00:10] <kb8wmc> I have searched for anything to do with logappend patch everywhere I can think of and turned up nothing
[02:00:45] <kb8wmc> I read the links that cradek posted and it clearly shows that logappend is in the 2.5, no mention of it in 2.4.x
[02:01:25] <kb8wmc> I will find the suggested patch someplace eventually...
[02:01:39] <cradek> skunkworks: I tried to order a catalog, but it says my state is invalid.
[02:01:57] <cradek> I'm especially interested in the Yellow-Blue color lines
[02:02:06] <KimK> kb8wmc: Maybe it won't be long until 2.5.0 appears?
[02:02:21] <kb8wmc> hope so KimK
[02:02:31] <cradek> you could probably get the 2.5 branch from git more easily than you could patch up 2.4
[02:02:37] <skunkworks> cradek: heh - that was a java script project for a class I took umpteen years ago... :)
[02:02:39] <cradek> instructions are on the wiki
[02:02:47] <cradek> skunkworks: did you pass?
[02:02:58] <kb8wmc> rgr...tnx
[02:03:06] <skunkworks> surprisingly - yes ;)
[02:03:15] <cradek> skunkworks: I especially like "what is your name" - it's great.
[02:03:30] <cradek> skunkworks: but please do fix the state problem so I can get a catalog.
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[02:03:45] <skunkworks> he
[02:04:19] <skunkworks> heh - I really should change the mailto so it works - It would be interesting to see if I would get any ;)
[02:04:37] <KimK> kb8wmc: There you go, build 2.5.0 (or 2.6.0) yourself. Thanks, cradek.
[02:07:53] <skunkworks> KimK: http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/testing/liquidaluminum.JPG
[02:08:04] <skunkworks> cutter plugged.
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[02:10:38] <KimK> skunkworks: Not sure what I'm looking at there, were those slots cut with a cold saw? How wide are the slots, and how deep?
[02:11:28] <skunkworks> 3/32 slots - .65 deep
[02:12:03] <skunkworks> this cutter
[02:12:05] <skunkworks> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh4YD0d071c
[02:12:40] <tom3p> i thought it was arbor saws
[02:13:22] <skunkworks> yes
[02:13:29] <tom3p> but what melted the last one?
[02:14:01] <skunkworks> too fast - not enough coolant ;)
[02:14:51] <tom3p> diy heat sinks ?
[02:15:29] <skunkworks> yes - some r&d that I have been putting off
[02:16:16] <skunkworks> not that the cnc is working again..
[02:16:21] <skunkworks> *now
[02:16:29] <tom3p> i bet the sequence will usually leave the last one with least thermal mass, and need different cutting to reduce the heat pushed into a smaller volume
[02:16:59] <tom3p> that s one neat machine
[02:17:41] <KimK> BTW, Sam, thanks for your occasional posts on threading using that CNC program from another vendor. I don't have time to follow cnczone, etc., but I enjoyed reading those short items you posted. You know the ones I mean. I'm still trying to persuade a Hardinge owner that EMC2 is the way to go.
[02:20:26] <skunkworks> it kinda looks like art has it working similar to emc2 for single index threading (using spindle 'position')
[02:21:01] <skunkworks> so all is well in the world again. but as - I think cradek said - steve b needs to show a working thread ;)
[02:21:29] <cradek> heh - I didn't say that - I think art did
[02:23:23] <KimK> I liked the fellow who said he wanted higher quality threads than just to get the nut to fit on the bolt.
[02:23:57] <cradek> that's the usual requirement for hobbyists
[02:24:11] <cradek> it's a pretty dang low bar
[02:27:07] <KimK> Rough with threading tool, then apply tap & die?
[02:27:51] <KimK> Well, Sam says maybe it's better now?
[02:28:02] <cradek> that is often fine for a one-off I bet
[02:29:26] <ds3> gotta change that so we can sell more go-no go inside thread gages
[02:29:35] <ds3> got to bring the price down with volume!
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[02:30:18] <cradek> ds3: I'm always tempted to buy one, but I haven't
[02:30:30] <KimK> Sorry I missed Andy tonight, does anybody recall which model Mesa board he's working on? It's one of the SPI ones, isn't it?
[02:30:37] <cradek> I do often measure PD with wires though, and can hit the value I want
[02:30:54] <toastydeath> wires a+
[02:31:02] <ds3> wires don't work for inside threads
[02:31:17] <toastydeath> yeah but you better use wires to make you go/nogo
[02:31:28] <toastydeath> *your
[02:31:39] <ds3> I been spoiled by a thread mic
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[03:22:03] <Tom_shop> on a G73 is R the retract distance on the peck?
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[03:28:37] <Tom_shop> no nevermind
[03:30:39] <tom3p> vismach can animate joints and axis, but could it animate a tool changer? ( motion not controlled with gcode )?
[03:34:51] <tom3p> can it close the fingers on the puma? can it rotate the tool arm and tool carousel on the mazak?
[03:35:29] <tom3p> ( can it core a apple? E.Norton :)
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[04:40:49] <swamidog_> anyone up to answering some newbie questions?
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[04:54:24] <KimK> OK, I'll give it a try. What's your Q's?
[04:55:18] <swamidog_> i've just picked up a used cnc table off of ebay and i'm trying to avoid buying the wrong controller for it
[04:55:57] <swamidog_> i can provide motor specs/models
[04:56:42] <swamidog_> ebay is full of cheap chinese 3 axis controllers, but i've been reading cnczone and my confidence isn't very high with those
[04:57:19] <KimK> You want to buy something that can run EMC2, is that it?
[04:57:23] <swamidog_> yes
[04:57:41] <swamidog_> and this is a little hobby project so i'd like to keep a smallish budget
[04:57:57] <KimK> OK. Small steppers, then?
[04:58:02] <swamidog_> nema 23
[04:58:16] <swamidog_> powermax hybrid
[04:58:35] <swamidog_> off the top of my head, i think ~3amps
[04:59:25] <swamidog_> these motors: http://www.pacsci.com/products/step_motors/powermaxproducts.html
[05:00:44] <KimK> Quick question: which is more important to you, lower cost or faster rapids?
[05:00:52] <swamidog_> lower cost
[05:01:11] <swamidog_> but i would like good precision
[05:01:36] <KimK> OK. So you can use just about any controller that comes directly off the parallel port then?
[05:01:40] <swamidog_> the idea is to use the table for some laser woodburning
[05:01:49] <swamidog_> so i'm not going to be moving much mass around
[05:02:02] <KimK> How big a table?
[05:02:04] <swamidog_> yes.
[05:02:15] <swamidog_> about 15" per axis
[05:02:34] <swamidog_> here's the table: http://www.monkeyhands.com/images/photos/cnc-rig.jpg
[05:05:08] <swamidog_> stepperworld has an interesting looking driver called the fet-3
[05:05:38] <swamidog_> that's at a really appealing price point http://www.stepperworld.com/fet3.htm
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[05:09:08] <KimK> And have you looked at the supported devices page to get some ideas? http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?EMC2_Supported_Hardware On the stepperworld PCB I can see full step,half step, and wave drive, but no micro step. Is microstepping important to you? Microstepping can sometimes ease resonance problems, but can consume steps more quickly.
[05:10:11] <swamidog_> i'm really not sure what microstepping means. i'm very firmly in the newbie camp on this
[05:11:48] <swamidog_> i was eyeing the gecko controllers since they seem to have a good reputation and there's a lot of documentation, but they're kind of expensive.
[05:13:11] <swamidog_> also showing my ignorance.. my motors have 8 wire connectors and something like the stepperworld controller shows connectors for only 6 wires
[05:13:14] <KimK> No problem. Many stepper motors are designed to have 200 steps per rev. You could step a motor that way with, say, toggle switches. But if you could lower the current little-by-little in one winding while increasing the current little-by-little in the other winding, you could "ease" your way from step to step. So the size of the little-by-little is the size of your microsteps.
[05:13:43] <swamidog_> these are 200 step/rev (1.8 degree)
[05:14:03] <KimK> The "Professor Jones" pages on stepper motors (Univ of Iowa?) should be helpful to you.
[05:14:07] <swamidog_> oh. so it's kind of a smoothing
[05:14:30] <swamidog_> like antialiasing
[05:16:12] <KimK> Yes, smoothing. And it only really matters a little ways down, 8 steps, or 10 steps is popular, sometimes 12 or 16 at the most. Some drives offer up to 256, but that many just consumes steps faster, it has ceased to be helpful long before that.
[05:16:51] <swamidog_> that makes since. you're dealing with a mechanical system
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[05:17:01] <KimK> And doesn't really improve the between-steps accuracy beyond, say, 4 steps?
[05:17:26] <swamidog_> ok
[05:17:33] <KimK> But it does help with resonance problems, which can make a stepper lose counts.
[05:17:54] <swamidog_> what is it when a motor resonates?
[05:18:09] <swamidog_> is it an actual harmonic?
[05:19:06] <KimK> So if you could do 4 or 8 or 10 microsteps, that might be nice, but now you need a more complicated driver, and a controller that can put out steps faster (or you accept slower rapids). It's the old car racing saying, "Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?"
[05:20:24] <KimK> Here's one of the "Jones" links, they're pretty easy to find: http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/step/
[05:20:47] <swamidog_> ok. so 4 steps would be a reasonable goal
[05:20:59] <swamidog_> bookmarked. thanks
[05:21:52] <KimK> Oh, and as you'll soon read, 8-wire steppers are best, because you can then hook them up anyway you want. But sometimes your driver only needs a 6-wire or 4-wire motor anyway. So read your data sheets thoroughly.
[05:22:21] <swamidog_> ok. so you can wire an 8 wire motor for a 6 or 4 wire controller. excellent.
[05:22:54] <KimK> Exactly. Jones will have diagrams, I'm sure.
[05:23:05] <swamidog_> great
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[05:24:08] <KimK> Does that give you enough info to last for awhile? You can always come back and ask again in the future.
[05:24:20] <swamidog_> oh yeah. i have a lot to read through ;)
[05:24:24] <swamidog_> i appreciate it
[05:24:52] <KimK> No problem, have fun. What country are you in?
[05:24:57] <swamidog_> in in the US
[05:25:02] <swamidog_> i'm in the US
[05:25:16] <KimK> Oh, OK, me too. Nebraska here.
[05:25:21] <swamidog_> AZ here
[05:25:46] <swamidog_> nice this time of year. summer hasn't kicked in yet
[05:26:53] <KimK> OK, good luck, I'll check back later in case you have another Q later.
[05:28:13] <swamidog_> thanks! i'm done for the night. the work day starts at 7a for me
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[07:05:13] <anonimasu> http://ah.io23.net/ul/files/torchmount.jpg
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[09:50:57] <G38point4> Would someone kindly explain or point me to literature which, can explain how to use incremental mode in emc.
[09:52:10] <cpresser> G38point4: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html/gcode_main.html#sub:G90,-G91:-Set
[09:52:50] <G38point4> read it
[09:53:04] <G38point4> Once its in incremental mode it wont respond to any axis movement
[09:53:10] <G38point4> it just sits there
[09:53:39] <cpresser> type "g1 x2", and it should move tow mm/inch into positive x direction!?
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[09:54:09] <G38point4> II have to type g1 again?
[09:54:27] <atom1> shouldn't
[09:54:42] <G38point4> see, here the case,
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[09:55:25] <G38point4> various length barends are put in to a collet and a against the stop. the machine pulls in probes its depth.. then is supposed to go off the probed depth to face then drill
[09:55:48] <G38point4> so it can do any lengtch part automatically
[09:56:57] <G38point4> If I type.
[09:57:14] <G38point4> g91 1
[09:57:27] <G38point4> z1
[09:57:27] <cpresser> honestly, i dont have a clue why realtive mode wont work.
[09:57:35] <G38point4> m2
[09:57:38] <G38point4> it just stops
[09:57:43] <G38point4> no movement
[09:57:46] <G38point4> as if it skips the line
[09:58:19] <cpresser> try writing g91 in one line, and z1 in the next line
[09:58:25] <G38point4> I did
[09:59:15] <G38point4> Is my probe maybe causing something to constantly zero out my position?
[09:59:48] <G38point4> Therefore resulting in >goto next line
[10:00:44] <G38point4> I think thats plenty of info Im sure someone know why my axis wont move after a probe trigger and G91 command
[10:09:10] <archivist> my code constantly swaps relative to incremental, you are doing something wrong.
[10:09:59] <archivist> probably resetting your offset incorrectly
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[11:28:34] <tom3p> yesterday i asked if vismach could animate element that weren't joints under gcode control.
[11:28:35] <tom3p> I think so, vismach just xlates & rotates according to its halpin. so another source of motion ( say time and velocity simulating an aircylinder) could create the float value for the halpin
[11:29:27] <tom3p> no need for PID or feedback for some mechanical motions
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[11:40:17] <mhaberler> tom3p: sorry for the wrong directoy... hope you got it to work?
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[11:55:12] * jthornton gets a fresh git clone
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[12:59:12] <cradek> G38point4: maybe you should pastebin your gcode so we can see what you're trying to do
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[13:58:44] <Jymmmm> The beat goes on...
[14:04:31] <skunkworks> first thunder storm of the season last night
[14:05:29] <skunkworks> (well - that I know of anyway)
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[15:06:29] <Jymmmm> Cool! Got my library streaming to my squeezebox!
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[15:58:40] <gene75> Hello guys
[15:59:49] <gene75> I need arcbuddy help
[16:08:44] * skunkworks doesn't know what arcbuddy is..
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[16:10:08] <gene75> arcbuddy.py, I think John T. wrote it
[16:10:30] <cradek> gene75: what is your question? time's a-wastin'
[16:11:05] <gene75> I have the bit at x,y, and I want a 90 degree piece of a circle from there
[16:11:44] <cradek> I don't know how to use arcbuddy but maybe I can help you do the arc (or the math)
[16:12:01] <gene75> what do I feed arcbuddy to get it to goto x+radius in 90 degrees
[16:13:41] <gene75> say x -s at -0.500, the radius of the arc is .375, and the target y is -.0625 from its current -.3125
[16:14:15] <gene75> say x is at -0.500", the radius of the arc is .375", and the target y is -.0625 from its current -.3125
[16:14:23] <gene75> typos fixed
[16:15:37] <gene75> climb cut, 270 to 180 degrees,
[16:21:36] <gene75> Giving it relative values isn't working.
[16:22:22] <gene75> Back to the book again, back later maybe. You've wasted enough time
[16:22:35] <gene75> Thanks Chris
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[16:24:59] <cradek> you can do arcs in relative mode, so maybe you can use G91 G3 Y-.0625 R90
[16:25:13] <cradek> if I understood your description
[16:25:49] <cradek> well that seems unlikely to work
[16:26:05] <cradek> can you maybe put a picture of the arc you want on imagebin?
[16:28:26] <pcw_home> Does anyone know what RADEK on the forum is complaining about? I tried to solicit more information butI'm afraid
[16:28:28] <pcw_home> his problem will end up like MDUZIs problem, no one who can possibly fix the problem can duplicate it
[16:28:54] <cradek> I unfortunately didn't understand the several most recent messages
[16:29:01] <atmega> sounds like an arc from south to west
[16:29:28] <cradek> I think maybe he's just bellyaching that we add "useless" features while stepgen is broken (for him) - there is no new information in the recent ones.
[16:30:43] <cradek> arc from south to west is G2 X-r Y+r I0 J+r
[16:32:41] <cradek> I don't understand why he's using PID either
[16:33:09] <cradek> way too many issues going on at once, no clarity
[16:34:17] <pcw_home> I think maybe he has the same problem as MDUZI (following error in hardware stepgen) and is trying to work around it but thats just a guess
[16:34:48] <pcw_home> but its started out a s a complaint about the data source for the backplot (I think)
[16:36:10] <cradek> I think he might be saying backplot is an unnecessary feature
[16:37:38] <cradek> unfortunately I think he needs to get someone's help posting in human-translated english
[16:48:10] <skunkworks> pcw_home: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1a0YpKfSGE8
[16:48:28] <skunkworks> ran the machine quite a bit this last week - very happy
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[17:01:06] <pcw_home> Well, nice to hear fro a happy camper :-)
[17:02:47] <skunkworks> dad just ripped the guts out of a cincinati lathe we need to convert. I think we are going to try to keep the hydraulic servos and use some small amc drives to drive the valves.
[17:03:48] <skunkworks> neat experiment anyway ;)
[17:05:12] <pcw_home> What feedback do the hydraulic servos have?
[17:05:51] <skunkworks> I think resolvers - but it has been a while
[17:08:52] <skunkworks> iirc - they actually had 2 resolvers for each axis - one geared for metric and one geared for english. (scary huh)?
[17:09:37] <archivist> keep that working dont be scared
[17:13:18] <pcw_home> How old is the Cincinnati? maybe they had no way of scaling (no math)
[17:18:23] <danimal_garage> hi
[17:18:24] <skunkworks> delivered in 73
[17:18:24] <danimal_garage> ancient!
[17:18:24] <skunkworks> it was all ttl 7400 series logic
[17:18:24] <skunkworks> danimal_garage: hi
[17:18:24] <pcw_home> So scaling math would be expensive
[17:18:24] <skunkworks> right
[17:18:47] <danimal_garage> i guess my 1978 lathe was pretty high tech
[17:19:02] <danimal_garage> i think it had an in-mm switch
[17:19:18] <danimal_garage> could be wrong though
[17:19:38] <skunkworks> that is what this had - switch ;)
[17:19:44] <danimal_garage> it had a lot of switches, not many worked
[17:20:00] <danimal_garage> this only had one resolver per axis though
[17:20:09] <skunkworks> actually - I think it was a key
[17:20:30] <skunkworks> you had to have the key to switch from metric to english and vice versa
[17:22:14] <pcw_home> microprocessors became wide spread in the 70s so I would guess most late 70s equipment would be processor based
[17:22:16] <pcw_home> I guess some earlier CNC equipment used minis like PDP8
[17:22:16] <danimal_garage> nice
[17:23:32] <pcw_home> Cant trust just anyone with changing the scale I guess
[17:23:55] <atom1> it's nearly screwed up some mars landings
[17:24:01] <skunkworks> I am sure you could run a english program in metric and cause all kinds of problems ;)
[17:24:18] <skunkworks> atom1: it did screw up some mars landings ;)
[17:24:24] <atom1> heh
[17:24:47] <atom1> i thought they caught it and uploaded new firmware
[17:25:18] <ds3> design everything with a 1:25.4 margin
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[17:26:05] <cpresser> just have everyone switch to metric :)
[17:31:06] <ds3> how many places are really metric?
[17:33:29] <pcw_home> ~1/2 the electronics parts we use are metric...
[17:34:26] <pcw_home> lots of .65 mm (~25.5 mills) and 25 mill pitch parts
[17:35:21] <danimal_garage> my parts are half and half
[17:35:50] <danimal_garage> metric bolt patterns, english pitch on the teeth
[17:36:04] <danimal_garage> english threads as well
[17:36:08] <cpresser> here in europe everything is metric, expect electronic parts and threads used in plumbing
[17:36:15] <ds3> a lot of passives are not metric
[17:36:24] <ds3> and I don't count 25.4mm anything metric
[17:36:58] <danimal_garage> yea, lots of stuff is just inch converted to mm
[17:37:18] <cpresser> but sinc a few years any vendor is required to specify everything in metric, even if its is an 'inch-part'
[17:38:01] <cpresser> when buying a computer screen, is is labeled as 53cm(21")
[17:38:22] <cpresser> you have to pay fees if you label it as 21"(53cm)
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[17:39:24] <atmega> that's backwards.
[17:39:44] <atmega> real things are measured in inches.... surely nobody really uses metric for anything useful.
[17:40:42] <cradek> how does this topic regularly happen to otherwise-intelligent people?
[17:41:01] <danimal_garage> ha
[17:41:10] <danimal_garage> speak for yourself
[17:41:12] <atmega> dunno... there are enough metric whackjobs out there to keep it going I guess.
[17:41:25] <danimal_garage> i'm not otherwise anything
[17:41:57] <danimal_garage> lol atmega
[17:42:43] <ds3> that is not metric
[17:43:05] <ds3> the whole argument with metric is nice round numbers
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[17:43:52] <ds3> I want exactly 2*PI lengths of rod, 2*sqrt(3) in diameter. :D
[17:44:02] <ds3> +/- 1.27mm of course ;)
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[18:16:48] <ve7it> skunkworks, I am interested in the hydraulic servos on your lathe.. I used to do sawmill controls which had hydraulic servos... the servo valves typically took 20ma, 50ma or 100ma to drive easy to do with power op amp
[18:18:17] <skunkworks> I am hoping, the servos would require some huge electric ones to replace. the z axis is a 10+ piston radail.
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[18:19:57] <cradek> skunkworks: have any photos of this monster online?
[18:19:58] <danimal_garage> nice
[18:20:24] <skunkworks> well - I was going to look - but it seems my site is down.
[18:20:41] <skunkworks> I just got an email about a scheduled upgrade...
[18:20:43] <skunkworks> heh
[18:21:19] <cradek> I get emails from the administrator of timeguy.com saying my account will be disabled if I don't go type my password in to his website or something
[18:21:24] <ve7it> skunkworks, are they driven by servo valves like moog?
[18:23:28] <skunkworks> ve7it: I don't remember. The k&t did...
[18:25:37] <ve7it> skunkworks, those valves are worth gold.... like $2500/ device... 50ma current source can push tons of machine around... I used then to position 5' to 9' bandsaws
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[18:25:53] <mhaberler> cradek: maybe in conjunction with an interesting business opportunity in Africa ?
[18:26:00] <skunkworks> well - we have 4 of them from the k&t :)
[18:26:58] <cradek> resolvers are made of gold too
[18:27:05] <ve7it> skunkworks, they require very good hydraulic high pressure filters to keep them from getting contaminated
[18:27:39] <skunkworks> yes - this machine has all that already - pressure side filters and such. - I think they have one at each servo
[18:29:03] <ve7it> if you decide to use them, I can send you a drive circuit... could probably be driven with PP and PWM plus a few parts
[18:29:32] <cradek> would be really awesome to have a hydraulic machine run by emc2
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[18:29:59] <skunkworks> anything is possible :)
[18:30:01] <ve7it> should be very possible
[18:30:31] <skunkworks> I would buy another 5i20 - one should do the whole machine easy
[18:30:35] <cradek> what is the bandwidth of a system like that?
[18:31:43] <skunkworks> cradek: I hope you are not asking me.
[18:32:15] <ve7it> a few hundred hertz at best, but when you get several tons of machine oscillating, it really tests the hydraulic hoses and the mounting bolts
[18:32:24] <skunkworks> heh
[18:33:19] <skunkworks> I don't remember what the shuttle speeds where on that lathe - seems like 400ipm comes to mind
[18:33:39] <ve7it> I always wanted to automate an excavator... the new ones are pretty much fly by wire now........ dig your foundations with gcode!
[18:33:49] <skunkworks> heh
[18:34:03] <skunkworks> but you have the slip factor... although I suppose gps would help
[18:34:21] <skunkworks> or some sort of triagulation with becons
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[18:35:56] <ve7it> hydraulics are not very limited in speed, we did positioning with 2" cylinders at 60"/sec... about the limit for flinging boards around
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[18:43:40] <skunkworks> the z axis ball screw is about 6ft long and 3 inches in diameter
[18:44:09] <archivist> sexy
[18:44:28] <archivist> we want pics!
[18:44:39] <skunkworks> jeeze ;)
[18:45:01] <danimal_garage> ha
[18:45:03] <skunkworks> http://electronicsam.com/cgi-sys/defaultwebpage.cgi
[18:45:19] <skunkworks> they are working on it.
[18:45:54] <archivist> hmm please contact the administrator of the site involved...hey skunkworks get that fixed!
[18:45:59] <archivist> :)
[18:46:17] <cradek> Great Success !
[18:46:21] <archivist> another horrid cpanel installation I see
[18:46:30] <skunkworks> shared hosting.. I don't get to adminstrate it...
[18:46:37] <skunkworks> *administrate
[18:46:47] <cradek> administer
[18:46:58] <archivist> you do, but via cpanel :(
[18:47:15] <skunkworks> right- when it gets that far..
[18:47:30] <skunkworks> I cannot complain - this is the first major downtime that I can remember.
[18:47:46] <skunkworks> and it is only been a few hours
[18:50:00] <danimal_garage> crack some whips
[18:50:13] <skunkworks> already cracked
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[18:50:38] <danimal_garage> in this country, we don't make excuses, we make it happen.
[18:51:03] <skunkworks> what country are you in again? ;)
[18:51:34] <KimK> skunkworks: If they are pretty old, then what you probably have are servo valves, they are open loop and are indeed very sensitive to contamination, temperature, stiction, and foul moods. But in more recent years they have developed newer valves (servo-proportioning?) that position the proportioning spool in closed-loop and those are *much* improved. I don't know if I'd bother with the old ones.
[18:51:38] <KimK> skunkworks: Unless you just like hydraulic experimentation, servo faults, oily hands, and no production.
[18:52:33] <skunkworks> KimK: pfffhh - is that a challenge? ;)
[18:53:00] <cradek> haha
[18:53:01] <KimK> skunkworks: No, just a word to the wise.
[18:53:14] <cradek> does it currently work?
[18:54:09] <skunkworks> it did - but not 100% we hooked it up and played with it - the axis's worked but the logic to run the turrets didn't
[18:54:44] <cradek> that sounds pretty promising
[18:54:59] <skunkworks> yes
[18:55:39] <skunkworks> nothing a 5i20 and some opto22's can't fix ;)
[18:55:50] <ve7it> skunkworks, not sure if this is readable... http://www.flickr.com/photos/64111811@N00/5550360563/sizes/l/in/photostream/
[18:57:18] <skunkworks> ve7it: neat - thanks
[18:57:35] <skunkworks> you don't think using a small servo amp in current mode would work?
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[18:59:43] <ve7it> you dont need much current 100ma max drive or less... using a servo amp is way overkill... probably cant adjust them low enough and you do want current drive like a stepper coil to keep the response fast
[18:59:43] <KimK> Are you asking me? Oh, sure, driving the valve in current mode would work fine. The problem is that the @#$%^&* valve doesn't do what it's supposed to!
[19:00:10] <skunkworks> KimK: heh ;)
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[19:00:15] <ve7it> thats what emc is for... kick it harder
[19:00:42] <danimal_garage> lol
[19:00:58] <cradek> just crank up that servo cycle a bit faster...
[19:01:09] <danimal_garage> i need to find a good way to piggy back an encoder to my mill
[19:01:35] <danimal_garage> maybe if i convert it to belt drive
[19:02:06] <KimK> Hey, anything you can do to close the loop will help. The problem is, you're going to want to keep closing the loop more and more, until you get all the way back to the spool. Hence the new valve designs.
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[19:04:36] <pcw_home> A servo amp in torque mode would have a current loop but way too much current and current noise if you only have 100 mA FS
[19:05:02] <skunkworks> and I have no clue what the valve is at the moment
[19:07:42] <pcw_home> our 8I20 (30 A FS) has around 100 mA of current noise
[19:08:28] <KimK> Maybe this will help, 4th one down is a nice PDF: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=1920&bih=932&q=electronic+servo+proportioning+hydraulic+valves&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=
[19:08:58] <danimal_garage> i think i'll order some pulleys and belts and reduce the gearing on my mill by 1/3. then i'll make a mount so i can put an encoder on the ballscrew pulley and bypass the quadrature output from my drives so i don't loose count again.
[19:09:40] <danimal_garage> that should make life easier
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[19:13:51] <skunkworks> logger[psha]:
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[20:43:56] <skunkworks_> http://imagebin.org/index.php?mode=image&id=144373
[20:44:29] <skunkworks_> http://imagebin.org/index.php?mode=image&id=144374
[20:44:52] <skunkworks_> http://imagebin.org/index.php?mode=image&id=144375
[20:45:14] <skunkworks_> http://imagebin.org/144376
[20:45:26] <skunkworks_> http://imagebin.org/index.php?mode=image&id=144376
[20:45:53] <andypugh> Nice
[20:45:59] <danimal_garage> you think it's gunna clean up ok with all that rust?
[20:46:09] <danimal_garage> that thing is a beast, what's the swing?
[20:46:10] <fragalot> I want my sog S66 nao! :'(
[20:46:29] <fragalot> that is quite a bit of rust O.O
[20:46:48] <fragalot> though most of it looks cosmetic
[20:47:11] <skunkworks_> it is.
[20:47:26] <skunkworks_> it is mostly goo
[20:47:33] <skunkworks_> we got it that way
[20:47:51] <fragalot> Yeah, happens if you don't give your machine a good once-over once in a while
[20:48:26] <andypugh> Machine tools always look far dirtier and rustier in photos than in life.
[20:48:55] <fragalot> probably because you really only pay attention to "detail" on pictures
[20:50:10] <danimal_garage> yea my mill looks dirty in pics
[20:50:21] <danimal_garage> although it looks dirty in general as well
[20:50:29] <danimal_garage> probably because it is
[20:51:02] <skunkworks_> we actually had 2 of these lathes also - but took one appart for parts.
[20:52:56] <danimal_garage> whats the swing?
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[20:54:54] <andypugh> The top toolpost looks like the out-of-place tools will foul the work. However I cam sure they can't, when I think about it.
[20:55:23] <danimal_garage> depends on the radius of the part and length of the tools i guess
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[20:58:34] <skunkworks_> danimal_garage: I don't know off the tip of my head. big.
[20:59:14] <skunkworks_> top
[20:59:31] <danimal_garage> tip, like the coneheads?
[20:59:39] <danimal_garage> how big is the chuck?
[21:01:07] <danimal_garage> hmm lunch time
[21:02:05] <skunkworks_> danimal_garage: this help? http://imagebin.org/index.php?mode=image&id=144386
[21:02:17] <skunkworks_> standard unit of measurement
[21:03:01] <danimal_garage> nice. You get a lot of work for these big machines?
[21:03:15] <danimal_garage> i suspect you're not making match sticks and tooth pics
[21:05:21] <skunkworks_> heh - this is mainly a hobby. I don't know what the future will hold. (I have a ton of backlog projects - some that I hope to make money on 'hoep')
[21:05:26] <skunkworks_> 'hope'
[21:05:53] <danimal_garage> cool
[21:06:04] <danimal_garage> the sky's the limit with those machines
[21:06:09] <skunkworks_> yes
[21:07:28] <danimal_garage> where are you located again?
[21:07:39] <skunkworks_> near lacrosse wi
[21:07:55] <danimal_garage> ah
[21:08:05] <Tom_shop> is there alot of industry up there?
[21:08:18] <skunkworks_> no
[21:08:29] <Tom_shop> nothing spilling over from detroit?
[21:08:34] <danimal_garage> Trek Bicycles is up there
[21:08:39] <Tom_shop> or farm equipment
[21:08:46] <skunkworks_> well - I think there are a few machine shops - some big ones closed in the last 20 years
[21:10:22] <skunkworks_> (that is how we got the lathes.. cost us more to deliver them than it did to purchase)
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[21:13:21] <danimal_garage> uhaul lol
[21:13:31] <danimal_garage> just take out the insurance
[21:14:21] <skunkworks_> hey - my site is back up
[21:14:23] <skunkworks_> yay
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[21:39:33] <G38point4> Does anyone have a repository of g-code examples for emc?
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[21:40:43] <danimal_garage> i thought there was one in the nc_files folder?
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[21:55:10] <Jymmmm> theres the text and Tux I thought
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[22:04:31] <Jymmmm> Heh, forget Mesa and all the other I/O cards... Thunderbolt baby!!!
[22:08:05] <Jymmmm> If direct external PCI-e isn't fast enough, I don't know what is
[22:08:45] <andypugh> Mesa do direct external PCI-e
[22:09:24] <Jymmmm> and you can daisy chain them?
[22:09:46] <Jymmmm> and provide power to the device(s) too?
[22:10:40] <andypugh> You would have to ask Pete.
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[22:11:48] <Jymmmm> This wouldbe slick... some small pcb/driver per axis all interconnected via thunderbolt and 10Gbps speed bus
[22:13:55] <Jymmmm> http://www.thunderbolt-adapter.com/index.html
[22:16:31] <andypugh> RTAI for Darwin?
[22:16:43] <Jymmmm> good question
[22:17:19] <Jymmmm> But realize it's still a PC and I can load/run EMC from it
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[22:22:49] <andypugh> Yes. I do.
[22:24:05] <bill20r3> in emc can I pwm control a servo(like for RC models..) via a parallel port pin?
[22:24:31] <andypugh> Yes
[22:24:59] <bill20r3> excellent. I need a small actuator and that'd be perfect.
[22:26:35] <andypugh> I seem to recall that somebody wrote a HAL module to do it, but can't find it right now.
[22:27:52] <bill20r3> I'll google around, just knowing it's possible is plenty for now.
[22:28:57] <andypugh> You could use PWM with very narrow limits for the inputs, but it might be better to use oneshot and sim-encoder
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[22:31:15] <andypugh> siggen maybe ought to have a bit-type output for the square wave too.
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[22:37:38] <Jymmmm> andypugh: Imagine a Thunderbolt to I/O bridge, just enough I/O per axis sorta thing. Yu could just toss a bunch of them together like legos!
[22:40:34] <Jymmmm> andypugh: Maybe even a RT slave cpu and offload all the RT stuff to it
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[22:59:51] <PCW> Looks dreadful yet another USB with fall-out connectors to match
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[23:21:29] <JT-Shop> surprise, surprise, surprise... you need a special tool to get the flywheel off of the XL200R
[23:21:46] <mikeggg> a bigger hammer?
[23:22:05] <JT-Shop> no a 14 x 1.5 mm special bolt
[23:22:25] <mikeggg> like a jacking bolt?
[23:22:32] <JT-Shop> yea
[23:22:43] <PCW> 1.5 mm pitch?
[23:22:48] <JT-Shop> I'd make one but I can't harden steel... yet
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[23:23:15] <mikeggg> is there more than one? probably doesn't need to be hardened
[23:24:06] <JT-Shop> I would assume it needs to be hardened as all I have used in the past are at least 50 or so on the C scale... tested with my teeth
[23:24:53] <mikeggg> well, the jacking bolts that they give you to install a pulley on a power steering pump....those need to be hardened for sure
[23:25:24] <mikeggg> do these bolts go through the flywheel and then jack against the block somewhere?
[23:25:32] <Jymmmm> "Oh come on.... you KNOW the bolts from Home Depot will work just fine for that!"
[23:25:38] <mikeggg> heh
[23:25:55] <JT-Shop> no, it threads in the center and presses on the crank
[23:26:05] <mikeggg> aaahhhh
[23:26:19] <Jymmmm> pwr stering pulley on the crank shaft?!
[23:26:34] <mikeggg> how does that help you get it off the crank?
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[23:30:40] <JT-Shop> the flywheel is threaded with larger threads than the crank. the smaller bolt holds it on the larger one takes it off
[23:31:29] <andypugh> No need to be hardened for a use-once.
[23:31:44] <andypugh> Just wind it down tight, then bonk it with a hammer.
[23:31:49] <JT-Shop> if it falls off I'd say yea
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[23:32:08] <JT-Shop> I was going to use my impact wrench on it :)
[23:32:25] <andypugh> (don't try to jack it off with the screw, just apply a lot of preload and shock it off)
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[23:33:51] <JT-Shop> too late for $8 and a few other things I can't do without for some strange reason are on order
[23:34:34] <JT-Shop> I've used the hammer technique on B&S flywheels a few times
[23:35:04] <JT-Shop> I wonder if the impact will apply enough shock
[23:36:31] <Guest75615> sounds like someone is removing a flywheel
[23:37:04] <JT-Shop> yea, on my Honda XL200R the cam chain is slapping worn out
[23:37:24] <Guest75615> oh joy!
[23:37:34] <andypugh> Take a link out :-)
[23:37:40] <JT-Shop> I'm almost past the joy part
[23:37:44] <JT-Shop> no master link
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[23:38:39] <andypugh> Make a soft-link
[23:38:43] <bluntz> make one
[23:39:06] <JT-Shop> it's such a tiny little thing
[23:39:22] <andypugh> I have done a camchain using a soft-link. The alternative was removing the crank.
[23:39:56] <andypugh> You could get kits. Break the chain, use it to pull a new one through, rivet up the new link.
[23:39:58] <JT-Shop> I've done that on bigger bikes that is removed the bottom end to change the cam chain
[23:40:17] <JT-Shop> too easy to just pop off the flywheel and fish it up
[23:40:45] <andypugh> You say that, but...
[23:40:59] <JT-Shop> take the sprocket off the cam and you have plenty of slack, but you still have to fish it around the crank
[23:41:13] <JT-Shop> but... I'm not done yet so we will see
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[23:41:54] <JT-Shop> or I could take it to the old fart that started working on motorcycles in the 30's I think
[23:42:03] <bluntz> im with andy break the chain
[23:42:20] <JT-Shop> but it takes too long to get away from him
[23:42:44] <JT-Shop> I guess I'm a loner and won't break the chain yet as I have no possible way to mend it back
[23:43:11] <bluntz> tuse a nail set
[23:43:35] <bluntz> and if ur really paranoid
[23:43:53] <bluntz> heat treat it after reassembly
[23:44:01] <andypugh> If I was you, I would use the Hardinge.
[23:44:09] <JT-Shop> not possible, it is not layed out like a 4 banger where you can pop the top off and have nice access to the sprocket
[23:44:21] <bluntz> ahh
[23:44:26] <JT-Shop> the cam sprocket is in a deep hole
[23:44:33] <JT-Shop> about 32mm deep
[23:44:39] <andypugh> I had a CB100N
[23:44:56] <bluntz> i had an xr75
[23:45:17] <bluntz> cb 550
[23:45:20] <JT-Shop> my first bike was a Honda 50 super sport
[23:45:21] <mikeggg> CR125
[23:45:26] <andypugh> My 200cc offroader is camchain-free
[23:45:48] <bluntz> cb 250
[23:45:51] <TekniQue> andypugh: but is it a 4 stroke?
[23:45:51] <mikeggg> top end tear down is a lot easier on a two stroke
[23:46:02] <JT-Shop> the CB100 was light years ahead of the 50
[23:46:39] <bluntz> tkawi triple 2 stroke
[23:46:51] <TekniQue> I wonder why none of these dirt bike designers have caught a whiff of CVT transmissions
[23:46:54] <andypugh> TekniQue: No. I don't _know_ of any offroaders with gear-driven OHC, but I guess the old sidevalve bikes were free of camchains.
[23:46:59] <bluntz> suzuki 550 triple 2 banger
[23:47:16] <JT-Shop> I had the 380 triple
[23:47:21] <TekniQue> CVT is what you really need to make a two stroke work nice
[23:47:24] <bluntz> fun bikes
[23:47:33] <JT-Shop> http://www.motorera.com/honda/h0050/sport/sport.htm
[23:47:38] <andypugh> TekniQue: Because you need the engine braking, and choice of torque response?
[23:47:45] <TekniQue> I ride snowmobiles
[23:48:00] <TekniQue> the modern sleds have really good CVT systems
[23:48:06] <TekniQue> excellent response
[23:48:11] <bluntz> snowmobiles ride over water
[23:48:22] <TekniQue> the roller secondaries are spot on
[23:48:22] <bluntz> who knew?
[23:48:38] <TekniQue> lots of quad bikes use the same system
[23:48:41] <andypugh> I don't doubt it, but I have a feeling that the requirements are different. (I haven't ridden a snowmobile, though)
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[23:49:06] <JT-Shop> we had an Evenrude twin with reverse and built like a Sherman tank when I was smaller than now
[23:49:06] <bluntz> some drunks in canada ridin home from the bar
[23:49:19] <TekniQue> like I said, the snowmobile CVT is common in quad bikes too
[23:49:40] <bluntz> looks over at his bud and says a lil wet aye?
[23:50:04] <bluntz> as they realise their in the middle of a lake
[23:50:25] <TekniQue> andypugh: the snowmobiles ride so easily
[23:50:30] <TekniQue> no clutch, no gearstick
[23:50:36] <TekniQue> just push the throttle in and you go fast
[23:50:45] <bluntz> hehe
[23:51:04] <TekniQue> I rode a 240 horsepower 1200cc two stroke Arctic Cat the other day
[23:51:10] <andypugh> My offroad biking is racing, so I might have a different perspective.
[23:51:11] <bluntz> wow
[23:51:24] <JT-Shop> I always wanted a blue or yellow snowmobile...
[23:51:55] <bluntz> i always wanted to ice race
[23:52:06] <bluntz> ton my dirtbike
[23:52:14] <JT-Shop> just need some studs
[23:52:29] <bluntz> yea they just screamed
[23:52:47] <Jymmmm> You called?
[23:52:50] <bluntz> who wants some!
[23:53:29] <bluntz> do they still do that crazy shit?
[23:54:09] <bluntz> or is it all snowmobiles now
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