#emc | Logs for 2011-02-06

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[00:36:21] <skunkworks> damn - emc is awesome
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[00:39:38] <Sairon> heh
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[00:54:13] <frallzor> how fun, will put my machine to its biggest test maybe tomorrow!
[01:05:50] <Sairon> oh?
[01:06:48] <frallzor> or maybe my biggest test, its machine, itll do what I tell it to do :P
[01:06:53] <frallzor> *a
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[02:56:22] <elmo40> Debian 6.0 Squeeze has been released :)
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[07:56:14] <MattyMatt> is hot rolled steel more dimensionally stable than cold rolled?
[07:57:40] <MattyMatt> at normal working temps, it won't get hot again
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[08:36:58] <MattyMatt> elmo40 that's good news. Lenny is getting a bit old
[08:37:31] <MattyMatt> blender 2.46 :p
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[08:39:24] <MattyMatt> I'm almost tempted to set up my own debian repo for stuff I hate building
[08:40:23] <MattyMatt> it'd have to be invite-only tho :) I've only got 256k up
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[09:50:28] <MattyMatt> I've installed qt4-core and my first error is still Qhash : no such file
[09:50:54] <MattyMatt> I give up
[09:51:42] <psha> MattyMatt: you are trying to build blender?
[09:51:48] <MattyMatt> openscad
[09:51:59] <MattyMatt> oops sorry wrong channel :)
[09:52:15] <MattyMatt> openscad is #reprap's bag
[09:52:34] <psha> :)
[09:53:45] <MattyMatt> I would like CSG in blender tho, as it happens
[09:54:13] <MattyMatt> I think hell will freeze over before blender needs C++ libs, fortunately
[09:54:31] <MattyMatt> unless the new game engine people get their way
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[11:11:51] <MattyMatt> interesting http://store.makerbot.com/magnetic-linear-encoder-v1-2-kit.html
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[11:14:58] <MattyMatt> good morning awallin_
[11:15:20] <awallin_> hi
[11:15:21] <the_wench> hello awallin_, you have a question?
[11:15:32] <awallin_> the_wench: no :)
[11:16:05] <MattyMatt> she's got a sharp tongue :)
[11:17:46] <MattyMatt> I just failed to build openscad on Lenny. I wish the compiler was separate from the GUI
[11:18:23] <MattyMatt> it'd be a lot easier to build, and a lot easier to call from other programs
[11:18:32] <awallin_> I haven't tried openscad. screenshots look nice
[11:18:46] <awallin_> can it output triangles (stl-data) from the cad geometry
[11:18:50] <MattyMatt> I don't need another 3d editor/viewer
[11:18:56] <MattyMatt> yep
[11:19:09] <MattyMatt> that's its raison d'ètre
[11:19:30] <MattyMatt> éê there it is
[11:19:50] <awallin_> I might use it for cam-tests then... at some point
[11:20:31] <MattyMatt> I'm worried that as Heeks advances, they'll overlap unnecessarily
[11:20:53] <MattyMatt> and scad seems to overlap STEP/IGES already
[11:21:04] <MattyMatt> IGES in particular I think
[11:21:58] <MattyMatt> I hate creating files that only one program uses
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[11:23:33] <MattyMatt> unless it's blender :)
[11:24:03] <MattyMatt> that'll always be my core 3d app, I think
[11:24:36] <MattyMatt> it needs some CSG love tho
[11:25:02] * Sairon drinks some coffee.
[11:25:10] <Sairon> oi. good morning.
[11:25:39] <MattyMatt> which is why I wish openscad was a separate compiler that could be called from a blender script
[11:25:59] <MattyMatt> good morning to you
[11:26:25] <Sairon> how are you?
[11:27:13] <MattyMatt> as well as can be expected. I've had my coffee
[11:27:36] <Sairon> that's always a good thing
[11:27:38] <MattyMatt> in fact. I'm ready to go and try and borrow a welding hat. bbl
[11:27:45] <Sairon> oh, right
[11:27:47] <Sairon> have fun
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[11:48:39] <Jymmm> SWPLinux: now where are you?
[11:49:08] <SWPLinux> Brussels
[11:49:11] <SWPLinux> FOSDEM :)
[11:50:14] <Jymmm> SWPLinux: You're not a developer, you're an engineer!
[11:51:16] <SWPLinux> is is too
[11:51:19] <SWPLinux> I
[11:51:21] <SWPLinux> is
[11:52:02] <SWPLinux> in fact, I already made a contribution to libreoffice today
[11:52:16] <SWPLinux> (I told them about some errors on the "getting started development" page :) )
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[11:53:08] <Jymmm> SWPLinux: There is nothign on the schedule that you're interested in, so why you there?
[11:53:27] <SWPLinux> I'm here for the things I'm interested in on the schedule
[11:54:03] <SWPLinux> plus I like getting frequent flyer miles
[11:54:50] <Jymmm> SWPLinux: Oh, I just saw the embedded crap
[11:54:59] <SWPLinux> I wonder how many hundreds of megs this will be
[11:55:13] <SWPLinux> yeah, there's not much of that, but there are things of interest
[11:55:22] <SWPLinux> the next thing on my list is a USB over ethernet talk ...
[11:56:30] <Jymmm> *rolls eyes*
[12:00:16] <MattyMatt> my big wish for USB on Linux is automount that works
[12:01:35] <MattyMatt> I've simply stopped using USB sticks on this machine. it needs too much discipline
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[12:03:57] <SWPLinux> automount always works for me (for USB drives), I'm not sure what's happening to you
[12:04:34] <MattyMatt> nor me, but I'll try again with debian 6.0 when I get a new hdd
[12:04:50] <SWPLinux> where it sometimes fails is with card readers that accept many card types - sometimes some cards aren't recognized (the reader stays plugged in all the time, the cards are inserted and removed like floppies)
[12:05:30] <Jymmm> whats a floppy?
[12:06:39] <MattyMatt> it's like a 0.014GB sd card, only bigger and slower. they used them last century :)
[12:06:45] <SWPLinux> sorry, floopy
[12:06:55] <SWPLinux> last millenium even
[12:07:24] <SWPLinux> and it's 0.0014 GB :)
[12:07:28] <MattyMatt> I missed a 0 out there too. 0.0014GB
[12:07:32] <SWPLinux> heh
[12:07:39] <Sairon> uh
[12:07:46] <Sairon> someone just asked what a floppy is?
[12:07:50] <Sairon> er, what size?
[12:07:53] <SWPLinux> he was joking
[12:07:59] <SWPLinux> 8", of course
[12:08:03] <Sairon> sometimes i wonder anymore
[12:08:17] <jthornton> no that was Jymmm
[12:08:44] <Jymmm> Sairon: You do realize that system dont come with floppys for quite a few years now, right?
[12:09:10] <SWPLinux> the first system I built without a floppy was either last year or late 2009
[12:09:26] <SWPLinux> err, no - mid-2009 (the camera server PC)
[12:10:03] * Sairon just looked down.
[12:10:11] <MattyMatt> force of habit
[12:10:13] <Sairon> Guess you got a point. This machine doesn't have a sloppy.
[12:10:17] <Sairon> never noticed.
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[12:10:26] <Sairon> er , floppy
[12:10:26] <SWPLinux> man. if it takes this long to download the source, I wonder how long it will take to compile (on this laptop)
[12:10:42] <SWPLinux> it might be faster to wait until I get home Monday night and run it on the phenom x6
[12:11:24] <SWPLinux> considering that you have to look really hard to find a USB stick that's less than the capacity of ~200 floppies, it's not surprising
[12:12:31] <Sairon> i kinda wonder how long HD's with magnetic platters will be in the world
[12:12:56] <SWPLinux> hmmm. I should probably put all that stuff I have on LS120 disks onto something less obsolete
[12:13:00] <Sairon> seems like chip-based stuff is catching up on alot of metrics
[12:13:06] <MattyMatt> the clock is ticking already
[12:13:16] <SWPLinux> other than longevity and number of writes, chips are great
[12:13:25] <jthornton> http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/johnplctech/Shop%20Addition/P1010084.jpg
[12:13:46] <MattyMatt> in theory rotating media will always have the density edge
[12:13:49] <Sairon> oh, there's a number of writes limit for chips?
[12:13:54] <SWPLinux> yes
[12:14:06] <SWPLinux> generally in the several thousand range, but still there
[12:14:26] <SWPLinux> and they are also rated for data retention time - about 5 years for some
[12:14:33] <SWPLinux> 10 or so is also common
[12:14:39] <Sairon> i can see that being a problem
[12:14:45] <SWPLinux> yep
[12:14:46] <Sairon> at least the number of writes deal
[12:14:53] <Sairon> esp. with windows swapping out constantly
[12:15:06] <SWPLinux> yeah, you don't want to use an SSD for swap
[12:15:21] <Jymmm> just turn it off
[12:15:54] <MattyMatt> actuall with a small 2 axis bot inside, square platters could store more than rotating media
[12:16:03] <Jymmm> systems today come with lots of ram, no need for swap unless working on VERY large files
[12:16:42] <SWPLinux> MattyMatt: NeXT tried that, didn't work out so well for them :)
[12:16:46] <MattyMatt> or very many (says the man with 60+ tabs open constantly)
[12:19:04] <MattyMatt> 3d chips will see off magnetic disks for good I think. it's all ready started with MLC flash
[12:19:48] <SWPLinux> except that MLC has worse data retention and fewer write cycles than SLC
[12:19:54] <SWPLinux> but it is cheaper
[12:19:56] <MattyMatt> ah details :)
[12:20:36] <Sairon> so what are your thoughts on 3d printers?
[12:21:01] <MattyMatt> my first mendel is almost ready to run
[12:21:22] <SWPLinux> hmmm. maybe I should have gotten a 256GB SSD for this laptop. the 128 may not cut it
[12:21:32] <MattyMatt> that's more of a toy than anything tho
[12:21:43] <SWPLinux> too bad they're so damned expensive (like the same amount as the laptop itself)
[12:21:59] <MattyMatt> meh. I'm saving up for a 64GB pata one for my old thinkpad. I've got 20GB atm
[12:22:41] <MattyMatt> and that costs almost as much as the laptop :)
[12:22:44] <SWPLinux> don't save for too long. PATA won't be available for too long
[12:23:22] <MattyMatt> I expect they will, but the premium will get worse
[12:23:47] <SWPLinux> well, that's the thing about saving for too long
[12:23:53] <MattyMatt> yep
[12:24:08] <MattyMatt> in a year or two, it'll be better to scrap the lappy
[12:24:43] <SWPLinux> they're around $200 right now, which is nearly double the cost of a SATA the same size
[12:25:08] <MattyMatt> there's a place on ebay a bit cheaper than that
[12:25:15] <SWPLinux> I have some PATA hard drives, if you're interested. I think the largest is 80GB or 160GB
[12:25:18] <SWPLinux> ah
[12:25:37] <MattyMatt> did you bring them to europe with you? :)
[12:25:41] <SWPLinux> nope
[12:26:13] <MattyMatt> yeah pata 2.5" go for silly prices even second hand now
[12:26:19] <SWPLinux> I think one or two mighe even have Ubuntu 10.04 on them already
[12:26:27] <SWPLinux> mogth
[12:26:35] <SWPLinux> might
[12:26:35] <SWPLinux> ha!
[12:27:06] <SWPLinux> damn. now I have to go to the bathroom, but there's still source downloading
[12:27:09] <MattyMatt> you could buy deadish laptops on ebay and use the drives to turn them into emc machines
[12:27:20] <SWPLinux> if laptops worked well, yeah
[12:27:26] <MattyMatt> broken screens & hdd are the commonest faults
[12:28:16] <MattyMatt> are laptops so crap when run headless? isn't it just the gpu that slows them down?
[12:29:00] <SWPLinux> nope
[12:29:09] <SWPLinux> it's more about power management and that kind of thing
[12:29:28] <SWPLinux> ACPI and SMM (system management mode), for thermal control
[12:29:57] <MattyMatt> yeah too much grief I guess
[12:30:17] <SWPLinux> yep
[12:30:22] <MattyMatt> compared to buying a D550 mini-itx
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[12:30:57] <SWPLinux> I was talking to one of the Coreboot guys, and I mentioned that I use RTAI, and his first comment was "so you need to get rid of SMM, right?"
[12:31:19] <SWPLinux> (which wasn't what I was going to say, but it was interesting that he knew about the problem)
[12:32:12] <SWPLinux> Coreboot can do that - it won't use SMM or ACPI CPU management at all if you don't want it to (or maybe It can't even if you do want it, I don't really know)
[12:32:20] <MattyMatt> so a lappy that is supported by corboot would make a better emc machine?
[12:32:31] <SWPLinux> yes, if there were any
[12:32:36] <Valen> depends on details I'd say
[12:32:53] <SWPLinux> actually, I think there may be one or two, but laptops are very difficult to get to work
[12:32:57] <Valen> if something takes over the bus for a while the bios isn't going to fix that
[12:33:38] <SWPLinux> they're proprietary, undocumented, have multiple processors that often run off the same flash (one of them controls charging, etc), and they don't have socketed flash chips, so they're hard to recover if you screw something up
[12:34:17] <MattyMatt> fair enough
[12:36:23] <MattyMatt> repraps are heading in the direction of arm based controllers. mostly with no OS at all but they could run RTAI
[12:36:50] <MattyMatt> the current dev is all using the philips mcu version tho. 64k ram
[12:38:46] <MattyMatt> I'd rather see a 4 chip board. cpu, flash, ram & fpga :)
[12:40:10] <SWPLinux> I'd rather see my coffee cup full instead of empty
[12:40:28] <MattyMatt> at the moment repraps have their own controller, but they still need a PC to run them
[12:40:58] <MattyMatt> kinda defeats the object, IMO
[12:41:45] <MattyMatt> OK it could be any PC running any OS, but it's still there
[12:42:46] <MattyMatt> 2nd attempt to go borrow a welding hat
[12:43:09] <MattyMatt> (or 12th, if you count the rest of the week)
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[13:42:25] <L84Supper> AMD has been supporting coreboot again, Fusion support was released and we're waiting for the Fusion notebooks to make it to store shelves
[13:43:05] <L84Supper> there are also a few Fusion mini-itx boards out soon
[13:47:46] <L84Supper> ArchMobile will also support RTAI on ARM shortly, the main problem with ARM soc's is a lack of high speed real time hardware bus, most just offer USB, SPI, I2C, serial or ethernet
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[14:30:36] <L84Supper> MattyMatt: one possibility might be the new OLPC XO-1.75, it uses a Marvell 610 and a SDIO interface http://wiki.laptop.org/go/XO-1.75
[14:32:01] <L84Supper> MattyMatt: if they hooked an irq to the external SD card slot then an FPGA could be interfaced there
[14:34:27] <L84Supper> I'll ask the OLPC devs, they were in Taiwan last week debugging the second spin of proto's
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[14:37:33] <MattyMatt> they might be interested in making CNC For Africa™
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[14:38:48] <MattyMatt> same screen, chipset and OS, but in a square box with 4 DC motor drivers
[14:39:12] <MattyMatt> which drive any 12V motor from scrap cars
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[14:40:57] <MattyMatt> I'm not sure they enjoy being that patronised any more :) africa has rich spots in the cities now
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[14:48:31] <L84Supper> the XO1.75 will have a hand crank for charing, if we add a motor controller then it might be come a perpetually recharging netbook :)
[14:49:12] <L84Supper> heh hand crank for charging vs charing
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[14:55:56] <elmo40> MattyMatt: 2 years old,i believe (lenny)
[14:59:36] <MattyMatt> yeah same age as my machine :) I only installed it to see what it was like :)
[14:59:51] <MattyMatt> I think I've only rebooted twice since then
[15:00:07] <elmo40> lol
[15:00:32] <elmo40> i did the plunge into Sidux back in the day... it borked my system real good :P
[15:05:39] <emcrules_> where is the manpage for hal_input?
[15:07:21] <elmo40> can you type: man hal_input?
[15:08:01] <Sairon> oi
[15:10:39] <emcrules_> from where?
[15:13:03] <elmo40> in the console?
[15:13:40] <elmo40> try: man hald
[15:13:49] <elmo40> or: man hal<TAB>
[15:14:09] <elmo40> press tab for tab completion. it will come up with a list of items
[15:14:34] <elmo40> oops, i meant: man hal<TAB><TAB>
[15:14:39] <elmo40> press it twice
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[15:22:32] <Sairon> whoa
[15:22:39] <Sairon> your command line has tab completion?
[15:22:52] <Sairon> omg
[15:22:53] <Sairon> mine does
[15:23:00] * Sairon is stunned.
[15:25:40] <Sairon> incidentally
[15:25:56] <Sairon> what are the cons to having a machine with a bronze spindle bearing
[15:27:18] <Sairon> seems to me that alot of lathe spindles had either bronze or babbit
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[16:07:09] <archivist> cons, play,wear, need adjustment and constant (drip often) oil supply, pro can be accurate
[16:07:37] <archivist> another pro is high load ability
[16:08:36] <skunkworks> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNE3kY_gjB8
[16:11:41] <Sairon> hmm, decent
[16:11:56] <Sairon> i'm getting motivated
[16:12:03] <Sairon> i found a local supply of coal
[16:12:07] <Sairon> and a place to get iron ore
[16:12:12] <Sairon> :)
[16:12:14] <Sairon> why not, eh?
[16:12:55] <archivist> charcoal, lime and blast furnace to finish
[16:14:06] <Sairon> what's the charcoal for?
[16:15:04] <archivist> coal does burn as hot
[16:15:22] <Sairon> i thought that's what the coke was for
[16:15:27] <archivist> charcoal or coke
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[16:16:19] <Sairon> i grew up in an area known for it's past coke production
[16:16:28] <Sairon> so i think i'll just do coke for the sake of it
[16:16:44] <archivist> sell the gas you produce
[16:16:53] <Sairon> oh?
[16:17:00] <Sairon> from the coaking?
[16:17:05] <archivist> yes
[16:17:13] <Sairon> what's in it?
[16:17:45] <archivist> you get town gas and coal tar as a result of coking
[16:18:11] <Sairon> what are those useful for?
[16:18:50] <archivist> coal tar then is distilled lots of products from that
[16:19:57] <Sairon> i might try to make a couple machines
[16:20:04] <Sairon> just for the hell of it
[16:20:10] <Sairon> and little crap
[16:20:17] <Sairon> like belt buckles
[16:20:34] <Sairon> cast "Made in Pittsburgh" in them
[16:20:44] <Sairon> the belt buckles would sell like hotcakes here
[16:21:06] <Sairon> oi.
[16:21:14] <Sairon> maybe that's a decent marketing this
[16:21:17] <Sairon> er, thing
[16:21:36] <Sairon> make cast iron belt buckles instead of business cards
[16:21:39] <Sairon> give them away
[16:21:51] <archivist> the greens will have you shut down in minutes
[16:23:09] <Sairon> lol
[16:25:53] <Sairon> my wife will totally leave me over this
[16:26:04] <Sairon> she hates it when i do dangerous stuff
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[17:11:21] <Guest702> first try at linux and emc. emc locks ups the entire box. system is 1.7ghz pentium 4, 1 gb ram, imbedded video, dell, optiplex GX240. What should I look at?
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[17:16:24] <skunkworks> can you run the latency test?
[17:18:02] <Tom_itx> what happens if you try to load the latency test and nothing happens?
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[17:18:44] <Tom_itx> i ran it on one of my pc104's and nothing happened
[17:19:00] <jrshaul> Anyone here know a good material for learning how to run a CNC mill?
[17:19:10] <Tom_itx> wax
[17:19:11] <jrshaul> Styrofoam is cheap, but you have to mill it awfully slowly....
[17:19:19] <Tom_itx> machining wax
[17:19:26] <Tom_itx> re'useable too
[17:19:39] <jrshaul> Is the homemade stuff any good?
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[17:21:06] <Guest702> The latency test works and reports 10426.....It does not cause any problems
[17:23:57] <Tom_L> http://www.travers.com/skulist.asp?RequestData=CA_Search&navPath=All+Products%2F%2F%2F%2FUserSearch1%3Dwax&q=block+id+78188+and+class+level3+id+28127&minPrice=$9.86
[17:25:14] <Tom_L> or wood
[17:25:33] <Tom_L> but wood isn't re
[17:25:34] <Tom_L> useable
[17:26:31] <Tom_L> i dunno how it differs from parafin wax
[17:26:41] <Tom_L> it probably has a higher melting temp
[17:27:57] <Tom_L> it could be the same stuff used in casting
[17:28:34] <Tom_L> http://www.machinablewax.com/machinable_wax_product_2.htm
[17:28:39] <Tom_L> maybe cheaper there
[17:31:38] <L84Supper> http://www.amazon.com/IGI-4630-Parafflex-Paraffin-Slab/dp/B001QMZDG2/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1297013396&sr=8-9
[17:32:04] <L84Supper> or try the scented for more pleasant milling experience http://www.amazon.com/Paraffin-Wax-Refill-Lavender/dp/B0002VALQK/ref=tag_dpp_lp_edpp_img_in
[17:32:18] <Tom_L> Machinable wax is an extremely hard wax that has been formulated to deliver exceptional machining properties including high resolution detail. Since it is harder and has a higher melting temperature than most other waxes, machinable wax can be machined, cut, or shaped using standard metalworking or woodworking equipment.
[17:33:43] <Tom_L> http://www.machinablewax.com/recycle_machinablewax.html
[17:33:54] <L84Supper> I wonder how much scent their machinable wax will hold?
[17:34:15] <Tom_L> my guess is that it would alter the machinability properties of it
[17:34:26] <Tom_L> it is a hard wax
[17:34:29] <Tom_L> i've used it
[17:35:11] <Guest702> mdf particle boards works for some testing
[17:35:43] <Tom_L> thing about the wax is it's reusable
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[17:40:41] <L84Supper> used MDF + PVA in a cake pan = recycled MDF ;p
[17:42:16] <Tom_L> some plastics are quite abrasive and hard on cutters
[17:43:18] <Tom_L> wax is a natural lubricant
[17:45:51] <skunkworks> Guest702: what version of emc and what config?
[17:46:11] <Sairon> hmm
[17:46:19] <Sairon> i always wondered about machinable wax
[17:46:22] <Sairon> worth the money?
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[17:46:42] <Tom_L> if you have expensive material you are machining it definitely is
[17:46:56] <Sairon> huh.
[17:47:08] <Tom_L> you wouldn't want to scrap a block of ti
[17:47:11] <Tom_L> for instance
[17:47:13] <Sairon> true, true
[17:47:24] <Sairon> and you can reuse it?
[17:47:33] <Tom_L> just melt it and remold it
[17:47:42] <Tom_L> the video is on the last link i posted
[17:47:58] <Sairon> does it get crushed in a vice?
[17:48:10] <Tom_L> you can crush anything
[17:48:13] <Tom_L> use your head
[17:48:24] <Sairon> good point
[17:48:24] <Tom_L> it is a hard wax
[17:48:35] <Sairon> i might have to try that
[17:48:39] <Tom_L> it is purpose made
[17:48:43] <Sairon> i do prototypes and R&D
[17:48:52] <Sairon> so, it's not so much cost of materials
[17:48:58] <Tom_L> might be well worth it for you
[17:48:59] <Sairon> it's the thing of getting it right the first time
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[17:49:32] <Tom_L> clean the machine before you use it and you won't contaminate it for remelting
[17:49:38] <Sairon> ok.
[17:50:44] <Tom_L> http://www.freemansupply.com/MachinableWax.htm
[17:50:49] <Tom_L> another source for it
[17:51:17] <Tom_L> no coolant required or recomended
[17:52:32] <Sairon> hmm, they don't have prices
[17:52:37] <Sairon> they want to quote
[17:52:43] <Sairon> i looked it up on McMaster
[17:52:44] <Tom_L> i just noticed that
[17:52:59] <Sairon> prices look pretty decent
[17:53:00] <Tom_L> it's available nearly everywhere
[17:53:15] <Sairon> especially if, like you say, you're melting it down for re-use
[17:53:56] <Tom_L> won't dull cutters either unlike other prototype materials
[17:54:12] <Sairon> that's awesome
[17:54:23] <Sairon> alot of the stuff i do i polypropelene
[17:54:24] <Tom_L> wax is a natural lubricant
[17:54:45] <Sairon> due to the chemical properties being important to the people i work for
[17:54:55] <Sairon> polypro and certain varieties of stainless
[17:55:11] <Sairon> but i only order stock for a specific project
[17:55:26] <Sairon> because i could never even begin to guess what to keep on hand
[17:55:38] <Sairon> this wax stuff could rock
[17:55:49] <Sairon> i'll just mold it to the size of stock i plan on ordering
[17:55:58] <Sairon> verify my toolpaths
[17:56:04] <Tom_L> http://www.great-lakes-training.com/machinable_wax.html
[17:56:08] <Sairon> next day material arrives, and i'm good to go
[17:56:33] <Sairon> thanks for the tip
[17:56:50] <Tom_L> that last one may be better pricing, not sure
[17:57:43] <Tom_L> likely affiliated with machinablewax.com
[17:57:44] <Sairon> i almost fell over at the prices
[17:57:52] <Sairon> till i saw it was for 60 pcs
[17:57:56] <Sairon> er, 50 pcs
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[18:06:12] <andypugh> Anyone know a bit about PCB design? I am curious about ground planes. They seem to have become very popular.
[18:06:32] <Tom_L> yes, a little
[18:06:55] <archivist> higher frequencies require a ground plane, transmission line theory
[18:06:56] <andypugh> I assume that they are for shielding?
[18:07:00] <Tom_L> yes
[18:07:05] <archivist> that too
[18:07:05] <andypugh> How high?
[18:07:31] <archivist> video freq need a ground plane
[18:07:36] <Tom_L> proper ground traces are important too. generally what is known as a star ground configuration is best
[18:07:51] <andypugh> I have been designing a board to plug into an arduino.
[18:08:05] <Tom_L> every chip gnd trace goes back to the source supply rather than from chip to chip to chip
[18:08:21] <andypugh> I have decided to make almost the whole bottom layer into a 0V layer.
[18:08:28] <Tom_L> also, keep analog and digital separate
[18:08:29] <andypugh> Sensible?
[18:08:51] <L84Supper> andypugh: 2 layer pcb?
[18:08:52] <Tom_L> usually vcc is on one layer and gnd on another
[18:08:54] <archivist> usually the top is ground so you can get at tracks to fix
[18:09:29] <andypugh> So, it would make sense to fill the top layer with GND and the bottom with Vcc?
[18:10:19] <andypugh> I have only run 3 tracks on the bottom layer, and one of those is my 10kHz PWM. I am not sure if that is sensible.
[18:10:48] <andypugh> But the alternative routed it all over the place, which seemed unwise.
[18:11:03] <Tom_L> should be ok
[18:11:41] <Tom_L> khz isn't as critical as Mhz
[18:12:05] <L84Supper> andypugh: depends on how many layers and what impedance you're trying to match along with the trace and spacing you're using core a prepreg thickness and dielectric constants plus copper thickness
[18:12:11] <archivist> less routing nightmare if top tracks are 90 deg to other layer
[18:12:13] <Tom_L> also, use bypass caps at the pwr pins of each chip
[18:13:07] <emcrules_> So I have connected the pokeys to emc and followed all instructions using hal_input. Emc opens up and i can see all the input pins in hal> Just cant get a pin to change state. any ideas?
[18:14:07] <L84Supper> http://www.pcdandf.com/cms/magazine/212/5255-pcb-stack-up-analysis-and-design-parts-1-and-2
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[18:18:55] <L84Supper> http://www.altera.com/technology/signal/board-design-guidelines/sgl-bdg-index.html Altera actually has some pretty good app notes on PCB design
[18:19:35] <andypugh> What I have now is https://picasaweb.google.com/bodgesoc/Gibbs#5570642752497936418
[18:20:13] <andypugh> But I think I will move the amp down nearer the source pin.
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[18:23:09] <IchGuckLive> hi all in the USA
[18:23:16] <IchGuckLive> superbowl sunday
[18:23:24] <IchGuckLive> party is on here in Germany
[18:23:44] <Tom_L> andypugh, make sure the traces will handle the current
[18:23:48] <IchGuckLive> live event starts at 2330 at the AFB
[18:24:14] <andypugh> There is hadrly any current in this board.
[18:24:26] <Tom_L> so i see
[18:24:41] <Tom_L> you said 'amp' and i heard 'lotsa current'
[18:24:55] <andypugh> Though I suppose I ought to check the excitation current on the primary windings.
[18:25:19] <andypugh> It's an Op-Amp acting as a combined active filter and buffer.
[18:25:33] <Tom_L> i generally try to use .010" traces on signal stuff unless i really need smaller
[18:26:28] <andypugh> Those tracks are all 0.015"
[18:26:37] <Tom_L> that's fine
[18:27:20] <Tom_L> what cad package are you using to draw it?
[18:38:25] <andypugh> I am using DesignSpark which is a Freebie linked to RS components.
[18:39:15] <andypugh> http://www.designspark.com/pcb
[18:39:25] <Tom_L> you could run those top 3 signal traces on the bottom layer if you wanted. route them thru the pins and under the others
[18:39:46] <Tom_L> that would avoid any conflict with a big bolthead stripping the trace
[18:39:54] <andypugh> That is where they started off, wiggling betwixt and between.
[18:40:09] <Tom_L> i use eagle
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[18:40:37] <andypugh> I have Eagle too, but don't really get on with the user interface.
[18:40:49] <Tom_L> i'm used to it
[18:40:58] <andypugh> Though Eagle does have the advantage on working native on my Mac
[18:41:04] <skunkworks> it has a learning curve.. Like snow boarding.. ;)
[18:41:26] <skunkworks> but once you get it - it is really nice to draw things up.
[18:41:46] <Tom_L> i've used it since around ver 2.xx
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[18:44:22] <cradek> no
[18:46:46] <andypugh> I am beginning to appreciated through-hole resistors, they made handy gaps in tracks to lead other tracks through.
[18:47:22] <Tom_L> you can run traces thru any of those pins you have
[18:47:47] <Tom_L> probably not .010" though
[18:47:55] <Tom_L> .008 should
[18:48:23] <Tom_L> does that package have a design rule checker?
[18:48:52] <Tom_L> it'll warn you if you get too close
[18:48:53] <andypugh> It does, yes.
[18:49:06] <andypugh> And it already spotted a few things.
[18:49:33] <andypugh> I guess there is no reason at all that a +5V DC track shouldn't run through the ground plane?
[18:49:33] <Tom_L> is this your first board?
[18:49:39] <Tom_L> doesn't look like it
[18:50:12] <andypugh> No, I have done a couple of others, but this is the first where I was bothered about signal integrity.
[18:50:34] <Tom_L> 5v thru the gnd should be ok, try to keep the plane connected
[18:50:47] <andypugh> And my first attempt at a ground plane (which this software just does, with thermal breaks and everything)
[18:52:07] <andypugh> Hmm, 5V does make a big slot in the GND plane, probably 3/4 of the board width
[18:52:50] <Tom_L> is it surrounded on both ends?
[18:52:56] <Tom_L> it should be ok
[18:53:30] <Tom_L> the one going from the top to the middle right?
[18:55:07] <Tom_L> run it around the edge and in from the side
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[18:57:28] <L84Supper> if you shift that SIP left you could route the 5V trace on the other layer
[18:58:08] <Tom_L> what sip?
[18:58:23] <Tom_L> i thought those were arduino pinouts
[18:58:31] <Tom_L> they can't move
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[19:14:46] <alex_joni> yay, warmer times are here
[19:22:24] <coldelectrons> that's just nature lulling you into a false sense of security before it drops the final six feet of snow on you
[19:25:32] <archivist> I just bought some super warm socks ready for the next ice age
[19:26:51] <Tom_L> move to alaska and you won't notice it
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[19:29:24] <coldelectrons> Does anyone sell solar-powered socks yet?
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[20:37:03] <L84Supper> fungus powered socks
[20:37:37] <archivist> they are the self walkers
[20:41:41] <L84Supper> RTAI is going into Linaro http://www.linaro.org/ so when the ARM netbooks and tablets with PCIe ship they will be ready for FPGA cards like the Mesa 3X20
[20:42:41] <L84Supper> the Mesa 3X20's are bit pricey though
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[20:45:51] <L84Supper> http://www.xilinx.com/products/ipcenter/DO-DI-PCIE-PIPE.htm Xilinx has a PCIe endpoint now for the low cost Spartan 3's so a <$100 board should be doable
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[20:52:23] <jrshaul> Has anyone here done any lost wax/lost foam casting?
[20:59:23] <Tom_L> i think it would be fun to try but no
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[21:10:39] <seb_kuzminsky> jrshaul: i've done a tiny bit of sand casting with wooden patterns, but no investment casting yet
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[21:11:00] <jrshaul> I've done some jewelry casting, and I just got access to a giant kiln suitable for melting down old bell-housings.
[21:11:01] <jrshaul> :D
[21:11:09] <seb_kuzminsky> wow
[21:11:18] <jrshaul> Well, it's not that big. They're small bellhousings.
[21:11:22] <seb_kuzminsky> heh
[21:11:25] <seb_kuzminsky> i should hope so
[21:11:34] <jrshaul> I'd like to cast some aluminum hollow spheres.
[21:11:44] <seb_kuzminsky> how do you do that?
[21:11:45] <skunkworks> grandpa would just cut them up with a band saw :)
[21:12:20] <jrshaul> One way is to make an internal and external mould, but these will have a hole in them anyway.
[21:13:01] <jrshaul> I'm told that wax requires a vacuum or centrifuge, and that foam doesn't. I have no idea why this is.
[21:13:58] <jrshaul> Another option is just to cast a giant ingot over a hemisphere to form the inside of the sphere, and then mill out the outside. Goodness knows the aluminum isn't costing much. :D
[21:14:19] <skunkworks> I have seen foam casting done at a few of the fests. Fenn on here also does it
[21:15:11] <jrshaul> Hmm.
[21:15:42] <jrshaul> The other option is just cast an enormous aluminum ingot and then mill out the inside and outside, but that's probably overkill :D
[21:15:59] <Tom_L> jrshaul, probably so the wax would exit the mould
[21:16:07] <Tom_L> the foam just burns up
[21:16:11] <jrshaul> I thought you were supposed to burn out the mold first?
[21:16:14] <jrshaul> Or do most people not do this?
[21:16:22] <Tom_L> no idea
[21:16:46] <skunkworks> from what I have seen - the foam burns out when the AL is poured :)
[21:17:04] <Tom_L> my first attempt would be a wax mold and i would melt out the wax before the pour but i dunno and haven't read up on it
[21:17:35] <mrsunshine_> with lost foam you just pour the meal over the foam
[21:17:38] <mrsunshine_> and wham
[21:17:47] <mrsunshine_> perfect casting, if it was hot enough long enough :P
[21:18:08] <Valen> depends on the foam and what your doing
[21:18:13] <mrsunshine_> true :P
[21:18:24] <Valen> some foams make too much gas and make your casting porous
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[21:19:33] <jrshaul> Foam does seem to machine fairly nicely.
[21:22:23] <Valen> if you have the right foam it seems to be like machining air
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[21:23:43] <jrshaul> What's the best stuff?
[21:24:28] <Tom_L> that machinable wax can be used for precision moulds
[21:26:43] <jrshaul> Can't afford it. :(
[21:35:42] <fenn> jrshaul: a hemisphere of uniform thickness is probably the easiest thing to cast
[21:36:09] <Valen> I haven't done foam for casting
[21:36:19] <fenn> the best foam is pink or blue insulation (EPS)
[21:36:35] <fenn> but the white bead styrofoam smells nicers
[21:38:40] <jrshaul> fenn: It's going to be a lumpy sphere, but close enough...
[21:38:40] <jrshaul> :D
[21:39:25] <jrshaul> IIRc, you can get open- and closed-cell EPS, though I believe both BlueCor and the owens-corning equivalent are both of the same type.
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[21:44:15] <fenn> i dont know why anyone would want open cell EPS
[21:46:42] <coldelectrons> machinable wax recipe: 1 part parafin wax, 1 part LDPE (shopping bags)
[21:47:08] <coldelectrons> or was is 4 parts LDPE...I'd have to check my notes somewhere
[21:47:51] <mrsunshine_> shopping bags?
[21:47:54] <pcw_home> How how do you need parafin to be to dissolve LDPE?
[21:48:00] <mrsunshine_> what, you melt it ?
[21:48:09] <pcw_home> (How hot)
[21:48:41] <coldelectrons> I just got a baby fryer from the store, melt the wax in it, and put it up on high
[21:49:03] <pcw_home> outside I hope...
[21:49:13] <coldelectrons> If you start seeing white vapors, that's too hot - you're close to the flash point of the parafin
[21:49:18] <coldelectrons> Yes
[21:49:48] <coldelectrons> To have fewer bubbles, chop up the shopping bags
[21:50:16] <mrsunshine_> 4 parts wax, 1 part polythene film
[21:50:21] <mrsunshine_> says a recepie i found
[21:50:33] <coldelectrons> Bubbles are a PITA to get rid of, and chopping lets you put in a bit at a time
[21:50:50] <coldelectrons> Don't use your wife's fryer ;)
[21:51:39] <jrshaul> baby fryer?
[21:51:47] <jrshaul> The other other other white meat...
[21:52:00] <coldelectrons> Small fryer, then
[21:52:16] <jrshaul> coldelectrons: The problem with that is that I'm not sure how it'll work with investment casting.
[21:52:30] <jrshaul> Does anyone know if lost foam works with urethane or anything?
[21:53:07] <coldelectrons> Yeah, the homemade m-wax is too gloppy to flow out easily
[21:53:10] <Valen> whats the plastic for?
[21:53:45] <jrshaul> valen: Makes it hard enough to carve.
[21:53:47] <coldelectrons> but parafin is way too brittle to handle easily, and has really high shrinkage when cast
[21:55:40] <jrshaul> Huh.
[21:57:43] <jrshaul> Does anyone know of a pourable foam suitable for lost foam casting?
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[22:00:21] <Maukka> hello, can some one help me whit pluto p start up. im gettin -1 input/output error , while loadin pluto_step.ko
[22:04:57] <andypugh> I wonder if you could spin-mould aluminium to make a hollow sphere?
[22:05:48] <andypugh> Maukka: That might just be a problem with the Pluto. I have heard that they are a bit unreliable.
[22:07:41] <andypugh> Wikipedia is not finding what I was looking for. The hollow spherical wheels for the Dyson Ballbarrow were made by putting a small amount of plastic into a spherical mould, then spinning it to form a uniform layer on the inside surface. A bit like ceramic slipware.
[22:12:13] <Valen> rotomoulding
[22:12:16] <coldelectrons> They do do shell casting with metals, but I thought that kind of thing was mostly limited to potmetal and other white alloys
[22:13:06] <coldelectrons> Pour it in, slosh it around, pour it out
[22:14:59] <Valen> no reason you couldn't rotomould Al
[22:15:13] <coldelectrons> ...which I would think would mean that your mold needs to be at least as tough as your crucible
[22:15:28] <Valen> steel would do for Al
[22:16:36] <coldelectrons> Sounds more expensive that I'd be willing to do
[22:17:37] <andypugh> If I wanted a hollow aluminium sphere, I would metal-spin two hemispheres and weld them together. (Or evacuate the air, and try to pul them apart with horses :-)
[22:18:47] <coldelectrons> black-n-white iconograph horses :)
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[22:31:01] <Maukka> i just bought this pluto p and it has worked earlier. led on pluto turn on red when wired on. And led shuts off when trying to start up.
[22:36:47] <andypugh> I am afraid I don't know much about the Pluto. Does it need a charg-pump input?
[22:37:09] <pcw_home> Maukka: I guess if it worked at one time the question is "what changed"
[22:37:34] <Maukka> user and pc has changed :)
[22:38:46] <pcw_home> Are you sure the parallel port setup is OK (EPP mode on EPP capable hardware)
[22:39:52] <Maukka> i cheked it out it is on epp mode.
[22:40:44] <andypugh> I have heard a rumour that the Pluto only works on some parallel ports, and not on others.
[22:41:00] <andypugh> But it is probably worth trying some more.
[22:41:10] <andypugh> What motherboard?
[22:41:25] <Maukka> Im using emc 2.4.6 and im thinking of try out on earlier versions if tht would help.
[22:42:33] <andypugh> I think it is more likely to work with a newer version than an older version.
[22:43:43] <andypugh> It might help to explicitly state the port_hi parameter.
[22:44:20] <Maukka> motherboarxd is AsRock K7VT4A+
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[22:48:01] <andypugh> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html/man/man9/pluto_step.9.html
[22:48:16] <andypugh> Have you tried both values for epp_wide in the config string?
[22:49:07] <andypugh> You might also need to manually set the ioaddr_hi to suit the actual board address.
[22:49:31] <andypugh> (I am assuming that ioaddr is correct)
[22:52:04] <pcw_home> motherboard parallel port?
[22:53:33] <Maukka> yep, its motherboard parrallel port.
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[22:55:37] <Maukka> setting ioaddr hi doesnt help.
[22:56:08] <pcw_home> does the BIOS allow setting EPP versions (1.7 or 1.9)? that makes a difference for our cards (we need 1.9)
[22:56:43] <Maukka> i think, bios version was 1.9
[22:57:14] <pcw_home> how long is the parallel cable?
[22:57:59] <Maukka> but it`s gettin late i`ll have to get on this some other day.... i`dont have parrallel cable on between.
[22:58:42] <pcw_home> OK well I'm out of guesses maybe pastebining the dmesg would help
[22:59:49] <andypugh> 7i43 plugs in the same way, and actually works....
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[23:02:10] <andypugh> I am annoyed with myself, I just spent ages making a circuit fit on a 2540 x 2540 thou circuit board because the PCB place I was thinking of using only does up to 100x100mm
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[23:05:30] <Tom_L> try laen's service
[23:05:37] <Tom_L> you get 3 for one at $5 sq in
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[23:07:49] <andypugh> I was looking at Seed Studio ($20 for 10 at 50 x 50 mm)
[23:08:03] <andypugh> Sorry, I mean Seeed Studio
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[23:11:27] <Tom_L> andypugh, http://dorkbotpdx.org/wiki/pcb_order
[23:11:33] <andypugh> Being free delivery in the US is no real wn for me.
[23:11:37] <Tom_L> the color sucks
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[23:12:07] <andypugh> http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/fusion-pcb-2-layer-10cm10cm-max-10pcs-p-396.html?cPath=185
[23:12:30] <Tom_L> i've tried them
[23:12:36] <andypugh> Any good?
[23:12:45] <Tom_L> they're ok i guess
[23:12:59] <Tom_L> slow
[23:13:03] <Tom_L> and picky
[23:13:26] <andypugh> Local would be good, but US or CN are both equally bad for me.
[23:13:38] <Tom_L> i tried to sneak 2 boards in and they didn't like it even though it was within the limits
[23:13:55] <Tom_L> i generally use Gold Phoenix
[23:14:03] <Tom_L> batchpcb uses gold phoenix
[23:14:07] <Tom_L> they're part of sparkfun
[23:15:05] <Tom_L> laen doesn't care what you send
[23:15:37] <Tom_L> they're all tab routed though so you get little nubs back on the board edge
[23:16:23] <Tom_L> where are you?
[23:16:32] <andypugh> UK
[23:16:42] <Tom_L> $5 shipping isn't bad
[23:16:50] <Tom_L> standard post
[23:17:13] <Tom_L> i've sent quite a few things to UK with good luck
[23:17:51] <Tom_L> good thing about him is you can make revs to your board right up until the closing date
[23:18:21] <Tom_L> i hate their color choice though
[23:18:43] <Tom_L> it was green then they tried blue for a while which was ok but this purple is just nuts
[23:19:27] <Tom_L> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/atmega32u4/atmega32U4_3.jpg
[23:19:34] <Tom_L> those are some i did with him
[23:19:53] <Tom_L> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/atmega32u4/atmega32u4_1.jpg
[23:19:55] <Tom_L> and the blue
[23:20:39] <andypugh> Arduino Mini?
[23:20:48] <andypugh> Or something of your own?
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[23:23:35] <Tom_L> my design
[23:23:48] <Tom_L> atmega32U4 usb chip breakout
[23:24:24] <andypugh> Anyway, I guess it can all wait. I am going to the Finnish Arctic for 2 weeks, then a week in the Alps, so all CNC stuff will be on hold for the remainder of the month.
[23:24:59] <Tom_L> same here but not that long
[23:25:07] <Tom_L> and different destination
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[23:25:44] <andypugh> I am annoyed with Mouser, they sat on my order for 2 days before sending it UPS express international. Chances are I won't be there to receive the stuff.
[23:26:02] <andypugh> (They had the terminals for the connector I bought from RS)
[23:27:02] <mshaver> Tom_l: Who is laen?
[23:27:09] <andypugh> Hmm, currently in Memphis TN. No, that's not arriving tomorrow.
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[23:30:58] <andypugh> night all
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