#emc | Logs for 2011-02-05

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[00:01:00] <andypugh> Valen: Gain settings in PID are pins, they can, in theory, be calcluated.
[00:01:09] <Valen> so yeah, making FF1 depend on velocity
[00:01:30] <Valen> yes but I don't have any idea how one would go about that lol
[00:01:36] <andypugh> So, you could pass axis speed through a scale component, and then that could be wired to FF1 gain
[00:01:54] <Valen> if somebody could give me a HAL that has something like it in it I could probably mangle it into shape
[00:02:11] <danimal_garage> jymmm: nice
[00:02:12] <PCW> Are you sure your power supply is not drooping? FF1 should be able to compensate back-EMF directly
[00:02:39] <Valen> pretty sure, they make bad noises when they overcurrent ;->
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[00:03:07] <danimal_garage> i had to run mine in torque mode, velocity mode was pretty restricted by the drives
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[00:04:19] <PCW> maybe your motors lose torque at higher speeds
[00:04:36] <andypugh> (had to share) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8XDgSu4xTA
[00:04:37] <Valen> they do would be
[00:04:50] <Valen> because the mesa just sticks straight PWM out
[00:04:54] <Valen> say 50% PWM out
[00:05:08] <Valen> to start with the torque is going to be massive
[00:05:30] <Valen> as they speed up back EMF kicks in reducing the amperage going to the motors
[00:05:36] <Valen> reducing the torque
[00:06:09] <Valen> at some point with 50% PWM out the torque will just = the friction
[00:06:35] <Jymmm> Valen: increasing rom creates BEMF? I only thought reducing rpm produces BEMF.
[00:06:42] <Jymmm> s/rom/rpm/
[00:07:12] <Valen> so the effect of changing the output of the PID loop is nonlinear with respect to speed
[00:07:55] <Valen> given that the PID loop is best used to control motor torque it seems
[00:08:08] <PCW> The FF1 should compensate for back EMF (at a constant power supply voltage) su you end up with a bootsttrap-current source
[00:08:22] <Valen> PCW it does, but only at one speed
[00:08:42] <Valen> as the back EMF changes with speed in what seems to be a power function
[00:08:58] <PCW> No BEMF is linear with speed
[00:09:03] <Valen> I use ff1 and can tune for ferror hovering around 0
[00:09:12] <Valen> when I change the speed ferror comes back
[00:09:39] <Valen> PCW you should be right
[00:09:46] <Valen> K/volt is a constant, no power term there
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[00:10:04] <Valen> perhaps its not backemf, but there is something non linear there that ff1 isn't fixing
[00:10:08] <PCW> I think you have some kind of secondary error not sure what
[00:10:32] <cradek> are you sure I gain isn't tricking you?
[00:10:40] <Valen> this is with I set to 0
[00:10:44] <cradek> ok good
[00:11:33] <Valen> the supply is switchmode and I haven't seen it droop by more than .1 of a volt until it hits current limit
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[00:11:58] <Valen> it might be drooping under acceleration but I'm looking at constant speed
[00:12:18] <PCW> Have you tried adding some Igain (if its close to tuned)
[00:12:19] <andypugh> I thought that switchmodes wre deprecated for motor drive?
[00:12:49] <Valen> basically my PID tuning system is this. Add P until it oscillates some, add some D till that goes away
[00:13:14] <Emcrules_Laptop> pcw, any thought on moding the 7i49 for my encoders?
[00:13:15] <Valen> adjust bias until ferror is even in both directions
[00:13:38] <Valen> add ff1 until ferror varies around 0,
[00:13:50] <Valen> add a bunch of I to take care of the rest
[00:14:21] <PCW> Emcrules_Laptop didn't get a chance today will look intoi it Monday
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[00:14:32] <Valen> actually I'd really like for D to see a smoothed input
[00:14:41] <Emcrules_Laptop> pcw, ok thanks
[00:14:48] <Valen> it tries to D the individual encoder ticks it seems
[00:14:59] <Valen> makes the output of the signal very noisy
[00:15:24] <PCW> are you using the improved PID comp that has a feedback velocity input?
[00:15:26] <Valen> by the time there is enough D to work on the larger effects that is
[00:15:51] <Valen> PCW i have nfi, I'm just using the out of the box config
[00:16:51] <PCW> OK this problem has been addressed by the PID comp in master (maybe 2.46 not sure)
[00:17:59] <Valen> the noisy D output?\
[00:18:11] <Valen> we are running whatever the latest release is
[00:18:30] <PCW> the original PID did the feedback velocity estimation by D/DT of position (which is very noisy sinece you may or may not have a position delta every sample)
[00:19:12] <Valen> sounds right
[00:19:41] <PCW> but HostMot2s encoder module has a higher quality velocity output that can be hooked to the new pid comps feedback velocity input pin
[00:20:25] <Valen> what should I google to find out about this new pid and such?
[00:21:27] <PCW> man pid will tell you if the pid comp you have is the new one (IDK off hand)
[00:21:51] <Valen> does it say "this is the new one" or anything on it?
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[00:22:25] <Valen> I have only ever played with the 5i23-servo config HAL, i've never dug into it much further than that lol
[00:22:26] <PCW> no but look for the feedback velocity input pin, its new
[00:29:06] <andypugh> Incidentally, this sort of thing is why the advice with EMC2 is to use dumb drives and bring the control inside EMC2. Drives just don't get this clever.
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[00:32:14] <danimal_garage> i didnt get crap for work done this week. It sucks, whenever i change my process, i have to change ALL my programs right off the bat
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[00:38:18] <Emcrules_Laptop> andypugh: is there a 8i20 config in master?
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[00:38:36] <andypugh> No, not yet
[00:39:13] <andypugh> I suppose we should make one.
[00:40:05] <andypugh> Closest is a part-completed wiki page (about 10% there). http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?BLDC
[00:40:48] <Emcrules_Laptop> it would be nice. yes i am following you changes to the BLDC page
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[00:44:44] <PCW> Ha made it fit! optimize for area: 2355/2352 slices optimize for speed:2354/2352, balanced: 2350/2350 slices
[00:46:54] <Valen> like a glove ;-P
[00:47:23] <Valen> thanks for the tip PCW I'll look into whats happening with the velocity and see if i can smooth it out, hopefully I'll be able to add loads more D
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[00:47:58] <PCW> you should be able to add some more plus it will be a lot quieter
[00:48:10] <PCW> rats missed him
[00:49:09] <PCW> ttgh bbl
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[01:25:13] <KimK> !later Valen (sent via !later) Hi Valen, I thought you'd want to see what you missed: (1) * Valen has quit (Quit: Leaving.) (2) <PCW> you should be able to add some more plus it will be a lot quieter (3) <PCW> rats missed him (4) <PCW> ttgh bbl (5) * PCW has quit
[01:28:06] <danimal_garage> now that is service!
[01:28:51] <KimK> our goal is customer satisfaction
[01:29:18] <KimK> (or double your money back)
[01:29:18] <danimal_garage> would you like to run some parts for me?
[01:30:21] <KimK> Ha, easy! sure, right away.
[01:30:23] * KimK runs the parts and hands them back to danimal_garage
[01:31:03] <danimal_garage> i've been working wayyy too hard lately
[01:31:08] <danimal_garage> i need an employee
[01:31:20] <danimal_garage> this working stuff is for the birds
[01:31:32] <KimK> what part of the country are you in?
[01:31:42] <danimal_garage> San Diego, CA
[01:32:02] <KimK> Ah, nice, warm there too.
[01:32:02] <danimal_garage> u?
[01:32:19] <danimal_garage> ehh, not the past few days (relatively speaking)
[01:32:25] <KimK> Omaha, NE at present
[01:32:32] <danimal_garage> ah
[01:33:09] <KimK> What kinds of parts do you make there?
[01:33:27] <danimal_garage> http://www.homebrewedcomponents.com
[01:33:32] <danimal_garage> bicycle parts
[01:34:00] <KimK> Oh, OK, sure. I remember now.
[01:34:19] <KimK> Lots of demand I guess? You're lucky.
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[01:34:54] <danimal_garage> it's been picking up
[01:35:17] <danimal_garage> the problem is i changed some tooling and processes so i had to reporgram everything
[01:35:29] <danimal_garage> so work output has been low
[01:35:38] <danimal_garage> now i have to work extra hard to catch up
[01:36:07] <KimK> But a change for the better, long term, right?
[01:36:24] <danimal_garage> yes
[01:38:29] <danimal_garage> after these three parts i'm going inside and having a beer.
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[01:40:18] <KimK> Grandpa Jones me: What kind of beer?
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[01:41:12] <danimal_garage> nothing fancy, just a Newcastle
[01:41:41] <KimK> OK. I mean "Mmmm-mmmm!"
[01:42:21] <danimal_garage> not my fav but it was on sale, and it's low enough alcohol content where i can drink it durring the week without much recourse
[01:43:02] <danimal_garage> yave you ever had Stone or Arrogant Bastard?
[01:43:20] <KimK> No, I haven't.
[01:43:45] <danimal_garage> oh
[01:43:58] <KimK> But I'll look for them sometime
[01:44:01] <danimal_garage> pretty good stuff. it's a local brewery but they sell it all over the country
[01:44:20] <danimal_garage> the Stone IPA or ipa is pretty good
[01:46:52] <KimK> IPA? Do they make soda too? Have I seen IPA soda at Wal-Mart?
[01:47:51] <KimK> I seem to recall IPA Root Beer and IPA Creme soda, not sure though
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[02:00:43] <Tom_itx> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=AS5130-ASSTCT-ND
[02:00:49] <Tom_itx> that's gotta be good for something
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[02:16:25] <seb_kuzminsky> i suck at making shaft couplers and i don't know wht
[02:16:29] <seb_kuzminsky> *why
[02:18:23] <Tom_itx> solid?
[02:18:34] <Tom_itx> or rubber dampered?
[02:19:07] <Tom_itx> should be an easy matter
[02:19:43] <Tom_itx> drill and ream the small hole first, then drill and ream the larger one half way thru
[02:20:16] <Tom_itx> part it off, mount in a vice and drill and tap a couple or more holes
[02:20:25] <seb_kuzminsky> Tom_itx: that's basically what i did
[02:20:39] <seb_kuzminsky> mine's acrylic, because that's what my buddy had on hand
[02:20:43] <Tom_itx> should be brain dead easy
[02:20:44] <seb_kuzminsky> maybe that's part of the problem
[02:20:52] <Tom_itx> acryl is too brittle
[02:21:09] <seb_kuzminsky> also, I don't have the correct reamers for either of the shafts, so i used the least-oversized drill bit i had...
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[02:21:29] <Tom_itx> you don't want oversize
[02:21:50] <Tom_itx> unless you plan to wrap the shaft with shimstock
[02:21:57] <seb_kuzminsky> yeah, but it's somewhat better than undersize!
[02:21:59] <Tom_itx> which sucks
[02:22:20] <seb_kuzminsky> we're going to try the beer can shim trick next time
[02:22:29] <seb_kuzminsky> if that doesn't work we'll plunk down for the reamers we need
[02:22:43] <Tom_itx> you can never have too many tools
[02:22:56] <seb_kuzminsky> true that
[02:23:08] <Tom_itx> but a few of the right ones can save you getting one of everything
[02:23:21] <seb_kuzminsky> are there boring bars small enough to bore a .192 hole?
[02:23:41] <Tom_itx> you can make one
[02:23:49] <Tom_itx> but i'd ream one that small
[02:24:04] <seb_kuzminsky> .372?
[02:24:30] <Tom_itx> you got some damn oddball sized shafts
[02:24:33] <seb_kuzminsky> yeh
[02:24:45] <seb_kuzminsky> sold as 3/8, but apparently undersized
[02:25:33] <Tom_itx> just barstock?
[02:25:46] <seb_kuzminsky> big one's acme, small one's a nema17 shaft
[02:25:57] <Tom_itx> the nema17 should be right on
[02:26:34] <seb_kuzminsky> its 5mm
[02:26:56] <Tom_itx> 5mm is .2055"
[02:27:21] <seb_kuzminsky> 5mm is .196inch
[02:27:34] <Tom_itx> no that's wrong
[02:27:40] <Tom_itx> i was looking at a #5 drill
[02:27:44] <Tom_itx> sry
[02:27:44] <seb_kuzminsky> you're thinking of a #5 drill
[02:27:45] <seb_kuzminsky> heh
[02:28:03] <Tom_itx> .1969"
[02:28:26] <Tom_itx> #9 drill might work
[02:28:27] <seb_kuzminsky> so i should just buy the right reamers and try again i think
[02:28:32] <Tom_itx> it's .196
[02:28:53] <Tom_itx> i would
[02:28:55] <seb_kuzminsky> drills leave a bad taste in my mouth
[02:28:57] <Tom_itx> on something like that
[02:29:06] <Tom_itx> you don't want any wobble in it
[02:29:10] <seb_kuzminsky> right
[02:29:19] <Tom_itx> it'll crap out the bearings etc quicker
[02:29:26] <seb_kuzminsky> ever made an oldham coupler? i got some delrin to cut for the spider
[02:29:46] <seb_kuzminsky> that's a bigger job than boring our some bar stock though
[02:30:04] <Tom_itx> no
[02:30:29] <seb_kuzminsky> and you still need proper-sized holes to mate with the shafts, though the shaft-holes on an oldham tolerate more slop than on a straight rigic coupler
[02:30:51] <Tom_itx> ever try stock drive products?
[02:31:45] <Tom_L> http://www.sdp-si.com/eStore/CoverPg/couplings.htm
[02:31:46] <seb_kuzminsky> no
[02:31:50] <seb_kuzminsky> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/mechanical_calculations_engineering_design/15260-diy_oldham_coupler.html
[02:32:21] <KimK> Hi Seb. What are you making? Overall, I mean.
[02:33:01] <seb_kuzminsky> hi KimK
[02:33:13] <seb_kuzminsky> i'm helping a friend make a robotic ouija board :-)
[02:33:29] <Tom_itx> i've been known to clamp rubber tubing to things too
[02:34:02] <seb_kuzminsky> the rubber hose method is probably plenty for this application
[02:53:07] <elmo40> from doing some research, I figure that I need to acquire a 5i22 and a 7i33 to be able to use this TTL encoder on the spindle. Would I be able to control the DC motor with them? or do I need something else.
[02:53:34] <elmo40> I will use steppers for the X and Z (lathe)
[02:53:50] <elmo40> but I would like to make a tool changer for it ;) (down the road, anyways)
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[03:08:03] <pcw_home> A 5I20/7I33 is more than adequate 5I22 is overkill
[03:08:45] <elmo40> for a few dollars more I see no reason to not purchase the 5i22.
[03:09:03] <pcw_home> your $
[03:23:04] <seb_kuzminsky> elmo40: the 7i33 accepts encoder input, and provides a +-10V output signal intended to be used by a servo amp
[03:23:49] <elmo40> I have this PWM driver for the motor. it currently uses a potentiometer to vary the speed. (0 to +10V) Would this card work to send that variable voltage to the driver along with the TTL encoder? [4I27A 2 axis servo motor controller card (analog out)]
[03:24:16] <elmo40> seb_kuzminsky: I see.
[03:26:39] <elmo40> so not the 4i27, but the 7i33.
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[03:32:58] <KimK> elmo40: And don't forget about pcw_home's recent suggestion: I would use a 7i47s, This will give you 4 encoder inputs, one analog out and 4 step+dir outputs (I'm not familiar with the 7i47, but maybe it would be a good fit for you?)
[03:33:56] <KimK> But you could certainly use a 7i33 and a 7i42(?)
[03:35:54] <elmo40> 7i47 sure does fit the bill! thanks.
[03:36:40] <pcw_home> yes a 7I42 and 7I33 would work. I think the fly in the ointment with the 7I47S is that elmo40 has a TTL encoder
[03:36:42] <pcw_home> But If i did this is would still use the 7I47S and add a line driver to the encoder (I think theres a little line driver pod from Digikey that will work)
[03:38:13] <elmo40> now I need 3 cards? 5i20, 7i42 and 7i33?
[03:38:17] <KimK> Yes, those "cable lump" drivers and receivers, from the CUI line of magnetic encoders as I recall? Skunkworks used some of those, not sure which flavor.
[03:39:53] <pcw_home> No just 5I20 (or 7I43) and 7I47S
[03:40:49] <KimK> You might choose the 7i42 & 7i33 over the 7i47s alone if you have big plans for your lathe. Adding a Y-axis (mill)? Adding a C-axis (servo spindle)? Stuff like that. You'd have plenty of extra servo/stepper I/O.
[03:41:35] <elmo40> I do plan on making a mill attachment... (future endeavour ;) )
[03:41:47] <elmo40> or a tool changer
[03:42:34] <KimK> If your future tool changer might need a servo/stepper axis, now would be a good time to count it.
[03:42:37] <elmo40> the website states the 7I47: 12 Channel motion oriented RS-422 interface
[03:42:52] <elmo40> 12 channel. that is a lot.
[03:43:18] <KimK> I better go read up on the 7i47, lol
[03:43:23] <elmo40> up to 6 steppers and 6 encoders
[03:43:56] <KimK> pcw_home: Which one was the resolver one, and how's that coming along?
[03:46:23] <pcw_home> 7I47S is what you want if you want 1 analog output
[03:46:59] <Tom_itx> i find the site hard to find stuff on
[03:47:03] <pcw_home> 7I49 is resolver interface and they are shipping now,
[03:48:32] <pcw_home> Thres no EMC support yet for the 7I49 but it should be easy (one 32 bit register for position and one 32 bit register for velocity per axis)
[03:48:53] <KimK> Ah, so 7i47s's 1 analog output (0 to +10) would be for the spindle speed? So 7i47s is probably for stepper only applications due to lack of +/-10 outputs?
[03:49:05] <pcw_home> s/Thres/Theres
[03:49:38] <pcw_home> Yes stepper/encoder plus maybe sserial
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[03:50:32] <KimK> OK. And I'm guessing that Seb is working on the 7i49 for EMC2? (when he's not helping friends with robotics, lol)
[03:51:03] <pcw_home> Noone working on it ATM
[03:52:47] <KimK> I'd volunteer if I can chat with Seb from time to time. (OK, frequently, lol)
[03:55:13] <KimK> I didn't mean to put you on the spot. Let me know.
[03:58:10] <pcw_home> Sure if you want to. I think you will have to chat with cradek / jepler as well as full support of absolute encoders requires some emc changes as well
[03:59:11] <KimK> Yes, that would be fine. And they're only an hour's drive away.
[04:04:39] <pcw_home> If absolute was supported then standard SSI absolute encoders and magnetic SSI encoders like austriamicrosystems chips would be easy to add
[04:04:40] <pcw_home> also BISS support could be added for very high res absolute encoders
[04:14:58] <KimK> I'm certainly in favor of including as many types of absolute encoders as possible. Or at least not excluding them by design. And it should be doable because whether they're resolvers or Gray or BCD, whether by serial or parallel or something I haven't thought of here, they all have to end up being an absolute position register of some kind.
[04:16:42] <pcw_home> right
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[04:26:55] <KimK> OK then, I guess if a 7i49 shows up on loan, I'll take that to mean I've volunteered. Do you still have my contact info or shall I PM it?
[04:45:09] <Emcrules_Laptop> KimK: I also plan on trying to test with a 7i49 as well, just waiting to see if peter can mod the firmware for my encoders
[04:50:39] <KimK> Emcrules_Laptop: Excellent. And yours was the hiperface encoder as I recall?
[04:51:12] <Emcrules_Laptop> Yes but i can get my hands on ssi encoders as well
[04:52:53] <KimK> OK. I'd better stick with just the resolvers for the moment though, can't afford to tackle too much at once.
[04:53:10] <Emcrules_Laptop> Heidinhain scales would be nice to but I think that would be asking too much
[04:54:50] <Emcrules_Laptop> Kimk, yes that is my plan to work on the resolver intergration and then move on to absolute encoders. Im just in the process of building my test rig so i dont have to mess with my mill setup
[04:55:08] <KimK> Heidenhain scales with some kind of hiperface or SSI or some such interface you mean? Because we could do Heidenhain quadrature (or even sinusoidal, with an adapter) right now.
[04:57:59] <Emcrules_Laptop> KimK: just regular heidinhain sinus with no adapter. Having to try and get a deal on ebay for some exe boxes that convert the scales sucks
[04:59:26] <KimK> OK. Maybe you could put together a sinusoidal to quadrature adapter yourself? Surely somebody must have done that and blogged about it?
[05:00:08] <Emcrules_Laptop> maybe jon elsons board may work
[05:01:09] <KimK> What's the technology of your Heidenhains, optical?
[05:01:58] <Emcrules_Laptop> I think so with the traditional 1V P-P output
[05:02:24] <KimK> OK. I'd check for bloggers.
[05:06:45] <KimK> I guess if you could pick up the 1Vpp control signal and use that as a way to analog fade in and out (and phase-reverse) the resolver drive signal, you could run that into the sin and cos inputs as if they came from a resolver and that might work?
[05:07:58] <Emcrules_Laptop> Sorry my mistake its a 11uA P-P signal
[05:09:09] <KimK> You'd have to generate 0, 90, 180, and 270 from the resolver drive, but that doesn't sound too hard, it's one fixed frequency. And four gates. Say 0 and 180 to the cos input and 90 and 270 to the sin input. Would that work?
[05:10:22] <Emcrules_Laptop> Yeah I think it could be converted to digital just by using zero crossing
[05:10:39] <KimK> So you'd have a simulated resolver output controlled by the pair of 1Vpp (or 11ua, that's OK) sinusoidal signals. Seems like that might work.
[05:11:28] <KimK> Does your Heidenhain have any kind of "home" or "index" output? (Whatever it might be?)
[05:12:34] <Emcrules_Laptop> Lots of playing around !!! Thank god i have a mill to make PCBs . Yes they have index chanels some are distance coded
[05:14:22] <KimK> OK. Sometimes there's only one pulse and sometimes they repeat every so often (5mm? 1mm?)
[05:15:01] <Emcrules_Laptop> Actuall andypugh has done some work with a ardinuio or what ever it's called and resolvers you could probabbly just use one of those to convert resolvers to encoder
[05:15:31] <Emcrules_Laptop> Yes the index repeats just forget the interval
[05:17:02] <KimK> Oh, yes, that's right, Andy's Arduino might work too, sorry it's so late in the UK or Andy might have jumped in with some advice. Well, maybe he'll see this later and have something to tell us.
[05:19:39] <Emcrules_Laptop> what ubuntu version are you at?
[05:22:50] <KimK> I'm running 10.04 on my Desktop and on all CNC machines that I help with. Except for one 8.04 VirtualBox machine on my desktop for the Docs. And that might be about to become unnecessary if psha's and jepler's doc format changes come about.
[05:23:34] <KimK> Then I'll have to be completely retrained on docs, I guess, lol
[05:24:18] <Emcrules_Laptop> would you recommend lucid for a test box or stay with hardy for now?
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[05:25:58] <KimK> I can only say that 10.04/Lucid has been good to me, no problems. I would use 10.04. If others have different advice, speak up, tell us about it.
[05:27:33] <KimK> Well, it's late, maybe they'll scroll back and tell us later.
[05:31:20] <KimK> In fact, I needed to install a wireless card lately, and I did some chip/driver research and found what I thought might work at a local computer store for a good price. But you never know, especially with wireless. So with great trepidation, I bought it, took it home and plugged it in.
[05:32:59] <KimK> I was astonished. All I had to do was stop the network, enter the wireless security info, and restart the network. It found it's own free/open drivers! It was easier than installing in Windows!
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[05:35:06] <Emcrules_Laptop> I have heard lucid is good for that kind of stuff
[05:40:31] <KimK> Keep me posted on your 7i49, encoders, 8i20, etc. situation. I'll be around a while longer, but first I think there's a sandwich calling me.
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[08:48:13] <the_wench> Valen: KimK said (sent via !later) Hi Valen, I thought you'd want to see what you missed: (1) * Valen has quit (Quit: Leaving.) (2) <PCW> you should be able to add some more plus it will be a lot quieter (3) <PCW> rats missed him (4) <PCW> ttgh bbl (5) * PCW has quit
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[11:41:52] <jthornton> yuck snow :/
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[11:47:07] * logger_emc is logging
[11:59:27] <SWPLinux> logger[psha]: ?
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[12:11:12] <Valen> !later
[12:12:12] <Valen> SWPLinux: how does one prompt the_wench for help, any idea?
[12:12:26] <SWPLinux> just come in and act like you don't know anything
[12:12:29] <SWPLinux> like this:
[12:12:31] <SWPLinux> hello>
[12:12:34] <SWPLinux> hello?
[12:12:34] <the_wench> hello SWPLinux, you have a question?
[12:12:48] <archivist> and then I say !later nick message
[12:12:57] <SWPLinux> the_wench: whassup?
[12:12:58] <Valen> the bots I've seen will normally provide command lists via private message
[12:13:12] <archivist> help later
[12:13:20] <Valen> !later PCW Thanks for that, I'll give it a go
[12:13:28] <SWPLinux> I don't know what the_wench does, other than prompt people to actually ask a question
[12:13:36] <SWPLinux> the_wench: help
[12:13:39] <archivist> its logging
[12:13:40] <Valen> (19:48:13) the_wench: Valen: KimK said (sent via !later) Hi Valen, I thought you'd want to see what you missed: (1) * Valen has quit (Quit: Leaving.) (2) <PCW> you should be able to add some more plus it will be a lot quieter (3) <PCW> rats missed him (4) <PCW> ttgh bbl (5) * PCW has quit
[12:13:45] <SWPLinux> well, ok
[12:13:54] <archivist> db
[12:13:54] <the_wench> http://www.wench.archivist.info/index.php?chan=%23emc to see any factoids (select channel if needed)
[12:14:24] <Valen> lol xy is cool
[12:14:32] <Valen> the_wench: xy
[12:14:38] <SWPLinux> yeah, I've seen that one used :)
[12:14:47] <archivist> xy
[12:14:47] <the_wench> The X-Y problem is when you want to do X, but you don't know how. You think you can hack X if you can just do Y, but you don't know how to do Y either. You ask (us) for help with Y. We think Y is a strange problem to want to solve... So just ask us about X.
[12:14:59] <Valen> fussy bot
[12:15:18] <archivist> also responds as !tell nick about xy
[12:15:55] <Valen> #mysql | sql injection | Please read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SQL_injection and http://www.unixwiz.net/techtips/sql-injection.html and http://xkcd.com/327/
[12:15:57] <Valen> rofl!
[12:16:03] <archivist> I about to hach the !man command it has so it knows the emc manual in here
[12:16:09] <Valen> xkcd as course ware
[12:16:15] <archivist> :)
[12:16:30] <SWPLinux> archivist: it should tell people where to get the info, not quote parts of the manual (IMO)
[12:17:20] <Valen> so am I still the only person who sees touch off at less than encoder resolution as a bit of an issue?
[12:17:29] <archivist> well in #mysql we use the freeform factoids for that use and !man for direct urls
[12:17:29] <SWPLinux> ?
[12:18:33] <Valen> you can jog around and when you touch off it offsets the cordinate system to a position less than your encoders
[12:18:57] <archivist> !wench learn help later is !later nick message
[12:18:57] <the_wench> I have learnt help later is !later nick message
[12:19:07] <Valen> so your cordinate system might be at .0003434 though you only have .001 encoders
[12:19:25] <SWPLinux> err
[12:20:07] <SWPLinux> it seems like that shouldn't be possible, since the position comes from feedback ...
[12:20:22] <Valen> touch off is based on commanded position
[12:20:27] <SWPLinux> unless it doesn't come from feedback (like with a stepper+encoder system)
[12:20:32] <SWPLinux> hmm
[12:20:44] <Valen> and I was told on a prior occasion it was done on purpose and it was in no uncertain terms a bug
[12:20:54] <Valen> (touch off on commanded not actual position that is)
[12:21:02] <SWPLinux> bbiab
[12:21:02] <Valen> not a bug sorry
[12:21:59] <archivist> "feature" is what cradek called it last night, does seem odd to me
[12:22:23] <Valen> archivist: thats a slightly different thing
[12:22:32] <Valen> same region, different issue
[12:23:11] <SWPLinux> it makes sense actually. if you know where you have positioned the tool, you should enter that number. Just because your encoder can't resolve that exact location is kind of irrelevant
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[12:24:08] <Valen> thing is it causes ferror if you say go to 34.000 and the closest it can get is 34.0003435 or 33.9994453
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[12:24:46] <Valen> I spose my thinking is the commanded position should jump by encoder count amounts
[12:24:55] <Valen> encoder precision rather
[12:24:56] <SWPLinux> then your setup is faulty. since by definition you have touched off to a point less than 1/2 encoder count from the nearest encoder "tick", that should not be capable of causing a following error
[12:25:23] <SWPLinux> it may increase the "perceived error" by that 1/2 count, but that should also be unlikely to cause an actual ferror
[12:25:48] <Valen> the commanded position is given in say G54 vs the encoder in machine cords
[12:26:06] <Valen> the machine can never actually move to a half count
[12:26:27] <Valen> so the nearest the encoder can measure is either too high or too low
[12:26:34] <SWPLinux> so what?
[12:26:47] <Valen> so it can never actually be at 0 ferror
[12:27:08] <Valen> as its being commanded to move somewhere it cant get to
[12:27:10] <SWPLinux> you're not guaranteed that the machine position is at the encoder edge during normal operation, there's a +/- 1 count error (1- actually)
[12:27:52] <SWPLinux> the fact that ferror is not 0 doesn't matter. You should set PID deadband to about 1/2 encoder count, which will stop that condition from causing extra servo hunting
[12:27:53] <Valen> my mill seemed to be happy to move across one encoder count as I built up the ferror
[12:28:12] <Valen> yes that eventually came up
[12:28:19] <Valen> but it doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere
[12:28:41] <Valen> it still feels like a bit of a work around
[12:29:14] <SWPLinux> no, it's the intent of deadband (for stepper/servo systems like Pico, or for encoders)
[12:29:24] <Valen> spose
[12:29:37] <Valen> might be well if it was mentioned in the docs?
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[12:30:07] <SWPLinux> it is, probably in the PID manpage, if nowhere else
[12:30:35] <Valen> I didn't realise there was a pid manpage
[12:30:40] <Valen> until recently
[12:30:51] <Valen> and I generally do my reading on machines that don't have EMC installed
[12:31:14] <SWPLinux> patches gratefully accepted :)
[12:31:22] <Valen> point me at it lol
[12:31:29] <alex_joni> LMGIFY
[12:31:36] <SWPLinux> there was a start at a PID tuning section, but it's a very complex subject
[12:31:42] <Valen> alex_joni: http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=1720&bih=842&q=EMC2+pid+manpage&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=
[12:32:09] <Valen> yeah the wiki kind of tailed off on any actual "tuning"
[12:32:30] <Valen> and is geared to non mesa hardware
[12:32:59] <alex_joni> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/2.4/html/man/man9/pid.9.html
[12:33:43] <Valen> google didn't turn that up for me at least
[12:34:00] <Valen> that specifies the half count thing, very handy detail
[12:34:31] <Valen> although it seems not to have the feedback velocity pin PCW was talking about
[12:34:38] <Valen> anybody know if that has made it to a release?
[12:36:38] <SWPLinux> it doesn't look like the documentation has
[12:37:10] <Valen> but the feature might?
[12:37:37] <Valen> actually PCW said it should be in the docs if its in the release
[12:37:47] <Valen> or at least thats how he indicated I should test for it
[12:38:02] <SWPLinux> the feature is in master, and maybe even 2.5
[12:38:09] <Valen> ahh
[12:38:43] <SWPLinux> hmmm
[12:39:02] <Valen> I'll need to compile EMC if I want to run a release version (sim only obviously) on generic 10.10 install wont I
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[12:39:39] <SWPLinux> odd. the devel docs say they're for version 2.6, but VERSION says 2.5.0~pre in the source tree
[12:39:47] <SWPLinux> so I'd say it will be in 2.5
[12:40:07] <Valen> that ok for "beta"/stable use?
[12:40:15] <Valen> IE good enough to work most of the time
[12:40:31] <SWPLinux> I suspect so, but I haven't been following EMC2 well lately
[12:40:50] <Valen> any way to get 2.5 from repo's or is it a compile your own thing again?
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[12:41:33] <SWPLinux> I think there are nightly deb builds now, though I don't know where they are
[12:41:36] <SWPLinux> bbib
[12:41:37] <SWPLinux> a
[12:41:48] <psha> buildbot.linuxcnc.org
[12:41:51] <Valen> small patch btw, for FF1 it says CEMF it probably means BEMF
[12:42:42] <Valen> psha: thanks for that
[12:42:58] <Valen> I'll have to try and get master running and see what difference it makes
[12:43:05] <Valen> should do wonders for my D term
[12:43:33] <Valen> at .003 it was causing the output to actually go from +2 to -1 at an average of 1
[12:49:06] <Valen> anyway thanks all
[12:49:11] <Valen> sleepy time for me
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[16:05:52] <awallin> anyone know a lot about 3-phase power? From the wall we have L1, L2, L3, N, and PE. The cnc-machine I installed today only has L1, L2, L3, and PE inputs. We left N unconnected. OK?
[16:06:07] <awallin> L is live/phase, N is neutral/zero, and PE is protective earth
[16:06:25] <awallin> we did beep with a multimeter that PE is connected to the machine frame/shields etc
[16:07:00] <awallin> machine seems to work ok (only light testing so far)
[16:09:36] <psha> awallin: when load is balanced N is not needed
[16:09:51] <psha> L* compensate each other
[16:10:07] <psha> they have 1/3 phase shift
[16:10:28] <archivist> internal unbalanced will transform from an outer pair
[16:10:29] <psha> so whey you connect them to one point you'll have zero potential
[16:11:31] <awallin> that means "ground" in the machine electronics is "floating" (somewhere in the middle of L1,L2,L3)
[16:11:37] <awallin> ??
[16:11:58] <archivist> no it will be connected to the real ground
[16:12:38] <archivist> maybe via a resistor
[16:13:38] <archivist> but the internal electronics will be isolated from the 3 phase in via a psu
[16:14:06] <awallin> yep, there is one big transformer for xyz-servodrives, and one smaller for the controller
[16:14:21] <awallin> I think the spindle-drive might take 3-phase directly as input
[16:14:28] <archivist> likely
[16:17:30] <awallin> machine is this one: http://blinmachinery.en.made-in-china.com/product/RedJbtwYbiVU/China-Machining-Center-BL-VMC-TG8026-ISO-CE-GB-.html
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[17:11:42] <skunkworks> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UagccI5zb4
[17:13:27] <Tom_itx> is there much difference between the asus and intel atom boards?
[17:14:36] <Tom_itx> your lathe?
[17:14:54] <skunkworks> no
[17:15:05] <skunkworks> just recent video
[17:15:22] <skunkworks> I have used both.
[17:15:33] <Tom_itx> any preference?
[17:15:41] <Tom_itx> the intel is $10 cheaper
[17:15:45] <Tom_itx> at newegg
[17:15:47] <skunkworks> for me they where about the same - but even within lines - there are differences
[17:16:13] <skunkworks> I would say if the pci ports are enough for you - the atom boards have been tested by many
[17:16:18] <Tom_itx> what 's the cpu speed?
[17:16:38] * skunkworks has an asus board in his k&t
[17:16:40] <Tom_itx> anything would be an upgrade from this itx
[17:16:45] <skunkworks> because I needed 2 pci slots
[17:16:49] <Tom_itx> oh
[17:17:17] <Tom_itx> which one?
[17:17:18] <skunkworks> the atom is 1.6ghz (atleast the old 330 board was) I don't know what the new one is.
[17:17:43] <Tom_itx> one for $179 is 1.8G
[17:17:45] <Tom_itx> hz
[17:17:53] <skunkworks> mzm68-am
[17:17:54] <Tom_itx> D525
[17:18:42] <skunkworks> the asus board I am using was 99 with proccessor if I recall correctly - but I needed a video card and processor fan
[17:18:49] <skunkworks> amd
[17:18:59] <skunkworks> the onboard video gave me issues
[17:19:15] <Tom_itx> with emc?
[17:19:32] <skunkworks> yes
[17:19:40] <skunkworks> the atom boards do not.
[17:19:53] <Tom_itx> ok
[17:19:59] <skunkworks> latency
[17:21:19] <Tom_itx> the D525 must be dual core
[17:21:50] <Tom_itx> it's only $5 more than the other one
[17:22:05] <skunkworks> I have only used the older one. - the 330 version
[17:22:13] <skunkworks> but others have used the newer one
[17:22:19] <skunkworks> that was a dual core
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[17:24:08] <psha> Tom_L: D525 has worse latency then D510
[17:25:06] <psha> at least one man reported that he has 27us/19us servo/base latency
[17:25:11] <psha> oops, jitter
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[17:29:07] <alex_joni> haha: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuAr5pJgU38
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[17:35:27] <pcw_home> looks like they need some binoculars (or maybe just glasses)
[17:37:11] <archivist> jerky movements!
[17:37:30] <alex_joni> archivist: right on, no s-curve profile :D
[17:37:46] <alex_joni> pcw_home: they got another pair of eyes later
[17:39:53] <archivist> I would expect better levelling too
[17:42:28] <Tom_L> so for emc purposed the D510 might be a better choice?
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[17:45:33] <psha> Tom_L: i guess yes
[17:45:53] <psha> but i've not recieved details about D525
[17:46:05] <psha> isolcpus may lower jitter
[17:46:10] <Tom_L> well they're within $5 of each other
[17:46:33] <psha> you want to run steppers or use something like mesa?
[17:46:41] <Tom_L> either or
[17:46:45] <Tom_L> probably steppers
[17:46:54] <psha> so jitter is critical to you
[17:48:02] <psha> D510 has cheaper memory
[17:48:31] <Tom_L> ddr2 800?
[17:48:51] <psha> no, formfactor
[17:49:00] <psha> DIMM or SO-DIMM
[17:51:11] <psha> hm, incorrect
[17:51:21] <psha> ddr3 sodimm's are cheaper already then ddr2 dimms
[17:51:58] <psha> however difference is subtile
[17:55:25] <Tom_L> the 510 doesn't give the system clock
[17:55:41] <Tom_L> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121399&Tpk=d510mo
[17:55:43] <Tom_L> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121442&cm_re=intel_atom_itx_motherboard-_-13-121-442-_-Product
[17:56:37] <psha> what exactly do you need?
[17:57:01] <Tom_L> i don't 'need' anything but i'm looking to make a stepper machine
[17:57:11] <Tom_L> or just use it for irc
[17:57:17] <Tom_L> like my itx currently does
[17:57:20] <psha> 20:55 < Tom_L> the 510 doesn't give the system clock
[17:57:52] <Tom_L> the D525 runs at 1.8Ghz
[17:58:04] <psha> heh, cpu freq is last thing to look at :)
[17:58:12] <Tom_L> i know
[17:58:18] <Tom_L> but it still didn't say
[17:58:26] <psha> 1.6
[17:58:40] <Tom_L> i'm leaning toward the D510 anyway
[17:58:51] <psha> looking tech info at newegg is a bit strange
[17:59:34] <psha> why not to look at product page at vendor site?
[17:59:45] <Tom_L> that'd be too easy
[18:00:12] <psha> :)
[18:00:33] <Tom_L> the D525 probably wouldn't work with the pico psu
[18:00:42] <Tom_L> it's got the extra 4 video pwr plug
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[18:07:06] <pcw_home> I wonder if the latency differences between the D510 and D525 are more the result of setup differences (isolcpu etc)
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[18:34:18] <danimal_garage> i finnaly broke down and got a d510mo
[18:34:52] <psha> pcw_home: maybe... but i've not got feedback about setup :(
[18:34:53] <danimal_garage> they had them locally for the same price as everywhere online so i decided to grab it
[18:35:02] <Tom_itx> not a D525?
[18:35:13] <danimal_garage> and a gig of 800mhz ram
[18:35:17] <danimal_garage> d510
[18:35:28] <danimal_garage> they didnt have the d525
[18:35:35] <psha> however if somebody from irc will get 525 it would be great ;)
[18:35:45] <Tom_itx> i might
[18:35:47] <psha> since it would be reliable source of info :)
[18:35:57] <Tom_itx> it's only $5 difference
[18:36:05] <psha> on forums it's usually hard to get detailed info...
[18:36:15] <Tom_itx> but i'm not currently running emc
[18:36:27] <Tom_itx> one criteria i wanted was fanless
[18:36:31] <Tom_itx> i don't think it is
[18:36:44] <Tom_itx> i get sick of replacing fans
[18:37:04] <danimal_garage> i was going to get a memory card, but i got a 500gb sata HDD for like $39, so it was actually cheaper to go that route i think
[18:37:37] <psha> Tom_itx: both theese MB's are fanless
[18:37:46] <Tom_itx> the D525?
[18:37:57] <Tom_itx> hmm, ok
[18:38:01] <psha> it's nearly identical to 510
[18:38:09] <danimal_garage> now i should definitely have room for everything in my new enclosure
[18:38:12] <Tom_itx> except dual core
[18:38:13] <psha> sligthly different processor
[18:38:21] <psha> no, 510 is 2core too
[18:38:26] <Tom_itx> oh
[18:38:27] <psha> 410 is unicore
[18:38:40] <psha> 5** are dual, 4** are single
[18:38:59] <danimal_garage> whats the difference between the 510 and 525?
[18:39:02] <Tom_itx> i'll likely get one when i get back from vacation
[18:39:04] <danimal_garage> in a nut shell
[18:39:08] <psha> danimal_garage: processor
[18:39:10] <danimal_garage> ah
[18:39:12] <psha> atom 510 or atom 525
[18:39:30] <psha> it has a bit higher freq (1.8)
[18:39:36] <danimal_garage> as long as the 510 works fine for emc which i hear it does, i'll be happy
[18:39:45] <Tom_itx> same here
[18:40:51] <danimal_garage> so now i gotta figure out my pannel layout
[18:41:28] <danimal_garage> it'd be nice if i can fit all the SSR's i have in my toolchanger into the enclosure as well
[18:41:49] <danimal_garage> 6 ssr's and 2 regular relays
[18:44:19] <Tom_itx> what sort of isolation do most of the parport boards use to protect the port?
[18:44:22] <Tom_itx> just a buffer chip?
[18:44:28] <Tom_itx> or optoisolators?
[18:45:17] <danimal_garage> opto usually i believe
[18:45:27] <danimal_garage> i dont know though, i run mesa boards
[18:46:17] <tom3p> danimal_garage, the opto22 modules come in single dual and even quad styles, squeezing more into less space
[18:48:37] <danimal_garage> neat
[18:49:32] <tom3p> http://www.youngssurplus.com/Dscf18197.jpg
[18:49:36] <danimal_garage> i may get a par port card someday since i'm about out of i/o on the mesa
[18:49:52] <danimal_garage> i guess i can get a 5i23
[18:50:50] <danimal_garage> the 5i20 is pretty much full though. i gained a few i/o's since i went to servos and ditched the steppers
[18:51:05] <danimal_garage> but those are probably already claimed by my pendant
[18:51:47] <danimal_garage> i guess i need to do some work today
[18:51:49] <tom3p> skynk reminded me that the stock cfgs for the daughterboards didnt advertise that the 5i20 can handle opto22 racks with choice of in/out for every bit
[18:52:13] <tom3p> so, since some of my devices are opto isolated, i just used cables :)
[18:52:27] <pcw_home> if you need 24VDC I/O we will have some serial replacements of the 7I37 etc which will use much fewer FPGA I/O pins
[18:53:04] <danimal_garage> pcw_home, i just need more outputs mostly
[18:53:20] <pcw_home> 24V?
[18:53:24] <danimal_garage> yes
[18:53:35] <danimal_garage> i have a 7i37, 7i42, and 7i33
[18:53:50] <danimal_garage> most of my inputs go to the 7i42
[18:54:10] <atmega> I've almost had some, but they are too difficult to buy from.
[18:54:33] <pcw_home> OK you could use a 7I64 but its a little awkward to wire (like the 7I37) maybe better to wait for the 7I66
[18:55:10] <danimal_garage> is the 7i66 serial or does it hook to the 5i20?
[18:55:51] <pcw_home> its serial (isolated RS-422 at 2.5 to 10 mBits/s) and connects to the 5I20
[18:56:29] <danimal_garage> ah ok
[18:56:36] <danimal_garage> how many outputs?
[18:56:53] <pcw_home> 7I66-24 has 24
[18:57:13] <pcw_home> 7I64 has 24 outputs and 24 inputs
[18:57:53] <pcw_home> 7I71 has 48 350 mA outputs (7I66/7I64 is 2A)
[18:58:34] <pcw_home> you can hang 8 of these serial cards from one 5I20 connector
[18:58:50] <danimal_garage> wow
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[19:00:56] <danimal_garage> so i need the 7i33, and i need about 24 inputs.... how many outputs can i get out of the 5i20 on top of that?
[19:01:20] <pcw_home> 384
[19:03:31] <danimal_garage> haha ok i guess i'm covered!
[19:04:35] <danimal_garage> i guess i can pawn off the 7i37 and 7i42.... i'll have to figure out exactly what i need for i/o and give you a shout
[19:04:56] <danimal_garage> is this stuff all released, or will i have to wait?
[19:06:33] <tom3p> 384 i/o or 384 outputs (8spi x [24in +24outs]) enuf fer sure, just need to be careful buying right stuff.
[19:06:34] <tom3p> hey I'd pay to send in a list of i/o needed and get a quote for the sugested hardware
[19:06:50] <pcw_home> No released except the 7i64. next will be 7I66-8 and 7I66-24, then 7I69,7I70,7I71,7I73 (7I69 is 48 TTL I/O, 7I73 in pendant I/O)
[19:07:16] <pcw_home> (is pendant)
[19:07:34] <danimal_garage> what's the wait on most of that?
[19:07:44] <pcw_home> 7I64 is supported in master
[19:09:09] <pcw_home> probably still another month for the 7I66 and 7I73 if we didn't screw up anything badly in the PCBs
[19:09:10] <pcw_home> other are about 2 months away
[19:09:17] <danimal_garage> i'd be pretty safe with 50 inputs and 100 outputs
[19:09:34] <danimal_garage> that would actually be mega overkill
[19:09:59] <tom3p> whats the interface for? i have loads of 8 bits to select and drive
[19:11:17] <danimal_garage> mostly 12 or 24v output, and just push buttons and home/limit switches for the inputs
[19:11:40] <danimal_garage> i have no parport on this mobo
[19:13:23] <tom3p> eg: i need digital current select & enables thats: 8 bits +8 bits, same for process set points (8in + 8 out to dacs), i blow thru 16bits at each oldschool knob
[19:13:32] <tom3p> so the new io boards will be great
[19:17:59] <danimal_garage> oh i dont know anything about bits
[19:18:28] <danimal_garage> i be unedumikated in that department
[19:19:58] <danimal_garage> well i gotta run, time to get some work done!
[19:20:00] <danimal_garage> adios
[19:20:03] <tom3p> np best of luck with 50 in and 100 out, will listen with interest
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[19:35:18] <skunkworks> heh - the k&t only has 512mb ram - and it is using 41% with emc running
[19:35:25] <skunkworks> Got to love linux
[19:45:13] <alex_joni> cool
[19:46:11] <Tom_itx> do those atom boards come with the plugs for the internal parport and serial?
[19:46:21] <psha> no
[19:46:26] <Tom_itx> figures
[19:46:39] <psha> however there is 525 board with soldered DB25 for parport
[19:47:18] <psha> http://resources.mini-box.com/online/MBD-I-D525MWV/moreimages/MDB-I-D525MWV-b3.jpg
[19:47:20] <Tom_itx> i probably have plugs here
[19:47:41] <Tom_itx> yeah that's one of the 2 i was looking at
[19:48:32] <Tom_itx> i wonder if the 4pin pwr plug is 'required'
[19:50:56] <Tom_itx> it would be nice to be able to use the picopsu on it
[19:53:13] <psha> heh, read in tech description from intel site
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[19:56:49] <danimal_garage> oh crap, the 510 does have a parport
[19:58:07] <pcw_home> yes its on a 26 pin header
[19:58:28] <danimal_garage> cool. i thought it didnt have one
[19:59:58] <danimal_garage> i should get one of these for my van
[20:00:19] <danimal_garage> for streaming netflix and whatnot
[20:06:03] <psha> danimal_garage: if you have not one of 26-ping header to DB-25 and want to connect directly beware that pin numberes on header and DB-25 are different
[20:08:29] <danimal_garage> good to know psha, thanks
[20:08:37] <danimal_garage> i'll probably never use it
[20:08:42] <danimal_garage> but who knows
[20:11:50] <Tom_itx> is it a mini 26pin header or standard?
[20:12:15] <danimal_garage> doesnt look mini
[20:12:23] <danimal_garage> but what do i know
[20:12:52] <Tom_itx> i got a bunch of the mini on these pc104s
[20:13:53] <pcw_home> Standard
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[20:24:51] <mrsunshine> psha, relating to my rambling about the D510 ? :P
[20:25:17] <danimal_garage> tillman leather welding gloves work awesome for handling metal chips
[20:26:04] <mrsunshine> oo just got a flashback from when i was drilling and for some reason felt like "lets feel how hot the chips are" .. and well it was hot, and jagged and i cut my finger very badly with the spinal reaction to my arm :P
[20:26:41] <danimal_garage> ouch!
[20:26:59] <mrsunshine> ye learned then not to touch the things that comes from agressive drilling :P
[20:27:04] <danimal_garage> i was just wearing them to empty the chips from my lathe
[20:27:14] <danimal_garage> they were all cool
[20:27:19] <mrsunshine> they are so god damn sharp tho =)
[20:27:31] <mrsunshine> so gloves is a good idea =)
[20:27:45] <danimal_garage> but i played tug-o-war with some wirey chips that were razor sharp and they didnt penetrate the gloves at all
[20:27:49] <psha> mrsunshine: no, to my rambling ;)
[20:28:25] <mrsunshine> psha, you also had poroblems with getting "does this cable fit for the db25 thingie?" :P
[20:28:52] <psha> no, i has problems with 'why that ^%!@! controller is not working when connected directly to header' :)
[20:29:07] <mrsunshine> oh =)
[20:29:30] <mrsunshine> gave me an idea to make a bob that you put int he computer tho =)
[20:29:41] <mrsunshine> with screw plints comming out on the backside :P
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[20:38:22] <danimal_garage> i gotta start cleaning my shop for that photoshoot
[20:38:35] <danimal_garage> NOT gunna have fun cleaning
[20:38:46] <danimal_garage> anyone wanna help?
[20:40:00] <alex_joni> sure
[20:40:09] <alex_joni> can you wait a couple weeks for me to get there?
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[20:41:14] <danimal_garage> no, but i'm sure it will be messy again by the time you get here
[20:42:45] <mrsunshine> danimal_garage, wtf? .. clean for a photoshoot ?
[20:42:56] <mrsunshine> how are people gonna tell that you actualy do something? :P
[20:43:10] <danimal_garage> lol
[20:43:24] <mrsunshine> its like on cnc cookbook ... looking at the shops there
[20:43:35] <mrsunshine> cleaned and degreased to the last little higgs bison ...
[20:43:55] <mrsunshine> its like "wtf, they have allt hese machines but does not do anything with them?"
[20:44:10] <danimal_garage> yea, unfortunately you're not the masses
[20:44:24] <mrsunshine> danimal_garage, aw =)
[20:44:36] <mrsunshine> sure i like it tidy but when its spotless its just like .. "yeah right"
[20:44:40] <danimal_garage> the masses say "wtf? i'm not buying parts made on those old beat up machines. he cant even clean!"
[20:44:58] <danimal_garage> well my shop isnt even tidy, not even close
[20:45:05] <mrsunshine> either they just built it all and hjust let it stand or they take 99.9% of their time cleaning and 0.01% of the time going to the bathroom :P
[20:46:36] <mrsunshine> hope ive gotten my so called uncles? (fathers brothers) to clean out the shit in this house so we can call it ours soon, and i cand o what the heck i like
[20:46:42] <mrsunshine> man im gonna do some magic with it
[20:46:48] <mrsunshine> (put alot of machines in it :P )
[20:46:58] <mrsunshine> (that is run from computers)
[20:47:09] <mrsunshine> (that they in the 15th century would call magic)
[20:47:10] <mrsunshine> :P
[20:48:20] <danimal_garage> lol
[20:48:51] <mrsunshine> hope i get my casting for the motormount done tomorrow
[20:49:10] <mrsunshine> dont want to do it as i do it outside and i got quite yelled at from one of my uncles cause of me trashing them on facebook :P
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[21:16:11] <MattyMatt> 4 core 20A armoured flex in UK http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/50m-Propower-SY4C-4-Core-Armoured-Control-Cable-Q3TG-/330526283094
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[21:17:57] <MattyMatt> I'd have that myself if my plans had progressed that far :p
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[21:24:28] <ries> Guys, I have a pinion question. If my outer diameter of my pinion is 33mm, and the distance between each tooth as measured on the accompanied rack is 5.1mm. Can I then calculated the travel for 1 revolution of a pinion on my rack?
[21:24:49] <ries> or is this simply pi*D ?
[21:25:54] <Tom_itx> what's the rack pitch?
[21:26:10] <Tom_itx> that'll tell you the distance x number of teeth
[21:26:18] <ries> Tom_itx:I have nu clue how to measure that
[21:26:47] <Tom_itx> pick a point on the tooth and measure to the same point on the next tooth
[21:27:14] <Tom_itx> that will give you teeth per unit (mm or inch)
[21:27:29] <Tom_itx> count your pinion teeth
[21:27:31] <ries> on my rack it's 5.1mm
[21:27:42] <ries> so I should meadure it on the pinion?
[21:27:44] <ries> measure
[21:28:38] <ries> Calculated on my pinion for my 22tooth pinion, and other diameter is 33mm it would be 5.18mm
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[21:38:30] <archivist> on your rack measure over 10 or as many teeth as you can
[21:40:14] <ries> archivist: I am pretty sure it's 5.1mm per tooth, that's also in the spec when I got them. But What I am trying to understand what the travel is for one revolution of my pinion.
[21:42:07] <ries> I think what I am trying to understand is what my pitch circle is
[21:42:29] <archivist> teeth * pitch
[21:42:53] <archivist> = circumference of pcd
[21:44:00] <archivist> 5.1 seems an odd size is it a metric MOD gear or a DP imperial
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[21:45:24] <archivist> Im guessing 16DP
[21:45:45] <archivist> .1963" pitch
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[21:47:48] <ries> I should have bought it metrical
[21:49:05] <archivist> Im looking in a gear book and dont see 5.1mm
[21:49:31] <ries> Hmmm
[21:49:39] <archivist> 16dp is 4.98602
[21:49:58] <ries> let me check again
[21:51:22] <zephyr-cnc2> I have read the wiki and added the ngc.lang file for gedit but so far on all 3 of my computers I can't variables like #<variable> to highlight properly in my .ngc files. Any ideas about what might be wrong?
[21:51:26] <archivist> do you have a MOD number for it probably close to 1.7
[21:54:10] <ries> archivist: you might be right with 16DP
[21:54:58] <ries> I the mail exchange they mentioned 5.1mm... and since I was measuring very close, I assumed it was right.
[21:56:36] <archivist> people do make odd sizes, so measure carefully :) being as its a rack that is easy
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[22:07:53] <ries> I measure 141.3mm at 30teeth on my rack :s
[22:08:11] <ries> That's 4.7mm
[22:08:31] <ries> getting crazy here :D
[22:11:29] <andypugh> MattyMatt: Not a colossal bargain, that wire. I can buy it from the place across the road. http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Cable_Index/Multi-Flex/index.html
[22:12:08] <archivist> ries 4.712= 1.5 MOD and for that a 20 tooth pinion is 33mm od
[22:12:32] <ries> archivist: cool.... so I know what I have now :9
[22:12:35] <archivist> pcd is 30mm
[22:13:00] <ries> thanks for confirming
[22:13:31] <archivist> unless you missed telling me something like helical
[22:13:53] <archivist> I used to make gears
[22:15:24] <Tom_itx> i bet helical gears are fun to do
[22:15:38] <ries> archivist: no helical...
[22:15:44] <archivist> ries, download the catalogue from here http://www.hpcgears.com/downloads.htm
[22:16:03] <archivist> I always have a paper one near me
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[22:16:27] <archivist> Tom_itx, yup as the pcd changes
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[22:29:36] <MattyMatt> andypugh: cheers. nice to know for when I am running 20A motors :)
[22:31:35] <MattyMatt> 5.08mm is 0.2". that's more likely than 51
[22:31:40] <MattyMatt> 5.1
[22:33:05] <MattyMatt> so use an inch ruler and see if 10" mark is exactly lined up with a tooth
[22:34:35] <archivist> he has measured properly and we now know
[22:35:11] <MattyMatt> if he counted 30 teeth correctly :)
[22:35:50] <Tom_itx> set it up on a granite plate and measure it with a cmm
[22:36:04] <andypugh> MattyMatt: http://www.maplin.co.uk/4-pole-speakon-connector-1389
[22:36:28] <andypugh> I am using those for my motors. 250V and 20A rating. Ignore the fact that they are supposedly for speaker.
[22:37:07] <andypugh> They are a very nicely engineered plug, and very nice to use. And the price is right.
[22:38:25] <MattyMatt> yeah good match for the flex. and I guess if they're airtight they're pretty good with coolant too
[22:40:10] <MattyMatt> I'm gonna be getting a cheap lathe in a couple of weeks, and I've already started making a plywood mini slantbed
[22:40:46] <MattyMatt> slantbed won't need armoured cables tho, mostly they'll be outside the box
[22:41:05] <andypugh> I wouldn't want to bet on that last bit. I think that the chassis socket is airtight in that the terminals are moulded in, but there is nothing to keep water out of the contacts.
[22:42:02] <MattyMatt> good point, but that was a minor consideration
[22:42:24] <MattyMatt> it'll keep the coolant out of the electronics box at least
[22:43:03] <MattyMatt> so for an auxiliary socket for a rotary etc, it'd be handy
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[22:43:52] <andypugh> I run my rotary through the little Maplin multipoles. The Speakons are used for the 3-phase motors.
[22:44:18] <andypugh> (Though I might well have put the steppers on Speakons if I had found them in time.)
[22:45:40] <MattyMatt> I've finally started stiffening the mill. I put together my first reprap and some of the fit was appalling
[22:46:06] <MattyMatt> so, it's not even fit for quality woodwork as it is :)
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[22:47:33] <MattyMatt> my delrin pulleys are proving popular tho. the lathes will pay for themselves making those
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[22:49:15] <MattyMatt> I wish I could have a power chuck on the slantbed, for full production with a bar feeder
[22:50:43] <MattyMatt> ah I gotta stop using wood. I'll buy a basic lathe first to speed up pulley production, sell all I can and buy steel to make the slantbed
[22:51:54] <andypugh> Aye, there is probably a good reason that most machine tools are not made of wood.
[22:52:43] <MattyMatt> I'll leave the mk1 mostly wood tho. pushing a dremel isn't too stressful
[22:53:13] <MattyMatt> just a few key parts need stiffening
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[22:54:41] <MattyMatt> the drawer slides under the table I still consider a success. they're still great, but on the lighter axes they're just too flimsy
[22:57:26] <andypugh> I have some filing cabinet slides I found in the skip at work. No idea what I am going to do with them, possibly toolchanger slideways.
[22:57:48] <MattyMatt> I need to do some metalwork before I can do decent woodwork in future, whatever happens. I need a surface plate next
[22:58:26] <MattyMatt> I ground the base of a helping-hands flat as a DTI stand/surface gauge :)
[22:58:46] <andypugh> Your parsimony does you credit.
[22:59:02] <MattyMatt> I've got it flat enough to determine that the mirror I've been using isn't very flat
[22:59:14] <andypugh> That's a surprise.
[22:59:55] <MattyMatt> it's in a frame with a wooden back. the warp in the wood is twisting the mirror I think
[23:01:50] <MattyMatt> an angle plate I made (from a bit of rusty 3x3x¼" angle) rocks when across the mirror, but not when along it
[23:02:50] <MattyMatt> I'm quite proud of that. only one weeks work to save £15 :p
[23:03:52] <MattyMatt> it's all good meditative stuff while I'm waiting for a cheque to get on and buy some real tools
[23:05:29] <MattyMatt> and build a real bench. trying to file sth flat in a wobbly vice is no fun
[23:10:09] <MattyMatt> there was an 18" cast iron surface table from Rolls Royce on ebay a few days ago. I was hoping nobody else had spotted that :)
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[23:11:30] <MattyMatt> I'll get a granite one and stop meesing about. use one side for measuring, the other for lapping
[23:11:52] <MattyMatt> if they come with 2 good surfaces that is
[23:12:46] <MattyMatt> bleh, it would mean rsting it face down, so I won't do that
[23:28:27] <Sairon> ji
[23:28:29] <Sairon> er, hi
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[23:30:03] <frallzor> hola sombreros
[23:31:38] <Jymmm> "Hi Hats"???????????
[23:31:54] <Jymmm> frallzor: why are you talking to clothing for?
[23:32:45] <frallzor> why not =P
[23:33:14] <Jymmm> because they give you special jacket for doing that
[23:33:14] <danimal_garage> adios pantalones
[23:33:31] <Jymmm> "bye panties" ?! WTF
[23:33:42] <danimal_garage> pants
[23:33:46] <danimal_garage> not panties
[23:33:53] <Sairon> are you sure?
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