#emc | Logs for 2011-01-11

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[00:00:36] <andypugh> Time to grossly abuse my bathroom scales, I think :-)
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[00:12:43] <elmo40> >_<
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[00:20:17] <andypugh> Well, that was inconclusive. The knee weighs more that 21.5 stones.
[00:21:40] <JT-Shop> wow that is more than me
[00:22:03] <elmo40> I only weigh 10.5 stones
[00:22:19] <JT-Shop> I wish I weighed 12 stone
[00:23:18] <JT-Shop> anyone know why I can access my 10.04 Ubuntu computers through my network without a password while I can freely get to my 8.04 Ubuntu computer from my winblows computers
[00:23:35] <JT-Shop> I have all the Ubuntu shares set up the same
[00:28:03] * JT-Shop ponders how to get the table saw out of the corner it has been exiled too...
[00:29:55] <andypugh> Does it weigh more than a duck?
[00:31:39] <andypugh> Does this sound right? By my calculations the torque needed on a ballscrew is independent of the diameter for the same pitch?
[00:32:08] <andypugh> (Ponder) Makes sense.
[00:32:11] <JT-Shop> sounds logical to me
[00:32:58] <andypugh> Put a handle on the end, that moves a certain distance, and the nut moves one pitch, and all you need to consider is that ratios of the distances
[00:33:00] <JT-Shop> it's pretty heavy with a cast iron table... but it is on wheels
[00:33:14] <andypugh> In that case I doubt you can float it out.
[00:33:29] <JT-Shop> don't think I want to try that
[00:35:10] <andypugh> My dad is regretting not buying his chain lever wonch several decades ago. It makes shifting machines trivial.
[00:35:17] <andypugh> (winch)
[00:39:51] <JT-Shop> they can be quite handy
[00:41:10] <JT-Shop> I use a couple of cable lever winches (come along) with a snatch block (return sheave)
[00:41:40] <JT-Shop> well I got it out of the corner, now to out think it to the door
[00:42:33] <andypugh> It's got wheels you say?
[00:42:42] <JT-Shop> on the table saw yes
[00:42:54] <JT-Shop> and heavy moving wheels too for machines
[00:43:01] <andypugh> Got any spare steppers? With only a few days work you could drive it out with a USB gamepad + EMC2
[00:43:33] <JT-Shop> I have a few spare brushed servos... and a Nema 17 stepper
[00:44:12] <andypugh> There you are then, what could be simpler?
[00:44:35] <JT-Shop> I think I'll just move some stuff and roll it to the door :)
[00:49:02] <skunkworks> for some reason I thought the diameter was taken into account. because of the lever from the center to the radious
[00:49:07] <skunkworks> radius
[00:49:26] * skunkworks should go look at the formula again
[00:49:49] <andypugh> I did, but then you get a shallower ramp angle with the larger diameter, so it cancels out again.
[00:50:04] <JT-Shop> I'm sure there is some difference but I would expect it to be small from a 1" to 2" screw but from 1" to 64" yea
[00:51:57] <SWPadnos> ballscrew diameter might matter if you were calculating pressure on the balls or races or something, but for linear motion, it has no bearing on force applied to the machine
[00:52:30] <SWPadnos> of course, it matters for other reasons, such as how much it'll twist or compress due to the torque and linear force involved
[00:52:34] <JT-Shop> just the inertia would be different with different diameter screws
[00:52:34] <toastyde1th> large ballscrews can have a very negative effect on a machine that is not kinematically isolated from the screw
[00:52:47] <andypugh> I have also calculated that my motors should lift the table very comfortably with a 5mm pitch ballscrew.
[00:52:54] <SWPadnos> sure, momentum is another excellent thing that matters :)
[00:53:40] <andypugh> ie, at rated torque (presumably conservative) they can lift the table with no gear reduction, and they have 4:1 reduction.
[00:54:18] <SWPadnos> the torque rating is probably a little conservative, but not by too much
[00:54:56] <SWPadnos> continuous torque is more or less a heat rating, whereas peak torque is a "don't do this or you'll break something" rating
[00:55:37] <andypugh> I am working on continuous torque.
[00:55:57] <SWPadnos> as you should
[00:56:35] <andypugh> Well, the load is not continuous at all in a CNC application.
[00:56:56] <SWPadnos> it could be continuous for some time
[00:57:16] <SWPadnos> (drilling an array of holes, for example)
[00:57:55] <andypugh> Actually, in this case, supporting the weight of the table, I guess it probably will be
[00:58:05] <andypugh> Unless I fit a counterbalance.
[00:58:21] <SWPadnos> hopefully not, or you'll be in trouble for accel in the up direction
[00:58:54] <andypugh> Well, 200kg static load, and another 600kgf for accelleration
[01:00:06] <andypugh> I think I need to wire up the motors and see if they can shift the acme screw. I suspect not.
[01:00:31] <Valen> andypugh: if you use a ballscrew with that weight, watch out for it free running
[01:00:38] <andypugh> Though the Acme is supposedly 50% efficient, so maybe.
[01:01:14] <Valen> ours free spins without some added stuff , but then ours is drect drive
[01:01:50] <andypugh> The reason I stuck with the acme was to avoid the table dropping when depowered. It looks like it might stop it moving when powered, though :-)
[01:02:16] <Valen> also unless your doing continuous profiling there shouldn't be too much of an issue with routinley exceding the continious torque rating
[01:02:36] <JT-Shop> my shop is like a helicopter :/
[01:02:44] <andypugh> My Z hardly ever moves.
[01:03:09] <andypugh> Well, during drilling and boring it does, but I don't do any proper 3D stuff
[01:03:33] <Valen> at peak torque the motors iron bits will be saturated, it just won't put more torque out regardless of how much power you put in
[01:06:17] <Valen> but as long as they dont go over like 80C they should be ok
[01:06:56] <Valen> also the point toastyde1th made was a good one
[01:07:05] <toastyde1th> ?
[01:07:09] <toastyde1th> oh.
[01:07:13] <Valen> our screw is a little bent and you notice it in the output a little
[01:07:41] <toastyde1th> one of the ultraprecision lathes we had uses this enormous kinematic mount thing to attach to the ballnut
[01:07:43] <Valen> we are as immune to it as one can be, because we use the linear scales for our feedback not the motor rotation
[01:07:54] <toastyde1th> the machine goes all over the place if you mount the screw directly to the table
[01:08:23] <toastyde1th> the screw will push the table around in all directions and cause geometric errors
[01:08:32] <Valen> but there is a small periodic wave in the ferror still
[01:08:40] <Valen> although its .002mm ferror now ;->
[01:09:09] <toastyde1th> ah, that'll still get you even with a kinematic mount
[01:10:21] <Valen> be nice if it could predict that it was there
[01:10:40] <Valen> there is room for something much better than PID for control of this kind of machine
[01:10:46] <Valen> (the crap kind)
[01:10:49] <andypugh> Does the issue still arise with a static screw? My arrangement is a rotating nut.
[01:11:33] <Valen> the pushing the axis around will still happen, the periodic i dunno
[01:11:40] <toastyde1th> andypugh, yeh
[01:11:40] <Valen> probably less so
[01:12:07] <toastyde1th> between the motor and the nut should be a kinematic mounting, in that case
[01:12:15] <toastyde1th> but like, to be clear? that's kind of a accuracy nerd type thing
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[01:12:38] <andypugh> I was assuming that, and rather ignoring the issue.
[01:13:00] <Valen> for us its pretty noticable, but our Z axis is only supported at one end
[01:13:08] <Valen> and its an error along the axis
[01:14:16] <toastyde1th> along the axis won't be helped by kinematic mounting
[01:14:28] <toastyde1th> only errors in other axes
[01:14:46] <andypugh> Big question is whether I dare pull the transformer out of the power supply to go to full rated voltage
[01:14:59] <Valen> meh if you've got it use it
[01:15:16] <andypugh> I have been develooping with a slightly less frightening 70V
[01:15:17] <Valen> big thing to watch for is having the Z axis motor sitting there pushing the whole time
[01:15:27] <Valen> 70v will still wake you up ;->
[01:15:43] <Valen> mains here is 240, gives you a good tickle
[01:15:53] <andypugh> True, but it's a lot less than the 300 I get from regulated mains
[01:16:08] <Valen> heh
[01:16:32] <Valen> our rectified mains is over 400 odd volts ;->
[01:16:56] <Valen> I think the weirdest thing about me going to USA would be the 60hz mains hum vs our 50
[01:17:01] <andypugh> I made a PSU with a voltage doubler (just a case of wiring two caps into the bridge rectifier) and that was giving me 640V DC and 2uF. I got frigtened and stopped.
[01:17:10] <Valen> sensible
[01:17:29] <andypugh> We have 230V mains too.
[01:17:39] <Valen> unlike the guy who made the 30kv spark gap flash unit ;->
[01:17:41] <andypugh> I need to check what it rectifies to.
[01:17:49] <Valen> be about the same as ours
[01:18:05] <andypugh> 400-odd is outside the spec of the drives.
[01:18:16] <Valen> heh our new specification is 220v +20 -5% or something stupid,
[01:18:23] <andypugh> I might need a site transformer.
[01:18:33] <Valen> in other words its 240v
[01:19:05] <andypugh> Yeah, we were 240 but then the EU harmonised at 230, so like you we are 230 +20 -5
[01:19:38] <Valen> ahh sorry thought you were USA with 110v for some reason
[01:20:05] <Valen> I reckon mains should be 300Vdc
[01:20:08] <andypugh> Do I sound like a yank?
[01:20:12] <andypugh> Bah!
[01:20:23] <Valen> lol no, you havent used yall even once
[01:20:27] <JT-Shop> 120v/240v here in swamp east Missouri
[01:20:52] <JT-Shop> ain't no yankees around here :)
[01:21:10] <andypugh> I wonder if I can find somewhere for a 200kg block of lead to use as a counterweight?
[01:22:06] <Valen> better off using air
[01:22:17] <JT-Shop> nuclear power plants have plenty
[01:22:17] <Valen> otherwise you need to accelerate 400kg
[01:23:21] <JT-Shop> but you have gravity on 200kg of it assisting
[01:23:43] <andypugh> 25cm x 25cm x 25cm. Not too huge
[01:24:22] <andypugh> You still need to accelerate it. (Or looked at another way, it gets left behind by gravity as you accellerate the other side)
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[01:24:53] <andypugh> Kinematically it counts as 200kg moving mass
[01:25:43] <andypugh> a 20x20x20 block of Osmium would work better.
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[01:26:30] <andypugh> Iike the idea of an air balance. With a relieving regulator it will "Just Work"
[01:28:04] <JT-Shop> how is the air balance different than a counterweight barring frictional losses?
[01:29:06] <andypugh> The air balance doesn't add any moving mass
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[01:29:22] <andypugh> (It is also a lot easier to package)
[01:30:33] <JT-Shop> aye I agree that a pneumatic cylinder is easier to install... so moving up gravity is a plus but moving down (with a counter weight) you are accelerating 400kg?
[01:31:18] * JT-Shop gets the dinner bell from the wife talk to you later
[01:31:34] <andypugh> Cheaper, too. 200kg of lead scrap would be about £200
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[01:52:46] <elmo40> JT-Shop: what was the question again? can you not access certain linux boxes from windows?
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[02:30:37] <skunkworks> our k&t is counter balanced with hydraulics. There is a relief valve when the axis goes down.
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[02:36:53] <toastyde1th> most of the machines i have used just have a counterweight
[02:37:09] <toastyde1th> from what i can see there's no substantial downside to it, even with the extra inertia
[02:46:43] <Roguish> hey, it andypugh around???
[02:47:24] <Roguish> gotta let him know i got a motor to run with my 5i20 and 7i39!!!!
[02:49:47] <Valen> toastyde1th: you could get harmonics and other oddness more easily
[02:49:53] <Valen> it'd limit acceleration as well
[02:50:03] <Valen> Roguish: well done
[02:51:00] <toastyde1th> harmonics and other oddness?
[02:51:09] <toastyde1th> i have not seen anything to that effect
[02:51:39] <toastyde1th> esp. on something with such a loose coupling
[02:51:55] <toastyde1th> most vibration modes come from the rigid parts of the machine
[02:52:20] <toastyde1th> besides, an air or hydraulic piston would do the same
[02:54:09] <Valen> lower frequency stuff than that
[02:54:16] <Valen> think standing waves in cables and such like
[02:54:45] <toastyde1th> I can't see how anything like that would be a problem
[02:55:05] <toastyde1th> even if the cable were doing all kinds of crazy gyrations
[02:55:30] <Valen> you cant see a standing wave in the cable causing an isssue?
[02:55:49] <toastyde1th> not in a counterweight cable, no
[02:56:14] <toastyde1th> esp compared to the much more powerful standing waves that develop elsewhere in the machine
[02:56:23] <Valen> they are high frequency
[02:56:35] <Valen> this would be much lower frequency
[02:57:21] <toastyde1th> machines are preternaturally rigid at low frequencies
[02:57:42] <toastyde1th> and thus i am not worried about a cable playing jump rope between the head and a counterweight
[03:02:19] <Valen> and you cant see the counterweight jumping around causing an issue
[03:03:07] <toastyde1th> i am saying i doubt the effect will be anywhere near strong enough at the frequencies the cable will resonate at to cause any problem.
[03:04:47] <emcrules_laptop> I have seen chain used for counterweighting a z-azis. It was on a 3 spindle mill
[03:04:58] <toastyde1th> that's the common method, yes
[03:05:12] <toastyde1th> with the weight hanging down in the column
[03:05:18] <toastyde1th> on a way
[03:05:29] <toastyde1th> sometimes it's driven by the same screw the head is
[03:07:02] <emcrules_laptop> this one the counter weight was at the back of the machine nowhere near a screw or way
[03:07:22] <toastyde1th> not all are, i'm just mentioning other types of counterweight configurations
[03:07:46] <emcrules_laptop> what are you counter weighting?
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[03:08:22] <toastyde1th> the head
[03:08:24] <mikegg> Microlution makes a machine that uses an pneumatic cylinder because you can't exceed 1g with a counterweight...
[03:08:25] <toastyde1th> on a bed mill
[03:08:45] <toastyde1th> mikegg, yes you can, that's why machines have driven counterweights.
[03:09:01] <mikegg> oh, cool
[03:09:08] <mikegg> didn't know they did that
[03:09:58] <emcrules_laptop> Im actually thinking of counter-weighting my mill
[03:10:20] <toastyde1th> most smaller mills, say under 20x40, aren't counterweighted
[03:10:52] <toastyde1th> the mori that i used to run had a 3000 lb head, that warranted a counterweight
[03:11:01] <toastyde1th> most heads are under 500 lbs and don't really need one
[03:11:41] <emcrules_laptop> ya i have only seen it used on medium sized mills and larger
[03:13:53] <emcrules_laptop> I get a thump in mine everytime I drop the knee
[03:14:38] <toastyde1th> sounds like an overtight gib?
[03:20:13] <emcrules_laptop> Ive had a friend check them and they are fine.
[03:22:16] <toastyde1th> weird stuff
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[06:38:37] <voxadam> Can anyone explain what smart serial (sserial) is and what it can be used for?
[06:41:05] <psha> andy can :)
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[07:48:41] <TonnyG> Hi
[07:48:42] <the_wench> hello TonnyG, you have a question?
[07:49:29] <TonnyG> where is Task_Controller on emc2 source code?
[07:52:19] <TonnyG> ...
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[07:53:23] <psha> hm, run away...
[07:57:23] <psha> the_wench: you have to lear how to anwser questions!
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[08:46:42] <celeron55> somebody should remove that line from the bot :P
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[10:57:43] <Mendelbuild> MattyMatt: hey, u here?
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[11:17:52] <MattyMatt> I am
[11:18:12] <Mendelbuild> :D
[11:18:19] <Mendelbuild> how is the milling going
[11:18:30] <Mendelbuild> have you made more kits ?
[11:18:46] <MattyMatt> I have 2 more nearly ready to go
[11:19:16] <MattyMatt> 1 more really, I'm keeping the other
[11:19:25] <Mendelbuild> cool :D did someone build a mendel from it ?
[11:19:32] <Mendelbuild> the one complete
[11:19:42] <Mendelbuild> would be fun to see how it looks
[11:19:51] <MattyMatt> I've not heard back yet
[11:20:15] <MattyMatt> I won't pester him yet, until I have some improved parts to send him
[11:20:31] <Mendelbuild> :)
[11:20:56] <Mendelbuild> got my multicam machine up and running now
[11:21:16] <Mendelbuild> but im stuck with factory software
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[11:21:23] <MattyMatt> neat. the F22 sth?
[11:21:27] <Mendelbuild> yeah
[11:21:42] <Mendelbuild> everything works, but i dont have "control" over the results
[11:22:00] <Mendelbuild> probably havent got settings right in the designer software
[11:22:21] <MattyMatt> does it work with raw gcode?
[11:22:39] <Mendelbuild> havent tested yet
[11:22:47] <Mendelbuild> only took some example files
[11:23:03] <MattyMatt> is the original controller still fitted?
[11:23:07] <Mendelbuild> yeah
[11:23:30] <Mendelbuild> as long as it works ill probably keep it, but i will make my own mill
[11:23:46] <Mendelbuild> i want something that i can run emc and mach on
[11:23:58] <MattyMatt> I can see the appeal of stripping them out now. you lose the lovely controls but you gain compatability with every other emc2 machine
[11:25:03] <MattyMatt> the best of both worlds would be to hack the firmware of that to be emc and/or mach compatable :)
[11:25:11] <Mendelbuild> the good thing about the machine i have now is that it has a good controller and it can be operated by anyone (as long as the files are setup right)
[11:25:38] <MattyMatt> what does it use for file storage?
[11:25:46] <Mendelbuild> dnc server
[11:26:08] <Mendelbuild> i just put files into a folder and it becomes accessible from the controllerbox
[11:26:12] <MattyMatt> a cool, so a linux PC via ethernet?
[11:26:21] <MattyMatt> sweet
[11:26:35] <Mendelbuild> vmware with windows 98 right now :P and dnc server
[11:26:46] <Mendelbuild> couldnt run 16 bits on Win7 rofl
[11:27:21] <Mendelbuild> but i am thinking of integrating a computer in it
[11:27:29] <MattyMatt> you can on XP, but you pay the price in security
[11:27:30] <Mendelbuild> so i have direct ethernet into controllerbox
[11:27:57] <Mendelbuild> security isnt an issue here, its not online
[11:27:58] <MattyMatt> yeah that'd be a plan
[11:28:14] <Mendelbuild> its online but only local ;) skipped gateway and dns :P
[11:28:28] <MattyMatt> yet. once you have ether it's tempting to plug into your router, etc etc
[11:29:07] <Mendelbuild> but since i use vmware right now i have the image file on disc so i can easily fix it
[11:29:34] <MattyMatt> with the PC inside, you could arrange a switch to bypass the controller to the drivers
[11:29:53] <Mendelbuild> hmm
[11:29:59] <Mendelbuild> great idea
[11:30:08] <Mendelbuild> i could put another controller in that box
[11:30:11] <Mendelbuild> its huge
[11:30:48] <Mendelbuild> if i figure out the servo/stepper drivers i could do that
[11:31:01] <Mendelbuild> just put a EMC compatible controllerboard into it
[11:31:08] <MattyMatt> it'd be nice to use the control panel with the PC if possible too, but that's more work (or more switches)
[11:31:54] <MattyMatt> stepper drive signals will be easy to figure out. servos not much harder I guess
[11:32:10] <Mendelbuild> im not really sure what i have
[11:32:16] <Mendelbuild> seller said servo
[11:32:28] <Mendelbuild> but he also told me other lies
[11:32:45] <Mendelbuild> or didnt know better i think
[11:33:01] <MattyMatt> eek gotta go to the metal shop before they shut for lunch. bbiab
[11:33:11] <Mendelbuild> :) cya
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[12:18:54] <MattyMatt> ouch. £27 for 4m of 8mm drill rod
[12:19:54] <MattyMatt> cut up into 1ft lengths, I guess that's fairly typical
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[12:31:36] <Valen> how well do you think normal concrete would go for a base for a mill
[12:33:13] <Valen> MattyMatt: what kits?
[12:34:19] <MattyMatt> reprap mendel kits, the RP parts milled in wood
[12:35:00] <MattyMatt> the bottom is dropping out of that market now, there's enough working ones in the wild to self-replicate
[12:37:17] <MattyMatt> I'll be able to support myself and a lathe making the unprintable metal bits tho :)
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[12:38:06] <MattyMatt> printed gears and pulleys do work, but not as well as machined ones
[12:39:10] <Valen> I like that when some guy made a part for his dishwasher it was big news
[12:39:26] <Valen> seemed like the first time one of them had made something usefull
[12:39:39] <MattyMatt> the latest version uses plastic slides on metal rails. next stage is plastic-on-plastic
[12:39:51] <Valen> sounds accurate
[12:40:41] <Valen> planning our new desktop mill
[12:40:49] <MattyMatt> if the plastic is delrin, no reason it shouldn't be accurate enough
[12:41:07] <Valen> $1200 in linear slides and blocks
[12:41:51] <Valen> 900mmX900X400, weighs 300kg
[12:41:52] <MattyMatt> eek. would unsupported 12mm round shaft be enough for any of it?
[12:42:16] <Valen> each block we are using is rated to 2300lbs lol
[12:43:25] <Valen> in the supported round slides the smallest we wanted to use was 25mm
[12:43:50] <MattyMatt> this is still good value for someone http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/46-linear-bearing-bearings-LME12UU-linear-bush-bushing-/250477871058
[12:44:14] <MattyMatt> it's hard to argue with the price, it's just a shame they're not bigger
[12:44:44] <Valen> you can get them in 25mm
[12:45:04] <Valen> crap 46 bearings for $56?
[12:45:05] <MattyMatt> not at $56 for 46 of them
[12:45:10] <Valen> holy crap!
[12:45:12] <MattyMatt> yep
[12:45:26] <MattyMatt> it's a real deal. I know someone in Seattle got some
[12:45:51] <Valen> thats nuts
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[12:46:34] <Valen> whats the load rating on the 12mm?
[12:47:53] <MattyMatt> says 60kgf dynamic in the table, but that looks like a typo
[12:48:09] <MattyMatt> the 16mm one is 49
[12:48:36] <MattyMatt> 51kg static
[12:51:18] <alex_joni> MattyMatt: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/6pcs-SBR20-linear-supported-rails-12-pcs-SBR20UU-/250530434798?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a54c70eee#ht_832wt_948
[12:52:20] <MattyMatt> almost the perfect length for my machine too :) although I'd want longer for my Y
[12:53:23] <MattyMatt> I'm not building a new machine just yet, I don't think
[12:53:49] <MattyMatt> I'll stiffen my wood & drawer slide effort first
[12:54:57] <MattyMatt> I just attempted to purchase the metal for that, but the local stockist was out of 1/4" thick U channel
[12:57:57] <MattyMatt> and 1/8" wouldn't have been much better than the laminated oak I'm using
[13:00:16] <MattyMatt> I should have asked about steel square tube, but I didn't want to get into a discussion of AWG with a salesgirl without www for ref
[13:02:29] <MattyMatt> I think we use AWG for tube thickness here, when we don't use metric
[13:03:33] <alex_joni> ROFLMAO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEt0fV4Foeg
[13:03:36] <MattyMatt> 115 years since we officially went metric :)
[13:04:26] <Valen> I wouldn't bother with drawer slides
[13:04:34] <Valen> but I spose I want to cut steel
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[13:08:16] <MattyMatt> I'm working my way up to cutting steel
[13:10:12] <MattyMatt> with a bit of reinforcement I'll be able to tackle mild steel and alu, and then I'm in the upward spiral
[13:10:47] <MattyMatt> or maybe I'll just build a steel machine and keep the wood one for woodwork :)
[13:14:08] <MattyMatt> there was a nice benchtop horizontal mill went cheap on ebay last week, but that'd need quite exotic tooling
[13:15:36] <MattyMatt> exotic by my standards anyway
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[13:21:22] <MattyMatt> alex_joni: I hate car adverts, even that one :)
[13:22:18] <MattyMatt> new cars are only new for a day
[13:22:33] <alex_joni> I certainly wouldn't buy one
[13:22:41] <MattyMatt> by the time they are 20 years old, you know if they are any good or not
[13:22:55] <alex_joni> that depends how long you want to keep it
[13:23:31] <MattyMatt> IMO, if you want to keep it, you ought to be able to fix it. that's nearly impossible with modern ones
[13:24:12] <MattyMatt> they should supply the diagnostic machine with them, at least
[13:25:09] <psha[work]> not car advert: http://video.yandex.ru/users/mail-blog/view/19#hq web design with plasticine :)
[13:28:38] <MattyMatt> nice :)
[13:31:38] <MattyMatt> I've seen a game done like that
[13:33:04] <MattyMatt> right, time to ruin my favourite hacksaw blade cutting this drill rod
[13:34:12] <MattyMatt> maybe not. this ancient blade cuts mild steel so sweetly I think I'll keep it for that
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[13:44:56] <Mendelbuild> MattyMatt: :seems like i could convert my machine pretty easy
[13:45:03] <Mendelbuild> its not servos
[13:45:06] <Mendelbuild> its steppers
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[16:28:15] <skunkworks> is it firday yet.
[16:28:36] <skunkworks> firday?
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[16:30:03] <psha> hm, seem no
[16:30:09] <psha> but it was first working day here
[16:30:23] <psha> roads are empty, work is silent...
[16:32:31] <skunkworks> it snowed again here. You would think people in wisconsin would know how to drive in snow.
[16:33:32] <psha> you say that like 'but surely they wont!'
[16:34:28] <skunkworks> quite a few people in the ditch
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[16:34:47] <skunkworks> and driving waaaay to slow
[16:35:02] <atmega> O
[16:35:20] <atmega> I'm in southern NC, we got 2" of snow yesterday and the city is still shut down.
[16:36:57] <psha> snow driving is fun :) surely if you keep in mind that you breaking distance is 2-3 times longer :)
[16:37:22] <psha> and if you have winter tires :)
[16:40:49] <atmega> it snows here maybe once every 2-3 years, nobody has winter tires.
[16:41:36] <psha> how you are living without snow!? :)
[16:41:45] <atmega> very well thank you.
[16:48:13] <JT-Shop> atmega: my sister lives in Concord and Mom lives in Greesboro... I use to love to visit my Grandparents farm in Greensboro when I was little
[16:49:23] <JT-Shop> my little sister in Atlanta got 6" of snow then sleet and ice yesterday
[16:49:33] <JT-Shop> we got 10mm here last night
[16:50:36] <atmega> they get a lot more snow/ice over there than we do. We have the normally warm ocean/gulf-stream
[16:52:36] <atmega> they get ice, snow, autumn... we get the beach, WW2 shipwrecks to dive, alligators, hurricanes.
[16:54:20] <psha> yea, warm water greatly increases average winter temperature
[17:04:22] <JT-Shop> you must be near the coast then atmega, alligators that far north? I never would have guessed
[17:04:45] <atmega> half a mile or so
[17:05:03] <atmega> they get a little more north than here, but not much.
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[17:10:34] <psha> i'd prefer snow to crocodiles ;)
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[17:39:18] <TonnyG> where is 'task controller' on emc2 source code?
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[17:51:10] <pcw_home> [emc2.git]/src/emc/task/ ?
[18:10:38] <TonnyG> i ll go try to take look.
[18:11:51] <TonnyG> thank. :)
[18:16:04] <pcw_home> git.linuxcnc.org and just go down the tree
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[19:06:08] <TonnyG> i need to upgrade emc2(i fail to do it). i need emc2 list of dependency, to download them.
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[19:06:30] <TonnyG> i need to upgrade emc2(i fail to do it). i need emc2 list of dependency, to download them.
[19:06:47] <TonnyG> (sorry echo)
[19:08:34] <cradek> the easiest way to upgrade is to just run apt-get upgrade
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[19:20:24] <TonnyG> i should connect to the internet to do it?
[19:20:58] <psha> never! it'll be shipped to you with morning newspapers
[19:21:21] <TonnyG> hehe... alraight
[19:21:34] <TonnyG> i think i should.
[19:23:01] <TonnyG> but i try this (extract emc2 source, goto emc source directory and do sudo apt-get build-dep emc2)
[19:23:30] <TonnyG> is this correct? (i turn modem on, but still fail)
[19:23:37] <cradek> what is your goal?
[19:24:11] <psha> for 'build-dep' you need 'deb-src' line in sources.list
[19:24:25] <TonnyG> same as yesterday... upgrade to emc2 v2.4.6 i download from git
[19:25:06] <TonnyG> (i install livecd to hdd then do upgrade)
[19:26:07] <cradek> to update to 2.4.6, just run apt-get upgrade
[19:26:20] <cradek> don't build the source unless you need to for some other reason.
[19:29:28] <TonnyG> (mr.psha, i ll trying to locate it)
[19:30:05] <TonnyG> i need to do some tweak on lpt pin source code
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[19:31:33] <TonnyG> actually
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[19:32:57] <TonnyG> instead change any *.ini
[19:35:03] <TonnyG> in the future... axis-gui on other computer
[19:36:55] <psha> heh, you want to maintain you own changes instead of .ini configurations? :)
[19:37:39] <cradek> what is your goal in more detail?
[19:38:50] <TonnyG> more stable and easy to attach on my machine.
[19:40:20] <psha> technicaly, not literaly
[19:40:24] <TonnyG> i have 2 card pci-lpt right now... works okey on win
[19:40:49] <TonnyG> both on the same pc
[19:42:22] <cradek> ok...?
[19:43:25] <TonnyG> not ok on livecd... and axis keep pop ing error on latency and rtai
[19:44:55] <psha> maybe something with latency and rtai?
[19:44:57] <psha> and not in axis?
[19:46:25] <TonnyG> im going to try debuging my error..
[19:47:57] <psha> latency test is ok?
[19:48:01] <TonnyG> ok
[19:48:34] <TonnyG> latency test not popping any error
[19:50:02] <psha> it won't pop any error even if your latency is somewhere between awful and horrible
[19:50:27] <TonnyG> ?
[19:50:42] <TonnyG> any sugestion?
[19:51:14] <awallin> compare the numbers against the list in the wiki
[19:53:34] <TonnyG> list?
[19:53:55] <awallin> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Latency-Test
[19:54:10] <awallin>
[19:56:22] <TonnyG> i have that 6 variable
[19:57:15] <psha> 6?
[19:58:17] <TonnyG> max nterval, max jitter, last interval ---- servo thread, base thread
[19:59:00] <TonnyG> i have vga on board... is it problem?
[19:59:28] <awallin> the max jitter values should be around what other people get in that table
[20:02:43] <TonnyG> ...maybe, i have 40xxx max.jitter-base thread
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[20:03:32] <TonnyG> nS
[20:04:11] <psha> that's large
[20:04:21] <psha> and you want to run base thread with such jitter?
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[20:04:46] <psha> which is typicaly 100us as i recall
[20:04:59] <TonnyG> i dont really know whats base thread actually...
[20:05:39] <TonnyG> can sme one explain to me?
[20:06:32] <awallin> if you want to run steppers off the parallel port you need a machine with good latency-test numbers (or you need to tweak your current machine...)
[20:06:41] <skunkworks> base thread is normally 1ms -> 1000us or 1000000 in the ini (us)
[20:07:16] <TonnyG> (all i know, if i use stepper (and not servo-mesa) base thread is the one.)
[20:08:27] <TonnyG> <skunkworks> 1mS as 2 VALUE of uS????
[20:08:33] <skunkworks> * base thread is normally 1ms -> 1000us or 1000000 in the ini (ns)
[20:08:38] <TonnyG> ah
[20:09:02] <awallin> umm, I thought servo-thread is usually 1ms, but whatever...
[20:09:15] <skunkworks> jeezes
[20:09:16] <psha> skunkworks: base thread is 100ms i think
[20:09:20] <psha> 100us
[20:09:25] <TonnyG> yeah i lil forgot
[20:09:26] <psha> and servo ~1ms
[20:09:27] <awallin> :)
[20:09:31] <skunkworks> * base thread is normally 1ms -> 1000us or 1000000 in the ini (ns)
[20:09:38] <skunkworks> * servo thread is normally 1ms -> 1000us or 1000000 in the ini (ns)
[20:09:40] <skunkworks> there!
[20:09:52] <psha> there - you have equal numbers :)
[20:10:22] <skunkworks> sometimes I should not be allowed in front of the keyboard when I am preoccupied
[20:10:34] <psha> i've 40us base thread
[20:10:50] <psha> (not i, but on system i've configured
[20:10:51] <psha> )
[20:10:56] <TonnyG> <skunkworks> love!
[20:12:28] <psha> TonnyG: so you have to configure HW to get good latency first
[20:12:34] <TonnyG> if ihave 40xxx lets just say 42000 nS it s mean 42uS right it is ok then
[20:12:45] <psha> if you still get 40us latency you would not be able to run base thread
[20:12:52] <psha> ok?
[20:12:56] <TonnyG> how mr.psha?
[20:12:58] <psha> i've 40us base _period_
[20:13:03] <psha> not jitter
[20:13:46] <psha> what's you base period in config file?
[20:13:57] <TonnyG> so, i must do tweak.
[20:14:28] <TonnyG> config file? i dont know where?
[20:15:15] <skunkworks> if you have a base thread of 20us - and jitter of 10us - your base thread actual timing could be anywhere from 10us to 30us.
[20:15:47] * skunkworks wonders if he said that right
[20:16:48] <TonnyG> 1ms -> 1000us or 1000000 in the ini (ns) is correct mr.skunkworks
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[20:17:52] <TonnyG> mr.skunkworks last statement... i ll do the calc.
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[20:18:50] <TonnyG> so, i must use max.interval vs max jitter right?
[20:19:05] <TonnyG> of base thread
[20:19:26] <psha> max interval is given just FYI
[20:19:32] <psha> important number is jitter
[20:20:52] <TonnyG> i should put the "max_jitter-base_thread" on config_file, mr.psha?
[20:21:14] <skunkworks> so if you have a jitter of 40us - you could never have a base thread of 30us. there would be times that the base thread would be skipped 30us-40us = -10us -> time travel!
[20:21:19] <TonnyG> (after some tweak)
[20:22:03] <psha> you should run stepconf and enter jitter there :
[20:22:04] <psha> )
[20:22:05] <TonnyG> wiki said "If the Max Jitter is more like 30-50 microseconds, you can still get good results,"
[20:23:08] <psha> yes, but you base thread would be pretty slow
[20:23:23] <psha> 60-70us
[20:25:08] <skunkworks> it might be better to figure out what max step rate you need and then figure out if the computer can do it :)
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[20:25:44] <TonnyG> ofcourse i would like to have as fast as it can get
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[20:26:33] <TonnyG> but my computer might have these limitation u describe.
[20:28:03] <TonnyG> stepconf, ok. :>
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[20:36:51] <psha> stepconf is just user friendly way to get base period from jitter
[20:39:35] <TonnyG> thanks all, i should try it.
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[21:12:02] <andypugh> I definitely need to get the solid state relay wired in to control the VFD on my mill.
[21:12:42] <andypugh> Directly switched is too much of "where in the mains cycle it is" lottery.
[21:13:32] <MendelUSER> andypugh hey
[21:14:47] <andypugh> Ahoy
[21:15:14] <andypugh> (Avoiding saying "hi" to bypass the welcomebot)
[21:15:28] <MendelUSER> lol
[21:15:44] MendelUSER is now known as mendelbuild
[21:16:13] <mendelbuild> figured out my mystery hardware now
[21:16:22] <mendelbuild> http://www.pacsci.com/support/step_motor_drives/6410support.html got those drivers
[21:16:27] <mendelbuild> seems like its steppers
[21:17:18] <mendelbuild> should make the job easier converting :D
[21:17:53] <ries> hi :D
[21:18:05] <ries> andypugh: what welcome bot???
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[21:19:40] <andypugh> mendelbuild: You can plug EMC2 and a Parallel port direct into the drives :-)
[21:20:16] <mendelbuild> oh, that makes one happy
[21:20:18] <mendelbuild> :D
[21:21:17] <celeron55> ries: try without the ":D"
[21:21:44] <celeron55> oh, the bot is not here at the moment
[21:22:04] <ries> ahhh ok...
[21:22:45] <andypugh> mendelbuild: It's not the best solution, I suspect, as that leaves you without all the control panels doing very much (I suspect) but you will have a far better motion planner.
[21:23:23] <andypugh> However, it does mean that you can experiment for free.
[21:24:38] <mendelbuild> yeah, but hmm
[21:25:06] <mendelbuild> i thought i needed more than a paralell cable to do it, i have 3 boards like that
[21:25:13] <mendelbuild> one for each motor
[21:25:42] <TonnyG> hi welcomebot
[21:25:52] <TonnyG> ah. not there
[21:26:22] <TonnyG> btw. my axis has big font
[21:27:00] <TonnyG> i need to set vga driver on linux, any suggestion on how can i do that?
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[21:27:16] <mendelbuild> oh not sure if Xf86config still exists
[21:27:31] <mendelbuild> havent played with linux for a while
[21:27:36] <celeron55> TonnyG: google for "ubuntu xorg config" or something
[21:28:09] <andypugh> You can comfortably run 3 step/direction dries from one parallel port. You can even manage 4.
[21:28:24] <mendelbuild> :) cool
[21:28:30] <TonnyG> ok. thanks
[21:28:31] <celeron55> now you can run 12 motors!
[21:28:54] <mendelbuild> yeah ;) just wait ill hook up my 12 axis router ;)
[21:29:19] <TonnyG> how about 2 lpt port? any successed
[21:29:19] <celeron55> i wonder what would the axes 6...12 do
[21:29:40] <TonnyG> how to set it up?
[21:29:43] <mendelbuild> i could tell you but that is classified informating
[21:29:49] <mendelbuild> ;)
[21:29:59] <TonnyG> ah?
[21:30:03] <celeron55> TonnyG: it's not too difficult afaik
[21:30:21] <mendelbuild> ill keep my 3 axis for now
[21:30:23] <mendelbuild> :)
[21:30:55] <TonnyG> come on, tell me...
[21:31:01] <TonnyG> :)
[21:31:12] <celeron55> look up in the docs, i don't know
[21:32:18] <TonnyG> find the address(2 of them) set the pin out ?
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[21:34:59] <andypugh> EMC can run as many P-Ports as you can fit in the machine.
[21:35:51] <andypugh> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html/hal_parallel_port.html
[21:36:18] <andypugh> JT-Shop: You changed the Docs, took me ages to find the p-port page now it has a sensible link!
[21:37:24] <TonnyG> ah. found it! thanks again mr.andypugh
[21:37:34] <TonnyG> ofcourse.
[21:40:06] <JT-Shop> andypugh: LOL
[21:40:48] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: busy?
[21:40:53] <andypugh> mendelbuild: How much peripheral IO does the router have, ie what other control panels, limit switches, toolchangers, feedback, vacuum... etc does it have?
[21:40:58] <JT-Shop> yea framing up a wall
[21:41:07] <JT-Shop> before I freeze and it gets dark
[21:41:14] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: you cant frame and type at the same time silly
[21:42:11] <Jymmm> Well, unless you like your walls -----/\/--------
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[22:01:15] <andypugh> mendelbuild: Reading the driver manual, it looks like you could be up and running with EMC2 in an afternoon, using Stepconf. To an extent just disconnect the existing control wires to the drives, plug in emc2 and go. You probably need to power up some of the old controller to get the PSU going and the E-stop etc doing its thing.
[22:03:28] <TonnyG> what if EMC2 run on http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/
[22:03:48] <TonnyG> i know, rtai problem...
[22:04:07] <TonnyG> with the dsl kernel
[22:05:33] <andypugh> You probably could, but it would be a lot of work, and what would you gain?
[22:06:15] <TonnyG> u right... it just if. already-liveCD is just today kick
[22:06:56] <TonnyG> and it only 600mb cd
[22:07:39] <DaViruz> i run emc on crux (a distro), took some doing but i like the result
[22:07:43] <TonnyG> lot of feature equiped.
[22:09:20] <TonnyG> crux... maybe someday you could tell in document on how you done it
[22:09:37] <TonnyG> :)
[22:10:01] <andypugh> DSL was really cool when USB sticks were 32MB. Now i have Ubuntu bootable in one corner of the one I carry everywhere in my wallet. (I think the _original_ DSL was intended for business-card sized CDs
[22:13:38] <TonnyG> haha... i m afraid, u re right.
[22:14:30] <TonnyG> 2gb stick are easy to get these days
[22:14:43] <TonnyG> even 4gb
[22:19:37] <andypugh> 4G are cheap. Less than £5
[22:23:43] <TonnyG> yeah. could buy as many as we want it to if we speak about any experiment.
[22:29:07] <TonnyG> gtg. thanks to anyone including mr.davirus
[22:29:12] <TonnyG> :)
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