#emc | Logs for 2010-12-13

[00:03:55] <theorb> theorb is now known as theorbtwo
[01:08:59] <juri__> juri__ is now known as juri_
[02:17:04] <Alan78> hello
[02:17:04] <the_wench> hello Alan78, you have a question?
[02:17:31] <Alan78> hi dimas :)
[02:18:24] <dimas> hi
[02:18:25] <the_wench> hello dimas, you have a question?
[02:52:28] <klick0> hi
[02:52:29] <the_wench> hello klick0, you have a question?
[02:52:43] <klick0> hi
[02:52:43] <the_wench> hello klick0, you have a question?
[02:54:36] <klick0> i can't remember off the top of my head, but i did the latency test on my existing cnc machine computer, and it was aroudn 7000ns max jitter (amd athlon xp 2700 i think) then i had a new computer that I was wanting to upgrade to, and it got 87000ns jitter, it's a quad core something, not i5 or i7, and not speedy, but years ahead of the althon, is this normal? Shoudl I be concerned with 87000ns latency?
[02:55:03] <cradek> 87000 is pretty bad if you want to do software step generation
[02:55:24] <cradek> 20000-25000 is a machine that's working well; many have lower numbers
[02:55:38] <cradek> your quad core might be put to better use doing something else...
[02:56:05] <klick0> hmm, alright
[02:56:19] <klick0> i think it's a Q6600
[02:56:23] <klick0> almost positve
[02:56:34] <klick0> seems odd that it would return such slow results
[02:58:03] <klick0> what's the best cpu to use? or cpu/motherboard combo, searching i haven't found much
[02:58:23] <klick0> i just ordered a pci parallel card based upon the wiki, granted i now am doubting this computer
[02:58:25] <cradek> we have a wiki page with a listing - I doubt there's a single best cpu
[02:58:39] <Valen> the atom mbo's seem to be doing the job well
[02:58:49] <cradek> yes people seem to really like them
[02:58:53] <Valen> I have one
[02:58:55] <Valen> worked well
[02:59:20] <cradek> they're cheap too
[02:59:28] <Valen> ticks all my boxes
[02:59:37] <cradek> I don't buy new hardware, so I don't know about current stuff.
[02:59:49] <Valen> a little on the weedy side when your trying to do lots of interweb surfing is the only down side
[02:59:52] <klick0> i have a few atom mobo's
[02:59:56] <klick0> 1.6ghz as i recall
[03:00:04] <Valen> the dual core atoms work best
[03:00:09] <klick0> don't have one of those
[03:00:19] <Valen> with isocpus set (which i think might be the default)
[03:00:36] <Valen> I havent tried the single core but if you have one floating about give it a test
[03:00:42] <klick0> i don't buy new hardware hahha, well you have to buy hardware at some point :)
[03:01:33] <cradek> I bought a new computer once in about '95 - cost a fortune
[03:01:41] <klick0> do amd cpus generally have better latency then intel? I'd imagine it might have more to do with chipset then cpu.. well obviously it had something to do with clockrate, but clockrate plus chipset, i dunno
[03:02:12] <klick0> I'm on an intel core i870 extreme overclocked to 4.2ghz, not sure what this would do, 12 cores, probably not good
[03:02:14] <cradek> now computers are piled everywhere - ask and someone will give you one
[03:02:54] <Valen> hyperthreading is very bad
[03:03:16] <Valen> also you want to check isocpus is set if your on a SMP machine
[03:03:26] <Valen> HT kills latency numbers
[03:03:37] <cradek> isolcpus
[03:03:45] <Valen> yah that thingie
[03:03:48] <cradek> (isol = isolate)
[03:04:01] <Valen> i was just over shortning
[03:04:10] <cradek> shortening
[03:04:14] <cradek> :-)
[03:04:34] <klick0> hehe
[03:05:02] <klick0> i had the old 8.04 emc install, and did the distribution upgrade to 10.04, is that not recommended? cause all the emc stuff seemed to disappear
[03:05:04] <klick0> i backed up first
[03:05:16] <klick0> i'm just going to load 10.04 straight, but the upgrade didn't seem to work..
[03:05:38] <cradek> yeah their upgrade doesn't know about our kernel
[03:06:31] <klick0> ahh, darn
[03:06:57] <cradek> you could probably fix it with enough massaging - but a new install is so easy
[03:07:08] <klick0> yea, that's what i figure
[03:07:21] <cradek> not warning on front page of http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/
[03:07:24] <cradek> note
[03:07:25] <klick0> granted i just found out the dvd in that puter doesn't seem to work, probably to much sawdust over the years
[03:07:41] <Valen> wont do it any favours
[03:07:52] <cradek> optical drives are always a pain
[03:08:02] <Valen> * Valen tires to install from USB these days
[03:08:18] <klick0> it's old enough that it doesn't seem to watn to boot from usb, gotta find a cd/dvd drive around here somewhere
[03:27:35] <klick0> what kind of latency numbers do you guys have on your puters?
[03:29:30] <juri_> 0. my computer is perfect.
[03:29:56] <klick0> ok hmmm, if xwindows doens't start on the livecd, what shoudl i do, startx results in... nothing, i waited 15 minutes, it just blanks the screen, is there a command line installer, i have a command line
[03:33:36] <cradek> running latency test now on mine - getting 6301 ns
[03:33:41] <cradek> this is a good machine
[03:33:57] <klick0> what is ti? cpu?
[03:34:21] <cradek> dual processor P3 1000 running with isolcpus=1
[03:35:31] <klick0> so isolcpus removes the second cpu in your case
[03:35:42] <cradek> yes it uses it only for the realtime threads
[03:35:57] <Connor> Hey guys, I just switched out to a 1/8" Spiral Upcut.. (from a 1/4" one) and Doing some testing... I'm cutting MDF.. My part came out kinda rough... What do I need to do? Fast RPM ? Slower Feed Rate?
[03:36:23] <cradek> twice the rpm will give you the same surface speed as before
[03:36:57] <cradek> you may have worse chip ejection too, since the flutes are much smaller
[03:37:20] <cradek> heh 'chip' of mdf?
[03:37:22] <Connor> Will that improve my cut? Do I'm running the feed rate pretty fast.. I feel like I need to slow it down..
[03:38:05] <cradek> you'll probably have to just experiment
[03:38:14] <cradek> I have no experience cutting MDF
[03:38:29] <toastydeath> dust will shit up a cutter just as fast as chips will, i always called it a chip
[03:38:36] <toastydeath> graphite does the same thing
[03:38:36] <Jymmm> pics?
[03:38:38] <cradek> but you probably need all the rpm you can get
[03:38:45] <Valen> 4000 or so on my dual core atom
[03:38:59] <Connor> How deep should each pass be ?
[03:39:09] <Connor> I'm currently doing .125"
[03:39:23] <cradek> is one side exposed or is the cutter buried?
[03:39:25] <Jymmm> pics?
[03:39:34] <toastydeath> your depth shouldn't really affect blowout
[03:39:37] <Jymmm> rpm?
[03:39:52] <Connor> Let me take a picture.. brb
[03:40:07] <Connor> RPM, not sure.. it's setting 4 on my Bosch Router.
[03:40:18] <Jymmm> pics or router
[03:40:24] <cradek> 4 rpm is way too slow :-)
[03:40:25] <Jymmm> of
[03:40:29] <toastydeath> how old's the cutter
[03:41:04] <Connor> brand new
[03:44:32] <klick0> 4 rpm ahah
[03:45:34] <Jymmm> * Jymmm has NEVER EVER worked with mdf... http://i52.tinypic.com/r1lwra.jpg nope never http://i55.tinypic.com/28lf0b6.jpg and never will http://i54.tinypic.com/28ilw0w.jpg
[03:47:53] <Connor> http://www.ivdc.com/cnc/dustshoe/
[03:49:20] <Jymmm> Connor: Too bad
[03:49:33] <Connor> Huh?
[03:49:40] <Jymmm> Connor: Oh, btw. I know what you rpoblem is
[03:50:06] <Jymmm> Connor: did you see the pics I posted?
[03:50:24] <Connor> Yea. What's too bad? and what is my problem ? :)
[03:50:57] <Jymmm> Connor: you would have to be cutting MDF, to have suck results with MDF
[03:51:44] <Jymmm> your cutting particla board
[03:51:48] <Jymmm> not mdf
[03:52:15] <Jymmm> there are no fiber strands in mdf, there are in partical board
[03:52:19] <Connor> Ummm.. I don't think so.
[03:52:24] <Connor> It's MDF.
[03:52:25] <Jymmm> I KNOW so
[03:52:36] <Jymmm> see bottom left http://www.ivdc.com/cnc/dustshoe/1.jpg
[03:52:55] <Jymmm> there is no mixed specs of color in MDF either
[03:53:32] <Jymmm> See the pyramid I made, each step is .125" wide and height
[03:54:02] <Connor> I dunno.. It's the same stuff I used to build my whole machine out of...
[03:54:13] <Connor> sold as MDF.
[03:54:29] <Connor> Maybe it's a bad batch or something..
[03:54:31] <Jymmm> the pics are NOT MDF. that's fiberboard at the very least
[03:55:34] <Jymmm> look at this http://oi55.tinypic.com/28lf0b6.jpg
[03:55:47] <Jymmm> there is no discoloration, no fiber strands
[03:56:00] <Jymmm> ignore the grease hand prints
[03:56:15] <Jymmm> those tracks are .125 wide
[03:56:35] <Jymmm> maybe .126 I think the ball was .125"
[03:56:47] <Connor> What was your feed rate?
[03:56:57] <Jymmm> what is your spindle speed?
[03:57:12] <Connor> I had it on setting 4 on the Bosch Colt.
[03:57:58] <Jymmm> out of?
[03:58:27] <Jymmm> No Load RPM: 16,000 - 35,000
[03:58:39] <Connor> out of 6
[03:58:46] <Connor> Not sure it's linear thoguh.
[03:58:47] <Jymmm> so that's fine. besides mdf isn't that dark in color
[03:59:04] <Jymmm> it's almost blonde, not beige
[03:59:37] <Jymmm> compare your pics with mine
[04:00:05] <Connor> http://www.ivdc.com/cnc/ look at some of those pics.. that's the machine.. it's made from the same stuff..
[04:30:09] <klick0> are you sure since you transistoned from 1/8 to 1/4 you didn't switch directions? it doesn't appear as if you're climb milling, that's my guess, i dunno
[04:32:56] <klick0> er, 1/4 to 1/8
[04:37:37] <Connor> I've switched to CamBAM. I'm not sure how it's doing it.
[04:38:05] <Connor> okay, it's cutting CW
[04:38:37] <Connor> anyone know how to change the default jog rate in CamBAM so it doesn't take forever to go from one point to another (when not cutting)
[04:41:58] <klick0> CW is probably wrong
[04:42:23] <klick0> i'm pretty sure CCW is the way to cut, am i thinking wrong, anyone else?
[04:42:57] <klick0> I could walk 20 feet and check, but i think CCW is the way you want to cut when it's the outter cut of the piece
[04:43:19] <Connor> I lowered the feed rate, and increased the RPM of the spindle.
[04:43:21] <klick0> ok, i'm gonna go look
[04:43:30] <Connor> That's just it.. all inside and outside cuts looked like that...
[04:44:25] <klick0> ok, well if on the outside cut it's going CW, that is wrong
[04:44:29] <klick0> and it will look like shit
[04:44:39] <Connor> It is.
[04:44:41] <Connor> and it does.
[04:44:42] <klick0> inside cuts should go CW
[04:44:47] <klick0> outisde cuts should go CCW
[04:45:13] <Connor> I just looked at the circle part that it cut out..
[04:45:24] <klick0> i've cut many materials in the wrong direction, but no MDF, i would expect MDF to look horrific if cut in the wrong direction though
[04:45:24] <Connor> the scrap looks 100 times better..
[04:45:30] <Connor> and it was cut CW also.
[04:45:45] <klick0> yea, there you go
[04:46:03] <klick0> if the scrap looks good, then that's your problem
[04:46:09] <Connor> almost done with this last pass.
[04:51:22] <klick0> results?
[04:52:51] <Connor> Just finished.
[04:53:07] <Connor> Better.. but, still not as smooth as it should be..
[04:53:32] <Connor> Looks way better on the back cut..
[04:58:08] <Connor> I'm starting to wonder if acceleration is causing issues too.. some of my holes are a little strange..
[04:58:37] <klick0> are you cutting CCW for outside pieces now?
[04:59:07] <Connor> I've not change the file yet.. still looking over the 2nd one.
[04:59:13] <klick0> i cut MDF yesterday, V-carved and plunge cut many surfaces with an 1/8 inch bit, no problems
[04:59:49] <klick0> i use an 1/8 inch drill mill, which is a v-carve bit with an end mill for the rest of it
[05:00:09] <klick0> with MDF, no problems, bought cheap MDF from home depot
[05:00:19] <Connor> Same stuff here.
[05:01:12] <Connor> okay.. so, here's the deal.. on the inside cuts.. To the right,, and front.. are clean... as it comes around.. it gets those funky groves.
[05:01:14] <klick0> you need to cut outside pieces CCW, if you are not, they will look horrible guarenteed
[05:01:53] <klick0> MDF will be fuzzy, but clean after cutting
[05:01:54] <Connor> on the outside cut.. the left and front are clean,,
[05:02:11] <Connor> not talking fuzzy.. talking groves that kinda match the bit..
[05:03:18] <klick0> ok, inside cuts are what direction and outside cuts are what direction?
[05:03:34] <Connor> all the same ATM.. CW
[05:04:13] <Connor> spindle turns CCW
[05:05:29] <klick0> what spindle do you have?
[05:05:37] <Connor> Bosch Colt.
[05:06:31] <klick0> use sure about that CCW, ever standard router in the world spins CW
[05:06:47] <klick0> CCW spindles are spindles over $3000
[05:06:51] <Connor> let me double check.. be right back.
[05:07:23] <Connor> okay. I'm stupid.
[05:07:29] <Connor> I'm getting tiered..
[05:07:38] <klick0> ok, so it's spinning CW
[05:07:50] <Connor> Spindle is CW, cuts are going CCW
[05:07:57] <klick0> which means inside pieces should be cut CW and outisde pieces CCW
[05:08:00] <Connor> No wait.
[05:08:03] <Connor> one sec..
[05:08:08] <Connor> let me check something.
[05:08:25] <Alan78> anybody knows how active heekscnc in heeckscad?
[05:09:19] <Connor> CamBAM says conventional.. I have no idea what that means.. but, that's the same on all the cuts.
[05:09:28] <Connor> and, that looked to be CCW
[05:10:53] <klick0> conventional milling will look horrible
[05:10:57] <klick0> climb milling will look good
[05:11:08] <klick0> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milling_cutter#Conventional_milling_versus_climb_milling
[05:11:49] <klick0> course i really don't know, i've never done MDF conventional, but i'm guessing it won't look good
[05:12:15] <klick0> most materials look better with climb milling, i've never done conventional milling, ever
[05:12:28] <klick0> no material i've ever worked with required conventional
[05:12:34] <Connor> I'm also trying to figure out why my holes are not perfectly round.. I know when I used the 1/4" bit.. they did.
[05:12:37] <klick0> almost needed climb milling
[05:13:03] <klick0> if your holes aren't perfectly round, you have an issue with backlash
[05:13:21] <Connor> Hmm..
[05:13:31] <Connor> That's odd.. because, I didn't before.
[05:13:37] <klick0> that's a whole different subject
[05:13:42] <klick0> before what?
[05:14:03] <klick0> backlash can depend upon load, material, etc,
[05:56:47] <Connor> why in the world would a CAM package make a circle from 3 segments?
[05:59:30] <toastydeath> three.. segments?
[06:00:47] <Connor> 3 arcs.
[06:02:47] <Jymmm> http://www.woodmagazine.com/materials-guide/lumber/sheet-goods-selector/?page=2
[06:05:04] <Connor> My MDF looks like the top one in that first picture.
[06:05:40] <Jymmm> mine looks liek the bottom
[07:08:06] <Tech_Talk> Tech_Talk is now known as Birdman3131
[07:54:52] <mhaberler_> mhaberler_ is now known as mhaberler
[11:15:00] <archivist_emc> archivist_emc is now known as archivist
[12:15:49] <UncleG> Anyone in here using a laser?
[12:22:03] <archivist_emc> yes some are, ask the real question though someone may know the answer
[12:24:27] <UncleG> I just wanna see some work done by one
[12:24:33] <UncleG> what their capabilities are
[12:29:02] <archivist_emc> this was an emc project http://www.andrewkilpatrick.org/?p=laser_cutter
[12:31:04] <archivist_emc> micges has some in production http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/uploads/DSC00075.JPG
[12:31:10] <UncleG> yeah I read that before he did a nice job
[12:32:04] <UncleG> I wonder how practical it would be to hold flat high quality blade steel and cut knifes without using much grinding.
[12:32:34] <UncleG> just put it in a rotary 4th axix to cut the angle
[12:32:40] <archivist_emc> wrong method due to the cutting temp
[12:32:46] <UncleG> yeah
[12:32:52] <UncleG> I just dont know that much about them
[12:33:00] <archivist_emc> water jet would be better
[12:33:19] <UncleG> edm?
[12:34:02] <archivist_emc> still lots of grinding and polishing
[12:34:04] <Valen> water jet
[12:34:14] <Valen> you can do angle cuts with water jet too
[12:34:19] <UncleG> sweet
[12:34:27] <UncleG> I should build one
[12:35:12] <Valen> be verry VERY carefull
[12:35:23] <UncleG> I figure if we all had our own machine and just passed off work to eachother to keep shipping cost down we could definately donate some more back to the community. =D
[12:35:26] <Valen> guy I know ran a water jet cleaning company
[12:35:31] <UncleG> yeah?
[12:35:48] <Valen> somebody was doing abrasive blasting and got a pinhole in the hose
[12:35:55] <Valen> blew his shoulder full of water and sand
[12:35:59] <UncleG> O.o
[12:36:06] <UncleG> no fun
[12:36:10] <Valen> was like a grapefruit
[12:36:16] <Valen> deep inside
[12:36:18] <UncleG> wickid
[12:36:21] <Valen> like it cut into bone
[12:36:24] <UncleG> sounds terrible
[12:36:33] <Valen> yeah, like i said, be carefull
[12:36:42] <Valen> waterjet cutters run much higher pressures
[12:37:25] <UncleG> I'll start out with a squirt gun and when I got that I'll crack er up.
[12:37:50] <UncleG> I just got swampped with work on my ACME's and Davenport
[12:37:55] <Valen> just saying, use rated hoses and the like, and put them inside boxes
[12:38:04] <UncleG> funny how it all comes at once.
[12:38:28] <UncleG> yeah I know better when It comes to high pressure and high voltage.
[12:39:03] <Valen> no worries, I'm not saying not to do it, its just everybody is aware of laser safety, nobody seems to know about water
[12:39:15] <Valen> dihydrogen monoxide man, its nasty stuff
[12:39:42] <UncleG> Im sure with the time in it I will learn on the way
[12:40:47] <UncleG> Im still adding new bells and whistles to my current project, maybe sometime in the future ?I can build a cnc laser/waterjet combo,
[12:41:17] <UncleG> ill be heading out
[12:41:19] <Valen> bed time for me
[12:41:19] <UncleG> take care
[12:41:21] <Valen> catchya
[12:41:26] <UncleG> l8r
[15:02:25] <skunkworks> as to not show my stupidity on the list. How would you output a 1khz square wave in a 1khz base period? I would think unless you got really fancy - you would end up with 500hz - turning the bit on in one cycle and off in the next and so on.
[15:03:54] <cradek> you can't do it with 50% duty cycle since that's an output change at 2kHz
[15:04:20] <cradek> you could easily turn the signal on, then back off, every thread invocation.
[15:04:51] <cradek> that would give you 1kHz frequency.
[15:05:06] <cradek> say more about what you're trying to do, for a better answer :-)
[15:05:19] <skunkworks> the charge pump issue
[15:05:20] <psha_> psha_ is now known as psha
[15:05:59] <cradek> yeah, won't really work - an even duty cycle probably works the best
[15:06:05] <skunkworks> right
[15:06:43] <SWPadnos> using the servo thread is kind of an irrelevant constraint
[15:06:53] <cradek> http://www.asofterworld.com/
[15:06:56] <SWPadnos> since servo hardware has watchdogs (in general)
[15:07:16] <skunkworks> SWPadnos: right - I read your reply
[15:07:27] <SWPadnos> I'm famous!
[15:08:06] <skunkworks> ;)
[15:17:17] <klick0> I have the universal stepper controller from pico systems, do i really need low latency? I mentioned last night a new computer i was thinking of using has 87000ns latency on the test utility. Does that matter with the board I have?
[15:18:39] <klick0> I think i'm gonna goto the store with the live emc cd and just try it out on multiple computers, do the latency test
[15:20:55] <skunkworks> the jitter is almost 10% of the servo thread. I don't know how much that will effect things.
[15:22:50] <skunkworks> you may have trouble finding new computers with printer ports.
[15:23:19] <skunkworks> although pci printer ports are cheap
[15:26:10] <psha> skunkworks: most of recent computers have LPT port but have 26-pins connector on MB rather then DB-25 port
[15:26:46] <skunkworks> nice - I was going to recomend the current intel atom board...
[15:27:02] <skunkworks> that has the printer port header on the motherboard
[15:28:49] <psha> D510MO rocks! :)
[15:29:30] <klick0> yea, this computer with 87000ns jitter doesn't have a parallel port, i ordered one from newegg
[15:30:00] <klick0> yea, i have some intel atom boards, i'm kinda using em though, i might test out on one though
[15:31:20] <psha> i think D510MO has to be documented somwhere as good choice
[15:33:42] <klick0> http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0348723 I wonder if that would work hmmm
[15:34:20] <psha> it has ION graphics
[15:34:27] <klick0> is that bad?
[15:34:35] <psha> it's worse then intel onboard one
[15:41:55] <Tired_2> worse than intel?
[15:42:34] <Tired_2> with repsect to jitter?
[15:43:08] <psha> yes
[15:43:13] <psha> (i think)
[15:43:15] <psha> :)
[15:43:29] <Tired_2> if I have 17,000 or so, is it worth trying to find a different computer?
[15:43:40] <Tired_2> one computer I have is at 26,000, one at 17,000
[15:44:05] <cradek> both of those are fine
[15:44:30] <psha> if you had 100 or 50 - it worht trying
[15:44:36] <psha> for 20us - no
[15:45:50] <Tired_2> cool.
[15:46:01] <Tired_2> I have a seimens industrial pc I want to try
[15:46:09] <Tired_2> but it has no LPT
[15:48:49] <klick0> my main cnc puter, which is currently down, had a jitter of 8000, it's an amd athlon xp 2600 (about 2ghz)
[15:49:10] <klick0> my quad core Q6600 ? (i think) has a jitter of 87000ns
[15:49:12] <klick0> pretty bad
[15:49:18] <klick0> maybe i'll get this http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0352636
[15:49:24] <psha> it's not related to CPU
[15:49:27] <klick0> it's amd like mine, but 2.7ghz
[15:49:57] <psha> more then to bios/pm stuff/video card and other pereferial
[15:50:02] <klick0> yea
[15:50:39] <psha> for example it's common that disabling hw opengl reduces latency greatly
[15:50:42] <klick0> What the record for smallest jitter time? :) eheh
[15:50:59] <Tired_2> hence not adding the nvidia drivers?
[15:51:31] <Tired_2> Surely there is some realtime hardware that has very little jitter
[15:52:48] <psha> nvidia cards may cause issues since their drivers are either reverse engeneired or binary blobs which were not written with respect to rt
[15:55:39] <Tired_2> ah
[16:00:11] <TekniQue> I get 48,000 jitter on my machine
[16:00:17] <TekniQue> no matter what I do
[16:00:35] <TekniQue> whether it's idle or running fullscreen flash video
[16:01:03] <TekniQue> using an old dell optiplex, 3.4GHz Pentium 4
[16:01:20] <TekniQue> with ubuntu 10.4
[16:01:38] <TekniQue> and on board Intel graphics
[16:01:58] <SWPadnos> klick0, I think I might have the record. after disabling a lot of stuff (ext3 journaling, networking, graphics), I had a machine with 200ns average and about 2000 ns max latency
[16:02:04] <TekniQue> it's a dedicated machine for my CNC
[16:02:08] <skunkworks> you could try an plugin video card...
[16:02:31] <TekniQue> it's a low profile case :(
[16:02:47] <klick0> holy crap, yea thats pretty low
[16:02:48] <TekniQue> I don't have any card that fits in it
[16:02:56] <Connor> I'm trying to figure out why my machine isn't milling proper sizes now.. Holes look oblong etc... I'm trying out CamBAM right now.. and have switched from a 1/4 to a 1/8 bit.. I also switched from 1/2 stepping to 1/8 stepping and increase the power of my steppers.. however, They're not dropping steps as far as I can tell..
[16:03:12] <TekniQue> but the max stepping speed is well above what I need
[16:03:20] <TekniQue> so it's not an issue as far as I can tell
[16:18:33] <Tired_2> TekniQue, I assume your lead screw pitch is configured right?
[16:18:38] <Tired_2> and pulley ratios, etc...
[16:27:49] <TekniQue> Tired_2: yes
[16:27:53] <TekniQue> I have the machine working
[16:30:59] <Tired_2> oh
[16:31:33] <Tired_2> (I'm new, I have no better ideas on that one)
[16:31:47] <Tired_2> assuming CamBAM is not generating wacky code
[16:39:56] <MarkusBec_> MarkusBec_ is now known as MarkusBec
[16:59:32] <klick0> well the same computer that had 8000ns latency upgraded to 10.04 now has 82000ns latency, turning off visual features on the desktop reduced it to 60000ns, guess i need to go through and turn off what i can
[16:59:51] <psha> apt-get install libgl1-mesa-swx11
[17:00:19] <klick0> thanks, will try that next
[17:00:37] <Tired_2> there shoudl be a guide on what to turn off
[17:00:45] <Tired_2> or, does the live cd install already have some optimizations?
[17:00:52] <Tired_2> EMC2 live cd that is
[17:01:23] <klick0> well the live cd didn't work for some reason, so i had to install ubuntu 10.04 standard cd, then run the emc2 lucid install script, which worked, but now i have that latency
[17:01:32] <psha> guide is on wiki in 'troubleshooting' :)
[17:01:39] <klick0> thanks
[17:01:53] <Tired_2> thanks psha
[17:22:20] <klick0> wohoo, after donig libgl1-mesa-swx11 my max jitter went up to 90000ns, but I rebooted, forced Xwindows into using the framebuffer, back down to 7773 max jitter, i moved a bunch of stuff around and it seems pretty solid
[17:22:34] <klick0> i bet that quad core I have would do better if i dropped it to framebuffer or vesa x11
[17:24:40] <psha> what's video card?
[17:27:08] <klick0> radeon
[17:27:20] <klick0> it was using the radeon driver when i got the bad jitter values
[17:28:55] <motioncontrol> good evening . have a message on emc2 : was waiting for index on motion id -21...., but reached id -21...., how write in code part it ?
[18:53:55] <hatman> Hi all
[19:08:37] <juri_> bye not-all.
[19:23:33] <psha> archivist: is 'hi all' appropriate string for bot? :)
[19:25:37] <motioncontrol> good evening . have a message on emc2 : was waiting for index on motion id -21...., but reached id -21...., how write in code part it ?
[19:26:11] <psha> is it exact message?
[19:26:36] <motioncontrol> yes only -21.. not rebember
[19:27:11] <motioncontrol> the problem is only motion.index-enable
[19:27:49] <motioncontrol> but don,t know the message how is set
[19:28:40] <psha> it seem that your english is equally bad to mine so to understand each other we have to be more verbose :)
[19:28:52] <psha> as i understand you have some error message?
[19:29:08] <motioncontrol> yes, i have a error message
[19:29:52] <motioncontrol> the message is : was waiting for index on motion id -21563746 , but reached id -235467
[19:30:01] <psha> ah, that's better :)
[19:30:06] <psha> is during some mdi command?
[19:30:24] <motioncontrol> yes in mdi when have g33.1 command
[19:30:47] <motioncontrol> i thing is on hm2 code ?
[19:31:06] <psha> dunno :)
[19:31:22] <psha> i seem to out of my knowlege
[19:31:30] <motioncontrol> i have search this text in emc/src but don't have see it
[20:22:36] <klick0> Well, since i've now upgraded to ubuntu 10.04, my cnc is not working, hal_ppmc won't load, states there is no controller board, however univstepdiags shows there is one... i have a universal stepper controller from pico systems, not sure what's different in 10.04 that's not letting it load up
[20:29:05] <dude123> hi klick0 ... I am assuming your .INI file has an entry for "hal_ppmc, however if you look at the sample PPMC configs in version 2.4.6 you'll notice that the HAL section names the files differently
[20:29:48] <alex_joni> klick0: try to upgrade to the latest emc2 version
[20:30:00] <alex_joni> there was a parport issue for emc2 older than 2.4.6
[20:30:16] <alex_joni> (for PCs which didn't report ports as EPP capable)
[20:34:53] <klick0> i am on 2.4.6
[20:35:21] <klick0> dude123: i tried the new sample configs as well, it has the same error
[20:38:05] <klick0> http://pastebin.com/tscb3njD
[20:38:19] <klick0> there's my error
[20:38:49] <klick0> PPMC says check parallel port connection, but the univstepdiags program found the controller just moments beofre
[20:41:03] <klick0> i also put the install parport_pc /bin/true in the /etc/modprobe.d/emc2 file, to not load the parallel port pc driver, that did nothing, I also added the loadrt probe_parport before the hal_ppmc line (as it kinda was like the issue i read) which also did nothing
[20:43:22] <dude123> seem like its related to the NML file changes but I'm not sure ...
[20:43:35] <dude123> see the getting started manual chapter 5
[20:56:40] <klick0> the nml changes didn't do anything
[20:56:48] <klick0> the error is related to hal_ppmc
[20:59:52] <dude123> I use a Mesa 5i20 and had a similar problem with my old config files (the libnml/buffer error) , all I had to do was comment out the NML statement in my INI file and things worked for me
[21:00:54] <andypugh> That was clearly stated as necessary in the upgrade notes.
[21:01:18] <andypugh> And of course, everybody _always_ reads the upgrade notes before upgrading, right?
[21:01:45] <dude123> i must have missed them somehow ;)
[21:02:59] <andypugh> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?UPDATING
[21:03:02] <andypugh> Section 1.1
[21:04:09] <andypugh> (Yeah, it caught me too, and I was put on the right track here)
[21:08:03] <klick0> I commented the NML_FILE line out, didn't change anything
[21:11:27] <andypugh> I joined late. What's the exact error message?
[21:12:16] <klick0> http://pastebin.com/tscb3njD
[21:12:33] <klick0> insmod: error inserting '/usr/realtime-2.6.32-122-rtai/modules/emc2/hal_ppmc.ko': -1 Operation not permitted
[21:12:42] <klick0> because:
[21:12:42] <klick0> #
[21:12:43] <klick0> [ 284.756862] PPMC: Check Parallel Port connection.
[21:12:43] <klick0> #
[21:12:43] <klick0> [ 284.756900] PPMC: ERROR: no boards found on bus 0, port 0378
[21:12:43] <klick0> #
[21:12:44] <klick0> [ 284.756904] PPMC: shutting down
[21:17:56] <JT-Shop> YEA! my clean bottom boring subroutine works :)
[21:19:35] <andypugh> klick0: D510MO?
[21:23:10] <andypugh> JT-Shop: I keep meaning to write a hole-digging boring routine, one that uses the cutter approach angle to progressively bore deeper and to arbitrary diameter.
[21:23:45] <andypugh> klick0: I think the root of your problem might be non-detection of the p-port card EPP mode.
[21:23:46] <JT-Shop> what this one does is clean out the bottom of a hole (on the lathe) after you drill it
[21:24:05] <JT-Shop> and make it a square bottom hole
[21:24:29] <andypugh> Aye, that was what I assumed you mean. I do that with my facing routine :-)
[21:25:19] <JT-Shop> this one cuts following the taper using trig to figure out where to cut
[21:26:11] <andypugh> That's clever, and must save several minutes a year :-)
[21:26:59] <JT-Shop> LOL saves me time programming more than anything
[21:27:28] <JT-Shop> I just enter a few things and let it rip
[21:30:13] <dude123> klick0: I was unable to load the supplied ppmc config and I have a builtin parallel port, can't shutdown now to check if the BIOS is set to EPP on my machine
[21:31:23] <klick0> well you can't load ppmc unless you have a pico systems board, like the universal stepper controller, do you?
[21:31:45] <klick0> This computer has been my cnc computer using the ppmc for 2 years, i just upgraded to 10.04
[21:31:59] <klick0> the parallel port mode is ECP+EPP
[21:32:28] <skunkworks> klick0: did you update the install to the latest emc2?
[21:32:38] <andypugh> Which version of EMC2 are you using/
[21:34:21] <andypugh> Your problem might be related to this bugfix (included in the 2.4.6 release): http://git.linuxcnc.org/gitweb?p=emc2.git;a=commit;h=c9c7ebfa472dcd1de02ccb6470340a97f15a588e
[21:38:09] <klick0> 2.4.6
[21:38:14] <klick0> fresh 10.04 install
[21:38:17] <klick0> updated everything
[21:38:17] <andypugh> Darn!
[21:39:04] <klick0> i read about that, but i couldn't specify port_hi
[21:43:29] <andypugh> There might be nuggets of information here: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.distributions.emc.user/23267
[21:43:39] <andypugh> But it's quite a lot to read.
[21:44:15] <klick0> yea i read that whole thing
[21:44:22] <andypugh> Does /proc/ioports show the registers at 0x378 _and_ 0x778?
[21:44:26] <klick0> yep
[21:44:42] <andypugh> Probably something different then, sorry
[21:45:00] <andypugh> Are you on the mailing list? Jon might be able to help.
[21:45:26] <klick0> i emailed jon already, about an hour ago, hope to hear something back by tommroow
[21:45:27] <klick0> rtapi_print_msg(RTAPI_MSG_INFO, "PPMC: installing driver\n");
[21:45:32] <klick0> how do i turn those print message on?
[21:45:58] <andypugh> rtapi_set_msg_level
[21:46:10] <klick0> where, kernel parameter?
[21:46:34] <SWPadnos> have you tried running pcisetup?
[21:46:50] <SWPadnos> (shouldn't matter, just wondering)
[21:47:07] <klick0> root@emc:~/tmp# ./pcisetup 378
[21:47:07] <klick0> io addr = 378
[21:47:08] <klick0> yep
[21:47:10] <andypugh> I am sure there is a way to do it neatly, but I have only ever managed it by putting extra lines around the code I want to debug and recompiling.
[21:47:43] <andypugh> I am sure there has to be an easier way
[21:49:22] <klick0> well i'm not recompiling anything
[21:50:01] <andypugh> No, I am hoping someone clever like SWPadnos knows the way to set the RTAPI debug level,
[21:50:15] <SWPadnos> echo something to /proc/rtapi/debug?
[21:50:19] <SWPadnos> (or something like that)
[21:50:40] <SWPadnos> like echo 4 > /proc/rtapi/<however it's spelled)
[21:50:45] <SWPadnos> s/)/>/
[21:50:52] <SWPadnos> bbl
[21:50:55] <klick0> yea, not sure how i do that during the loading
[21:51:06] <klick0> as it gets loaded and unloaded
[21:51:35] <andypugh> See what happens if you do it before starting emc2?
[21:51:46] <klick0> it's not there
[21:53:01] <klick0> yea, if i load a simulated one, parport just doing step generation, then /proc/rtapi shows up, and disappears after it unloads
[21:53:23] <klick0> so in the .hal config file, before the loadrt hal_ppmc line, is there a way to excute a command?
[21:54:10] <klick0> info would be value 3
[21:54:22] <klick0> 5 is all
[21:55:52] <andypugh> I am experimenting
[21:56:32] <klick0> loadusr looks like it runs a program
[21:57:54] <andypugh> I don't think that is the answer
[21:58:00] <klick0> hehe, well i'm gonna try
[21:58:06] <andypugh> I think this works:
[21:58:29] <andypugh> cd to the config directory
[21:58:37] <andypugh> halrun
[21:58:58] <andypugh> then in a separate window do the echo 4 > p
[21:59:22] <andypugh> (etc)
[21:59:43] <andypugh> Then in the halcmd window source univstep.hal
[22:05:30] <klick0> loadusr worked, i wrote a script to echo 3 into /proc/rtapi/debug
[22:06:06] <klick0> the first time i run emc, it just says: 57.562409] PPMC: Check Parallel Port connection.
[22:06:07] <klick0> [ 57.562413] PPMC: shutting down
[22:06:16] <klick0> it says check paralle port connection many times
[22:06:23] <andypugh> 4 is a better number
[22:06:58] <andypugh> That catches the EMC_DBG level messages that the driver authors put in for themselves
[22:07:18] <klick0> this is when univstepdiag says everythign is ok
[22:07:22] <klick0> ppmc uses INFO
[22:07:26] <klick0> i looked at the source
[22:07:28] <klick0> 4 did nothing
[22:07:57] <klick0> well, it did something, but 3 seemed to give more data, i dunno
[22:08:08] <klick0> well, the first run doesn't show much, it's only the second run, i could re-try
[22:08:31] <klick0> anyway, second time it says this: [ 109.258022] PARPORT: linux parport parport0 does not support mode 4.
[22:08:31] <klick0> [ 109.258023] PARPORT: continuing anyway.
[22:08:31] <klick0> [ 109.258027] PARPORT: Using Linux parport parport0 at ioaddr=0x378:0x778
[22:10:14] <klick0> I have no idea what's going on, i should try a different computer i guess
[22:20:43] <motioncontrol> good evening . have a message on emc2 : was waiting for index on motion id -21...., but reached id -21...., how write in code part it ?
[22:36:40] <JT-Shop> motioncontrol: is that some kind of error message?
[22:36:49] <andypugh> motioncontrol: Can you rephrase the question, and give us a little more background?
[22:38:00] <andypugh> Oops. Hope I didn't miss a reply?
[22:38:38] <psha> no
[22:39:04] <motioncontrol> yes, in mdi mode when start g33.1 command have error: good evening . have a message on emc2 : was waiting for index on motion id -2157238, but reached id -2156748 how write in code part it ?
[22:39:09] <JT-Shop> andypugh: when you use your facing routine to clean the bottom of a drilled hole to you run it backwards for the boring bar?
[22:39:34] <motioncontrol> excuse for repeat the message
[22:42:27] <motioncontrol> andypugh, when start g33.1 have the rror message : was waiting for index on motion id-2157238 , but reached id-2146748 . i have search this text in src the emc , but nt have see it.how is set this error ?
[22:43:13] <JT-Shop> might be not getting the index from the spindle
[22:43:47] <motioncontrol> i thing the problem is on motion-spindle-index-enable
[22:45:15] <motioncontrol> my whestion is this error how is set in code the emc2 : type for example interpreter-convert.c?
[22:46:13] <Connor> Hey Guys, question about ball screws and such. The lock nut used to keep the ball screw in place. If I tighten it up so that the screw can't move back and forth.. it puts so much friction against the face of the rubber seal (and I'm assuming pulling the shoulder into the bearing on the other side) that it causes the screw to be extremely hard to turn.. what am I missing?
[22:46:58] <andypugh> JT-Shop: It just runs from start point to end-point, so EMC2 handles the movment direciton.
[22:47:39] <Connor> Further more.. I just had to pull my Z axis off, and relub my screw because it started binding because MDF must have gotten into it or something...
[22:53:15] <Connor> anyone?
[22:55:06] <JT-Shop> got a photo of it?
[22:55:35] <Connor> let me see if one of my existing photos is sharp enough..
[22:56:25] <Connor> http://www.ivdc.com/cnc/cnc1.jpg
[22:56:32] <Connor> best I have ATM..
[22:56:58] <Connor> You can see the coupler and the nut on the X axis, then the mounting block.
[22:57:33] <Connor> I don't have my good camera ATM, or I could take better pictures..
[22:58:49] <JT-Shop> kinda hard to see... are you talking about the bearings that take the thrust from the screw?
[22:58:57] <andypugh> Is there a design drawing somewhere?
[22:59:05] <andypugh> What are the thrust bearings?
[22:59:13] <Connor> one sec.
[22:59:19] <Connor> getting picture from one from ebay
[23:00:08] <andypugh> motioncontrol: I can't find that error message anywhere in the EMC2 source.
[23:00:43] <andypugh> Ah, case-sensitivity
[23:01:00] <Connor> http://cgi.ebay.com/1antibacklash-ballscrew-RM1605-1020mm-BK-BF12-coupler-/250621175796?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a5a2fa7f4
[23:01:13] <andypugh> motioncontrol: tp.c line 771
[23:01:26] <Connor> that's the setup..
[23:01:30] <motioncontrol> andypugh, ok i control wait
[23:02:13] <motioncontrol> andypugh, how is tp.c ?
[23:02:58] <andypugh> src/emc/kinematics/tp.c
[23:03:33] <Connor> I'm not to sure their are thrust bearings.. Looked like normal ball bearings to me.
[23:03:45] <motioncontrol> andypugh, more thenks i study it
[23:04:02] <andypugh> Connor: Angular contact bearings look very similar.
[23:04:16] <andypugh> Perhaps you do not have them opposed?
[23:04:45] <Connor> Ooh... I have had the bearings out.. how can you tell ?
[23:05:05] <andypugh> I would expect two angular contacts on the threaded end of the shaft, and a semi-floating deep-groove-ball on the the other end.
[23:05:28] <andypugh> What are the bearing numbers?
[23:05:36] <Connor> Yea correct..
[23:05:52] <Connor> Not sure.. I can see about removing it.. but, it's a chore.
[23:06:04] <andypugh> You might be missing a collar between them, or similar.
[23:06:19] <Connor> It goes like this..
[23:07:07] <andypugh> http://www.skf.com/portal/skf/home/products?maincatalogue=1&lang=en&newlink=9_4_30
[23:07:15] <Connor> coupler, locknut, coller, (seal over coller) bearing bearing, coller (seal over coller) shoulder of screw.
[23:07:49] <andypugh> OK, sounds reasonable
[23:07:54] <Connor> let me see if I can remove the screw assemlby.. brb
[23:09:51] <Valen> new toys for us http://www.vapourforge.com/temp/spindle/
[23:17:52] <andypugh> spun it up yet?
[23:18:55] <gezar> Sorry I have not been around much the past few years, my passion for machining and emc has not let up, however school has occupied all of my time.
[23:20:22] <Connor> okay, have it removed.. checking the bearings..
[23:20:22] <gezar> I have read some of most recent list mails looks fantastic, anyway, I hope everyone has a fantastic end of the year.
[23:21:18] <andypugh> gezar: A whole lot has changed in the last few years.
[23:21:40] <gezar> yeah I know, I just dont have any time I wish I did
[23:22:45] <andypugh> Be careful what you wish for.
[23:22:48] <Connor> bearings removed.. what am I looking for?
[23:22:55] <andypugh> Bearing numbers?
[23:23:37] <Connor> 700/AC HRB CHINA
[23:23:40] <Valen> nah just got it yesterday
[23:23:40] <gezar> andy : hahaha, yeah, do you know what repository system emc is using these days?
[23:23:41] <elmo40> Valen: what is that last image?
[23:23:44] <andypugh> You might well see that the inner race has more visible land on one side than the other
[23:23:52] <Valen> they included that in the package elmo40
[23:23:54] <Valen> nfi why
[23:23:57] <andypugh> gezar: git
[23:24:03] <andypugh> git.linuxcnc.org
[23:24:05] <elmo40> Valen: interesting necklace ;)
[23:24:12] <Valen> bracelet sized
[23:24:13] <gezar> andy : oh sweet, I may have time this semester to dig back into the code.
[23:24:15] <elmo40> oh
[23:24:20] <elmo40> plastic?
[23:24:41] <Valen> polished stone
[23:24:47] <elmo40> nice spidle, though
[23:24:54] <elmo40> hrmm, maybe marble bearings? :P
[23:24:55] <Valen> bigger than we thaught
[23:25:04] <Valen> gives us hope for cutting steel with it
[23:25:11] <elmo40> how much?
[23:25:19] <Valen> ~$500 or so all up
[23:25:54] <gezar> Andy : thank you I have to run. have a great one
[23:26:10] <elmo40> not bad. specs? Hp, rpm range, tool holder.
[23:26:23] <elmo40> Valen: can you rigid tap with it?
[23:26:33] <Valen> somebody here might know this, I'm after a teensy pump to convert my old mower to fuel injection, without a stupid price tag attached
[23:26:43] <Valen> elmo40: no, minimum reccomended speed is 6000RPM
[23:26:54] <Valen> but at 24,000 RPM just mill the damn thread ;-P
[23:27:32] <elmo40> lol
[23:29:32] <elmo40> Valen: star trek fan? http://www.vapourforge.com/temp/capri-dash%20MK1.png
[23:29:43] <Valen> heh, something like that
[23:29:53] <Valen> mockup of a LED dash for a friends electric car
[23:29:57] <andypugh> Valen: Aquarium pump?
[23:30:10] <Valen> need ~30PSI for the injector to work
[23:30:37] <Valen> little diaphragm pump might well work though
[23:30:39] <andypugh> Best bet is possibly ebay for a motorcycle one.
[23:30:55] <Valen> they are all probably going to be too big and power hungry I'd think
[23:31:05] <andypugh> Connor: AC sounds like Angular contact
[23:31:12] <elmo40> where do you plan to get the 12V to power it?
[23:31:19] <Valen> http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.ACCT103531/it.A/id.146/.f is what I was looking at
[23:31:29] <Valen> elmo40: SLA battery
[23:31:35] <andypugh> Can you see any difference between the sides?
[23:31:49] <Connor> I had them the in the same direction. Just flipped them so they're face to face.. (lip on the inside)
[23:32:21] <andypugh> That should help.
[23:32:27] <elmo40> Valen: you making a BattleBot out of a lawnmower? ;)
[23:32:39] <Connor> But, the jam nut still rubs up against the seal...
[23:32:44] <Valen> nah, just got pissed off at carburettors
[23:32:54] <andypugh> Sounds like the collar is too short
[23:33:03] <Valen> so EFI conversion for 1980s 2 stroke is looking good lol
[23:33:09] <Connor> Yea. I think it is.. I don't really have a way to make one either...
[23:34:00] <andypugh> Can you re-purpose a washer to space it away from the bearing?
[23:34:31] <Connor> in between the bearings? or the coller?
[23:34:44] <andypugh> Between the bearing and the collar.
[23:35:08] <andypugh> Between the bearings would be counter-productive.
[23:35:51] <andypugh> Or, can the seal fit the other way round?
[23:36:13] <andypugh> (Is the seal all the way into the housing?
[23:36:30] <ries_> ries_ is now known as ries
[23:38:46] <elmo40> Valen: I want to put a carb in my 2005 Sierra!
[23:38:54] <Valen> lol why
[23:38:56] <elmo40> pissed off at injection&electronics
[23:39:08] <elmo40> not like it is that much more efficient
[23:39:09] <Valen> put an aftermarket ECU in
[23:39:14] <elmo40> meh
[23:39:27] <elmo40> screw it. give me a 4-barrel carb any day
[23:39:49] <Valen> if you have a flow bench and lots of time on your hands I spose
[23:40:02] <Valen> I already have an oscilloscope and a multimeter
[23:41:10] <andypugh> Aftermarket ECU and a laptop sounds like the way to go to me.
[23:41:14] <elmo40> what would I need a flow bench for? not like I will put a carb/cylinder.
[23:41:20] <andypugh> But then I might be biased.
[23:41:38] <Valen> because when shit isn't working right with it, your screwed lol
[23:41:56] <elmo40> a little less time consuming then injectors.
[23:42:02] <Valen> sif
[23:42:45] <andypugh> The adjustments available with carbs are rather coarse, and you have to dismantle the engine to make them.
[23:42:51] <elmo40> besides, I can make pretty much EVERY component of that system. What will you do when there are no more ECU's for your specific setup? I guess you could use an eeprom... now you need to program it.
[23:42:55] <Valen> aftermarket ECU + laptop tells you everything thats happening
[23:43:01] <andypugh> With injection you can tune as you drive alone.
[23:43:09] <Valen> elmo40: its called a megasquirt
[23:43:14] <Valen> open source MCU
[23:46:40] <DaViruz> screw this ecu and carb business, i want a coal fueled steam powered car
[23:46:44] <DaViruz> progress is so stupid
[23:46:57] <Valen> that had better be gassified coal with a water spray boiler
[23:49:56] <DaViruz> the idea was to poke fun at thinking fuel injection is some kind of magic
[23:50:27] <Valen> closed source ECU's EFI systems are basically magic
[23:50:48] <Valen> they don't tell you anything unless you have the $15000 factory readout tool
[23:54:44] <andypugh> $400, but you need the access codes.
[23:55:33] <DaViruz> which andypugh happily will supply us with?
[23:55:42] <DaViruz> (worth a try)
[23:56:19] <andypugh> FFFFFFFF for the development modules I work with. They don't let us have the production codes.
[23:56:39] <elmo40> DaViruz: why not step it up a little and use the Babington nozzle? http://www.aipengineering.com/double_0135_hole_bab_thumbnail.jpg
[23:57:33] <Connor> No dice.. no matter were I put a washer.. it binds.. I need longer coller.