#emc | Logs for 2010-12-06

[00:00:12] <JT-Hardinge> open up Show HAL Configuration to see what it is connected to then delete what is not needed
[00:00:33] <atmega> it's out in my cold garage.
[00:00:46] <JT-Hardinge> build a fire, that is what I did :)
[00:02:32] <JT-Hardinge> * JT-Hardinge heads inside to start some Jambalaya
[00:03:45] <theorb> theorb is now known as theorbtwo
[00:15:37] <TekniQue> another Q
[00:15:58] <TekniQue> I want to drill circuit boards
[00:16:06] <TekniQue> that I lay out in Eagle
[00:17:02] <atmega> me too
[00:17:20] <TekniQue> How do I convert the output from Eagle to a format useful in emc?
[00:18:02] <atmega> there is a eagle user thing to make isolation cut code from eagle
[00:18:22] <TekniQue> I'm more interested in just drilling the holes
[00:18:32] <atmega> it does that also
[00:18:34] <TekniQue> I have a pretty good setup for quick etching and exposing
[00:20:40] <TekniQue> ah here we go
[00:20:42] <TekniQue> http://eng-serve.com/cnc/excellon_gcode.html
[00:21:42] <jthornton> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?PCB_Milling_And_Drilling_With_Cheap_And_Simple_Height-Probing
[01:21:56] <Valen> I was thinking of doing etch resist with a uv laser in mah mill ;->
[01:23:03] <Jymmm> why?
[01:23:38] <Valen> dont like the edge on routered boards
[01:23:58] <Valen> not conducive to surface mount of leadless packages
[01:24:22] <Valen> I wonder what resolution you would need to do a "projector" style system
[01:24:36] <Valen> IE old LCD + UV light source + some optics
[01:27:53] <Jymmm> lolts of shadows usig an lcd as overhead projector i'd think
[01:29:37] <Valen> been done before to project TV stuff
[01:30:13] <Jymmm> but if your bitcin about routed, youll be biotchin bout projected too
[01:30:24] <Valen> etched edges are ok
[01:30:39] <Valen> its the raised edge that routed seems to have as well as the feature size
[01:30:54] <Valen> I've made some ok ones with toner transfer but its a bit yaknow
[01:34:16] <Valen> lacks some awesome
[01:54:30] <DaViruz> i think scanning laser would be the ideal way
[01:54:47] <DaViruz> like fitting a UV laser in a laser printer and make it feed a pcb through it
[01:57:09] <DaViruz> if you're looking to do better than printing out a mask on overhead i doubt the resolution of any common lcd would even come close
[01:57:40] <DaViruz> oh, readling back a little more i see that laser was what started the discussion..
[02:27:15] <atmega> could you do anything interesting with a chinese 40 co2 laser?
[02:37:45] <elmo401> 40 Watts?
[02:40:08] <atmega> yeah, the W must have disppeared
[03:23:30] <atmega> they are seemingly dirt cheap on ebay
[03:26:52] <elmo401> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIiCSLHVUkA
[03:27:31] <elmo401> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8z_MRtJPMZo
[03:27:33] <elmo401> can do plenty
[03:27:52] <elmo401> remember, you can cut (practically) anything... depends on how much time you want to spend burning the hole ;)
[03:28:28] <Valen> DaViruz: you can you know focus the big LCD onto a smaller area
[03:28:59] <Valen> IE a 1080 LCD focused down onto a few square inches of board
[03:30:11] <elmo401> isn't that how they make the 35nM chips? take a large projection and focus it uber-tiny?
[03:37:01] <Valen> that kind of thing
[03:45:39] <DaViruz> well if you only need boards that small sure :)
[03:45:58] <DaViruz> i guess you could do a matrix of exposures but that seems messy
[03:54:11] <Valen> got CnC mill, everything looks like a matrix
[04:25:40] <davec_> davec_ is now known as Guest18166
[06:20:22] <SWPadnos_> SWPadnos_ is now known as SWPadnos
[14:11:18] <cradek_> cradek_ is now known as cradek
[14:31:50] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: you awake yet?
[14:37:41] <SWPadnos> sadly
[14:51:22] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: Can you think of anything that I could use as a pcb that I could create n the laser, even if disposal/ one time use in nature?
[14:51:35] <Jymmm> s/n/on/
[14:59:43] <awallin> create a pcb with a laser?
[15:03:57] <Jymmm> A conductive medium on a substraight that can be cut with a CO2 laser
[15:07:17] <atmega> can you cut any metal with a non-really-high-power co2 laser?
[15:08:43] <atmega> could you use LMM/CerMark/etc as resist?
[15:09:08] <Jymmm> too expensive and it's glass, not conductive
[15:10:01] <SWPadnos> I thought that CO2 lasers were particularly bad for "cutting" copper
[15:10:14] <atmega> I was thinking it would bond to the surface of the copper and it would still be conductive underneath
[15:10:16] <Jymmm> They cant cut any metals
[15:10:39] <Jymmm> at least m 35w can't
[15:10:41] <Jymmm> my
[15:10:44] <atmega> guess you couldn't solder to it
[15:11:22] <SWPadnos> so copper on a PCB will vaporize well enough for you?
[15:11:44] <Jymmm> wont do anthing to coper at all
[15:11:51] <pcw_home> Probably want a pulsed laser of some sort for thin copper removal
[15:11:58] <SWPadnos> so what are you asking related to PCBs on a laser?
[15:12:33] <SWPadnos> do you want to solder components to a PCB by melting the solder with the laser? :)
[15:12:40] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: pcb like, not actual coper cld bard
[15:12:48] <SWPadnos> oh
[15:14:26] <Jymmm> I know there are thick-film materials that are cut using a laser, but are primarily resistive in nature, I'm asking if there are any that you know of that are more conductive than resistaive.
[15:15:04] <SWPadnos> I don't know much of anything about the field, so no, I don't know of any
[15:15:07] <Jymmm> were talking cheap disposable things - resistor, led, vr, etc
[15:15:47] <pcw_home> Thin film metal resistive elements are laser trimmed as well
[15:15:51] <Jymmm> ok. I found some material but still in the lab stange for flex pcb that can be created on demand.
[15:15:52] <SWPadnos> I know there are some resonators and other components that are laser-trimmed
[15:16:37] <pcw_home> Tunning forks with gold trimmed
[15:17:08] <pcw_home> always pulsed lasers AFAIK
[15:18:23] <pcw_home> so the peak energy is high enough to ablate the metal without a lot of average power
[15:18:33] <JT-Hardinge> * JT-Hardinge has always wondered how you keep SMT parts still while you solder them?
[15:18:49] <Jymmm> duct tape
[15:18:55] <pcw_home> surface tension
[15:19:01] <SWPadnos> JT-Hardinge, when I do them by hand, I use a tweezer or the solder
[15:19:10] <JT-Hardinge> ah ok
[15:19:16] <atmega> I use an xacto tip
[15:19:17] <SWPadnos> when done by machine, the solder paste is a little tacky, so they stick to it
[15:19:22] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: solder or paste?
[15:19:34] <JT-Hardinge> cool
[15:19:36] <SWPadnos> I use rosin-core solder when soldering by hand
[15:19:49] <Jymmm> why not paste then bake them?
[15:20:05] <SWPadnos> with the paste, surface tension will pull the parts into the right spot (assuming that the land patterns are right)
[15:20:24] <JT-Hardinge> that makes sense
[15:20:31] <SWPadnos> Jymmm, because I would need to make a stencil first, if it's meant to be a time saver
[15:20:48] <Jymmm> I can make stencils =)
[15:20:49] <SWPadnos> and then modify an oven with a temperature controller
[15:21:09] <Jymmm> easy bake oven $20
[15:21:22] <Jymmm> toaster oven
[15:21:40] <SWPadnos> that's good for hobby stuff
[15:22:05] <pcw_home> JT-Hardinge: With solder plated cards (liberally fluxed) you can often tack one end of a resistor down with just the soldering iron tip
[15:22:25] <mozmck> I found a used small commercial reflow oven I got for $200 - cheaper than you can build up a toaster oven.
[15:22:45] <SWPadnos> that was a lucky find!
[15:22:48] <mozmck> You might check your local craigslist etc.
[15:23:23] <mozmck> I saw another that was a little larger for $600 I probably should have gotten.
[15:23:50] <pcw_home> Even a hot air gun from the back works pretty well (with experience)
[15:25:00] <pcw_home> we regularly do BGA protos with Granger hot air gun
[15:25:24] <JT-Hardinge> this is some interesting stuff :)
[15:26:01] <JT-Hardinge> * JT-Hardinge goes back out in the cold to put the backhoe back together :/
[15:26:27] <pcw_home> Brrr
[15:28:41] <pcw_home> A hot plate or old iron element with a new thermostat works pretty well
[15:28:54] <SWPadnos> some people use frying pans/griddles as well
[15:28:58] <SWPadnos> same trick as the hot air gun
[15:31:22] <pcw_home> I wouldn't do it for anything we sold but even .8 mm BGAs are lot easier than you would think
[16:35:59] <atmega> do you usually need to tweak SCALE settings for acme stuff?
[16:41:59] <tom3p> if you measure an err over your max travel, then tweak the scale.
[16:41:59] <tom3p> there's no usually to it, users dont often have a mix of acme and other threads so you'll find little info from user who have both experiences
[16:43:00] <atmega> I meant, are acme screws usually correct
[16:46:17] <atmega> 16000 just seems too perfect for reality but I don't think I have any way to measure total travel very accurately
[16:48:28] <tom3p> tolerance on pitch is up to the ASME or other governing body, in reality.... i googled this "While looking at Acme rods I see that the tolerances of most are .009/ft"
[16:50:14] <tom3p> there's different grades of ACME too, heres a reputable mfct's page w some related info http://www.nookindustries.com/NiceThreads/Index.cfm
[16:52:27] <tom3p> come to think of it, i did have acme on a chinese 3in1 ( lathe mill drill ) just like JMK's, and had to spend quite a while getting the real scale
[16:53:10] <tom3p> after that it's repeat on X (longest) with 1 2 or 3 123blocks ( 3, 6, or 9 inches )
[16:53:14] <atmega> an overall value that worked on any part of the screw?
[16:53:16] <kb18951452> Anyone here put a Plastruder on theor machine?
[16:53:21] <kb18951452> there
[16:53:32] <atmega> kb: not yet, but find me a mostly complete kit and I will :)
[16:53:44] <kb18951452> Funny you say that
[16:53:51] <kb18951452> I have been researching it
[16:53:58] <kb18951452> And there is a P{akistani fellow who has.
[16:54:08] <kb18951452> well, he is further ahead of me
[16:54:11] <kb18951452> on implementation.
[16:54:15] <tom3p> atmega i set a stop up and could slip the blocks in or out after the right value was found. it repeated well
[16:54:33] <atmega> I'll try that when I get a chance... some blocks would be good also
[16:54:59] <kb18951452> I'm poor, so i avoide expenditures. But, Looks like 3 components are needed. A Plastruder, Extra Controller, and a Temp Control circuit for the plastruder.
[16:55:23] <kb18951452> There is a 3d Printing (Plastrusion) channel on Freenode
[16:55:28] <kb18951452> #reprap
[16:55:43] <atmega> I'm not rich, but usually have less time than money
[16:55:46] <kb18951452> A complete Plastruder will run $160
[16:55:48] <kb18951452> USD
[16:56:10] <kb18951452> Controller (to run the stepper on the plastruder) is $13.
[16:56:23] <atmega> my earlier readings indicated that it would require something else to make it work with EMC?
[16:56:34] <kb18951452> I don't have a cost for the temp circuit,
[16:57:02] <kb18951452> I am wondering if i can find one of the groups who sell completed units, to start carrying "Completed" temp circuits.
[16:57:05] <kb18951452> Well,
[16:57:18] <kb18951452> so, skeinforge is the software developed (Free) to generate Gcode.
[16:57:29] <kb18951452> Problem is, it natively uses a E axis code for the Extruder,
[16:57:41] <kb18951452> But that would need to be A or whatever letter you using for that axis.
[16:57:47] <atmega> sed
[16:57:49] <kb18951452> But its nothing a Text find/replace can't fix.
[16:58:11] <kb18951452> The Pakistani fellow changed the source code for Skeinforge,
[16:58:26] <kb18951452> and made his own "version" that outputs "A" instead of "E".
[17:05:43] <jay_> jay_ is now known as fjay
[17:09:59] <kb18951452> sorry
[17:10:01] <kb18951452> He is turkish.
[17:10:18] <kb18951452> Problem is, last tim he was logged online was mid november....
[17:12:50] <awallin> kb18951452: I just tried temp-control with EMC2 a week ago: http://www.anderswallin.net/2010/11/temperature-pid-control/
[17:19:59] <cradek> awallin: how do you read the temperature and get that 1-40 Hz frequency?
[17:20:44] <awallin> we threw together a simple IC-555 based circuit where one resistor is a thermistor which is taped to the extruder head
[17:20:54] <awallin> the thermistor resistance sets the frequency
[17:21:08] <awallin> it's not an ideal arrangement but it seems to work
[17:21:48] <cradek> are thermistors fairly linear?
[17:21:59] <awallin> no. very much nonlinear
[17:22:54] <archivist_emc> but then a 555 may not be that linear too, may improve matters
[17:22:55] <cradek> I wonder if it would hold calibration if you could measure it and fit a curve
[17:23:08] <awallin> I would need to make a calibration-table to get degrees C as units, but I think we will just try 3D printing and tune values until it works well
[17:23:49] <cradek> will you find one setpoint that works, and pretty much leave it there? if so I agree calibration would just be academic
[17:24:18] <awallin> yes, that's the plan. I don't know if the setpoint needs adjusting when extrusion speed or feedrate changes
[17:25:03] <awallin> or when changing the type of plastic extruded (now we have a roll of blue plastic, ca 3-4mm in diam)
[17:25:14] <psha> awallin: great docs!
[17:25:50] <awallin> psha: someone really needs to complete the crapahalic or some HAL->graphviz tool or something !
[17:26:29] <kb18951452> wait
[17:26:36] <kb18951452> You dont need emc2 to control temp.
[17:26:42] <kb18951452> You can just use an arduinp
[17:26:45] <kb18951452> arduino,
[17:26:48] <kb18951452> seperate circuit.
[17:27:19] <awallin> sure, that works. but theres some elegance to putting all the logic/programming/inteligence into emc2 too
[17:27:37] <kb18951452> I'm not a EMC2 user.
[17:27:40] <psha> awallin: is pid temp control working fine?
[17:27:43] <kb18951452> Mach3 community guy myself.
[17:27:55] <kb18951452> So, my developmebnt is aimed towards Mach3
[17:27:59] <kb18951452> less elegant,
[17:28:03] <kb18951452> but more universal.
[17:28:20] <kb18951452> since an arduinocontrolled unit would kinda be plug and play
[17:28:25] <awallin> psha: I only did short testing last week. This week I hope to get the extruder stepper motor going and maybe try printing
[17:28:58] <kb18951452> there is such a strong vibrant 3d printer community
[17:29:49] <kb18951452> seems a shame not to tap into their community for some of the development
[17:30:01] <psha> awallin: pid.0.feedback is simply float?
[17:30:03] <kb18951452> especially since they are kinda incharge of the Skeinforge development
[17:30:17] <kb18951452> and for a beginner
[17:30:25] <kb18951452> arduino temp control seems easier
[17:30:50] <awallin> psha: yes, it's the square wave frequency in Hz
[17:32:32] <psha> higher temp - higher freq - higher feedback update rate?
[17:32:45] <psha> so errors will be fixed faster?
[17:33:42] <awallin> yeah, that's a "feature" of my circuit. it's not exactly conventional.. :)
[17:34:03] <kb18951452> "Extra" feature ALWAYS make things better.
[17:34:14] <awallin> The extruder head probably doesn't change temperature on millisecond or ten millisecond time scale anyway
[17:34:33] <L84Supper> at least not enough to matter :)
[17:39:10] <awallin> something like this would be nice to try; http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/12/3d-printed_snap-together_polygon.html
[17:39:55] <awallin> we haven't looked at a heated bed yet, but that seems important (?) for good print quality
[17:52:14] <kb18951452> it provides better
[17:52:20] <kb18951452> adhesions between layers
[17:52:21] <kb18951452> AND
[17:52:35] <kb18951452> Its allows the model to shrink "as a whole"
[17:52:44] <kb18951452> instead of skrinking "as you go"
[17:52:51] <kb18951452> so, the models are more "accurate"
[17:54:04] <awallin> how hot do you run the bed?
[18:03:39] <kb18951452> Eye Halv Know Eye Dia.
[18:05:58] <kb18951452> 100C is the temp for a hotbed.
[18:06:02] <kb18951452> If you interested
[18:06:09] <kb18951452> hop in #reprap
[18:06:19] <kb18951452> thats the official 3d plastrusion channel.
[18:19:15] <TekniQue> btw, G code question
[18:19:42] <TekniQue> what is a good method to convert 3D shapes to G-code?
[18:19:54] <TekniQue> for example, something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u31d6GAkLac&NR=1
[18:23:50] <awallin> TekniQue: opencamlib can do those kind of paths, or maybe pycam (slower?)
[18:24:16] <awallin> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DAvgLCj_RQ
[18:25:46] <TekniQue> neat
[18:26:30] <awallin> if youre good at c++ and geometry we need your help: http://code.google.com/p/opencamlib/
[18:31:19] <SWPadnos> ok, rule number 1 when making CNC videos is do not cover the actual milling operation with the titles !
[18:31:19] <tom3p> so this youtube video "Octree-based milling machine cutting simulation" is the marching cube ?
[18:32:36] <L84Supper> heh... sneaky way to keep the actual process secret
[18:33:02] <awallin> tom3p: the stock model is an octree. the surface triangles of the octree are generated with the marching cubes algorithm
[18:33:10] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: That #4. 1 is trn on the camera and remove the lens cover
[18:33:31] <tom3p> awallin, ok, i was watching the generation then, thanks
[18:33:41] <SWPadnos> no, that's in the "making videos" book. not the "making CNC videos" book :)
[18:34:34] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: what your ref to is how NOT to be a dumbass rule book
[18:34:57] <SWPadnos> it may be cross-referenced there, yes
[19:31:19] <JT-Hardinge> yea! my hard drives arrived now I can fire up one of the D510MO computers
[20:01:40] <Duckie> hi
[20:01:40] <the_wench> hello Duckie, you have a question?
[20:02:05] <Duckie> i was yesterday for my tool_racked.patch
[20:03:29] <Duckie> and say that there is Tomorrow (today now) a fix for the patch
[20:03:43] <micges> Duckie: not yet
[20:03:55] <micges> I'm eorking on it now
[20:04:19] <Duckie> ah
[20:04:25] <JT-Hardinge> patience grasshopper
[20:04:48] <Duckie> ok
[20:40:24] <micges> Duckie: try it: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?RackToolChanger
[20:54:33] <Duckie> i will try
[21:02:52] <Duckie> euh.. i read i must have the emc 2.4. (i got emc 2.3.0) how upgrade?
[21:07:23] <micges> Duckie: git checkout v2.4.6
[21:33:52] <kb18951452> Anyone here familiar with fiterforge?
[21:34:11] <kb18951452> Its a Standalone/Plugin for Photoshop(and other programs)
[21:34:34] <kb18951452> Been using Greyscale images to produce 3d textures, vut on myrouter.
[21:35:07] <kb18951452> The "Filters" allow one to produce randomized/unique textures of all kinds of themes
[21:35:25] <kb18951452> like if you needed some "Rusted metal" for some art project.
[21:35:29] <kb18951452> Whats really cool,
[21:35:42] <kb18951452> however, is that the program will also produce "Normal/Bump maps.
[21:38:30] <TekniQue> http://www.foo.is/gallery/misc/IMG_5648
[21:38:32] <TekniQue> http://www.foo.is/gallery/misc/IMG_5652
[21:38:36] <TekniQue> yeah!
[21:39:02] <TekniQue> Control bits: http://www.foo.is/gallery/misc/IMG_5642
[21:39:22] <TekniQue> chassis: http://www.foo.is/gallery/misc/IMG_5644
[21:39:43] <TekniQue> todo: make the mount for a better tool
[21:40:11] <TekniQue> and make something to attach the workpiece properly
[21:48:40] <TekniQue> by the way, the zoom in the preview in EMC is a bit dodgy
[21:49:30] <TekniQue> there seems to be a limit to how far I can zoom in
[21:49:46] <TekniQue> and when it gets near the limit, it zooms really slowly
[21:50:15] <TekniQue> and then after I close the program and re-open it
[21:50:25] <TekniQue> I can zoom in a lot closer
[21:51:00] <odiug> TekniQue: Nice machine! Your own design?
[21:51:42] <TekniQue> no, designed and built by some chinaman
[21:52:02] <TekniQue> it was a prototype that a friend of mine had made to teach CNC programming
[21:52:54] <odiug> Bottom part looks like a drawer. :-)
[21:55:33] <odiug> But the result looks good. Congrats!
[21:56:02] <Duckie> euh problem. can you give me the steps to update to 2.4.6 (it say always 'merge' this do...) (i got emc2.3.0)
[21:57:06] <Duckie> i have install the 'git program' and 'git clone command'
[21:59:23] <elmo401> TekniQue: not the prettiest soldering job in the world, eh? ;) http://www.foo.is/albums/misc/IMG_5637.sized.jpg
[22:00:26] <TekniQue> elmo401: there's nothing wrong with it
[22:00:54] <TekniQue> but without a solder mask it's hard to keep the solder from flowing onto the ground plane at ground pins
[22:00:55] <micges> Duckie: git checkout v2.4.6
[22:00:59] <micges> good night
[22:01:17] <TekniQue> because the board isn't pre tinned
[22:01:34] <TekniQue> I should pick up some immerse tin chemicals
[22:04:06] <odiug> You might try to treat the board with a flux spray before soldering.
[22:04:23] <TekniQue> I use a flux pen
[22:05:54] <odiug> There is something you can spray on the board which will dry (but stays a bit sticky): http://www.soselectronic.com/?str=371&artnum=33238
[22:09:01] <Duckie> i use this code and say merge this branch?
[22:09:15] <TekniQue> there's nothing wrong with the solder finish, but that spray looks handy
[22:09:24] <Duckie> git branch --track v2_3_branch origin/v2_3_branch
[22:09:25] <odiug> Another thing is, that pads which have a lot of contact to copper are hard to solder because they cool down quite fast.
[22:09:32] <Duckie> git checkout v2.4_branch
[22:09:42] <TekniQue> odiug: they have thermals
[22:09:42] <Duckie> git checkout v2.4.6
[22:09:59] <odiug> Ah, ok, that is what I wanted to hint to.
[22:10:18] <TekniQue> http://www.megauk.com/datasheets/4137_MSDS_600-020_600-021_Immerse_Tin.pdf
[22:10:22] <TekniQue> I still want to try this chemical
[22:10:36] <odiug> A good regulated soldering iron also helps.
[22:10:55] <Duckie> then it say: 'do you want to merge this branch'? help
[22:11:06] <TekniQue> I have that + hot air + stereo microscope for soldering under
[22:11:23] <odiug> Good
[22:15:14] <odiug> For a long time I refused to buy a more expensive soldering station. My latest had been a China station for 40€. I was amazed how much better a Weller for ~180€ was.
[22:17:15] <TekniQue> I once had a chinese soldering station
[22:17:41] <TekniQue> I found that the heat transfer to the tip was pretty bad
[22:17:58] <TekniQue> had to run it really hot to make anything but the smallest joints
[22:18:08] <odiug> For Tinning, I read that Bungard Sur-Tin should be good, but I have never tried it.
[22:22:04] <odiug> Seems to be a similar stuff. Also something I should try out once.
[23:54:32] <jthornton> WEE! I'm installing 10.04 on my D510MO system