#emc | Logs for 2010-11-06

[00:04:07] <theorb> theorb is now known as theorbtwo
[00:10:54] <mikegg> my smithy 622 came with an ER32
[00:11:05] <mikegg> I swapped it out for an R8
[00:11:48] <mikegg> they have a radial contact ball bearing in the top and a tapered roller in the bottom of the spindle
[00:11:57] <mikegg> weird huh?
[00:12:17] <pfred1> how so
[00:14:51] <mikegg> well you need to preload a tapered roller, and radial contacts are not as good at taking axial loads
[00:15:35] <pfred1> must be why the ball bearings were on the top
[00:15:38] <mikegg> I had to replace the lower tapered bearing with a different size and it wound up fitting in the upper bearing pocket
[00:16:02] <mikegg> so I stuck it up there so now i've got tapered roller top and bottom
[00:20:46] <pfred1> so what do you make with your smithy 622?
[00:23:34] <mikegg> a mess mostly :)
[00:24:49] <pfred1> every time I think I am home free with this CNC stuff another obstacle seems to present itself to me I swear
[00:27:19] <fenn> the smithy came with an er32 spindle?
[00:29:06] <pfred1> well er32 is a lot shorter than an R8 which could be handy on a smaller machine
[00:29:11] <mikegg_> yeah, it was an older model they had sitting around the warehouse
[00:29:45] <pfred1> what was the advantage you sought by changing to an R8?
[00:31:52] <pfred1> the collet setup I have for my R8 sucks
[00:32:08] <pfred1> I have to beat the danged things out with a lead wedge
[00:32:18] <mikegg_> yeah, mine are sticky too
[00:32:51] <mikegg_> If you take some emery cloth or like 600 grit sandpaper and sand down the cylindrical section....they will fit better
[00:33:10] <mikegg_> there is more tooling available for R8
[00:33:21] <pfred1> I guess
[00:33:23] <mikegg_> and ER32 is a PITA i think
[00:33:38] <mikegg_> unless you are putting them in like a CAT30
[00:33:42] <pfred1> I have found a bit of R8 here and there
[00:33:58] <pfred1> not that i find much of anything anymore
[00:34:07] <pfred1> it isn't like it used to be
[00:34:15] <mikegg_> I was thinking about going with a Tormach TS
[00:34:28] <pfred1> I could kick myself for not having stocked up more 20 years ago when I could have
[00:34:49] <pfred1> I just never saw it ending back then though
[00:34:50] <fenn> mikegg_: regarding tapered roller top and bottom, the spindle and/or spindle casing could heat up and expand, changing the preload on your bearings
[00:35:05] <mikegg_> i know. it does :)
[00:35:36] <mikegg_> the spindle gets warm...expands and reduces the preload
[00:35:45] <pfred1> I tore the spindle down once on my mill it is a PITA
[00:36:02] <mikegg_> eventually it reaches an equilibrium..
[00:36:08] <pfred1> thing was drier than dust though when I did it I knew I should do it more often
[00:36:25] <fenn> the "arc euro guide" recommends taking the whole spindle assembly on the x3 apart before ever running it, i'm wondering if it's worth it
[00:36:58] <pfred1> fenn ah what passes for grease with some folks doesn't with lots of others
[00:37:17] <fenn> yeah but will it damage the bearings or anything?
[00:37:28] <fenn> am i causing permanent damage by running it as delivered
[00:37:32] <mikegg_> i would tear it down
[00:37:48] <pfred1> let me put it to you this way if I knew then what i know now I'd have never turned my machine on without a complete tear down and rebuild
[00:37:56] <fenn> i need to get a "blind bearing puller" supposedly
[00:38:02] <mikegg_> we had a career machinist at my last job. he ordered some import tooling... lathe chucks etc
[00:38:15] <mikegg_> he tore down ALL of it before he used it
[00:38:26] <pfred1> the "grease" I saw looked more like sludge to me!
[00:38:35] <pfred1> it was bad stuff
[00:39:28] <pfred1> this black crusty crap
[00:39:43] <pfred1> seemed slightly abrasive too
[00:40:27] <pfred1> tear the whole machine apart completely degrease it clean then put in some real lubricants it'll be 100% better right off the bat
[00:41:08] <mikegg_> note to fenn: the spindle isn't too bad if you have a press. without one, things could get hairy
[00:42:35] <pfred1> my spindle wasn't pressed together as i can recall
[00:42:53] <Valen> anything you order from asia you need to do that at a minimum
[00:43:05] <Valen> we found a gibb screw that wasn't tapped all the way through
[00:43:20] <pfred1> yeah their idea of grease is like sludge
[00:43:42] <Valen> thats a packing grease usually
[00:43:45] <pfred1> oh and they're not to big on lock washers or tightening everything if you can't see it
[00:43:57] <Valen> heh
[00:44:14] <pfred1> like my X axis nut was all sorts of cock eyed
[00:44:22] <mikegg_> oh yeah cosmolene
[00:44:29] <mikegg_> what's that monkey shit called
[00:44:35] <pfred1> I know the difference between grease and cosmoline
[00:45:14] <Valen> yeah, do they?
[00:45:17] <pfred1> though with asian equipment the difference may be more academic than real
[00:46:15] <pfred1> the gib in my machine looked like it was finished by leaving it in the plant driveway for a length of time
[00:52:47] <mikegg_> has anyone ever tried resurfacing a vise with a surface grinder?
[01:00:43] <pfred1> mikegg_ I resurfaced mine with a shell mill
[01:01:30] <mikegg_> wait, which part? was it hardened?
[01:01:46] <pfred1> the movable jaw and the body
[01:01:54] <pfred1> and neither was hardened
[01:02:08] <mikegg_> ah ok, we are talking about two different parts
[01:02:31] <mikegg_> i want to take both jaws off and re surface the top and bottom of the base
[01:02:52] <pfred1> I pretty much had to rebuild the while vise the movable jaw had a crack in it and was stripped out
[01:02:53] <mikegg_> such that they are both the same height
[01:03:13] <pfred1> so I busted it entirely in half and used little whizzer discs to rethread it
[01:03:28] <pfred1> then welded it back together of course it wasn't on plane anymore so I had ot mill it flat again
[01:03:46] <pfred1> it worked very well
[01:04:40] <pfred1> when i bought the vise it was covered in grime and I didn't see the crack
[01:04:56] <pfred1> but hey $20 for a kurt clone it was fun I guess
[01:05:18] <ds2> $20 kurt clones?!? where?
[01:05:31] <pfred1> ds2 from the one armed man in Laurel
[01:05:39] <ds2> oh one of those :P
[01:05:55] <ds2> paid more then that for a set of parallels
[01:06:09] <pfred1> yeah I felt robbed because it was so messed up but I got it all back going now
[01:06:50] <pfred1> ds2 I was at an estate sale about two years ago and i could kick myself today for not buying everything
[01:07:16] <pfred1> ds2 but i was in the process of moving at the time and i couldn't take it all on then a whole basement jamb packed full of machine tooling and instrumentation
[01:07:32] <ds2> pfred1: rent a cargo container? :D
[01:07:36] <pfred1> ds2 every time I'd go up to the girl with a handful of stuff she'd say oh give me $3
[01:07:51] <pfred1> ds2 like a mickutoyo depth gauge
[01:07:56] <pfred1> oh give me $3
[01:07:57] <ds2> ##$!#@$#$!@%!@#!@!@#!#!@
[01:08:02] <pfred1> tell me about it
[01:08:15] <pfred1> I could have went back the next day and bought it all for like $100
[01:08:28] <pfred1> but I was moving and that stuff is heavy!
[01:08:39] <pfred1> I still got loads of parallels and vee blocks and stuff
[01:08:58] <fenn> * fenn drools
[01:09:01] <ds2> I'd just grab all the metrology stuff
[01:09:24] <pfred1> it was the end of the day and I was tired and it was in a gloomy beasment it was hard to take in
[01:09:37] <pfred1> but you're talking a lifetime of accumulation
[01:09:44] <pfred1> it was all in there somewhere
[01:09:59] <ds2> I am still looking for a cheap rockwell tester
[01:10:13] <pfred1> a file ;)
[01:10:27] <ds2> :P
[01:10:47] <ds2> with the files I have, everything will come out harder then the file :(
[01:11:03] <pfred1> yeah i buy those too when I come across them
[01:11:19] <pfred1> got some nice austrian ones
[01:11:43] <ds2> I picked up one cheap but it has problems that the mfg says is not economical to repair
[01:11:56] <pfred1> a file?
[01:12:06] <ds2> no, hardness tester
[01:12:10] <pfred1> oh
[01:12:18] <ds2> my files are all imports
[01:12:34] <pfred1> I don't live in austria so that is an import to me
[01:12:47] <ds2> but can it cut more then butter? :D
[01:13:09] <pfred1> I only work on mild steels
[01:15:58] <pfred1> I suppose if it came down to it I could try to harden something but then I'd simply accept whatever I could do as far as how hard it got
[01:16:45] <pfred1> for a ittle while I worked at a place that made printing press dies and we'd harden them it was crazy
[01:16:54] <ds2> it would nice to make a proper tool (like a chisel for wood) and a testor could allow for less blind work
[01:18:21] <pfred1> make it you'll know if it is hard or not
[01:19:23] <ds2> but isn't too hard likely to cause cracks?
[01:19:25] <pfred1> we used this oven we soaked the metal in there was a white powder I've no idea today what it was but we'd bake it until it was molten then dip the dies into it until they seemed transparent when you pulled them out
[01:19:48] <pfred1> and quenched them in salt water
[01:19:58] <pfred1> sometimes they'd warp
[01:20:19] <ds2> the hardness would vary depending on the material
[01:20:20] <pfred1> these were thick heavy dies
[01:20:27] <pfred1> like an inch thick
[01:20:47] <pfred1> and when I pulled them out of that oven you'd swear you could look right through them
[01:22:02] <pfred1> so whatever that white junk we'd melt molten was must have held the steel at just the right temperature
[01:22:44] <pfred1> was like a bright orange
[01:23:39] <pfred1> I hated doing that i had like no safety equipment what so ever
[01:24:37] <pfred1> I'd open that oven door and that heat would hit me like blammo
[01:25:18] <pfred1> then when I dumped the dies into the barrels of salt water I could barely get out of the way in time for the explosion
[01:27:25] <pfred1> they said they used to use oil but that'd burst into flames
[01:27:35] <pfred1> glad i wasn't there for that!
[01:29:41] <pfred1> the guy I was working with went out to lunch one day and never came back so the next day I did it too :)
[01:32:46] <ds2> heh
[01:32:56] <fenn> hum, seems j33 drill chuck arbors only come in 1/2 and 5/8 shank?
[01:35:31] <pfred1> I still wonder what that white powdery junk in that furnace was
[01:36:03] <pfred1> I think they told me once but I've forgotten as i can recall it wasn't the healthiest stuff known to man either
[01:43:24] <pfred1> oh if it was slaked lime i guess it wasn't all that bad news
[01:49:55] <pfred1> ds2 all this chat about hardening makes me want to work on another project I've had on the back burner so t ospeak i want to make some gouges out of old files here
[01:50:20] <ds2> heh
[01:50:34] <ds2> all I wanted to do was make a wood working drawknife...
[01:50:38] <pfred1> gouges are hideously expensive to buy!
[01:50:48] <pfred1> oh I've a bunch of draw knives
[01:50:57] <ds2> gouges are teh things you use on a wood lathe, right?
[01:51:12] <pfred1> well yes you can use them with lathes or just for craving too
[01:51:19] <pfred1> carving even
[01:51:42] <pfred1> though lathe gouges and carving gouges have opposite bevels
[01:51:58] <ds2> that's a function of the final grind, i take it?
[01:52:05] <pfred1> yes
[01:52:42] <pfred1> but I have a whole paint bucket packed full with old files I could play around with
[01:53:19] <ds2> are those carbon steel all the way through or just case hardened?
[01:53:19] <fenn> make some klingon swords and sell them to trekkies
[01:53:45] <pfred1> ds2 I don't know but I'd forge them in charcoal so they should come out pretty hard
[01:54:24] <pfred1> ds2 I bought one of my draw knives at a yard sale for a quarter
[01:54:39] <pfred1> guy thought it was for cutting tall grass
[01:55:28] <pfred1> draw knives are a huge pain to sharpen
[01:56:35] <pfred1> I need to take a new picture of my caveman tool collection
[01:57:45] <pfred1> ds2 know what is harder to get than draw knives? adzes
[01:58:18] <pfred1> I'd still like to have a gutter adze
[01:58:52] <pfred1> I have loads of old axe heads I've often thought of trying to forge one of those into a gutter adze
[02:01:11] <pfred1> this is highway robbery! http://www.shopatron.com/products/productdetail/part_number=479/235.0?utm_source=google&utm_medium=shopping&utm_campaign=googleshopping&os=googleshopping
[02:07:03] <pfred1> someone tell me that this isn't a half a lawnmower blade please! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300478070230&hlp=false&rvr_id=163826263239&crlp=1_263602_304652&UA=L*%3F%3F&GUID=70765b5e1250a0437446fa46ffc7e6b9&itemid=300478070230&ff4=263602_304652
[02:26:42] <ds2> I'd love to have an adze
[02:28:45] <pfred1> I have two just not a gutter adze
[02:29:08] <pfred1> I've a short straight and a shipwrights
[02:30:07] <fenn> pfred1: probably a leaf spring from an old chevy :)
[02:30:26] <pfred1> fenn I'm telling you it is a half a lawnmower blade
[02:31:01] <pfred1> I've seen enough lawnmower blades to know a half of one when I see one
[02:31:41] <fenn> well at least he's not selling it for $400
[02:32:10] <fenn> somehow i managed not to see that enco sells 3/4" shank J33 arbors
[02:32:15] <pfred1> new my tractor blades are like $28 the last time I bought some so yeah i guess it isn't too far off
[02:32:39] <pfred1> though he probably pulls them off junked lawn mowers
[02:45:18] <fenn> anyone ever used these cam-lock clamps? opinions? http://www.cdcotools.com/item.php?itemid=477
[02:45:39] <fenn> seems like a neat idea, and totally diy-able
[02:46:02] <pfred1> I found the video where the guy is making the adzes!
[02:46:18] <pfred1> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1GxILWisIg
[02:48:44] <pfred1> fenn it won't load that page for me just takes me to: http://www.cdcotools.com/index.php
[02:52:42] <fenn> hmm that sucks.. it's in "machine tool tooling" -> "milling machine tooling" -> "cam lock clamping set" about halfway down
[02:53:46] <pfred1> I got it
[02:53:58] <fenn> basically you have an eccentric bolt head so it pushes sideways and down at the same time
[02:54:02] <pfred1> honestly they look pretty bogus to me
[02:54:24] <pfred1> I guess if you're doing really soft materials I wouldn't trust them for milling steel though
[02:54:56] <pfred1> 'I used to make downholding clamps at one job I did they're so so
[02:56:26] <pfred1> google is brain dead i should take a picture of them and upload it
[02:57:01] <pfred1> they are a pretty neat design
[02:57:08] <pfred1> let me get my camera
[03:03:45] <pfred1> fenn http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/5871/jsclamps.jpg
[03:03:58] <pfred1> the one in the middle is only half done
[03:04:36] <pfred1> it is supposed to have threads in the cove cutout in the middle there
[03:05:27] <fenn> yes that looks quite a bit more stable
[03:05:40] <pfred1> and they're still not all that swift
[03:05:50] <pfred1> I use them as like backing blocks and stuff mostly
[03:06:04] <fenn> i don't quite get the diagonal nut part though.. is that a set screw?
[03:06:09] <pfred1> if i really want ot hold soemthing down I use dogs
[03:06:21] <pfred1> OK this is how it works
[03:06:29] <pfred1> in the nose there is a pocket without threads
[03:06:54] <pfred1> so when you crank on the set it engages the half threads on the body which drives the head down the dovetail
[03:07:07] <pfred1> which is admittedly brilliant
[03:07:29] <pfred1> henry was like that
[03:07:39] <fenn> so the set screw is pushing axially on the moving part
[03:08:01] <pfred1> well you have the slope of the dovetail that pushes
[03:08:16] <pfred1> the screw just drives the nose down the dovetail
[03:08:47] <pfred1> but your push in force comes from the slope of the dovetail
[03:08:54] <fenn> is the hole in the nose a blind (half) hole?
[03:08:58] <pfred1> it drives in and down at the same time
[03:09:14] <pfred1> we called the cut in the nose the pocket
[03:09:25] <pfred1> pocket that holds the screw
[03:09:39] <pfred1> I don't know if i have any just noses lying around
[03:09:49] <pfred1> I should have swiped more stuff off that job
[03:10:15] <fenn> well i'll definitely make a couple of those, looks useful
[03:10:18] <pfred1> I should have snagged one of the wheel dressers we made
[03:10:42] <pfred1> some of those cost like 10 grand
[03:10:57] <fenn> was it a a quorn :P
[03:11:05] <pfred1> to cut the dovetails we used a broach
[03:11:16] <pfred1> bit nicer than a quorn
[03:12:16] <pfred1> this ones beat http://compare.ebay.com/like/370413741829?ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&rvr_id=163851040111&crlp=1_263602_304662&UA=L*%3F%3F&GUID=70765b5e1250a0437446fa46ffc7e6b9&itemid=370413741829&ff4=263602_304662
[03:12:24] <pfred1> still has a mic base though
[03:12:49] <pfred1> just that base was $500
[03:13:04] <pfred1> I used to make those though
[03:13:53] <pfred1> there is supposed to be a plate in the front of it where you can see that hole now
[03:14:39] <pfred1> this is an expensive one! http://www.dempseyandco.com/DSCN0117.JPG
[03:14:45] <pfred1> that one cost bucks
[03:15:07] <pfred1> it also isn't nearly as beat it has a recent rebuild on it
[03:15:31] <pfred1> I may have in fact rebuilt that one
[03:17:27] <fenn> i can't figure out what all that stuff does
[03:17:45] <pfred1> I don't think anyone ever has
[03:18:14] <pfred1> at least that was the rumor no one has ever completely figured out everything they do
[03:18:46] <pfred1> but depending on how you set it up you can dress a grinding wheel with a radius or an angle
[03:19:15] <pfred1> or combinations
[03:19:30] <pfred1> all I ever knew how to do with them was rebuild them to factory specs
[03:20:14] <pfred1> instead of the diamond I'd have to put a carbide ball mounted in a stud there and rig it so an .0005 indicator wouldn't move
[03:21:28] <pfred1> see the pin sticking up on the left on the rotating base?
[03:22:09] <pfred1> there is another pin perpendicular to that on the upright and you'd mike between those two pins and the distance between the diamond and the back of the upright
[03:22:25] <pfred1> and with some funky math you'd come up with what it'd so
[03:23:54] <pfred1> what'd it'd do even
[03:25:06] <pfred1> pin on the right even I don't know my left from my right anymore
[03:25:44] <pfred1> you can sort of see the other mike pin that comes off the upright in that picture as well
[03:26:05] <pfred1> it is about halfway in the arc of the upright
[04:15:13] <Connor> Okay, why do my steppers wine when idle when they're in 1/8stepping, but not 1/2 stepping.. ?
[04:15:41] <pfred1> Connor TB5650s?
[04:15:44] <Connor> Yea.
[04:15:48] <pfred1> 6560s even
[04:16:07] <pfred1> yeah they're noisy
[04:16:09] <Connor> Well.. TB6560AHQ0
[04:16:34] <Connor> and do I really care about doing 1/8 vs 1/2 ?
[04:17:16] <pfred1> it'd depend
[04:18:10] <Connor> on what? :)
[04:18:36] <pfred1> resolution smoothness resonance lots of things
[04:19:29] <pfred1> I wish I could run more fractional srepping byt my computer can't put out the pulse train to get speed
[04:19:43] <Connor> What do you run at?
[04:20:19] <pfred1> half I don't fully understand how EMC puts out pulses yet
[04:20:35] <pfred1> like if i lie to it it'll give me a higher frequency
[04:21:08] <pfred1> but if i say it is what it is then I don't get the fast step timing
[04:21:48] <Connor2> Did you up run stepconf?
[04:22:03] <pfred1> yes
[04:22:18] <Connor2> Connor2 is now known as Connor_CNC
[04:23:09] <pfred1> I've run stepconf and changed a lot of things with my motor driver
[04:23:40] <pfred1> what I can't change is my latency on my machine though
[04:23:46] <pfred1> which is pretty high
[04:24:03] <pfred1> so that limits me with the step pulses i can get
[04:24:30] <pfred1> my driver runs great at higher fractional steppings it just doesn't run very fast
[04:25:47] <Connor_CNC> I'm tweaking mine right now..
[04:26:34] <pfred1> did you ever test your current draw?
[04:26:44] <Connor_CNC> Yea. I figured it out.
[04:26:56] <pfred1> so you measured it?
[04:27:11] <Connor_CNC> The docs were wrong.. I had them set to 50% even though the docs said 75%
[04:27:12] <pfred1> because there is no figuring it out it is what it is
[04:27:23] <Connor_CNC> yes. I messured.
[04:27:31] <pfred1> and it varies with the speed of the motor as well
[04:27:54] <Connor_CNC> I used the same speed and acceleration for all the tests... and ran a back and forth movement @ 0.05mm
[04:28:21] <pfred1> what were you drawing?
[04:28:33] <Connor_CNC> The Y axis has something strange going on with it.. it always ran at 75% even if it was at 50%. 100% and 25% worked just fine..
[04:28:48] <Connor_CNC> and I had both X and Y set to 50% because the docs said that setting was 75%
[04:28:50] <pfred1> the only thing that really matters is holding
[04:29:04] <pfred1> that is where you'll draw the most
[04:29:21] <pfred1> set hold at your motor's upper limit
[04:29:34] <Connor_CNC> 75% is good.
[04:29:49] <Connor_CNC> 100% caused them to whine too much.. and I can get some good speed now..
[04:29:58] <pfred1> I honestly don't even know what the current setting is good for on the 6560
[04:30:46] <pfred1> because that isn't how you set the current limit
[04:31:05] <pfred1> how current is limited on the 6560 is a major drawback of the hardware
[04:31:28] <pfred1> the allegro stuff does it a lot better
[04:32:43] <Connor_CNC> It works for my cnc.. price was right too.
[04:33:09] <pfred1> I didn't say it didn't work just it is a hassle compared to how others do it
[04:33:34] <pfred1> others you can tweak a pot and get current adjustment
[04:33:46] <pfred1> with the 6560 you have to change the sense resistors
[04:34:22] <pfred1> but you're not hearing me whenever i tell yo uthis so whatever
[04:34:41] <Connor_CNC> I get what your saying.
[04:35:42] <pfred1> the current setting on the chip doesn't do what yo uthink it does
[04:36:55] <pfred1> at least toshiba never put it there for that purpose
[04:37:56] <pfred1> and the whining is because of inductance on your current sense path
[04:38:18] <pfred1> in case you've wondering
[04:38:41] <Connor_CNC> okay. and what can be done about that.. it goes away if I do 1/2 stepping vs 1/8 stepping.
[04:39:08] <pfred1> well if your resistors are in fact non inductive then not much
[04:39:23] <pfred1> but if it is relaly whining then your resistors are probably wire wounds
[04:40:00] <pfred1> get the right current sense resistors and try them out
[04:40:21] <pfred1> unless you have an inductance meter then you can just test them
[04:40:35] <Connor_CNC> I don't have that.
[04:40:38] <Connor_CNC> Just a standard volt meter
[04:40:45] <pfred1> yeah not to omany do
[04:41:28] <pfred1> so what were your motors drawing on hold?
[04:41:32] <atmega> you can make one with an arduino
[04:41:50] <Connor_CNC> I don't remember now..
[04:42:15] <pfred1> run doesn't matter as long as you are within tolerance on hold it'll never go over that
[04:44:12] <pfred1> like i told you the last time where they get you on the chinese boards is with the current sense resistors
[04:44:31] <pfred1> good ones can cost almost $3 a resistor
[04:44:39] <pfred1> and you need two a chip
[04:45:06] <pfred1> so you can see how they might want to cheat a little there
[04:45:49] <pfred1> you're talking $24 in resistors for your board
[04:46:35] <pfred1> and they know depending on the application you're going to change them anyways so why waste the cash?
[04:47:02] <atmega> http://raleigh.craigslist.org/tls/2044848201.html
[04:47:08] <Connor_CNC> Okay, what does it mean when I get join 1 follow error?
[04:47:48] <pfred1> atmega http://users.xplornet.com/~rwenig/Home/EMES 2010/
[04:48:08] <atmega> 404
[04:48:25] <pfred1> oh %20 the space
[04:48:27] <atmega> err... bad paste
[04:48:48] <pfred1> my stupid browser plays cute and drops it out
[04:49:07] <atmega> any idea what mill that is/
[04:49:19] <atmega> It looks like I could actually fit it in my garage
[04:49:43] <pfred1> looks like it says MSO on it
[04:49:59] <pfred1> no wait MSG
[04:50:45] <atmega> was there a particular picture in that dir?
[04:50:59] <pfred1> atmega no was just a whole show
[04:51:28] <pfred1> atmega sort of inspiring to see people wasting so much effort just because they've nothing better to do don't you think?
[04:51:31] <atmega> people make some really nifty stuff
[04:52:00] <atmega> heh... I spent several hours drawing and cam'ing a drink holder for my boat
[04:52:16] <pfred1> when God gave you two!
[04:53:04] <pfred1> some of the stuff is pretty nuts at that show it always is though I guess
[04:53:34] <atmega> I cut some pockets/mortises .125, milled down some plastic to what should be .125, they don't fit very well
[04:55:56] <pfred1> milling plastic i think requires special tooling or just adjusting to the plastic effect
[04:56:25] <pfred1> like a .125 end mill through a lot of plastic won't net a .125 channel
[04:56:49] <pfred1> least it never seems to for me
[04:57:47] <atmega> yeah, could be I zero'ed off the top... should have done the table perhaps
[04:59:08] <pfred1> I wonder if this machine says MSC?
[04:59:49] <pfred1> MSC is a tool catalog
[05:00:15] <pfred1> http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRHM?cm_re=HomePage-_-SiteLogo-_-HomePage
[05:00:29] <pfred1> could have been them branding a machine
[05:00:44] <pfred1> as to what it actually is I've no idea
[05:02:16] <H264> H264 is now known as WalterN
[05:07:51] <kb8wmc> atmega: I finally got the hang of running Realize...
[05:08:37] <pfred1> atmega think that mill may be this mill? http://www.harborfreight.com/vertical-milling-machine-40939.html
[05:08:46] <pfred1> just an older vintage of it
[05:11:13] <ds2> sharp tools and many many passes help
[05:11:33] <pfred1> ds2 wiht plastic?
[05:18:39] <ds2> yeah
[05:18:50] <ds2> and coolant is good too
[05:18:51] <fenn> the mill i'm getting has the same travel dimensions, if a bit lighter http://www.grizzly.com/products/Mill-Drill/G0463
[05:19:10] <pfred1> ds2 some plastic seems to flow like stretch away from tools
[05:19:56] <pfred1> fenn that mill is a lot smaller
[05:20:26] <pfred1> thats a sieg X3 clone
[05:23:38] <pfred1> fenn although at 445 pounds it is still dealing with more than a big block engine
[05:24:28] <pfred1> I have an RF-32 and i have to say I hate whenever i have to move the thing
[05:27:13] <pfred1> fenn when you get your mill remember bend at the knees!
[05:27:32] <Connor_CNC> Is there a way to get EMC to show the Velocity in MM (or INCH) per second vs minute?
[05:28:09] <pfred1> isn't ips just ipm / 60 ?
[05:29:15] <pfred1> fenn are you going to cnc your mill?
[05:31:13] <ds2> pfred1: yes, I try to avoid too gooey plastics
[05:31:32] <pfred1> ds2 I love HDPE
[05:31:40] <ds2> abs, pvc, acrylic, polycarb,and nylon seem to all behave nicely
[05:31:41] <pfred1> but it is really gooey
[05:31:55] <pfred1> nylon is too expensive
[05:31:58] <ds2> if HDPE is anything like its cousin UHMW....
[05:32:15] <pfred1> yeah they're alike
[05:33:02] <pfred1> actually the same one is just shorthand for the other AFAIK
[05:33:17] <ds2> thought the chains are lower on UHMW
[05:33:25] <pfred1> milk bottles are HDPE
[05:34:11] <pfred1> not that i mill milk bottles but it is the same plastic
[05:34:18] <ds2> heheh
[05:34:27] <fenn> pfred1: most likely, but it will probably be a while
[05:34:57] <pfred1> fenn lets hope yours has less backlash than my mill does or do you plan on getting ball screws?
[05:35:21] <pfred1> once you ball screw you can't manually mill anymore
[05:35:26] <fenn> i have some ultra cheap ballscrews coming in on monday(? hopefully)
[05:35:38] <fenn> people say that but i don't believe it
[05:35:48] <ds2> what's ultra cheap ? $0.25/ft?
[05:35:49] <pfred1> believe it
[05:36:05] <pfred1> you need the friction of a regular lead to manually mill
[05:36:09] <fenn> i will add some friction then :P
[05:36:31] <pfred1> have you ever milled?
[05:36:38] <fenn> ds2: $15 for two 18 inch screws with nuts
[05:36:49] <fenn> from surpluscenter.com
[05:36:52] <ds2> what diameter?
[05:36:58] <fenn> 1" 4tpi
[05:37:30] <fenn> 5tpi would be better but oh well
[05:37:32] <ds2> big!
[05:37:49] <fenn> yeah there's also the question of whether it will actually fit
[05:38:02] <pfred1> fenn the only reason milling works is because milling machines hold things very steady during the process either the machine holds it or the motors do
[05:38:19] <pfred1> fenn or things go flying take your pick
[05:38:49] <fenn> um.. you can lock the slide you know
[05:39:03] <pfred1> you mean the gib?
[05:39:48] <pfred1> I've been milling for about 25 years now or so
[05:41:01] <ds2> ballscrews would make climb cutting a bit easier
[05:41:12] <fenn> i dont get what leadscrew friction has to do with keeping things steady
[05:41:17] <pfred1> yeah you wouldn't even need a power feed
[05:41:33] <ds2> no friction means you can loose control of the feed
[05:41:45] <pfred1> yeah the tool would walk on the work
[05:41:50] <ds2> the spindle can suck things in or toss things out along the axis of feed
[05:41:57] <fenn> but you're holding onto the handle
[05:42:07] <pfred1> for dear life
[05:42:18] <pfred1> you can't fight the machine
[05:42:24] <fenn> ffs it's a <1hp motor
[05:42:42] <pfred1> OK you'll see
[05:43:13] <pfred1> for really soft materials you may get away with it
[05:43:22] <pfred1> aluminum plastics
[05:43:59] <ds2> climb cut steel
[05:44:12] <pfred1> yeah you'll be just making gears then
[05:44:22] <fenn> gear racks :P
[05:44:25] <pfred1> zoom!
[05:44:40] <ds2> hope you have end stops on the table ;)
[05:45:15] <pfred1> but that is half the reason I never CNCed my mill
[05:45:22] <fenn> i dont see what's the difference between a ballscrew with friction and an acme screw
[05:45:44] <pfred1> about 10 times difference
[05:47:10] <pfred1> it depends what you want to do that machine is probably too light to work steel anyways
[05:47:39] <pfred1> my machine it too light to work steel and it is a couple hundred pounds heavier
[05:48:02] <fenn> how can a machine be "too light to work steel"?
[05:48:12] <pfred1> can't dampen the chatter
[05:48:13] <fenn> reduce the cutter size to increase pressure
[05:48:33] <fenn> i can work steel with a dremel tool
[05:48:45] <pfred1> but can you mill it?
[05:49:21] <fenn> with eensy weensy milling bits
[05:49:38] <pfred1> if you've never milled you are in for quite an adventure
[05:50:14] <fenn> i've never milled steel, only aluminum
[05:50:14] <pfred1> I'll tell you this learn your speeds and feeds
[05:50:34] <pfred1> do that and you've got it half way licked
[05:50:50] <fenn> i understand the theory
[05:51:17] <fenn> there are some things i dont get though, like why everybody uses kurt vises instead of screwless vises
[05:51:25] <pfred1> realize that feed and speeds are unique to machines but you can just go with the general rules to begin with
[05:52:23] <fenn> yeah most of the speeds are based on maximum characteristics of the cutter material on a super rigid industrial sized machine
[05:52:30] <pfred1> right
[05:52:48] <fenn> blue chips and such
[05:53:03] <pfred1> oh yeah coolant makes a huge difference too
[05:53:09] <pfred1> don't cut steel dry
[05:53:22] <pfred1> it comes out like ass
[05:53:59] <pfred1> well unless you're using carbide but carbide likes big machines
[05:54:04] <fenn> what do you recommend for "coolant" without lots of containment enclosure cabinetry?
[05:54:21] <pfred1> I use an old oxy clean squirt bottle
[05:54:37] <fenn> huh?
[05:54:38] <pfred1> though i am planning on upgrading to an old palmolive botle
[05:54:58] <pfred1> I don't have a sump pump coolant system
[05:55:02] <pfred1> I just squirt
[05:55:18] <fenn> er. but what goes in the bottle?
[05:55:29] <pfred1> oh emulisified oil
[05:55:43] <pfred1> sometimes it is called milk
[05:56:00] <pfred1> there is white and pink i use white
[05:56:03] <fenn> ok. i figured if you were applying it straight you could use something better than emulsified
[05:56:14] <pfred1> nah mixed with water
[05:57:00] <pfred1> water emulsion is good enough it is pretty much what everyone uses
[05:57:07] <fenn> i was reading about 'environmentally friendly' cutting fluid and it seems to be just biodiesel
[05:57:47] <pfred1> I try not to get my cutting fluid all over everything so I don't see how it messes with the environment
[05:58:50] <pfred1> yeah you use coolant and the right speed and stuff will work how you expect it to
[05:58:59] <pfred1> well as close as you're going to get
[05:59:16] <pfred1> benchtop mills are not bridgeports
[06:00:26] <pfred1> how do you know what speed you are going with the mill you're getting?
[06:01:19] <pfred1> it is incredible how finicky my machine is about the fight surface speed
[06:01:28] <pfred1> s/fight/right/g;
[06:02:36] <fenn> i have no idea
[06:02:52] <pfred1> a tach might be the first thing yo uwant to invest in then
[06:03:40] <pfred1> drilling it matters but not as much but milling I have to be dead on to get good results
[06:04:40] <pfred1> I put the speeds into my cutter box with magic marker
[06:04:55] <pfred1> saves me a lot of time
[06:05:35] <pfred1> like my mill is a 12 speed so on say the 1/2" end mill I'd write #8
[06:05:57] <pfred1> so I'd know to set the machine on speed #8
[06:07:12] <pfred1> fenn while you are beginning it helps a lot to keep a shop notebook
[06:07:32] <pfred1> fenn material you worked tool you used speed results
[06:08:23] <pfred1> tapping can be sort of funny too
[06:08:48] <pfred1> I recorded a lot of information about tapping
[06:09:17] <pfred1> tap percentage charts are rough guidelines
[06:10:29] <fenn> well the drill doesn't really drill what size it's supposed to
[06:11:33] <fenn> how do you even decide what percent thread form to use anyway?
[06:11:33] <pfred1> like for a 1/4-20 I have this one bit that is it in steel
[06:12:07] <pfred1> a #2 or something? it is like .202 ? all I know is it does the perfect hole for the tap
[06:12:34] <fenn> i use a 13/64 screw machine bit because it's the same length as the tap :P
[06:12:52] <fenn> "why would it matter how long it is" you ask
[06:13:29] <pfred1> yeah drill bits are easy enough to cut down bit harder to make longer but I've done that as well
[06:15:42] <pfred1> when drill bits are cheap I stock up
[06:17:53] <pfred1> I got one Kennedy machinists chest dedicated to just tooling and 3 drawers are packed with loose twist bits
[06:18:12] <pfred1> on top of my 4 index boxes of bit sets
[06:18:23] <pfred1> or is it 5?