#emc | Logs for 2010-10-30

[00:04:24] <theorb> theorb is now known as theorbtwo
[00:35:22] <pcncx> andypugh hi there
[00:35:37] <andypugh> Hi
[00:35:57] <pcncx> look at the funny picture of EMC2 http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/369/funnyl.png
[00:36:07] <pcncx> well see if you can spot what is so funny about it
[00:37:10] <andypugh> I hate it when it does that
[00:37:20] <pcncx> you know what causes it?
[00:37:34] <pcncx> as in you've seen it before?
[00:37:37] <andypugh> I tend to blame the devs.
[00:37:42] <cradek> huh?
[00:37:52] <cradek> what's wrong with it?
[00:37:56] <pcncx> the asian charactrers that look like little men
[00:38:00] <pcncx> in the gcode
[00:38:44] <andypugh> Ah, hang on, I was looking at the "Can't do that without being homed" when you clearly are.
[00:38:48] <cradek> ??
[00:38:56] <cradek> the text looks fine to me
[00:39:00] <pcncx> oh those are supposed to go away?
[00:39:12] <pcncx> top line before the pound sign
[00:39:15] <pcncx> at the end
[00:39:19] <cradek> you can click the X or use control-space to clear the error
[00:39:29] <DaViruz> the asterisk?
[00:39:31] <cradek> that's a *
[00:39:36] <pcncx> oh yeah i know i can click them away I don't always bother to
[00:39:38] <andypugh> (You can if you have a CTRL key, grumble)
[00:39:42] <pcncx> oh that is an asterick?
[00:39:54] <DaViruz> it's asterix
[00:40:00] <andypugh> Aye, looks like a slightly odd multiplication sign.
[00:40:01] <DaViruz> the fat one after it is obelix
[00:40:02] <cradek> dude
[00:40:04] <pcncx> well one of these >*<
[00:40:27] <andypugh> Ah, that's an asterisk.
[00:40:51] <DaViruz> no kidding :-P
[00:41:19] <pcncx> is that what that chinese looking thing is?
[00:41:53] <pcncx> I thought i was going international over here or something
[00:42:04] <cradek> just a slightly lousy font
[00:42:16] <pcncx> yeah I'll have to work on that
[00:42:40] <pcncx> because that is one sad excuse for an asterisk
[00:43:03] <DaViruz> your vision is too good if you could make the man-connection
[00:43:12] <DaViruz> i only see a blob slightly above the centerline
[00:43:13] <DaViruz> :)
[00:43:32] <pcncx> DaViruz I do too without reading glasses but I wear them now
[00:44:17] <pcncx> the thing has like 5 rays coming out of it
[00:44:32] <pcncx> I mean its not even symetrical top to bottom
[00:44:50] <cradek> if it was, how would you tell if you're upside-down?
[00:45:05] <pcncx> cradek you've a point there
[00:45:35] <pcncx> cradek ever hear about the upside down glasses experiment?
[00:46:13] <cradek> yes - the punchline is you get used to it after a while, right?
[00:46:25] <pcncx> its not a joke we see upside down naturally
[00:46:39] <pcncx> we don't have the optics to see otherwise
[00:47:03] <pcncx> but yeah yo uwear inversin glasses for a day and your brain flips it then when yo utake them off the world is upside down!
[00:47:19] <pcncx> inversion even
[00:47:22] <cradek> yes I meant punchline = result of experiment
[00:47:23] <andypugh> If you took the video tape spools out of the cassette, and swapped them so that the tape was upside down, what would you expect to happen to the picture?
[00:47:50] <pcncx> I'd expect my VCR to eat the tape and spit it back out at me
[00:48:01] <pcncx> though i have repaired tapes
[00:48:02] <cradek> andypugh: the tv probably wouldn't sync
[00:48:11] <qq-> btw, my "asterisk" panel don't fit my screen (1024x768) , on gnome without moving one up/down panel bare
[00:48:30] <andypugh> Assuming that it did synch and didn't eat the tape (it didn't, it worked as I expected)
[00:48:44] <pcncx> qq- can you do any higher resolution your monitor?
[00:48:53] <pcncx> because 1024x768 is marginal
[00:48:54] <cradek> upside down so the same side of the tape is against the head?
[00:49:01] <pcncx> you can do it but just barely
[00:49:25] <andypugh> Yes. basically flip the spools to the opposite side and upside down.
[00:49:41] <qq-> pcncx, i think yes , but i prefer 1024x768
[00:50:06] <pcncx> qq- well then you're goingto have ot just live with it do yo uhave virtual desktop?
[00:50:31] <pcncx> like when you get to the end of the screen does the desktop scroll?
[00:51:09] <qq-> not sure i get you
[00:51:32] <pcncx> yeah i guess you have to sort of experience virtual desktop or i suck at describing it
[00:52:02] <pcncx> qq- at lower resolutions you have more video memory than the display requires so X can virtualize your desktop
[00:52:18] <qq-> i see
[00:52:22] <pcncx> so you have more desktop but you only see a window of it
[00:52:51] <pcncx> and when you mouse around the desktop scrolls when you get to a screen edge
[00:53:12] <pcncx> I don't know if i like it or not myself i usually don't virtual desktop
[00:53:39] <qq-> no, don't get it , anyways i can live with it for now
[00:54:24] <cradek> andypugh: each scan (helix) is a field, so I think (if it synced) the field would reverse - so it would flip left/right and top/bottom both
[00:54:40] <pcncx> qq- this sort of describes it but I don't know what the graphic is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_desktop
[00:55:14] <pcncx> that cube looking graphic is NOT what I was talking about
[00:55:47] <qq-> pcncx, heh , ok
[00:56:01] <pcncx> but the beginning description I guess is
[00:56:09] <andypugh> cradek: Aye, it does. Most folk are convinced that you are kidding them when you tell them that turning the tape upside down inverts the picture.
[00:56:22] <andypugh> (it runs backwards too)
[00:56:35] <cradek> andypugh: sure - obviously :-)
[00:56:38] <pcncx> andypugh I was going to say wouldn't it just be easier to flip the TV over
[00:57:06] <cradek> andypugh: I don't see how it could track - the index? track is just at one edge
[00:57:46] <pcncx> hmm this page says only some window managers do virtual desktops but I thought it was in the server?
[00:57:55] <cradek> pcncx: no, it's a wm trick
[00:58:00] <pcncx> you set it in the conf file
[00:58:20] <cradek> ah there are two things
[00:58:28] <cradek> one is an X screen bigger than the monitor
[00:58:29] <andypugh> I was watching a really good Tim Hunkin documentary about video recorders (back when they were a "must have" not a "what is that then" when it occurred to me. One demo was taking a VHS apart and replacing the read heads with felt-tip-pens and pulling a strip of paper past
[00:58:34] <pcncx> I don't mean desk top switching
[00:58:38] <pcncx> I mean scrolling
[00:58:39] <cradek> the other is virtual desktops
[00:58:47] <cradek> yeah that can be done in the server settings
[00:59:12] <pcncx> that is what i mean when I say virtual desktop but i can see how the others are virtual desktops as well
[00:59:17] <cradek> cool - fun experiment
[00:59:34] <andypugh> pcncx: Means something else, I think. Laptops can do it, where the effective screen is bigger than the panel, and when you get close to the edges the mouse stops and the screen moves.
[00:59:55] <pcncx> andypugh exactly
[01:00:00] <pcncx> some video drivers do it
[01:00:05] <pcncx> but X does it
[01:00:17] <pcncx> no matter what the video driver
[01:00:33] <pcncx> I think you define virtual in your xorg.conf
[01:00:42] <andypugh> cradek: Better still was the programme where him and his crony built a fax machine each using their (identical) Colcester Student lathes.
[01:00:48] <pcncx> its been a while since i messed with it
[01:01:11] <cradek> andypugh: yep, the 'secret life of machines' series were awesome
[01:01:22] <pcncx> hehe it sounds it
[01:01:30] <pcncx> I like documentarys
[01:01:31] <cradek> did you know he released them all for free a few years back?
[01:01:51] <cradek> I liked the huge human powered sewing machine too
[01:02:13] <pcncx> how about bow lathes?
[01:02:26] <cradek> I remember watching them one a week when they were new (I'm old)
[01:02:42] <pcncx> I'm middle aged
[01:02:55] <pcncx> but i can see old from where I'm at!
[01:03:22] <cradek> I'm not really old, but when I think of stuff I did 20 years ago, I feel like I'm getting there
[01:03:25] <cradek> heh exactly :-)
[01:03:43] <cradek> I just tell myself - it's sure better than NOT getting older :-)
[01:03:46] <pcncx> know what makes me think I'm old?
[01:04:14] <pcncx> when I see a celebrity that i can remember when they were young and they're so old now!
[01:04:33] <cradek> pcncx: same for other people's kids
[01:04:35] <pcncx> like Chevy Chase he looks like a grandpa
[01:04:42] <pcncx> oh kids forget about it
[01:05:14] <andypugh> You see a baby you recall being born and think "Hmm, she's rather sexy now"
[01:05:18] <pcncx> you see them and you're like wholly smokes I mean they're getting ready to get married or something
[01:05:42] <pcncx> yeah 18 years can go by fast
[01:05:57] <pcncx> least the last 18 have
[01:06:38] <pcncx> I don't want to say it but i started my CNC project in 2001 but I sort of put it down for a while
[01:07:26] <pcncx> back then I ran BDI on an AMD 200
[01:08:13] <pcncx> someday I'll get it done :)
[01:10:08] <pcncx> I still got the install CD kicking around someplace
[01:10:24] <pcncx> I run across it from time to time
[09:07:17] <ChanServ> [#emc] "This is the #emc channel - talk related to the Enhanced Machine Controller and general machining. Website: http://www.linuxcnc.org/, wiki at http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/"
[09:34:20] <Guest432> Phish
[12:46:16] <ChanServ> [#emc] "This is the #emc channel - talk related to the Enhanced Machine Controller and general machining. Website: http://www.linuxcnc.org/, wiki at http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/"
[13:25:49] <geo01005> has anybody been able to use comedi with emc for analog feedback?
[13:58:14] <Guest432> Anyone using an encoder as a jogwheel on a mesa 7i43?
[14:00:43] <Guest432> or, 5i20
[14:02:45] <MattyMatt> I've got a twin parport in the post for my jogwheel
[14:04:00] <MattyMatt> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?JogWheel
[14:04:57] <MattyMatt> with 2 extra ports I may even trick out my machine with limit switches and an e-stop :)
[14:09:37] <MattyMatt> Jeri Ellsworth's sinker EDM vid has got me thinking. If I tried to carve a stamp into a TC tool blank with a piece of piano wire, would I get anywhere at all or just use up a lot of wire?
[14:11:28] <MattyMatt> that's probably idle curiosity, I'd try it on HSS first
[14:46:32] <elmo40> MattyMatt: trick out your machine with an eStop? I would think that is mandatory ;)
[14:47:16] <MattyMatt> on my slow machine I just need puffs of air to keep me awake while I'm watching
[14:48:19] <MattyMatt> is there a bell code I can insert in the gcode?
[14:49:15] <MattyMatt> o100 speak "Warning! heavy cut approaching"
[14:49:23] <elmo40> ladder logic, maybe?
[14:50:29] <MattyMatt> I'll have to learn that soon, for the jogwheel and the feedback from the sinker EDM
[15:17:32] <SWPadnos> M1xx codes could conceivably run a program that plays a sound
[15:20:52] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: !!!!
[16:24:03] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: ping
[16:53:45] <SWPadnos> hi Jymmm
[17:17:48] <Connor> Hey guys, what do you all use for CAD on linux?
[17:23:16] <IchGuckLive> Heekscad
[17:23:23] <IchGuckLive> Qcad
[17:23:29] <IchGuckLive> eagle
[17:24:11] <IchGuckLive> heekscad does produce also emc code direkt from sketch
[17:26:02] <IchGuckLive> Connor: what are you interested on mill lathe or simple g-codes like text pocketing ...
[17:28:56] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: Sorry, was paitn priming the air scrubber (even though there's a 70% chance of showers)
[17:29:29] <SWPadnos> yeah. we were moving some extra siding out into the back yard and doing misc. other outdoorsy things
[17:29:35] <SWPadnos> even though it is raining here
[17:30:06] <SWPadnos> in fact, I need to go out and wrap up the garden hose and some other stuff, so see you later :)
[17:30:09] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: Yeah, I didn't expect this project to take this long, but I wanted to take my time and do it right.
[17:30:16] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: C-ya
[17:30:20] <SWPadnos> he
[17:30:22] <SWPadnos> h
[17:31:14] <IchGuckLive> the Haloween party here in Ramstein/Germany is scrubt trouh to terror warnings what a miss
[17:33:59] <IchGuckLive> but in 30min the iss is to make direkt hit with brigtness neer to moon
[18:28:55] <pcncx> hey now!
[18:32:39] <pcncx> I was just reading ./configure --help in emc2-2.4.5 and it says --enable-run-in-place is A deprecated flag but docs/INSTALL says to do it I'm so confused!
[18:33:03] <pcncx> * pcncx gets no depreciation!
[19:09:35] <Connor> IchGuckLive: Just general 2D and 3D stuff.. that can save out to STL or Gcode..
[19:18:20] <skinnypup> pcncx, did you get the rtai module going ?
[19:18:54] <pcncx> skinnypup well i was doing some further reading about all of that and apparently sometimes some of those modules are built into other ones
[19:19:23] <pcncx> skinnypup tricky huh?
[19:19:26] <skinnypup> sounds like fun
[19:19:51] <pcncx> welcome to the EMC2 shell game!
[19:20:09] <skinnypup> lol
[19:21:39] <pcncx> now I was going to rebuild with the --enable-build-documentation switch but I ran across the --enable-run-in-place A deprecated flag fact
[19:22:17] <pcncx> because I am not one to forgo the reading of instructions when it comes to non trivial tasks
[20:06:17] <ChanServ> [#emc] "This is the #emc channel - talk related to the Enhanced Machine Controller and general machining. Website: http://www.linuxcnc.org/, wiki at http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/"
[21:12:46] <andypugh> My Resolver-to-Encoder converter works, to an extent.
[21:12:58] <pcncx> andypugh congratz
[21:13:02] <andypugh> Problem is, the 1% dither in the signal.
[21:13:34] <andypugh> Now, 1% isn't bad, but means that the the motor rattles at zero speed.
[21:14:13] <andypugh> I think I need to find some way to filter things at the Arduino end.
[21:14:57] <pcncx> somehow have an enable
[21:15:07] <pcncx> that you can disable
[21:15:10] <andypugh> I am pondering some sort of "Inertia Model", so that direction isn't allowed to change rapidly, but velocity can still be high.
[21:17:25] <theorb> theorb is now known as theorbtwo
[21:18:39] <waprat> waprat is now known as packrat
[21:22:06] <SWPadnos> andypugh, I'd be surprised if the Arduino A/D converters are much more accurate than 1%
[21:22:20] <SWPadnos> even the 10-bit ones generally suck
[21:22:24] <andypugh> Indeed, that is the problem.
[21:22:30] <SWPadnos> (built into the CPU anyway)
[21:22:54] <andypugh> And I have cranked down the sampling time to get the timing I need.
[21:23:26] <SWPadnos> I haven't looked at any Arduino schematics, but even if their analog power filtering is really good, the chips aren't
[21:23:46] <andypugh> 10 counts error during rapids is fine. I think some sort of rate-aware level of oversamping is called for.
[21:23:48] <SWPadnos> (I have even used DSPs that had A/Ds that sucked terribly, which was a surprise)
[21:24:06] <pcncx> how come someone doesn't update the INSTALL file in emc if --enable-run-in-place is deprecated?
[21:24:28] <SWPadnos> pcncx, probably an oversight
[21:24:55] <pcncx> SWPadnos well stuff like that only serves to confuse idiots like me!
[21:25:02] <SWPadnos> it's now the default mode for a compile, so it's not necessary. I don't know if it's actually deprecated (I don't remember deciding that, but I've been occupied with other things lately)
[21:25:08] <SWPadnos> that
[21:25:20] <SWPadnos> that's the idea - keeps you out of our hair for longer ;)
[21:25:29] <pcncx> SWPadnos ./configure --help says --enable-run-in-place A deprecated flag
[21:25:48] <SWPadnos> ok
[21:26:11] <pcncx> only reason I saw it though was because i wanted to get the build documentation flag
[21:26:27] <pcncx> but I already had seen the INSTALL file
[21:26:55] <pcncx> then when I ran into the depricated jazz i bacame confused
[21:27:07] <pcncx> and logged into IRC!
[21:28:47] <pcncx> well least it doesn't seem to hurt any hey here is another question if I want to build teh documentation do I need t orebuild everything or can I just reconfigure with the switch?
[21:28:53] <andypugh> --jazz is now deprecated, and replaced by --r&b
[21:28:59] <SWPadnos> strange. that file (configure.in) hasn't changed for over a year
[21:29:09] <SWPadnos> (at least according to my gitweb perusals
[21:29:20] <pcncx> andypugh John Mclaughlin is God!
[21:29:51] <pcncx> jazz is what R&B musicians play when they learn how to play
[21:30:30] <pcncx> SWPadnos well it all struck me as rather contradictory
[21:30:41] <pcncx> SWPadnos and this EMC stuff confuses me enough!
[21:30:55] <SWPadnos> yeah. I don't know why that flag is described as deprecated in the help. I don't think it actually is.
[21:31:13] <pcncx> SWPadnos then configure is wrong
[21:31:30] <SWPadnos> well, either that or I am
[21:31:32] <pcncx> they can't both be right
[21:31:54] <pcncx> do ./configure --help in 2.2.5
[21:31:55] <SWPadnos> it's all from the same file, so it's both right and wrong :)
[21:32:09] <SWPadnos> I see in the source that it will tell me the flag is deprecated
[21:32:19] <pcncx> it'll tell you that --enable-run-in-place A deprecated flag
[21:33:00] <pcncx> I donno maybe I'm being too critical but with stuff like this i try to watch every little detail
[21:33:02] <andypugh> I spent today struggling with the bldc-comp, the Arduino Resolver code and the Mesa 8i20 driver. Three bits of code all coming together on a bldc motor (and those are quite confusing enough). My level of confidence that any one of the bits of code is correct is quite low (I am writing all three) so it has been frustrating.
[21:33:08] <pcncx> because i miss enough as it is
[21:33:52] <pcncx> andypugh I know where you're coming from
[21:35:12] <pcncx> I'm lost with all this EMC stuff here I've no idea if I'm doing anything right or what
[21:36:28] <pcncx> heck I'll jsut do it the long way I gues and go get some lunch or something while it rebuilds
[21:39:09] <pcncx> wait a minute is the documentation just built by default?
[21:47:37] <SWPadnos> documentation is not built by default
[21:48:12] <SWPadnos> you need --enable-build-documentation for that, partly because there are several build dependencies for docs that aren't needed for the program builf
[21:48:14] <SWPadnos> d
[21:49:09] <andypugh> pcncx: I take it you are compiling EMC from source, so the question is why?
[22:22:38] <skinnypup> pcncx is running lenny
[22:29:25] <andypugh> Ah. I wonder why people do that sort of thing? I see no point fretting over what OS a single-purpose machine is running.
[22:31:45] <Jymmm> andypugh: I agree
[22:32:03] <Jymmm> If you want to play, get a play machine and move on.
[22:32:11] <andypugh> Who thought up the idea of HAL? It's brilliant.
[22:32:26] <Jymmm> andypugh: I think jmkasunich
[22:32:35] <Jymmm> but I dont know for sure
[22:34:01] <andypugh> I keep meaning to write a Wiki page on HAL, now that I understand it, but before I forget _not_understanding it.
[22:36:29] <andypugh> I accidentally just wrote most of it in a Forum message.
[22:38:04] <elmo40> nice
[22:38:44] <andypugh> Apart from the forum eating half of it.
[22:39:07] <andypugh> If you type three full stops in a row, it ignores that bot.
[22:39:13] <andypugh> (bit)
[22:39:30] <andypugh> If you use a £ sign it hides the whole message
[22:40:40] <andypugh> Does http://www.linuxcnc.org/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,20/func,view/catid,16/id,3535/lang,english/#4973 work as a basic intro to "Beyond Stepconf"?
[22:40:47] <elmo40> what is that character in ascii terms? I use en_US keyboard, $ is default currency ;)
[22:41:13] <andypugh> I am not sure.
[22:42:36] <andypugh> 156 (0x9C)
[22:44:03] <elmo40> £ British Pound 0163
[22:44:23] <andypugh> In any case, the EMC forum hates them.
[22:46:28] <elmo40> I guess Pidgin doesn't like that. every time I try it doesn't type anything :(
[23:34:39] <pcw_home> Ive been bitten by the forum posting often enough that I edit with a local editor and copy&paste the text
[23:35:44] <pcw_home> The other nice one is if you take too long typing, the post fails with "invalid format" or some such
[23:36:03] <andypugh> Yes. I hope we didn't pay much for it.
[23:36:30] <andypugh> pcw_home: How to home a drive that adds it's own phase lead?
[23:38:55] <pcw_home> Just subtract the 90 degree offset
[23:40:23] <pcw_home> the +- 90 degree offset is between your reference angle and the stator field angle
[23:41:12] <andypugh> Aye, but the bldc driver has no way to know what drive is attached..
[23:41:40] <andypugh> And it is not unambiguous whether it is +90 or -90
[23:42:40] <pcw_home> It is unambiguous
[23:46:02] <pcw_home> All we had to do to get our RUN program that runs any BLDC to work with the SSLBP was subtract the offset
[23:46:03] <pcw_home> It used to do direct serial comms and used ID for setup then IQ for run, since we only had IQ now with SSLBP we needed to do the offset
[23:46:05] <pcw_home> when determining rotor position
[23:48:57] <andypugh> I suspect I have other issues too. (many of them).
[23:49:25] <andypugh> But I have ben running an actual servo in servo mode from the 8i20 today.
[23:50:18] <pcw_home> It looks like we set the angle to 90 degrees and positive torque to define rotor position (0 degrees)
[23:51:27] <pcw_home> Well thats a big accomplishment Is this with your resolver interface?
[23:52:38] <andypugh> Yes. With the rather noisy Resolver interface, which introduces problems of its own.
[23:54:43] <pcw_home> Yes the disadvantage of arctan resolver interfaces is noise A tracking filter can get rid of lots of noise
[23:56:50] <andypugh> I think I was about to invent a tracking filter from first principles.
[23:57:08] <andypugh> Perhaps now I have heard the term I can just use one.
[23:57:40] <pcw_home> You phase lock a second order integrator (velocitym position) to the angle but with variable gain so
[23:57:41] <pcw_home> acceleration noise is filtered out, the tracking filter only needs enough bandwidth to track acceleration
[23:58:24] <andypugh> Yes, that was what I was about to invent :-). The plan was to sort-of model inertia
[23:59:24] <pcw_home> Yep that how most resolver interfaces seem to work (and what I used in the 7I49 firmware)