#emc | Logs for 2010-09-27

[00:49:06] <WalterN> does mach3 cross over to emc easily?
[01:26:22] <Jymmm> WalterN: what do you mean?
[01:27:12] <WalterN> Jymmm: I mean if components are set up or "designed" to be used with mach3
[01:27:26] <WalterN> http://www.dmm-tech.com/Products.html
[01:28:16] <WalterN> they dont really mention how communication works other than it works with mach3
[01:30:20] <Jymmm> *sigh* They're using USB to steal 5VDC - I hate when they do that shit.
[01:30:29] <WalterN> heh
[01:30:48] <Jymmm> You have +48, add a $0.25 regulator
[01:31:00] <WalterN> thats what I was thinking, 'what a hokey way to do that'
[01:31:07] <Jymmm> It's probably cheaper than the usb cable or connector!?
[01:32:41] <WalterN> http://www.dmm-tech.com/Pricing.html
[01:33:14] <WalterN> I think that motor will work well for me
[01:33:21] <WalterN> the 'high torque' one
[01:47:34] <WalterN> hmm
[01:47:57] <WalterN> it probably wouldent be a good idea to go with the kit anyway
[02:23:52] <SWPadnos_> SWPadnos_ is now known as SWPadnos
[06:03:33] <KimK> !later skunkworks (sent via !later) Hi Sam, sorry I missed you, nice Y axis pics, Sam Sr. has been busy! Re your pix: http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/yaxis/adaptfinal.JPG You said the internal "splines" fit over a gear, OK, but what are the series of very fine cuts around the outside? And on two (slightly) different diameters? Just curious.
[06:36:51] <MattyMatt> WalterN, all "mach3" hardware can be used with emc2 afaik. you'd have to set it all up but it's all standard servo kit
[06:37:15] <WalterN> MattyMatt: what do you think of that "kit"?
[06:37:29] <MattyMatt> looks expensive to me
[06:37:43] <WalterN> there is something better?
[06:37:49] <MattyMatt> at first glance, it's a lot of kit
[06:38:20] <WalterN> I dont really care if its a kit of not, to be honest
[06:38:36] <MattyMatt> I go for the low-rent kit :) I found a place in south korea that has nice cheap motors and psus
[06:38:55] <WalterN> but that 'high torque' motor seems like what I would want
[06:39:07] <MattyMatt> and I'd spend a week or two bidding low on nice used ones on fleabay first
[06:39:09] <WalterN> ran though some numbers
[06:39:21] <WalterN> wait, what?
[06:41:44] <WalterN> where are those korean things to be found?
[06:42:42] <MattyMatt> trying to find it in my history now :)
[06:47:34] <Valen> mesa doesnt work with mach does it?
[06:49:57] <MattyMatt> * MattyMatt wouldn't know
[06:51:45] <MattyMatt> WalterN: this looked like a good place just for the PSU
[06:51:48] <MattyMatt> http://www.sureelectronics.net/category.php?id=24
[06:53:53] <WalterN> hmm
[06:57:35] <MattyMatt> aha http://www.longs-motor.com/products.asp?id=75
[06:59:41] <WalterN> ugh, cant read any of that :/
[07:00:52] <MattyMatt> click on the pictures :)
[07:01:33] <WalterN> these are all stepper motors?
[07:02:05] <MattyMatt> there's no prices on the site I've noticed, but they'll give you a good quote in English
[07:02:37] <WalterN> I want servos :/
[07:03:06] <MattyMatt> half way down the products page is the servos. this one looks like the same size as that kit http://www.longs-motor.com/ProductsView.asp?id=196&pid=75
[07:07:11] <MattyMatt> they are very good company apparently, but I confess I prefer to see the price of everything upfront so I can let price influence my other decisions
[07:07:15] <WalterN> the one I was looking at was 1000PRM and 900 peek watts
[07:07:37] <WalterN> in the kit, "high torque"
[07:07:45] <MattyMatt> all my motors came off ebay
[07:08:10] <MattyMatt> motors either work or they don't :)
[07:09:00] <MattyMatt> OK, the magnets could be a bit cooked in an abused one, and the bearings may be worn out, but they can be replaced
[07:09:25] <WalterN> hmm
[07:09:58] <WalterN> 1lb that one is
[07:10:12] <WalterN> 400 watts it seems is the highest output of them
[07:10:17] <WalterN> 440
[07:10:20] <MattyMatt> my strategy is getting it working at minimal cost, and then upgrade where needed
[07:10:43] <WalterN> I suppose that would work too..
[07:10:56] <WalterN> but at 3000 RPM I would need hear reduction
[07:11:33] <MattyMatt> if you want a 1000RPM, maybe you want a 5phase stepper?
[07:11:35] <WalterN> assuming a few things
[07:12:15] <WalterN> heh, I've worked with stepper motor based CNC mills, I wont put myself though making garbage
[07:13:03] <WalterN> hmm
[07:13:11] <MattyMatt> 5phase are a different league. 500 PPR natural, and they go up to 3000RPM before they lose all their torque
[07:13:27] <WalterN> 3000rpm might not be so bad really
[07:33:35] <MattyMatt> you generally want gearing with servos anyway, don't you? to get low speed torque when you need it
[07:35:20] <MattyMatt> I have no experience of big servos, I have no idea how good they are in the 1000RPM region
[07:35:59] <MattyMatt> and no hands on experience of 5ph stepper either, but I've been studying them closely :)
[07:36:25] <MattyMatt> they are what I'd like on my mill
[08:21:21] <WalterN> MattyMatt: I would think it depends on the lead screw
[08:22:08] <WalterN> but, lets say the lead screw is 5thread/inch.. at 1000 PRM with direct coupling, thats 200IPM rapids
[08:22:30] <Valen> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?JakeAndRussells
[08:22:33] <WalterN> PRM/RPM
[08:22:36] <Valen> direct drive "servo"s
[08:22:44] <Valen> where servo is a 400W scooter motor
[08:23:08] <WalterN> cute
[08:23:22] <Valen> cute cute????
[08:23:30] <WalterN> hehe
[08:23:33] <Valen> geez you'll be calling me pretty next
[08:23:59] <WalterN> its hard to tell the scale..
[08:24:26] <Valen> 750mm X travel
[08:24:38] <Valen> if you click the link you get high res
[08:24:49] <WalterN> right, thats what I'm looking at
[08:25:04] <WalterN> 30"?
[08:25:21] <WalterN> bigger than it seems
[08:26:33] <Valen> about that yeah
[09:21:44] <alex_joni> Valen: the dolfins are cute
[09:25:14] <psha> how may I report latency test results? mail to emc-users? or maybe here?
[09:26:12] <pjm__> psha there is a chart at http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Latency-Test where u can add your system info + the test results
[09:26:48] <psha> page is read only :(
[09:26:56] <psha> This page is read-only | View other revisions
[09:27:19] <pjm__> did u follow http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?BasicSteps ?
[09:27:55] <psha> your link have such footer :) if cgi-bin is removed - only 'page is read-only' :)
[09:27:56] <pjm__> "Because of wiki-spamming bots, this wiki now requires that you log in before editing pages. Anyone can log in. You don't have to register or anything." etc
[09:28:06] <psha> check link without cgi-bin
[09:28:19] <psha> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?Latency-Test
[09:29:11] <psha> nice, i'll add results for D510MO in the evening
[09:29:18] <psha> nice board
[09:29:25] <pjm__> ah is that the mini-ITX one?
[09:29:29] <psha> yes
[09:30:09] <psha> ~10us jitter
[09:30:16] <psha> with 2.6.28
[09:30:21] <psha> 2.6.32 not tested yet
[09:31:26] <pjm__> thats not bad at all
[09:31:41] <pjm__> are u using software step-gen ?
[09:32:42] <psha> yes
[09:36:06] <psha> this board has passive cooling and chipset with pretty low tdp
[09:36:42] <psha> previous intel atom boards have cooler on chipset
[09:37:45] <psha> and it's pretty cheap :)
[10:36:12] <alex_joni> psha: SMP?
[10:38:39] <psha> smp
[10:38:55] <psha> 2 cores
[10:55:27] <MattyMatt> that's a very nice looking board for the price on newegg. shame they don't ship here
[11:53:10] <Fox_Muldr> i try to start the ubuntu 10.04 live cd on an pc but as soon as i try to start the latency test i get an error about "permission denied" when loading the rtai_hal module. when i try the same in a virtual machine it works without problems. what could be the culprit for the problem?
[12:00:45] <Fox_Muldr> ok the exact words are "-1 operation not permitted"
[12:06:29] <psha> how are you running test?
[12:08:45] <Fox_Muldr> i just try to start the latency-test application
[12:09:16] <Fox_Muldr> but it never starts but gives these errors in the console. now i try to start with acpi=off noapic nolapic. maybe this helps
[12:10:03] <Fox_Muldr> it is an old mini-itx system with an via cpu
[12:10:05] <psha> live cd from emc site?
[12:10:11] <Fox_Muldr> yes
[12:10:21] <psha> look into dmesg
[12:10:40] <Fox_Muldr> with ubuntu 8.04 it runs good after disabling all power management functions
[12:11:06] <Fox_Muldr> i will take a look after it booted up and i tried it again :)
[12:13:18] <Fox_Muldr> hmm with all three options activated at boot it doesn't even start and runs into a kernel panic. sadly i can't see the displayed message because while booting it uses a resolution my old tft doesn't display
[12:13:42] <psha> 640x480?
[12:13:48] <Fox_Muldr> so i will try it again with default bootparams and take alook in dmesg
[12:13:52] <psha> add vga=none
[12:14:06] <psha> or something like it )
[12:14:10] <Fox_Muldr> i think so but don't know. my ftf only shows that i should switch the resolution to display it ;
[12:14:17] <Fox_Muldr> ftf=tft
[12:14:30] <Fox_Muldr> oh that's a good idea :)
[12:15:11] <alex_joni> Fox_Muldr: check dmesg
[12:15:24] <psha> http://wiki.antlinux.com/pmwiki.php?n=HowTos.VgaModes
[12:15:30] <psha> Fox_Muldr: pick correct settings from here
[12:15:35] <alex_joni> there are 2 reasons for this usually: the latency test complains about no local apic
[12:15:48] <alex_joni> LOCAL APIC CONFIGURED BUT NOT DETECTED (or somehting like that)
[12:16:10] <alex_joni> so there are 2 cases: you chave an LAPIC, then you can enable it by adding 'lapic' to the bootparams
[12:16:27] <alex_joni> or your system doesn't have a LAPIC, in which case you can't do anything about it :/
[12:27:45] <MOGLI12> i want to use linear encoders with servo for better accuracy, i read on wiki about using 5I20 MESA card but i dint found any HAL or INI FILE..
[12:32:58] <Fox_Muldr> now when i try to start even without extra parameters it runs either into a kernel panic or it seems to boot up fine but the screen stays black even the system is not frozen. i think i will stay for the moment at my ubuntu 8.04 and try again when i have more time for this. the only reason to try the 10.04 was because i have opnegl display errors in axis with 8.04 and hoped to solve this with the newer ver
[12:32:58] <Fox_Muldr> sion. but maybe i should instead find out why there are errors in the 3d view
[12:35:35] <mk0> from what source do you boot ubuntu?
[12:35:44] <mk0> cd, алфыр,
[12:35:48] <mk0> flash
[12:36:00] <Fox_Muldr> my ols 8.04 is installed on the harddisk and the 10.04 booted from the live cd to test it
[12:36:26] <mk0> live CD? or from usb-flash e.g?
[12:36:37] <Fox_Muldr> cd
[12:36:43] <mk0> maybe cd is bad
[12:36:50] <Fox_Muldr> no i tested it before
[12:36:55] <mk0> try to boot live 10.04 from flash
[12:37:21] <mk0> how did you test it?
[12:37:26] <mk0> erhhhhh
[12:37:44] <Fox_Muldr> i tested it after burning with verify option from nero which does a byte to byte verify
[12:38:16] <mk0> i had different read errors even after soft was saying cd is okay.
[12:38:35] <mk0> after running from usb stick it worked fine.
[12:38:52] <Fox_Muldr> i had never any errors after verify said it is ok. :)
[12:38:58] <mk0> just try or write cd with slower speed
[12:39:23] <MOGLI12> anybody knows abt linear encoders with servo configurations file and pin diagram etc?? can i use it with MESA 7I43
[12:39:25] <MOGLI12> ??
[12:39:30] <Fox_Muldr> i did write it with slower speed to prevent problems (8x) :)
[12:40:19] <Fox_Muldr> when i want to try to boot it from usb what filesystem should the usb stick be formated to and should i just copy all files from thelivecd to the usb stick?
[12:40:21] <mk0> anyways i would try writing usb stick not cd
[12:44:42] <mk0> cd is an atavism together with floppy ))
[12:57:26] <psha> mk0: how you've booted livecd from flash?
[12:58:11] <psha> my board complains when i've tried to write iso direct to partition
[12:58:28] <Fox_Muldr> same thing is what i need to know to test this variant :)
[12:58:33] <mk0> nope.
[12:58:41] <psha> i've added small partition with grub
[12:58:50] <psha> but it seem to be too difficult :)
[12:58:57] <mk0> well,
[12:59:03] <archivist> iso is for a cd rom not a partition on a disk
[12:59:30] <psha> archivist: iso is booting just fine if tell grub where to find vmlinuz
[13:00:08] <psha> but maybe there is more elegant solution?
[13:00:25] <Fox_Muldr> maybe a howto for live-cd on usb-stick booting in the wiki would be good :)
[13:00:45] <mk0> yep, i'm writing a short instruction ) do not hurry )
[13:02:23] <Fox_Muldr> at the moment i even revived my old 1gb usb stick where the usb port was ripped off for this purpose. gladly the solder pads were not riped off too so i could resolder it to the pcb ;)
[13:02:45] <Fox_Muldr> and now it works again. ready for some nice emc2 booting tests
[13:03:02] <mk0> if you have winxp you can download ultraiso from offsite. this program has one very useful feature: menu "Bootable" -> Write disk Image. it will write the image to usb stick and all you'll have to do is to set appropriate option in bios to boot from usb.
[13:03:37] <mk0> very simple
[13:04:20] <Fox_Muldr> i use ultraiso since a longer time now :)
[13:04:32] <Fox_Muldr> i will try this immediate
[13:05:57] <mk0> any nasty Windows will suit, not necessarily XP)
[13:06:37] <the_wench> skunkworks: KimK said (sent via !later) Hi Sam, sorry I missed you, nice Y axis pics, Sam Sr. has been busy! Re your pix: http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/yaxis/adaptfinal.JPG You said the internal "splines" fit over a gear, OK, but what are the series of very fine cuts around the outside? And on two (slightly) different diameters? Just curious.
[13:07:51] <skunkworks> KimK: the stock we used was some old knobs. We never machined the outside
[13:15:45] <psha> mk0: not suitable for linux-only systems :)
[13:17:15] <mk0> yep! i know. but it seems there're no linux-only systems (almost of course). you can run wine or even vmware. or install win as a second.
[13:18:02] <mk0> this is just a most easy and effective way.
[13:18:41] <psha> maybe... but maybe running mkfs.ext2 && grub-install is not too hard :)
[13:19:11] <psha> since I've no win at all (
[13:25:18] <Fox_Muldr> mk0: when i try to do "write disc image" ultraiso hangs for about a minute and than it displays the write dialog. but when i click write it says "can't access device". so it's no working way for me. maybe it has problems with win7
[13:26:04] <psha> Fox_Muldr: do you have active linux system somewhere near?
[13:26:11] <psha> maybe mine recipe will work :)
[13:26:17] <Fox_Muldr> yes
[13:26:29] <mk0> holy moses it's unbelievable )
[13:26:44] <psha> so here it is, create two partitions on flash
[13:26:57] <psha> first, small, i have 50mb
[13:27:00] <psha> active
[13:27:06] <mk0> did you choose appropriate device? did you format it first?
[13:27:07] <psha> (with boot flag set)
[13:27:27] <Fox_Muldr> mk0: yes, yes
[13:27:37] <Fox_Muldr> psha: ok i will partition it now
[13:28:08] <mk0> you're awesome. maybe viruses?
[13:28:08] <psha> then run grub-install --root-directory=path-to-mounted-partition install-device-where to install-it
[13:30:14] <psha> and place grub.cfg file in boot/grub/
[13:30:22] <psha> grub.cfg i'll give you later
[13:30:39] <psha> after all write iso image into second partition (raw)
[13:30:52] <psha> e.g dd if=ubuntu.iso of=/dev/sdc2 bs=1M
[13:31:20] <psha> btw if you use grub1 config file is menu.lst
[13:31:22] <psha> not grub.cfg
[13:35:28] <Fox_Muldr> psha: ok partitions created. now doing grub install. the "path-to-mounted-partition" is where i mounted the iso image?
[13:36:19] <Fox_Muldr> hmm no not really
[13:37:15] <psha> no
[13:37:21] <psha> mount small partitions somewhere
[13:37:29] <psha> e.g small (boot) partition is /dev/sdc2
[13:37:37] <psha> so mount it on /mnt/tmp
[13:37:40] <Fox_Muldr> ah ok the small partition from the usb stick
[13:37:45] <Fox_Muldr> ?
[13:37:47] <psha> grub-install --root-directory=/mnt/tmp /dev/sdc
[13:38:20] <psha> after this command you'll get boot directory in /mnt/tmp
[13:38:55] <psha> done?
[13:39:30] <Fox_Muldr> i'm a bit confused about what you mean by "small partitions" on /dev/sdc2. i have /dev/uvba1 (50mb on usb stick) and /dev/uba2 (~1gb on usb stick)
[13:40:01] <psha> so mount /dev/uvba1 somewhere
[13:40:02] <Fox_Muldr> should i mount /dev/uba1 on /mnt/tnp?
[13:40:04] <psha> yes
[13:40:07] <Fox_Muldr> ah ok
[13:40:40] <Fox_Muldr> ah hehe little problem. i don't format the partitions. what filesystem should i format it?
[13:40:47] <Fox_Muldr> ext3 reiser?
[13:40:56] <psha> ext2 )
[13:40:58] <Fox_Muldr> ok
[13:41:03] <psha> mke2fs -L boot /dev/uvba1
[13:41:16] <psha> ext3 has journal that is not needed here
[13:41:19] <Fox_Muldr> ok
[13:41:28] <Fox_Muldr> now mounted
[13:41:33] <psha> run grub-install
[13:41:40] <Fox_Muldr> now i can grub install
[13:42:11] <Fox_Muldr> in the command grub-install the last device which you called /dev/sdc is /dev/uba for me?
[13:42:18] <psha> yes
[13:42:20] <Fox_Muldr> ok
[13:42:25] <psha> btw what is your distro?
[13:42:40] <Fox_Muldr> suse 11.1 and my usb stick is /dev/uba
[13:42:58] <psha> hm, suse has some strange udev rules to name usb disks )
[13:43:22] <psha> so run grub-install --root-directory /mnt/tmp /dev/uba
[13:43:25] <Fox_Muldr> /dev/uba is usb stick and this is what i have to use in the command, right? :)
[13:43:27] <Fox_Muldr> ok
[13:43:57] <psha> by default all 'scsi-like' devices are named as sd* so that's why i'm bit confused )
[13:44:18] <Fox_Muldr> ok its done
[13:44:28] <Fox_Muldr> yea my harddisks are sd* but usb not ;)
[13:44:38] <psha> are there boot dir?
[13:44:41] <psha> is..
[13:44:55] <Fox_Muldr> on /dev/uba1 or uba2 ?
[13:45:00] <psha> uba1
[13:45:03] <psha> in mounted dir
[13:45:21] <Fox_Muldr> hmm not really
[13:45:46] <psha> have you mounted it?
[13:45:57] <Fox_Muldr> but it said that it installed /boot/grub/menu.lst and other files correctly
[13:46:38] <Fox_Muldr> yes i mountred it in /mnt/backup (dir existed so i used this) and run grub-install --root-directory
[13:46:45] <Fox_Muldr> args i mean grub-install --root-directory /mnt/backup/ /dev/uba
[13:46:52] <psha> maybe = is needed between root-directory and /mnt/backup...
[13:47:05] <Fox_Muldr> i try again :)
[13:47:42] <psha> it's needed
[13:49:10] <Fox_Muldr> hmm same messages and no boot dir :/
[13:50:38] <psha> pretty strange :) since grub-install is shell script you may run it with sh -x and look where it really installs files
[13:52:29] <mk0> something's wrong with hands.dll )
[13:53:02] <Fox_Muldr> psha: seems that grub-install ignors the --root-directory= line and does things on my local /boot dir :(
[13:53:58] <psha> check menu.lst for corruptions
[13:54:12] <Fox_Muldr> you mean my local one?
[13:54:23] <psha> yes, since it ignores --root-dir
[13:54:38] <psha> you may do it by hand
[13:54:47] <psha> mkdir -p /mnt/backup/boot/grub
[13:54:57] <psha> cp -a /boot/grub/* /mnt/backup/boot/grub/
[13:55:51] <Fox_Muldr> my local menu.-lst is ok
[13:56:09] <psha> fine )
[13:56:16] <psha> copy grub files to /mnt/backup
[13:56:21] <psha> and fix menu.lst
[13:56:30] <Fox_Muldr> ok copied them
[13:56:47] <psha> add menu.lst entry for EMC
[13:57:34] <psha> root (hd0,2)
[13:57:41] <Fox_Muldr> hmm what yre the right menu.lst entries for this? i never edited the entries, only the parameters in it
[13:58:10] <psha> linux /casper/vmlinuz file=/cdrom/preseed/ubuntu.seed boot=casper only-ubiquity initrd=/casper/initrd.lz --
[13:58:15] <psha> initrd /casper/initrd.lz
[13:58:35] <Fox_Muldr> ok tnx
[13:58:37] <psha> here are three "data" lines
[13:58:46] <Fox_Muldr> root, kernel and initrd
[13:58:58] <psha> yes, fit them to menu.lst syntax
[13:59:04] <psha> i'm writing them from my head
[13:59:10] <psha> since flash is running latency test
[13:59:27] <psha> hm
[13:59:27] <psha> sorry
[13:59:38] <psha> drop only-ubiquity line
[14:00:00] <psha> option
[14:00:03] <Fox_Muldr> ok
[14:00:10] <psha> linux /casper/vmlinuz file=/cdrom/preseed/ubuntu.seed boot=casper initrd=/casper/initrd.lz --
[14:00:21] <Fox_Muldr> it looks like yours now
[14:00:28] <psha> notice that initrd has .lz suffix, not gz!
[14:00:35] <Fox_Muldr> ok
[14:00:40] <psha> 8.04 has gz
[14:00:58] <psha> so here you have menu item for booting emc iso in live-cd mode
[14:01:07] <psha> write iso into second partition
[14:01:09] <psha> with dd
[14:01:29] <Fox_Muldr> all other files in the grub dir from my local install could be used without modification?
[14:01:36] <psha> dd if=ubuntu-10.04..... of=/dev/uba2 bs=1M
[14:01:47] <psha> yes
[14:01:51] <Fox_Muldr> ok
[14:01:54] <psha> menu.lst is only configuration file for grub
[14:02:13] <psha> beware that it will change for grub2
[14:02:24] <psha> somewhere it the future suse will switch to it )
[14:02:53] <Fox_Muldr> now writing image to uba2
[14:05:29] <Fox_Muldr> ok finished
[14:05:56] <Fox_Muldr> now i could try to boot from the usb stick or anything else needed?
[14:06:38] <psha> i hope it's all
[14:06:52] <psha> check that /dev/uba1 has boot flag enabled
[14:07:03] <Fox_Muldr> than i will try it in a vmware where i know that it could boot from usb :)
[14:07:15] <psha> wise )
[14:07:45] <psha> if grub is installed then you'll see grub menu
[14:07:54] <Fox_Muldr> yeah it is marked bootable
[14:07:54] <psha> if you don't see it then something bad happened during grub-install
[14:11:29] <Fox_Muldr> hmm maybe vmware doesn't support usb-boot. at least i can't see that boot device in the virtual bios
[14:12:07] <Fox_Muldr> or the freeware vmware player has less options than the not free vmware workstation :/
[14:12:42] <psha> try to fake it, give /dev/uba as file
[14:13:27] <Fox_Muldr> i use it in windows so i can't access /dev/uba in my vmware ;)
[14:15:17] <Fox_Muldr> ok i will try it on my real pc later on. but now it's time for eating something. thanks for all the help so far :)
[14:15:29] <psha> )
[14:15:39] <psha> hope it'll help you
[14:15:51] <Fox_Muldr> i hope too ;)
[14:21:09] <mk0> )) you guys like difficulties!
[14:27:17] <psha> it's known as "irc shell" )
[16:05:06] <Jymmm> seb_kuzminsky: You old dawg you, how the hell are ya!
[16:46:25] <Fox_Muldr> psha: right now i tried to boot from usb stick on my mini-itx board. but sadly it can only boot from usb-fdd, usb-cdrom, usb-zip and usb-hdd but not from usb-stick
[16:47:39] <Fox_Muldr> so i think i should try and fix the display errors in the opengl 3d views instead.
[16:48:04] <psha> how it distingish between usb-hdd and usb-stick? )
[16:48:12] <IchGuckLive> hi all in the USA from Misty Germany
[16:48:14] <cpresser> usb-hdd should(TM) behave lika a usb-stick
[16:48:30] <psha> since they all are USB mass storage class
[16:48:41] <Fox_Muldr> psha: don't know but i tried all four variants and it always said no operation system
[16:48:51] <psha> sad :(
[16:49:03] <cpresser> then maybe there was no bootsector on the stick :)
[16:49:11] <psha> no operation system or no device?
[16:49:21] <cpresser> did you try using http://unetbootin.sourceforge.net/
[16:49:22] <Jymmm> Fox_Muldr: You didn't build the stick correctly
[16:49:24] <psha> maybe grub-install failed not only to copy files but to install boot sector?
[16:49:43] <Fox_Muldr> device was attached and first partition is bootable and grub is installed. so i don't know what is the problem
[16:50:06] <Jymmm> Fox_Muldr: and how did you do that>
[16:50:06] <Fox_Muldr> psha: grub-install didn't work at all. so i copied the files by hand you remember?
[16:50:18] <Jymmm> Fox_Muldr: again, You didn't build the stick correctly
[16:50:23] <psha> grub-install does two things: copy files and then install bs
[16:50:26] <Fox_Muldr> psha: maybe you are right. the copy only did not create the mbr i think...
[16:50:47] <Fox_Muldr> psha: so i have to create the mbr by hand without grub-install
[16:50:51] <psha> there is way to call grub directly but i can not help you since debian ships grub2
[16:51:12] <psha> but i may roll archive with my boot partition :)
[16:51:33] <Fox_Muldr> psh: i could also do the steps with ubuntu 10.04 wuhich i use in a vmware
[16:51:35] <psha> several mb's i estimate
[16:51:44] <psha> wait a bit
[16:51:59] <Jymmm> Fox_Muldr: jusr use unnetbootin
[16:51:59] <Fox_Muldr> psha: i can start this vm and attach my usb stick to it tha i have access to it natively
[16:52:04] <Jymmm> Fox_Muldr: just use unnetbootin
[16:52:15] <Fox_Muldr> Jymmm: whats that now? :)
[16:52:32] <Jymmm> Fox_Muldr: scroll up to what cpresser said
[16:53:03] <IchGuckLive> is it posible to run the EMC distro on a usb Stick ?
[16:53:08] <Fox_Muldr> ah ok i will try it after i retry the actual solution with grub bootsektor again :)
[16:53:21] <Jymmm> Fox_Muldr: No, do it now!
[16:53:22] <Fox_Muldr> IchGuckLive: seems so. or at least i try to get it running with help
[16:53:57] <IchGuckLive> please write a note to eiki if it is in full funktion
[16:54:10] <IchGuckLive> wiki
[16:54:12] <Fox_Muldr> Jymmm: why not first try the first solution. i spent quite some time ago with help of psha to get it going :)
[16:54:37] <Jymmm> Fox_Muldr: because unetbootin works for sure
[16:54:48] <Fox_Muldr> Jymmm: if it doesn't work even after i redo the bootsektor tha i can try your version
[16:54:55] <Jymmm> or you could just use the built in utility for creating a bootstick
[16:55:08] <Fox_Muldr> which built in utility??
[16:55:08] <Jymmm> Fox_Muldr: KISS
[16:55:14] <psha> Fox_Muldr: unfortunately we are using different versions of grub :( and diffirencies are quiet large (
[16:55:32] <Fox_Muldr> psha: which version does ubuntu 10.04 use?
[16:55:37] <IchGuckLive> Hardy grub Lucid grub2
[16:55:53] <cpresser> there are quite a few things one can screw up on. so you should try an easy solution first, and make sure booting itself works finde
[16:56:02] <cpresser> than try everything else fancy :)
[16:56:03] <IchGuckLive> also the key have changed for startup
[16:56:10] <Fox_Muldr> i don't know of these names. just give me a version number ;)
[16:56:36] <IchGuckLive> on labtop i woudt go with NOAPIC
[16:56:53] <psha> Fox_Muldr: dunno, maybe 2 since it closely follows debian testing
[16:56:55] <IchGuckLive> just hit F6 then check
[17:01:16] <psha> Fox_Muldr: try to dd image to the stick
[17:01:40] <psha> it has boot sector && configured both for 8.04 and 10.04 live cd's
[17:03:17] <psha> maybe it's most simple/cross platform solution to just bake small configured "prefix" image
[17:04:16] <Fox_Muldr> psha: grub-install in ubuntu 10.04 respects the --root-directory parameter and copied a few more files to the grub dir and hopefully also a bootsektor to the partition. i will try it and after that i try another way ;)
[17:04:54] <psha> but it uses grub.cfg instead of menu.lst :)
[17:05:47] <IchGuckLive> QUEST is there a axis config for a XYUV mashine ?
[17:06:11] <IchGuckLive> so i can see both path
[17:07:34] <psha> Fox_Muldr: messaged grub.cfg in private not to spam channel
[17:07:37] <psha> first entry is for 8.04, second for 10.04
[17:08:14] <Fox_Muldr> psha: now i got a bash like grub screen when booting from usb stick :)
[17:08:25] <Fox_Muldr> psha: so bootsektor was missing
[17:12:31] <psha> grub.cfg was missing
[17:12:50] <Fox_Muldr> yeah i couldn't boot anything ;)
[17:13:00] <Fox_Muldr> i'm copying it now to the stick
[17:16:32] <alex_joni> IchGuckLive: not really
[17:16:58] <IchGuckLive> alex_joni: sad
[17:18:23] <IchGuckLive> i want to run the Styro cutter with axis
[17:18:31] <psha> Fox_Muldr: any success?
[17:19:26] <Fox_Muldr> psha: all finished copying and now i run downstairs to my cnc pc and try it ;)
[17:20:52] <alex_joni> IchGuckLive: I understand that, but I don't really see why both paths would help
[17:21:58] <IchGuckLive> the airfoil has a different path on xy to uv
[17:22:56] <alex_joni> IchGuckLive: I know, but I find it hard that you can "see" things
[17:23:09] <psha> sadly 8.04 kernel has better results in latency test then 10.04 on Intel D510MO :(
[17:23:39] <skunkworks> how much better?
[17:23:48] <skunkworks> what vs what?
[17:24:09] <IchGuckLive> ok i will try it and then report
[17:24:59] <psha> ~10 us vs ~20 us
[17:25:09] <psha> trying with disabled KMS
[17:26:06] <Fox_Muldr> psha: it says loading kernel... loading initrd... but it seems extreme slow because from the first to the second line it needed about 1 minute and now it stays at initrd and the usb stick led is blinking like hell. seems that the usb access from the bios is very slow
[17:26:20] <psha> it's ok
[17:26:28] <psha> it's really loading initrd :)
[17:26:39] <psha> and on slow flash it may take time
[17:26:50] <Fox_Muldr> psha: seems so. i will wait what comes next :)
[17:27:19] <psha> i'm running from fast SD card on modern board and it still takes time to load kernel/initrd
[17:28:08] <psha> also some servers take a long time to load initrd from fast hard drives
[17:28:16] <psha> don't know why...
[17:28:43] <skunkworks> I got better latency on 10.04 on a atom 330. iirc
[17:28:50] <Fox_Muldr> psha: as we talked it has loadedit completely to the desktop :)
[17:28:59] <psha> nice
[17:29:07] <Fox_Muldr> psha: so the usb boot version works
[17:29:45] <psha> skunkworks: with disabled KMS it is ~10us but test is running only for half an hour
[17:30:03] <skunkworks> kms?
[17:30:15] <psha> Fox_Muldr: it was hard way :) but gives you a brief introduction in how boot process is working :)
[17:30:25] <Fox_Muldr> psha: but the initial problem stays the same. i can't run the latency test because of not working rtai. it says that loading of rtai_hal is not permitted. so it was no corrupted cd. at least this i can say :)
[17:30:34] <psha> skunkworks: kernel mode settings, feature of recent kernels and supported (intel, radeon) video cards
[17:30:49] <psha> Fox_Muldr: look in dmesg
[17:30:53] <Fox_Muldr> psha: maybe this usb-stick booting procedure is worth to meantion in the wiki :)
[17:31:08] <skunkworks> interesting. psha: you could also try isolcpu
[17:31:12] <Fox_Muldr> psha: i will take a look in dmesg
[17:31:34] <psha> skunkworks: isolcpus=1
[17:32:42] <skunkworks> ah
[17:33:04] <Fox_Muldr> psha: dmesg: LOCAL APIC CONFIGURED BUT NOT AVAILABLE/ENABLED... i think i remember something about this problem from the mailing list
[17:33:52] <psha> alex_joni mentioned it earlier
[17:34:26] <JT-Work_> JT-Work_ is now known as JT-Work
[17:36:17] <alex_joni> Fox_Muldr: add lapic to the boot params
[17:39:48] <psha> skunkworks: max jutter spike near ~22us :(
[17:40:15] <psha> Fox_Muldr: with grub you may copy block and add desired parameters to it
[17:40:24] <psha> Fox_Muldr: so you don't need to remember them all )
[17:44:59] <Fox_Muldr> psha: should i just add "lapic" to the kernbel start parameters in menu.lst and/or grub.cfg?
[17:46:26] <psha> grub.cfg
[17:46:30] <psha> mebu.lst is from first grub
[17:46:40] <Fox_Muldr> psha: so i can delete menu.lst?
[17:46:49] <psha> also you always may edit parameters in boot menu by pressing e
[17:46:51] <psha> yes
[17:47:01] <Fox_Muldr> psha: ok i try it :)
[17:50:36] <psha> skunkworks: is 20us max jutter too bad?
[17:50:52] <psha> for software stepper
[17:56:24] <psha> Fox_Muldr: sorry for hard way but for me it was obvious since i've used grub a lot :)
[17:56:36] <psha> Fox_Muldr: glad it's working
[18:01:52] <Fox_Muldr> psha: hmm i added "lapic" to the kernel parameter but when i try latency-test i got the same errror message about local apic configured but not available
[18:01:52] <psha> here i can not help you since my knowlege of emc2 is near zero :)
[18:01:52] <Fox_Muldr> can i verify that the kernel really used this parameter or is there another way of correcting this local apic thing?
[18:02:11] <psha> look in dmesg and in /proc/cmdline
[18:02:36] <skunkworks> 20us isn't that bad. depends on how fast a step generation you need.
[18:03:32] <skunkworks> psha: are you using the closed source video drivers?
[18:03:53] <psha> no, intel has no closed drivers, except gma500
[18:04:20] <psha> i'll try to run X with vesa driver and test again
[18:04:42] <psha> i think that all i need is to blacklist i915
[18:04:55] <psha> so it would not be loaded at all
[18:06:06] <Fox_Muldr> psha: cmdline says that i have lapic as parameter. does it matter if lapic is before or after the last "--" in the kernel start line ?
[18:06:39] <psha> as i remember it matters
[18:06:47] <psha> params after -- are fed into init
[18:07:02] <Fox_Muldr> psha: i have it before them at the moment
[18:07:55] <psha> check dmesg for lines with apic
[18:07:58] <psha> dmesg | grep -i apic
[18:08:47] <Fox_Muldr> ok i check. and for what should i look especially?
[18:09:15] <Fox_Muldr> i mean what apic message is relevant or not? or just all error messages ;)
[18:09:44] <psha> all ) since i don't know what to look for
[18:09:51] <Fox_Muldr> hehe ok
[18:25:42] <Fox_Muldr> psha: there are a few apic messages within which doesn't sound as if it were wroking. i paste them in query
[18:27:31] <psha> as you may see it complains about 'no or disabled' lapic
[18:28:12] <Fox_Muldr> psha: isn't is possible to disable this apic thingy completele and work without it?
[18:28:42] <psha> i don't know :) alex_joni maybe know something
[18:28:53] <psha> or other emc2 gurus
[18:29:17] <psha> i'm playing with emc only for a week )
[18:29:56] <Fox_Muldr> ok you gurus, what is your opinion in this matter. could i completele disable this local apic and work with emc without this in ubuntu 10.04 or is my cpu too old for this and i have to stick with 8.04?
[18:30:17] <Fox_Muldr> psha: i'm playing with emc also only for a few months now and then when i have time
[18:31:02] <Fox_Muldr> psha: but after friday i have much more spare time to investigate my problems (after my last exam for this year)
[18:32:58] <Fox_Muldr> i think for today i have enough of playing with an only partly working ubuntu live-usb-stick version :)
[18:33:44] <psha> :)
[18:38:44] <Fox_Muldr> but i collected all the steps to create the bootable usb-stick in a textfile :)
[18:39:30] <Fox_Muldr> who knows when i needs this again
[18:46:05] <Jymmm> Or, you could have just used unetbootin and been done. KISS... Keep it simple stupid, why over-think things?
[18:46:54] <Fox_Muldr> Jymmm: at last it worked even the hard way. the problem with apic is another story ;)
[18:47:23] <psha> Jymmm: honestly speaking there are only three commands :) but without gui :)
[18:47:31] <Fox_Muldr> and why easy when there is a hard way :)
[18:48:15] <Fox_Muldr> psha: you are right. there are not many steps. it only took so long until i understood how things worked :)
[18:48:21] <Jymmm> Well, I guess if you place no value on your time, then go for it.
[18:48:30] <skunkworks> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/yaxis/adaptmounted.jpg
[18:48:55] <Fox_Muldr> it is no lost time. i learned something from this. and that is worth my time
[18:49:44] <psha> also it's very easy to switch between live-cd images
[18:49:55] <psha> just write them to 'data' partition and select another grub entry
[18:50:08] <Fox_Muldr> i'm a student so if i have no fun at learning things i maybe have done something wrong :)
[18:50:30] <Fox_Muldr> you know knowledge is power ;)
[18:50:33] <psha> if your flash is large enought you may write both images and select proper from boot menu
[18:51:31] <Fox_Muldr> psha: but when i understand it right these usb livecd images are still read only, or not?
[18:51:47] <psha> they are read only always
[18:52:01] <Fox_Muldr> ok, just want to be sure
[18:52:32] <psha> live cd image is a squashfs (compressed filesystem) mounted readonly with memdisk on top of it
[18:52:40] <Fox_Muldr> so the best thing would be a "livecd" on usb stick which is accesable like harddisk and saves data back :)
[18:54:01] <psha> not so simple :) i've switched from 'hard disk like usb stick' to 'live cd like usb stick' for my home router
[18:54:25] <psha> since usb may loose flash for a short period (
[18:54:30] <psha> it's hw dependent
[18:55:15] <Fox_Muldr> soyou mean the usb connection to the device is not as reliable as it should be to use it as rootfs
[18:57:07] <Jymmm> JT-Work: I *HATE* my drill press!
[19:28:21] <JT-Work> gee Jymmm I do to and I don't even know your drill press
[19:28:37] <Jymmm> JT-Work: Yeah!
[19:29:02] <Jymmm> JT-Work: When you lower the quill, it goes that way -->
[19:35:33] <alex_joni> the rtai for 10.04 is compiled to require a lapic
[19:35:52] <alex_joni> you could run without one, but only after recompiling rtai (and the kernel)
[19:36:04] <alex_joni> afterwards you'd have to recompile emc2 aswell
[19:36:12] <alex_joni> that's quite a bit of work to get right
[19:37:53] <psha> alex_joni: is rtai-enabled kernel needed to compile emc?
[19:43:38] <alex_joni> psha: you don't need to boot it
[19:43:50] <alex_joni> you only have to have the proper headers package installed
[19:44:06] <alex_joni> otoh you can also compile emc2 in sim-only mode
[19:44:14] <alex_joni> then you don't need the rtai kernel
[19:45:56] <alex_joni> neither for compiling nor for running
[19:46:06] <alex_joni> but you can't drive actual hardware
[19:52:21] <psha> alex_joni: i've already compiled sim-only mode for testing patches but now i've to roll rt version of emc for real hardware
[19:53:00] <psha> and i don't want to pollute real system with gcc & friends
[19:54:18] <psha> if build only need some additional packages it's ok since i have system for clear builds
[20:59:18] <NTU> Hi guys! When I use the Ubuntu 10.04 EMC live CD, all the numbers stay at 0 in latency-test.
[21:00:19] <NTU> It's a 785GT/GTM something rather by GIGABYTE with a quad core Phenom II
[21:00:34] <seb_kuzminsky> best latency ever!
[21:01:01] <NTU> Well it's not correct.. :)
[21:01:24] <seb_kuzminsky> oh, right, bummer
[21:01:26] <seb_kuzminsky> ;-)
[21:01:52] <NTU> Also in Arch Linux my latency is at 248,000us+ and was wondering if there is a way to debug RTAI..
[21:02:49] <NTU> Live CD on same machine is at ~4,000us so something isn't working right deep down. btw I switched from 64 bit to 32-bit with the Arch project.
[21:06:01] <NTU> also, how do you get latency-test and emc to run without using sudo when building from source?
[21:06:41] <cpresser> "make setuid"
[21:07:19] <cpresser> this sets the suid bit on the required binary
[21:07:32] <NTU> ah :) thanks!
[21:56:59] <skunkworks> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZnQG_gf2cE
[22:08:31] <NTU> maybe I should turn off "Low-latency desktop" in Processors and Features and "1000_HZ" and for RCU make it classic. I have all the stuff on low-latency. maybe RTAI works best with regular settings?
[22:09:12] <NTU> or is the 248,000+ microsecond latency a bigger issue than just a kernel config?
[22:11:05] <andypugh> When does it happen? Is it, by any chance, every 64 seconds?
[22:11:21] <NTU> no when it first starts... every single time
[22:11:22] <andypugh> You could look at the kernel config suggested here: http://neo-technical.wikispaces.com/emc2-ubuntu
[22:11:36] <NTU> I wrote that guide :)
[22:11:49] <skunkworks> heh
[22:12:02] <andypugh> Well write it correctly then :-)
[22:12:23] <andypugh> If it is a spike at start-up that never repeats, I would be tempted to ignore it.
[22:12:35] <NTU> no it stays like that
[22:12:44] <skunkworks> what are you using for the video driver?
[22:14:00] <NTU> DRI - swrast 7.8.2 stable and for DDX - xf86-video-ati
[22:14:11] <NTU> kernel DRM and AGP is off though
[22:14:37] <NTU> it wouldnt effect it that much though.
[22:15:40] <andypugh> What do you get with a live-cd boot?
[22:15:47] <NTU> around 4,000 us
[22:16:22] <NTU> for max jitter on servo thread
[22:16:46] <andypugh> So the system is capable.
[22:16:57] <andypugh> (incidentally, I think the units are nS)
[22:17:12] <NTU> right sorry
[22:17:28] <andypugh> 248,000 uS is a quarter of a second. That would be worse than an abacus :-)
[22:18:10] <NTU> Maybe I should try different (newer) RTAI patch against newer kernel?
[22:18:25] <NTU> I could use one from magma RTAI branch I guess.
[22:19:36] <andypugh> Would Mozmck's debs be any use?
[22:20:03] <NTU> for the kernel?
[22:20:31] <NTU> I dont know if this latency is in userspace or not actually...
[22:20:42] <NTU> *latency problem
[22:21:36] <andypugh> I think there was a kernel deb. To be honest I am not the right person to be discussing this with.
[22:21:53] <NTU> OK would you happen to know the location of the debs?
[22:22:24] <andypugh> http://www.linuxcnc.org/mozmck/old/
[22:23:19] <andypugh> I have _no_ idea what is what\
[22:23:29] <Valen> I see a huge latency spike when starting new opengl windows
[22:23:36] <Valen> not 250k though
[22:23:47] <skunkworks> have you tried the vesa video driver?
[22:23:51] <mozmck> NTU, I found the rtai did indeed give better latency results without "Low-latency desktop" and with I think 250_HZ
[22:24:12] <Valen> the whole point of RTAI is its above even the kernel is my understanding
[22:24:37] <NTU> thanks mozmck I'll switch it around a bit. Ill change my RCU too
[22:25:05] <Valen> NTU: have you checked latency after starting the window?
[22:25:23] <NTU> what window?
[22:25:38] <Valen> sorry I just see a spike when i open an openGL windows
[22:26:01] <NTU> oh like glxgears or something?
[22:26:06] <Valen> yeah
[22:26:13] <Valen> but only when starting them
[22:26:18] <Valen> once its running its fine
[22:26:22] <NTU> if you really want to stress your machine, run a glean test :P
[22:26:41] <NTU> piglit i think will do the trick too
[22:27:33] <Valen> its something to do with creating a new window
[22:27:42] <Valen> after that it doesn't seem to be an issue
[22:27:52] <NTU> with or without compiz / Kwin / compositing?
[22:28:07] <Valen> I've seen the same with nvidia binary and intel stuff
[22:28:20] <Valen> i *believe* it was the same with compiz on
[22:30:15] <NTU> I know the nvidia blobs cause serious RTAI problems
[22:30:45] <Valen> with SMP on it was fine
[22:30:51] <Valen> 1K latency
[22:31:18] <NTU> Id love to turn off ACPI / PM support but my SATA controller depends on it, so im stuck...
[22:31:18] <Valen> ~30k spike on starting gl window
[22:31:32] <Valen> are you using SMP?
[22:31:38] <NTU> yes 4 cores
[22:31:42] <Valen> also make sure hyper threading is turned off
[22:31:50] <NTU> its off
[22:31:56] <NTU> so it multi-core scheduler
[22:32:02] <NTU> *is
[22:32:03] <Valen> isocpus set?
[22:32:07] <NTU> 3
[22:32:40] <NTU> it causes hard locks though
[22:33:55] <Valen> have you compiled any of your own stuff?
[22:34:22] <NTU> heh all of it
[22:34:37] <Valen> well I know where i'd be pointing the finger ;-P
[22:34:51] <NTU> what?
[22:35:23] <Valen> if the out of the box one works and the one you compiled doesnt...
[22:35:44] <NTU> hopefully this new kernel config fixes it..
[22:37:17] <NTU> brb
[22:48:51] <NTU> same latency as before..
[22:49:15] <andypugh> Don't you love Linux?
[22:50:05] <NTU> I do.
[22:50:23] <andypugh> But does it love you back?
[22:50:29] <andypugh> I am not sure, today.
[22:50:34] <NTU> haha :)
[22:56:27] <NTU> im trying magma now..
[23:24:15] <NTU> oh shoot... with EMC do you use the i386 RTAI patches in base/ or x86?
[23:26:45] <andypugh> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?Ubuntu10.04Notes
[23:26:49] <andypugh> says x86
[23:26:54] <NTU> oh goodie
[23:38:19] <NTU> how much work would it be to get EMC to not use the pci_find_device API?
[23:38:36] <NTU> its been depreciated for awhile now...
[23:39:03] <Valen> NTU: why are you mucking about with the innards of EMC? ;->
[23:39:40] <NTU> because the newer kernels supported by RTAI no longer use the pci_8blah function
[23:40:12] <NTU> src/hal/drivers/hal_m5i20.c:288:5: error: implicit declaration of function ‘pci_find_device’
[23:40:59] <NTU> I'm currently on patched with RTAI magma along with magma userspace, but EMC uses old code.. :(
[23:43:15] <NTU> oh i fixed it!
[23:43:49] <skunkworks> yah! :)
[23:45:37] <NTU> FIXED JITTER!
[23:45:47] <NTU> yes! oh thank god! RTAI + EMC now works....
[23:46:01] <skunkworks> How? what was the key?
[23:47:36] <NTU> RTAI userspace and kernel from magma tree, with some EMC code changed. wherever it says pci_find_device compiling error, replace with pci_get_device
[23:48:18] <NTU> :D cheers mates!!! thank you all so so much for the help, and support! Now time to update those Arch Linux packages and guides!
[23:50:33] <Valen> ahh your packaging it, thats why your mucking about so much lol
[23:50:34] <DaViruz> you can also enable pci legacy in the kernel config
[23:50:48] <DaViruz> and it will change thos function calls for you
[23:50:54] <Valen> I thaught you were just screwing around with the 10.04 install
[23:51:06] <NTU> haha no no no :)