#emc | Logs for 2010-09-26

[00:03:40] <theorb> theorb is now known as theorbtwo
[00:07:54] <petemckenna> Does anybody do threading on EMC? I recently got a small CNC Lathe that's running Mach, but I'd like to "upgrade" it to EMC, but want to make sure I'll be able to cut threads.
[00:26:18] <elmo40> petemckenna: there sure is threading.
[00:26:43] <elmo40> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7siyX041FqQ
[00:27:44] <petemckenna> Yes I know, I'm having trouble getting the Lathe-G76.ngc file to work though, I'm not sure how to deal with the "length of cutter compensation move" error
[00:27:44] <elmo40> very light cuts on that one ;) but it traces them nicely!
[00:28:08] <elmo40> sorry, mill guy myself. slowly building my lathe, though
[00:31:51] <petemckenna> cool, I built a router first and bought a convert Lathe, haven't done much with it yet.
[00:54:02] <elmo40> any pics? :) we love pics.
[00:54:24] <elmo40> now I can buy a new board with PCIe and add a par port http://www.microbarn.com/details.aspx?rid=102427
[01:06:04] <elmo40> Jymmm: you drill that hole yet?
[01:06:22] <Jymmm> nope
[01:07:38] <elmo40> I think sandwiching multiple boards 'may' work, depends on the drift of the drill. make sure it is sharp so it stays true.
[01:07:58] <elmo40> what size hole?
[01:08:49] <elmo40> so a pendent connects to one par port?
[01:12:14] <petemckenna> Got some pics here, but I haven't updated it in awhile http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89023
[01:12:30] <the_wench> willeo6709: KimK said willeo6709: (sent via "later) Yes, "quiet room", but I just missed you, it seems. So, thought I'd say hi at least. Talk to you later.
[01:13:05] <willeo6709> whats new people?
[01:50:22] <Jymmm> petemckenna: What the hell?? You cna't use 2x4 weldded aluminum tubing , then add wood, then on top of that use a POS HF trim router!!!
[01:52:27] <elmo40> ya... weak, eh
[01:53:45] <willeo6709> that aluminum tube is too small, and in that size too thin a wall, need something more like 2 x 4 solid 7075 to get stiffness
[02:00:02] <petemckenna> Yeah, if I knew anything when I started.....
[02:00:32] <elmo40> and NEMA23 motors?
[02:00:34] <willeo6709> if all you are cutting is light artistic stuff you may get away with it
[02:00:35] <elmo40> why so small?
[02:00:42] <willeo6709> but don't try titanium
[02:00:54] <elmo40> if you want any speed at all...
[02:01:30] <petemckenna> It was cheap, I was going to use wood 2x4 it's a Solsylva, meant to be built with hardware store parts
[02:02:34] <petemckenna> The AL is 2x5 x 1/8"
[02:04:27] <petemckenna> I wanted to build a Joe's 4x4 but, realized I wouldn't be able to build it with the tools and knowledge I had, so this is where I started. A friend welded the tubes for me.
[02:05:13] <willeo6709> cool
[02:06:17] <petemckenna> And yes, cutting Titanium would be out. I have cut 3/4" AL with a 1/4" bit, it's a little nerve wracking, but I'm cutting upgrades, so hopefully things will get better
[02:14:58] <petemckenna> The idea is to phase the rest of the wood out. I hope to get an actual mill someday, but it's OK for the occasional AL cutting
[02:15:10] <willeo6709> cool
[02:17:18] <Jymmm> Hey, MDF as a sacraficial top, sure. but no wood, plastic sure, but no wood
[02:17:56] <Jymmm> IT'S AGAINEST THE LAW to mix welded aluminum and wood!
[02:19:03] <petemckenna> I'm try to recover. My friend who can weld AL for me is 4 hours away, so I'm on my own for the upgrades
[02:19:14] <elmo40> wood could absorb vibrations... ;)
[02:19:38] <Jymmm> It's only legal to mix wood and welded aluminum, when the CRATE it's being shipped in is wood.
[02:19:53] <petemckenna> Or resonate with them, that's where the nerve wracking part.
[02:21:00] <petemckenna> Jymmm it's funny I described my router exactly that way. The upgrade will be big / rigid enough to hold a PC router, at least I hope it will.
[02:23:54] <petemckenna> Oh the other CNC I got going with EMC is a inspection machine we hope to turn into a laser cutter, and or 3D printer. That's here. http://www.tcmaker.org/blog/2010/09/hacking-up-a-laser-cnc/
[02:24:35] <petemckenna> I can't be held responsible for how it's built, it's a commercial machine.
[02:26:23] <Jymmm> Yes, you can. We'll just tar and feather you with your own machine!
[02:26:53] <petemckenna> I can feel the love.
[02:27:21] <Jymmm> I knew you could =)
[02:29:33] <petemckenna> OK, so one more time, anybody here a Lathe user that could explain how to get threading going? I don't understand the offset error I get in the lathe-g76.ngc file
[02:30:00] <willeo6709> no emc lathes but fairly familiar with fanuc g76 cycles
[02:31:54] <petemckenna> Hmmm, I don't much about any of it, but I'm trying to run this code, and I get errors about the "length of cutter compensation move"
[02:32:47] <willeo6709> how long is the move?
[02:32:53] <willeo6709> how much is the comp?
[02:33:14] <willeo6709> in general you get comp errors when the move is shorter or equal to the comp
[02:33:26] <willeo6709> if the cutter" does not move"
[02:33:35] <willeo6709> or has to" back up"
[02:33:40] <willeo6709> you get comp errors
[02:33:59] <willeo6709> and have to increase the length of the programmedmove
[02:34:14] <willeo6709> never turn comp on in a radius move, always a g1
[02:37:11] <petemckenna> So it says, ength of cutter compensation entry move is not greater than the tool radius.
[02:37:54] <petemckenna> Does that mean I just need to adjust the tools radius, (this is all simulated so I can do that to make it work)
[02:38:03] <willeo6709> in a thread tool you should not have more than a 0 radius in the tool file
[02:38:27] <willeo6709> the tool radius is used in g41/g42 moves to accurately cut chamfers, etc.
[02:38:29] <petemckenna> let me check, I think the tool table has a diameter setting
[02:38:32] <willeo6709> not in threading
[02:38:44] <petemckenna> I think it's a G43
[02:38:48] <willeo6709> in lathe it should have a tool type id and a radius
[02:39:06] <willeo6709> g43 is typically tool length offsets in mills
[02:40:02] <willeo6709> for instance in a HMC g43 h8 z4.0 takes the tool from g28 machine home to 4.0 above the part taking in work and ttool offsets
[02:42:10] <willeo6709> but i have not messed alot with emc... waiting for boards to get started on a vmc conversion
[02:42:47] <petemckenna> It is a g43, it had just "h" by itself. I changed it to "h1" to reference the tool table. I think that's correct, I just can't get an entry that will let it run.
[02:43:35] <willeo6709> if you have an h in fanuc, you have to have a tool id behind it to designate the register
[02:44:28] <petemckenna> I think that's true here to, it just didn't change the error when I gave it a tool id.
[02:57:06] <cradek> what's the length of the entry move, and what's the tool radius?
[02:57:56] <cradek> if you're just experimenting, you could skip using cutter compensation (remove g41 or g42)
[02:58:35] <cradek> but if you want to get it to work, you have to fix either the length of the entry move or the tool radius (it's a very clear message isn't it?)
[02:59:43] <willeo6709> all cnc error messages are somewhat cryptic
[02:59:57] <willeo6709> makes no difference what kind of control
[03:00:10] <cradek> well this one's very plain english
[03:00:36] <petemckenna> I'm sure it is, I just don't know what I'm doing
[03:00:48] <petemckenna> It's a g43 BTW
[03:00:50] <cradek> the entry move is the first one after applying g41 or g42
[03:01:21] <cradek> g43 won't have anything to do with a cutter compensation error
[03:01:57] <petemckenna> OK, then I'm even more lost.
[03:01:58] <cradek> I think I have the file here - g76.ngc - what line is the error?
[03:02:23] <cradek> g0z1x-1
[03:02:23] <cradek> g41
[03:02:23] <cradek> g0z1
[03:02:28] <cradek> is it here? this looks just wrong
[03:02:35] <cradek> that entry move (g0z1) is *zero* length
[03:02:53] <cradek> so it's going to be less than any tool radius other than zero
[03:03:00] <petemckenna> It's .2 in the one I have
[03:03:11] <cradek> what's .2?
[03:03:23] <willeo6709> in general in maual lathe programming you don't use g41/42 and g76 canned cycle
[03:03:26] <petemckenna> g0z0x.2 is the move I believe
[03:03:37] <cradek> hm maybe yours is different - pastebin it?
[03:03:54] <cradek> willeo6709 is right about not using cutter comp with a threading tool
[03:04:05] <cradek> but looks like this program does other stuff first with another tool
[03:04:21] <petemckenna> (face and turn outside diameter)
[03:04:21] <petemckenna> t1 m6
[03:04:22] <petemckenna> s1200 m3
[03:04:22] <petemckenna> g4p1
[03:04:22] <petemckenna> g43 H1
[03:04:23] <petemckenna> g0z0x.2
[03:04:23] <petemckenna> f4
[03:04:24] <petemckenna> g1x-.0625
[03:04:24] <willeo6709> then do a g40 before you go into g76
[03:04:24] <petemckenna> g0z.1
[03:04:24] <petemckenna> x.120
[03:04:24] <petemckenna> f5
[03:04:25] <petemckenna> g1z-.55
[03:04:25] <petemckenna> g0x.2
[03:04:42] <willeo6709> sometimes you have to turn off comp in rapid moves as well
[03:04:44] <cradek> ok I don't see cutter comp being turned on there
[03:04:58] <cradek> so that must not be where the error is. what line does it say is the error?
[03:05:03] <willeo6709> whats the g4p1?
[03:05:10] <cradek> pause one second
[03:05:10] <willeo6709> dwell?
[03:05:24] <petemckenna> It doesn't have a line number.
[03:05:37] <petemckenna> It's a loop it's complaining about I think
[03:06:00] <cradek> when you open the file, it should say "near line xxx: some error"
[03:06:28] <cradek> generally the error will be within one line of what it says
[03:06:36] <petemckenna> It will run, at least the start, it may be the next loop that has the error
[03:06:52] <cradek> reopen it, or poke reload
[03:07:03] <petemckenna> yep it has a g41
[03:07:06] <petemckenna> (round the end)
[03:07:06] <petemckenna> o100 sub
[03:07:07] <petemckenna> g0z1x-1
[03:07:07] <petemckenna> g41
[03:07:08] <petemckenna> g0z1
[03:07:08] <petemckenna> g2 x0 z0 r1
[03:07:08] <petemckenna> g3 x3.05 z-3.05 i0 k-3.05
[03:07:09] <petemckenna> g91
[03:07:09] <petemckenna> g2 z-1.5 x1 r1.5
[03:07:09] <petemckenna> g90
[03:07:09] <petemckenna> g40
[03:07:10] <petemckenna> g0 x4.5
[03:07:10] <petemckenna> o100 endsub
[03:07:18] <cradek> yes that's what I pasted earlier
[03:07:26] <petemckenna> Sorry
[03:07:27] <cradek> see how the entry move (the one after g41) is zero length?
[03:07:40] <petemckenna> yes,
[03:07:42] <cradek> that will fail if your tool's radius is > 0
[03:07:50] <cradek> for the reason it says in the error message
[03:07:56] <petemckenna> OK
[03:07:57] <cradek> this gcode is silly
[03:08:11] <petemckenna> I will change that and give it a try.
[03:08:20] <cradek> you could just take out the g41
[03:08:29] <petemckenna> I'm open, what's a good way to code threading
[03:08:38] <cradek> or, make the line above it something like g0z1.5x-1
[03:08:43] <willeo6709> are g76 thread cycles in emc?
[03:08:49] <cradek> yes
[03:08:54] <willeo6709> its the easiest in fanuc
[03:09:04] <cradek> g76 is the best way to do a simple (non tapered) thread in emc
[03:09:56] <willeo6709> g76 does not support taper?
[03:10:02] <cradek> in that file maybe you should just nuke everything after the g20 line and before the t4 m6
[03:10:15] <cradek> no, to do a taper thread in emc you have to use g33 and program each pass yourself
[03:10:19] <petemckenna> OK
[03:11:00] <willeo6709> seems like that needs work... in a fanuc you put in an r number and thats the amount of the taper
[03:11:14] <cradek> emc's threading cycle is nothing like fanuc's
[03:12:52] <cradek> petemckenna: give this a shot: http://timeguy.com/cradek-files/emc/g76.ngc
[03:13:29] <cradek> usually you won't want or need that L2 (tapered ends)
[03:13:47] <cradek> heh I bet you could cut a tapered thread with that - I never even considered it
[03:15:42] <petemckenna> I will, thanks for all the help. Cutting everything, but the threading section works as well.
[03:17:45] <petemckenna> looks like that's about the same thing, cool, now I can move my Lathe to EMC from Mach
[03:19:58] <cradek> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.4/html/gcode_main.html#sec:G76:-Threading-Canned
[03:28:43] <cradek> jthornton_: saw your question about tapping. use flood coolant or oil, use good hss spiral point taps for thru holes
[03:28:58] <cradek> for blind holes, drill them very deep and still use spiral point taps, haha
[04:48:16] <morfic> cradek: e.05 means there is a 1 pitch taper, and the taper is from minor to major? wondering if bringing e and z together (just trig it out to create the angle you want), might not work for all parts, but a lot? that's what you were thinking about?
[04:50:23] <morfic> cradek: too bad there is no pack on G84 in EMC, else i would suggest a peck of 2xpitch for blind holes (smaller peck amounts create small chips pecking under the tap and snapping it as if you had let a spiral point do it, and don't ask why i am so painfully aware of this), and OSG makes our taps of choice, tap breakage went drastically down with their taps (switched from greenfield)
[06:44:59] <mrsunshine__> wth ...
[06:45:04] <mrsunshine__> http://www.sherline.com/6500pg.htm
[06:53:02] <nullie> for mounting some tool like knife?
[07:06:48] <Endeavour_> Endeavour_ is now known as Endeavour
[08:58:32] <WalterN> hmm
[08:59:05] <WalterN> if I'm building my own CNC mill, how would I control the servos for the X,Y, and Z axes?
[09:00:58] <WalterN> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=9014
[09:01:01] <WalterN> but..
[09:01:02] <WalterN> meh
[09:01:12] <WalterN> I dont know
[09:01:23] <Mendel|mill> not sure i get the question right
[09:01:35] <Mendel|mill> are you thinking of electronics or software ?
[09:02:03] <WalterN> electronics
[09:02:10] <Mendel|mill> i would probably go with a kit
[09:02:14] <WalterN> emc just uses a serial port
[09:02:59] <WalterN> but does it PWM the servos directly, and just need an amplifier?
[09:03:27] <WalterN> how is feedback handled?
[09:03:44] <WalterN> or position rather
[09:04:37] <Mendel|mill> i have only buildt with stepper motors for now, someone else here with experience on servos ?
[09:05:05] <WalterN> I dont really want to cheap out with steppers
[09:05:41] <Mendel|mill> got servos in my new mill but i havent had the time to get it up and running yet
[09:05:48] <WalterN> as I plan on putting in over $5,000 into this
[09:06:21] <WalterN> between $5,000 and $10,000 in the end
[09:06:22] <Mendel|mill> servos sure will give better more acurate results :)
[09:06:54] <WalterN> so yeah, I dont want garbage.. heh
[09:07:14] <Mendel|mill> but for that price im pretty sure you can get a used professional made mill too
[09:07:25] <WalterN> meh
[09:07:28] <WalterN> not suitable
[09:07:46] <WalterN> http://www.artcotools.com/compete-nsk-e3000-series-spindle-system-60000-rpm-pr-16758.html
[09:07:56] <WalterN> is what it would be built around
[09:08:37] <WalterN> or some other model
[09:09:11] <Mendel|mill> i looked at some water cooled ones too but not sure of the quality
[09:09:12] <WalterN> I installed one on an omni-turn lathe for the C-axes
[09:09:28] <WalterN> I was very impressed with the quality
[09:09:37] <Mendel|mill> for that price it should be good :)
[09:09:47] <WalterN> very well made, and really quiet
[09:11:03] <Mendel|mill> i was planning on building my own mill myself but in the end it was cheaper to get a ready made than getting all the parts :/ cannot get anything localy shipping costs killed the project
[09:11:08] <WalterN> I need to spend my money on something useful before it goes somewhere not useful
[09:12:00] <WalterN> like that $3,000 computer build I just priced out
[09:12:01] <WalterN> lol
[09:12:05] <Mendel|mill> lol
[09:12:24] <Mendel|mill> well i spent like 1200 USD on a useless reprap printer :P
[09:12:33] <WalterN> heh
[09:12:58] <WalterN> was a bit more conservative and bought a $275 color laser
[09:13:41] <WalterN> hmm
[09:13:50] <WalterN> anyway
[09:14:02] <WalterN> I think I could sell it to the shop here at work
[09:14:16] <WalterN> or contract myself to do some of the work at the shop
[09:14:37] <WalterN> for the engraving stuff
[09:14:44] <Mendel|mill> yeah, what about the frame for it and so on got ideas?
[09:15:02] <WalterN> oh, I'll think of something
[09:15:14] <WalterN> I know how that works
[09:15:33] <WalterN> what I dont know is the server-->computer interface
[09:15:39] <WalterN> erm
[09:15:43] <WalterN> servo-->computer
[09:16:17] <Mendel|mill> pretty sure someone in here knows about it
[09:16:25] <Mendel|mill> but it seems like a sleepy channel right now
[09:16:49] <Mendel|mill> wake up guys!!
[09:17:04] <WalterN> its "easy enough" to get ball screws and the linear guides and make them work for the axes
[09:17:22] <WalterN> lol
[09:17:35] <WalterN> legos for the grownups
[09:17:44] <Mendel|mill> ;)
[09:18:07] <WalterN> *smug satisfaction*
[09:18:17] <WalterN> heh, I love making things
[09:18:53] <WalterN> as do probably everyone else in this channel
[09:19:00] <WalterN> does*
[09:19:51] <WalterN> hmm
[09:20:35] <Mendel|mill> there is not much going on here it seems
[09:20:47] <WalterN> http://www.cncroutersource.com/linear-motion.html
[09:20:51] <Mendel|mill> even mattymatt is silent
[09:20:58] <WalterN> one or two of those for each axes
[09:21:06] <WalterN> along with the ball screw
[09:21:31] <WalterN> I think thats how they are made anyway, right?
[09:21:52] <Mendel|mill> yeah
[09:21:53] <micges> WalterN: hi
[09:22:00] <micges> what is your problem?
[09:22:10] <Mendel|mill> i got rails and guide blocks on mine
[09:22:12] <WalterN> where should I start?
[09:22:17] <WalterN> hmm
[09:22:34] <WalterN> money seems to be one of the bigger problems these days
[09:22:34] <micges> beginning
[09:22:41] <WalterN> ;)
[09:22:54] <WalterN> but not really related to my question for this channel
[09:22:57] <WalterN> or questions
[09:23:13] <micges> I have that problem too ;)
[09:23:39] <WalterN> anyways
[09:23:57] <WalterN> if making a CNC from scratch and using EMC
[09:24:12] <WalterN> how does it control servos?
[09:24:47] <WalterN> basically, you need to PWM the servo to turn it at a certain RPM
[09:25:09] <WalterN> but, does that PWM signal go over the serial cable directly?
[09:25:14] <WalterN> need drivers?
[09:25:26] <WalterN> how does it read position?
[09:25:38] <micges> if you use complicated drivers like baldor, you only feed it with -+10V analog
[09:25:40] <WalterN> I know position needs to come from something else
[09:25:50] <archivist> an encoder on the servo
[09:26:20] <micges> driver internally converts it to pwm
[09:27:03] <micges> and position comes in to pc from encoders on motors
[09:27:12] <micges> that is basic servo setup
[09:27:15] <WalterN> I dont know about mills, but on C-axes lathes have a separate large wheel thing with slots cut out
[09:27:44] <WalterN> like an optical trackball mouse
[09:27:55] <WalterN> same thing as far as I can tell
[09:28:24] <micges> look at www.mesanet.com
[09:29:18] <micges> if you have: pci card 5i20 + servo card 7i33
[09:29:49] <WalterN> wait, how would emc interface with it then?
[09:29:58] <micges> then driving servo is connect analog 10V from 7i33 to servo driver and connect ABZ signal from encoderto that card
[09:29:59] <WalterN> I thought it used a serial port
[09:30:14] <micges> emc support few pci cards
[09:31:22] <WalterN> I'm not really seeing prices..
[09:31:40] <WalterN> oh
[09:32:07] <WalterN> nothing much over $300
[09:32:42] <micges> and you must have servo driver and motor
[09:33:11] <micges> baldor (high end) is about 1000$ per axis
[09:33:35] <WalterN> whats that?
[09:33:35] <micges> 12 - 15Nm
[09:34:16] <micges> do you know what are motor types?
[09:34:19] <WalterN> I'm a bit lost in this website, and what I would need exactly
[09:34:24] <WalterN> no.. heh
[09:34:38] <WalterN> just 'servo' though
[09:34:44] <WalterN> not huge
[09:34:53] <micges> so you must first do read some papers
[09:35:00] <WalterN> largish table top engraving machine
[09:35:10] <micges> and then select what you'll need
[09:36:34] <WalterN> so where do I start?
[09:37:05] <WalterN> just pick a servo and go from there?
[09:37:21] <micges> hold on
[09:38:12] <WalterN> this is something that I've wanted to do for some time now
[09:38:30] <WalterN> getting around to it is kinda exciting
[09:38:57] <WalterN> and 4 days into making it, a bore to continue
[09:39:09] <WalterN> lol
[09:40:09] <WalterN> but, in the end, will have been worth it, as are all my other projects :)
[09:40:23] <micges> hmm
[09:40:38] <micges> it's hard to direct you in that subject
[09:40:52] <WalterN> do servos typically have the incoder built in?
[09:42:16] <micges> I think you should first note: what machine have to do? how fast? does tool and spindle or whatever will bew heavy?
[09:42:28] <micges> how much precision it must have?
[09:42:58] <micges> then you can sleect driving model (stepper, servo) depends on how much money you can spend
[09:43:00] <WalterN> http://www.artcotools.com/compete-nsk-e3000-series-spindle-system-60000-rpm-pr-16758.html or something very close to it
[09:43:10] <WalterN> for the actual tool
[09:43:18] <WalterN> they make a tool changer
[09:43:31] <WalterN> but I'm not worried about that
[09:43:34] <WalterN> right now
[09:44:39] <WalterN> how fast? I donno.. umm
[09:45:04] <micges> I think if oyu don't have enough knowlege and have money, you must have some person that is in subject to help you
[09:45:06] <WalterN> the omni-turn lathe I worked with was 300 IPM for rapids
[09:45:49] <micges> other way it can easly turn into money eating black hole
[09:45:56] <WalterN> and seemed reasonably fast, I dont think I would want to go any faster
[09:46:05] <WalterN> heh
[09:46:17] <WalterN> micges: thats the way all projects end up being
[09:46:34] <micges> not exactly
[09:47:22] <micges> but most of ;)
[09:47:36] <WalterN> <micges> I think if oyu don't have enough knowlege and have money, you must have some person that is in subject to help you
[09:47:43] <WalterN> can you reiterate?
[09:48:06] <micges> you wroted that you have some money for it right?
[09:48:13] <WalterN> hmm
[09:48:14] <WalterN> will
[09:48:19] <WalterN> lol
[09:48:26] <WalterN> but yeah
[09:49:03] <micges> even so building machines can't be done without some knowlege
[09:49:18] <micges> you can learn that knowlege using such machine
[09:49:32] <WalterN> hmm
[09:49:48] <WalterN> I've been a machinist for the last 5 years, does that count?
[09:50:19] <micges> of course
[09:50:28] <WalterN> 5years.. wow... I feel old
[09:50:33] <micges> did you repair them?
[09:51:05] <WalterN> repair? not really...
[09:51:23] <WalterN> I mean
[09:51:30] <WalterN> hmm
[09:51:56] <micges> don't
[09:51:58] <micges> write
[09:52:03] <micges> in
[09:52:05] <micges> that
[09:52:07] <micges> way
[09:52:10] <micges> please ;)
[09:52:36] <WalterN> the most extensive thing was install that spindle I linked you to on an omni-turn with C-axes
[09:53:22] <WalterN> though I didnt deal with the interface between the machine and the spindle controller for the most part
[09:53:28] <micges> I see
[09:54:44] <WalterN> I did set up the interface between the office computer and the machine.. heh
[09:55:01] <WalterN> but, not really related :P
[09:55:36] <WalterN> and I'm still not sure what you are trying to get at
[09:58:25] <micges> if you want 300ipm I think you should use some servos
[09:59:12] <micges> steppers on higher rpms loose down theirs Nm
[09:59:18] <WalterN> 200 would probably be fine, 300 was just a reference point for me
[09:59:48] <micges> servo have same Nm on whole rpm range
[09:59:58] <WalterN> Nm?
[10:00:31] <micges> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton_metre
[10:00:51] <micges> shortly strength of motor
[10:01:08] <WalterN> oh right, torque
[10:02:49] <micges> further, steppers are easier to driving, for slow machines you must link pins from LPT port to steppers drivers, that 's all
[10:03:20] <WalterN> yeah
[10:03:33] <WalterN> I dont like steppers in CNC machine though
[10:03:37] <micges> for servo it's recommended to use some servo cards like mesa, servo-to-go etc
[10:04:35] <micges> in mesa: emc have drivers that get position from interpolators and convert it into some pwm
[10:05:07] <micges> pwm goes to card where it converts to -+10V and then it goes to servo driver
[10:05:34] <micges> so it's harder and more expensive
[10:06:47] <WalterN> what about http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=9014 ?
[10:08:06] <micges> I don't think emc have i2c or twi interface drivers
[10:08:09] <WalterN> oh, it does not input with PWM
[10:10:47] <WalterN> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8897
[10:12:06] <WalterN> but thats probably not what you had in mind
[10:13:32] <micges> like this: http://www.servo-halbeck.com/content/view/79/139/lang,en/
[10:15:08] <micges> high end: http://www.baldor.com/products/motioncontrol/microflexE100.asp
[10:15:52] <micges> there are surely cheaper drivers
[10:16:18] <micges> bbl
[10:17:28] <WalterN> I cant stay awake any more
[10:17:31] <WalterN> sleep
[10:18:03] <micges> where are you?
[10:18:31] <micges> I'm in Poland, here is 12am
[10:50:32] <jthornton> http://www.linuxcnc.org/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,20/func,view/catid,9/id,4344/lang,english/#4344
[11:36:01] <jthornton_> jthornton_ is now known as jthornton
[13:52:27] <jthornton> oh crumb, I can't drill all the holes in the cover in one op I'm a bit short of Y
[13:54:52] <skunkworks> crumb is right!
[13:57:31] <jthornton> I only have 12.5" of Y and need 14" for the cover plate for the CHNC
[13:58:36] <skunkworks> I thought everyone had 36" of Y ;)
[14:00:00] <skunkworks> jthornton: how is your vmc coming?
[14:00:49] <jthornton> I'm down to replacing two more windows and getting my OneCNC post working for it
[14:01:19] <jthornton> I've made several parts including cutting the radius corners for the windows on it :)
[14:01:38] <cpresser> finished my patch for halui, which allows named mdi-commands. now, where should I put it for code review?
[14:02:11] <jthornton> you might want to ask that on #emc-devel
[14:02:30] <cpresser> sounds reasonable :(
[14:02:54] <jthornton> skunkworks: can I e-mail the cover to you to drill the holes?
[14:03:08] <cpresser> meant :)
[15:08:35] <JT-Work_> JT-Work_ is now known as JT-Work
[15:20:02] <jthornton> oh boy I get to use fixture offsets in a program....
[15:20:10] <jthornton> skunkworks: http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/johnplctech/Bridgeport%20308%20VMC/BP308-22.jpg
[15:20:20] <jthornton> near windows are new
[15:21:11] <jthornton> * jthornton wanders back out to the shop
[15:22:41] <i_tarzan> emc powered?
[15:24:09] <ries_> ries_ is now known as ries
[15:25:02] <jthornton> not yet :)
[15:25:20] <jthornton> until the original control dies I'll use it...
[15:25:49] <jthornton> the rest of the machines in my shop are all EMC2 :)
[15:49:13] <Endeavour> Hello
[15:56:47] <micges> hi
[16:15:04] <psha> hi
[16:15:18] <psha> @dev
[16:16:28] <skunkworks> jthornton: Very Nice!
[16:18:41] <jthornton> thanks
[16:49:43] <petemckenna> Hello, any Lathe users out there?
[16:55:33] <petemckenna> .....or GWIZ or CP1 user / developers. I'm interested in finding / creating some wizardy or shortcut screens for the Lathe, and everything I've found seems to be Mill focused
[17:12:16] <IchGuckLive> Hi all from Germany
[17:23:20] <Fox_Muldr> hi again from germany :)
[17:35:02] <jthornton> petemckenna: I use a lathe
[17:37:53] <jthornton> I guess he left
[17:56:16] <Jymmm> jthornton: He's been asking for someone with a lathe for 24h, I'm sure he'll be back.
[17:57:05] <jthornton> ok, Jymmm just tell him to check the forum as well if you see him first
[17:57:52] <Jymmm> " petemckenna: Would anybody be able to give me some pointers on the Lathe sim setup?"
[17:59:12] <jthornton> well I finished the CRT hole cover so I'm off to take a nap :)
[17:59:21] <jthornton> for the LATHE!
[17:59:30] <Jymmm> jthornton: That jig idea I think is going to work nice. I've just been going through drill sizes to see what are good for clearance and what are good for screwing
[18:00:05] <jthornton> thanks, I've used that before for similar setups
[18:00:29] <Jymmm> #28 for drywall screws, and #21 or #20 for clearance
[18:00:58] <jthornton> coarse thread drywall screws?
[18:01:02] <Jymmm> Yes
[18:01:49] <Jymmm> I'm letting the test piece set with the screw in it right now, just in case it wants to split the MDF in 30m
[18:02:11] <jthornton> lots of bite on them... speaking of that the single flute Onsrud cutter cuts fast and deep when you bump it with your finger
[18:02:40] <jthornton> * jthornton wanders off to take a nap now
[18:02:42] <Jymmm> jthornton: Mine weren't THAT sharp, but I didn't test it either.
[18:03:28] <Jymmm> And I treat them like babies too =) at $86/ea you damn well right I treat them gently =)
[18:03:58] <Jymmm> jthornton: But damn if it doesn't do a wonderful job.
[18:11:17] <petemckenna> Hey, I'm back, anybody, work with any of the "wizard" tools on Lathe templates
[18:20:31] <Jymmm> petemckenna: You're too slow, he's gone. But he said "jthornton: ok, Jymmm just tell him to check the forum as well if you see him first"
[18:21:21] <Jymmm> jthornton: Hold off on the drill sizes, preliminary tests are not so fruitful, I'm seeing splitting.
[18:22:37] <petemckenna> Story of my life. So any particular part of the forum, I've search for all the GWIZ and CP1 stuff I could find, but it all seems mill based?
[18:23:15] <Jymmm> no clue, I never touch the stuff.
[18:27:15] <petemckenna> OK thanks
[18:39:02] <Mendel|mill> i am looking for someone with a Multicam router here, someone around ?
[18:41:28] <jthornton> petemckenna: you still around?
[18:41:49] <petemckenna> yep
[18:42:20] <jthornton> look in the forum in the subroutines sections. I placed several lathe ones there
[18:42:57] <petemckenna> I'll take a look, thanks
[18:44:01] <DaViruz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iY4tDtWP1xc
[18:44:02] <petemckenna> Are you BigJohnT there?
[18:44:04] <DaViruz> that's pretty fast
[18:45:27] <alSMT> is there a list of video cards that work good with emc somewhere?
[18:47:17] <petemckenna> I've had a few systems that don't both Nvidia I believe, don't know about a list
[18:56:07] <jthornton> petemckenna: yes
[18:56:24] <jthornton> neighbor was here
[18:57:00] <jthornton> petemckenna: I have an icon on my desktop for each operation like OD or boring etc so it is quick and easy for me
[18:57:27] <petemckenna> Yeah, that looks great, I'm getting it setup.
[18:58:13] <jthornton> Ok, I'll upload my final lathe taper one here in a second then I have to run to my neighbors to shoot and drink :)
[18:58:55] <jthornton> opps I need to turn the lathe on so I can get to the file
[18:59:56] <petemckenna> Cool thanks
[19:01:47] <Jymmm> jthornton: SUI == Shooting under the influence?
[19:02:27] <Jymmm> unless it's shooting shooters =)
[19:04:47] <Jymmm> 'Buckshot' would be a good name for a drink.
[19:04:56] <Jymmm> It's a kick in the ass!
[19:15:12] <WalterN> hmm
[19:15:49] <WalterN> did anybody see my conversation with micges?
[19:21:32] <WalterN> is there something on linuxcnc.org that talks about the basic systems needed to build your own lathe/mill from scratch?
[19:25:43] <jthornton> petemckenna: there you go it is uploaded
[19:36:12] <WalterN> meh
[19:36:25] <WalterN> I'm not seeing any useful information on the website
[19:36:55] <jthornton__> jthornton__ is now known as jthornton
[19:38:04] <skunkworks> WalterN: what are you asking?
[19:40:21] <WalterN> skunkworks: the best way to put it is I dont know enough to ask the proper questions.. I want to build my own CNC table top mill (with servos) but dont know where to start as far as the electronics go
[19:40:47] <skunkworks> ah
[19:41:04] <WalterN> well
[19:41:12] <WalterN> I do know that I want to use emc ;)
[19:42:02] <WalterN> but thats about it.. heh
[19:42:17] <skunkworks> heh - that's a start
[19:42:50] <skunkworks> when you say servos - do you mean something step/dir like gecko drives?
[19:43:06] <WalterN> not sure what you mean
[19:43:59] <WalterN> on the C-axes lathe that I used to work with, on the spindle it had a big disk with slots cut out behind the driving servo
[19:44:16] <WalterN> like those optical trackball mice
[19:44:27] <petemckenna> WalterN: have you checked out cnczone.com. There is a DIY Mill section that might be helpfull to you
[19:44:41] <petemckenna> I'll see if I can find the link
[19:44:54] <skunkworks> that is a good start.
[19:45:12] <WalterN> so would I need something like that for each axes?
[19:45:28] <WalterN> guess it would depend on the servo?
[19:45:29] <WalterN> heh
[19:46:29] <skunkworks> yes. the servo is going to have atleast some sort of postion feedback. be it encoder, resolver or linear scale. (or some combo)
[19:46:55] <skunkworks> the very basic setup would have an encoder mounted to the servo.
[19:48:14] <WalterN> what is typically used for the bigger (expensive) industrial mills?
[19:48:30] <WalterN> or lathe
[19:48:54] <skunkworks> encoders and or linear scales.
[19:48:57] <skunkworks> usually
[19:51:12] <WalterN> and from the incoder, it just gets wired directly into a few of the pins of the serial port that emc uses?
[19:51:39] <skunkworks> well - you could use the printer port... (not serial)
[19:52:05] <WalterN> the printer port is not serial?
[19:52:15] <skunkworks> but if you are going to do real closed loop control - I would go with hardware from mesa
[19:52:31] <skunkworks> no - it is parallel
[19:52:40] <WalterN> oh, ok
[19:53:53] <skunkworks> printer port works good for step/dir setups - Open loop. or step servos where the loop is closed at the servo drive. Emc has the abillity to close the loop within emc. more like an industrial control.
[19:55:02] <WalterN> what do you mean by open or closed loop?
[20:01:30] <petemckenna> WalterN: sorry if I'm talking out of turn, but closed loop, means there is feedback from some source like an encoder or linear scales, open is generally what you have with steppers where you say go x steps, and then hope it is able to do so, but there's no feedback, so no way for the machine to know if it got to where it was commanded.
[20:01:52] <WalterN> oh, ok
[20:03:01] <skunkworks> right - step servos are the same way. emc would say - go this many steps - but it doesn't acutally know if it happened.
[20:04:03] <skunkworks> if you use emc as the closed loop control - emc says go this far - and reads the encoders to control the speed and position -and knows that it is 'there'
[20:04:31] <WalterN> petemckenna: I'm not really seeing that thing on cnczone...
[20:30:23] <WalterN> mesa electronics... what would I want from there?
[20:30:39] <WalterN> http://www.mesanet.com/
[20:30:45] <pjm> WalterN u would want a proper motion controller card from there
[20:31:23] <Jymmm> anything I/O I believe
[20:32:15] <Jymmm> I dont see the 7i20 which I think is what ppl are using
[20:33:34] <Jymmm> ok, I must be wrong as it's not even in the price list
[20:34:32] <Jymmm> maybe it was the 5i20 and the 7i60
[20:39:05] <WalterN> what would you want the 7i60 for?
[20:39:17] <Jymmm> More I/O I believe
[20:39:30] <tom3p> WalterN decide stepper vs servo first. do you want a system that verifies that it did what you asked ( servo/closed ) or one that just asks for motion to happen and depends on a usually reliable device to do whats asked?( stepper/open )
[20:40:16] <WalterN> tom3p: proper servo control
[20:40:20] <Jymmm> 4 axis + limits + home + spindle + blower + coolant + coffee maker + whatever else you have room for =)
[20:40:34] <WalterN> Jymmm: lol..
[20:40:43] <WalterN> alarm clock
[20:40:47] <WalterN> heh
[20:41:01] <Jymmm> dont need an alarm clock if you have enough coffee
[20:41:33] <Jymmm> Or yeah on a servo you need the extra for the encoders too
[20:43:11] <WalterN> limits... a switch at the end of the travel for that axes?
[20:43:37] <Jymmm> Yes, hard limits.
[20:44:23] <WalterN> hmm
[20:44:40] <WalterN> so that IO card, then I need servo drivers?
[20:44:41] <tom3p> an example of m5i20 servo setup from anders wallin http://www.anderswallin.net/2008/09/servo-setup/
[20:45:18] <Jymmm> WalterN: I really know nothing about mesa, just what I can recall from other's conversations.
[20:47:19] <WalterN> tom3p: and emc can use that card?
[20:48:19] <tom3p> yes, be aware, there's eventually newer stuff and implementations that vary from what you need/want
[20:48:34] <Jymmm> JT-Work: Ok, I stand corrected... #28 for the screw, just be sure to step drill deeper than the screw will go (#27 just strips the threads).
[20:48:35] <tom3p> (to keep it clear.... yes )
[20:49:01] <WalterN> hmm
[20:50:19] <WalterN> what kind of servo and incoder do I want?
[20:53:15] <Jymmm> JT-Work: Did more tests... 1/2" thread depth is NOT enough to bite. Need at least 1" of screw into the material to prevent from stripping out.
[20:53:42] <petemckenna> WalterN: I misspoke there isn't a DIY Metalworking forum, there are threads on such, but I can't find a good servo based one at the moment. You may want to look at mill retrofits. They have all the same drive questions and concerns you will. There are many more stepper than servo projects it seems.
[20:54:58] <tom3p> WalterN you can throw loads of money at that point. try to satisfy the physics first ( size, power, torque ) then argue your needs to your wallet :)
[20:55:55] <tom3p> deciding whats 'enuf' is artsy... often its good to look at similar mechanisms and get tech data from the devices you see in use
[20:56:09] <petemckenna> For servos, as an alternative to Mesa, you can check this out. http://www.embeddedtronics.com/uhuservo.html there's a thread on it's progress on cnczone too. It's a homemade servo driver. http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14217 I think Gecko makes a servo board too, not sure on EMC support, anybody know?
[20:56:50] <tom3p> on another idea.. about PKMs , the company INA has a great file describing components they use http://www.schaeffler.com/remotemedien/media/_shared_media/library/downloads/mai66_de_gb.pdf
[20:57:34] <WalterN> the omni-turn lathe I used to work with had 300IPM rapid, suppose I could look at the replacement servos to get a good idea...
[20:58:50] <tom3p> mesa doesnt sell motors or encoders, but they do sell controllers for the amplifiers that listen to encoders and command motion to motors ( they have interfaces between emc2 and servo motor-drivers )
[21:00:10] <WalterN> http://www.omni-turn.com/ballscrewparts.htm
[21:00:12] <WalterN> meh
[21:00:16] <WalterN> it does not really say
[21:00:18] <tom3p> the emc2 bone connects to the interfacebone, the interfacebone connects to the driverbone, the driverbone connected to the motor-enocoderbone, the motorencoderbine connected to the jointbone
[21:02:25] <tom3p> WalterN, is the omni-turn similar to the machine you want to use emc2 on? then what they used can be be good info
[21:02:54] <WalterN> I was using it as a reference point is all...
[21:04:52] <WalterN> it would be nice to have more travel, but it seems to me that the power/speed would be good for what I want
[21:05:50] <WalterN> but its not saying what the servo specs are :/
[21:06:30] <tom3p> my connection here drops out a lot, so i dont have details about your project. just an idea, can you get to the Fest in WIchita to see EMC on some real machines?
[21:06:50] <WalterN> http://www.omniturn.com/bin/RepairParts/rp_x&z_axis_components.htm
[21:07:02] <WalterN> huh?
[21:07:07] <WalterN> where is that?
[21:10:00] <WalterN> tom3p: where is that at?
[21:10:16] <skunkworks> wichita kansas
[21:10:41] <WalterN> when?
[21:17:57] <tom3p> heh Wichita, KS on November 12-15., http://www.mpm1.com/index.html
[21:20:01] <WalterN> ooo
[21:21:13] <WalterN> tom3p: and emc will have a table there?
[21:22:57] <tom3p> they will have access to the entire buidling ( thanks to Stuart ), its emc2 only
[21:23:42] <skunkworks> I went to the last one. lots of eye candy - large machines and stuff
[21:23:52] <tom3p> ( edited damn wiki so when and where are on the same page )
[21:24:12] <skunkworks> he has a few large machining centers converted to emc2
[21:24:27] <tom3p> yeh, its a chance to see real stuff done with emc. real jobs making money (kaching)
[21:24:45] <WalterN> neato
[21:24:50] <WalterN> maybe
[21:25:01] <WalterN> I wonder how much it is for a plane ticket
[21:25:51] <andypugh> I checked. The answer is "Lots"
[21:26:42] <skunkworks> andypugh: http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/yaxis/adaptfinal.JPG
[21:26:54] <skunkworks> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/yaxis/adaptfinal2.JPG
[21:27:28] <WalterN> are there pictures around of the last one?
[21:28:02] <andypugh> It looks very long, what connects to that flange thingy?
[21:29:45] <skunkworks> hmm - not that I know of.. this was from a few years ago.. sort of a mini mini fest. (only the developers where there) http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/cgi-bin/blosxom/shoptask/wichita-trip-02-20-08.html
[21:30:12] <andypugh> Wichita is £432 flying via Ottowa and O'Hare. I think you can add me to the list of "not going to be there" folk.
[21:30:16] <skunkworks> flange thing? the aluminum end? It is a 'spine' that fits on a gear
[21:30:56] <WalterN> neat
[21:31:00] <andypugh> OK, then being so long is irrelevant.
[21:31:49] <WalterN> if I fly in from montana, does somebody want to cart me around?
[21:32:21] <andypugh> You could walk it (if you started now)
[21:33:13] <tom3p> stuarts' cinci driven by emc2, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxxdq6y8z8M (the emc2 version of starwars' AT-AT)
[21:36:03] <WalterN> o.0
[21:36:06] <WalterN> big machine
[21:36:08] <WalterN> want
[21:37:56] <skunkworks> goes though all of this - http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/yaxis/adaptors.JPG
[21:38:27] <skunkworks> the big drum looking thing near the servo is the brake. (our y axis is vertical)
[21:38:43] <L84Supper> is anyone going to Manufacturing Week just outside Chicago? http://www.eventseye.com/fairs/f-manufacturing-week-1760-1.html
[21:39:00] <L84Supper> this Tuesday to Thursday
[21:41:45] <L84Supper> http://www.canontradeshows.com/expo/atexpo10/ Assembly & Automation Technology Expo plus the ~5 other shows
[21:42:22] <WalterN> I'd love to go to another show
[21:42:37] <WalterN> only been to one once in Portland oregon
[21:44:25] <WalterN> I wonder what kind of servos are used in the haas TL1
[21:46:35] <WalterN> http://www.haascnc.com/specs.asp?ID=TL-1&mdl=TL-1&webid=LATHE_TL#CNCLatheTreeModel
[21:48:26] <WalterN> that seems a (fair) bit more than I would need :P
[21:49:18] <andypugh> Nice lathe on eBay, by the way. (Old, manual). It has a slant-bed and covered leadscrews) and would be a nice conversion (but then a conversion would be a bit of a shame too). http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280564576821
[21:53:01] <WalterN> tom3p: still there?
[21:57:52] <tom3p> WalterN, hello
[21:58:19] <tom3p> L84Supper, just registered for the automation show
[21:58:48] <WalterN> tom3p: it seems like the X,Z axes on the omni-turn is 300lbs of thrust
[21:59:05] <WalterN> tom3p: but its not too specific
[21:59:34] <WalterN> and rapids are 300 in/min
[22:00:01] <WalterN> but that would depend on the ballscrew used too
[22:00:18] <skunkworks> only 300 lbs? seems small
[22:00:28] <WalterN> http://omni-turn.com/gt75specs.htm
[22:00:34] <WalterN> its a small machine
[22:01:03] <skunkworks> ah
[22:01:35] <skunkworks> I think I calculated our machine as 4 tons of force :)
[22:01:41] <WalterN> I think the same thing would be enough for my machine
[22:02:00] <skunkworks> if I did it right
[22:02:34] <tom3p> heh beware of stuff written by salesmen to impress buyers ( make that ignore or burn )
[22:03:05] <WalterN> so how much would servos cost that would be about the same?
[22:04:54] <skunkworks> you need to pick your ball screws and reduction - and calculate backwards to get in-oz of force - then you can figure out what servos you need.
[22:05:10] <tom3p> ballparks ... look here for something suitable ( i cant translate 300#force into kilowatt but in my experience most euro machines are kw ) http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Motion_Control/Servo_Systems
[22:05:40] <tom3p> gottago
[22:07:09] <WalterN> $500 for a 400watt servo?
[22:16:53] <WalterN> skunkworks: how do you do that?
[22:22:28] <andypugh> WalterN: http://www.dmm-tech.com/Pricing.html
[22:23:41] <andypugh> And nobody can convert lb.f into kW, they measure different things.
[22:23:54] <WalterN> oh nice
[22:25:56] <andypugh> I don't know anything about them, but the price looks good.
[22:26:56] <WalterN> nice looking kits too
[22:27:09] <WalterN> http://www.dmm-tech.com/sitebuilder/images/7p2Nmx4-AllPicture-596x427.jpg
[22:27:33] <WalterN> $1,600
[22:29:41] <andypugh> You would need to be sure that they can work to a PWM or analogue voltage control signal.
[22:31:22] <WalterN> I thought all servos used a PWM signal
[22:31:40] <WalterN> to determine RPM
[22:32:44] <andypugh> The motors do, yes (though you could do it other ways). I was meaning for the communication between EMC2 and the drives.
[22:36:49] <WalterN> oh, ok
[22:53:14] <andypugh> Night all