#emc | Logs for 2010-09-22

[00:01:35] <tom3p> :) i only learned 1 swear word, and have since forgot it thru disuse
[00:02:01] <tom3p> look for the StudioDesignPKM app too
[00:04:16] <theorb> theorb is now known as theorbtwo
[00:05:05] <MattyMatt> blender has all the kinematics I need, it just needs a UI more suited to building mechanisms
[00:05:28] <MattyMatt> it looks so easy in TopSolid compared to blender
[01:15:09] <Valen> * Valen is a rocket scientist
[01:15:14] <Valen> well space scientist anyway
[01:15:20] <Valen> but I work in IT :-<
[03:19:22] <Valen> what type of rail is this using ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mineral_casting.jpg
[03:21:09] <ckingsbury> Valen: how specific an answer are you looking for?
[03:21:27] <Valen> what should i google for to find some details about it
[03:21:49] <Valen> I have seen round linear rails and bearings but their load rating is pretty low
[03:24:53] <ckingsbury> hmm... I've heard them all referred to as "linear bearings"... linear rails might be a little more specific
[03:33:43] <Valen> I was looking for the name of the ones with the angles rather than a round
[03:38:02] <L84Supper> Valen: what kind of loads do you need?
[03:38:11] <L84Supper> http://www.techno-isel.com/tic/quote/TechnoRail_A.htm
[03:38:13] <Valen> hopefully milling steel
[03:40:54] <L84Supper> the dovetail rails/guides in that pic are rather small
[03:46:52] <Valen> dunno what that pic is for
[03:47:50] <L84Supper> http://www.nookindustries.com/profilerail/ProfileRailHome.cfm they have some pretty heavy duty stuff
[03:48:42] <morfic> http://www.linearmotion.skf.com//home.aspx?lang=en&cou=8
[03:49:03] <morfic> i am not sure where our designer ordered the rails from for the tail stock
[03:49:10] <L84Supper> larger rails with ratings to ~32 tons, that should be rigid enough
[03:49:27] <morfic> http://www.deltron.com/
[03:49:43] <morfic> linear ways <-- probably best terms to use for google
[03:49:45] <L84Supper> yeah skf, danaher, many more
[03:49:56] <morfic> Valen: ^
[03:50:49] <morfic> still not sure about this "let's machine the tail stock, so we can move it on linear ways" idea, but that's not my decision
[03:55:39] <L84Supper> THK is probably the biggest http://www.thk.com/us/products/index.html
[04:03:49] <L84Supper> Valen: I'm using some of these ball screw actuators that use similar rails to machine steel http://www.parkermotion.com/products/Ball_Screw_and_Lead_Screw_Tables__5508__30_32_80_567_29.html
[04:04:21] <Valen> but this machine http://www.hermle.de/ablage/med_00000101_1225117081_C20_EN_2008.pdf http://www.myvideo.de/watch/4107844/5_Achs_Bearbeitung_auf_Hermle_C40U uses them to pretty good effect
[04:04:38] <Valen> thing is I can get the round ones *really* cheap
[04:05:54] <Valen> 8 x supported rail SBR25-600mm long 16 x SBR blocks to suit 299 usd
[04:05:55] <Valen> 4x RM2505-600mm ballscrew with ends machined to suit bearing blocks 279 usd
[04:05:55] <Valen> 8x bearing block BK/BF15 sets, 4BK12 x fixed 4xBF12 supported style 136 usd
[04:05:55] <Valen> Sub-total: 714 usd
[04:05:55] <Valen> Air shipping: 343usd
[04:05:55] <Valen> Total: 1057 usd
[04:06:14] <Valen> thats for 25mm rails and ballscrews
[04:10:30] <L84Supper> check the load rating
[04:10:40] <Valen> yeah, pretty light is the down side
[04:10:46] <Valen> just looking for it now
[04:11:03] <L84Supper> there are dry bearing versions as well
[04:11:43] <Valen> we are using ballscrews from this guy to good effect http://shop.ebay.com.au/linearmotionbearings2008/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=
[04:12:31] <Valen> basic load rating is c 100 and co 160 kgf
[04:12:35] <L84Supper> http://www.igus.com/Main_fs.asp?KATALOG=XIGLIDUR&GO=IGLIDUR_EXPERTE&language=usen&Unit=I
[04:14:15] <L84Supper> use the calculator to see what type of life you'll get
[04:27:06] <elmo40> ichudov: you using ubuntu? a simple way to install Heeks is with this: https://m21.hyte.de/blog/category/cnc
[04:36:43] <elmo40> I sorta upgraded my computer over the weekend :) I have an Intel i5 quad core, 4gb DDR3 RAM, dual nVidia 8600GT in SLI
[06:03:08] <rob_melb_> rob_melb_ is now known as rob_melb
[06:21:44] <Jymmm> elmo40: That's it? Eeeeesh, I have that much power in the calculator I just bought for $0.99
[06:30:39] <Valen> I have 8gb ram and one 8800
[06:33:39] <Valen> q6600 though not the I5
[06:34:37] <MattyMatt> X2, 2GB and 9500GT here. that's 3 of us who can run Cuda
[06:35:20] <Valen> EMC for cuda = FTW?
[06:35:21] <MattyMatt> not that we need it for emc2 yet, but it's nice to know it's there :)
[06:35:48] <MattyMatt> naah to be honest, I can't think of a single use
[06:36:07] <MattyMatt> maybe a voxelated simulation in the axis display
[06:37:31] <Valen> that'd be cool
[06:37:37] <Valen> actually that'd be really cool
[06:37:43] <Valen> wouldn't even need to be voxelated
[06:37:55] <Valen> means you can use sim to check for gouges and such
[06:38:03] <MattyMatt> yep
[06:38:04] <Valen> bbl
[06:38:30] <MattyMatt> FEA on it too, so you can check it doesn't overheat
[06:39:49] <MattyMatt> this probably all belongs at the CAM stage, so maybe real time isn't vital
[06:42:37] <Jymmm> * Jymmm has a 486DX50 with 8MB ram and monochrome CRT!
[06:42:56] <micges_work> * micges_work is jealous
[06:43:37] <Jymmm> Ok I lied, I only have the monochrome/paraport 8bit ISA CARD, not the CRT (anymore)
[06:44:04] <Jymmm> But, it does have 3.5" and 5.25" FDD's
[07:20:28] <alex_joni> this is a nice taxonomy for rap-names: http://i.imgur.com/RXRGd.jpg
[07:35:41] <Jymmm> I am going to have to try this as soon as I get fully setup http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2009/05/25/adafruit-business-cards-laser-cut-spirograph-cards/
[08:18:59] <alex_joni> Jymmm: very cool
[11:17:33] <alex_joni> what's the 'width' in slot cutting?
[11:43:07] <cradek> I would understand the width of a slot to be the short dimension - if cutting a slot with an end mill in one pass, the slot width would be the end mill's diameter
[11:44:51] <alex_joni> cradek: I mean here: http://git.linuxcnc.org/gitweb?p=emc2.git;a=blob;f=nc_files/useful-subroutines.ngc;h=7aa1903704f2872ae6c295d5fea0f15e52ef92ce;hb=HEAD#l39
[11:55:38] <Colinb> alex_joni you around? got a couple of questions regarding the robot stuff if you have a minute
[11:56:13] <AlbertNe> robotic, nice topic
[11:56:27] <Valen> Colinb: your best off asking a question
[11:56:30] <Valen> not asking to ask
[11:58:49] <alex_joni> indeed
[12:19:49] <Colinb> you mentioned a while ago that emc needed modding to make it work properly with robot arms
[12:20:31] <Colinb> iv got myself a fanuc 420i arm and im currently hooking some servo drives upto it so i can play with it in emc
[12:27:30] <alex_joni> Colinb: well.. there is still a fundamental change that is going on in emc2
[12:27:40] <alex_joni> currently the code is in joints_axes3 ( a separate branch )
[12:27:48] <alex_joni> but the regular branch could be good enough to run it
[12:28:38] <Colinb> what changes are needed?
[12:32:29] <alex_joni> a clean separation between joints and axes
[12:32:42] <alex_joni> j0,j1,j2,... vs. X,Y,Z,A,B,C...
[12:32:51] <Colinb> yeah
[12:33:18] <Colinb> how far along is the code?
[12:35:48] <Colinb> i do have a robot programing addon for delcam
[12:36:02] <Colinb> and i can output individual joint angles
[12:36:39] <alex_joni> it compiles, runs
[12:36:56] <Colinb> but to be able to feed it straight gcode would be nice
[12:37:42] <Colinb> ok
[12:37:57] <Colinb> so what are the changes making it do that it cant do already using the kinematics as they are?
[14:06:14] <ChanServ> [#emc] "This is the #emc channel - talk related to the Enhanced Machine Controller and general machining. Website: http://www.linuxcnc.org/, wiki at http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/"
[14:07:31] <skunkworks> it is funny going through my access logs for my website...
[14:07:52] <skunkworks> like this http://www.usinages.com/ca-c-est-du-changeur-d-outils-t942.html
[14:14:54] <cradek> wonder what he means by "decent DIY CNC" if max is "fairly expensive"
[14:17:28] <skunkworks> I don't think he knew what you used to make it.
[14:28:34] <skunkworks> cradek: did you see our broaching results?
[14:28:43] <cradek> skunkworks: nope
[14:29:16] <skunkworks> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/yaxis/adapt-a-broach.JPG
[14:29:38] <skunkworks> we pressed the metal gear though the aluminum ring.
[14:29:51] <cradek> cool!
[14:30:07] <cradek> did you grind the leading side flat?
[14:30:25] <cradek> (I see the teeth on this side are filleted)
[14:30:44] <skunkworks> yes - we ground the back side of the gear square.
[14:31:53] <cradek> what's it for?
[14:32:08] <skunkworks> it is how we are going to drive the y axis.
[14:32:39] <skunkworks> it is going to be one end of the 'flex' coupling between the y axis and the servo.
[14:33:19] <skunkworks> (working with what we have_
[14:33:19] <cradek> wild
[14:33:20] <skunkworks> )
[14:33:55] <skunkworks> it will allow for a little bit of disallignment. (still think I made up that word)
[14:34:08] <cradek> abalignment
[14:34:19] <Colinb> alex just about to build a spare rig to test and play with the ja3 stuff
[14:35:45] <skunkworks> it will be in an oil bath all its life - so I think it should work well. (for the minute movement it might have)
[14:36:14] <cradek> cool
[14:36:45] <cradek> keep your broach in a safe place, preferably attached to the machine...
[14:37:04] <skunkworks> :)
[14:38:15] <skunkworks> we tried to hard couple it - but the runout of the shaft we made was too much.
[14:38:33] <skunkworks> it was wishful thinking that it would all line up correctly :)
[14:39:49] <cradek> I'm currently having the same wishful thinking with the cnc A axis I'm building
[14:39:57] <cradek> we'll see how it turns out :-)
[14:41:37] <skunkworks> Neat!
[14:41:42] <skunkworks> what are you using?
[14:42:04] <cradek> putting a motor on a good 12" manual rotary table I've had for some time but never used
[14:42:14] <cradek> (what use is a manual rotary table?)
[14:42:27] <skunkworks> heh
[14:42:48] <cradek> heh you can see it where it's been stored for ages: http://timeguy.com/cradek-files/emc/jr.jpg
[14:43:14] <skunkworks> we have some large ones - works great for making circle when you don't have a cnc
[14:43:17] <skunkworks> :)
[14:43:32] <cradek> huh? I don't understand what you mean.
[14:43:51] <skunkworks> on the floor - on plywood? ;)
[14:43:58] <cradek> yes
[14:44:16] <cradek> I'm in the process of making it even heavier
[14:45:07] <skunkworks> heh - funny how that works out. - dad machined the adaptor that mounts the y axis servo - took out about 25lbs of cast and it still hurts to carry :)
[14:45:08] <cradek> I'm going to have to come up with a better way to lift it...
[14:45:35] <skunkworks> time for a gangtry crane in your shop :)
[14:45:57] <skunkworks> oh - you don't have the headroom
[14:46:19] <cradek> engine hoist would be fine, but I don't want to waste the space to store it
[14:47:28] <skunkworks> some sort of pier(sp) hoist?
[14:47:58] <cradek> what's that?
[14:48:22] <cradek> actually it's pretty ok for two people to lift - maybe I'll just continue to use that method
[14:50:37] <cradek> arg, maritool doesn't make 5C metrics
[14:53:19] <elmo40> cradek: I am so jealous of your lovely cnc mill... plus it will have a 4th? >_<
[14:53:52] <cradek> yep if it works out... either that or I'll be looking for a cnc rotary on ebay :-/
[14:54:31] <skunkworks> cradek: something like this - but not so expensive ;) http://cgi.ebay.com/Jib-Crane-H351-6-1812-3-ton-18w-138-h-20l-/350395865172?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5195389854
[14:55:25] <cradek> ah - cool
[14:55:35] <cradek> looks like it needs good floor attachment...
[14:56:41] <skunkworks> it is all reletive
[14:56:44] <skunkworks> :)
[14:57:02] <elmo40> yes, those rely on floor thickness. for 1000lb capacity with a throw of 10feet you need 3' deep concrete at a radius of 2' !
[14:57:54] <elmo40> we are about to add 5 of these in our shop. but 25' throw and 2000lb capacity. Insane the tube size! I can't hug it, that is for sure.
[14:58:45] <alSMT> was the sag fault of libcrypto.so on 10.04 do to lack of memory I have 516mb and axis won't run on the live cd for me either
[15:00:07] <elmo40> lack of memory? at 512?
[15:00:27] <cradek> alSMT: not enough information to guess what's wrong
[15:01:57] <alSMT> seems to be the same problem that others have had axis won't start do to sag fault of libcrypto
[15:02:23] <alex_joni> jepler noticed it happens for some python users on 10.04, not only emc2
[15:02:34] <alex_joni> maybe there's a bugreport at launchpad?
[15:02:59] <elmo40> I keep on having the 'file system locked' issue. when I close Axis I can not run anything else, nor click to shut the computer off.
[15:03:19] <alSMT> yes anyone find any help for it?
[15:04:01] <alSMT> i'll ck launchpad
[15:04:39] <alex_joni> alSMT: try renaming it and see if AXIS starts up then
[15:05:43] <alSMT> on live_cd
[15:07:33] <alex_joni> you can there too
[15:08:11] <alSMT> ok I'll give it a try
[15:10:23] <alex_joni> hmm.. another thought would be to install libcrypto++8 from universe.. maybe it replaces libcrypto which segfaults
[15:12:05] <alSMT> can that be done using livecd
[15:12:29] <alSMT> i hate to install if it wont run
[15:14:59] <alSMT> here we go
[15:17:45] <alex_joni> yes
[15:21:39] <elmo40> cradek: interesting location for the probe. can't put it in the tool carousel?
[15:22:13] <cradek> I couldn't then - it's in the carousel now
[16:12:42] <skunkworks> cradek: are you going to use the amc drive for the 4th axis?
[16:12:51] <cradek> skunkworks: yes
[16:13:03] <skunkworks> Neat!
[16:13:09] <cradek> already tested, even
[16:14:08] <skunkworks> that was with encoder velocity setup? (within the amc drive)
[16:14:27] <cradek> the motor I'm going to use has a tachometer (and no encoder unfortunately)
[16:14:57] <cradek> I haven't decided whether I'm going to put the encoder (resolver really) on the worm or the rotating table itself
[16:15:16] <cradek> it will have a tiny bit of backlash but in velocity mode I think I could still tune it fine
[16:15:26] <skunkworks> yes
[16:15:33] <skunkworks> that should be fun
[16:15:49] <cradek> I wonder how "linear" my resolver is (can a rotating device be linear?)
[16:16:18] <cradek> I think with elson's board I get 8192 counts/rev
[16:16:25] <skunkworks> I think that is something you try not to think about and assume that jone's converter just works ;)
[16:16:58] <cradek> well I could pretty easily test it (against jr's ballscrews)
[16:17:28] <cradek> set it on the table horizontal - bore a hole in something - mount off center - rotate axis - probe hole - repeat
[16:18:15] <cradek> actually I have a good bore standard. surely it's quite round - I would use that for the 'hole'
[16:19:44] <cradek> I could even generate a comp table for it that way!
[16:19:53] <skunkworks> right!
[16:20:13] <skunkworks> let you know if your gear is consistant
[16:20:16] <skunkworks> also
[16:21:19] <cradek> I'd test small increments over 4 degrees for worm error, and then maybe every 4 degrees for gear error
[16:21:43] <cradek> I bet there are both kinds of error - it would be cool if we could code periodic errors into our comp tables
[16:22:01] <cradek> well I might have resolver error too... hmmm
[16:22:43] <cradek> but if I put the resolver on the table itself, I'd be measuring only resolver error
[16:24:16] <skunkworks> hmm - yah - I think you don't know if it is resolver vs worm gear - but you would know the ring gear error.
[16:24:38] <cradek> well depends where the resolver is
[16:24:50] <cradek> you can test just the resolver if you put it in the center of the table
[16:25:13] <cradek> resolver, worm, ring errors combine if you put the resolver on the worm
[16:29:36] <cradek> hm, 8192 isn't much resolution - each count is .005 at the outside of the table
[16:30:03] <cradek> I better put it on the worm
[16:31:21] <cradek> 6 * (2pi/8192)
[16:33:21] <awallin_> fired up the old pcb mill today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Pi5gnrcf1c
[16:35:41] <cradek> neato
[16:36:19] <cradek> some kind of socket?
[16:36:58] <elmo40> hpgl format? so it is technically a plotter?
[16:38:39] <Jymmm> awallin_: did you make that beast?
[16:39:21] <awallin_> it's made by LPKF in 1994 I think
[16:39:35] <awallin_> stepper motors with round-bar type rails
[16:39:54] <Jymmm> awallin_: JEEBUS, the table and rails on it are huge!
[16:40:26] <elmo40> that is huge? interesting.
[16:40:40] <Jymmm> For PCB, yep
[16:40:41] <awallin_> huh?
[16:40:54] <awallin_> the working area is A4 or 210x297mm
[16:40:57] <awallin_> http://cgi.ebay.com/LPKF-PROTOMAT-C30-S-PRINTED-CIRCUIT-CARD-PLOTTER-SYSTEM-/320592019966
[16:41:19] <Jymmm> 1" thick table
[16:41:37] <awallin_> that ebay one must be a newer model, but otherwise roughly the same
[16:41:58] <Jymmm> The only plastic I see is the cords
[16:42:04] <Jymmm> and the hose
[16:42:42] <Jymmm> Heh, that auction is local to me
[16:43:53] <awallin_> this looks like their current model http://www.lpkfusa.com/protomat/h100.htm
[16:45:29] <Jymmm> Ah, THAT one I've seen before
[16:52:46] <Jymmm> Ina DIY PCB mill, has anyone come up with some kinda of automatic tool changer design?
[17:35:17] <IchGuckLive> hi all
[17:55:44] <Fox_Muldr> does anyone know a windows x server with hardware opengl acceleration which could remote display the emc axis gui? or maybe software opengl but this should work quite fluid than. i tried cygwin but the x-server is really slow in updating the 3d view. and xming doesn't show the axis window at all
[18:00:57] <cpresser> Fox_Muldr: http://connectivity.opentext.com/products/exceed-3d.aspx
[18:01:49] <cpresser> I used it for display of scientific data via opengl. of course, it is not free :(
[18:01:56] <skunkworks> what! for pay? ;)
[18:03:58] <skunkworks> what about http://www.calcmaster.net/visual-c++/xwinlogon/
[18:04:07] <skunkworks> (just doing a search) says opengl
[18:05:02] <Fox_Muldr> thanks, i will try it :)
[18:05:19] <cpresser> yes, but the one difference is that only exceed does render openGL on your graphics hardware
[18:05:25] <cpresser> all others use mesa3d
[18:06:31] <cpresser> but its expensive :(
[18:06:47] <cpresser> but even non-free software has its uses
[18:07:27] <skunkworks> :) I come from the windows side... so I know :(
[18:34:29] <Jymmm> JT-Hardinge: ping? JT-Work ping?
[18:36:17] <Jymmm> JT-Hardinge: JT-Work This is on sale (with coupon) for $59.99 (not the 79.99 listed here) http://www.harborfreight.com/1250-lb-capacity-mechanical-wheel-dolly-67287.html?utm_source=prospects&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=3810B
[20:26:27] <Anon9782345> Anyone recommend a source for
[20:26:39] <Anon9782345> tapered ball/bull nose bits
[20:26:55] <cradek> you can't find them cheap unfortunately
[20:26:56] <Anon9782345> (For release angles on sand cast patterns)
[20:27:00] <cradek> msc probably
[20:27:02] <Anon9782345> Not looking for cheap
[20:27:14] <Anon9782345> I get some from precisebits.com
[20:27:33] <Anon9782345> they have a 5.6, 3.? taper bits
[20:27:44] <Anon9782345> (Those are the half-angle degrees)
[20:28:07] <cradek> http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/GSDRVSM?PMTYPE=KEY&SISMNO=17108998&SIPCNO=0000000718&SIZZNO=65595119&SIS0NO=1506388&SISHNO=0&SISRC=KG&SISRCH=1&SILEVL=3&SILSEQ=1&SIT4NO=94229428
[20:28:13] <cradek> on the off chance that url will work...
[20:28:53] <cradek> around $30-100 each
[20:40:55] <Anon9782345> yea
[20:40:57] <Anon9782345> I'm seing that.
[20:43:05] <Anon9782345> http://www.precisebits.com/products/carbidebits/taperedcarve250b4f.asp
[22:51:57] <JT-Hardinge> Jymmm: that is a car dolly not much use for moving machines I suspect
[22:58:06] <JT-Hardinge> Jymmm: a buddy gave me some turtles the other day anyway