#emc | Logs for 2010-09-04

[00:02:42] <andypugh> PCW: PM down there...
[00:04:37] <theorb> theorb is now known as theorbtwo
[00:11:03] <skunkworks> so - if I measure 140v across any of the three phases - Will I get 140v*1.414 for the dc peak? (197v ish)
[00:11:23] <skunkworks> or is 3 phase different...
[00:11:42] <skunkworks> ( I would think rms volatage is rms voltage - and I will just get less ripple)
[00:11:58] <andypugh> No, it's not RMS for 3-phase
[00:12:37] <andypugh> You need to allow for the RMS of each phase, and the 120 degrees (you never measure one phase at max against another at min)
[00:13:07] <skunkworks> google has failed me. What peak will I get then?
[00:14:07] <andypugh> Google failed me too.
[00:14:11] <skunkworks> heh
[00:14:59] <Valen> 3 phase is higher voltage i believe
[00:16:17] <skunkworks> this says it is rms * 1.414
[00:16:18] <skunkworks> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090102225708AAS2PQ6
[00:16:28] <Valen> yeah that sounds right
[00:16:31] <andypugh> DC range is probably measured * sqrt(2) * 1.154
[00:16:53] <Valen> my gut is telling me that 3 phase is the same voltage if you bridge rectify it
[00:17:02] <Valen> for some reason my brain is saying different
[00:17:42] <andypugh> No, certainly not.
[00:18:02] <Valen> ahh thats what it is
[00:19:12] <Valen> are you talking about 110V or 240V systems?
[00:19:18] <DaViruz_> the voltage difference between two phases 120 degrees apart is rms * sqrt(3), and also sinus
[00:19:22] <andypugh> Answer two in that link is closer, but too high
[00:20:02] <andypugh> So, rail-to-rail is?
[00:20:18] <Valen> http://www.animations.physics.unsw.edu.au/jw/power.html
[00:20:20] <andypugh> I know I worked out i need about 600V to make 440V
[00:20:25] <DaViruz_> so it kind of depends of if tha voltage per phase is 415V or of the combined voltage is 415V
[00:21:30] <Valen> ahh here we go http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rectifier
[00:21:32] <skunkworks> andypugh: wait - what are you talking about? I am wondering what voltage I will get if I full wave rectify 140v 3 phase with 6 diodes and some caps.
[00:21:50] <DaViruz_> i'd say the first answer is correct assuming that the differential voltage between the phases is specified
[00:21:57] <Valen> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:3_phase_rectification_2.png
[00:22:11] <andypugh> I think you get 140V * sqrt(2) * 1.3
[00:22:48] <Valen> I reckon you will get the same vout you would see rectifying a single phase, it'll just have less ripple
[00:23:27] <DaViruz_> it also depends on how you rectify it
[00:23:37] <andypugh> I think that diagram is wrong, is seems to be assuming a neutral.
[00:23:49] <DaViruz_> if you rectify against neutral you getlower voltage than if you rectify between phases
[00:23:53] <DaViruz_> yeah.
[00:24:39] <andypugh> I managed to get 625V dc rectifying 230V single phase...
[00:24:51] <andypugh> (Using a voltage doubler circuit)
[00:25:23] <Valen> the neutral ties togther the 3 phases
[00:25:30] <andypugh> But I am now clear that I have been answering the wrong question :)
[00:26:01] <Valen> for a rectified system like that neutral shouldn't come into play, assuming the phase to phase voltage stays the same
[00:26:37] <andypugh> I was talking about absolute rail-to-rail range, which your rectifier doesn't get to do. You should just get 197VDC
[00:26:41] <DaViruz_> yes it does, compare with star and delta connections
[00:26:45] <PCW> I would think you would just get sqrt(2) * 140V
[00:27:11] <Valen> DaViruz_: you make a bridge rectifier like that then
[00:27:33] <DaViruz_> yes, you can make bridge rectifiers using the same two principles
[00:27:40] <Valen> skunkworks: the simple answer to be truly correct is spend $3 on some diodes and go from there ;->
[00:27:54] <andypugh> To make your waveform from scratch you would need +130 and -130 V
[00:28:05] <skunkworks> I have 3 phase
[00:28:18] <DaViruz_> the voltage between two phases is sqrt(3) times the voltage of a single phase against neutral
[00:28:28] <DaViruz_> and the peak voltage is the rms voltage * sqrt(2)
[00:28:31] <skunkworks> Well - we are hooking up some amc drives that take 3 phase in.
[00:28:37] <DaViruz_> nothing confusing about it
[00:28:54] <skunkworks> they have full wave rectifiers in them + filtering
[00:29:30] <skunkworks> I was just wondering if the effective dc voltage is close to what I wanted - Aprox 200v
[00:29:45] <skunkworks> If I was really energetic - I would open it up and measrue it. :)
[00:30:08] <Valen> I reckons it be that voltage
[00:31:01] <DaViruz_> skunkworks: what is the voltage of a single phase, measured relative to neutral?
[00:32:07] <andypugh> DaViruz_: Well, it is a little confusing :-) On those diagrams peak phase-to-phase is 1.5 units, and RMS phase-to-phase is 1.06 units. Full range is 2 units.
[00:32:09] <DaViruz_> or between two phases, anything works as long as it's clear how it was measured
[00:33:09] <DaViruz_> which diagrams are you referring to?
[00:34:00] <andypugh> http://www.animations.physics.unsw.edu.au/jw/power.html
[00:34:14] <andypugh> Or any other similar diagram.
[00:34:37] <DaViruz_> they only show voltage relative to neutral
[00:34:55] <DaViruz_> which is pretty useless since three phase rectifiers are usually connected between phases
[00:35:02] <DaViruz_> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Full-wave_rectifier3.png
[00:35:04] <DaViruz_> like so
[00:35:58] <andypugh> Yes, but you can count squares and see that peak phase-to-phase is 1.5x peak-to-neutral
[00:36:47] <DaViruz_> actually it's higher then that
[00:36:56] <andypugh> I am not clear what you would measure phase-to-phase with an RMS meter, as RMS assumes sinusoidal, and phase-to-phase isn't.
[00:36:58] <DaViruz_> you think it's highest when the other two phases intersect, it's not
[00:37:10] <DaViruz_> phase to phase is sinusodial
[00:37:46] <andypugh> Are you calling me stupid? Because I think you could do so with some justification.
[00:38:48] <andypugh> I grant you that the maximum differential is not where I assumed.
[00:39:01] <Valen> this crap is why I reckon all power distribution should be DC
[00:39:26] <DaViruz_> the maximum differential is sqrt(3)
[00:39:30] <andypugh> So I am minded to just take your word for phase-to-phase being sinusoidal :-)
[00:39:37] <DaViruz_> (which i stated some time ago)
[00:40:29] <Valen> andypugh: phase > phase will be sinusoidal, if you look at the graphs plotted against netural you can see that they cross, which means there would be 0 volts between them
[00:41:01] <andypugh> That is a necessary but not sufficient condition...
[00:41:07] <DaViruz_> so, assuming skunkworks is measuring a single phase, his peak voltage will be whatever*sqrt(3)*sqrt(2)
[00:41:38] <DaViruz_> again, assuming he uses a rectifier like this: http://www.esru.strath.ac.uk/EandE/Web_sites/08-09/Hydrogen_Buffering/Images/rectifier.jpg
[00:41:48] <DaViruz_> and not like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Half-wave_rectifier3.png
[00:42:43] <Valen> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:3_phase_rectification_2.png gives the output for both of those
[00:43:10] <DaViruz_> not really, it gives the same voltage level for both
[00:43:15] <PCW> I still think its just the RMS between phases * sqrt(2)
[00:43:29] <Valen> PCW i also believe that to be true
[00:43:52] <DaViruz_> yes, depending on the rectifier type..
[00:44:02] <Valen> your not going to get more volts out than the maximum that are coming in without doing some magic
[00:44:04] <DaViruz_> i'm fairly certain the wikipedia diagram is incorrect or at least unclear
[00:44:23] <andypugh> I agree
[00:44:56] <andypugh> It seems to be a neutral-referenced full-wave
[00:44:59] <Valen> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Waveform_halfwave_rectifier.png is the correct output for a half wave rectifier on a single phase yet?
[00:45:03] <DaViruz_> indeed.
[00:45:20] <Valen> if you stick one diode onto mains thats what your going to get
[00:45:42] <DaViruz_> yes
[00:46:47] <DaViruz_> it seems to me my point is being missed. the voltage between phases is not the same as the voltage between one phase and neutral
[00:47:01] <DaViruz_> you can easily rectify both of those
[00:47:14] <Valen> however the voltage between the phases is not greater than from each phase to neutral
[00:47:22] <DaViruz_> yes it is..
[00:47:37] <DaViruz_> sqrt(3) times higher
[00:47:39] <PCW> Yess its the difference in 208 and 120
[00:48:27] <DaViruz_> sqrt(3)*120 is 207.8, shocker
[00:48:54] <DaViruz_> in european grids a single phase is 230V and three phase is usually referred to as 400V
[00:48:57] <PCW> I assumed Skunkwords measured between phases
[00:49:09] <DaViruz_> sqrt(3)*230 = 398
[00:49:15] <skunkworks> between phases
[00:49:24] <Valen> then why do we have 415 v?
[00:49:26] <PCW> so I think were in violent agreement
[00:50:31] <DaViruz_> because you have 240V i would say
[00:51:28] <Valen1> i think my computer needs more phases
[00:51:34] <PCW> "if I measure 140v across any of the three phases" so the 197V should be right Skunkworks
[00:51:38] <Valen1> it just decided to turn off
[00:52:00] <Valen1> and back on again a few seconds later
[00:52:04] <DaViruz_> assuming your rectifier is also connected between phases
[00:52:13] <DaViruz_> but i think it's fairly safe to assume it is
[00:53:49] <Valen1> ahh, i think i see where i was looking wrongly
[00:54:31] <Valen1> referenced to netural, if phase 1 is at 240V phase 2 will be at - some voltage yes?
[00:54:45] <DaViruz_> yes
[00:54:49] <Valen1> -175V?
[00:55:10] <Valen1> ergo phase 1 to phase 2 voltage is 415
[00:55:26] <Valen1> hence bridge rectified output is that
[00:55:52] <Valen1> no power using device is going to use half bridge rectifying anyway ;->
[00:55:57] <DaViruz_> the differential peak does not occure at single phase peak
[00:56:04] <DaViruz_> i'm not sure what the angular difference is
[00:56:25] <Valen1> it'll be in there somewhere
[00:56:31] <DaViruz_> yeah
[00:56:48] <DaViruz_> probably when the slope of the two phases coincide
[00:57:25] <Valen1> and as such we can all agree that high voltage dc with silicion switchmode voltage steppers is the way to distribute power
[00:57:46] <andypugh> Sorry, I was away plotting sinusoids in Excel.
[00:58:16] <DaViruz_> yes, DC power transmission throughout would be nice
[00:58:25] <DaViruz_> AC has kind of served its purpose
[00:58:39] <Valen1> i worked out you could actually roll it out without massive hardship
[00:58:40] <andypugh> I now agree that phase-to-phase is exactly sinusoidal and exactly sqrt(3) * phase-neutral.
[00:59:44] <DaViruz_> can you also work out at which angular difference the maximum phase to phase voltage is?
[01:00:01] <andypugh> -30 degrees
[01:00:14] <DaViruz_> that was my guess
[01:00:24] <Valen1> sure it isn't a fraction or something?
[01:00:26] <andypugh> Or +30, depends where you look
[01:00:45] <Valen1> i was figuring something like 1/3rd or some such
[01:01:03] <andypugh> No, it is exactly and precisely 30 degrees.
[01:01:05] <DaViruz_> it's because the derivatives of the two waves are the same there
[01:01:12] <Valen1> knowing how rapidly AC stuff devolves into 1/3rd pi on 47 theta
[01:02:13] <DaViruz_> i suppose pi/6 radians is fine then? :)
[01:02:23] <Valen1> see what i mean
[01:02:28] <Valen1> do ya see
[01:03:16] <Valen1> friggin fraction maths crap
[01:03:41] <DaViruz_> what about your quarter inches? ;)
[01:04:21] <Valen1> I'm an Australian, the only thing i measure in quater inches is the stiches the freekin dentist left hanging out of my face yesterday
[01:04:25] <andypugh> skunkworks: Need another project? Pretty cheap: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330468229099
[01:04:32] <Valen1> and even then i'm likey to say 6mm
[01:04:35] <DaViruz_> oh.
[01:04:42] <DaViruz_> that explaines the 240V also
[01:04:50] <Valen1> yup
[01:05:01] <Valen1> though i think they have recently changed it to 230v for some reason
[01:05:21] <andypugh> UK is 240V but complies with euro 230V by careful manipulation of the tolerances...
[01:05:34] <Valen1> yeah thats what we have done i think
[01:06:10] <andypugh> So a multimeter says 240V but the spec is 230 +15 -5 or similar.
[01:06:28] <Valen1> yeah I've always gotten around 240v
[01:07:09] <Valen1> well most of the time
[01:07:34] <DaViruz_> i think i will try to run some switchmode power supplies off 300V DC some day
[01:07:34] <Valen1> the time i measured 70V from "earth" to a wire stuck into the ground was interesting
[01:07:38] <andypugh> You have unique plugs too, I believe>
[01:07:40] <DaViruz_> i think most would be just fine
[01:07:56] <DaViruz_> andypugh: you too, i believe ;)
[01:08:02] <Valen1> http://www.advin.com/uv-eraser-plug-Australia-W800.JPG
[01:08:14] <Valen1> your ones look weird to me
[01:08:24] <Valen1> half your stuff doesn't even have an earth
[01:08:34] <Valen1> your being american
[01:08:53] <andypugh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_plug is surprisingly fascinating
[01:08:59] <Valen1> yeah
[01:09:07] <DaViruz_> i wildly assumed andypugh was from UK :/
[01:09:11] <andypugh> I am
[01:09:14] <Valen1> I can see that IEC plugs are going to become more prevalent
[01:09:18] <DaViruz_> oh.
[01:09:22] <Valen1> the UK ones arent too different to ours?
[01:09:31] <DaViruz_> very different
[01:09:52] <DaViruz_> think huge
[01:10:07] <DaViruz_> http://www.amabilidade2002.com/n15.jpg
[01:10:19] <andypugh> we have rather clunky plugs, but they are inarguably technically safer than most others, which is making defining a single euro-plug an insoluble puzzle.
[01:10:21] <Valen1> ahh yeah
[01:10:40] <Valen1> you have duses in each plug and in the wall too dont you?
[01:10:43] <Valen1> fuses
[01:10:55] <DaViruz_> are the uk plugs safer then normal PE schuko plugs?
[01:10:55] <andypugh> No fuses in the wall, just in the plug.
[01:11:27] <Valen1> I don't really see how it makes things safer than having a fuse in the device or in the line to be honest
[01:11:29] <DaViruz_> http://www.inspired-energy.com/Standard_Products/MC205x/Euro%20Schuko%20CE%207%207%20plug.jpg for reference
[01:11:31] <andypugh> Yes. Higher current capacity, fused for cable prorection and shielded outlets
[01:11:54] <Valen1> what current is the average wall plug rated for?
[01:11:59] <DaViruz_> i hope you are not sayint that the wires in the wall are unfused?
[01:12:25] <andypugh> The wall sockets are fused to suit the distribution wiring. The plug-fuse is sized to suit the plug-cable.
[01:12:33] <DaViruz_> i see
[01:12:47] <Valen1> 13A, ours do 10A
[01:13:10] <DaViruz_> schuko do 16A i believe, and the wire must also be capable of carrying that
[01:13:13] <DaViruz_> in reality, few are
[01:13:30] <andypugh> Indeed, the plugs are perfectly good at 13A continuous (Schuko are a bit marginal)
[01:14:11] <andypugh> I forgot the shrouded pins, so you can't pull the plug half way out and touch live terminals.
[01:14:19] <DaViruz_> good quality plugs and sockets are fine at 16A
[01:14:29] <DaViruz_> schuko does that, also.. :)
[01:14:59] <andypugh> They are horribly clunky, but the Euro legislators can't be seen to be eliminating safety...
[01:14:59] <Valen1> read the last paragraph about our power plugs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_plug#Type_I
[01:15:22] <Valen1> andypugh: why not just require the devices to have a fuse, and allow for inline fuses
[01:15:25] <DaViruz_> from what you've told i don't consider uk plugs safer than schuko
[01:16:09] <DaViruz_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:LethalSocket.jpg
[01:16:12] <DaViruz_> nice illustration
[01:16:18] <andypugh> Shrouded pins, integral fuse (so safe with small cable fitted) and a finger-proof shield in the wall outlet.
[01:16:48] <Valen1> our pins have a jacket covering the top of them now
[01:17:14] <Valen1> so as you push it in the insulation must be inside the socket before the pins make contact
[01:17:19] <DaViruz_> are sockets are recessed so the pins are hidden before they make contact
[01:18:02] <Valen1> and alot of power boards also have a wiper setup such that the (longer) earth pin must be making contact before it'll allow the power pins to make contact
[01:18:16] <Valen1> which really sucks when you want to plug a non earthed device in
[01:18:38] <Valen1> http://www.jiajisi.com/UploadFiles/JJA-12%20Australian%20plug.jpg see the black on the pins, it be insulation
[01:18:38] <andypugh> http://www.fatallyflawed.org.uk/
[01:19:25] <andypugh> Is interesting, basically there was a trend to sell plastic covers to put in mains sockets that actually makes the intrinsically safe BS1363 sockets a bit less safe.
[01:20:31] <DaViruz_> that's a bit silly
[01:21:15] <Valen1> andypugh: do you have provision for non earthed devices?
[01:21:41] <DaViruz_> i believe the earth pin is just plastic on such cables?
[01:21:50] <andypugh> Yes, you just don't wire the earth pin (and often is it plastic)
[01:22:06] <Valen1> ahh, must suck for phone chargers and the like
[01:22:14] <DaViruz_> but the device needs to be double insulated and such?
[01:22:17] <Valen1> ours are not much biger than the plug
[01:22:25] <andypugh> On non-earthed devices it just serves to open the shutters.
[01:23:31] <andypugh> This is neat: http://www.broadbandgenie.co.uk/news/100318/folding-uk-mains-plug-wins-design-award-on-sale-soon
[01:25:07] <Valen1> neat
[01:25:22] <Valen1> with the fuse in the handle
[01:25:25] <andypugh> But yes, there is no doubt that the BS1363 plug is big and clunky. The challenge is to come up with something neater which has the same safety features. (I don't care, personally, but legislators can't be seen to be reducing safety "won't somebody think of the children!")
[01:25:56] <Valen1> andypugh: the only thing yours does different to ours is have a fuse in it
[01:26:22] <andypugh> You have automatically shielded sockets?
[01:26:42] <Valen1> by shielded you mean you cant connect to power without an earth pin?
[01:27:23] <Valen1> or some kind of electrical sheilding?
[01:27:33] <andypugh> I mean that you can't poke an object into the live without an earth pin, yes.
[01:27:54] <Valen1> i don't think its part of the standard but lots of powerboards are built that way
[01:28:09] <DaViruz_> on schuko you have to insert pins into both the netrual and live, simoultaneously, and with equal pressure, for the shutters to open
[01:28:49] <andypugh> AH, yes, they have a rotating shield, don't they?
[01:29:00] <DaViruz_> something like that
[01:29:23] <andypugh> Another part of the problem is that German, French and Italian plugs are approximately, but not entirely, interchangeable.
[01:29:49] <Valen1> I think the main problem with the UK plugs is the spacing of the pins is rather large
[01:29:51] <andypugh> But the plug fuse does seem like a good idea.
[01:30:11] <DaViruz_> it does
[01:30:35] <DaViruz_> our cables are restricted to 1.5mm2 to carry 16A
[01:31:25] <andypugh> If you have a 0.75mm2 / 5A flex to a lamp, plugged into a spur fused at 32A that's not ideal. With a UK plug there will be a 5A fuse in the plug until it blows and the owner fits a 13A one in its place :-)
[01:32:23] <Valen1> andypugh: i still dont see why you need the fuse in the plug though
[01:32:27] <DaViruz_> the uke plug does 32A?
[01:32:29] <DaViruz_> -e
[01:32:33] <Valen1> you could put it in the line without a problem
[01:32:49] <Valen1> DaViruz_: he's saying that circuit in the house is 32A
[01:33:27] <andypugh> The plug does not to 32A, but a set of double sockets might do, and would be fused at 32A in the fuse box.
[01:33:27] <DaViruz_> and wired to a socket yes
[01:33:42] <DaViruz_> oh.
[01:34:21] <DaViruz_> then you do need plug fuses, or you would be able to load one socket at 32A
[01:34:44] <andypugh> Indeed.
[01:34:48] <DaViruz_> (unless the sockets have fuses)
[01:34:51] <Valen1> you don't rate your circuits higher than one load?
[01:35:24] <andypugh> It is actually a bit worse than it seems, as we tend to run all the sockets on a floor from one ring main.
[01:35:39] <DaViruz_> http://www.adaptelec.com/images/plugs_outlets/wa12a-socketfit.jpg
[01:35:46] <DaViruz_> the swiss socket is interesting
[01:35:49] <andypugh> So a single 32A breaker runs all my downstairs sockets.
[01:35:50] <Valen1> 32A is larger than what we would run for one circuit here i think, but i think 16-20A is pretty common
[01:35:50] <DaViruz_> wounderfully weird
[01:36:16] <DaViruz_> andypugh: do you have 4mm2 cables in the walls?
[01:36:20] <andypugh> Yes
[01:36:23] <DaViruz_> oh.
[01:36:34] <DaViruz_> seems as bulky as the plugs.. :)
[01:36:56] <andypugh> Actually, No.
[01:37:02] <andypugh> We have a 2.5mm ring
[01:37:13] <andypugh> With both ends into the fuse box.
[01:37:24] <Valen1> DaViruz_: that swiss plug is for 3 devices
[01:37:31] <DaViruz_> Valen1: i know
[01:37:43] <Valen1> compact though
[01:37:52] <DaViruz_> and.. circular
[01:38:04] <DaViruz_> one socket for each phase would be nice
[01:38:14] <Valen1> make doing 3 phase kinda simple ;->
[01:38:29] <DaViruz_> andypugh: oh
[01:38:33] <andypugh> I don't defend that practice. It is far too easy for the ring to break and leave you thinking you have twice the current capacity you really have.
[01:38:45] <DaViruz_> yeah
[01:38:47] <Valen1> though you would need a neutral and it'd be way to easy to miswire ;->
[01:39:03] <DaViruz_> and if the ring breaks noone notices
[01:39:08] <DaViruz_> until the walls are on fire
[01:39:12] <Valen1> andypugh: you actually run a loop as in active > active?
[01:39:19] <andypugh> It was a standard devised after the war when we were rather short of copper.
[01:39:33] <Valen1> that would play merry hell with any electrical equipment
[01:39:47] <DaViruz_> how often do you need 32A anyway?
[01:39:49] <Valen1> loops are funky antennas
[01:40:09] <Jymmm> Valen1: No, they're directional
[01:40:10] <Valen1> DaViruz_: your making breakfast whilst the missus is vaccuming
[01:40:24] <DaViruz_> that accounts for what, 12A?
[01:40:24] <DaViruz_> :)
[01:40:36] <Valen1> kettle boiling, toaster on, and vaccume cleaner running
[01:40:38] <Valen1> 10A each
[01:41:47] <DaViruz_> 32A on one outlet
[01:42:16] <Valen1> the 32a isnt for the outlet, its for all the outlets
[01:42:18] <andypugh> Catching up with some welding while roasting a joint, boiling a kettle and firing a plate in a kiln to eat the food off?
[01:42:37] <DaViruz_> Valen1: yes, but each is wired with 32A capacity
[01:42:49] <Valen1> the plugs are only rated to 16A
[01:43:07] <Jymmm> roasting a joint?
[01:43:10] <moopy> plugs ?
[01:43:13] <andypugh> The biggest fuse the plugs take is actually 13A
[01:43:17] <Valen1> my bad
[01:43:36] <DaViruz_> still, the cable capacity to each outlet is 32A
[01:43:37] <Valen1> Jymmm: he means smoking (with wood chips) a joint (of meat)
[01:43:39] <moopy> just put some bigger fuse wire in
[01:43:45] <DaViruz_> imo that seems wasteful
[01:43:55] <Valen1> DaViruz_: we run 20 here pretty commonly
[01:44:14] <moopy> tin the plug terminals
[01:44:23] <andypugh> The previous owner of my house thought that 1mm2 cable was OK to wire the oven in with. He was very wrong.. http://picasaweb.google.com/bodgesoc/Gibbs#5506480949142923826
[01:44:36] <Valen1> and I gave a pretty simple example of how to hit 30A without trying too hard
[01:44:42] <moopy> 1mm will take 8A
[01:44:47] <Valen1> hell, toaster, jug, and microwave is 30A
[01:44:54] <DaViruz_> andypugh: wow
[01:44:58] <Valen1> thats a common kitchen load in myplace
[01:44:59] <Jymmm> andypugh: i dont see anything wrong with that
[01:45:05] <moopy> 1mm will take 20A but it may get hot
[01:45:29] <Valen1> mains wiring seems so different to what we do in robots
[01:45:32] <DaViruz_> especially in a plastic tube inside a wall
[01:45:34] <Jymmm> andypugh: ...as long as your fire insurance is up to date
[01:45:36] <andypugh> I was especially impressed with the way that the earth is clamped onto the insulation....
[01:45:45] <moopy> i imagine 1mm cable would run at 160deg C at 20A
[01:45:58] <DaViruz_> no insurance here would cover something like that :)
[01:45:59] <Valen1> 16A we run an 6mm diamiter cable
[01:46:19] <Jymmm> andypugh: I like the neutral line running along side of the screw
[01:46:34] <DaViruz_> i like the live wire melting
[01:46:36] <andypugh> yes, that's good too.
[01:47:39] <moopy> 6mm for 16A is wasteful
[01:47:43] <andypugh> I am glad the live wire melted. The other side of that connector is the 4mm2 cooker feed, straight from the 32A dedicated breaker in the fuse box.
[01:48:07] <moopy> 2.5mm single core will run 25A no problems
[01:48:25] <DaViruz_> andypugh: you don't do 3 phase to ovens and stoves?
[01:48:37] <Jymmm> andypugh: I stole your pic to share why warm wires are not a good thing
[01:48:57] <andypugh> No. But we do run at 240V so our currents are a fair bit lower than the US
[01:48:58] <Valen> ok this is getting silly
[01:49:10] <Valen> another "mini blackout"
[01:49:22] <Valen> just enough to reset all my electrical crap
[01:49:50] <andypugh> (But not low enough that 1mm2 is enough that's for sure)
[01:50:24] <DaViruz_> andypugh: is 3 phase usually available at residental places? i thought it was
[01:50:33] <andypugh> No, hardly ever
[01:50:34] <moopy> 1mm isnormally used for lighting only
[01:50:36] <DaViruz_> oh
[01:50:45] <DaViruz_> that explaines the 32A deal then
[01:50:57] <andypugh> I really wish it was, it would make life far easier.
[01:51:11] <moopy> 2.5mm is used for ring mains upto 30A
[01:51:26] <DaViruz_> you'd be hard pressed to find a house, or even an apartment, without 3ph here
[01:52:12] <moopy> normally the electricity board run different phases either side of the street
[01:52:37] <DaViruz_> i guess that kind of forgives the not being up to speed on three phase math also :-)
[01:52:39] <andypugh> DaViruz_: 3-phase or 2-phase?
[01:52:42] <DaViruz_> 3
[01:52:50] <DaViruz_> 120 degrees apart
[01:52:54] <DaViruz_> 230V per phase
[01:53:10] <andypugh> I thought the US was 120V and had a 240V 180 degree feed for cookers?
[01:53:19] <moopy> 230v to earth but 415 between phases
[01:53:24] <DaViruz_> i'm from sweden
[01:53:43] <moopy> and that rms
[01:53:45] <andypugh> Ah, then you should really be asleep by now :-)
[01:53:51] <andypugh> As shoild I
[01:53:53] <DaViruz_> i was pretty sure my english was giving me away
[01:53:56] <moopy> so peak to peak is 600v
[01:54:03] <DaViruz_> epecially since i was up at 5 this morning
[01:54:07] <DaViruz_> :/
[01:54:41] <andypugh> According to my references in the UK we rate 2.4mm2 at 24A
[01:55:25] <andypugh> But the proper calcs consider bundling, whether surface, buried or conduit and the "diversity" of the load.
[01:55:52] <DaViruz_> we require 6mm2 for 25A
[01:55:55] <moopy> thats the beauty of references, they are usually more accurate than some guestimate i pluck from my distant memory
[01:56:00] <andypugh> Oh, and the run length of course.
[01:56:18] <andypugh> If you really care, a 17th-edition online calculator: http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/Charts/VoltageDrop.html
[01:56:40] <moopy> its all down to how hot the insulation can get before it melts
[01:56:52] <andypugh> MIC FTW!
[01:57:07] <andypugh> (I like "Pyro")
[01:59:27] <andypugh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral-insulated_copper-clad_cable
[02:02:40] <andypugh> Right, enough of this. Goodnight chaps.
[02:07:27] <Valen> geez, got a wisdom tooth pulled
[02:07:40] <Valen> i have so many pills to take now i need a list
[02:46:28] <skunkworks> the line driver solved the lost position issue
[02:46:36] <skunkworks> 200ipm
[02:49:53] <skunkworks> (it would start loosing it at about 40ipm)
[02:50:38] <skunkworks> now I have to buckle down and tune the damn thing
[02:51:12] <Valen> heh thats always fun
[02:57:12] <cradek> yay!
[02:58:03] <skunkworks> sound cool runnning at 200ipm
[02:58:26] <skunkworks> I think it is mostly belt noise.
[02:58:56] <cradek> still just X?
[02:59:06] <skunkworks> yes
[02:59:16] <skunkworks> we are slow
[02:59:18] <Valen> youtube?
[02:59:29] <cradek> cool, you'll have it homing and rapiding soon then
[03:00:00] <skunkworks> soon
[07:17:52] <mendel|drunk> mendel|drunk is now known as mendelbuild
[09:00:47] <mendelbuild> :D
[10:32:20] <Fox_Muldr> Fox_Muldr is now known as Fox_M|afk
[11:42:35] <jthornton> * jthornton reads the Bridgeport CNC DX32 programmers manual
[11:51:22] <jthornton> if making a small step less than cutter radius, gouging occours
[11:51:58] <jthornton> if the cutter diameter is larger than the width of the feature to be cut, gouging occours
[11:52:12] <jthornton> at least they warn you it is stupid
[12:12:16] <alex_joni> one small step for a cutter radius
[12:12:29] <alex_joni> one large gouging error ..
[12:13:47] <jthornton> you ought to see the path the manual shows if your tool is too big to go down a slot with cutter comp on
[12:32:18] <piasdom> i got this to run http://www.panix.com/~dgarrett/ngcgui/README from the forum. not emc errors. http://pastebin.com/5endjsd1
[12:40:04] <piasdom> dmesg; http://pastebin.com/1JWRHVDF
[12:51:40] <piasdom> well, thanks anyway. i'll try a restart. have a great day !
[14:32:39] <piasdom> hi, that fixed, but now i got this http://pastebin.com/jgrkLbnK
[14:33:33] <piasdom> it doesn't retract to .1 but to the last move before sub .2. even the -.6 goes to .2
[14:34:04] <piasdom> i put .2 "in" the sub and same thing
[14:34:33] <piasdom> is this for calling suppose to work?
[14:43:04] <skunkworks> cradek - doing a 1ipm move and adjusting the input gain of the amp to null the following error is pretty neat. Instantly no overshoot.
[15:42:18] <alex_joni> awallin: The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable to complete your request.
[15:42:54] <alex_joni> from http://www.anderswallin.net/2010/09/equatorial-wedge-%E2%80%93-side-plates/
[16:01:06] <skunkworks> heh - homing to an index. funny - the homing dance
[16:01:21] <L84Supper> anyone interested in a Warner & Swasey #5 Turret lathe?
[16:01:49] <archivist> only if you deliver for free
[16:02:18] <mendelbuild> mendelbuild is now known as Mendel|printing
[16:02:24] <L84Supper> came across this and a Hitach Seki turret lathe in the same shop
[16:03:03] <L84Supper> archivist: moving them costs more then they are asking
[16:03:17] <archivist> I realise :)
[16:03:35] <archivist> Im safe in knowing Im too far away
[16:05:07] <L84Supper> came across a Boxford lathe near there as well
[16:06:52] <skunkworks> * skunkworks only ran it into the overtravel limits twice.... ;)
[16:12:55] <piasdom> ok,how can i fix this ? (i don't mean my machine)
[16:25:48] <Fox_M|afk> Fox_M|afk is now known as Fox_Muldr
[16:42:37] <piasdom> well, maybe this will help ya'll or someone else ........
[16:43:33] <piasdom> i noticed that if i put g81 x1y1 z-.02 r .06 and use g0 z.2 before g81 ....
[16:43:46] <piasdom> it goes to the higher g0z.2
[16:44:23] <piasdom> but if i make r.25(higher the z) it goes to r.25.
[16:46:29] <piasdom> i hope ya'll all have a great Labor Day( and the ones who don't celebrate it, a great day also)
[16:46:33] <renesis> eh its gonna g0 to wherever you tell it
[17:11:00] <zlotvor> Hi! I have one noob question: Is it possible to use EMC2 for step/dir control over Modbus TCP/IP?
[17:15:24] <zlotvor> I can make my own Modbus controller but not sure is EMC2 capable to do that
[17:16:30] <SWPadnos> I don't think that would work well
[17:16:52] <zlotvor> Because of timings?
[17:16:54] <SWPadnos> there is modbus support for a few devices, but it's not realtime communication, so it can't be used for motion control
[17:16:58] <SWPadnos> ye, more or less
[17:17:01] <SWPadnos> yes
[17:17:28] <zlotvor> to bad :(
[17:18:04] <SWPadnos> emc is a motion controller, it doesn't (need to) play well with other things that want to control motion
[17:21:58] <zlotvor> I don't think about "smart" controller, only step/dir - but via Modbus TCP/IP
[17:22:46] <zlotvor> Idea is to make a controller that takes command from master (emc) and execute it
[17:23:08] <zlotvor> without "smart" functions and PID etc.
[17:23:14] <SWPadnos> that is smart
[17:23:26] <SWPadnos> "go this far at this speed"
[17:24:15] <SWPadnos> you either need the controller to do all the positioning, including acceleration and velocity limiting, or you need feedback to emc so emc can control the position
[17:24:45] <SWPadnos> and there can't be a lot of latency in that round-trip communication loop
[17:25:23] <zlotvor> if I recall correctly lpt is around 150 KBps
[17:25:23] <SWPadnos> emc theoretically could work with a modbus device if it is just a frequency generator
[17:25:44] <SWPadnos> they can go faster for data, but that's fairly irrelevant for emc
[17:25:50] <zlotvor> and my controller would go 10MBps
[17:26:04] <SWPadnos> the parallel port has zero latency (with software step generation)
[17:26:29] <SWPadnos> since the motion controller only has to read a memory location to see how many steps have been output by the step generator code
[17:27:18] <SWPadnos> there are parallel-port connected devices (from Mesa electronics, Pico Systetms, and the Pluto board) that are frequency generators - they essentially look like a velocity servo to emc
[17:27:47] <SWPadnos> in a single 1ms cycle, emc can read the current positions, calculate new velocity commands, and output the new commands
[17:28:07] <SWPadnos> it takes maybe 150 us on the slowest "smart" parport device
[17:28:48] <SWPadnos> if you were to write an RTNet (or other) realtime ethernet driver for emc, and you could guarantee similar timing for command and feedback timing, then it could work
[17:29:32] <zlotvor> maybe not 1ms but far below 150
[17:29:49] <SWPadnos> that was microseconds, not milliseconds
[17:29:49] <zlotvor> actually around 5ms maybe faster
[17:30:06] <SWPadnos> the servo control cycle is typically 1ms or faster
[17:30:38] <zlotvor> sorry my logic is 1ms=1000us
[17:30:47] <zlotvor> was confused ;-)
[17:31:38] <IchGuckLive> How many Volts zlotvor
[17:31:51] <zlotvor> ?
[17:32:03] <IchGuckLive> on the engines
[17:32:16] <IchGuckLive> Motors
[17:32:36] <zlotvor> its irrelevant
[17:32:56] <zlotvor> but now I'm using 24V for driving steppers
[17:33:14] <IchGuckLive> ok B)
[17:37:49] <zlotvor> SWPadnos: the parallel port has zero latency, but motors not - you cannot send a burst of 1us steps to the "dumb" controller because it will lost his steps.
[17:38:04] <zlotvor> is this correct?
[17:38:07] <SWPadnos> we don't do that
[17:38:32] <SWPadnos> there are two major methods of generating steps in emc:
[17:38:58] <SWPadnos> 1) software generates the step/dir outputs on some sort of generic digital I/O pin. This is usually the parallel port, but doesn't have to be
[17:39:50] <SWPadnos> the maximum step rate is dependent on the CPU/motherboard interrupt latency, and this method is usually limited to some tens of kHz, maybe 30-50 kHz max on average
[17:40:13] <IchGuckLive> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html//config_stepconf.html#sub:Basic-Information
[17:40:18] <SWPadnos> the steps are output as a waveform, not as parallel port data, so there is no "bursting"
[17:40:52] <SWPadnos> 2) a hardware device generates steps instead of the CPU outputting to a GPIO pin
[17:40:53] <zlotvor> IchGuckLive: will read it, thanks
[17:41:07] <SWPadnos> that page is irrelevant to this discussion
[17:41:31] <IchGuckLive> but good for understanding how it works
[17:41:31] <SWPadnos> this one is relevant: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?EMC2_Supported_Hardware
[17:41:43] <SWPadnos> no, that's about configuring a parport machine with stepconf
[17:42:08] <IchGuckLive> does he use a mesa card ?
[17:42:09] <SWPadnos> so, in case 2, we have a hardware step generator, connected via PCI, PCIe, ISA, or parallel port
[17:42:27] <SWPadnos> no, we're talking about hardware designs that can or can't be used with emc
[17:42:36] <zlotvor> I think method #1 is viable if supports writing modbus registers
[17:42:37] <IchGuckLive> ok
[17:43:47] <SWPadnos> with a hardware frequency generator, the CPU can have much worse latency, since there is no need for a fast RT thread to generate steps (as in the software case)
[17:44:33] <SWPadnos> additionally, the step frequencies are usually much smoother since the timebase for step generation will be some MHz instead of maybe 50 kHz
[17:44:59] <SWPadnos> in both cases, the motion controller has nearly instantaneous access to the current position of the motor
[17:45:22] <SWPadnos> in the software case, there's a variable that says how many steps have been outptu
[17:45:23] <SWPadnos> output
[17:45:50] <SWPadnos> in the hardware case, it may be a PCI register read, or a few bytes of data from the parallel port, which takes a few microseconds at most
[17:46:35] <SWPadnos> so, if you had a modbus device that was a rate generator, and you also had a realtime ethernet driver, you might be able to make motors move how you want
[17:47:54] <zlotvor> in that case the solution would be Profibus or similar
[17:47:57] <SWPadnos> on 100mbit ethernet, the minimum packet duration is about 5 microseconds (512 bit times), and that minimum packet can carry a 26 or 46 byte payload I believe
[17:48:02] <zlotvor> instead of modbus
[17:48:28] <SWPadnos> you still need a realtime driver, and the total communication time (status read, command write) needs to be under 100-200 us
[17:48:37] <SWPadnos> for most machines anyway
[17:49:04] <SWPadnos> this may shed more light on the subject as well: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Emc2HardwareDesign
[17:49:41] <zlotvor> ok, I see I have to read tonight
[17:49:47] <SWPadnos> yep :)
[17:49:53] <zlotvor> thanks for explanation
[17:50:04] <SWPadnos> sure
[17:50:18] <SWPadnos> it's a relatively common question, in its various forms
[17:51:24] <zlotvor> didn't find any references on linuxcnc forum and google won't help to
[17:51:48] <djwez> hi guys im trying to set up emc2 with stepgen and atm ive got it set to mode 6 (on all axis) but for some reason its still outputting direction and step. does someone mind explaining the files i have to edit? :\
[17:51:59] <zlotvor> basically that's the reason I ask here
[17:52:11] <SWPadnos> the forum is pretty useless for technical discussions like this, the main developers rarely look at it
[17:53:06] <Jymmm> zlotvor: for future reference: http://www.google.com/search?q=modbus+site%3Alinuxcnc.org just chnage modbus to what you want to serch for
[17:53:33] <SWPadnos> or go to wiki.linuxcnc.org and use the search box :)
[17:54:20] <zlotvor> nothing related in those post, I read them all
[17:54:26] <SWPadnos> djwez, that should be in the hal file, where stepgen is loaded
[17:54:47] <SWPadnos> sometihng like loadrt stepgen step_type=6,6,6
[17:55:46] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: When it comes to sound dampening/supression machinery, is the eggshell a requirement?
[17:55:55] <Jymmm> enclosure
[17:56:18] <SWPadnos> you could have an active cancellation system, but foam is a lot less expensive
[17:56:48] <SWPadnos> it doesn't need to be eggshell shaped either, that's just more readily available than the anechoic pyramid-shaped stuff
[17:57:18] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: What I'm thinking so far is: MDF + Sound board + recycled rubber door mat that has cross hatches in it
[17:57:31] <djwez> ive edited the core_stepper.hal file and the pinout.hal (since you still need to link the pins to the phases ) but still no luck
[17:57:46] <SWPadnos> I'd expect that to work pretty well, it'll depend on the frequencies you're trying to block
[17:58:11] <SWPadnos> djwez, can you put your hal and ini files on http://pastebin.ca/
[17:58:11] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: small dust collector
[17:58:21] <SWPadnos> it still depends
[17:58:32] <SWPadnos> materials absorb/block certain frequencies
[17:58:45] <SWPadnos> if those are the frequencies you're trying to block, then it will work
[17:58:47] <SWPadnos> if not, then it won't work
[17:59:20] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: That I understand. I just don't know the freqs
[17:59:33] <SWPadnos> the best thing to do is to try it
[17:59:54] <SWPadnos> and/or get a good microphone, record the noisemaker, and see what kind of analysis you can do on a PC
[18:00:06] <SWPadnos> all you need is an FFT to get the spectrum
[18:00:47] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: I would, but the thing is that I to build it before I can so kinda defeats that purpose
[18:01:22] <SWPadnos> then you just have to try something and see how it gors
[18:01:24] <SWPadnos> goes
[18:01:28] <Jymmm> http://www.housing.com/categories/homosote.html
[18:02:40] <djwez> ok yeah ill try now now...... ive set it up for just the x axis for now just to see if its working before i code the rest
[18:03:17] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: I'm guessing at what each of those materials are able to absorb is the biggest thing. I figure the MDF will deal with mids and highs, the soundboard with mids lows, and the rubber pad with highs and mids
[18:04:47] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: you think bubble wrap would do any good?
[18:04:54] <Jymmm> for the highs
[18:06:04] <SWPadnos> not really
[18:06:08] <SWPadnos> but I don't know
[18:06:15] <SWPadnos> you could experiment with a hand drill or dremel
[18:07:31] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: I stuck the DC in a 20gal trashcan, is reduced the overall level, but since it really didn't fit in the can, and vibrates, the can walls acting as an antenna for some freqs
[18:07:34] <IchGuckLive> Jimm silika ?
[18:07:55] <djwez> http://filebin.ca/sxvrtt/core_stepper.hal and http://filebin.ca/nakzcs/standard_pinout.hal
[18:08:13] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: trashcan sander =)
[18:08:24] <Jymmm> for those REALLY BIG JOBS =)
[18:09:06] <SWPadnos> ack. djwez, can you put those on pastebin - I don't want to download and look at it in an editor, just in the browser :)
[18:09:12] <SWPadnos> shop-vac
[18:09:23] <djwez> ok ill convert them to txt quick
[18:09:53] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: what about a shopvac?
[18:10:26] <SWPadnos> loud and annoying, especially when you take the motor assembly out of the waste container
[18:10:32] <Jymmm> ah
[18:11:03] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: Teh Dc vibration was solid, I seriously doubt they balanced the blades before welding it together
[18:22:17] <djwez> pc just went on hibernate (running two pcs)
[18:23:20] <djwez> ok the core.stepper file - http://pastebin.ca/1932970
[18:26:34] <djwez> and the pinout - http://pastebin.ca/1932973
[18:26:44] <jthornton_> jthornton_ is now known as jthornton
[18:29:05] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: Interesting... just wear out the the sound waves http://science.discovery.com/videos/deconstructed-how-mufflers-work.html
[18:32:04] <jthornton_> jthornton_ is now known as jthornton
[18:35:43] <Jymmm> jthornton is now known as TheBouncingBunnyWabbit
[18:36:21] <djwez> hahahaha i like!
[18:38:41] <djwez> think i know where ive gone wrong. still need to make changes to one more file :?
[18:51:00] <ichudov> Replaement for the Heidenhain control -- a four drawer cabinet in its place -- see http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Bridgeport-Series-II-Interact-2-CNC-Mill/28-September/28-September-7774.jpg.html
[19:02:20] <mozmck> SWPadnos: have you used any of the arm-cortex chips?
[19:08:51] <djwez> hmmm still not getting anywhere
[19:09:26] <L84Supper> mozmck: I asked a firmware engineer at Marvell to see about getting EMC2 on their ARM soc's with PCIe so we could use the Mesa card
[19:10:36] <mozmck> L84Supper: sounds neat. Wouldn't that mainly entail a port of RTAI such as is being done for the beagleboard?
[19:11:23] <L84Supper> mozmck: pretty much but TI OMAP doesn't have PCIe, but the OS takes care of that
[19:11:58] <mozmck> ah. yeah, the PCIe would be interesting.
[19:12:05] <L84Supper> mozmck: do you know what the plan was with the TI OMAP's to connect to Mesa or other boards?
[19:12:42] <mozmck> Jon Elson was working on a parallel port driver to run his pico boards with it.
[19:13:01] <mozmck> I think he got it about done and is waiting on the RTAI port.
[19:13:48] <L84Supper> I thought I heard that they had RTAI working
[19:15:54] <L84Supper> wow that was last year
[19:17:49] <L84Supper> http://sourceforge.net/projects/rtai-cortex/
[19:18:38] <mozmck> heh, I don't know what's happening on it now.
[19:20:17] <L84Supper> looks like they had patches in April and June
[19:29:37] <L84Supper> somebody used the beagleboard to run their "carving" machine http://code.google.com/p/openomap/
[19:31:41] <NTU> mozmck: Hello! I am working on RTAI + EMC on arch linux and was wondering how to get passed the "Could not write to /dev/rtai_shm" if I don't run EMC as root. also when I do run EMC as root, I get seg faults in /usr/bin/emc :/
[19:32:24] <NTU> and EMC crashes roughly 5.. maybe 6 seconds after starting anything in the EMC menu as root.
[19:33:39] <L84Supper> mozmck: success with RTAI on Beagleboard http://www.mail-archive.com/emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net/msg19299.html
[19:34:05] <NTU> all of my work can be found here: http://aur.archlinux.org/packages/rtai-kernel/rtai-kernel/ http://aur.archlinux.org/packages/rtai-userspace/rtai-userspace/ http://aur.archlinux.org/packages/emc2/emc2/PKGBUILD
[19:36:41] <djwez> damn how hard could it really be to just got direct
[19:39:18] <mozmck> NTU: I guess you are building your own kernel?
[19:39:24] <NTU> yes
[19:39:54] <NTU> but vanilla sources. no ubuntu kernel source is involved.
[19:40:09] <mozmck> I think you need to look at the memlock limits in /etc/security/limits.conf
[19:40:17] <L84Supper> mozmck: we were updating the Arch Linux kernel and EMC2 package
[19:42:51] <NTU> /etc/security/* is shipped with the package in arch called PAM iirc and this is the default output http://pastebin.com/dLeUwGfr
[19:42:59] <L84Supper> mozmck: we want to build and maintain EMC2 packages for ArchLinux
[19:43:13] <L84Supper> was easy last year :)
[19:44:13] <NTU> it was easy since I wasn't building easy to use PKGBUILDs... It's only easy when you aren't the one making it easy :)
[19:45:32] <mozmck> Let me look again. There is a command you can issue to change the limits without rebooting, but I forget what it is.
[19:49:24] <q8istud> hello everyone ..
[19:49:40] <mozmck> NTU: in limits.conf you should have the following lines:
[19:49:41] <mozmck> * soft memlock 20480 #EMC2
[19:49:41] <mozmck> * hard memlock 20480 #EMC2
[19:50:21] <djwez> anyone here that knows how to config stepgen to mode 5/6?
[19:50:45] <NTU> I never had to edit limits.conf before but I'll give that a shot. :)
[19:50:58] <NTU> thanks!
[19:52:41] <q8istud> i have an error when start emc2 "EMC2 terminated with an error. When reporting problems, ....." the message is too long .. can anyone help me ??
[19:54:13] <djwez> wonder what happend to SWPadnos
[19:54:39] <SWPadnos> I'm working (a lot) - sorry to disappear
[19:55:20] <q8istud> i have an error when start emc2 "EMC2 terminated with an error. When reporting problems, ....." the message is too long .. can anyone help me ??
[19:55:59] <L84Supper> q8istud: try pastebin with your error
[19:57:05] <djwez> its ok. ill carry on trying to figure out what ive done wrong. i think im getting somewhere (i have leds weird up to all the outputs to see if its working corectly) and now the lights for the x axis dont come on which means im getting somewhere (there use to be one that stayed on for + and off for - values and one that flashed [the step and dir])
[20:00:04] <q8istud> sorry, but i can wright it in my website because its too long .. ok ??
[20:01:09] <mozmck> q8istud: you should be able to copy the whole error from the window, and paste it into pastebin.com
[20:01:37] <djwez> pastebin.ca you mean?
[20:01:47] <L84Supper> sure
[20:02:26] <L84Supper> there are several pastebin sites
[20:03:02] <djwez> there are? ok! :) i didnt even know about that why im shocked
[20:05:07] <mozmck> L84Supper: which Marvell processor are you thinking of for emc2?
[20:07:21] <q8istud> is like that http://q8aaa.com/a/
[20:09:27] <L84Supper> mozmck: all the ones with PCIe , Kirkwood, Discovery and a few Armadas
[20:10:24] <mozmck> I wonder where you can buy them, or dev boards with one?
[20:11:36] <L84Supper> mozmck: tablets and netbooks plus a few thin clients in Asia.... maybe some imports later this year
[20:11:45] <L84Supper> that's what I'm working on
[20:12:11] <L84Supper> OLPC is also using the 610 or 615 for the next XO
[20:15:04] <q8istud> this is the error messege http://pastebin.com/TmNYDBrQ
[20:15:12] <q8istud> this is the error messege http://pastebin.com/TmNYDBrQ
[20:16:15] <NTU> is this on ubuntu emc live cd?
[20:16:20] <NTU> @ q8istud
[20:16:43] <mozmck> q8istud: looks like you are missing the parport driver. I don't know why that would be.
[20:16:58] <mozmck> NTU: did the memlock stuff help?
[20:17:01] <NTU> it looks more like RTAI userspace and emc module installation directory is set wrong
[20:17:14] <q8istud> no on installed os
[20:17:20] <NTU> im still working on the new kernel. i have my custom DRM kernel running ATM
[20:17:48] <NTU> i was trying to fix some GPU hard locks on my evergreen GPU so i need to re-compile all of RTAI all over again. i started fresh and flushed it all out.
[20:17:59] <Mendel|printing> Mendel|printing is now known as mendel|failure
[20:18:55] <NTU> hal_parport should be in /usr/realtime/modules/emc2/ IIRC
[20:19:19] <NTU> kernel modules shouldn't be in /usr/lib..
[20:19:47] <q8istud> its not show to me in live cd. its show me after i install it under ubuntu 10.04
[20:25:50] <mozmck> did you install from the CD?
[20:26:10] <mozmck> or use the script to install over a normal 10.04 install?
[20:28:31] <q8istud> can i do anything to fix that problem in my PC ??
[20:28:49] <q8istud> yes from cd
[20:29:53] <q8istud> no sorry .. i was installed it by follow that steps in wiki
[20:30:36] <NTU> ...
[20:33:49] <q8istud> this is the wiki http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?action=browse&diff=3&id=Ubuntu10.04PackageNotes
[20:34:25] <L84Supper> mozmck: http://www.open-rd.org/ $149 so bit pricey ... sort of a dev kit
[20:35:09] <L84Supper> there are 7" LCD tablets that are about the same price
[20:35:55] <mozmck> L84Supper: thanks.
[20:36:48] <mozmck> q8istud: did you install using the emc2-install.sh script, or did you install the emc2-sim package? The sim package will not run the realtime stuff.
[20:37:13] <L84Supper> openrd-base has 1x PCIe
[20:38:03] <L84Supper> 2.5 Bbps, fast enough for EMC2
[20:38:20] <L84Supper> heh 2.5 Gbps
[20:38:39] <mozmck> yeah, that looks interesting. is marvell the best choice for a cpu I wonder?
[20:38:46] <q8istud> i'm tryed to install the two package
[20:39:12] <q8istud> :)
[20:39:17] <L84Supper> well, they are coming out with lots of new parts with 2-4 cores and up to 2Ghz
[20:39:21] <alex_joni> q8istud: you can only install emc2 or emc2-sim
[20:39:32] <alex_joni> not both at once
[20:39:51] <mozmck> emc2-install.sh is probably the best way. bbl
[20:40:23] <L84Supper> mozmck: we're actually getting lots of Linux support from them now
[20:40:28] <q8istud> Ok, But what can I do now ??
[20:41:15] <NTU> run the script
[20:41:39] <JT-Hardinge> * JT-Hardinge thinks he better get the camera out for the festival of events to get the Discovery 308 off the trailer :)
[20:42:02] <q8istud> only that ??
[20:42:02] <NTU> it can be run by doing ./emc2-install.sh or sh emc2-install.sh
[20:42:31] <L84Supper> mozmck: the 300/310 is 1GHz at under 1W http://www.marvell.com/products/processors/embedded/armada_300/armada_310.pdf
[20:42:46] <L84Supper> with 2 1x PCIe
[20:43:39] <q8istud> ok, but should not uninstall ??
[20:44:15] <NTU> sudo apt-get purge emc2 and then do sudo apt-get purge emc2-sim
[20:44:22] <NTU> just to make sure they both dont exist
[20:45:15] <NTU> or sudo apt-get remove --purge
[20:45:21] <L84Supper> mozmck: Snapdragon is smartphone oriented, Freescale, TI and Samsung ARM soc's don't offer PCIe and don't offer the higher speeds
[20:45:51] <q8istud> thanks NTU. I wil try it.
[21:15:18] <awallin> http://www.anderswallin.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/IMG_2665.jpg
[21:15:30] <awallin> got pieces from last weekend and this weekend assembled
[21:16:24] <alex_joni> awallin: seen my message?
[21:16:32] <alex_joni> there's a problem with your last 2 posts
[21:16:42] <alex_joni> I think the funky '-' you used
[21:16:46] <alex_joni> http://www.anderswallin.net/2010/09/equatorial-wedge-%E2%80%93-side-plates/
[21:16:52] <awallin> yes I noted that
[21:17:13] <alex_joni> and I get an 500 error when trying to open any of those posts
[21:17:35] <awallin> that matt mullenweg again....
[21:17:51] <awallin> or who should I blame?
[21:19:57] <awallin> there seems to be two kinds of dashes a long one and a short one maybe dash: - and minus:-
[21:20:19] <alex_joni> I bet unicode has more than 2
[21:21:43] <awallin> it should work now, I replaced the mix of dashes with only one type of dash
[21:22:22] <Jymmm> ASCII RULES!!!
[21:22:50] <alex_joni> awallin: so much better :)
[21:23:35] <awallin> Jymmm: if you go all caps you only need 7-bits... think of all the bandwidth saved
[21:24:03] <Jymmm> awallin: Use aolbonics and even less
[21:24:25] <Jymmm> $500 for 5 gallons... http://www.onecoatfireproofpaint.com/video.htm
[21:25:01] <awallin> Jymmm: LOL ROFL, SRSLY!?
[21:25:16] <Jymmm> awallin: Yes
[21:32:03] <Jymmm> 2000F @ 2 hours is impressive. Most safes aren't that high.
[21:36:36] <L84Supper> they should make pajamas from that paint
[21:40:21] <L84Supper> Dry film thickness (DFT) will be approximately 5.38 mils.
[21:45:24] <L84Supper> check the MSDS .... wonder if it's based on Sodium Silicates or?
[21:47:47] <L84Supper> Expantrol - http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5175197/description.html maybe a variation
[21:53:43] <djwez> falling asleep here :|
[21:54:18] <L84Supper> http://secure.sciencecompany.com/Sodium-Silicate-Solution-5-Gal-P16465.aspx $100/5gal + dispersant + latex + water and high sheer mixer for DIY
[22:03:01] <L84Supper> djwez: gmt + 2?
[22:04:34] <Jymmm> L84Supper: Do you REALLY want to muck with DIY stuff for fireproofing?
[22:05:57] <L84Supper> Jymmm: not for fun
[22:06:09] <Jymmm> what?
[22:09:11] <Fox_Muldr> Fox_Muldr is now known as Fox_M|afk
[22:10:45] <Jymmm> L84Supper: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_silicate
[22:11:05] <L84Supper> The case law on that product must be interesting. What's the point of the coating if it's not installed properly?
[22:12:11] <L84Supper> next time I need Stop-Leak for a car I'm buying the jumbo quart
[22:13:11] <L84Supper> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_rocks
[22:14:22] <L84Supper> wow lead nitrate and copper sulfate in an educational toy
[22:40:43] <jthornton_> jthornton_ is now known as jthornton
[22:48:01] <Jymmm> L84Supper: Well, there goes your DIY theory... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_silicate#Passive_fire_protection_.28PFP.29
[23:39:26] <jthornton> this is how I got it home :O http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/johnplctech/BP380%20VMC/BP380-02.jpg
[23:51:01] <jthornton> http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/johnplctech/BP380%20VMC/BP380-01.jpg
[23:53:18] <cradek> cool - do you have it inside yet?
[23:53:37] <cradek> (that poor truck - I hope you didn't drive with it that far forward)
[23:55:16] <jthornton> no, it is ready to slide to the middle of the trailer and I had to drive about 15 miles like that
[23:56:14] <jthornton> then I can turn the trailer around and off load it to the ground then push it into the shop it will take all weekend I'm sure
[23:56:34] <cradek> do you have a forklift to get it down to the ground?
[23:58:06] <jthornton> no, I just drag them down to the ground and off the trailer inch by inch LOL
[23:58:13] <cradek> yikes!
[23:58:48] <jthornton> this one is a pain as I can't point the trailer into the garage because the door is too short in bay 1
[23:59:06] <jthornton> so it has to be on the ground and level when I push it in with the backhoe
[23:59:13] <cradek> ah
[23:59:40] <jthornton> just takes more time that's all
[23:59:53] <jthornton> inch by inch slowly he turned LOL