#emc | Logs for 2010-08-25

[00:04:20] <theorb> theorb is now known as theorbtwo
[00:08:00] <KimK> This is a little off-topic, but there are a lot of clever people here, so here goes: I want to take a screenshot of Google's main page where I have pasted in (for example) blah blahblah and the little drop-down box says, Did you mean "blah blah blah"? But every time I try to take a screenshot using the usual tools, it kills Google's drop-down box, which was to be the point of the photo. Any suggestions?
[00:08:36] <KimK> Ubuntu 8.04, would 10.04 do better? I'll try it...
[00:12:34] <KimK> No, 10.04 doesn't work any better.
[00:31:02] <DaViruz_> install "scrot"
[00:31:30] <DaViruz_> then type "sleep 10; scrot /tmp/screenshot.png" in a terminal window
[00:31:53] <DaViruz_> then you will have 10 seconds to produce the screen you want, and it will be saved as /tmp/screenshot.png
[00:38:56] <KimK> Ha, thanks, you beat me to it. I was just going to report that I got it to work by installing "shutter" from Synaptic, but your idea of a time delay is the same, so thank you!
[00:41:55] <KimK> And I will probably install scrot also, thanks again.
[00:42:10] <DaViruz_> any time
[04:33:09] <elmo40> scrot rulz!
[04:33:20] <elmo40> and you can put the delay right into the command
[04:33:30] <elmo40> scrot -d 10 name_of_pic.png
[06:59:53] <IchGuckLive> Good morning from germany
[07:00:41] <alex_joni> moin moin
[07:01:15] <IchGuckLive> all mashines are up and running
[07:03:26] <IchGuckLive> trying to overcome some problems with fagor control and toolchange position
[07:04:06] <IchGuckLive> tailstock colliding
[07:19:06] <awallin> morning. trying to drink some coffee...
[07:22:04] <IchGuckLive> awallin: get it Hot
[07:22:18] <IchGuckLive> And Dark B)
[08:20:51] <pingufan> Hi, I finished my optocoupler-breakout-board. I use 13 pcs of PC123-A , 9 of them from PC -> MILL (pins 1..9 of D-SUB25), and 4 of them for MILL -> PC (pins 10..13).
[08:21:36] <awallin> pingufan: nice, you should post the schematic and pcb on the wiki or somewhere. you are using this on the parallel port?
[08:22:19] <pingufan> My idea is to use pin 1 (strobe) for switching the spindle on/off (high = on), and to use pins 2..7 (D0..D5) for the three stellers.
[08:22:42] <pingufan> steppers, I meant.
[08:23:02] <pingufan> I this ok for EMC2?
[08:24:55] <pingufan> awallin: I will post that. As this is a simple 1-sided PCB layout with cheap parts, this is surely of interest to more users.
[08:25:30] <pingufan> Should make no problems with self-making.
[08:27:29] <pingufan> Is my layout basically OK or does my pin assignment cause troubles? I currently used a frequency generator to generate up to 35kHz of step pulses, this worked very fine.
[08:37:43] <alex_joni> pingufan: no problems with any pin assignments in emc21
[08:37:47] <alex_joni> emc2*
[08:53:20] <pingufan> Perfect. So I will insert the whole electronics now into my mill. What are usual turns/inch for axis-spindles? Is 8 revotions/inch usual?
[08:56:37] <archivist> measure/count there is no usual
[09:08:03] <pingufan> I see. Thank you. I am also reading the "Getting Started Guide v2.4". The guide mentions nothing (and I think this is more than important) about a connected mill during the latency test. I guess that it must not be connected or switched on?
[10:03:09] <mk0> i get realtime delay error in axis but not in other gui. is it smth with my PC? i ran latency test several times. in gnome and in xfce the result is the same.
[10:03:50] <Valen> latency test is there to test latency, it wont tell you that there is an "error" with it
[10:04:10] <Valen> pingufan: there is no need for any hardware to be in place to run a latency test
[10:06:07] <mk0> manual says to run latency test and start emc again
[10:07:07] <mk0> http://best.of.by/paste/d53d3388d dmesg
[10:12:04] <pingufan> Valen: Exactly. But this can be mis-understood. "There is no need to..." means, that it is not necessary, but also not forbidden. This is wrong, when the latency-test outputs anything on the parallel port. The right words would be "There must nothing be connected to the parallel port during the latency test".
[10:19:18] <piasdom> hi
[10:46:50] <piasdom> is it a bug that i can't close the message window in axis 2.4.3,
[10:47:24] <piasdom> mostly the error messages but lately my messages are not closing
[11:11:30] <alex_joni> piasdom: close how?
[11:11:35] <alex_joni> ctrl-space? or [x] ?
[11:11:53] <piasdom> x
[11:12:06] <alex_joni> I think I saw something related, hang on
[11:12:17] <piasdom> didn't know about ctrl space
[11:12:28] <piasdom> the x moves lie it's working
[11:12:34] <piasdom> like
[11:12:48] <piasdom> k
[11:14:42] <piasdom> can i try ctrl-space while mill is running or will it do something i don't want :) ?
[11:15:24] <Fox_M|afk> Fox_M|afk is now known as Fox_Muldr
[11:16:04] <piasdom> ctrl-space closed all msg's
[11:20:27] <jthornton> piasdom: click on Help/Quick Reference
[11:20:48] <piasdom> ok
[11:21:40] <piasdom> jthornton: thanks ...
[11:22:09] <jthornton> np
[11:25:38] <SWPadnos> pingufan, the latency test should not output anything on the parallel port
[11:25:53] <SWPadnos> so it's not necessary, nor is it forbidden, to have a machine attached
[11:34:38] <pingufan> Thank you. Should be mentioned in the guide clearly.
[11:35:20] <pingufan> Such questions may appear strange to those who work long time with EMC2, but newcomers need that details.
[12:35:16] <mk0> strange thing. if i boot from live cd, i have no realtime delay error, and after installation i get it. maybe nvidia driver does smth? ubuntu 10.04 from cnclinux, emc2 2.4.3.
[12:40:44] <ries> mk0: try running it with the vga driver, that mighthelp
[12:50:52] <Valen> pingufan: there is no reason to not have anything connected to the parallel port
[14:31:25] <JT-Work> BobCrap is on sale for 50% off and it is still too high lol
[15:33:48] <Jymmm> JT-Work: ?
[15:34:23] <Jymmm> JT-Work: CrapDepot I know, what's BobCrap?
[15:34:40] <Jymmm> bobcat?
[15:35:10] <JT-Work> bobcad
[15:35:19] <Jymmm> oh, heh
[15:37:07] <Jymmm> Heh, looks like he pays google to be top ranked
[15:37:48] <Jymmm> but forgot to top his website hosting as the site is not responding
[15:37:57] <Jymmm> s/top/pay/
[15:45:08] <piasdom> does hyper-threading effect latency ?
[15:46:40] <piasdom> i lost a step somewhere and messed up a part
[15:47:08] <Jymmm> Been there, done that x5
[15:47:40] <piasdom> not fun
[15:58:48] <seb_kuzminsky> i have some momentary buttons on my new control panel, connected to mesa gpios so they show up as bit pins in hal
[15:59:13] <seb_kuzminsky> i poked through the motion manpage but couldnt see how to hook the buttons up to give me continuous jog when i hold then down
[15:59:23] <seb_kuzminsky> maybe i'm bad at reading...
[15:59:41] <cradek> for continuous jog you have to use halui
[15:59:46] <seb_kuzminsky> ah
[15:59:50] <cradek> motion itself only does wheel jogs
[16:00:07] <seb_kuzminsky> i see it, thanks!
[16:00:15] <seb_kuzminsky> i'll hook it up tonight :-)
[16:00:19] <cradek> well you have to use axis+halui or touchy (touchy itself has continuous jog button inputs)
[16:00:53] <seb_kuzminsky> what do i have to use axis for?
[16:00:56] <cradek> did you get a touchscreen or are you sticking with AXIS for a while?
[16:01:14] <seb_kuzminsky> i haven't bought a touchscreen yet
[16:01:20] <seb_kuzminsky> one day...
[16:01:39] <cradek> I meant use halui with AXIS the gui
[16:02:18] <seb_kuzminsky> gotcha
[16:04:00] <cradek> what will your panel use to set the jog speed? or do you just want rapids?
[16:04:56] <seb_kuzminsky> my plan for now is to just do rapids with the continuous jog buttons, and use the wheel for fine stuff
[16:05:12] <seb_kuzminsky> i have a rotary that selects .0001, .001, or .010 for each wheel click
[16:05:53] <seb_kuzminsky> and i ran out of inputs on my 7i37 so i only have continuous buttons for Z, not for x & y... :-(
[16:06:59] <cradek> your xyz rotary switch could change the axis for the continuous buttons too
[16:07:06] <awallin_> does the touchscreen act like an additional mouse?
[16:07:26] <cradek> yes, like a weird mouse
[16:08:09] <seb_kuzminsky> cradek: that's a good idea
[16:08:41] <seb_kuzminsky> and i actually have one more input, so i could make the xyz rotary into an x/y/z/jogspeed selector, then use the jogwheel to change the continuous jog speed...
[16:09:00] <cradek> seb_kuzminsky: I'm not so sure it is - you'll probably use "Z up" 100 times for every time you want any other continuous jog button
[16:09:24] <cradek> seb_kuzminsky: touchy uses the wheel exactly like that
[16:10:02] <cradek> maybe even require the rotary switch to be in the continuous position to both activate the buttons and use the wheel for speed
[16:10:36] <awallin_> do you have 2-monitor setups where the touch-screen is for touching and an AXIS 3d view on another monitor?
[16:11:07] <cradek> nope I haven't done that. I write/preview my gcode on a different computer and copy it to the machine when it's ready.
[16:11:28] <cradek> (I use AXIS on the other machine to preview and check it)
[16:17:34] <seb_kuzminsky> i sometimes find it useful to look at the axis preview and manually jog around the outline to make sure i miss all the clamps, i think that's a feature i'd miss if i switched to touchy
[16:18:17] <cradek> yeah
[16:19:00] <cradek> I understand the preview part of AXIS is now available separately ("gremlin") so it could be stuck on a touchy tab. I don't know the details though.
[16:20:14] <awallin_> nothing in the wiki about "gremlin"
[16:20:36] <awallin_> I'm working slowly on a cutting simulation, that would be nice too...
[16:22:41] <cradek> right now touchy is very lightweight and always extrememly responsive - I'm kind of hesitant to give that up. AXIS can easily get fairly slow with big gcode programs.
[16:23:08] <cradek> (but I bet just being able to turn the preview on and off would help that a lot.)
[16:29:14] <IchGuckLive> hi all from germany
[16:36:21] <CaptainW> Guten Tag.
[16:42:24] <Tech_Talk> Tech_Talk is now known as Birdman3131
[16:47:15] <maximilian_h> hello, is there a way to get the value of emcmot_command_t.motion_type to hal
[16:47:18] <maximilian_h> ?
[16:48:48] <cradek> motion could be made to do it, just like how it gives program-line and current-vel etc
[16:49:05] <cradek> I'd be happy to review a patch to git-master that adds this functionality
[16:49:18] <maximilian_h> so I just copy & paste and send a git patch ?
[16:49:32] <maximilian_h> 'just' ;)
[16:50:33] <cradek> well something like that.
[16:50:53] <maximilian_h> Ok, I'll try that
[16:53:58] <JT-Work> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Git#Prepare_commits_to_share_with_fellow_developers
[17:20:10] <srpski> srpski is now known as Dannyboy
[17:23:43] <IchGuckLive> Why im not promted in the wiki to overright a existing file ? it just uploads it!
[17:27:59] <IchGuckLive> addeted Circel grid G-code ->http://www.pictureupload.de/originals/pictures/250810192728_grid_v1_circelgrid.png
[17:31:52] <IchGuckLive> Hoe is the standart for the first move you go with it
[17:32:01] <IchGuckLive> Z-safe then position
[17:32:09] <IchGuckLive> or position then Zsafe
[17:32:20] <IchGuckLive> iso is Zsafe first
[17:38:31] <IchGuckLive> still someone here ?
[17:41:41] <Jymmm> JUST FYI.... MSC took multiple promo coupons, free shipping and 25% off first order.
[17:41:42] <JT-Work> just me
[17:42:02] <JT-Work> 35% off cutting tools today too
[17:42:16] <Jymmm> http://www.retailmenot.com/view/mscdirect.com
[17:42:26] <JT-Work> promo code ctb35w
[17:42:33] <IchGuckLive> im in germany so it not depends on me
[17:45:56] <IchGuckLive> piasdom: ?
[17:47:05] <Jymmm> JT-Work: Yeah, i had to get soem gas springs, was like $4 short of free shipping, then added sharpie markers, then added the 25% off first order =)
[17:47:21] <JT-Work> cool
[17:47:41] <JT-Work> I usually have enough gas to spring me up
[17:48:07] <Jymmm> thats what I'm afraid of, and why I placed the order =)
[17:48:32] <Jymmm> Now to hit HF today and buy a dust collector *sigh*
[17:48:59] <piasdom> IchGuckLive: yes /
[17:49:02] <piasdom> ?
[17:49:13] <Jymmm> I'm not happy about it, but really not much choice
[17:49:31] <IchGuckLive> how went the calibration
[17:49:41] <Jymmm> JT-Work: http://www.harborfreight.com/1-hp-mini-dust-collector-94029.html
[17:50:20] <IchGuckLive> Jymmm: this looks noicy
[17:50:38] <piasdom> IchGuckLive: didn't get a chance yet .... need to get these parts out ... hoping not to mess up any more parts :) , but will let you kow
[17:50:53] <Jymmm> IchGuckLive: Thats why I'm not happy about it, but at least it's speed controllable so that may help some
[17:51:36] <IchGuckLive> speed control means less power
[17:51:53] <IchGuckLive> what dust to collect wood
[17:52:11] <Jymmm> That's fine, being used for ventilation, not particals. for exhaust of laser engraver
[17:52:48] <IchGuckLive> CO2 150kW
[17:52:59] <Jymmm> 30W CO2
[17:54:33] <IchGuckLive> http://www.rofin.de/index.php?L=1
[17:54:51] <IchGuckLive> thats what my naibour working for
[17:56:43] <Jymmm> Nah, just 30W =)
[17:56:47] <IchGuckLive> Jymmm: is it watercoold at that powerlevel
[17:56:54] <Jymmm> no, air
[17:57:33] <IchGuckLive> the new Neodyn are nice
[18:10:03] <IchGuckLive> ok ba for today now only the circulargrid with individuell lines is left to get to the g-code generator
[18:17:56] <Jymmm> Ok, they're fscking with me... yesterday they had stock, today maybe 1 *sigh*
[20:21:53] <andypugh> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CNC-Lathe-Back-Auto-Tool-Changer-/250687278583
[20:22:00] <andypugh> Might be of use to somebody
[20:33:10] <Dave911> andy.. seems like a really good deal ...
[20:35:16] <Dave911> AndyPugh: I have a few questions about the motor commutation work you did for brushless motors .... is there any documentation on using those components?
[20:35:53] <Dave911> I was really busy when you were doing that and wasn't able to keep up with you.... while you were writing the components
[20:37:44] <andypugh> There are the man pages, but if you have any other questions, just ask. http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html//man/man9/bldc_hall3.9.html
[20:48:00] <andypugh> If you have a motor, and a Hostmot2 bitfile with three-phase PWM with a hall-sensor motor then the best plan is just to cycle through all the patterns in "Show HAL config" until the motor spins quietly
[21:17:03] <Dave911> andypugh: Sorry long phone call.. Is there one motor driver board that this component was tested with? Are there others that are also compatible? Are you happy with the results?
[21:17:55] <andypugh> It is so-far only tested with the Mesa 7i39
[21:18:07] <andypugh> And yes, I am very happy with the results.
[21:18:53] <NTU> hello everybody! I need some help. /usr/realtime/modules/emc2/hal_parport.ko won't load (It's a kernel module of which EMC depends on) but there is a problem. My kernel was compiled without parallel support and the module is trying to load certain symbols which isn't included with my kernel. I was wondering if anybody knows what options to have on or set as a module under "Parallel port Support" under the kernel config. If you have no idea what I am t
[21:18:53] <NTU> alking about and you are using the EMC ubuntu live CD or have already installed it, please post the output of the following command to pastebin.com: cat /boot/config-`uname -r` | grep PARPORT and if you could please post all lines to pastebin.com to help me solve my issue, that would be great. Thank you so so much!
[21:20:09] <andypugh> NTU: Do you _have_ to use your current kernel? It might be easier to use the pre-packaged kernel, then it should "Just work"
[21:20:17] <Dave911> andypugh: Cool... I think I am going to try and implement something later this fall/winter and see what I can do with that. Thanks for all of the effort.. I can tell it was a lot of work.
[21:20:43] <NTU> andypugh: I am adding support for linux distros of which are not supported by EMC
[21:20:52] <andypugh> Actually, it wasn't too bad. And I learned an awful lot about motors in the process.
[21:21:06] <Dave911> andypugh: Did the Mesa 7i39 work well with those big motors you bought off ebay?
[21:21:28] <andypugh> No, not at all, the voltage is way too high for the 7i39.
[21:21:52] <Dave911> OK... I didn't remember the specs other than they looked pretty big! :-)
[21:22:58] <Dave911> NTU: Which distros are you trying to implement and why? .. just curious
[21:23:13] <andypugh> I will be experimenting with an 8I20 fairly soon, but the real plan is to replace the Arduino in this setup with a 3ppwm from EMC2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyeJfNg3NfQ
[21:24:00] <andypugh> That is basically a rectifier, capacitor and a £12 smart power module (IRAMS10UP60A)
[21:24:26] <NTU> well right now I'm doing Arch Linux, and the reason why is because I don't use Ubuntu, nor do I want to.
[21:25:39] <andypugh> Fair enough, but personally I can't be bothered to care what OS my dedicated CNC PCs use.
[21:28:28] <Dave911> I agree Andy ..... Ubuntu works reliably and the price is right ..
[21:28:36] <andypugh> But, anyway, that cat / grep syntax didn't work for me.
[21:28:46] <NTU> make sure its ` and not '
[21:28:55] <andypugh> Ah, OK
[21:29:18] <NTU> apostrophe != the wavy thingy. whatever its called ;)
[21:29:37] <andypugh> All a bit tricky, that is.
[21:29:39] <Dave911> tilde ??
[21:30:30] <andypugh> It is "`" in this window, but "§" in the EMC VM window
[21:31:44] <andypugh> You probably need someone who isn't using a UK Mac keyboard under OSX and running the EMC machine as a VM.
[21:32:06] <Dave911> I think you meant "~" ??
[21:32:12] <NTU> no.
[21:32:22] <Dave911> andypugh.... you lead a complex life.. ;-)
[21:33:02] <Dave911> I'll give it a shot .... I have an emc system running right behind me .. be back in a minute..
[21:33:14] <NTU> Thank you! :D
[21:37:41] <andypugh> The real pain is that I have no idea how to get # on the VM or SSH to the live machine. That makes editing HAL file comments a bit tricky
[21:40:12] <NTU> andypugh: You can force a different keyboard map via xorg.conf
[21:40:44] <andypugh> There is no # on the keyboard though (It's Alt-£)
[21:41:06] <genehacker> what is probe in on the parallel port pin out?
[21:41:08] <NTU> or just use something like "setckbmap dvorak" or something similar
[21:41:21] <NTU> *setxkbmap
[21:44:00] <packrat> so, the detroit hackerspace just got a 14x40 lathe
[21:44:08] <packrat> thoughts on the cost to make that bugger cnc?
[21:44:12] <Dave911> NTU: I had problems with the command line ... so I pastebined he entire config rtai file... so you can sort it out ... here it is: http://pastebin.com/Dj6xJ5n4
[21:44:20] <packrat> its in great condition and doesnt need any rebuilding
[21:44:27] <Dave911> That was off of a 2.4.0 installation
[21:44:35] <NTU> Thanks Dave911!
[21:45:13] <packrat> anyone?
[21:45:23] <Dave911> Also with Ubuntu 10.04 .... so I hope that is what you were looking for .. No problem .. that PC is literally 3 steps away
[21:46:12] <Dave911> packrat: Is that a manual lathe?
[21:46:14] <andypugh> packrat: I guess minimum is about $150. The more you spend, the more useful it gets.
[21:46:19] <NTU> yeah I found all the PARPORT options I needed. Now that I finally have the kernel config nailed down pretty solid, it should be very easy to add support to fedora, and others
[21:46:39] <NTU> EMC and RTAI for everybody!
[21:46:45] <Dave911> NTU: Nice ..
[21:46:46] <packrat> Dave911, yeah. its an Acer 1440g, if that means anything
[21:47:25] <andypugh> packrat: I reckon my lathe conversion came to $1500 all-in, the little stuff adds up pretty quickly.
[21:47:44] <Dave911> packrat: Are you in Detroit?
[21:47:47] <packrat> yes
[21:47:58] <packrat> Ferndale, reallu
[21:48:01] <packrat> really*
[21:48:08] <packrat> but, close enoguh
[21:48:15] <packrat> gah, cant type today
[21:48:21] <Dave911> I'm near Fort Wayne, IN .. not that far..
[21:48:25] <packrat> also, ugh. 1500
[21:48:31] <packrat> thats a helluvalot
[21:48:41] <packrat> we also have a mill
[21:48:48] <packrat> so we can cut our own adapters and such
[21:48:49] <andypugh> I have been trading time for money a fair bit
[21:48:56] <Dave911> Lots of nice machine tools floating around the Detroit area right now
[21:48:59] <packrat> if that defrays costs much
[21:49:06] <packrat> Dave911, you'd be surprised
[21:49:12] <packrat> theyre not as nice as you may think
[21:49:26] <andypugh> But things like timing pulleys and belts soon add up.
[21:49:31] <packrat> michigan weather + sitting in warehouse for a few years = ugh
[21:49:45] <packrat> ah, are those really that expensive?
[21:50:03] <andypugh> No, $20 a time. But it all adds up
[21:50:14] <packrat> how many does one need?
[21:50:25] <Dave911> Michigan weather ... tell me about it .. we have more humidity and crappy winter weather than you do.. hard to believe .... I grew up in Livonia.
[21:50:50] <packrat> heh. i lived in grand rapids for a long while
[21:51:04] <packrat> that was really fun in the winter
[21:51:06] <Dave911> So you know about snow.. ;-)
[21:51:12] <packrat> of course
[21:51:57] <Dave911> I could not live in the snow belt on the west side of the state .. way too much white stuff.
[21:52:16] <Dave911> We get an inch.. they get a foot..
[21:52:32] <andypugh> packrat: Lump of Aluminium, in a hurry, eBay, $20.
[21:53:12] <Dave911> packrat: Have you looked for a used CNC lathe with a busted control?? A much easier conversion process ....
[21:54:18] <Dave911> I could burn through $1500 easy converting a manual lathe and when you are done you still have lead screws, not ball screws etc..
[21:55:16] <Dave911> If you shop Ebay very carefully you can get some very good deals on motors and drives, but it take a lot of patience and time...
[21:55:25] <andypugh> I think you can just about get ballscrews into the $1500
[21:55:56] <Dave911> Oh yea ...
[21:56:54] <packrat> Dave911, its a bit late to look for busted cncs
[21:56:58] <packrat> we already have on lathe
[21:57:02] <packrat> spent 2k on it
[21:57:12] <packrat> one*
[21:57:17] <Dave911> If you can pickup a broken CNC lathe for $1000 you might be a lot further along ... many people run from broken CNC machines.. and they sell for less than scrap value since you have to move them to the junkyard
[21:57:32] <packrat> weve never been that lucky
[21:57:48] <packrat> usually end up being outbid by others with more money than us
[21:58:22] <andypugh> packrat: Cheapest ballscrews I have found...
[21:58:25] <packrat> anyways, its waaay too late to try and dump this for a cnc
[21:58:33] <Dave911> They are around... craigslist works well also.. Try out Craiglook.com no bidding there.
[21:58:52] <packrat> yeah, we got the lathe on craigslist
[21:59:12] <andypugh> http://www.slidesandballscrews.com/sf1605-single-ballnut-p-443.html?cPath=39_128_131
[21:59:17] <packrat> http://detroit.craigslist.org/okl/mat/1912674047.html
[21:59:23] <packrat> :3
[21:59:36] <packrat> though isnt there usually slop in ball screws?
[22:00:11] <andypugh> No, though there might be elasticity. You need double ones to get zero backlash and stiffness
[22:00:42] <Dave911> The double ones you can preload between the nuts - getting rid of backlash
[22:00:45] <packrat> i was reading someone did a conversion of a bridgeport
[22:00:53] <packrat> was all "wtf is this slop"
[22:01:41] <packrat> anyways, ya'll think those are good screws?
[22:01:59] <Dave911> That is the problem with sticking with leadscrews... how do you deal with the backlash?? Backlash is a big problem in CNC land.. There is really no good way to compensate for it without big compromise
[22:02:10] <packrat> yeah
[22:02:39] <packrat> thats why you have direct positional feedback though
[22:03:01] <Dave911> Could be great, could be junk. $75 is dirt cheap Ask lots of questions
[22:03:03] <packrat> for that matter, i figured thats where the most cost would be
[22:03:11] <Dave911> Do you mean scales?
[22:03:14] <packrat> yeah
[22:03:23] <packrat> (i think?)
[22:03:32] <SWPadnos> backlash isn't fixed with scales, they just let you see how far your machine wanders
[22:03:36] <packrat> position readout/feedback
[22:03:58] <Jymmm> I thought glass scales dont do good on rapids?
[22:04:18] <Dave911> A lot of them can't update quickly ..
[22:04:37] <packrat> why is that
[22:04:45] <SWPadnos> I know that's true with the chinese scales people try to use (the ones from large calipers or such)
[22:06:26] <Dave911> Many CNC machines can run fast rapids which outrun the ability of the scales to keep up.. It is like everything else, performance oftentimes costs $
[22:06:55] <Jymmm> Can anyone think of a "common" audio level reference that can be recorded and compared to other things?
[22:07:13] <andypugh> Pistonphone
[22:07:21] <Jymmm> andypugh: say what?
[22:07:22] <andypugh> (Not much help, I suspect)
[22:07:46] <Jymmm> andypugh: Maybe, if I knew wth it is =)
[22:07:47] <andypugh> http://www.bksv.com/products/telecomaudiosolutions/electroacousticsaccessories/pistonphonetype4228.aspx
[22:08:17] <Jymmm> oh, looks $$$$$$$$$
[22:08:48] <Jymmm> No, kinda like I said this generator/fan/blow/motor is "this loud"
[22:08:56] <Dave911> I was thinking the $ame.
[22:09:05] <andypugh> About $10k
[22:09:16] <Jymmm> Ah, more like $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
[22:09:17] <Dave911> Why not just get a sound pressure meter??
[22:09:25] <Jymmm> Dave911: Do you have one?
[22:09:27] <andypugh> That's for calibrating SPLs
[22:09:57] <Dave911> No ... but I know the audio guys use them all of the time ... for setting up shows etc..
[22:10:01] <Jymmm> Dave911: Would do much good if I sent you a recording to compare with =)
[22:10:29] <Jymmm> I'm talking common that you would find arond the house/shop sorta thing
[22:10:41] <Dave911> I could adjust my speakers to match what you want .. ;-)
[22:10:58] <Jymmm> Dave911: That's the issue, adjust them to what level =)
[22:11:10] <andypugh> It's not trivial
[22:11:24] <Jymmm> andypugh: True enough
[22:11:44] <Dave911> There is a music store just west of me ... let me check their website ...
[22:11:48] <Jymmm> But if there's something commonplace that wew all coudl compare against, that might work
[22:12:50] <Dave911> http://www.sweetwater.com/store/search.php?s=sound+meter&go=Search
[22:13:10] <Jymmm> Just think about it over the next few days and see what you a\can HEAR around your homes that might work for others
[22:13:16] <andypugh> Wike Decibel, you will probably find a rough scale
[22:13:37] <Dave911> I'm with Andy .... not trivial..
[22:13:39] <Jymmm> Rs has an audio db meter,
[22:13:48] <Jymmm> but not everyone does
[22:13:56] <Dave911> Jymmm.. what are you trying to compare ??
[22:14:06] <Jymmm> Dave911: anythign really
[22:14:14] <Dave911> Like a gas lawn mower to a ??
[22:14:37] <Jymmm> anything 40dBa or higher
[22:15:02] <andypugh> They would pay me a lot less if it was trivial, I work on vehicle NVH
[22:15:34] <Dave911> andy.. what is NVH?
[22:15:36] <Jymmm> Left column "Generator sound level comparison" http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/modeldetail.aspx?page=modeldetail&section=P2GG&modelname=EU2000i&modelid=EU2000IAN
[22:16:07] <Jymmm> compressors, power tools, gas tools, window AC, etc
[22:16:23] <andypugh> Noise Vibration Harshness
[22:16:53] <Jymmm> I want to record all kinds of things, then use them to compare other things
[22:17:12] <Dave911> Ohhh.. hey.. generators are oftentimes judged by the noise at 23 feet or so ... can you talk normally and understand what another person is saying who is in front of you ..... that translates into x decibels for a generator
[22:17:18] <Jymmm> blender, microwave, frig, etc
[22:17:46] <Jymmm> Dave911: I can talk at normal level around mine generator
[22:18:05] <Dave911> Put the generator in your kitchen next to your blender, start it up and see which is louder :-)
[22:18:28] <Dave911> Jymmm.. I know you can.. I remember :-) I'm still jealous.. ;-)
[22:18:45] <andypugh> inside a car at idle, 65dB. Underneath Concorde at 1000ft takeoff 130 dB
[22:19:28] <SWPadnos> http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103668
[22:19:38] <SWPadnos> http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103667
[22:20:58] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: Yeah, planning on borrwing one of those. But not eveyone has one
[22:21:15] <SWPadnos> but if you have one, then you can measure all the things you want
[22:21:24] <Dave911> Andy... when is Ford going to start exporting some of those cool Euro diesel engines to the USA?? After we got low sulphur diesel a bunch of engines were suppose to show up in cars here.. hasn't happened yet!
[22:21:26] <SWPadnos> recording and playing back sounds isn't very scientific
[22:21:30] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: But ppl have cordless drills, microwave ovens, cars, fans, etc
[22:21:55] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: And I'm not a scientist, I just play one on IRC
[22:22:05] <SWPadnos> sure, but they can't record and play back at the same level very accurately
[22:22:19] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: That's the point
[22:22:32] <SWPadnos> um. so your idea of recording sounds to compare is not viable
[22:22:59] <SWPadnos> in any case, I have to dash your hopes and run. see you later ;)
[22:23:08] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: If I record a microwave oven, then someone plays it back and adhusts to the level of their simular oven, it would give a good comparison
[22:23:32] <andypugh> You should get my engine in the new Mondeo some time next year
[22:23:33] <Jymmm> but i want to find a good refernce
[22:24:41] <andypugh> Currently I am driving a 200hp 2.2 litre showing 37mpg on the trip gauge, but it has only been used round town so far.
[22:25:50] <Dave911> Cool ... Mondeo .. I'll look that up. Can you buy a Ford Fiesta in Europe with a diesel?? Not here! But at least we have the Fiesta again..
[22:26:12] <Dave911> 200 hp from 2.2 liter ... is that a gas engine??
[22:26:43] <andypugh> Yes, we have diesel Fiestas in 1.4 and 1.6 diesel. They hit 60+ mpg
[22:26:59] <andypugh> Dave911: Turbo Diesel
[22:27:25] <Dave911> Why don't they bring those over here?? Wow.. a 2.2 liter 200 hp turbo diesel .. :-)
[22:28:22] <Dave911> Ford and GM must think that US folks don't like diesels ...
[22:30:57] <andypugh> The problem is LA. Because you have a very big, very hot city in a deep hole you have NOx legislation that diesels really struggle to meet.
[22:32:41] <Dave911> No problem... ban their sale in CA. We still have 49 other states ...
[22:33:47] <Dave911> LA is simply a mess from an air standpoint. It always has been. It is like our Mexico City..
[22:35:40] <Dave911> Actually LA is a mess period.. I used to travel there quite a bit. Their freeways are sometimes mistaken for parking lots..
[22:37:05] <Dave911> I think a Fiesta Turbo Diesel would be a huge hit in this country....
[22:37:55] <andypugh> We had a bunch of North America bigwigs came to try the euro cars a few months back "That a nice car, but we really came to try the diesels" "this one is a diesel" "no, really?"
[22:46:11] <Valen> Jymmm: our scales seem to keep up fine
[22:47:40] <Valen> at 6 meters a minute
[22:48:24] <Valen> heh my car gets ~ less than half that
[22:48:40] <Valen> 4L and about 200hp
[22:49:56] <Valen> 164Kw
[22:51:38] <L84Supper> hmm.. what's good price range for used but in good shape "Made in China" lathes?... I found few in one place with ~1HP 1P motor, ~30" between centers
[22:53:48] <andypugh> I wouldn't. Mine seized up last night. SOmebody forgot to drill the oil hole for the spindle bearing.
[22:54:03] <Valen> heh
[22:54:04] <L84Supper> oh great
[22:54:27] <Valen> our chinese mill, the screw for the gib wasnt tapped all the way through
[22:54:41] <Valen> so you did it up tight, but it still rattled
[22:55:22] <andypugh> Buy something second hand made in the US, UK, or germany in about 1960
[22:56:05] <andypugh> Spindle bearings ought to run in an oil bath, not occasional drip feed when the user remembers..
[22:56:14] <Valen> our spindle bearings actually run on the casting itself
[22:56:38] <L84Supper> I found a shop outside Chicago selling everything, mills, plasma cutters, mig welders, lathes, band saws etc etc
[22:58:08] <L84Supper> he's trying to sell me the whole lot
[22:58:37] <Valen> heh a small premium on scrap value i'd wager
[22:59:24] <L84Supper> all pretty new stuff, miller migs and plasma cutters, the only junk seems to be the 3 lathes
[23:13:48] <L84Supper> build vs buy as always..... emc2 really changes the way you look at machines
[23:15:34] <skunkworks> you have emc2 goggles on?
[23:19:12] <L84Supper> any feedback on these? http://www.gunhead.com/GMW/index.html
[23:21:10] <andypugh> I saw it and thought "ewww" then saw the price, and was aghast.
[23:21:13] <alex_chally> L84Supper, it is really, really small
[23:21:22] <alex_chally> oh wow
[23:21:29] <alex_chally> $2500 put together>
[23:21:30] <alex_chally> wtf
[23:21:35] <alex_chally> is it cast in silver or something>
[23:21:52] <alex_chally> does it use steppers with superconducting wire?
[23:21:53] <L84Supper> yeah, full price is crazy
[23:22:24] <alex_chally> and for a machine that small..
[23:22:31] <alex_chally> have you ever seen a 7x14 lathe?
[23:22:40] <alex_chally> like, in real life
[23:23:17] <alex_chally> also they are really bad at programing for it
[23:24:02] <alex_chally> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7asZDiJPXj8&feature=player_embedded#t=5m6s
[23:24:09] <alex_chally> why would you plunge like that on every pass?
[23:24:22] <alex_chally> why not start from the other side and ease into the cut properly?
[23:25:36] <andypugh> Hands up everyone who has ever thought "gee! I wish this lathe was smaller!"
[23:25:44] <L84Supper> hah!
[23:26:20] <L84Supper> maybe they're popular with watchmakers?
[23:28:38] <alex_chally> L84Supper, they all use the sherline stuff
[23:28:39] <alex_chally> actually
[23:28:51] <alex_chally> the only watchmaker i know personally uses a monarch 10EE
[23:29:02] <alex_chally> and a little ittbitty collet set on it
[23:29:07] <L84Supper> lots of small cnc hobby machines I'm not aware of
[23:29:52] <Valen> when they say "metal lathe" they are talking about what its made out of right?
[23:30:26] <L84Supper> "pocket" lathe
[23:30:27] <Valen> it sounds noisy even before its cutting anything
[23:31:02] <andypugh> I think the mood of the room is "unimpressed"
[23:31:05] <L84Supper> "those are just the bearings settling in, they quite down after the check clears"
[23:31:17] <Valen> like the backlash
[23:32:26] <alex_chally> L84Supper, I would get something like this instead
[23:32:26] <alex_chally> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7vw50-ApDc&feature=related
[23:32:38] <alex_chally> for a close up
[23:32:39] <alex_chally> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmRkBx_qCqc&feature=related
[23:32:52] <L84Supper> I do have room for it now :)
[23:33:53] <L84Supper> do they have a video of the bolt that goes with that?
[23:34:43] <andypugh> I can't imagine why you would ever design that as a threaded joint
[23:35:01] <alex_chally> andypugh, i was trying to figure that out myself
[23:35:06] <alex_chally> I have never seen a thread that large
[23:35:13] <alex_chally> wtf do you turn it with?
[23:35:15] <alex_chally> a crane?
[23:35:19] <alex_chally> a huuuuuuuge strap wrench?
[23:35:53] <L84Supper> hand me the 13' 6" spanner.... it's next to the 20' #10 phillips
[23:37:12] <alex_chally> well, now that i think about it for a second
[23:37:28] <alex_chally> if they had some mechanisim built into the structure that is attached to for threading it and unthreading it
[23:37:31] <alex_chally> it could be pretty easy
[23:37:39] <alex_chally> some gear on the outside that drives it or something
[23:37:49] <alex_chally> if for some reason it needed regular maintinance
[23:38:02] <alex_chally> it would suck to have to undo 150 bolts every time you needed to take it apart
[23:39:18] <L84Supper> typed in MIG, I probably should have specified the welder vs the aircraft
[23:41:38] <Valen> you can use them to hold a bridge up perhaps? http://media.photobucket.com/image/harbor%20bridge%20bolts/Asquith1/SHB09.jpg
[23:42:27] <Valen> though that is a little larger
[23:42:55] <Valen> shaft seal on a big container ship prop or something like that would be my guess
[23:44:22] <andypugh> 150 small bolts will give you hugely more clamping force
[23:45:18] <andypugh> http://superbolt.com/
[23:45:27] <Valen> i'm guessing it was done for a good reason
[23:45:27] <andypugh> Lots of little ones is just better
[23:46:16] <Jymmm> Valen: feel fortunate then =)
[23:46:16] <andypugh> Valen: Oh, I agree. I am curious what, though.
[23:47:39] <alex_chally> y'all are a bunch of nerds
[23:47:53] <andypugh> No? Really?
[23:48:17] <Valen> 's why i recon its some kind of a shaft seal
[23:48:33] <Valen> probably goes on the spinning bit
[23:50:13] <andypugh> I still maintain that there was probably a cheaper design available.
[23:51:45] <Valen> perhaps, but if it means taking the shaft out of a container ship to drill and tap 400 M8 bolts into it then it might still be cheaper to do it this way
[23:51:53] <Valen> its probably not that expensive anyway
[23:52:10] <Valen> i mean you get a bit of plasma cut 6" plate steel pretty cheap
[23:52:29] <Valen> if the guy has the big lathe sitting there its not going to cost billions to get it cut
[23:52:51] <andypugh> If it was a CNC lathe, then it is different, but it does not seem to be.
[23:53:29] <Valen> if its a one off like that its probably cheaper to pay a guy to machine it (it looks pretty simple) than to get the gcode written
[23:53:50] <Valen> take the same amount of time overall, except this way your paying some guy ~ minimum wage vs an IT guy
[23:53:51] <andypugh> I thread stuff because I can't be bothered to set up the welder on the CNC (and with totally wierd threads to suit, too)
[23:54:12] <Valen> I want to do CnC welding ;->
[23:54:25] <alex_chally> Valen, I would not put someone who was making min wage on a machine like that
[23:54:50] <Valen> give him the beer after he finishes