#emc | Logs for 2010-07-30

[15:43:36] <ChanServ> [#emc] "This is the #emc channel - talk related to the Enhanced Machine Controller and general machining. Website: http://www.linuxcnc.org/, wiki at http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/"
[15:48:57] <ichudov_> Guys, the "F" parameter (speed), is it in units per minute, or is it as percentage of max speed?
[15:51:36] <JT-Work> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html//common_machining_center.html#sub:Feed-Rate
[15:52:40] <ichudov_> thankx
[15:54:15] <JT-Work> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html//gcode_main.html#sub:G93,-G94:-Set
[15:56:13] <cradek> yeah, F can mean different things depending on your mode
[15:59:18] <ichudov_> OK, thanks, that was educational. I spent 4 hours cleaning the coolant sump last night, it was a dirty job. I now need to figure out how to use that and2 and or2 logic component to get what I want with thebehavior of flood coolant. Anyone has any sampl config files that do something similar?
[16:00:00] <cradek> ichudov_: have you gone through the hal tutorial or beginners guide? http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.4/html/hal_basic_hal.html
[16:02:41] <cradek> JT-Work: in 1.1.4 maybe the picture would be better if there were several readers. this is something people ask about all the time (like: how do I drive two signals with one pin?)
[16:03:24] <mrsun> damn the anti backlash settings in emc works great =)
[16:03:29] <JT-Work> good idea, that would be simple to do
[16:03:32] <mrsun> 0.16mm bashlash before, 0.000 after :P
[16:03:37] <mrsun> quite impressive =)
[16:15:31] <Srpski> Srpski is now known as Dannyboy
[16:30:18] <Jymmm> Hey guys, I don't know if you really care or not, but Fry's has on sale CorelDraw X4 for $30 (after rebates) home and Student edition.
[16:30:47] <Jymmm> (it can import/export PDF, DXF, SVG, PS, etc)
[16:31:16] <cradek> is that a clone of inkscape?
[16:31:32] <Jymmm> Inkscape is really a stripped clone of CorelDraw
[16:33:11] <bricofoy> yeah, but free, and with gcode plugin :)
[16:33:33] <Jymmm> Well, if your good at VB, you cna write one =)
[16:34:15] <Jymmm> Hey, I just as much of a cheap bastard as the rest of you, but CorelDraw is well worth $30 imo.
[16:35:04] <cradek> Jymmm: I don't use Free software just because of the price... (and does it even run on linux?)
[16:35:11] <Jymmm> Just hte sheer ability to import a PDF, edit it, hten output again alone is worth it.
[16:35:44] <Jymmm> Not version 14, no. I think Version 10 runs on linux
[16:36:55] <Jymmm> I'm not here to debates, just to inform. I've used gimp, Photoshop, inkscape, illustrator, and still feel that CorelDraw is far better than all of them.
[16:37:13] <Jymmm> As well as page layout, DTP, etc.
[16:37:37] <Jymmm> plus Pantone color matching,etc
[16:40:48] <probotix> hi guys - i am about to upgrade my pick-n-place machine to run 10.04 (its currently running 6.06)
[16:41:28] <probotix> the install script dies saying it cannot find emc2
[16:41:34] <probotix> is this a repository issue
[16:44:50] <probotix> and I concur with Jymmm, Corel draw is the best - if gimp and inkscape were even close to what photoshop and corel are, i'd have dumped windows a long time ago
[16:46:20] <SWPadnos> gimp has most of the features of Photoshop, but organized differently (it looks like the gimpshop project has stalled, but I'm not sure)
[16:46:34] <SWPadnos> I definitely agree that Corel is the best drawing program ever made though
[17:01:46] <lepton> Hey everybody - thanks for all the help over the past month. Our machine is finally up and cutting!
[17:02:00] <skunkworks> we need video! ;)
[17:03:00] <lepton> Ask and you shall recieve: http://qik.com/video/9890345
[17:03:05] <lepton> That's a random video from a couple of days ago
[17:03:34] <lepton> Doing finishing passes on 4x8' plywood sheets to clean up the corners of squares we had cut out for an inlay of marble
[17:03:42] <lepton> All for a friend's art show that's opening next week
[17:03:51] <lepton> Soon we'll be back to cutting lots of aluminum for scuba equipment
[17:04:05] <lepton> amongst other things (Burning man stuff next weekend)
[17:04:59] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: Yeah, and for $30 (home and student edition) of corelDraw X4, you cna't beat it
[17:05:01] <skunkworks> very cool. was this a new build or a retrofit?
[17:05:08] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: You cna install on up to three computers too
[17:05:50] <lepton> retrofit. It started as a shopbot, we did a lot of mechanical improvements for 6 months or so, and then switched over to EMC over the course of July
[17:05:55] <elmo40> plus, Corel Draw is (was?) Canadian ;)
[17:06:01] <Jymmm> is
[17:06:03] <lepton> We're going to be making a brand new machine next month
[17:06:20] <skunkworks> lepton: what was the original control and how did it perform?
[17:06:41] <elmo40> wow, that qik.com just froze my firefox!
[17:07:01] <skunkworks> heh - ran fine on IE ;)
[17:07:05] <skunkworks> shocker
[17:07:10] <lepton> The origional control was via shopbot's Windows XP based software
[17:07:16] <skunkworks> ah
[17:07:18] <lepton> it was incredibly awful and dangerous
[17:07:22] <skunkworks> heh
[17:07:35] <lepton> I've complained about it quite a bit on here before :/
[17:08:17] <lepton> It, for example, controlled spindle spindle / on/off by having one program write a windows registry value, and having another program read it, and yet another program send that over USB to a usb serial converter to tell the spindle to start/stop
[17:08:20] <lepton> scary
[17:08:38] <elmo40> ouch. talk about latency issues!
[17:08:43] <lepton> Running EMC with Mesa hardware is amazing in comparison
[17:08:58] <elmo40> this is that belt setup I want to do with my plasma machine. http://www.bell-everman.com/servobelt.html
[17:09:00] <skunkworks> Great!
[17:09:20] <lepton> We're using Solidworks / Solidcam for our CAD/CAM, which is working quite well, too
[17:09:52] <elmo40> never used solidcam, but solidworks rocks!
[17:09:53] <lepton> I'd be happier if it was all FOSS, but I'm still very pleased all the same :)
[17:10:21] <skunkworks> I am sorry - FOSS?
[17:10:31] <lepton> Also, I did a one line of code fix for jepler's old Arduino/HAL interface
[17:10:37] <lepton> free open source software
[17:10:41] <skunkworks> duh
[17:10:47] <lepton> Solidworks is the only reason I run Windows :/
[17:14:56] <lepton> Oh yes, that reminds me that Solidworks is planning on releasing a remote-client version of their software, including OSX and Linux support
[17:15:16] <lepton> With a remote server doing all the heavy lifting for simulations, optimization, etc
[17:15:42] <lepton> So in theory we can all sit around on Linux boxes and Android tablets and run Solidworks on a remote server, including CAM process
[17:15:43] <lepton> ing
[17:15:49] <elmo40> so now I will need 2 computers for one app? :/
[17:16:12] <elmo40> time to get an octo-core Blade Server :-D
[17:16:12] <lepton> Oh, no, you just log on like it's a web service
[17:16:32] <lepton> So you could theoretically run Solidworks on anything with a remote client app written for it
[17:18:19] <mozmck_work> Solidworks is one of the reasons I don't run windows...
[17:18:59] <lepton> I miss having Pro-E in linux
[17:19:01] <lepton> years ago
[17:19:23] <mozmck_work> It's another windows software I don't have so I don't need to run windows for it :)
[17:23:56] <elmo40> lol
[17:24:51] <elmo40> as for the belt drive. this is the spec: two steel reinforced polyurethane timing belts, bi-directional accuracy to ±60 microns, acceleration to 4 g and speeds to 5 m/sec (no load, I bet)
[17:25:46] <elmo40> looks like one is laying down (screwed to the rail?) and the other is on top connected to the motor in a little bend.
[17:25:52] <elmo40> http://www.tacticalmarcomms.com/assets/1255712215.jpg
[17:27:24] <elmo40> that would theoretically have only a few inches of potential belt stretch.
[17:28:07] <elmo40> compared to having a huge looped timing belt going around 2 pulleys at either end of travel.
[17:33:42] <ichudov_> join #linux-ha
[17:39:57] <elmo40> linux-ha? hardware? Hungarian? high-access?
[17:40:28] <elmo40> close... high availability ;)
[17:44:28] <lepton> Hey ladies... I'm a linux user and I'm highly available ;)
[17:50:05] <elmo40> lol
[17:50:22] <elmo40> /ignore lepton
[17:52:14] <L84Supper> http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/tls/1866221149.html anyone ever have or use a Gorton?
[17:54:25] <IchGuckLive> L84Supper: nice mashine simular ones have emc movements look cnczone
[17:54:55] <L84Supper> ooh yeah, I forgot about the for sale board
[17:55:37] <L84Supper> some of the machines I'm finding cost more to move than they are worth
[17:55:50] <IchGuckLive> these are very "heavy" and old mashines also cheep
[17:56:08] <cradek> Jymmm: http://lincoln.craigslist.org/tls/1871185545.html
[17:56:14] <IchGuckLive> L84Supper: Agree B)
[17:56:45] <IchGuckLive> bay a mashine for 200Dollars and 4 Motors for 250eatch !
[17:56:59] <skunkworks> cradek: ummmm
[17:57:45] <IchGuckLive> cradek: this looks like a coffeemill
[18:02:44] <morficmobile> * morficmobile wonders if having choices is bad...do i want the BLDC motor as spindle motor or one of the 3 induction motors? all three have specs that suit based on torque/power
[18:05:22] <mozmck_work> don't worry, if the government keeps on like it's going you won't have to worry about choices much longer ;)
[18:05:45] <skunkworks> if you are going to ever do positioning of the spindle - I would go with the bldc
[18:10:48] <morficmobile> skunkworks: both can hold position if given a 0 speed reference and both would have full torque for that at 0 rpm
[18:11:04] <skunkworks> ok :)
[18:12:19] <bricofoy> so if they are exactly equivalent, where's the choice ?
[18:14:14] <morficmobile> question is which is better choice for spindle?
[18:14:19] <morficmobile> are they same?
[18:15:28] <SWPadnos> I'd say that the heavier one (or the one with the highest rotor inertia) is the best for a spindle, but of course that's the worst for a positioning/contouring application
[18:16:37] <morficmobile> maintaining rotation vs maintaining/stopping at position?
[18:17:39] <PCW> Induction motors will have much worse dynamic performance but that may not matter for a spindle
[18:17:41] <SWPadnos> harder to accelerate, which also means that it's harder for a varying cutting load to decelerate it ...
[18:18:46] <skunkworks> bldc are just cooler..
[18:18:56] <PCW> and smaller
[18:20:37] <morficmobile> i see 85% rotating, 15% positioning if not 95/5
[18:20:58] <morficmobile> and we do castings, so varying cutting forces is common
[18:21:21] <SWPadnos> would positioning be only "indexing", or would you want to do contours, like cams?
[18:22:03] <morficmobile> right now, only for probing 4-5 spots around OD/ID
[18:22:20] <morficmobile> off 2deg? who cares
[18:29:08] <morficmobile> SWPadnos: only thing for me to consider: boss kind of under his breath went "then we could use live tooling later too"
[18:32:08] <probotix> so, no one has any ideas on the 10.04 installation script issue?
[18:33:11] <probotix> i think I may need to add the emc2 repository, but I cannot find it documented anywhere
[18:33:25] <morficmobile> SWPadnos: but dealing with Siemens is great, both phone/email went great.......if we forget about Lou not doing anything at first, but since the survey guy asked how it went, things went smooth :>
[18:33:42] <SWPadnos> heh
[18:34:09] <SWPadnos> probotix, was this a clean install of 10.04 or an upgrade from a machine that already had EMC2 installed?
[18:34:39] <SWPadnos> oh, upgrade from 6.06, that's not going to be easy
[18:34:50] <probotix> clean install
[18:34:58] <probotix> whole new machine
[18:35:50] <SWPadnos> ok, and what happened with the installation script? it should have added the 10.04 repository to your source list, unless you already had an emc2 repository listed
[18:37:16] <probotix> Reading package lists... Done
[18:37:17] <probotix> Reading package lists... Done
[18:37:17] <probotix> Building dependency tree
[18:37:17] <probotix> Reading state information... Done
[18:37:17] <probotix> E: Couldn't find package emc2
[18:37:49] <skunkworks> you are online?
[18:39:15] <morficmobile> the sudo cat from mailing list from sound of it
[18:39:19] <morficmobile> SWPadnos: ^
[18:40:53] <probotix> sudo seems to have fixed it - duh
[18:41:51] <cradek> whoever wants to fix it needs to be aware that "sudo cat > file" doesn't work
[18:42:37] <probotix> i hate ubuntus user security mechanism - can't do much of anything without sudo
[18:44:00] <probotix> hey, after i make sure the packages work, i'll be compiling from source
[18:44:51] <mozmck_work> probotix: you can create a root user and then use su
[18:45:10] <mozmck_work> you'll have to google making a root user in ubuntu
[18:45:10] <cradek> there's a root, you just have to set its password if you want to use it.
[18:46:08] <mozmck_work> ah, that's it. I've done it once. I got used to sudo, but I still miss root sometimes...
[18:46:09] <probotix> i had to modify it to increase the max pins for M65 control
[18:46:58] <SWPadnos> if you want a root shell, just use "sudo bash"
[18:47:13] <probotix> its been a few years and i can't remember what the max pins was
[18:47:23] <SWPadnos> gksudo gnome-terminal probably works too
[18:47:39] <micges> gksu
[18:48:01] <micges> sorry
[18:48:08] <SWPadnos> yeah, and su is likely an option as well :)
[18:48:35] <micges> hello all
[18:48:40] <micges> probotix: how many m65 pins do you want?
[18:49:19] <probotix> pick n place needs about 48 (or more if I install more reels)
[18:50:07] <morficmobile> sudo su - <-- and stay there :)
[18:52:31] <micges> probotix: emc handle up to 64 m64/m65 pins
[18:54:40] <micges> you can specifiy amount in hal file in motion loading line 'loadrt [EMCMOT]EMCMOT .....' by parameter num_dio=nr
[18:55:12] <micges> example: loadrt [EMCMOT]EMCMOT servo_period_nsec=[EMCMOT]SERVO_PERIOD num_dio=48
[18:56:21] <probotix> sweet!
[18:56:35] <probotix> i remember it used to mayeb 8 was the max
[18:57:22] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: Got it =)
[18:57:26] <micges> yes, long time ago
[18:59:26] <Jymmm> cradek: That's a lathe?
[19:01:07] <cradek> probably wouldn't be a very good one
[19:01:34] <Jymmm> Looks like a shoe polisher
[19:04:53] <archivist> email seller for an update
[19:05:58] <cradek> I think it's just a generic buffer
[19:07:03] <Jymmm> Heck, my grinder now buffer looks better than that thing!
[19:08:14] <Jymmm> I think someone is selling something and they just don't know what it is. It looks more like a jewelers buffer to me
[19:08:19] <probotix> hey - thanks for your help guys!
[20:15:47] <ichudov_> I have a question with appx. 10 lines from my ppmc.ini file. Can I ask it and paste several lines?
[20:15:55] <ichudov_> never mind I will put it on my website
[20:16:31] <skunkworks> pastebin.ca is fast and easy also.
[20:16:43] <cradek> seb: made me think of you: http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/07/clever_overhead_garage_storage_hack.html
[20:17:56] <ichudov_> I wrote a little code to say: if manual FLOOD button (maintained) is set, and spindle is running, turn flood on: http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/emc/floodbutton.txt Does this make sense to you?
[20:18:39] <seb> cradek: heh, i saw that too! i haven't been to the alpha rubicon site in years, it was fun to see it pop up again
[20:19:35] <cradek> seb: it's a great idea but that 2' between my head and the ceiling is the only thing that keeps my shop from feeling like an underground bomb shelter cave thing
[20:19:51] <seb> your shop's awesome!
[20:19:53] <micges> ichudov_: on line 'net ManualFloodIn2 and2.0.in0 <= motion.spindle-on' you must change in0 to in1 to work
[20:20:07] <seb> maybe you could bump up the rest of the ceiling like above jr ;-)
[20:20:08] <ichudov_> yep I already realized that I goofed, thanks
[20:20:08] <cradek> ichudov_: you are getting the right idea - excellent
[20:20:28] <ichudov_> OK, this will be my first button that I hook up
[20:20:38] <ichudov_> I already hooked up ESTOP of course
[20:21:02] <cradek> seb: if I had it to do again, I might try to make the ceiling higher - it's all wasted space above there
[20:21:27] <cradek> although adding useless volume makes heating and cooling both harder, I guess
[20:22:15] <ichudov_> no volume is useless
[20:22:25] <ichudov_> thanks anyway guys
[20:22:29] <cradek> ichudov_: next step is or ManualFloodEnabled with iocontrol.0.coolant.flood and send that to ppmc.0.dout.03.out?
[20:23:26] <ichudov_> I am not sure what is your question
[20:23:35] <ichudov_> I have a statement linksp FloodOn => iocontrol.0.coolant-flood
[20:23:53] <ichudov_> I thought that ManualFloodEnabled turns on FloodOn?
[20:23:57] <cradek> oh I see - that is not quite right
[20:24:02] <cradek> you cannot hook two signals together
[20:24:23] <ichudov_> Should I say: net FloodOn <= and2.0.out
[20:24:24] <ichudov_> ?
[20:24:25] <cradek> the last line FloodOn is incorrect
[20:25:09] <cradek> if you want ppmc.0.dout.03.out (actual coolant pump) to be the OR of emc's request and ManualFloodEnabled, you must use an or2 component
[20:25:40] <ichudov_> OK, I think that a lightbulb is lighting in my head... but slowly
[20:26:09] <cradek> signals are like traces on a circuit board. they hook one output pin to many input pins
[20:26:11] <ichudov_> I thought I had many ways of setting FloodOn (manual and G code/GUI)
[20:26:35] <cradek> you cannot have two output pins on the same signal, and you can't hook two signals together
[20:26:51] <ichudov_> I see
[20:26:55] <cradek> you are assuming two output pins on the same signal will give you like logic OR, but this is not the case - it is an error
[20:27:20] <ichudov_> So I need to add an or component, right: if( ManualFloodEnabled OR iocontrol.0.coolant-flood ) THEN ppmc.0.dout.03.out
[20:27:32] <cradek> exactly!
[20:27:41] <ichudov_> ok lemme type somethin furiously
[20:30:14] <ichudov_> How about now? http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/emc/floodbutton.txt
[20:32:00] <cradek> you are very close
[20:32:14] <cradek> IgorFloodButton is a signal, but so is ManualFloodIn1, so I think this is an error
[20:32:54] <cradek> first argument to "net" is a signal name, all other arguments are pin names
[20:33:36] <cradek> same problem with ManualFloodEnabled and AllFloodIn
[20:33:39] <Fox_M|afk> Fox_M|afk is now known as Fox_Muldr
[20:33:44] <cradek> you can combine these into one net statement
[20:34:07] <cradek> like net ManualFloodEnabled or2.0.in0 <= and2.0.out
[20:37:12] <ichudov_> cradek: I was hoping to give them descriptive names and then connect names, so to speak
[20:37:14] <alex_joni> heh: http://www.reghardware.com/2010/07/30/review_camera_instant_print_polaroid_300/
[20:37:23] <alex_joni> cradek: so much for digital :)
[20:38:16] <cradek> ichudov_: it's a good idea for the nets to have good descriptive names - in this case ManualFloodEnabled is the signal traveling out from the AND and into the OR and that makes good intuitive sense
[20:38:35] <cradek> you can't have the signal change names midway, or have two names for it
[20:38:36] <ichudov_> I think I got it, let me rework
[20:40:00] <skunkworks> alex_joni: does that have a little inkjet printer in it? or is it actually film?
[20:40:58] <alex_joni> I would think printer
[20:41:34] <alex_joni> cradek: I think you can (change the signal name midway) using alias
[20:41:43] <cradek> shhh
[20:42:12] <skunkworks> heh
[20:42:15] <alex_joni> it's surely a bad idea ;)
[20:42:39] <cradek> you've still got to understand the basic flow
[20:43:03] <alex_joni> right, and read the HAL docs a couple times till you do
[20:43:04] <ichudov_> I gotta run, will be back in 20 min
[20:43:17] <cradek> http://www.amazon.com/Polaroid-PIF-300-Instant-Film-Cameras/dp/B003B28KBK/
[20:44:14] <skunkworks> huh - acutal film
[20:44:22] <skunkworks> actual
[20:44:23] <alex_joni> it's analog.. right
[20:44:53] <alex_joni> 1$/pic is a bit pricey
[20:45:01] <cradek> I find it somewhat amazing they are trying this
[20:45:29] <cradek> yeah but you don't have to wait for it to be developed!!
[20:46:23] <alex_joni> and you see instantly how crappy it turned out
[20:46:38] <skunkworks> * skunkworks hugs his digital camera
[20:47:41] <alex_joni> skunkworks: at least there you see immediately how crappy it looks :P
[20:50:39] <skunkworks> I can see that on my digital camera also.... :) probably pretty close to the same size - (business card)
[21:01:12] <ichudov_> I have redone a bit my flood button config and added line numbers to the cite: http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/emc/floodbutton.txt
[21:09:37] <ichudov_> test
[21:14:16] <ichudov_> I do not think that my irc client is working
[21:14:19] <ichudov_> later
[21:22:06] <alex_joni> ichudov: it is working
[21:22:18] <alex_joni> good night all
[21:22:40] <skunkworks> night alex
[22:25:26] <madsci44> wow milling aluminum is such a ... holiday :)
[22:28:39] <JT-Hardinge> I like 7075 best
[22:29:07] <madsci44> i have never tried 70xx i would ike to
[22:29:31] <JT-Hardinge> much less gummy than 60xx
[22:30:57] <madsci44> when I first did 60xx i had that problem, running dry - when I started with water soluble coolant tho it quickly became a breeze, I figured it was mostly chip welding/built up edge that was causing my issues
[22:32:27] <JT-Hardinge> taking too light of a cut at a rpm that is too high will also cause heat build up and chip welding
[22:32:41] <madsci44> yeah
[22:32:59] <madsci44> do you do 7075 dry or with fluid?
[22:33:18] <JT-Hardinge> I have to cut dry on my mill but on my lathe I take a shower when I open the door at the wrong time
[22:33:22] <JT-Hardinge> both
[22:33:30] <JT-Hardinge> and 6061 both ways
[22:36:18] <ds2> brush on coolant can help
[22:36:35] <ds2> just gets tedious if you are doing a 48hour surfacing job ;)
[22:36:40] <madsci44> Yeah on the lathe thats easier
[22:37:06] <madsci44> I have just a tiny stream from the coolant gimmick I made - I can clip it to the mill or lathe
[22:37:24] <ds2> I use a basting syringe to spray coolant onto acrylic on the mill...really helps
[22:37:48] <madsci44> its not mist but close - i have found its enough for every job i've done so far - and is easy to control the runoff from flooding all over the place
[22:38:07] <ds2> yep or use enough that the chips soak it up
[22:38:14] <theorb> theorb is now known as theorbtwo
[22:38:16] <madsci44> exactly
[22:46:07] <Fox_Muldr> Fox_Muldr is now known as Fox_M|afk