#emc | Logs for 2010-07-09

[00:03:52] <theorb> theorb is now known as theorbtwo
[02:02:28] <Valen> what do you guys think of getting a few of these for a manual tool changer? http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ER32-MT3-M12-COLLET-CHUCK-KEY-CNC-MILLING-LATHE-A75-/150464983915?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item230869736b#ht_4021wt_1136
[02:05:20] <morfic> i like ER32, but never used it on a mt3 should be good
[02:06:46] <Jymmm> Valen: you know you want this http://hackadaycom.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/cnc.jpg
[02:07:19] <Jymmm> Valen: duct tape cnc, no need for your fancy shmancy collets
[02:07:45] <Valen> might have a bit ofrunout
[02:07:58] <Jymmm> add more duct tape
[02:08:01] <Valen> I think we already have one, it seems to work ok
[02:41:51] <cradek> seems kind of big for MT3. can you get along with a smaller ER?
[02:47:25] <Valen> possibly, I dunno what we already have though
[02:47:32] <Valen> whats the downside to it being big?
[02:47:48] <Valen> (running the mill is more dads thing, I do the computer side of things)
[02:48:05] <Valen> heh just replied to your email about PID tuning btw ;-> (i'm jake)
[02:48:39] <cradek> bigger collets cost more, more Z overhang
[02:49:07] <cradek> Valen: I think most people who responded either didn't read your problem description or didn't understand it
[02:49:20] <cradek> of course on the other hand it could be that I didn't understand it
[02:50:56] <cradek> I think the real win of MT-to-ER is you wouldn't have to mess with the MT drawbar and locking taper
[02:51:11] <cradek> just use two wrenches while the adapter is in the machine to loosen the collet and change the tool
[02:51:37] <cradek> not repeatable tool lengths that way, but neither is MT very repeatable I bet
[02:53:09] <Valen> actually we are planning on getting a few of these and swap the whole thing over
[02:53:19] <Valen> cos its easier than changing the tool lol
[02:54:09] <cradek> just read your response - ouch, not sure how to say it - if you don't know enough hal to do what I said, you might not want to deal with trying such a complex experimental setup. I don't really want to handhold you through it - it seems like it would be a real pain to do remotely.
[02:54:37] <Valen> I've been playing with the shallow end of the pool for a while
[02:55:02] <cradek> dive in!
[02:55:03] <Valen> I figure HAL isn't impossible to learn lol
[02:55:15] <Valen> would be handy to have a "working model" though
[02:55:15] <cradek> clearly it's not
[02:55:39] <cradek> that's just the same as you wish someone else would do the work for you first
[02:55:50] <cradek> you currently have a working setup - go from that
[02:56:16] <Valen> no problem giving you full access to the machine if you feel like playing
[02:56:37] <Valen> its a fairly large change though from what I understand
[02:56:40] <cradek> it's fairly impossible without being at the machine
[02:56:47] <Valen> spose
[02:57:13] <Valen> If there was an example of this double PID thing that could be adapted or worked from it'd be handy
[02:57:41] <cradek> well I didn't suggest double pid (except as plan-C afterthought)
[02:57:59] <cradek> did you understand what I wrote? maybe I can help if not.
[02:58:12] <Valen> i'm re reading it a sentance at a time
[02:59:17] <Valen> so currently EMC is generating its own velocity number from the difference in encoder positions rather than using mesa's velocity?
[03:00:13] <Valen> ok first up, whats the advantage of a velocity mode control vs torque mode vs "power" which is what I presume the mesa is nativley putting out?
[03:01:12] <cradek> velocity mode hides all nonlinearity in the system from the pid
[03:01:41] <cradek> it also hides disturbances like cutting force
[03:01:47] <cradek> all that happens in the amp
[03:01:51] <Valen> is that a good thing?
[03:02:19] <Valen> I spose PID doesn't handle non linear stuff very well
[03:02:21] <cradek> well it gives better control
[03:02:43] <Valen> what do you mean by better though?
[03:03:19] <cradek> good question. this is all handwavey and I am not a control system expert
[03:03:34] <Valen> hey I don't even play one on TV so your one up on me
[03:04:02] <cradek> I think I have a gut feel for why your FF1 doesn't work and it's because the velocity you get at the axis is not even remotely proportional to the pwm value you give the H bridge
[03:04:09] <Valen> I'd love to just let a neural net run the damn thing lol, let it learn the mill for an hour or 2 ;->
[03:04:32] <Valen> no, the PWM out would vary greatly from velocity due to any number of reasons
[03:05:33] <cradek> but I think maybe you can get real velocity fairly proportional to pid output if you use pid output minus actual velocity to drive the pwm
[03:06:31] <cradek> imagine the axis is moving happily along and you push on it to slow it down. feedback velocity goes down, command-feedback goes up, therefore pwm goes up, pid doesn't have to do all the work
[03:06:50] <Valen> how do you controll the PWM though?
[03:07:01] <cradek> that's what my message is about
[03:07:11] <Valen> thats what I'm trying to get
[03:07:19] <cradek> use a sum2 block as a differential amplifier
[03:07:59] <cradek> er sum2 component it's called (block is old hal terminology)
[03:07:59] <Valen> so drive the PWM as the difference between commanded and actual velocity?
[03:08:07] <cradek> yes exactly
[03:08:13] <cradek> commanded velocity is your pid output
[03:08:26] <cradek> this is (roughly) how velocity mode servo amps work
[03:09:15] <Valen> It feels like the dual PID would give better control over it?, what you describe sounds like a PID with just the P?
[03:09:22] <Valen> PID + P
[03:09:43] <cradek> yes possibly
[03:10:20] <Valen> it feels like PID isn't well suited to things with nonlinear responses
[03:10:40] <cradek> I think that's true
[03:10:52] <cradek> P gain sure isn't, and FF1 isn't
[03:11:06] <Valen> if FF1 had an exponent I could see it working
[03:11:23] <Valen> I spose thats what your recreating somewhat with the dual PID
[03:11:24] <cradek> I gain can cover up a lot of nonlinearity
[03:11:34] <Valen> yeah, it feels all a bit late though
[03:11:39] <cradek> right
[03:11:51] <cradek> I think you're getting a feel for it. now go experiment!
[03:12:01] <Valen> I've been playing with it for ages lol
[03:12:17] <Valen> we've made a number of things i'm just trying to "tweak it out"
[03:12:22] <pcw_home> I dont see that FF1 should be anything but linear since it just compensates for BEMF
[03:12:47] <Valen> pcw_home: what about friction force that varies with velocity?
[03:12:49] <cradek> hi pcw
[03:12:59] <pcw_home> Hi cradek
[03:13:15] <cradek> pcw_home: am I talking out my ass? :-)
[03:13:28] <pcw_home> well if its liear as well it just a little more FF1
[03:13:40] <pcw_home> (linear)
[03:13:58] <Valen> the problem I'm having is i can tune the mill during say a G1 F100 to sit at around 0 error
[03:14:07] <pcw_home> May we all are but ive done 100s of tunings with our PWM amps
[03:14:22] <Valen> so i'll be hovering around +.01 when +ve and -.01 when -ve
[03:14:37] <Valen> then i'll push it to hover around 0.000 with ff1
[03:14:59] <Valen> but if I then change to say a G1 F200 i get an offset again
[03:15:06] <Valen> which gets bigger at F300
[03:15:16] <cradek> proportionally bigger?
[03:15:45] <Valen> I dont recall if it was proportional but i *think* it was
[03:16:07] <pcw_home> what do you have for an I term
[03:16:12] <pcw_home> ?
[03:16:19] <Valen> 0
[03:16:36] <Valen> I can "fix" it but then I have issues with overrun and delays with starting
[03:17:15] <cradek> yeah you'll get overshoot with I -- but maybe you can fix it with D
[03:17:21] <cradek> they all add up and swirl together
[03:17:29] <Valen> much more D makes it very noisy
[03:17:48] <Valen> and overshoot is bad with the linear scale system
[03:18:07] <pcw_home> noisy when sitting?
[03:18:13] <Valen> in running
[03:18:34] <Valen> you can hear it overshoot and correcting at the servo rate and the ferror trace gets noiser
[03:18:58] <Valen> we have wound the preload up so the backlash is really really small, but you can see the motors getting a little inertia up as they wind through it
[03:19:09] <Valen> once its moving though its ok
[03:19:29] <pcw_home> Better velocity estimation may help the noisiness some
[03:19:44] <Valen> yeah we have a low latency so I'll up the servo rate some
[03:19:54] <cradek> someone should hack our pid to accept that - we've talked about it for years
[03:20:04] <Valen> though I think we are running at 4khz already I think
[03:20:20] <Valen> to handle backlash between motor and encoder?
[03:20:24] <pcw_home> maybe the linear scale backlash is preventing you from setting P and D high enough
[03:20:42] <Valen> it seems to get a pretty textbook oscilation as P goes up
[03:20:43] <pcw_home> (that would explain the inability to use I)
[03:21:13] <Valen> I can use I but it seems that even in the textbook world it causes overshoot?
[03:21:17] <cradek> faster servo cycle gives you more ddt velocity noise, not less
[03:21:38] <Valen> the backlash is on the order of .001-003mm or so, our scales measure .001
[03:23:13] <Valen> our P is ~3, D .01 FF1 .01 at F100 to .02 at F200, FF2 .00015 or so
[03:23:39] <Valen> the motors sound "noisy" at a D of much higher than that and it doesn't seem to help things much
[03:24:11] <pcw_home> You should be able to bump up P if D is higher
[03:24:32] <Valen> It doesn't seem to make much of a difference though
[03:24:49] <Valen> it would reduce the error but wouldn't actually correct it is my understanding?
[03:25:25] <Valen> I have run I up to 50 and see diminishing returns after that, but I've had it up to 200
[03:25:37] <pcw_home> well you reduce the error to the point the I term can fix the rest
[03:27:00] <pcw_home> 3 sounds low for P, what part of a motor turn gives full scale PWM?
[03:27:16] <Valen> I dont understand the question?
[03:27:54] <Valen> it seems if I could multiply some constant with speed as an exponent and add that to the PID it'd work
[03:28:40] <Jymmm> Only in the vacuum of space and time
[03:28:53] <pcw_home> if you disconnect the amp from the motor how far do you have to turn the motor shaft to get full PWM?
[03:28:57] <Valen> how far do we have to move the motor to get the PID to go full sclae
[03:29:04] <Valen> i dont know the answer to that
[03:30:06] <Valen> P doing all the work means its just going to be error * 3 or so isnt it?
[03:30:21] <cradek> yes
[03:30:28] <Valen> when error gets to 1 that would be full scale?
[03:30:37] <cradek> depends on how your pwmgen is scaled
[03:30:57] <Valen> max output is set to .5 I think
[03:31:20] <Valen> is that the right knob?
[03:31:25] <cradek> what's scale
[03:31:36] <Valen> mm
[03:31:43] <Valen> .001mm per unit
[03:32:06] <cradek> sorry I mean hm2_xxxx.0.pwmgen.xx.scale
[03:32:24] <Valen> I dont know it'll be whatever the default is
[03:32:39] <Valen> hm2servo sample
[03:32:43] <cradek> probably 1
[03:32:58] <Valen> I don't have access to the machine running it atm
[03:33:08] <cradek> there are so many scaling factors it's hard to tell how you're set up
[03:33:30] <cradek> surely you don't have max duty cycle .5?
[03:35:42] <Valen> I doubt it
[03:36:02] <Valen> I did change max output to 1 and it made no difference I could see
[03:36:43] <pcw_home> how did you set P?
[03:36:53] <Valen> winding it up till it oscilated
[03:36:57] <Valen> backing it off a little
[03:37:00] <Valen> adding some D
[03:37:17] <Valen> on our Z drive P is .8 or so
[03:37:26] <Valen> but Z is rather crappy
[03:38:26] <Valen> whats behind your question about movement pcw_home?
[03:42:54] <pcw_home> Did you try adding more P after the D was added (P will oscillate at very low values without D)
[03:48:10] <Valen> I will give it a go
[03:48:14] <Valen> brb mothers over
[03:53:30] <pcw_home> I wonder if theres enough spring/hysteresis between the motor and the linear scale to make tuning difficult
[04:29:08] <Valen> I cant see adding more P helping much
[04:29:21] <Valen> other than the offset its pretty nice really
[04:30:25] <Valen> we can see the backlash pretty clearly, Its only really an issue when we change direction
[04:31:22] <Valen> I'll try getting some screen shots
[04:31:33] <Valen> (in the next few days)
[05:23:33] <pcw_home> If you double P you will roughly half your errors
[05:24:06] <Valen> thats a *lot* of P though
[05:24:25] <Valen> it oscillates when P goes up by ~.5 or so
[05:25:09] <Valen> unless you go with *lots* of D but then its not "smooth"
[06:05:45] <WalterN> hmm
[06:05:54] <WalterN> anybody know about electropolishing?
[07:38:50] <archivist> WalterN, you need the right mix of chemicals for your material, so you need to find docs from a chemical supplier to match the material
[07:39:15] <WalterN> archivist, 316 stainless?
[07:40:29] <archivist> http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&source=hp&q=electropolishing+stainless+steel&aq=0&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=electropolishing+&gs_rfai=&fp=63b42caf01504688
[07:41:56] <WalterN> archivist, http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=131 is low voltage typically used?
[07:42:43] <WalterN> or does total watts matter the most?
[07:42:50] <archivist> did you read the page :)
[07:43:26] <WalterN> bleh, not really :P
[07:43:30] <archivist> never mind the volts feel the amps
[07:43:45] <WalterN> what?
[07:43:56] <archivist> read that page you linked
[07:45:06] <WalterN> hmm
[07:45:10] <WalterN> "Electrolytes used are usually mixtures of phosphoric and sulphuric acids."
[07:45:25] <WalterN> would just sulfuric acid work?
[07:45:55] <WalterN> its the easiest to get...
[07:47:08] <archivist> you probably need a mix depends
[07:47:59] <WalterN> how about nitric acid?
[07:48:22] <WalterN> nitric+phosphoric acid
[07:48:45] <WalterN> maybe throw in some sulfuric too
[07:48:59] <WalterN> lol
[07:49:41] <WalterN> I ask because I have a gallon of parkerizing stuff coming, evidently all that is is nitric and phosphoric acid
[07:49:58] <WalterN> well
[07:50:03] <WalterN> and some salt..
[07:50:05] <WalterN> hmm
[07:50:12] <WalterN> interesting
[07:50:25] <WalterN> nvm, probably not a good idea
[07:50:34] <WalterN> with that stuff anyway
[08:00:10] <WalterN> archivist, so does the current and volt matter more than just measuring in watts?
[08:00:38] <archivist> yes its amps per area
[08:00:45] <WalterN> like, could I do 170volts and whatever amps?
[08:00:50] <WalterN> hmm
[08:01:28] <archivist> no its around 30 amps per 10 cm square
[08:01:33] <WalterN> so its the amps that matter the most, not the volts
[08:01:50] <WalterN> and whatever the wattage turns out to be
[08:02:11] <WalterN> 3amps per square cm?
[08:02:54] <archivist> with the right chemicals and you achieve the voltage mentioned you should be running at the correct amperage
[08:03:58] <WalterN> I say 170 because thats just 120volts turned into DC current, which would be about 170v
[08:04:59] <archivist> you vary the voltage to achieve the current density
[08:05:33] <WalterN> 0.o
[08:05:47] <WalterN> massive tansformer needed
[08:06:15] <archivist> yes
[08:06:34] <WalterN> I was kinda hoping to skip such a transformer
[08:07:01] <WalterN> or series of tansformers
[08:09:56] <WalterN> is there a good place to get a massive transformer like that?
[08:11:43] <WalterN> normal transformers wont cut it
[08:11:44] <WalterN> lol
[08:11:52] <WalterN> https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=11-2840&catname=electric
[08:11:56] <WalterN> 4 amps
[08:21:02] <archivist> you get them wound for you
[08:22:19] <WalterN> theres got to be off the shelf stuff though...
[08:22:37] <WalterN> CNC machines have big arse transformers in them..
[08:22:40] <archivist> I doubt it
[08:24:48] <WalterN> archivist, well, thanks.. got some good info anyway
[08:24:53] <WalterN> bed time
[08:33:25] <bricofoy> bricofoy is now known as bricografcetmanf
[08:34:45] <bricografcetmanf> * bricografcetmanf finnaly got the grafcet working !
[08:34:57] <bricografcetmanf> bricografcetmanf is now known as bricografcetman
[08:36:17] <bricografcetman> how can I contribute to improve the doc on grafcet ?
[08:40:28] <bricografcetman> It miss just one or two little things to make it understandable and usable, and if Chris Morley had not pointed out his grafcet sample, I woudl have given up the thing
[08:41:47] <bricografcetman> bricografcetman is now known as bricofoy
[13:34:58] <bricofoy> made a coloring rule for gedit, for HAL files
[13:35:06] <bricofoy> looks like this : http://imagebin.ca/view/Hnbt3c7.html
[13:35:45] <bricofoy> if someone is interested, the file is here : http://filebin.ca/wjhscv/hal.lang
[13:36:06] <bricofoy> this file must be located in /usr/share/gtksourceview-2.0/language-specs/hal.lang, then restart gedit
[13:37:34] <bricofoy> it is based upon an esisting coloring rule for another language, so it do not fully work as I expected, but still give some eye-candy to boring hal files :)
[13:40:39] <bricofoy> not perfect, but for me its enough. but feel free to improve it :)
[13:42:25] <bricofoy> planned to do the same for GCode files, but found that the existing "Haskell" rule give interesting results. Again, enough for me :) I think just copying the haskell rule into a gcode.lang new file and changing the magic to reconize gcode file will be enough
[13:47:24] <bricofoy> here is what gcode looks like with "haskell" rule : http://imagebin.ca/view/p5HHQg.html
[14:05:10] <elmo40_> power went out... all from a little rain! very annoying.
[14:05:21] <elmo40_> glad the computer is on a UPS :)
[14:05:38] <elmo40_> router and cable modem, not.
[14:06:48] <elmo40_> elmo40_ is now known as elmo40
[15:05:42] <awallin> only took about 3 hours to find the bug which was causing drop-cutter slowness....
[15:05:45] <awallin> :)
[15:06:04] <awallin> oh, #emc not #cam... :|
[15:54:49] <WalterN> elmo40, my two computers, router, and modem thing are hooked up to my UPS
[16:19:40] <elmo40> actually, my modem is and the main router, but my computer is on the wifi router... i should change that ;)
[16:22:20] <WalterN> oh
[16:22:43] <WalterN> I have gig ethernet router between my two computers
[16:22:53] <WalterN> <3
[16:23:43] <Jymmm> that's a waste
[16:24:26] <WalterN> poppycock
[16:24:43] <Jymmm> why would you wnat a ROUTER instead of a SWITCH
[16:25:22] <WalterN> because it also has dual band wireless for other things that connect to it
[16:25:27] <WalterN> like laptop and cellphone
[16:26:44] <Jymmm> Oh, you're using a consumer router/wifi thingy.
[16:28:09] <WalterN> yeah
[16:28:31] <WalterN> its good enough for the hobby server I have set up too
[16:30:00] <WalterN> at least with dd-wrt installed on it
[17:44:08] <sealive> hi i'am on xbuntu RTC hardy can i get there gedit as a default instad of mousepad ?
[17:44:22] <sealive> EMC is running
[18:39:49] <bricofoy> yeah ! my grafcet works ! (after a full week fighting with the bugs of the editor, and turning around the bugs of the interpreter :)
[19:29:58] <ries_> ries_ is now known as ries
[20:04:16] <ChanServ> [#emc] "This is the #emc channel - talk related to the Enhanced Machine Controller and general machining. Website: http://www.linuxcnc.org/, wiki at http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/"
[20:08:13] <cpresser> is it possible to use emc2-sim in order to check a g-code files machining-time in advance?
[20:08:47] <John_f_> I think so
[20:08:53] <alex_joni> depends how complicated the g-code is
[20:09:04] <alex_joni> does it rely on inputs from the outside, tool-changes, etc
[20:09:15] <alex_joni> probing
[20:09:22] <alex_joni> loops based on measured stuff
[20:09:23] <alex_joni> etc
[20:09:29] <cpresser> no, the only thing making it difficult to estimat without a simulation is the acceleration
[20:09:34] <cradek> if you set up your accel and velocity to match your real machine, the simulation will be really close
[20:09:50] <cpresser> thats wahat i am looking for, cradek
[20:09:52] <alex_joni> if it's straightforward, you can run in sim and have it close
[20:10:26] <cpresser> is there a speedup-mode for the simulation?
[20:10:52] <cradek> you can set your accel, vel, and feed override as high as you want
[20:11:34] <cpresser> so I will give it a try...
[20:12:47] <SWPadnos> there is no setting in sim that can speed things up past the accel and vel limits
[20:13:24] <SWPadnos> so you can't "accurately" simulate the amount of time a file would take to machine and also have a high speed simulation using the same config
[20:13:50] <cradek> no, those are contrary goals
[20:14:03] <SWPadnos> note also that the AXIS time estimate doesn't take accel into account
[20:14:26] <cpresser> yes, i already figured that :(
[20:14:36] <cpresser> thats the reason why i am going to try the simulation
[20:18:54] <SWPadnos> I wonder if it takes max velocity into account
[20:19:17] <cradek> doubt it
[20:19:22] <SWPadnos> I believe it just uses the programmed feed rate for each move, even if it's beyond the machine's capabilities
[21:10:06] <mikegg> what does "Invalid configuration of axes is preventing EMC from starting" mean?
[21:10:25] <mikegg> EMC v2.3.5 runs fine, but upgrading to 2.4.2 I get that error
[21:10:45] <cradek> it means there's a different error higher up, and you didn't read the UPDATING wiki page
[21:10:59] <mikegg> ah, thank you.
[21:11:00] <cradek> there's an ini file change required for 2.3->2.4 upgrade
[21:11:32] <SWPadnos> is that information also in a README that gets installed with the package?
[21:11:40] <SWPadnos> (or some other file)
[21:12:02] <cradek> I don't know
[21:12:19] <SWPadnos> I think it should be, I guess :)
[21:15:11] <cradek> I can sympathize with that opinion, but I also know nobody would read it there
[21:15:39] <cradek> the instructions are in the release announcement emails and the first link on the main page of the wiki...
[21:15:50] <SWPadnos> that's truw
[21:15:52] <SWPadnos> e
[21:16:08] <cradek> I guess when people ask the same question over and over, it means we should have done something differently
[21:16:21] <cradek> well, or they should have (read the release notes for instance)
[21:16:23] <SWPadnos> that's probably why I thought of it :)
[21:16:24] <cradek> I dunno
[21:16:25] <SWPadnos> heh
[21:16:55] <SWPadnos> I wonder if there is any way to tell if a package is being installed vs upgraded
[21:17:09] <SWPadnos> (at install time, so that some postinst triggers can be changed or something)
[21:20:59] <SWPadnos> make the run script check the VERSION in the ini file, and less README if it doesn't match :)
[21:21:24] <seb_kuzminsky> SWPadnos: there is - when dpkg installs a package, it runs the debian "maintainer scripts" such that they can tell if they're being upgraded, and if so from what version to what version
[21:21:28] <SWPadnos> (or gedit README, since it may be run from an icon)
[21:21:36] <SWPadnos> ok, cool
[21:22:15] <SWPadnos> I don't know if that actually helps though, since an update/upgrade could be part of a large set of packages, and we wouldn't want to hold up the entire works to display a text file
[21:22:25] <seb_kuzminsky> lots of packages do that
[21:22:55] <seb_kuzminsky> maybe it's ok if we do too, at least when doing upgrades that require users to change their config files
[21:24:08] <SWPadnos> another option is to stick an extra document in the CNC menu if it's an upgrade
[21:35:18] <mikegg> anyone else get a "PARPORT: linux parport parport0 does not support mode 4." after upgrading?
[21:42:23] <cradek> what version?
[21:42:40] <cradek> what parport-using hal driver?
[21:49:27] <mikegg> EMC v2.4.2 Hm2 v0.15, 7i43 v0.3
[21:50:07] <mikegg> looks like it still works ok.... I double checked in the bios. only one PP, and it's set to EPP
[21:51:40] <mikegg> dmesg -> http://pastebin.com/v36qP1Au
[22:22:30] <seb_kuzminsky> concrete 3d printer: http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/07/cement_printer_makes_large_3d_sculp.html
[22:43:12] <MattyMatt> eeh. lookit the spindle on that http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SCM-Routron-CNC-Router-921-/250658924168
[22:43:23] <andypugh> You know, I haven't seen any total noobs turn up here for a while. Is that because I have been to busy actually making stuff, or is there a bit of a drought?
[22:43:33] <MattyMatt> "discretionary reserve of 500 squids"
[22:45:36] <andypugh> Yiou buying it?
[22:45:41] <MattyMatt> what about all the ones I've been sending from #reprap? :)
[22:46:34] <andypugh> Perhaps they go to bed early :-)
[22:46:38] <MattyMatt> nope not buying anything atm. I can't even afford new brushes for mine
[22:47:13] <MattyMatt> I'm hoping they last a few more days until these mendels are made
[22:47:44] <MattyMatt> I wish I was creditworthy
[22:47:46] <andypugh> I managed to break the screw-on-nose screw off of my Dremel-a-like.
[22:47:49] <PCW> Hi Andy, we will get you your 8I20s but we're still mucking about with the host side firmware
[22:47:57] <MattyMatt> an overdraft facility would be reet gurt right now
[22:48:22] <andypugh> Pretend you live in Botswana and apply to Kiva?
[22:48:57] <andypugh> PCW: I need to get that 5i20 order placed too.
[22:50:43] <PCW> The host side interface will fit in a 5I20 (just, 6 axis sserial + 6 encoders = 99% full)
[22:50:52] <andypugh> Looking elsewhere on the interwebs that Routron is metal. The one in the eBay ad looks to be wood.
[22:51:23] <andypugh> Is the 400kgate 7i39 actually more roomy then?
[22:53:47] <MattyMatt> seb_kuzminsky: nice machine, but they are using it for sculptures of poop :)
[22:54:05] <PCW> Yes, 5I20 is 200K "xilinx gates"
[22:54:51] <andypugh> I am considering building an Atom system with more RAM than HD.
[22:55:18] <andypugh> (Well, the same amount, 4GB SSD HD and 4GB or ram)
[22:56:06] <MattyMatt> I'd still like to see a raid of SD done
[22:56:45] <andypugh> Like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96dWOEa4Djs
[22:58:28] <MattyMatt> not quite :) I was thinking 5 or 10 cheap SD cards to replace one SSD
[22:59:56] <MattyMatt> those 32GB ones are pretty cheap now. the ones with fast read but slower write, just for booting
[23:00:12] <MattyMatt> $79 aka 100 quid + vat
[23:00:53] <MattyMatt> 32GB ssd, not sd
[23:02:34] <andypugh> I am using an 8GB DOM for the Miller controller.
[23:02:38] <MattyMatt> I spent an evening trying to work out if I could get a decent IDE ssd or hdd for my old thinkpad, but in the end just went to Wilko's and bought a usb stick. job done
[23:02:45] <andypugh> Mainly for the simple mounting.
[23:06:02] <andypugh> How to get an OS + EMC onto a machine with no CD-rom drive, I wonder?
[23:08:17] <MattyMatt> usb cd rom?
[23:08:24] <atmega> pxe boot?
[23:10:00] <MattyMatt> coreboot? I have an eprom programmer now, but haven't used it for anything yet
[23:10:26] <andypugh> PXE is a possibility.
[23:11:11] <andypugh> Secondary problem is that is has no monitor yet. I guess SSH into a machine with no OS is going to be tricksy :-)
[23:11:52] <MattyMatt> atom boards generally have vga don't they?
[23:12:59] <MattyMatt> it's compulsory, as you have to use the intel glue chip
[23:13:08] <MattyMatt> afaik
[23:14:21] <MattyMatt> eeh, glue chip :) it's like the good old days again :)
[23:16:10] <MattyMatt> PCs have finally caught up with spectrums
[23:16:44] <andypugh> Not quite.