#emc | Logs for 2010-07-01

[00:00:00] <DaViruz> parsec? :)
[00:00:12] <Valen> parsec is a somewhat "metric" unit
[00:00:17] <alex_chally> DaViruz, the parsec might be the coolest unit ever
[00:00:22] <salvarane> what can I do find Mister MattyMatt
[00:00:25] <alex_chally> at least the most clever
[00:00:32] <andypugh> Planck length, the only non-arbitrary unit.
[00:00:33] <Valen> he will be around on here sometimes
[00:00:46] <alex_chally> ah
[00:01:19] <DaViruz> i don't mind arbitraryness
[00:01:20] <alex_chally> for those that are not aware, planck length is the smallest divisible unit of distance
[00:01:31] <alex_chally> you actually can not have a length smaller then planck length
[00:01:36] <alex_chally> which still blows my mind
[00:01:39] <Valen> isn't it the maximum distance something can move in a plank time?
[00:01:51] <andypugh> The Megaparsec.barn is about a teasponful. Which considering how very, very, long it is, and how very, very, thin comes as a bit of a surprise.
[00:01:54] <DaViruz> sure you can
[00:03:36] <DaViruz> a plank length on the other hand is a common unit used by pirates
[00:03:40] <DaViruz> arr
[00:03:50] <Valen> yarr
[00:04:49] <andypugh> Avast unit!
[00:05:02] <alex_chally> h4n h4n
[00:05:27] <alex_chally> I actually do all my my machining in rods and furlongs
[00:06:23] <atmega> and time in micro-fortnights?
[00:06:46] <alex_chally> actually I measure time in yattodays
[00:07:06] <andypugh> G7, G8 is too limiting, we want G20.1 for feet, G20.2 for furlongs....
[00:07:08] <alex_chally> sometimes femtoseconds
[00:07:24] <andypugh> (Sorry, the G7 and 8 there were meant to be 20 and 21)
[00:08:44] <alex_chally> so I have been thinking about how to properly lubricate my ballscrews
[00:09:07] <alex_chally> what mechanisim do those one shot oilers use to slow the stroke down so much?
[00:09:42] <alex_chally> I actually have a one shot integral to my saddle
[00:10:08] <alex_chally> maybe I should just automate it
[00:10:30] <alex_chally> and make a new manifold
[00:10:32] <andypugh> According to New Scientist an Aeon == a myriad hectomillenia
[00:11:56] <andypugh> alex_chally: I have always assumed that the slow stroke is down to oil viscosity and small holes
[00:13:33] <morfic> cradek: i would fail, i don't own a tape measure
[00:13:55] <andypugh> I believe I own several. I have certainly bought them.
[00:14:21] <morfic> FL i hope is F????? LATHE, but i can't think of any technical F* around lathe types
[00:14:29] <alex_chally> andypugh, hm
[00:14:34] <mIreland> fanuc
[00:14:38] <mIreland> ?
[00:14:40] <alex_chally> then the other problem is the force required to work the pump
[00:15:13] <alex_chally> which is large
[00:15:26] <alex_chally> so a lever of some sort is going to be necessary
[00:15:38] <morfic> andypugh: +-.0001 is, um, "fun", we already roll the welder behind the lathe when we run pump shafts with .0005 (total) tolerance bearing seats
[00:16:04] <andypugh> On that eBay there is an auction for "Rare Victoria Verical Mill". Now, why would _anyone_ want a "rare" machine tool? I guess the answer is "nobody" as it consistently fails to sell.
[00:16:17] <alex_chally> andypugh, link?
[00:16:20] <alex_chally> and, yeah
[00:16:31] <alex_chally> part of me wishes I had just bought a damn bridgeport :)
[00:16:38] <andypugh> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Rare-Victoria-Turret-Milling-Machine-/200489646514
[00:17:26] <alex_chally> the placement of Y and Z cranks so close to eachother seems kinda... annoying
[00:17:58] <alex_chally> is that riding on rails?
[00:18:05] <andypugh> That does look like a flaw..
[00:18:43] <alex_chally> has anyone done a conversion on a horizonta/vertical as a combo turning/milling center?
[00:19:36] <alex_chally> obviously you could not cut on things in the horizontal spindle using the vertical spindle
[00:19:41] <andypugh> morfic: My first job was finding a way to machine 100um glass fibres into 1um slices, then further reduce them to 10nm with ion beams.
[00:19:43] <morfic> hey, how stable are linear ways (and i intentionally give no further info, since i hope to get a "if you get X size, it's ok" type answer), i only know linear ways for those 16' printers we built, so to hear "let's mill our machine bed and replace the ways with linear ways" leaves me puzzled
[00:20:40] <alex_chally> who said/did that morfic?
[00:20:48] <morfic> andypugh: is that still machining or is it more Pfrimeln ?
[00:21:30] <morfic> alex_chally: i can't say, but pretty much anyone can guess it must have come out of my boss' mouth if they read me talking about our retrofit since April... :>
[00:22:05] <andypugh> alex_chally: Tormach do a little lathe for the milling machine bed, where the lathe tool is fixed to the mill quill.
[00:22:10] <KimK> alex_chally: Most waylube oiling systems have metering orifices (that can plug up with tarry way oil if they sit around for a few months/years) The guy in the following thread that says you can't really clean them, just replace them, is right. http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/cnc-machining/lube-system-orifice-fittings-how-much-pressure-122154/
[00:22:45] <DaViruz> 10nm, i can manage that with a hacksaw and file
[00:24:25] <andypugh> Annoyingly the 8 little metering orifices (50um) in my injector spontaneously unblocked, making the problem car a good car, and ending the investigation. Annoying, because making that car good again was _not_ the point. The point was making sure that customer cars don't go bad.
[00:25:09] <alex_chally> i need to read through my ballscrew's manual to figure out the proper lube it needs
[00:25:15] <andypugh> Linear ways are _not_ stiffer or more accurate than a conventional bed,
[00:25:38] <alex_chally> hopefully it will want way oil so I can just cut a new manifold for the one shot and plumb it into the ballnuts
[00:26:10] <andypugh> And they are unlikely to be straighter without a lot of metrology (bit then _with_ the metrology they can be arbitrarily straight)
[00:27:05] <andypugh> alex_chally: http://www.tormach.com/misc_media/Duality_Intro_low_res.wmv
[00:27:05] <morfic> alex_chally: ours eats waylube
[00:27:14] <alex_chally> i need to find someone a thousand years old to teach me how to scrape ways
[00:27:41] <morfic> alex_chally: they still teach scraping in apprentice ships....
[00:27:52] <andypugh> Sorry, I fail the age test, but I have scraped ways
[00:28:10] <morfic> it's something i do not want to do the way i learned it though, not on the size ways i see
[00:28:23] <andypugh> In fact, Until last weekend I didn't own a way I hadn't scraped
[00:28:32] <morfic> all i was taught was the good old flat scrapers
[00:29:39] <andypugh> I am rather hoping that Harrison (of Heckmondwike) knew what they were doing rather better than Sundeep Chuan Inc (or whoever made my lathe/mill)
[00:31:09] <alex_chally> morfic, does it needa lot of oil?
[00:31:17] <andypugh> I have to admit I love that place name.Heckmondwike (near Cleckheaton) as a place name makes it clear that for a long time bits of the UK were not under the control of the same culture as other bits.
[00:31:25] <alex_chally> the other problem is that the oil tank in the saddle is pretty tiny
[00:31:29] <Valen> can a linear way be as stiff as a regular way?
[00:31:31] <alex_chally> maybe 250ml tops
[00:31:51] <morfic> alex_chally: no, i said eats because we noodle our stuff so bad before we get stuff fixed
[00:32:22] <morfic> Valen: i don't see it, which is why i ask about it, i hope to be wrong :)
[00:32:34] <alex_chally> crap, I am going to have to come up with some kind of y axis ballscrew cover too
[00:32:40] <andypugh> Valen: I would guess not. If you mean a ball-guided way then the contact areas are necessarily tiny. On the other side of the coin the friction is reduced, so you can run zero clearance.
[00:32:40] <KimK> Bah, looks like http://www.pastebin.ca/ is down? It's just loading/waiting here.
[00:32:48] <alex_chally> * alex_chally really wants a cool sheetmetal sliding shell way cover thingy
[00:33:01] <Valen> you can preload up a linear way
[00:33:19] <Valen> KimK: looks dead
[00:33:28] <andypugh> Valen, yes. That is what I was trying to say.
[00:33:50] <alex_chally> don't they use linear bushings on ground rails for really high loads?
[00:33:52] <Valen> alex_chally: there is a guy who made a program + stuff for an "optimal bellows fold" system
[00:34:25] <andypugh> But the contacting balls are likely to be fundamentally springy. (it is worth bearing in mind that all steels have exactly the same stiffness)
[00:36:14] <alex_chally> Valen, http://www.franksworkshop.com.au/CNC/Bellows/Bellows.htm
[00:36:19] <alex_chally> pretty freaking cool actually
[00:37:07] <andypugh> Conventional ways have clearance plus huge stiffness, linear ball guides have zero clearance or positive preload and less stiffness. I would be curious to see what the state of the art in toolroom lathes is nowadays, but then that is probably realtime closed-loop metrology and wet noodles as guides would be fine.
[00:37:31] <alex_chally> ooh, the poly sheet is not particularly expensive either
[00:38:12] <andypugh> There is a better link somewhere from a (I think) a japanese origami-ist.
[00:38:32] <Valen> alex_chally: thats the guy
[00:38:32] <alex_chally> andypugh, the two new (but cheapest you can get) haas machines at school both use linear bearings
[00:39:17] <Valen> how would one do realtime metroligy?
[00:39:47] <andypugh> Valen: Laser interferometry?
[00:40:12] <alex_chally> andypugh, any link?
[00:42:03] <andypugh> alex_chally: Reading back I am sounding uncomfortably like I know what I am talking about. Let me back up and say that I am speculating from reading, a materials science / physics background and an unhealthy interest in machine tools.
[00:42:28] <alex_chally> andypugh, oh, about the bellows, not relatime metrology
[00:43:14] <andypugh> This thing here is using linear ways, and surprisingly small ones.
[00:43:15] <andypugh> http://www.deansmithandgrace.co.uk/icms_assets/files/Travelling_Gantry_Machine.pdf
[00:45:53] <andypugh> I am drawing a blank on the origami. It was actually posted here a few months back
[00:47:12] <alex_chally> mkay, I will keep looking around
[00:47:15] <morfic> andypugh: linear ways on lathes i see on smaller size lathes and the ways are horizontal/parallel to table on Z and the slant is only on X where most of that is "along the movement of the ways", but putting linear ways on a slant bed lathe just hits me as "wrong"
[00:47:27] <alex_chally> andypugh, that is a very interesting pdf
[00:47:38] <alex_chally> the X and y axis are driven by a rack and pinion 0.o
[00:47:46] <morfic> with all that weight and the cutting forces pulling/twisting the ways (in my way of thinking at least)
[00:48:53] <Valen> the way part of the linear way isn't really doing much
[00:49:07] <Valen> the underlying material takes all the load
[00:49:28] <andypugh> Again, with the right controls all you need to do is move the ways and measure where they are. It comes back to my earlier comments about experiments. If you can close the loop in the right place the actuator becomes irrelevant.
[00:50:04] <alex_chally> andypugh, oh yeah, i just think it is kind of interesting. I would not even know where to start designing movement systems for things that large
[00:50:44] <alex_chally> I mean shit, what do you make linear scales out of so they maintain their length?
[00:50:59] <alex_chally> or what do you bounce the laser off of?
[00:51:36] <andypugh> Neither would I, but would take the job without a second thought :-) (Apart from anything else working for DSG would take me "home" to Yorkshire)
[00:52:41] <Valen> andypugh: I do wonder how you would go about actually measuring the error though
[00:53:36] <morfic> Valen: linear ways on a mill table, i wouldn't even blink (and i know they work well on our mills, but there is no attempt to pull the table off the ways (which is what i liken the slant bed lathe with linear ways mod to)
[00:53:58] <andypugh> I used a system in a previous job that used a laser to measure to 1% of it's own wavelength at MHz frequencies (not at the same time, I dont't think, I belive it was nm at 100Hz and um at MHz
[00:54:05] <alex_chally> hmmm, even with a laser system you would have to average multiple sample points to correct for localized heat variances
[00:54:16] <Valen> how is the slant bed different to a regular bed, just rotated so the crud falls off?
[00:54:30] <alex_chally> a pile of hot chips on one part of the bed might move things a few thou
[00:54:33] <morfic> http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c10/mahockett/haas11.jpg again, ways that are taking most their force straight down
[00:54:37] <alex_chally> you know, when a pile of hot chips weighs 1ton
[00:54:45] <Valen> alex_chally: thats what you want to measure
[00:55:20] <alex_chally> Valen, right, but on a normalish size machine you could assume that the machine will heat up with at least a small degree of uniformity
[00:55:29] <Valen> point i'm making is from the POV of the way whats the differnce between straight "down" and at an angle to gravity
[00:55:41] <morfic> Valen: gravity alone makes a difference when you compare two ways level to floor vs on a slant bed, i *think* is the point
[00:55:49] <andypugh> The thing is, much as we like to pretend, the requirements for precision haven't moved that far.
[00:56:02] <alex_chally> morfic, is that your TL?
[00:56:21] <morfic> alex_chally: no, came across it googling for linear way lathe
[00:56:25] <alex_chally> ah
[00:56:34] <andypugh> Fits have become tighter, but point to point over a few feet very rarely matters very much.
[00:56:34] <morfic> there are a plenty, so far all Z ways are level to floor
[00:56:45] <alex_chally> anyone else used a tailstock on one of those>?
[00:57:04] <morfic> alex_chally: you the one who said what a joke the TS is?
[00:57:10] <alex_chally> morfic, yeah
[00:57:11] <alex_chally> well
[00:57:13] <alex_chally> not the entire machine
[00:57:19] <alex_chally> just the tailstock
[00:57:21] <alex_chally> oh!
[00:57:24] <alex_chally> kind of interesting
[00:57:32] <alex_chally> so we have been having problem with the turret on that lathe
[00:58:43] <andypugh> To me, the lathe bed looks immensely stiff, and the ways look woefully undersized. I am sure HAAS know what they are doing, but they might sell more with bigger ways.
[00:59:10] <alex_chally> apparently the 60psi of air that the manual says you must have is only a minimum requirement and depending on.... stuff, you might have to turn the pressure up
[00:59:11] <alex_chally> but get this
[00:59:19] <alex_chally> there is no warning on the controler
[00:59:40] <Valen> is that an air bearing system?
[00:59:42] <alex_chally> it was fucking grinding gears because the air was not popping the turret up high enough, an the control had no idea
[00:59:48] <Valen> ahh
[01:00:00] <alex_chally> which just seems kinda crazy to me
[01:00:27] <andypugh> Should be a check by the installer, I guess.
[01:00:51] <alex_chally> andypugh, it was
[01:00:57] <alex_chally> they set it at 60
[01:01:05] <alex_chally> it was even written down in the little logbook
[01:04:32] <morfic> andypugh: seeing how my boss aims at making sure the machine will take that .500" DOC i stalled our larger lathe with, i'd just feel more comfortable properly researching the ways than bobbing my head "Yes, Sir!", that's all
[01:06:16] <alex_chally> morfic, .5 radius or diameter?
[01:07:37] <morfic> Depth of cut, radial
[01:08:52] <alex_chally> that is a pretty serious cut :D
[01:09:01] <alex_chally> in alu?
[01:09:13] <morfic> Cobalt
[01:09:15] <andypugh> <digression> I was given a spec for a testing machine for a pneumatic brake system. The test was that the valve should not self-shut when 100psi was applied to it. I looked at the existing testing machine, and built on the same scale (this was a huge mistake on my part, a real lapse in engineering judgement). In service it turned out that the measured pressure was always far too low (I had been a bit clever, and my pressure
[01:09:15] <andypugh> pipe was at the unit under test, inside the feed pipe). So then (far too late) I did the maths. 100psi across a 1.25" dump valve is 20,000 cfm. Their existing tester had a restrictor downstream of the gauge. It wasn't doing the test it was meant to do, and neither could ours with any compressor the company could afford. We re-built it with 4" pipes and the biggest regulator you ever saw, but all that did was kill their pneum
[01:09:15] <andypugh> ring main. The test spec was written in about 1890, and nobody had every really considered it properly.
[01:11:18] <morfic> not what i was looking for http://www.willismachinery.com/2280_cnc_lathe_frame.asp but looks interesting anyways
[01:12:23] <alex_chally> morfic, that is kinda nifty
[01:12:31] <alex_chally> just a spindle, some servos and a cheap pc away from being useful
[01:13:01] <andypugh> Interesting."we can't decide which is best, let's use both"
[01:13:16] <morfic> alex_chally: Cobalt, trademarked name Stellite, cut with ceramics, seeing how he beefs everything up for this, the linear ways still don't seem to fit the bill, no linear rail i could google up was used on a lathe on a slant bed
[01:15:01] <andypugh> morfic: What tolerances do you work to?
[01:17:24] <morfic> i'd say .0005" that part i think was still +-.001" on two surfaces
[01:18:41] <Valen> morfic people seem to like air bearings for precision stuff
[01:20:30] <andypugh> Half a thou and very heavy cuts, that sounds like a job for conventional ways to me. For super-precsion I think ball-ways would win, but you want to really push.
[01:20:47] <morfic> Valen: i don't think we have an actual need for that, +-.001 is not so hard for what we got
[01:21:22] <morfic> andypugh: he wants both, so i think rigidity is priority
[01:22:05] <andypugh> As I said earlier, even I can get .001 on scrap machines. For the cuts you are talking of you want very, very, strong.
[01:22:11] <morfic> andypugh: i admit a certain bias on my part, i see a "yes sir" coming w/o any knowledge or research on our part
[01:22:41] <Valen> .5 " doc you are going to need a pretty beefy spindle
[01:22:53] <morfic> that's all really, i don't want to stumble blindly into anything we do on that machine, they can do that on their projects, not when i am part of the project
[01:22:54] <andypugh> The machine exists.
[01:23:22] <morfic> spindle was at 25% load when i stalled Z on the larger lathe
[01:23:31] <andypugh> Use it as it is, don't destroy it fitting linear guides then find that was a mistake.
[01:23:44] <morfic> Z was starting at 100%ish and climbed up and shut down past 150%
[01:24:00] <morfic> andypugh: exactly
[01:24:20] <morfic> andypugh: reason is the cost of grinding ways, about $25k
[01:24:33] <andypugh> Err, don't bother?
[01:24:34] <morfic> "we can just put on linear ways for less"
[01:25:07] <morfic> i think the current project is building a grinder in house?
[01:25:13] <andypugh> How bowed are the ways?
[01:26:13] <morfic> .005 dip in center of bottom way matching .005 dips on ends of top way
[01:26:18] <L84Supper> anyone know of a source for small linear actuators like these http://www.micromo.com/uploadpk/03A_S3_DFF.pdf only with a travel up to 35mm vs ~10mm?
[01:26:45] <andypugh> Your boss needs a slap. This is a production machine that actually already does the job. It is not his Hot-Rod to spend money on in search of imaginary and illusionary improvements.
[01:27:22] <andypugh> Tell you what, pay me a consultancy fee and I will slap him for you,
[01:27:37] <morfic> andypugh: started out with rust on ways from being exposed to weather for 10 yrs
[01:28:14] <morfic> i'm tempted to call the pitting from the rust "oil pockets" :P
[01:28:25] <Valen> morfic if you know the errors in the ways just tell EMC about it problem solved ;->
[01:28:34] <andypugh> Hardened ways I assume? Otherwise a little man in a brown coat and a scraper for a week is the solution.
[01:28:43] <genehacker> smoovy actuators?
[01:28:49] <genehacker> I've heard of those somewhere
[01:28:56] <genehacker> what do you want to do with them?
[01:29:08] <L84Supper> http://www.firgelliauto.com/product_info.php?cPath=110&products_id=135
[01:29:10] <morfic> andypugh: i plea the fifth, i would have to check, or assume
[01:29:50] <andypugh> Valen has a point. Why solve in hardware what can be solved in software?
[01:30:03] <morfic> andypugh: i think i might ask them to map out the ways of one of our working lathes, maybe seeing they are worse will cure it
[01:30:09] <genehacker> are you making some sort of micromill?
[01:30:20] <L84Supper> going to move a few oz. nozzles over a couple of inches of travel with 0.010" repeatability
[01:30:24] <morfic> andypugh: i knew you can map the ball screw, how do you compensate for "bowed ways" ?
[01:30:38] <andypugh> And, actually, knackeredlathekins is a really good idea
[01:30:57] <morfic> knackeredlathekins?
[01:31:05] <andypugh> I just invented it
[01:31:09] <genehacker> hmmm... so a super printer or painter then?
[01:31:21] <L84Supper> genehacker: yes, for tight spaces
[01:31:36] <genehacker> painter or 3d printer?
[01:31:37] <morfic> knackered is something brits say a lot i take it?
[01:31:40] <L84Supper> 3d
[01:32:00] <andypugh> L84Supper: Any good? http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=3831273
[01:32:02] <L84Supper> this one is cartesian and swaps out printheads
[01:32:21] <genehacker> you might want to hop on over to #reprap
[01:32:29] <genehacker> are you using the FDM process?
[01:32:41] <L84Supper> piezo inkjet
[01:32:54] <genehacker> what are you spraying?
[01:32:58] <genehacker> molten plastic
[01:33:08] <L84Supper> I'm familiar with reprap, UV cured resins
[01:33:31] <genehacker> so I take it this isn't a home project
[01:33:47] <MattyMatt> MattyMatt is now known as UnixBeard
[01:33:54] <L84Supper> nope, funded $100k machine
[01:34:01] <andypugh> morfic: I don't think there is way-wear compensation but 1) It is normally a height change, so second-order to diameter and 2) It would be a very easy kinematics compared to some.
[01:34:13] <UnixBeard> UnixBeard is now known as PapaUnixBeard
[01:34:26] <genehacker> sounds like the objet process
[01:35:10] <L84Supper> it's always so easy to find large motors and actuators but if you only want to move small light parts it's so often custom
[01:35:10] <andypugh> Help! Matt has become a Smurf!
[01:35:26] <genehacker> is this a small 3d printer?
[01:35:46] <genehacker> or a 3d printer that prints really really fast?
[01:36:08] <L84Supper> genehacker: no, actually 12' in x axis and a few inches in Y and Z
[01:36:20] <morfic> andypugh: actual question is if the face parallel to X is .005 moving, i move Y, so based on how the small face is that would move X if it was warped, that's my real X problem, no?
[01:36:24] <alex_chally> is there a reason in the verse to not buy this for my quill Z axis?
[01:36:37] <L84Supper> heh this one is around 14"/sec linear speed
[01:36:43] <Valen> you send old horses to the knackers yard
[01:36:49] <alex_chally> http://cgi.ebay.com/THK-KX-Ground-Ball-Screw-CNC-Ballscrew-New-Router-nsk-/190410265599?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c555613ff#ht_1055wt_1133
[01:36:54] <Valen> (where they get turned into glue)
[01:37:00] <andypugh> L84Supper: Ah, 2" travel, I missed that bit. This might work http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=5101114
[01:37:24] <L84Supper> yeah only 8mm on that one
[01:37:31] <alex_chally> ah
[01:37:34] <genehacker> that's a very strange machine
[01:37:36] <morfic> kins, kinematics.....oh damn i'm slow
[01:37:37] <alex_chally> 3" of travel is the answer
[01:37:38] <alex_chally> lame
[01:37:52] <morfic> oldlathekinematics, haha, boo, i suck
[01:38:28] <L84Supper> andypugh: more of a liner type since I have to gang 5 close together
[01:38:34] <L84Supper> http://www.firgelliauto.com/product_info.php?cPath=110&products_id=135
[01:38:49] <L84Supper> sp linear type ;)
[01:38:56] <andypugh> L84Supper: Push-wires and remote actuators?
[01:39:06] <L84Supper> maybe
[01:39:13] <L84Supper> like a piano
[01:39:49] <andypugh> Solid guided wires (wire in tube) can work very well.
[01:39:53] <L84Supper> genehacker: we build custom 3d printers as well
[01:40:23] <genehacker> that must be a very specialized application
[01:40:27] <morfic> andypugh: i will concentrate on drive motor this week if i have any chance, i doubt anybody does any research on linear way anyway, so i shouldn't need to worry until after we settled the spindle/drive issue ;)
[01:40:49] <andypugh> Do it incrementally
[01:41:00] <genehacker> so you work for objet, as I'm not aware of any other company that can use the inkjet UV cure process
[01:41:31] <L84Supper> genehacker: yeah, they all are, sometimes robot arms are used, this application has parts 10 feet long
[01:41:55] <alex_chally> so here is another good screw, proper length but a very fine thread
[01:41:56] <alex_chally> 2mm
[01:42:13] <genehacker> so are people using 3d printers for mass production now?
[01:42:20] <andypugh> Your boss is a liablity. His job is to curb your outlandish enthusiasm and insist in backup data, not go wild with expensive plans. (And if you want to tell him I said so, feel free)
[01:42:42] <L84Supper> genehacker: starting to, tubing, baseball bats, toy cars, dolls, cans, bottles etc
[01:43:23] <andypugh> genehacker: I have had UV-cured parts printed at work and I don't recognise the "Objet" name
[01:43:54] <genehacker> products not prototypes?
[01:43:55] <L84Supper> plus there are more ways than one to radiation cure a resin
[01:44:04] <genehacker> yeah
[01:44:15] <andypugh> But my favourite machine is the CAD to Sand to Iron/Aluminium machine.
[01:44:20] <morfic> andypugh: my outlandish enthusiasm? :)
[01:44:42] <L84Supper> oh sorry for the confusion 3d printer vs non-planar printers for printing the decorative surface layer on objects
[01:45:05] <alex_chally> would it be a bad thing to spin a ballscrew 2400 RPM?
[01:45:10] <morfic> he is quick taking off 10 inserts we use a lot, but when it comes to "let's build our own ways grinder" money is spent quick
[01:45:13] <L84Supper> these are for high res full color decorating
[01:45:57] <andypugh> morfic: Normally, yes, Engineers have wild ideas, older wiser heads say "tried that, didn't work then, convince me it can work now"
[01:46:44] <L84Supper> I'm pretty sure objet just designs machines for protos made from uv cured resins
[01:46:52] <PapaUnixBeard> PapaUnixBeard is now known as MattyMatt
[01:47:13] <MattyMatt> I never touched 2.4, it wasn't me, guv
[01:47:21] <andypugh> When I said your boss was a liability, I meant it. Crikey, put me in a management role and we would be bankrupt in a month.
[01:47:23] <morfic> andypugh: that's a problem, noone knows and say "sure, we do it" (all the time), so i feel like i have to play devil's advocate and stop everyone asking question, making them find out stuff.....if it still looks like it'll work fine, if not, "phew, close one"
[01:47:44] <MattyMatt> ^Valen, re Salvarane's problem
[01:48:16] <morfic> andypugh: if nothing else, we gain the knowledge that it works and WHY it works
[01:48:37] <andypugh> morfic: Yes, and that should be your boss' role. He should be the devils egg-nogg.
[01:49:47] <morfic> andypugh: it usually is what he does, and i better know why i wanted that $85 CAT40 holder for our mill....
[01:50:22] <andypugh> Of course, it might depend on how close to the edge your company is. I have never really worked anywhere that wasn't teetering on the brink of going under.
[01:50:30] <L84Supper> why are all the actuators on ebay either 6" too short or >12" too long for my projects?
[01:50:56] <MattyMatt> it's your projects that are the wrong size, obviously
[01:51:08] <MattyMatt> >:)
[01:51:11] <L84Supper> :)
[01:51:12] <andypugh> L84Supper: Beacause your project is too big or too small
[01:51:21] <morfic> andypugh: only good he is good at, balancing money coming in and going out, he can do the project now based on some rather nice orders, of fast paying customers
[01:51:34] <MattyMatt> with that I bid you all a restful and comfortable goodnight
[01:52:33] <andypugh> In that case, then you might want to follow some wilder tracks, but there is no going back from machining off the ways and fitting tracks.
[01:52:40] <L84Supper> anyone tried the NanoMuscle stuff yet? http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8782
[01:52:48] <alex_chally> I am having problems finding short ballscrews with a lead angle larger then 2mm
[01:53:36] <L84Supper> http://www.sparkfun.com/datasheets/Robotics/NM70.pdf
[01:54:03] <andypugh> alex_chally: Don't you order the length you need?
[01:54:09] <L84Supper> is only 1.1g yet moves a 70g load
[01:55:03] <andypugh> morfic: One idea might be to convert the ways to that "turcite" that that earlier ad mentioned.
[01:55:50] <andypugh> http://www.mtsandtg.com/specialty/turcite
[01:57:55] <andypugh> L84Supper: I would definitely be ordering a sample of the NM70 were I you.
[01:57:58] <alex_chally> andypugh, i am trying to find a used ground one on ebay
[01:58:19] <alex_chally> although I because the length of the screw is so short, I could probably get by just fine with a rolled screw
[01:58:33] <andypugh> You can always shorten it with an angle grinder
[01:58:48] <alex_chally> but it makes me sad to pay for thread I have to cut off
[01:59:23] <andypugh> Yes. In fact is is my opinion that ground ones are a waste of money unless NASA are paying you for the parts.
[02:00:02] <andypugh> Buy one that will do X and Y then cut to suit?
[02:00:23] <alex_chally> hmmm, I have to cut like 8 or 9" of screw off of my X screw
[02:00:31] <alex_chally> I wonder if I could part it off and get another ball nut
[02:00:46] <andypugh> In theory, yes
[02:01:05] <andypugh> You need to get the right ball nut.
[02:01:09] <alex_chally> yeah
[02:01:21] <alex_chally> and that will probably be more then a new nut/screw combo used on ebay
[02:01:54] <andypugh> I got caught that way myself, ended up with a nut that really, really, did not fit the screw
[02:02:12] <alex_chally> http://cgi.ebay.com/NSK-Ballscrew-and-nut-assembly-CNC-Robot-Leadscrew-THK-/320485396831?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4a9e6b115f#ht_987wt_1133
[02:02:13] <alex_chally> hmmm
[02:02:18] <alex_chally> not a lot of info about it
[02:02:50] <andypugh> Ball screws are really quite cheap, like £4 for 100mm
[02:03:32] <alex_chally> i must get food
[02:03:34] <alex_chally> be back later
[02:03:46] <andypugh> Not yet.
[02:03:54] <andypugh> Give me 3 mins..
[02:04:54] <andypugh> http://www.slidesandballscrews.com/r1205-ballscrew-p-329.html?cPath=39
[02:07:28] <andypugh> Time to log. Have fun chaps
[03:33:41] <genehacker__> genehacker__ is now known as genehacker
[03:39:28] <Valen> alex_chally: take a look at linearmotionbearings2008 on ebay
[03:39:40] <Valen> he sells ballscrews+nuts for cheap
[03:39:46] <Valen> new ones made to measure
[03:49:55] <MattyMatt> if they are made to measure, are they as good as factory hardened ones?
[03:50:40] <MattyMatt> like I really care :) my current leadscrews are BZP
[03:52:03] <KimK> BZP?
[03:52:13] <MattyMatt> bright zinc plated
[03:52:32] <MattyMatt> hot dipped mild steel
[03:53:25] <MattyMatt> or maybe it's electroplating, and the dull ones are the hot dipped, I'm not sure
[03:54:08] <KimK> Ah, thanks, I hadn't heard that one. Leadscrews like all-thread? (spelling?)
[03:54:16] <MattyMatt> yep
[03:55:47] <MattyMatt> the dull ones, used for concrete, are described as galvanised, but I think that has become a generic term for any method of zincing
[03:57:13] <KimK> Yes, I would think the same way. And you have a tabletop mill with Nema 23 steppers? If so, you're in the majority of users.
[03:57:58] <MattyMatt> I do plan to upgrade one more axis when this job is done
[03:58:36] <KimK> Adding a 4th?
[03:58:39] <MattyMatt> the althread is OK now it has a plastic nut, but the small pitch is just too slow
[03:58:50] <MattyMatt> ah that too :)
[03:59:19] <MattyMatt> the motor is already connected, I just need a chuck
[03:59:30] <KimK> Oh, you mean switching screws? Going to ballscrews one at a time?
[04:00:12] <MattyMatt> yep. I got one sealed ballscrew unit on ebay while building it
[04:00:24] <KimK> (sorry if I seem confused, I had to reboot and lost my back-text)
[04:00:40] <KimK> * KimK hates when that happens
[04:00:51] <MattyMatt> http://imagebin.ca/view/VYrny5J.html
[04:01:44] <MattyMatt> that pic shows everything. the nice ballscew I have, the M8 under the table which I want to replace, and the 4th axis motor sitting on the PSU waiting for a chuck
[04:02:57] <MattyMatt> you can also see the single wingnut holding the spindle on, that's plan B for 4th axis
[04:04:24] <KimK> I also like your on-off (autostart?) switch in the extreme lower left corner.
[04:06:59] <MattyMatt> oh yes, finest red wire jammed in the socket :) the psu has a switch on the back
[04:07:37] <MattyMatt> 2.5mm2 copper mains wire, it's a good fit
[04:07:56] <Jymmm> so is a paperclip
[04:08:37] <MattyMatt> I wasn't entirely sure how live it is
[04:10:17] <MattyMatt> the WP page suggested it's a high impedence input, shorted to gnd, but I wasn't taking chances
[04:10:28] <MattyMatt> the copper stays in nicely too
[04:10:40] <Jymmm> so does a paperclip
[04:10:45] <Jymmm> =)
[04:11:29] <KimK> So is Y the axis you upgraded already?
[04:11:59] <MattyMatt> nope not yet, when this job is done
[04:12:41] <MattyMatt> I just made a plastic nut for it which is nice interim upgrade by itself. backlash has vanished
[04:14:24] <MattyMatt> but back to linearmotionbearings2008. I was eyeing up their ballscrews for the upgrade when it does happen.
[04:15:40] <MattyMatt> and while the machine is still structurally plywood, I shouldn't care too much if the ballscrews are properly hardened :)
[04:16:27] <MattyMatt> I like to think of the plywood as a template for where the steel will be one day
[04:16:38] <Jymmm> heh
[04:21:37] <Valen> these are rolled screws
[04:21:57] <Valen> they say C7 grade
[04:21:59] <MattyMatt> I'll keep a plywood shell forever, on the outside at least, I think it helps with the noise & vibration
[04:22:27] <Valen> cutting them on the lathe "sucks donkey balls"
[04:22:39] <Valen> they are some kind of hard steel at least
[04:23:11] <MattyMatt> that'll do me. it's basically only the pitch I care about
[04:23:58] <MattyMatt> my X is 8x the pitch, and moves 8x as fast. my speed is purely motor RPM limited
[04:24:30] <MattyMatt> so a higher voltage supply is high on the agenda too
[04:26:03] <MattyMatt> my motors are 8 wire, wired parallel, rated 1A, does that mean I can give them 2A?
[04:26:37] <MattyMatt> I am already, and they're still barely warm
[04:33:09] <MattyMatt> bleh I went to bed 3 hours ago, but couldn't sleep. now I've got to face the choice of sequencing 61 cuts in gedit, or making a "playlist editor" in the blender script...with no sleep
[04:36:58] <MattyMatt> http://imagebin.ca/view/UhfSkRvm.html
[04:40:42] <MattyMatt> that is something the script badly needs tho
[04:42:01] <MattyMatt> all I can do now, is select a bunch of cuts and press Export. they come out random except the last one selected is always first
[04:44:20] <Valen> probably
[04:44:43] <Valen> RE the 2A question
[04:45:27] <MattyMatt> yeah it seems likely. I reasoned it out for someone else's then suddenly realised mine's like that :)
[04:45:56] <MattyMatt> and my motors are not as warm as you'd expect for being pushed hard all day
[04:47:35] <MattyMatt> and modern hybrid 4 wire motors the same size are 2A, and a copper coil is a copper coil
[04:48:19] <Valen> all you need to watch for is saturation and heat really
[04:48:32] <Valen> once you saturate the core more amps just gives you more heat
[04:49:17] <MattyMatt> ah so when I up the voltage, I'll get saturation more easily, so I'll watch out then
[04:49:53] <Valen> its done by ampturns
[04:50:09] <Valen> basically amps = torque
[04:50:18] <Valen> when you saturate the core more amps = no gain
[04:50:34] <MattyMatt> yep
[04:50:40] <Valen> more volts means your more likley to be able to saturate it
[04:50:47] <MattyMatt> yep
[04:51:04] <Valen> *but* the thing is, the faster you go the higher the back emf
[04:51:14] <Valen> so thats why they have current limited drivers ;->
[04:51:24] <Valen> so you can get full speed at full torque
[04:51:53] <Valen> you can get a similar net effect with a low value resistor though ;->
[04:52:24] <MattyMatt> I still need to experiment with the decay settings
[04:53:09] <MattyMatt> I set to the fastest, but I think that's costing me torque
[04:53:54] <Valen> simple way to do things is probably to put a known current through the motor and see what torque you need to break step
[04:54:00] <Valen> more current measure torque
[04:54:03] <Valen> etc etc
[04:54:14] <Valen> untill you see the current Vs torque drop off
[04:54:21] <Valen> (it'll be moderatley dramatic)
[04:54:53] <MattyMatt> one thing I'll try is stepping the bare motor as fast as possible. load doesn't seem to make much diffference
[04:55:18] <Valen> you may be limited by inductance
[04:55:33] <MattyMatt> except when there's serious friction like while the nuts are bedding in
[04:55:35] <Valen> if 2A is maxing out your coil then theres going to be a lot of turns
[04:56:19] <MattyMatt> 3.5ohm per winding, which seems pretty average
[04:58:14] <MattyMatt> the name SloSyn implies they'd be bigger coils than typical, to get positioning torque at the expense of speed, but they seem fairly normal
[04:58:51] <MattyMatt> 200rpm approx, but I think that's because of the 12V supply
[04:59:58] <MattyMatt> a slowish machine is good for learning on maybe :) no spectacular crashes yet
[05:00:47] <Valen> you can series ATX supplies yaknow
[05:00:56] <Valen> also load the 5V rail
[05:01:18] <MattyMatt> I think cheap ones are just one rail inside
[05:01:29] <MattyMatt> common earth at the very least
[05:01:36] <Valen> they have 5 and 12V inside them
[05:01:52] <Valen> thing is they wont put out 12V under load if you dont also put a load on the 5V rail
[05:02:10] <MattyMatt> I don't fancy that, I'll try it with a dead one first
[05:02:19] <Valen> try what?
[05:02:27] <Valen> i dont mean connect the 5 and 12v
[05:02:38] <Valen> i mean for more volts use 2 atx supplies
[05:02:43] <MattyMatt> ah
[05:02:55] <MattyMatt> that sound even risky tbh
[05:02:58] <Valen> but to use an atx supply put a 5-10W load on the 5v rail
[05:03:06] <Valen> eh i've done it it works
[05:03:08] <Valen> and its cheap
[05:03:17] <Valen> rip em out of computers on the side of the road
[05:03:59] <MattyMatt> this one is happy with no load on 5V. I had a meter on 12V and it's steady
[05:04:59] <MattyMatt> so the black wires aren't connected to the case of the psu?
[05:05:49] <Valen> dunno, I'd say they probably are
[05:06:14] <Valen> thats why I was saying if you want to series them you need to cut the earth wire
[05:06:22] <Valen> in the 240v side
[05:06:28] <MattyMatt> ah didn't catch that
[05:06:39] <MattyMatt> and I don't fancy that
[05:06:42] <Valen> (and make sure they dont touch)
[05:07:43] <MattyMatt> changing the zener seems easier and safer
[05:07:53] <Valen> zener?
[05:08:08] <MattyMatt> but I'm still not really confident with switching psus
[05:08:33] <MattyMatt> yeah the voltage is regulated by a zener in the feedback loop
[05:09:46] <MattyMatt> pretty much like a chopper, but constant voltage instead of constant current
[05:10:01] <Valen> sounds messy
[05:10:14] <MattyMatt> simple diode change, possibly
[05:11:02] <Valen> oh well time to go play with our mill
[05:11:09] <MattyMatt> it may be more complicated than that, I'll learn more before I try it
[05:11:34] <MattyMatt> blue led in series will add 3V to the zener voltage :)
[05:11:51] <MattyMatt> leds are effective low voltage zeners
[05:12:35] <Valen> I'll just take my free 12V 10A power supply thanks
[05:13:58] <MattyMatt> I'll live with my one. I've used up most of my good ones. one good one went in my last roadkill recovery (my emc machine) and my other spares are 200-250W
[05:14:59] <MattyMatt> and I can get a nice 7A 24V one for e18 from germany
[05:16:30] <MattyMatt> and I have a 35VA 12-0-12 lump which will let me test one motor at 24
[05:19:48] <MattyMatt> bleh 6.30am. too late to sleep, too early to mill, too tired to add fancy bit to script. looks like I'm hand assembling today's gcode
[05:21:09] <MattyMatt> I'd go jogging, but I don't have any lycra
[05:21:57] <MattyMatt> too late, you got the picture,hahaha
[05:23:06] <Jymmm> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/tls/1820171153.html
[05:23:59] <MattyMatt> they make new ones?!
[05:27:05] <MattyMatt> shiny, but I'd rather have a used one and $10k change
[05:31:15] <MattyMatt> 7 axis? do they all have that many?
[05:32:39] <MattyMatt> 8 (forgot the quill)
[06:11:40] <alex_chally> ok, got the PSU down to like 76V under load
[06:11:47] <alex_chally> so probably won't fry my drivers now
[06:14:14] <alex_chally> yay
[06:21:44] <PCW_> PCW_ is now known as PCW
[06:26:12] <alex_chally> wow
[06:26:25] <alex_chally> Jymmm, that mill is like 100 miles from me
[06:26:26] <alex_chally> hmmm
[06:26:36] <alex_chally> i should ditch my project in the middle and go broke buying that
[06:26:41] <Jymmm> Well, there ya go
[06:45:08] <salvarane> Hello <MattyMatt> I riceved this error http://pastebin.com/qEupK7iE could you suggest me a guide
[06:45:20] <salvarane> for resolv this error
[06:48:49] <salvarane> in this moment I have to come out from my house , more late I writing you , sorry thanks
[06:53:40] <MattyMatt> I know nothing about emc2.4
[06:53:50] <MattyMatt> mistaken identity
[06:54:09] <MattyMatt> someone else beginning with M probably :)
[06:58:44] <alex_joni> salvarane: insmod: error inserting '/usr/realtime/modules/rtai_hal.ko': -1 File exists
[07:01:41] <alex_joni> sounds like there's a problem with your RTAI install..
[07:01:42] <alex_joni> maybe it just didn't unload cleanly
[07:01:42] <salvarane> Its probably. However thanks.
[07:01:42] <Jymmm> alex_joni: http://www.thinkgeek.com/computing/usb-gadgets/7e3e/?cpg=froogle
[07:06:22] <Jymmm> alex_joni: pinggggg
[07:06:36] <salvarane> Thanks, I have to go out. Head you later
[07:07:26] <alex_joni> Jymmm: pong
[07:07:32] <Jymmm> alex_joni: http://www.thinkgeek.com/computing/usb-gadgets/7e3e/?cpg=froogle
[07:08:18] <alex_joni> Jymmm: saw it, I think it's too expensive
[07:09:46] <Jymmm> alex_joni: Yeah, forget the price. I have one, but honestly, I really can't think of any use for it.
[07:10:55] <alex_joni> I would put some weather stats up on it
[07:11:16] <Jymmm> Yeah, then what?
[07:11:19] <Jymmm> =)
[07:11:41] <alex_joni> well.. maybe for 5$ or so
[07:11:54] <alex_joni> I spent less than 50$ on my webradio :)
[07:12:07] <Jymmm> ah
[07:12:23] <alex_joni> Jymmm: this one http://juve.ro/blog/projects/radio
[07:14:54] <Jymmm> Ok, I forgot you put in a LCD in it
[07:15:41] <alex_joni> pretty similar size LCD
[07:16:00] <Jymmm> alex_joni: I have a PicoITX too, and can't figure out what to do with it either. Maybe I should put all the useless things together and see what I get =)
[07:16:12] <Jymmm> alex_joni: same size 4x20 LCD
[07:17:44] <alex_joni> heh
[07:18:01] <alex_joni> I once connected a bigger graphical LCD to a parport/linux
[07:18:05] <alex_joni> used it as a console
[07:18:54] <Jymmm> heh
[07:19:17] <alex_joni> Jymmm: here are some examples: https://ssl.bulix.org/projects/lcd4linux/wiki/CoolStuff
[07:21:34] <Jymmm> I like the indigo blue, I have a 2x16 one here
[07:21:58] <alex_joni> http://blog.automated.it/2007/10/01/pertelian-lcd-driver/
[07:22:21] <Jymmm> Hmmm, I have some small satellite speakers, maybe I can use the PIco + LCD for a media box too
[07:23:43] <alex_joni> ;)
[07:25:07] <Jymmm> need an tiny amp though
[07:25:17] <alex_joni> on another note we just got a 5% VAT increase
[07:25:29] <Jymmm> Nice.... NOT!
[07:26:03] <Jymmm> Though, I need to figure out a nice UI if I do. How did you do yours?
[07:26:24] <alex_joni> the radio?
[07:26:27] <alex_joni> I wrote mine..
[07:26:37] <Jymmm> yeah, what did you do though?
[07:27:01] <alex_joni> didn't get that..
[07:27:17] <Jymmm> can you select different stations? Volume up/dn/mute?
[07:27:22] <alex_joni> yup
[07:27:24] <Jymmm> random,
[07:27:27] <Jymmm> etc
[07:27:34] <alex_joni> didn't implement random
[07:27:50] <Jymmm> Well, HOW though, all I see is a single knob
[07:28:07] <alex_joni> it's a rotary/push button
[07:28:11] <alex_joni> short push = ok
[07:28:16] <alex_joni> long push = cancel
[07:28:24] <alex_joni> rotate = up/down
[07:28:36] <Jymmm> Never seen a two-step knob like that
[07:28:39] <alex_joni> so you have: main menu (play/select/stand-by-weather)
[07:28:50] <alex_joni> it's not two-step.. it gets read by a micro
[07:29:00] <Jymmm> OH! ok
[07:29:08] <alex_joni> if the push is short micro sends ok, if it's longer it sends cancel
[07:29:29] <alex_joni> so, main menu (play/select/stand-by/weather)
[07:29:43] <alex_joni> after a while of inactivity, it goes automatically to stand-by
[07:29:59] <alex_joni> stand-by means: date/time, some current weather info
[07:30:12] <alex_joni> weather: forecast for today + 3 days
[07:30:19] <Jymmm> ok
[07:30:37] <alex_joni> in play you get: station/song title, volume, current temp., date/time
[07:30:41] <Jymmm> so you have to turn the knob to keep playing musci?
[07:30:42] <alex_joni> up/down is volume
[07:30:59] <alex_joni> you go to select, chose your radio station, and push ok
[07:31:07] <alex_joni> then it starts playing, and stays in 'play'
[07:31:16] <alex_joni> if you rotate the knob you get volume up/down
[07:31:16] <Jymmm> Right, but you said there's an inactivity timer
[07:31:25] <alex_joni> only for the main menu if idle
[07:31:32] <Jymmm> ah
[07:31:37] <alex_joni> there's a ini file for the program
[07:31:42] <alex_joni> where you can specify some stuff
[07:31:51] <alex_joni> like autoplay on startup, radio stations, etc
[07:32:41] <alex_joni> http://dsplabs.upt.ro/~juve/openwrt/soft/builder/package/radio/data/radio.conf
[07:34:42] <Jymmm> alex_joni: So, what did you use to get the audio (hardware wise)?
[07:36:00] <alex_joni> used a cheap usb/sound thingie
[07:36:15] <Jymmm> ah
[07:36:36] <Jymmm> like one of these http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.22475
[07:36:36] <alex_joni> similar to this one: http://mightyohm.com/blog/2008/10/inside-the-syba-sd-cm-uaud-usb-stereo-audio-adapter/
[07:36:49] <alex_joni> exactly that one
[07:37:02] <alex_joni> I still have 3 or so left :D
[07:37:10] <Jymmm> From DX ?
[07:37:37] <alex_joni> yup
[07:37:58] <Jymmm> Yeah, I'm glad I found that place, and it looks like everyone else is too =)
[07:38:22] <Jymmm> My latest order shipped today, just waiting for it to arrive =)
[07:38:22] <alex_joni> :P
[07:38:42] <alex_joni> I did order some stuff at one point,which never arrived
[07:38:52] <Jymmm> Customs?
[07:38:59] <Jymmm> they WILL refund your money.
[07:39:16] <alex_joni> nah, shipped to CT, US
[07:40:35] <Jymmm> did you get a refund?
[07:42:29] <Jymmm> or replacement shipment at least.
[07:42:49] <Jymmm> They're slow, but they have good Customer Service that way.
[07:50:38] <alex_joni> didn't really track it.. it was 6-7 months ago
[07:50:59] <Jymmm> ah
[07:52:16] <awallin> when we order from DX and then buy the iGadgets like crazy here in the west should we then laugh or cry when we hear about the foxcon workers jumping off the balcony...
[07:54:46] <Jymmm> alex_joni: very bottom of page http://www.dealextreme.com/TermsAndPolicy.html#return_policy
[07:55:15] <Jymmm> "...package takes longer (more than 30 days) to reach you..."
[07:56:03] <Jymmm> Alright folks, g'night!
[08:05:13] <alex_joni> this is a nice device: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.36387
[11:01:09] <Fox_M|afk> Fox_M|afk is now known as Fox_Muldr
[11:31:12] <Fox_Muldr> Fox_Muldr is now known as Fox_M|afk
[13:06:48] <skunkworks_> http://cnczone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=794489&postcount=47
[13:07:25] <skunkworks_> hmm - mach 'crashed' it. and now emc doesn't work also.
[13:09:37] <skunkworks_> Good morning!
[13:10:47] <micges_work> hi
[13:12:16] <skunkworks_> micges_work: morning. how are things in PL?
[13:13:02] <micges_work> quite ok
[13:13:17] <micges_work> we'll vote for president soon
[13:13:35] <skunkworks_> oh - you lost yours - didn't you?
[13:13:40] <skunkworks_> plane crash?
[13:13:43] <micges_work> yep
[13:14:30] <micges_work> and we're recovering from 3weeks flood
[13:14:41] <skunkworks_> yikes.
[13:15:34] <skunkworks_> no major issues here.. But across the USA weather has caused lots of issues. (we had tornados in the next state over)
[14:33:15] <elmo40> skunkworks_: lol, mach 'crashed' it. :P
[14:33:52] <elmo40> we had a tornado last week, here in Ontario. Very unheard of for us.
[14:34:46] <skunkworks_> scary
[14:36:12] <elmo40> indeed
[15:16:54] <bricofoy> hi all
[15:18:36] <bricofoy> do you know if there is a possibility to uncheck a pyvcp checkbutton from the hal file ?
[15:21:46] <bricofoy> I mean by changing the value of the associated halpin, like you can do when programming using QT or other GUI-toolkit
[15:22:02] <bricofoy> or another way, if any
[15:32:34] <SWPadnos> bricofoy, no, I don't think so. the HAL pin for a checkbox is an output, and you can't set output pins from halcmd
[15:35:55] <bricofoy> I see that, I tried
[15:36:19] <bricofoy> wanted to know if ther is another way, or at least to disable the entire widget
[15:36:55] <bricofoy> I tried adding the <disablepin>true attribute, like we can do for regular buttons, but this is not reconized
[15:37:05] <SWPadnos> I think there's an option to create an enable-pin, but I don't know which widgets support it
[15:37:23] <SWPadnos> and even if you disable the widget, the HAL pin is still there, with its output in whatever state
[15:37:45] <bricofoy> yeah bu I can do some logic on the output insude the hal file
[15:37:58] <bricofoy> inside
[15:38:03] <SWPadnos> you could always run its output through an and2 block, and use the other line to control whether the button state "passes" through the and
[15:38:07] <SWPadnos> right
[15:39:36] <PCW_> PCW_ is now known as PCW
[15:40:21] <bricofoy> I think I wiil do the thing with a regular button, witch triggers a latch, and a led to show the state
[15:40:38] <bricofoy> but will be more complicated
[15:41:00] <bricofoy> I whished there where a simpler way
[15:41:18] <SWPadnos> what are you actually trying to do?
[15:45:04] <bricofoy> I use EMC to control a gluing machine, I have an input for the "running out of glue" switch, that trigger pause on the program. Then the user as to refill glue tank, but in order to du that, he must depressurise the tank, by doing something on the pyvcp panel, like checking a checkbutton. Then after the refill is done, uncheck the thing, the hit "resume" on the control panel
[15:45:39] <bricofoy> I need something to repressurise the glue tank if the user, for some reson forgott ti do it manually before resuming the program
[15:46:26] <cradek> you could write "don't forget to repressurize the glue" on a sticky note and stick it on the monitor
[15:46:26] <SWPadnos> ah. so one possible solution is to prevent "resume" from working until the "refilling" button has been unchecked and the pressure has stabilized
[15:47:02] <bricofoy> yeas, thins is exactly the thing I was think out when you wrote it :)
[15:47:06] <bricofoy> this is
[15:47:15] <SWPadnos> the sticky note?
[15:47:17] <SWPadnos> :)
[15:47:21] <bricofoy> LOL
[15:47:43] <SWPadnos> coffee time. bbiab
[15:47:44] <cradek> user will learn fast enough
[15:48:09] <bricofoy> I fact this is really a better way to do, as I also prevent resume while the "low glue" is still active
[15:48:23] <bricofoy> thanks
[16:38:59] <waprat> waprat is now known as packrat
[17:11:49] <alex_chally> LawrenceG, thanks for that diagram the other day
[17:12:21] <alex_chally> got everything wired up proper, 10 wraps on the primary giving me 78V w/o a load, 76v or so wiht
[17:12:22] <alex_chally> with
[17:12:42] <alex_chally> I might stilll kill a drive with back EMF, but that is what I get :D
[17:29:22] <frallzor> * frallzor killed a 6mm tool just now
[17:30:04] <alex_chally> frallzor, :D
[17:30:07] <sealive> use a 10mm
[17:30:13] <alex_chally> just crack it, or did it blow up good?
[17:31:09] <frallzor> bit of both
[17:31:18] <alex_chally> w00t
[17:31:21] <frallzor> dont know why, either some odd code or it just was loose
[17:31:26] <alex_chally> someone at school popped a HSS parting tool the other day
[17:31:30] <frallzor> and spun downards
[17:31:36] <frallzor> *w
[17:31:36] <alex_chally> it went kinda *ping* and then *pow*
[17:31:41] <alex_chally> a lot like a gun shot
[17:31:48] <sealive> best for blow up is a 75mm Diameter 7Touth miller
[17:31:54] <frallzor> some is still in the spindle, some on the piece and some went flying
[17:32:17] <alex_chally> i am trying to think of the most expensive tool I have killed
[17:32:25] <alex_chally> hmm
[17:32:39] <alex_chally> last term for an unknown reason I broke a really nice 1/2" carbide chamfer mill
[17:32:57] <alex_chally> we had been using it all term, and I ran a program I had done like 5x already that day
[17:33:06] <alex_chally> it just shattered, no idea why
[17:33:39] <sealive> sometimes realy nasty things happen
[17:35:52] <mikegg> I broke a 1 x 3" carbide roughing endmill one time
[17:36:27] <mikegg> had my offsets wrong. tool took off right through the middle of a part rather than skim the outside
[17:36:57] <sealive> nice blust
[17:37:46] <sealive> best is optimise the toolpath by hand to -100
[17:38:07] <sealive> at the 2nd last sentence
[17:38:16] <alex_chally> mikegg, I got my transformer voltage down, it was super easy
[17:38:33] <alex_chally> mikegg, just did like 10 more wraps around the primary, didn't have to unwrap the torroid or anything
[17:38:51] <mikegg> really!?
[17:38:57] <mikegg> I just got an RMA for mine
[17:39:14] <mikegg> how did you know which way to wrap?
[17:39:24] <alex_chally> mikegg, if you wrap the wrong way voltage goes up not down :)
[17:39:42] <mikegg> I see..
[17:39:48] <mikegg> 10 wraps eh?
[17:40:15] <mikegg> how much over voltage was it to begin with?
[17:40:49] <sealive> wraps=turns of a screw driver ?
[17:41:38] <mikegg> wraps = wire windings around a transformer
[17:42:13] <alex_chally> mikegg, 10v ish
[17:42:22] <mikegg> ok, me too.
[17:42:31] <alex_chally> the transformer was meant for 115:56
[17:42:35] <alex_chally> but my wall power is 125
[17:43:30] <sealive> Thanks here its 245V
[17:48:29] <moop> anyone here can help newbie to servos?
[17:49:02] <mikegg> I like servos
[17:49:13] <moop> I have a dc motor with HEDS9100 encoder, and wonder if i can direct drive it from emc?
[17:49:15] <sealive> i use steppers only
[17:49:40] <mikegg> what kind of drive are you using?
[17:50:02] <moop> I have used servos before but only ones with step/dir inputs
[17:50:04] <mikegg> is it brushed or brushless
[17:51:06] <moop> I have no drives, I am wondering if emc supports taking the A B encoder signals and switching on a forward/reverse signal depending on the encoder????
[17:51:39] <awallin> moop: a very minimal setup would use the parallel port and one L298 or similar chip for a simple H-bridge amp
[17:51:46] <awallin> there was something on the wiki...
[17:51:51] <moop> so all I would need is a DC supply and a forward/reverse switch??
[17:52:17] <awallin> the forward/reverse switch is a H-bridge which you drive with a PWM signal (or two)
[17:52:57] <awallin> here: http://emergent.unpythonic.net/projects/01142347802
[17:53:01] <moop> IThe device is an amatrol pegasus robot arm
[17:53:16] <awallin> if it is a low-power motor and you are just learning about servos then that could be a good project for you
[17:54:35] <moop> the motors could be driven by a couple of uln2003 chips
[17:55:13] <moop> I will read the web link and maybe return later
[17:55:24] <moop> many thanks for the advice
[17:55:33] <awallin> uln2003 looks like max 500mA
[17:56:13] <sealive> uln 2805
[17:56:18] <awallin> L298 is up to 4A (you will have to cool it then)
[17:57:06] <moop> I think the motors max at 1.1A so running a couple of darlintons in parallel should work
[17:57:34] <moop> and a L298 is about 10 times the price of a uln2003
[17:57:37] <sealive> this woudt be a sa1022
[17:58:21] <awallin> L298 is 3euros, I would not worry about that :)
[17:58:32] <sealive> for l298 you need plenty of high speed diods not cheep at all
[17:58:53] <moop> uln2003 is less than .3 euros
[17:59:13] <i_tarzan> moop, robot arm price on market?
[17:59:17] <sealive> moop no speed with that device
[17:59:46] <moop> I got the pegasus on ebay for 20 euros
[17:59:47] <frallzor> 2 reasons for tool failure
[18:00:03] <frallzor> it was shitty due to testing out speeds for alu and it was loose
[18:00:14] <frallzor> new tool = success!
[18:00:40] <awallin> rule1: attach the stock well, rule2: attach the tool well
[18:00:55] <frallzor> well it was well attached
[18:00:59] <frallzor> but it was superdull
[18:01:05] <frallzor> so it wiggled loose
[18:01:11] <awallin> ok
[18:01:17] <frallzor> new tool made 2 nice pieces
[18:08:12] <mikegg> a robot for 20 euros!? sweet
[18:12:47] <awallin> moop: like this one? http://www.theoldrobots.com/images27/Pegasus7.JPG
[18:13:28] <L84Supper> oh, I thought it might be this one http://cgi.ebay.com/POPY-Japanese-Tekkaman-Pegasus-Robot-jumbo-machinder-BX-/140341493606?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20ad013f66 :)
[18:13:55] <awallin> that one is cool too
[18:14:27] <frallzor> this is some top notch Alu
[18:18:02] <moop> yes awallin, thats the exact robot arm I have
[18:18:27] <moop> I have gone robot arm crazy on ebay this week
[18:18:51] <awallin> what are you going to do with all the arms then...
[18:19:14] <moop> I also bought a TQ MA 3000, and a UMI RTX robot arm
[18:19:48] <moop> I going to use them for transfering components between lathe and mill
[18:20:16] <moop> thats if I ever eventually get all my projects going
[18:20:51] <skunkworks_> heh
[18:21:09] <skunkworks_> I know what that is like
[18:21:10] <moop> I guess its going to take at least another year
[18:21:36] <moop> and i keep wasting time looking at ebay trying to find new bargains
[18:21:54] <skunkworks_> and new projects
[18:22:22] <moop> too many ideas, not enough time to actualise them
[18:22:35] <moop> and I have to go for dinner now
[19:50:02] <LawrenceG> alex_chally, glad it worked out for you
[20:41:06] <Fox_M|afk> Fox_M|afk is now known as Fox_Muldr
[20:45:43] <davidf> hi
[20:46:37] <davidf> Can someone help me with hooking up a pin for a probe please?
[20:48:43] <cradek> where are you stuck specifically?
[20:48:48] <davidf> I thought I might be able to just ground a pin by touching a pad with the tool tip but that doesn't seem to be working
[20:48:53] <davidf> Hi cradek
[20:49:18] <davidf> I have pin 13 in set as motion.probe or whatever...
[20:49:18] <cradek> oh you're not getting a meaningful input from your hardware?
[20:49:40] <davidf> right it seems eratic or else I'm going about it all wrong.
[20:50:26] <cradek> what seems erratic?
[20:51:01] <davidf> I get probe alreadt tripped
[20:51:08] <davidf> errors
[20:51:14] <davidf> but not always.
[20:51:42] <davidf> what is the basic wiring technique foe a probe?
[20:51:49] <cradek> use halmeter to monitor the input. make sure it is false when the probe is not touching and true when it is
[20:52:23] <davidf> First I need to know how to hook up the probe though.
[20:52:51] <davidf> I couldn't find any documentation in the manuals.
[20:52:53] <cradek> there are many ways to hook up a probe. mostly they just act like switches.
[20:53:31] <cradek> sounds like maybe you don't know how to wire up an input, regardless of whether it is probelike in particular?
[20:53:42] <davidf> I put a wired pad on pin 13 with a pull-up R and touched it to the tool tip.
[20:53:53] <davidf> Is that one way?
[20:54:00] <cradek> touched what to the tool tip?
[20:54:06] <davidf> the pad.
[20:54:25] <davidf> basically grounded pin 13 with the tool tip.
[20:54:29] <cradek> ok you have a pullup from pin 13 to (something) and you have a pad hooked to pin 13 that touches the tool
[20:54:42] <cradek> is that right?
[20:54:46] <davidf> right that's one thing I tried.
[20:54:54] <cradek> how is the tool grounded?
[20:54:54] <davidf> I was just guessing
[20:55:31] <davidf> Frame of the machine.
[20:56:05] <cradek> I understand the tool is hooked to the machine. how is the frame of the machine grounded?
[20:56:17] <cradek> you've got to make a reliable circuit for it to work
[20:57:03] <cradek> actually, I wouldn't trust oiled spindle bearings to conduct low current reliably
[20:57:18] <davidf> Right, I tried it once and it seemed to work but probably it isn't a good connection to the digital ground. I'll make sure of that first.
[20:57:42] <davidf> But in general what's a good way to do it?
[20:57:44] <cradek> you're probing tool length?
[20:57:49] <davidf> yes
[20:57:52] <cradek> no, I think it's a terrible way
[20:58:15] <cradek> the main problem with it is you have no overtravel
[20:58:42] <davidf> I'm trying to use you and jepler's pcb milling program and wanted to use the tool length probe code in there.
[20:59:03] <cradek> I suggest poking a switch of some kind with the tool
[20:59:35] <davidf> I was a bit worried about that too.
[20:59:46] <davidf> Esp with tiny end mills.
[21:00:21] <KimK> * KimK wonders why no one has used one of those CNC height gauges (battery and bulb type) with built-in overtravel and opto-coupled it to the probe switch input?
[21:00:22] <cradek> you will break your tiny end mills if you poke a solid object with them
[21:00:51] <cradek> KimK: don't they start at like $75? that'd be why if I had to guess
[21:01:24] <KimK> Yeah, that's a good reason. Plus probably still too stiff for "tiny end mills".
[21:01:44] <cradek> I sure eyed tormach's tool height sensor quite a bit at workshop
[21:02:09] <cradek> the main reason I didn't ask about it was the flat sensing area was about 1/2 or 5/8 diameter - way too small
[21:02:42] <davidf> I am working on optical detectors for home and limits right now. That's why I want to mill the pcb. It's the comparator circuits for the slot detectors.
[21:02:56] <cradek> optical could work for tool lengths too...
[21:02:59] <KimK> Oh, I didn't see that. Too busy I guess. What was it like?
[21:03:41] <cradek> flat on the bottom to sit (or clamp?) on the table, a plunger in the center that looked very flat and probably very hard. led on the side and armored (I think) wire coming from it.
[21:04:19] <davidf> You push the plunger with the tool tip till it trips?
[21:04:35] <cradek> yes
[21:04:53] <cradek> and then it has some more travel available so it gives while you decelerate and stop/reverse
[21:05:36] <KimK> Yes, that was my Q, push until a switch action occurs (like a Renishaw triad switch)? or push until you get electrical conductivity?
[21:05:46] <davidf> My question about how to do this was really meant to be "what wiring scheme do you recommend?"
[21:06:31] <davidf> In general, for the probe pin?
[21:06:34] <cradek> tormach has a picture of it in their (stupid pdf) catalog
[21:06:41] <davidf> :)
[21:06:55] <cradek> davidf: pullup and switch to ground, I guess
[21:07:09] <davidf> OK. pull-up R value?
[21:07:13] <davidf> 10 K?
[21:07:47] <cradek> yeah 1k-10k
[21:07:49] <davidf> Oh, I have a break-out board though. I'll have to check the specs on that anyway.
[21:07:52] <KimK> Yes, I vote pullup too (and a fairly stiff pullup too, if you can manage it.) You can always add a driver transistor if it's pretty stiff. Better noise immunity that way.
[21:08:15] <cradek> diameter of plunger 0.720" (?)
[21:08:24] <davidf> I think I can handle 1 K on the BOB easily.
[21:09:21] <cradek> if I had a tool probe it would be an extremely simple exercise to write gcode that loads all tools in the changer and measures them
[21:10:21] <archivist> cradek I should send you a tool and say probe that!
[21:10:41] <archivist> I do have a cutter in mind though :)
[21:10:43] <cradek> why, do you have an odd one?
[21:10:52] <KimK> Having all three connections is handy. That's why I brought out (on John's BP2) a 3-wire SO cord (didn't have any shielded 3-conductor handy). That way: +5 power (or whatever you choose), probe signal back, and common.
[21:11:01] <archivist> .2 mod gear cutters :)
[21:11:30] <djwez> hi guys is there anyone here who can link me to a site or explain to me how to set up stepgen? im having trouble understanding how to set it up (ive read all the docs but it doesnt really tell me which files im supose to edited)
[21:11:50] <cradek> djwez: ask a more specific question
[21:14:51] <cradek> bbl
[21:15:28] <davidf> djwez, Are you wanting to configure a cnc machine?
[21:16:38] <djwez> you see im trying to set up emc2 to run the motors directly (im useing 3 uln 2803 chips) they are bipolar motors and i was thinking of using either the 8 or 10 step config. im just not really sure where i find the core_stepper file (seen that quite a few people edit that) and how to code it for 4 phases (ive only seen the code for 2 phase). the other thing im battling with is how to tell stepconfig which pins are for which phase
[21:17:05] <djwez> davidf, yes thats basically what im trying to do
[21:17:52] <davidf> that's over my head.
[21:17:56] <davidf> sorry
[21:18:23] <alex_joni> djwez: start with a sample stepper config
[21:18:52] <alex_joni> if you start emc2 you get a config picker, select stepper_mm or stepper_inch
[21:19:00] <alex_joni> and let the config picker make a copy of the config
[21:19:11] <alex_joni> then you'll have the files in ~/emc2/configs/stepper
[21:19:28] <alex_joni> and you can look at the ini (which won't need much changing) and the hal file
[21:19:45] <davidf> bbl
[21:21:18] <djwez> hmm okay thank alex.... thats leading me somewhere.... let me just find an example of the 2 phase bit so that i can tell you whats confusing me
[21:21:45] <alex_joni> ok
[21:22:23] <alex_joni> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/2.4/html//hal_rtcomps.html#sub:Stepgen-Step-Types
[21:24:31] <frallzor> http://forumbilder.se/show.aspx?iid=c72010112055P2296 todays work!
[21:27:26] <djwez> oooh gees just got kicked out
[21:27:56] <alex_joni> djwez: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/2.4/html//hal_rtcomps.html#sub:Stepgen-Step-Types
[21:28:34] <alex_joni> frallzor: motor mounts?
[21:28:49] <frallzor> belt reduction for my beast
[21:29:09] <djwez> so this is what is confusing me this is for a 2 phase motor net Xstep <= stepgen.0.phase-A (next line) net Xdir <= stepgen.0.phase-b . but how would i add the other 2 phases? wpuld it just follow the same pattern
[21:31:03] <djwez> i read through the document a while ago and i think im going to settle for set type 10
[21:32:07] <davidf> OK this is wierd...
[21:32:48] <davidf> I have pin 13 as probe input. Pull up on it to 5 v via 1 K R.
[21:33:11] <davidf> I ground it and can see it trigger in Hal Scope just fine.
[21:33:17] <davidf> But!...
[21:33:51] <JT-Hardinge> Grizzly has a CNC mill on the show room floor!
[21:33:54] <davidf> When I do an MDI g38.2 z0 f15, I get probe already triggered error.
[21:34:32] <dj_wez> sorry guys for somereason internet in south africa is very bad
[21:34:41] <davidf> If I do g 38.4 z0 f15 I get probe already clear error! What gives?
[21:35:28] <davidf> Also, setting pin 13 tio inverted or non inverted in the Hal file makes no difference.
[21:35:37] <davidf> to not tio
[21:36:07] <davidf> KimK, any ideas?
[21:36:08] <dj_wez> what was the location of the files i need to edit?
[21:37:47] <mikegg> are you meaning to do G38.2?
[21:38:16] <davidf> dj_wez, scroll up the page.
[21:38:33] <davidf> mikegg, ideally yes
[21:38:47] <dj_wez> it doesnt show anything:( got disconected
[21:38:54] <mikegg> dj_wez: run emc2 from the applications window and say yes to put a shortcut to the config files on the desktop
[21:39:01] <davidf> oh. just a sec dj_wez
[21:39:01] <mikegg> you can always delete them later
[21:39:59] <mikegg> davidf, how are you picking up the probe signal? you may need a pulldown
[21:39:59] <davidf> dj_wez, ~/emc2/configs/stepper
[21:40:06] <cradek> davidf: copied from earlier: use halmeter to monitor the input. make sure it is false when the probe is not touching and true when it is
[21:40:47] <davidf> cradek, OK will do.
[21:40:59] <davidf> mikegg, I've tried both ways.
[21:41:19] <davidf> pull down works (sort of.) bbl
[21:41:26] <dj_wez> thanks davidf and mikegg (i used the shortcut one.) ill see how far i get then get back to you guys if i need help thanks
[21:46:27] <dj_wez> ok so when i edit the part with "net Xstep <= stepgen.0.step" i change it to "net Xstep <= stepgen.0.0phase-A"? and the then next one instead of "Xstep" i use Xdir"?
[21:50:30] <KimK> dj_wez: Are you sure that's right? I don't claim to be a stepgen expert, but that doesn't seem right to me.
[21:50:33] <djwez> having some serious connection problems
[21:50:35] <djwez> ok so when i edit the part with "net Xstep <= stepgen.0.step" i change it to "net Xstep <= stepgen.0.0phase-A"? and the then next one instead of "Xstep" i use Xdir"?
[21:51:17] <KimK> djwez: I like your choice of "type 10" though, that seems right.
[21:52:24] <djwez> kimk, haha well atleast im on the right track ;)
[21:53:11] <djwez> oh ja and kimk i was just thinking maybe they are all step? not really sure
[21:53:17] <KimK> Wait, these are for 4-phase steppers? How did you come by those?
[21:53:44] <KimK> What kind of motors are you running there?
[21:54:14] <cradek> the name of the net doesn't matter
[21:54:36] <cradek> you might want to read the introductory hal tutorial
[21:55:00] <cradek> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.4/html/hal_basic_hal.html
[21:55:04] <mikegg> at least 6 times :)
[21:55:24] <djwez> 4 phase steppers.... they were not purchased they were given to me. and @ cradek i will give it a read. so it doesnt really matter if i make them all step or all dir?
[21:55:51] <SWPadnos> as long as the names are different
[21:55:55] <djwez> at mikegg i will probly read it more than that but you arnt ment to know this;)
[21:57:12] <djwez> @ SWpadnos, by names you mean which part of it?:?
[21:57:27] <SWPadnos> phone - one sec
[21:58:34] <mikegg> Xstep / Xdir
[21:58:48] <mikegg> doesn't matter what they are, as long as they are different
[21:58:57] <mikegg> call them anything you want
[22:00:08] <djwez> aaah ok. then i guess when i edit the pin out i just have to copy those names over and use the rigth pins for the right phase?
[22:00:10] <SWPadnos> right
[22:00:20] <SWPadnos> you can't call all the X phases "XStep"
[22:00:27] <KimK> djwez: I think you'd want to forget about step and direction and do something more like: net ph4outa <= stepgen.0.phase-a; net ph4outb <= stepgen.0.phase-b; net ph4outc <= stepgen.0.phase-c, net ph4outd <= stepgen.0.phase-d.
[22:00:49] <SWPadnos> you can call them anything unique: "phase1-X", "phase2-X". "Fred", "Wilma"
[22:02:00] <djwez> haha thanks thats what im doing now... at first i thoughtthose might be commands or names linked to the pinout but i see you can edit the pinout as well
[22:05:12] <KimK> John plans to use some 3-phase steppers on his second BP2, but the 3-phases are handled "internally"(?) by the driver so the user just sees step/dir, the 3-phases are unseen by the user. (Except for the "UVW" motor terminals on the drive, lol)
[22:08:22] <KimK> davidf: still thinking about your situation, I don't have any advice beyond cradek's, use halmeter, halshow, etc. I'll let you know if I think of anything else.
[22:09:17] <KimK> * KimK had better read up on G38.4 and G38.2 first
[22:10:43] <djwez> blegh now to figure out all my pins quick:(
[22:11:06] <mikegg> ugh, enclosures are hard
[22:11:17] <KimK> djwez: that's going to be a lot of I/O, what interface system are you using?
[22:11:53] <djwez> by interface systems you mean.....? (sorry new to the whole cnc scene
[22:12:47] <KimK> how are you getting the wiring/signals from the PC to the motors?
[22:14:38] <djwez> i have a simple board with 3 uln2803 chips on it... (not really my design)
[22:15:09] <KimK> Ah, and it attaches to the parallel port?
[22:15:20] <djwez> its a db25 connection (ja parallel
[22:15:50] <djwez> but atm its just the axis motors nothing else
[22:15:56] <djwez> oh and limits
[22:18:29] <davidf> cradek, KimK Thanks. Doh. This did the trick: net probe.in <= parport.0.pin-13-in-not --- Forgot to do that!
[22:18:38] <davidf> Thanks.
[22:19:07] <KimK> djwez: OK. Well, I was just thinking that's twice as many motor signals as usual, leaving you with fewer pins for other stuff. (Unless he's developing the 4-phases on the PCB from step/dir? What does the manual say?)
[22:19:32] <davidf> Now it is false when high, true when tool tip grounds the probe pad.
[22:20:59] <djwez> kimK no manual.. its a diy controller (if it can even be called that.. wait...theres a guide on how to build diy cncs with basically the same layout as my board ill look for it quick
[22:22:33] <KimK> davidf: Congratulations! Glad you got it. Enjoy. (BTW, I added a PyVCP probe "test" button to "force" things, just in case needed.)
[22:22:54] <davidf> djwez, You're wanting to generate the coil waveforms directly, not step and direction, is that it?
[22:23:03] <djwez> oh ja and like you said. there are no more pins for anything else:) lol if i decide to add a spindle and water coolant ill fetch a addon card and make a new board for the spindle and extra stuff
[22:23:15] <davidf> KimK, Thanks. Didn't understand that last...?
[22:23:45] <djwez> @davidf ja thats basically what i want. the pc to generate the phases. hence step type 10
[22:24:35] <davidf> I wrote a program in Visual Basic to do that under windows OS. It worked pretty well actually.
[22:25:38] <davidf> KimK, What was that about the PyVCP button?
[22:26:15] <djwez> problem is. i dont have a windows xp disc. and linux runs nicely on this old pc ive rebuilt for my garage (i would use my current setup as it should give excelent output, ive got phenom II 720)
[22:26:55] <KimK> djwez: Now if your board builder uses the usual step/dir on the board and generates the 4-phases on-board, that would be a different situation. That was why I was asking about the manual.
[22:27:28] <djwez> lol i understand... this is basically my board layout http://www.instructables.com/image/FG5FF7OFROA0M4W/Soldering.jpg
[22:27:36] <SWPadnos> have you run the latency test on your phenom machine?
[22:27:52] <SWPadnos> faster CPUs don't always make better realtime controllers
[22:29:07] <davidf> SWPadnos, Hi! Just wanted to let you know that AMT encoder you suggested works fabulously well. I'm cutting Purrrrrfect threads now! Thanks a lot!
[22:29:15] <SWPadnos> excellent
[22:30:14] <djwez> actually no... i run windows 7 on it as i use it for gaming (yeah lots of hobbies hey?) ja i know it depends on alot of things but if you think about it faster cpu can procces slightly more... only downside is im running it as a quad core and i doubt it would get used to its full potentiual.... but anyways back to my recoding
[22:31:03] <SWPadnos> speed and latency are independent variables :)
[22:31:05] <davidf> Back at it... Thanks everyone.
[22:31:40] <SWPadnos> and "low latency" means something very different when you're trying to generate several thousand steps per second, vs. several hundred (or fewer) frames per second
[22:33:09] <djwez> hahaha i agree fps means nothing when you are looking at steps;)
[22:33:41] <SWPadnos> I'll have to see what the latency test does on the new PC I'm building
[22:33:51] <djwez> what are the specs?
[22:34:16] <SWPadnos> Phenom 2 1090T, 16GB RAM, GTX 480, 2TB hard drive, 890FX motherboard ...
[22:34:35] <SWPadnos> 6-core, of course
[22:35:05] <mikegg> whew
[22:35:18] <SWPadnos> yeah, managed to spend $3k including monitors
[22:35:43] <SWPadnos> (with printer and UPS though)
[22:36:01] <mikegg> CAD workstation? or just for kicks?
[22:36:07] <SWPadnos> for my mother
[22:36:15] <djwez> wow something id love to see!!!... lol read that as R3k (ZAR) and i was like WT..... haha ...
[22:36:19] <mikegg> you've got to be kidding
[22:36:21] <SWPadnos> to do scientific computing on
[22:36:58] <djwez> yoh.... not surprized hey
[22:37:18] <SWPadnos> she's getting a heck of an upgrade, her current PC is a Pentium 133 I think, and the new hard drive has as much memory as her current computer
[22:39:02] <Valen> what sort of computing?
[22:39:08] <Valen> she cant use CUDA?
[22:39:28] <SWPadnos> dunno yet - she'll figure out some problems to work on
[22:39:39] <SWPadnos> and yes, she will use CUDA, hence the GTX480
[22:39:46] <Valen> oh didn't see that
[22:39:52] <Valen> only one? lol
[22:39:57] <SWPadnos> heh
[22:40:06] <djwez> think he is talking about sli
[22:40:14] <SWPadnos> we'd need to rewire her house to put in multiples ;)
[22:40:22] <Valen> lol
[22:40:35] <Valen> what OS?
[22:40:39] <SWPadnos> the motherboard can handle 3 or so though, so if she really needs the processing speed (NOT!), we can do it
[22:40:46] <SWPadnos> Ubuntu 10.04
[22:40:52] <Valen> nifty
[22:41:01] <djwez> and possiblely rewire the db board:P
[22:41:02] <Valen> 64bit works well there
[22:41:04] <SWPadnos> yeah. unless some other distro has easier CUDA/driver install
[22:41:07] <Valen> (i'm using it)
[22:41:08] <SWPadnos> heh, yeah
[22:41:17] <SWPadnos> with 16GB it'll be necessary
[22:41:22] <SWPadnos> and she could care less about flash
[22:41:28] <Valen> it works fine
[22:41:38] <Valen> i use 64bit 10.04 for my desktop
[22:41:41] <SWPadnos> works for me too, but you never know :)
[22:41:50] <SWPadnos> me too, on my new laptop anyway
[22:42:02] <SWPadnos> and my wife and sister have 10.04 on their desktops
[22:42:08] <Valen> there is a native flash client now, so we are almost first class citicens
[22:42:36] <SWPadnos> I thought they didn't make a 10.1/Linux 64-bit client
[22:42:44] <SWPadnos> or it's still beta or something
[22:42:55] <Valen> its a beta or something
[22:43:27] <KimK> davidf: On the PyVCP button, here's the PyVCP additions I did for John's BP2: http://imagebin.ca/view/sfeWxnv.html The gear/speed change buttons and LEDs were a nice 5-wide in two rows, and I had 4 more for clamp-unclamp. So I was looking for one more item of button/LED pair that I could put in to fill out the row. And viola, it was probe input and probe test.
[22:44:08] <Valen> KimK: sexy looking
[22:44:23] <Valen> SWPadnos: your water cooling it right?
[22:44:30] <Valen> any reason for amd over intel?
[22:44:47] <djwez> amd is slightly cheaper atm?
[22:44:50] <SWPadnos> Valen, no, not water cooled, but I did strongly consider it
[22:45:03] <Valen> I specced out a box for a friend with 2x 9800's in it and a nice big quad core, he cant sleep in the same room as it
[22:45:17] <SWPadnos> the overall AMD system should be faster for the price, though a 980X would be faster at ~$1000 more
[22:45:28] <Valen> which is a pain for him as he runs long renders overnight
[22:45:33] <SWPadnos> she'll either enjoy the fan sound or turn it off at night
[22:46:04] <Valen> he's going to put water cooling on it ;->
[22:46:27] <mikegg> Coolit makes some slick water cooling setups
[22:46:33] <Valen> which brings us back on topic as he wants us to CnC the water blocks out for him lol
[22:46:35] <SWPadnos> I considered it more because she has cats, not because of noise
[22:46:56] <SWPadnos> heh, that's why I originally got involved with CNC and EMC actually :)
[22:46:58] <Fox_Muldr> Fox_Muldr is now known as Fox_M|afk
[22:47:10] <Valen> probably wouldn't make much of a different unless you use one of those giant passive radiators
[22:47:29] <SWPadnos> yeah
[22:47:41] <Valen> my desktop is a dual core atom + ion atm lol
[22:47:48] <djwez> ok guys should i code my limmit/home pins for limmits or home switches (im guessing if i make them limmit switches i can make emc2 register them as home aswell?)
[22:47:59] <mikegg> ....i dunno. We've done some testing with the Coolit ECO II. It's active all the way around and whisper quiet
[22:48:13] <SWPadnos> I expect her to use the multi-core CPU only to get used to parallel programming, on the way to massively parallel CUDA stuff
[22:48:15] <Valen> mikegg: the problem is fur in the fans
[22:48:25] <SWPadnos> heh, yep :)
[22:48:25] <Valen> your mum is officially cool btw
[22:48:37] <SWPadnos> it's hard to find a case that doesn't have any cooling ports on top these days
[22:48:40] <Valen> stick some pre-filters on, call it done
[22:48:42] <SWPadnos> or extra holes on the sides
[22:48:58] <Valen> cats would love a nice warm top mounted cooling fan set
[22:48:59] <mikegg> heh, shave the cats! problem solved
[22:49:14] <SWPadnos> hmmm. I won't repeat that to her ;)
[22:50:44] <mikegg> actually, a friend of mine has a shaggy cat. who is normally really skidish and self absorbed
[22:50:59] <mikegg> when he gets her pruned she gets really friendly and outgoing
[22:52:06] <Valen> your going to need some potent case fans
[22:52:44] <KimK> djwez: How big are your steppers and machine? What are you going to cut? How accurately do you need/want to home? Is it a mill/lathe with fixturing/tooling that you have to return to? Or is it a router where you throw in a sheet of plywood, run it, and you're done, set up fresh every time (home not so important)?
[22:52:45] <SWPadnos> it's a nice Lian-Li case - huge and Aluminum
[22:53:13] <SWPadnos> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811112244
[22:55:17] <djwez> kimK its a mill. they arnt very big steppers hey its a diy cnc mill just to get into the whole cnc scene. im actually not sure what im going to cut or how acurite it will/must be.
[22:56:41] <SWPadnos> bbl
[22:57:35] <Jymmm> what
[22:58:09] <djwez> ag damn something went wrong with my code.... emc crashes when i try run the profile...
[23:00:25] <KimK> djwez: OK. A tabletop mill with steppers and no encoders? If you don't have any switches at all yet, I'd add home switches and soft limits and call it good. But that's just me. And if you're on a parallel port, you're probably limited on I/O, so I'd use shared home sws to save inputs.
[23:02:24] <djwez> is there no way to configure your home and limmits as one switch? (i mean one switch per axis) my uncle has a machine set up that works that way........ it homes and it also has limmits
[23:02:30] <KimK> So when you push "home all" it will home one-at-a-time. You could compromise and use two inputs, home Z by itself and share home on X and Y. That way "home all" will raise Z first (as before) but then X & Y can home at the same time. That's a little bit faster.
[23:03:42] <djwez> was thinking about that.... but if i edit the code and put the switches under home will they also act as limmits?
[23:04:22] <djwez> so i have home x y and z not shared
[23:05:47] <Jymmm> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/tls/1821475856.html
[23:05:53] <KimK> Yes, you can share home and limit sws, but IMHO it's more trouble than it's worth. My first choice is always three seperate switches, but on small steppers, particularly with all-thread screws, I say dump the two limit switches. Just my opinion. On servo sytems with ballscrews though ($$$) you want all three switches if you can.
[23:07:22] <Jymmm> $3600 BP http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/tls/1821400533.html
[23:07:39] <djwez> i can understand that... those ballscrews arnt cheap... hahaha! ill think about it all tommorow (wait today) im going to get some sleep before the sun comes out (its 10 past 1 here)
[23:07:44] <KimK> EMC2 has very nice soft limits, easily configurable on each axis, so get a good home first and use soft limits, I say.
[23:08:08] <KimK> djwez: OK, goodnight, see you later
[23:08:12] <djwez> thanks for all kimK and everyone else enjoy your day
[23:08:17] <djwez> or night
[23:08:27] <KimK> haha, about suppertime here
[23:17:27] <JT-Hardinge> hmm, I can't find the exact meaning of "Very Accurate" anywhere
[23:18:11] <JT-Hardinge> my .223 is "Very Accurate"... my Hardinge is "Very Accurate" lol
[23:18:35] <ds2> heh... is that a metric .223? ;)
[23:18:52] <JT-Hardinge> the cross slide table looks much better than anything I saw in Harbor Freight today
[23:19:01] <JT-Hardinge> it could be yes
[23:19:35] <JT-Hardinge> 5.66mm
[23:20:03] <ds2> HF == kit of slightly machined bare castings ;)
[23:20:44] <JT-Hardinge> you got that right, in fact today was my first experience of going into a HF store
[23:21:13] <ds2> some even come with a free sand for your inspection ;)
[23:25:29] <KimK> ds2: LOL, I would nominate that for "classic comments" on the wiki, very funny. But we probably shouldn't slap HF around, they're OK for what they are. And we (the public) seem to keep buying things from them.
[23:26:24] <ds2> KimK: it is a matter of expectations... I think the guy who runs 7x10minilathe.com said something similar
[23:26:46] <ds2> I buy stuff from them with that expectation and I haven't been too disappointed
[23:28:24] <MattyMatt> all machine tools are a kit of parts anyway. no point tuning it too fine before trucking it
[23:30:03] <MattyMatt> a british firm selling chinese lathes charge about 100 quid for "ready to use" service. It's nice to have the choice
[23:30:26] <KimK> Someone here posted a link to a guy's project about completely re-doing a Chinese vise (what, $50-100?) to make it more like a Kurt/Chick vise (what, $500?). He did about $300-400 worth of work on it and ended up with a vise that was worth maybe $200-250? Very interesting as a project, though. I don't have the link, maybe somebody else does.
[23:30:28] <ds2> some of us find that part of it somewhat enjoyable
[23:34:04] <mikegg> heh, either that or spend time with the wifey...I'll take the vise
[23:34:36] <MattyMatt> probably the first time is most enjoyable, or the second when you know what you're doing but not sick of it yet :)
[23:34:38] <JT-Hardinge> I try and split my time between my wife and my vise
[23:35:28] <MattyMatt> ^me talking about toolmaking, not wifeys
[23:37:35] <MattyMatt> I've added a new potential wife to my list. katarina on Thingiverse designs gearboxes
[23:39:40] <MattyMatt> kylie minogue looked best with a spanner in her hand and an oil smudge on her cheek, but that was a fictional character
[23:40:49] <MattyMatt> dunno if I could live with her as an actress/singer/dancer/showgirl/underwear model
[23:43:17] <MattyMatt> I'm trying to convince my sis to stop making silver jewellry and learn the art of grinding TC tools. She'd make a fine wife for a machinist then
[23:44:12] <MattyMatt> bleh even russian women are too fluffy these days
[23:45:05] <MattyMatt> except katarina on Thingiverse :) she doen't make them in steel tho, she prints them in plastic
[23:49:11] <JT-Hardinge> OH but wait I get to use M8 now :P
[23:49:28] <KimK> I haven't seen Katarina on Thingiverse. But Wikipedia says Kylie Minogue is a real person (actress). Are you thinking of Kaylee Frye (Jewel Staite) on Firefly? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewel_Staite
[23:50:12] <MattyMatt> yep kylie is real, but her character on the soap she started on was a car mechanic called Charlene
[23:50:36] <KimK> Oh, OK, maybe that wasn't well known in the US.
[23:51:07] <MattyMatt> she was barely known in US until her last couple of big tours before she got ill
[23:52:00] <MattyMatt> but in the UK, at her height, kylie had become the 6th most common girls name for christenings
[23:52:26] <MattyMatt> there are 100,000 kylies in England now, thanks to her
[23:53:48] <MattyMatt> I'm not sure if she's even as famous in Australia as she is here
[23:54:22] <MattyMatt> the soap she was in was a joke there, but really popular here
[23:55:27] <MattyMatt> because everyone in it was so cheerful. they weren't murdering each other all the time like in british soaps
[23:56:28] <KimK> "Colonel Mustard in the library with the candlestick!", lol