#emc | Logs for 2010-06-14

[00:26:09] <archivist> cradek, the impossible hexagonal or octagonal nut design http://www.adjustable.archivist.info/patents/GB196177A.pdf
[01:22:00] <madsci42> anyone here have some familliarity with the python code for axis?
[01:22:48] <SWPadnos> a little, what is the real question?
[01:24:23] <madsci42> hmm how to phrase it
[01:24:37] <madsci42> im goofing around with trying to add my own buttons in the manual tab
[01:24:59] <madsci42> using homebutton as an example (i am not experienced in python so im fumbling through)
[01:25:10] <SWPadnos> as I would :)
[01:25:30] <madsci42> where it defines the object homebutton (i presume) theres a line like ("homebutton", Button, tabs_manual + ".jogf.zerohome.home"),
[01:26:08] <madsci42> im figuring tabs_manual is saying which tab to put it in, and ".jogf.zerohome.home" is like an object group/container?
[01:26:33] <SWPadnos> I'm thinking that's the actual name of the button. lemme look at the code
[01:27:54] <madsci42> so its adding home i think to the zerohome container is fuzilly how i imagine it but i cant find where jogf or jogf.zerohome are defined or instantiated
[01:29:47] <madsci42> (i feel like a lost tourist asking for directions in china )
[01:30:23] <SWPadnos> here's what I think. (jepler or someone else much much much much more familiar with (a) AXIS and (b) python may correct me later :) )
[01:30:39] <SWPadnos> the user interface is mostly in TCL, which is very text-based
[01:31:18] <SWPadnos> it's possible that TCL treats things with words.separated.by.dots specially, so you could treat those items like a tree
[01:31:47] <SWPadnos> and manipulate a whole subtree by naming fewer.dotted.words
[01:32:06] <madsci42> actually thats a good point - its in quotes - so maybe thats the deal there
[01:32:12] <SWPadnos> right
[01:32:41] <SWPadnos> and tabs_manual was set to a string above
[01:33:08] <SWPadnos> so I think it's a big string describing a leaf node, but with a full path
[01:33:12] <SWPadnos> (sort of)
[01:33:56] <SWPadnos> yeah, look at how widgets.spindlef is used
[01:34:39] <SWPadnos> several things connected with that "parent tree", and at line 3118, "forget(widgets.spindlef, "motion.spindle-forward", "motion.spindle-reverse", " ...
[01:35:40] <madsci42> so its import from another file i guess
[01:35:48] <SWPadnos> no
[01:36:31] <SWPadnos> I think it's just a grouping
[01:37:06] <madsci42> well i tried making my own grouping
[01:37:12] <SWPadnos> so if you have a button that e.g. sets the spindle speed to 1000, you might want to use the spindlef prefix, so your button would disappear in a config that has no spindle control
[01:37:18] <madsci42> like instead of jogf for example and it didnt work
[01:37:39] <madsci42> oh
[01:38:07] <madsci42> like a functional grouping
[01:38:09] <SWPadnos> jogf seems weird to me, since I only see that text in 3 or 4 places in the code
[01:38:12] <madsci42> more so than visual
[01:38:19] <SWPadnos> kinda sorta, yeah maybe
[01:38:25] <madsci42> right
[01:38:55] <madsci42> but since i couldnt find any other reference to jogf im thinking its coming from another source file
[01:39:06] <SWPadnos> can you stick a snippet of what you wrote on http://pastebin.ca ?
[01:39:17] <SWPadnos> something that didn't work
[01:39:23] <SWPadnos> (but you think should have)
[01:39:45] <madsci42> well actually i added a button that works
[01:39:55] <SWPadnos> using .jogf ?
[01:40:03] <madsci42> but i was trying to figure how to locate it elsewhere
[01:42:03] <madsci42> yeah i made ("zerobutton", Button, tabs_manual + ".jogf.zerohome.zero")
[01:42:26] <madsci42> i added a routine for it and it works
[01:42:42] <madsci42> it puts it in the tab exactly beside the home all button
[01:43:19] <madsci42> and my thinking is that its located there because its a member of, or leaf of , .jogf.zerohome
[01:43:33] <madsci42> or child
[01:43:34] <madsci42> hah
[01:43:44] <SWPadnos> yeah, something like that
[01:50:02] <madsci42> the widget is just this http://pastebin.ca
[01:50:04] <madsci42> oops
[01:50:22] <madsci42> this sorry: http://pastebin.ca/1882611
[01:50:44] <madsci42> i included the code above it for context
[01:51:17] <madsci42> that part defines the command name
[01:54:00] <SWPadnos> right, so it'll call "setzero_xy" when pressed, and also provide "tooltip" help
[01:54:46] <madsci42> ..and... (watining for pastebin) the function associated with the widget is here; http://pastebin.ca/1882613 (i hope)
[01:55:10] <madsci42> in that part is the little setzero_xy routine
[01:56:34] <SWPadnos> I must admit, I don't fully understand how those widgets are created, and how their positions are set
[01:56:40] <madsci42> i probably dont need the c.wait_complete() since it doesnt take long but maybe safer
[01:57:11] <SWPadnos> I would have thought it was pretty automatic, but that should allow you to use some other words (ratherthan jogf) if you wanted to
[01:57:31] <SWPadnos> one question though, did you remember the "." in front of the other word you used?
[01:57:51] <SWPadnos> it's blahblah + ".jogf.<etc>"
[01:58:19] <madsci42> yes
[01:58:36] <madsci42> you mean like the . preceeding .jogf? yeah
[01:58:46] <SWPadnos> ok, then I'm out of ideas, and you'll have to wait for a real expert to notice this conversation :)
[01:58:48] <SWPadnos> yes
[02:02:01] <madsci42> oh hey - import bwidget, and "from minigl import *
[02:02:18] <madsci42> maybe its in minigl somewhere
[02:02:24] <madsci42> no wait thats gl not mini
[02:02:33] <SWPadnos> nope, right
[02:02:43] <SWPadnos> smaller GL library
[02:02:48] <SWPadnos> = mini GL
[02:03:34] <pfred1> seems like a good topic for the dev mailing list maybe?
[02:03:54] <pfred1> is there an EMC dev howto or manual or anything like that?
[02:04:24] <SWPadnos> if cradek or jepler were here, it would have been a 2 minute answer, but since it's just us chickens at the moment, it's a lot harder :)
[02:05:05] <pfred1> I was never any good at programming
[02:05:24] <madsci42> yeah - i dont mind trying to figure it out tho - and im afraid to wake the gods anyway hah
[02:05:47] <SWPadnos> one or more may notice the conversation in their logs and answer (or not)
[02:05:57] <madsci42> yeah
[02:07:48] <elmo40> http://www.electro-tech-online.com/
[02:09:58] <SWPadnos> night all
[02:10:12] <pfred1> nite
[02:14:08] <madsci42> axis.tcl
[02:14:09] <madsci42> gnite
[02:14:18] <madsci42> thanx eh
[02:15:07] <pfred1> the harder something is to do the more you learn from it
[02:15:22] <madsci42> yeah thats kinda why i enjoy digging
[02:15:27] <madsci42> in this case at least
[02:15:49] <madsci42> its good when is something you want to understand better - or moreso when you have time hah
[02:17:20] <madsci42> its in axis.tcl - that file defines the containers for the gui objects
[02:19:27] <madsci42> now maybe i can add a container in $_tabs_manual so my zero_xy button doesnt hose the touch off button :-/
[02:24:01] <madsci42> idnno if i would post about itto devel mailing list tho
[02:24:13] <madsci42> i mean they are busy and im just experimeting and figuing stuff out
[02:24:17] <SWPadnos> hey, still here
[02:24:20] <SWPadnos> glad you found it
[02:24:24] <madsci42> yeah! :)
[02:24:41] <SWPadnos> I thought there was an axis.tcl file, but I couldn't find it, so I didn't bother mentioning it
[02:25:00] <SWPadnos> (I'm on a Windows machine without the source, so I was using gitweb, which isn't so great for searches)
[02:25:13] <madsci42> the widgets are layed out in that file - its in emc2-dev/share/axis/tcl
[02:25:43] <SWPadnos> ah, share/axis/tcl, not bin/, scripts/, tcl/, tcl/bin/ ... :)
[02:25:52] <madsci42> ..or lib
[02:25:56] <madsci42> heeh
[02:26:00] <SWPadnos> or src/* :)
[02:27:06] <madsci42> generally speakig tho - compared to other projects ive seen, and considering the mix of languages and toolkits, they have done well at keeping things clean
[02:27:49] <SWPadnos> yeah, there's an organization to the files, it's just got a steep learning curve
[02:28:35] <madsci42> yeah
[02:29:00] <SWPadnos> there are several separate projects incorporated into one (HAL, RCS/NML, RS274NGC, etc) and some things should go in more than one place
[02:29:07] <madsci42> well these days everything seems to have that - libraries on top of libraries and so on
[02:29:16] <SWPadnos> yep
[02:30:11] <madsci42> i was trying to get a handle once on the trajectory planner, an stepgen
[02:30:46] <madsci42> i wanted to understand how it lays out the path to anticipate the timing so that it knows where to start slowing down so that it might stop without overshooting
[02:31:20] <madsci42> i thought it would take all day? now i think it will take a couple weeks
[02:31:23] <SWPadnos> it's only in the TP, stepgen doesn't really have anything to do it
[02:31:42] <SWPadnos> I think the function os tp_run_cycle
[02:31:43] <SWPadnos> is
[02:31:52] <madsci42> yeah but i thought stepgen would yeild clues on the timing
[02:31:59] <SWPadnos> nope
[02:32:17] <SWPadnos> step generation was an add-on, the original motion controller only worked for servos
[02:32:39] <madsci42> yeah i have alot of reading/referencing to do
[02:32:43] <SWPadnos> it used accel and vel limits, and there was an external (hardware, DSP) servo controller
[02:33:00] <SWPadnos> also I/O ran on a separate CPU board on the same backplane
[02:33:02] <madsci42> so maybe its like all based on pid methodology?
[02:33:17] <SWPadnos> which is one reason that the IO controller and motion controller have separate communications channels
[02:33:36] <SWPadnos> no, TP outputs positions that comply with accel and vel limits set by the user
[02:34:00] <SWPadnos> then "something else" makes sure those positions get hit - stepgen, PID+(PWM or analog output), whatever
[02:34:20] <madsci42> so like discrete points along the path?
[02:34:42] <madsci42> is there some big array of positions?
[02:35:00] <SWPadnos> the positions are calculated in realtime, taking into account the instantaneous values of feed override, etc.
[02:35:37] <SWPadnos> there is no array, but you could make one with halsampler/halstreamer (sample position commands every millisecond and stream them to disk)
[02:35:55] <madsci42> oh hey i like that idea
[02:36:26] <SWPadnos> but remember that those positions take into account the acceleration settings, so the path may be different if (a) the feed rate changes or (b) you run the same program on a machine that has different acceleration
[02:36:41] <SWPadnos> or (c) feedrate override changes, or (d) something else is different ;)
[02:36:43] <madsci42> so if they are done in realtime - there has to be some lookahed to start deceleration before a stop or direction change tho right?
[02:37:10] <SWPadnos> the TP will never run the machine so fast that it can't stop by the end of the next segment
[02:37:41] <SWPadnos> so if you have a program with 10000 moves of 0.0001 inch each, the overall speed will be lower than if you had a single move of 1 inch
[02:38:13] <SWPadnos> there are some ways around this, but the limitation is still there - you can't "overdrive your headlights"
[02:38:29] <pfred1> oh yeah?
[02:38:45] <madsci42> * madsci42 puts on his shades
[02:38:47] <SWPadnos> in EMC that is, I don't know how you drive
[02:39:36] <madsci42> pfred's neighbours build pumpkinhowitzers for a hobby so im not taking chances when he says "oh yeah?"
[02:40:59] <madsci42> im not sure i follow what you mean tho - like if they are consecutive G1 commands moving .0001 it will still respect the feedrate
[02:41:22] <madsci42> cause it aggregates them in to one "move" i guess so to speak
[02:41:40] <madsci42> but in order to stop at the end of that inch - it has to start slowing down before it gets there
[02:42:00] <SWPadnos> there is a mode (G64Pxx) that will attempt to aggregate many smaller moves into fewer longer moves
[02:42:21] <SWPadnos> but that's actually done before the motion controller gets hold of the motion commands
[02:42:29] <SWPadnos> and results in a single longer command being sent
[02:42:36] <SWPadnos> that does give you higher feed rates
[02:43:11] <SWPadnos> but if you turn that mode off, then the top speed will be lower, because the motion controller will not go so fast that it can't stop at the end of the move
[02:43:26] <madsci42> the tolerance setting yeah - that does speed things up because it can move a bit sloppier so it doesnt have to hit the exact acceleration/position values
[02:43:35] <SWPadnos> I don't know if that's the executing move or the next one in the queue - both are considered at once for blending purposes
[02:43:42] <madsci42> like smoothing a bunch of line segments into a curve
[02:44:12] <SWPadnos> well, it's not a slop factor in the motor positioning system (PID/stepgen), it's a tolerance for rounding corners or aggregating minor zig-zags into straight lines
[02:44:28] <SWPadnos> it will not make a lot of straight segments into a curve
[02:44:50] <madsci42> right - thats what i mean - excuse my linguistic slop factor :-)
[02:44:51] <SWPadnos> it will make a lot of straight line segments into fewer ones that approximate a curve slightly worse
[02:44:57] <SWPadnos> ok, sure :)
[02:46:43] <madsci42> so ok - if it was doing some linear move lets say - a simple straight line
[02:46:59] <madsci42> single joint and axis
[02:47:53] <madsci42> four inches travel point a to point b and say it takes a half inch travel to accelerate to the feedrate, and a half inch travel to decelerate from the feedrate to zero
[02:49:01] <madsci42> it has to know by the time it travels to the 3.5 inch point that it has to start slowing down
[02:49:15] <madsci42> so that it can hit zero velocity by the time it gets to the 4 inch point right?
[02:49:24] <SWPadnos> ok, sure
[02:49:55] <madsci42> so it has to look ahead in time somehow even if its outputting the data for the 3.5 inch point
[02:50:03] <SWPadnos> of course
[02:50:08] <madsci42> especially if those limits have to be coordinated with other joints
[02:50:19] <SWPadnos> yep
[02:50:35] <SWPadnos> like not stopping at the 4 inch point, but taking off in a different direction
[02:51:11] <madsci42> or stopping on that axis but another axis has to zig somewhere
[02:51:20] <SWPadnos> sure
[02:51:24] <madsci42> so that the net vector is correct
[02:51:46] <SWPadnos> and to make it more complex, the user can fiddle with feed override, setting it above 100%, during the move
[02:52:08] <madsci42> so i can only imagine two ways (in my limited understanding) there has to be some complicated 3d equation that lets you do it in realtime
[02:52:35] <SWPadnos> I guess we use option 2
[02:52:36] <pfred1> can you feed underride?
[02:52:38] <madsci42> or it has to break the move down into positions that get stored and back calculated
[02:52:39] <SWPadnos> yes
[02:52:48] <SWPadnos> madsci42, or option 3
[02:53:15] <SWPadnos> which is several simple equations, one for each axis, with the most restrictive one "taking control"
[02:53:19] <madsci42> hmm good point - during the move
[02:53:42] <madsci42> yeah whichever is most limited right -
[02:53:51] <SWPadnos> you can always calculate the stopping distance in closed form
[02:54:04] <SWPadnos> from the current velocity and the accel limit
[02:54:18] <SWPadnos> it's like 3 multiplies and a couple of adds
[02:54:23] <SWPadnos> not much time at all
[02:55:14] <SWPadnos> alternatively, you can calculate how fast you could be going now, while still being able to stop at the end of the move
[02:55:23] <SWPadnos> I think there's a square root in that one :)
[02:55:30] <madsci42> hehe
[02:55:58] <SWPadnos> if the "max allowable speed" is lower than the current speed for this joint, then you set a variable to the ratio of the two
[02:56:27] <SWPadnos> you do this for all joints, and then use the lowest ratio and multiply all joint speeds by that
[02:56:39] <SWPadnos> (more or less, in a nutshell, AFAIK)
[02:57:20] <SWPadnos> the bottom line is, you can decompose the problem into many simple linear problems, it's not a big 3D (9-D actually) problem
[02:57:34] <madsci42> yeah i can understand all those things
[02:57:49] <SWPadnos> the complexity comes in when you have joints that aren't axes, ie nontrivial kinematics
[02:57:53] <madsci42> what im curious is how emc implements it i guess is what im wanting to learn
[02:57:57] <SWPadnos> and it doesn't really work for all those yet
[02:58:07] <madsci42> right like arms and such
[02:58:12] <SWPadnos> yeah, looking at the code will teach you, but it's not the easiest way to learn
[02:58:14] <SWPadnos> right
[02:58:23] <SWPadnos> or hexapods, for example
[02:58:44] <madsci42> yeah
[02:58:45] <SWPadnos> arms are also funny beasts, since they should have different accel/vel limits depending on the current radius
[02:59:04] <madsci42> like i have made my own crude little trajectory planners
[02:59:33] <SWPadnos> that starts to make my brain hurt - calculating accel/vel limits based on position, and still trying to make sure you can always stop in time ...
[02:59:37] <madsci42> in microcontrollers, and in c and so on
[02:59:45] <SWPadnos> cool
[03:00:03] <madsci42> so i have ideas of how it might be done but not how emc does it :)
[03:00:09] <SWPadnos> ah, ok
[03:00:19] <SWPadnos> it did seem like that was a third option though ;)
[03:00:30] <SWPadnos> now it is time for bed. good night
[03:00:31] <madsci42> :) yup
[03:00:38] <ds3> Hmmm
[03:00:43] <madsci42> gnite thanx for the convo!
[03:00:49] <SWPadnos> sure
[03:01:05] <ds3> so when will EMC have the ability to slice a IGES file and have it 3D printed? :D
[03:01:41] <pfred1> ds3 when you get done coding it of course
[03:01:47] <ds3> hehehe
[03:02:04] <ds3> seems everywhere you turn,you see someone talking about 3d printers
[03:02:43] <pfred1> I'm more into the subtractive than the additive when it comes to making things
[03:02:50] <drray> I worry about that actually, because as soon as you have 3D printers then you'll have EULA for parts
[03:02:51] <Endeavour> Hello
[03:02:51] <Jymmm> ds3: it's cheap to make
[03:03:09] <ds3> Jymmm: I'd argue a CNC lathe or a mill is cheaper to make
[03:03:18] <Endeavour> ds3: 3D printing, you say?
[03:03:21] <ds3> getting the extruder head right can be $$$
[03:03:25] <Endeavour> I know a thing or two about that.
[03:03:25] <Jymmm> you have to have either first
[03:04:01] <ds3> Endeavour: yes... seems like everyone and their dog is either writing about it or building one with loose tolerances
[03:04:20] <Endeavour> ds3: Yes. Problem is most 3D printers are bad.
[03:04:31] <Endeavour> Most non-commercial DIY ones, anyway.
[03:04:36] <Endeavour> I don't like that.
[03:04:40] <Endeavour> That's why I'm here.
[03:04:50] <pfred1> I would think most 3D printing media would be the weak link
[03:05:02] <Endeavour> Define media, pfred1
[03:05:10] <Jymmm> SUGAR!
[03:05:14] <pfred1> the hot glue the printers spit out
[03:05:15] <drray> STARCH
[03:05:32] <Endeavour> pfred1: That's very easy.
[03:05:41] <Jymmm> starch?
[03:05:46] <pcw_home> Hotmelt glue
[03:05:50] <Endeavour> No.
[03:05:52] <Jymmm> sucks
[03:05:53] <pfred1> I didn't say it wasn't just that I doubt it is very good is all
[03:05:55] <morfic> you seem to talk about a different kind of 3D printing, if it involves hotglue
[03:05:57] <Endeavour> Polylactic Acid.
[03:05:59] <madsci42> theres also the UV curing stuff
[03:06:15] <Endeavour> It's not bad, pfred1.
[03:06:16] <madsci42> using lasers to solidify it selectively
[03:06:28] <Endeavour> People print Polylactic Acid and ABS routinely. Both are good.
[03:06:51] <ds3> Endeavor: were you at Maker faire?
[03:06:55] <Endeavour> I was.
[03:07:01] <Endeavour> Were you?
[03:07:13] <ds3> Endeavour: and you were showing off your EMC powered one with the brass gear extruder thingie?
[03:07:16] <ds3> yes, I was
[03:07:22] <Endeavour> No, that wasn't me.
[03:07:30] <ds3> were you an exhibitor?
[03:07:33] <Endeavour> I was.
[03:07:53] <ds3> AFAIK, there was only 1 exhibitor using EMC
[03:07:56] <Endeavour> Murphy kind of attacked me and I wasn't able to get everything from Texas to San Francisco like I wanted.
[03:08:02] <Endeavour> So all I had was parts.
[03:08:15] <ds3> Ohhh, you didn't have an entire machine there?
[03:08:18] <Endeavour> No.
[03:08:30] <Endeavour> I was the one with the banner and molded plastic parts.
[03:08:43] <Endeavour> Next to the guy with the acrylic MakerBots.
[03:09:11] <ds3> was this the side with the pyramid shaped reprap?
[03:09:25] <ds3> I think I might have talked to you if you are the EMC guy there
[03:09:53] <Endeavour> No, I found out about EMC at Maker Faire.
[03:09:59] <ds3> ah
[03:10:00] <Endeavour> From something unrelated to RepRap, actually.
[03:10:10] <Endeavour> I'm this guy: www.muyshondt.net
[03:10:19] <ds3> Oh,yes I did talk to you
[03:10:32] <ds3> I have your magnet/card in my pile
[03:10:39] <Endeavour> Hah
[03:10:49] <Endeavour> Well hello again
[03:10:59] <ds3> what a small world :D
[03:11:15] <Endeavour> Must've talked to about 1000 people over those two days
[03:11:30] <ds3> *nod*
[03:11:39] <Jymmm> oh that guy is a jerk!
[03:11:54] <ds3> I saw many 3D printers there
[03:12:06] <Endeavour> Yeah, he probably is. ;)
[03:12:39] <pfred1> Endeavour but does it float?
[03:12:50] <ds3> I am the one that was trying to take close up pictures of the units there... mostly concentrating on the extruder
[03:13:04] <Endeavour> Nope. Fairly waterproof though, pfred1
[03:13:19] <pfred1> Endeavour then at least the fish will enjoy it :)
[03:13:25] <ds3> now I remember, you were going to sell kits, right?
[03:13:32] <Endeavour> ds3: Yep.
[03:13:49] <ds3> Endeavour: i was the nut asking if you would do extruder only kits
[03:14:06] <atmega> cheap extruder only would be cool
[03:14:07] <ds3> I think you were 2-3 displays up from the guy doing the EMC machine
[03:14:10] <Endeavour> Got the frame stuff ready, just pushing to get everything else done along with it insteead of having two releases
[03:14:17] <Endeavour> ds3: Correct.
[03:14:25] <ds3> it is all coming back
[03:14:35] <Endeavour> And I remember someone asking me about extruders.
[03:14:45] <Endeavour> And the answer is yes.
[03:15:02] <ds3> slap an extruder head on a working CNC mill and....
[03:15:08] <Endeavour> Yep.
[03:15:28] <drray> how big would the extruder head be? (ballpark)
[03:15:38] <ds3> maybe 2 packs of cards stacked
[03:16:06] <drray> that would be cool, I'm a sherline weenie for ow.
[03:16:07] <drray> now
[03:16:22] <ds3> unbolt the milling head and slap on the extruder
[03:16:33] <ds3> just need some decent slicing/CAM software to drive it
[03:16:52] <ds3> the fab@home extruder head looks simplier though
[03:17:33] <Endeavour> I talked to the Fab@Home guys before I left.
[03:17:43] <Endeavour> I didn't get to talk to almost anyone at the faire.
[03:17:57] <Endeavour> So I just talked with them while I was sitting around after tearing down the booth
[03:18:07] <Endeavour> Didn't get to see their stuff in action, but they showed me some parts.
[03:18:24] <Endeavour> The entire effort people are doing in 3D printing is admirable, but a lot of results so far are less than impressive.
[03:20:23] <pfred1> what kind of batteries does it take?
[03:21:29] <Endeavour> pfred1: The flashlight?
[03:21:35] <pfred1> yes
[03:21:44] <pfred1> page doesn't seem to say
[03:22:13] <Endeavour> CR2 Photo Lithium
[03:24:37] <pfred1> reminds me of an air chuck
[03:25:05] <ds3> their simplie extruder is a syringe driven by a screw
[03:25:14] <ds3> and their 'stock' is slicone chaulk
[03:25:29] <pfred1> silly putty
[03:25:36] <ds3> that might work
[03:26:22] <ds3> it is a race for me... finish my variant of the filament extruder, a silcone chaulk extruder, or an extruder kit
[03:27:31] <ds3> regardless, there just seems to be aweful lot of coverage for some pretty aweful results
[03:27:48] <pfred1> isn't that always the way?
[03:27:57] <ds3> the tolerances are either not mentioned or are ghastly when available
[03:28:07] <ds3> I guess
[03:28:26] <ds3> then you got guys out there reinventing the wheel and figuring out motion control
[03:28:33] <ds3> <-- a bit irked
[03:29:03] <pfred1> as long as they're having a good time
[03:29:14] <ds3> heh
[03:29:51] <pfred1> me I think I'm just trying to justify my junk collecting sickness over here
[03:29:54] <Endeavour> ds3: There's a whole lot of dumb stuff going on.
[03:30:06] <Endeavour> There's some good and some bad.
[03:30:26] <ds3> *nod*
[03:31:02] <Endeavour> I'm offering kits for something that's reasonably OK. 3D printing in general is pretty poorly executed, though.
[03:31:11] <Endeavour> I'm designing my own machine, which is why I'm here.
[03:31:51] <pfred1> Endeavour what will your machine print with?
[03:32:03] <ds3> Endeavour: I haven't seen enough of your machine to comment
[03:32:29] <Endeavour> ds3: I haven't seen enough of my machine either, since I'm still designing it. ;)
[03:32:38] <Endeavour> The kit I was offering was for a RepRap Mendel.
[03:32:49] <Endeavour> pfred1: Polylactic Acid.
[03:32:49] <ds3> heheh, you had some nifty cast parts
[03:32:49] <pfred1> does anyone make a machine that prints with a two part material like say a 2 part epoxy?
[03:33:11] <Endeavour> pfred1: Wouldn't work well.
[03:33:20] <ds3> pfred1: the fab@home stuff is close
[03:33:51] <Endeavour> the fab@home prints with caulk seemed a little crude, IMO.
[03:34:10] <ds3> but the material is easier to get
[03:34:15] <Endeavour> Most printers have a problem with good resolution.
[03:34:32] <Endeavour> ds3: Yes, but if the results are bad, it doesn't matter how easy it is to get.
[03:34:44] <ds3> for decent resolution, just get a Dimension machine
[03:36:18] <ds3> Endaevour: are you going to sell PLA filament?
[03:36:49] <pfred1> oh I think I've handled something made out of this plastic they gave us bio-degradable glasses at the brewery I bet were made with it it was sort of like styrene
[03:37:05] <Endeavour> Yeah
[03:37:21] <Endeavour> ds3: Maybe
[03:39:04] <pfred1> what might be cool would be a CNC pattern maker for molding materials
[03:39:35] <pfred1> so you could print out the pattern and then use it like lost wax to make the part with a poured metal
[03:40:10] <ds3> wax extruder
[03:40:16] <pfred1> sure
[03:40:57] <pfred1> I saw one guy had this neat technique where he'd dip his foam patterns in really thinned out wall mud then put it into loose sand to cast
[03:41:19] <pfred1> his stuff came out so smooth
[03:41:35] <pfred1> looked exactly like his foam patterns
[03:41:49] <pfred1> like you could see the foam beading in his castings
[03:43:48] <pfred1> could bring CNC metalwork to a larger audience
[03:46:06] <elmo40> http://sourceforge.net/projects/imill/
[03:47:35] <elmo40> interesting... http://gcam.js.cx/index.php/Main_Page
[03:53:38] <elmo40> http://code.google.com/p/cl-mill/
[03:56:03] <pfred1> when I search for "cam" in Synaptic not a single CAM package comes up
[03:56:28] <pfred1> oh wait one does! sagcad
[03:57:18] <pfred1> I have to see what this stuff is like
[03:58:43] <madsci42> cam is a big hole in the whole thing i think
[03:59:12] <madsci42> there are lots of great commercial ones but not much i have found yet open source
[03:59:21] <madsci42> bits and pieces
[03:59:25] <pfred1> heh this thing looks like xfig
[04:07:28] <Endeavour> pfred1: Cool
[04:07:35] <Endeavour> pfred1: (From earlier)
[04:08:09] <pfred1> Endeavour ?
[04:08:20] <Endeavour> pfred1: Casting stuff.
[04:08:33] <pfred1> oh yeah seems like a good idea to me
[04:08:52] <pfred1> a way around not being able to "print" some materials
[04:08:59] <Endeavour> Yeah
[04:09:24] <Endeavour> ds3: If you need an extruder contact me in a week or two.
[04:09:24] <pfred1> can still pour them though really casting aluminum actually melting the stuff is easy
[04:09:56] <Endeavour> pfred1: If you ever need a flashlight, let me know. I'll cut you a deal if you let me pick your brain. ;)
[04:10:29] <pfred1> I do like my flashlights I have an LED one from black and decker I use a lot
[04:10:53] <pfred1> it gets awfully dark around here
[04:11:10] <Endeavour> Yeah? Where's here?
[04:11:22] <pfred1> where I live I live out in the country
[04:11:42] <pfred1> so nighttime it nighttime here
[04:11:46] <Endeavour> Ah, yes. No light pollution must be nice.
[04:11:58] <pfred1> well it has its good and its bad
[04:12:00] <Endeavour> Get to see stars. :)
[04:12:25] <pfred1> as dark as it gets here the sky still isn't like I've seen it say in upstate maine
[04:12:43] <pfred1> that blows my mind how it is there
[04:13:04] <pfred1> its really 3D
[04:13:20] <Endeavour> Never been up there.
[04:14:14] <pfred1> place is pretty remote first non-indians made it there about 1852 and didn't seem to stick around for too long either
[04:15:45] <pfred1> this software makes no sense to me
[04:18:06] <Endeavour> Which software?
[04:18:11] <madsci42> sagcad?
[04:18:14] <pfred1> yes
[04:18:40] <madsci42> i've not tried it yet
[04:18:52] <pfred1> you've not missed much
[04:19:25] <madsci42> not in the sid repo yet
[04:19:51] <KimK> pfred1: re: "when I search for CAM in Synaptic..." You might also be able to find Python CAM, HeeksCAD, and HeeksCNC0 (don't know why the zero, revision still alpha, maybe?)
[04:20:33] <pfred1> I just searched for the string "cam" in name or description most of it was camera software
[04:21:28] <KimK> Heeks comes up as 0.10.2 in mine, I think that was the last stable release. Further development goes on all the time though.
[04:21:52] <pfred1> I'm on kharmic
[04:23:19] <pfred1> you have to be precognitive in order to use this stuff!
[04:23:48] <KimK> OK. I'm on 10.04 (Lucid) and I've installed EMC 2.4.0 manually, but "can't" upgrade (normally, anyway) because no repositories to get 2.4.1 from (yet).
[04:24:13] <pfred1> KimK how's that working for you?
[04:24:30] <pfred1> this BTW isn't my EMC machine
[04:24:46] <KimK> They're still working on all that, hope it's done by the CNC Workshop, lol. There's CDs to hand out!
[04:27:27] <pfred1> well that stuff is patently worthless
[04:42:02] <KimK> I have not used EMC on 10.04 much yet, I just started it, it came up, I said <Homer> "Woo-hoo!" </Homer> and that's about it so far. Although virtually identical to 8.04, I notice it is slightly different in the minor details (checkboxes, radiobuttons, etc.), maybe something to do with the kit it is written in, Tk vs. Qt or some such, I look forward to asking the developers about it at the workshop.
[04:43:26] <KimK> I'm referring to the AXIS display here, I never tried any of the others.
[05:12:07] <madsci42> it seems a bit more polished every time
[05:12:35] <madsci42> i noticed recently the gl zoom and operations work much more reliably than before
[05:25:51] <pfred1> I have to see if i can get hardware GL acceleration working on my EMC machine
[05:26:17] <madsci42> what kind of graphcis card does it run?
[05:26:33] <pfred1> has an ATI rage 128 in it now
[05:27:03] <madsci42> thats what my last emc box had
[05:27:12] <madsci42> it worked pretty well
[05:28:12] <madsci42> just with the regular xorg ati driver
[05:28:18] <pfred1> did you set it up to do hardware acceleration?
[05:28:23] <madsci42> yeah
[05:28:42] <madsci42> the hard drive isnt plugged in or i would pased you the conf file
[05:28:45] <pfred1> yeah i have to get that working i looked at it never quit finished it though
[05:28:46] <madsci42> paste
[05:29:29] <pfred1> some kernel module wasn't loading as I can recall
[05:29:55] <pfred1> was about as far as i got looking at it
[05:33:46] <madsci42> actually was just the standard driver setup - http://pastebin.ca/1882680
[05:34:19] <madsci42> kernel has good support for it too
[05:36:35] <pfred1> there is another section that needs to load
[05:37:04] <pfred1> and why did you switch from the r128 to the ati driver?
[05:38:47] <madsci42> as i recall at some point i read where xorg redid the ati driver so that it automatically selects the version for the particular card
[05:38:57] <madsci42> because tehy used to have seperate rage and others
[05:39:23] <pfred1> yeah like i said i never actually got mine working yet
[05:39:43] <madsci42> so now you just pick "ati" and it selects the server for the card
[05:40:01] <madsci42> i left that there on purpose so i would not forget :)
[05:41:32] <pfred1> well thanks there are some options there I haven't tried out
[07:06:08] <madsci42> hmm thats odd - i cant find the parallel port with lspci -v
[07:10:06] <bricofoy> is it the integrated //port or an additionnal card ?
[07:10:24] <bricofoy> on my PC, the integrated work does'nt show up with lspci
[07:10:30] <bricofoy> but my additionnal card does
[07:11:20] <bricofoy> and the integrated port works good, with the default adress 0x378
[07:24:22] <Jymmm> Jymmm is now known as Jymmmmmmmmmmm
[07:26:20] <madsci42> integrated port
[07:26:40] <madsci42> yeah same here it seems to work on the standard address
[07:26:44] <Jymmmmmmmmmmm> Jymmmmmmmmmmm is now known as Jymm
[07:26:54] <madsci42> i guess its behind a bridge somewhere
[07:27:22] <bricofoy> yeah, behind "isa to pci brige"
[07:38:00] <madsci42> i need to pick up some par cards anyways - i wonder if the dual ones are good
[07:47:46] <fragalot> well this is usefull
[07:48:08] <fragalot> * fragalot just found out his self centering vice has approx .5mm of play along the Y axis >.>
[07:48:28] <fragalot> can't believe I paid 200eur for that
[07:58:29] <bricofoy> wow
[07:58:35] <bricofoy> quite impressive :/
[07:58:58] <bricofoy> chinese product ?
[08:01:39] <madsci42> when its tight?
[08:51:34] <ries_> ries_ is now known as ries
[09:50:00] <ries_> ries_ is now known as ries
[11:52:54] <jthornton> Dang diameter/radius stuff can trip you up when your tired :/
[11:57:45] <morficmobile> just never do radius on a lathe, the devil did it, radius is only good for arcs :>
[11:59:21] <jthornton> the problem is when you draw it in ACAD the arc dimensions are in radius so if your hand coding in diameter and forget to convert that to diameter you pull your hair out till you figure it out
[12:00:30] <jthornton> the X offset is in radius even if your in diameter mode but that was easy
[12:02:45] <jthornton> the main thing is I figured out my error so I can continue writing the program for this left hand threaded widget
[12:59:20] <cradek> another good approach is to never use diameter mode
[13:01:44] <Jymm> Is there any legit use of diameter mode?
[13:02:13] <cradek> that's like asking "should we switch to the metric system"
[13:02:32] <cradek> "are manual transmissions better?"
[13:03:01] <Jymm> Well, we probably should, and no, too many clutches to burn out =)
[13:03:21] <SWPadnos> ITO
[13:03:24] <SWPadnos> err
[13:03:25] <SWPadnos> OYP
[13:03:27] <SWPadnos> no
[13:03:29] <SWPadnos> IYO
[13:03:30] <cradek> wtf
[13:03:35] <SWPadnos> damn, time to get coffee
[13:03:39] <cradek> get a grip on yourself
[13:03:40] <SWPadnos> In Your Opinion
[13:03:46] <SWPadnos> :)
[13:03:57] <SWPadnos> it might have been funny if I could have typed it correctly the first time
[13:04:04] <cradek> doubt it
[13:04:10] <SWPadnos> IYO
[13:04:10] <Jymm> make that two pots SWPadnos
[13:04:50] <Jymm> or second time, or even the third time
[13:05:40] <cradek> Jymm: diameter mode seems pretty natural when you consider your measuring tools and drawings are all in diameter
[13:05:48] <Jymm> OT: Anyone know of any newer ghost like apps other than partimage, clonezilla, or ghost4linux?
[13:06:02] <cradek> but when you think about how it interacts with the nose radius of a tool, or how to program an arc, it starts to suck
[13:06:33] <cradek> so emc does both, and lets you pick which set of suck you want to deal with
[13:06:41] <Jymm> lol
[13:07:07] <SWPadnos> "Letting users choose their own suck since 1997"
[13:07:40] <Optic> hehe
[13:07:48] <Jymm> "Would like like the $1.99 whore or the $2 whore?"
[13:08:06] <Jymm> "Would like like the $1.999 whore or the $2 whore?"
[13:08:34] <SWPadnos> s/like/you/
[13:09:06] <Jymm> "Would you you the $1.999 whore or the $2 whore?"
[13:09:15] <SWPadnos> I wonder how to construct a sed string that would replace the second "like" with something
[13:09:41] <celeron55_> s/like like/like you/ :-)
[13:09:47] <SWPadnos> wuss
[13:09:53] <Jymm> "Would like you the $1.999 whore or the $2 whore?"
[13:10:02] <SWPadnos> yes, master yoda
[13:10:18] <Jymm> Yoda are I not
[13:10:29] <SWPadnos> either me too yoda am not
[13:10:34] <celeron55_> s/like/you/ replaces only the first one
[13:10:39] <celeron55_> s/like/you/g replaces both
[13:10:40] <SWPadnos> damn, now I sound like Sarah Palin
[13:10:47] <celeron55_> afaik
[13:11:14] <SWPadnos> yes, I knos the g would do both, I was wondering how to match the second (or later) occurrence of something
[13:11:16] <SWPadnos> know
[13:11:48] <SWPadnos> I'm sure there's a way, I just don't know it
[13:14:09] <Jymm> How to INSTANTLY kill the project you are working on in 2 words or less... 1st paragraph, last sentence... http://www.drive-image.com/
[13:14:32] <SWPadnos> data loss?
[13:14:39] <Jymm> Zip Jazz
[13:15:17] <Jymm> That's SO last century
[13:18:17] <Jymm> I swear you would think that after all these years that someone would have created a good Ghost clone by now.
[13:19:47] <SWPadnos> what's wrong with the ones you listed?
[13:20:14] <Jymm> They are all "incomplete" compared to Norton Ghost.
[13:20:47] <steve_stallings> steve_stallings is now known as steves_logging
[13:20:50] <SWPadnos> with dd and netcat, you should be able to write a script to do anything you want ;)
[13:21:20] <Jymm> Except that if you dd a hdd you can't restore to a smaller hdd.
[13:21:29] <SWPadnos> details
[13:21:42] <Jymm> plus the about of time it takes is dramatically longer.
[13:22:49] <Jymm> I mainly use partimage. but If you are only using (lets say) 12GB of a 120GB hdd, you image it to a file, then restore to an 80GB hdd, it will fail.
[13:24:16] <Jymm> To be able to do that, you will need to resize the partitions on the 120GB hdd to as small as possible, image them, restore to smaller HDD, then resize (enlarge) the partitions to maximum size again.
[13:24:18] <SWPadnos> yeah, you have to fix the file system (at least with ext2/3)
[13:24:32] <SWPadnos> resize2fs or something
[13:24:59] <Jymm> Fs doesn't matter, be it ext2/3, ntfs, etc
[13:25:05] <SteveStallings> SteveStallings is now known as steves_logging
[13:25:05] <Jymm> File System
[13:25:16] <Jymm> It's a limitation of partimg
[13:25:57] <SWPadnos> well, if you use partimage, you'll get only used blocks, but the master inodes are in the wrong place when you restore to a different size drive, so there's a tool to fix that problem
[13:26:05] <Jymm> But if you dont know that ahead of time, you get screwed as thee is nothing in the docs about it drectly.
[13:26:07] <SWPadnos> which may be resize2fs or something else, I don't remember
[13:26:23] <SWPadnos> no, this is something you run after noticing that you can't boot the new drive ;)
[13:26:35] <SWPadnos> and you search the web for the answer
[13:26:38] <Jymm> Yes, you have to use multiple tools, not a single tool like Norton Ghost.
[13:26:50] <SWPadnos> you could just buy Norton Ghost
[13:26:58] <Jymm> No, partimg will REFUSE to restore the image, period.
[13:27:22] <SWPadnos> maybe I was going from a smaller to a larger drive
[13:27:26] <Jymm> Norton Ghost doesn't support bootable media now, it's all M$ GUI based.
[13:27:35] <Jymm> smaller to larger is fine.
[13:27:42] <Jymm> brb
[13:27:53] <SWPadnos> this article says that Acronis TrueImage is better: http://disk-imaging-software-review.toptenreviews.com/
[13:28:18] <SWPadnos> it also says that Ghost can be run from a bootable CD
[13:28:27] <SWPadnos> (they all can, apparently)
[13:28:47] <SWPadnos> you do have to generate the CD on a Windows machine though
[13:35:31] <Jymm> None of those are open source.
[13:37:35] <Jymm> And I can't redistribute those for use on things like creating a restore disc.
[13:38:36] <cradek> Jymm: use dump and restore. every unix in the history of the world has had them.
[13:39:08] <Jymm> cradek: Usually you can't fit a HDD install on to a DVD-R
[13:39:28] <cradek> what? er what are you trying to do?
[13:39:39] <Jymm> read up
[13:39:45] <cradek> :-P
[13:39:59] <cradek> mostly what I see is you whining :-)
[13:40:15] <Jymm> if that's all you see, so be it.
[13:40:17] <cradek> SWPadnos doesn't know sed ...
[13:40:34] <SWPadnos> swpadnos doesn't know regex very well either
[13:40:36] <cradek> whore prices...
[13:41:04] <archivist> awkin ell
[13:41:09] <Jymm> Yeah, were renting you out cradek.... CHEAP!
[13:41:40] <cradek> it's weird - I must have missed some lines
[13:42:00] <Jymm> now you know why you're so cheap!
[13:42:21] <cradek> oh well
[13:42:25] <Jymm> =)
[13:43:13] <Jymm> cradek: What I'm looking for is a util to create and distribute recovery discs that's not dependant upon the size of the restore hdd.
[13:43:58] <cradek> recovery of what? you mean you want someone to be able to take your disc and do an OS install with it?
[13:45:10] <Jymm> cradek: For example. My netbook doens't come with a restore disc, it's just not available. I want to create a restore disc that anyone could use, not just those familure with linux.
[13:45:11] <cradek> (I swear I don't see the problem statement in the scrollback)
[13:45:25] <SWPadnos> it wasn't there
[13:45:44] <SWPadnos> there was a question about ghost-like programs
[13:46:12] <archivist> mind reading is an IRC requirement
[13:46:33] <cradek> 08:39 < cradek> what? er what are you trying to do?
[13:46:34] <cradek> 08:39 < Jymm> read up
[13:46:36] <cradek> * cradek sighs
[13:46:55] <Jymm> Yeah, GHOST7(?) didn't care what size hdd/partition, but doens't support newer file systems.
[13:47:15] <cradek> I guess I don't even know what OS you're talking about - I was assuming linux because you're on #emc but who knows
[13:47:29] <Jymm> Doesn't matter what OS
[13:47:42] <SWPadnos> man. 500GB SATA2 drives, $39.99 and free shipping
[13:47:46] <cradek> sure it does - a real OS has working backup and restore utilities
[13:48:21] <cradek> 'recovery' disks are not needed because you can just restore your backup
[13:48:35] <Jymm> It's a bootable restore disc, what it's restoring doens't matter.
[13:48:42] <cradek> you're poisoned by the windows world if you think it's not your OS's responsibility to backup and restore itself
[13:48:47] <SWPadnos> well, it's got to have the image to restore on it, doesn't it?
[13:49:15] <SWPadnos> or are you talking about something that will make an image (on some other device) and then restore it at a later date?
[13:49:21] <cradek> I restore machines by booting a live cd and then restoring from tape (or an image on disc or whatever) over the network
[13:50:08] <cradek> I admit that having it all on one cd would take some extra work
[13:50:32] <SWPadnos> I guess the idea is to make something that any idiot^Wuser could use
[13:50:34] <cradek> (that's never been an important goal for me - it's been a long time since I've only had one computer)
[13:50:35] <Jymm> SWPadnos: When you have 30 laptops, and you want to restore the OS/Apps, etc just by inserting a DVD
[13:51:18] <cradek> SWPadnos: but that's what the ubuntu install cd is
[13:51:24] <SWPadnos> ok, so like a corporate IT guy, who doesn't want to have to hold onto peoples computers any longer than necessary :)
[13:51:48] <cradek> I'm actually that guy - I use a customized ubuntu install cd
[13:51:55] <Jymm> SWPadnos: Exactly =)
[13:51:56] <SWPadnos> heh, cool
[13:52:09] <Jymm> SWPadnos: 14 minutes from a blank hdd and I'm done.
[13:52:19] <cradek> who has 30 identical computers to install - I never have
[13:52:26] <Jymm> cradek: Me
[13:52:32] <Jymm> and try 130
[13:52:35] <cradek> damn, that's lucky
[13:52:37] <SWPadnos> that's the idea - the computers shouldn't have to be identical
[13:52:51] <SteveStallings> SteveStallings is now known as steves_logging
[13:52:58] <cradek> SWPadnos: well yes and no - if you want ghostlike, it means they all get the same drivers etc.
[13:53:09] <Jymm> Oh it's a nightmare with you have mixed systems in house
[13:53:17] <SWPadnos> the liveCD (or restore image) would have most of the common video/audio/chipset drivers, and the OS would need to have some way of auto-detecting what's necessary
[13:53:20] <Jymm> w/with/when/
[13:53:22] <SWPadnos> sure
[13:53:22] <cradek> Jymm: not really - the ubuntu install runs on all of 'em
[13:53:33] <SWPadnos> heh
[13:53:48] <Jymm> cradek: That's great, but this is the corp world
[13:53:59] <cradek> haha
[13:54:00] <SWPadnos> snark snark snark ;)
[13:54:21] <Jymm> cradek: and that still take longer than 14 minutes
[13:54:27] <cradek> I'll go back to playing with my alphabet blocks in the sandbox with the other kids here then
[13:54:44] <SWPadnos> that's my "Z"!
[13:55:13] <cradek> there are never enough Z blocks
[13:55:29] <SWPadnos> yeah, how could you spell "zyzzva" with a standard set?
[13:55:39] <Jymm> Ever see "OZ" on HBO ?
[13:55:46] <archivist> I had to bolt one under my mills columns
[13:55:48] <SWPadnos> once, I still have nightmares
[13:55:54] <Jymm> LOL
[13:56:56] <Jymm> It's not THAT bad
[13:57:06] <Jymm> well, maybe.
[13:57:31] <SWPadnos> the one episode I saw had a guy get spiked to the ground, with his hands and feet cut off, and left to die
[13:57:43] <SWPadnos> I didn't need to see much more
[13:57:48] <Jymm> Oh, that's nothing.
[13:57:48] <cradek> now that's entertainment
[13:57:57] <SWPadnos> yeah, high quality
[13:58:00] <cradek> sounds even better than the real news
[13:58:19] <SWPadnos> yeah, who wants to see dying fish and birds and stuff
[13:58:40] <SWPadnos> I'm going to un-friend BP on Facebook!
[13:58:50] <Jymm> SWPadnos: Then you better not watch discovery Channel
[13:59:15] <SWPadnos> well, tigers eating zebras is survival, not anger
[13:59:45] <Jymm> That I can handle. It's the attack/eating of baby animals that I can't.
[14:03:44] <Jymm> cradek: I looked at the man page for dump. Looks like it's for ext2/3 only, does that sound right?
[14:03:54] <cradek> Jymm: yes
[14:04:09] <Jymm> cradek: Ok, so no SWAP either?
[14:04:18] <cradek> Jymm: baby animals (I encountered yesterday): http://timeguy.com/cradek-files/fuzzy-kitten.jpg
[14:04:39] <Jymm> cute
[14:05:03] <cradek> no, you don't need to backup/restore swap
[14:05:32] <cradek> I tried five times to get a picture where he was holding still - this was the closest I got
[14:06:39] <Jymm> cradek: http://i48.tinypic.com/dbmcco.jpg
[14:08:07] <Jymm> http://i46.tinypic.com/m8hekj.jpg
[14:08:35] <Jymm> Jymm is now known as Jymmm
[14:16:22] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: Hey, have you found a purpose for your PicoITX yet?
[14:16:41] <SWPadnos> the freebie thing?
[14:16:46] <Jymmm> yeah
[14:16:48] <SWPadnos> nope
[14:16:58] <Jymmm> LOL, me neither. Still sitting in the box.
[14:17:17] <Jymmm> Sad, aint it.
[14:17:24] <SWPadnos> a little
[14:17:49] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: If I can get the other cables, might be pretty good for a Car PC
[14:18:09] <SWPadnos> yeah, could be. it's very low power
[14:18:27] <Jymmm> Yeah a double DIN LCD and direct drive it
[14:39:11] <Jymmm> Heh, a friend gave me a MP3 player. It just happens to be the first one ever made =)
[14:40:52] <Jymmm> Err, 2nd one ever made =)
[14:44:51] <tom3p> Rio?
[14:45:00] <Jymmm> Yeah
[14:45:08] <tom3p> got the cables?
[14:45:13] <Jymmm> yep
[14:45:25] <tom3p> cool, beware it doesnt like hi compression
[14:45:38] <bricofoy> cradek, http://bricofoy.free.fr/phpwebgallery/picture.php?/287/category/8
[14:46:22] <Jymmm> tom3p: well, the battery leaked in it, so sending to Duracell to write me a check for it instead.
[14:47:19] <tom3p> oops
[14:47:31] <Jymmm> tom3p: works for me =)
[14:47:57] <Jymmm> tom3p: I really dont need a paraport MP3 player
[14:48:25] <tom3p> red fox :) http://tinyurl.com/2elwehw
[14:49:15] <elmo40> http://learn-cnc-game.sourceforge.net/
[14:50:31] <Jymmm> elmo40: Yeah, i don't think so.
[14:52:34] <tom3p> elmo40, cool, but not opensource ( quest3D )
[15:00:43] <elmo40> I think it is still good for the n00bs
[15:00:55] <elmo40> just go here: http://learn-cnc-game.sourceforge.net/lesson_browser/
[15:01:00] <elmo40> don't have to pay
[15:01:48] <elmo40> I don't know what this project is about, though: http://sourceforge.net/projects/blendercad/files/
[15:05:12] <elmo40> wow, haven't seen this before: http://fabbsd.org/
[15:05:22] <elmo40> BSD based
[15:07:18] <jthornton> when cutting an internal groove on a lathe that is wider than the tool bit do you just plunge in twice?
[15:08:34] <cradek> what shape of tool?
[15:08:54] <jthornton> flat with some slight taper on the sides
[15:09:17] <jthornton> taper in
[15:09:29] <cradek> yeah I'd try just plunging I guess
[15:09:46] <jthornton> that is kinda what I thought
[15:10:07] <jthornton> cradek: I finally got my mind right with G2/3 this morning
[15:11:24] <jthornton> I was looking at radius dimensions in ACAD and or QCad for X and not converting them to diameter like I should have when working in diameter mode
[15:11:48] <cradek> ah yep
[15:12:12] <cradek> arcs in diameter mode are even harder to get right when coding by hand than normal arcs
[15:12:49] <jthornton> having to remember that the X offset is radius?
[15:13:18] <cradek> well I think the hard part is having to remember the X destination is a diameter
[15:13:32] <cradek> but yeah, either way the combination can throw you
[15:14:20] <jthornton> I wish my ACAD would draw in the ZX plane that would make it easy
[15:14:44] <jthornton> but I have the Lite version so it is limited
[15:16:04] <jthornton> I did play with dxf2gcode this morning a bit and it seems to have progressed too bad it is also XY and mm
[15:20:18] <jthornton> * jthornton is still on dial-up atm so talk to you guys later
[15:34:46] <elmo40> http://code.google.com/p/emc2hotwinch/ hotwire foam cutter cofiguration
[15:48:29] <martymcfly> martymcfly is now known as Guest94715
[15:48:57] <Guest94715> any one using emc2 with a puma 560
[15:49:31] <kgartner> I have a puma, and emc2, just not all hooked together yet
[15:50:24] <Guest94715> I have a fealing its going to take alot of work
[15:51:24] <kgartner> :) probably
[15:51:37] <Guest94715> I need some info on this I checked the emc forum and I dont think anyone else is attempting to do what iam trying to do.
[15:51:38] <piasdom> hello
[15:52:03] <SWPadnos> you could try the puma560 sample config
[15:52:12] <kgartner> what exactly are you trying to do? just get it all hooked up, or something fancy?
[15:52:13] <micges> hi
[15:52:34] <Guest94715> as for right now just getting it hooked up to it
[15:54:20] <kgartner> ah okay, well I'll have mine hooked up by the end of the summer, so I guess we're in this together. What type of control card/motor controllers are you using?
[15:54:28] <Guest94715> I know I need a driver board i think the 7i33 but I dont how to connect it to the controller
[15:56:00] <Guest94715> thats all I know so far.
[15:56:10] <kgartner> oh, the big puma one? Yea, that things a pain, I threw mine away and bought new motor drivers
[15:56:59] <kgartner> I know people have made interface cards etc that go into the big controller box, but I have no idea how you do that
[15:58:17] <piasdom> can someone look at my ini file and let me know why i get the error windows in axis 2.4 ? http://pastebin.com/invvAqVi
[15:58:38] <Guest94715> is there a way you can give me there info so I might be able to contact them. I would like to get this baby workin
[15:58:39] <piasdom> it worked before o installed a new video card
[15:58:49] <cradek> piasdom: what's the error
[15:58:57] <piasdom> o*i
[15:59:08] <Guest94715> can you pm me Kgartner
[16:00:09] <piasdom> cradek: error: http://pastebin.com/WaCuzkgf
[16:00:40] <cradek> did you just update from 2.3 to 2.4?
[16:00:50] <piasdom> and my x and z steppers sounds different then before. y sounds the same
[16:01:08] <piasdom> i had 2.4 working...made a couple of parts
[16:01:09] <cradek> now hang on
[16:01:22] <cradek> if you're getting an error and emc doesn't start, how do you know what the steppers sound like?
[16:01:35] <cradek> the error in your pastebin is because of updating versions: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl/emcinfo.pl?UPDATING
[16:01:44] <piasdom> i use a sample ini
[16:01:46] <cradek> and none of this has anything to do with a video card
[16:02:11] <piasdom> i didn't think the card had anything to do with it :0
[16:03:01] <piasdom> but the sample ini is wrong for my mill...scaling and other stuff...but it lets my jog the axis
[16:03:21] <piasdom> reading
[16:06:16] <micges> piasdom: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl/emcinfo.pl?UPDATING#emc_nml_changes
[16:06:30] <micges> read carefully and follow instructions
[16:06:58] <piasdom> cradek: thanks...new nml
[16:07:07] <piasdom> micges: ok
[16:09:54] <piasdom> all sound good...thanks
[16:11:28] <piasdom> ok how do set the max velocity? it's at 72 now...way too high(20)
[16:18:06] <ries_> ries_ is now known as ries
[16:40:22] <piasdom> what does this ^ do in 2 in/s^2 ?
[16:41:05] <SWPadnos> it doesn't do anything, but it is a representation of raising a number to a power
[16:41:19] <SWPadnos> so it's seconds to the second power, or seconds squared
[16:42:49] <KimK> or inches per second per second, aka acceleration
[16:43:23] <piasdom> so 2 squared (4in per sec) ?
[16:44:13] <piasdom> and can i add this formula to the ini file?
[16:44:27] <KimK> 2 (or 50) in/s is a velocity, 2 (or 50) in/s^2 is an acceleration rate
[16:44:57] <SWPadnos> the formula is in a comment, and is irrelevant to the configuration
[16:45:07] <piasdom> great
[16:45:18] <SWPadnos> and no, it's not 4 in/sec, it's 2 inch per (second squared)
[16:45:41] <SWPadnos> which means that it takes one second for the machine to accelerate to 2 inches per second
[16:46:01] <SWPadnos> (2 inch/second velocity per second of acceleration)
[16:46:03] <piasdom> 60 squared ?
[16:46:18] <SWPadnos> no, you need to read about velocity and acceleration :)
[16:46:39] <piasdom> i did. tha's why i asked about ^
[16:47:44] <SWPadnos> ^ is a symbol that has a mathematical meaning (or at least it represents a mathematical operation)
[16:48:06] <SWPadnos> there's another level to it though, which is understanding what the numbers or formulas mean, with respect to a machine
[16:48:27] <pcw_home> in/s^0 = position in/s^1 = velocity in/s^2 = acceleration in/s^3 = jerk
[16:48:48] <SWPadnos> yep, there you go :)
[16:48:56] <piasdom> right now i have max velocity(20in/min) and jog speed(72in/min) . i'm trying to fix jog
[16:49:21] <piasdom> so now i'm a jerk ?
[16:49:24] <piasdom> cool
[16:49:28] <piasdom> thanks anyway
[16:49:55] <KimK> pcw_home: Whaddya gonna do?
[16:50:13] <tom3p> bookmark it :)
[16:50:31] <KimK> And I was just about to offer this: http://www.physicsclassroom.com/Class/1DKin/u1l1e.cfm
[16:52:14] <SWPadnos> hmmm. too bad I didn't notice that it was pcw_home who posted that rather than piasdom
[16:55:42] <KimK> Unfortunately, the only article I can find quickly with velocity, acceleration, and jerk in the title is business related (and pay to view to boot): http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-172329960.html But I'll keep looking for something to clear things up for piasdom.
[16:56:06] <tom3p> the change in (the change in velocity ) = jerk , never saw it expressed mathematically before
[16:56:30] <SWPadnos> third derivative of position, simple :)
[16:56:41] <pcw_home> I guess EMC currently doesnt deal with cubic profiles though
[16:56:57] <tom3p> oh now i'm simple (huff )
[16:57:02] <SWPadnos> no, it's trapezoidal accel profiles
[16:57:07] <elmo40> so, when acceleration changes (increase, decrease, switch direction...) it is called jerk? I have never heard that before and I took physics for 3 years in uni!
[16:57:31] <SWPadnos> it's more of an engineering term, not a theoretical physics term (I think)
[16:59:03] <tom3p> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerk_(physics)
[16:59:07] <elmo40> I took engineering :P
[16:59:10] <KimK> I seem to recall that there was one more derivative (seldom used) beyond jerk that had a name as well, it had to do with the degree of roughness or suddenness of the jerk. But I can't find it right now.
[16:59:34] <SWPadnos> snap
[16:59:45] <elmo40> ok, Surge is what I used
[17:00:02] <pcw_home> I've seen papers on quintic profiles but never messed with them
[17:00:39] <SWPadnos> it would be great to get a quintic planner, but it's really really hard when you support non-trivial kinematics
[17:00:49] <SWPadnos> (if you want to obey joint constraints)
[17:00:56] <SWPadnos> at least it looks really really hard to me :)
[17:01:30] <pcw_home> calculating stopping distance explodes
[17:01:32] <KimK> hi andypugh , hi mozmck
[17:01:49] <mozmck> hi KimK
[17:01:59] <SWPadnos> yeah, you have non-linear position-based constraints
[17:05:13] <tom3p> non-std defines, the quote at end of page is funny ( rice crispy terms for hubble scope motion ) http://www.xs4all.nl/~johanw/PhysFAQ/General/jerk.html
[17:05:43] <jthornton> Sweet! I finally ran all the steps of the left hand doohicky on the Hardinge and it came out nice looking... 5 more to go
[17:05:51] <skunkworks> KimK: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MucNO3Dij9o&feature=email
[17:08:42] <elmo40> skunkworks: a little slow, eh?
[17:11:51] <KimK> tom3p: excellent technically, and entertaining too, thanks!
[17:12:14] <skunkworks> elmo40: that is done by manually turning on/off solinoids through emc.
[17:12:43] <tom3p> jthornton, did you use the this dxf2gcode? http://code.google.com/p/dxf2gcode/ do you have an english translation?
[17:13:18] <KimK> skunkworks: Hi Sam, congrats on getting things moving again, nice video. The row of LEDs are the tool number rings going by?
[17:13:24] <skunkworks> yes
[17:13:32] <skunkworks> the bottom one is the trigger.
[17:14:18] <jthornton> tom3p: no, it is only for mills
[17:14:34] <jthornton> I did mess with it a bit this morning and it looks nice
[17:15:14] <skunkworks> jthornton: couldn't you just change y to z and j to k?
[17:15:23] <skunkworks> (I would have to think about it...)
[17:15:36] <jthornton> not quite
[17:16:23] <jthornton> y ends up being x and x is z
[17:16:30] <skunkworks> ah
[17:17:01] <KimK> skunkworks: I forgot how that K&T looks on the other side, are your tool chain and tool arm built so you can prefetch and stage the next tool pretty early?
[17:17:06] <jthornton> and then I was in diameter mode yesterday and trying to do arcs with radius measurments
[17:18:16] <skunkworks> KimK: yes - you would call the tool way before you would need it.
[17:18:52] <skunkworks> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/oldkandt.JPG
[17:19:50] <celeron55_> http://www.wimp.com/metricsystem/
[17:21:37] <tom3p> wow, a white lab coat is a doctor :) grey & dark blue were just workers
[17:30:40] <frieze> is there a bug with switching between g90 and g90? I am trying to use g91 then g10 l2 then g91 to repeatedly redefine a coordinate space and it doesn't appear to work. http://pastebin.com/u8AzWpt0
[17:30:48] <frieze> g90 and g91 that is
[17:31:25] <cradek> frieze: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/gcode_main.html#sub:G10:-Set-Coordinate
[17:32:33] <frieze> cradek: thanks. I was looking in an old set of docs apparently. Is there a way to get that effect? (i.e. set a coordinate system as relative to current position?)
[17:33:01] <cradek> look down two sections to G10 L20
[17:33:24] <frieze> cradek: ahh, thanks again. That just might work
[17:43:56] <cradek> 20% off enco orders > $99: WBRFD
[18:05:31] <andypugh> looking at the K&T video Alex Joni was tagged as a nasty spammer. :-) (He isn't any more)