#emc | Logs for 2010-06-12

[04:00:05] <initsix> hi there.
[04:00:15] <initsix> * initsix hellos there.
[04:01:27] <initsix> So I have a question about emc installation: I can run a "regular" ubuntu live cd, but when I run the emc version it starts loading but does this weird "Checking Block NNNN" with all this other crap.
[04:02:06] <initsix> But the type face of the error looks like nothing I've seen. It's a sorta weird BSOD typeface like it's coming from a very low level controller of sorts...
[04:02:17] <initsix> it's really blowing my mind.
[04:02:48] <initsix> I thought the disc might be bad, so I burned a second one. Checksums match what's posted...
[04:03:48] <initsix> BAD IO CHECKING BLOCK 0X1
[04:03:52] <initsix> BAD IO CHECKING BLOCK 0X2
[04:03:54] <initsix> BAD IO CHECKING BLOCK 0X3
[04:03:56] <initsix> etc..
[04:12:32] <initsix> I have no idear.Has anyone seen or read or anything about this before?
[04:32:21] <morfic> i have this one a lot of machines, boots fine on one, not the other, identical machines too
[04:32:32] <morfic> i have no answer, can just confirm i saw it
[04:33:47] <morfic> best cd to boot was the one i did not forget to limit burn speed on, fast burned ones booted on none
[04:34:42] <KimK> I second morfic's advice, burn at a very slow speed for best results. And just out of curiosity, did you checksum by md5summing manually or by running the "check this disk" selection?
[04:36:27] <KimK> Also (and this might be related to burn speed), I have had certain CD-ROM drives that just won't load right, maybe try borrowing another CD-ROM drive?
[04:38:04] <KimK> You might also try choosing some of the boot options, what was it, F3? More? I forgot.
[04:41:31] <KimK> initsix: Hope this helps. I'll check back later if you want to try some things and let me (all of us) know how it went.
[04:54:22] <KimK> initsix: Oh, one more thing. There were at least two versions of the 8.04 EMC2 disk. The "...aj13..." version currently on the download page http://www.linuxcnc.org/content/view/21/4/lang,english/ is the latest one, in case you somehow got hold of an older file. The current file lists as 695.4 MB (729202688 bytes), so it may or may not be over the "usual" 700MB disk limit, some burners and/or readers may have trouble with that size limit. I'm not sure if that's
[04:54:22] <KimK> even an issue or not, but thought I'd mention it.
[04:54:26] <KimK> Oops
[06:07:09] <initsix> Thanks for the help. It turns out that it was the drive was bad, there was some gunk on the laser transport worm drive and it was getting stuck about half-way across the disk.
[06:08:22] <initsix> It just happened that the regular ubuntu disk I was comparing to, was a teensy 150MB home-built version.
[06:09:01] <initsix> But when I tried a different live-CD (m0n0wall) it crapped on me the same so I knew it wasn't the emc CD.
[06:26:23] <tom982304> has anyone encountered or heard of problems selecting the machine architecture in rtai3.8's config?
[06:27:32] <tom982304> mine seems to be stuck in x86_64 which is not my intended target - and I cant find any way to change it in menuconfig
[08:00:04] <ries_> ries_ is now known as ries
[08:30:24] <initsix> HI guys, I got another one for you.
[08:31:18] <initsix> I am setting up my mill, I run EMC2 Step Conf and get everything setup and running. (all axises are running in "test this axis") then I save...
[08:31:50] <initsix> then I load EMC with the new settings and when I go to use the PGUP/PGDN to move the Z, I get nothing.
[08:32:06] <initsix> like it hates me or something.
[12:38:47] <frallzor> heh Im no artist :P
[13:06:17] <frallzor> http://www.pici.se/p/large/iXziHPFRb/ im no DaVinci :P
[13:09:36] <pcw_home> kinda warhol-esque
[13:10:05] <frallzor> painted my nice milled motif
[14:25:20] <initsix> so... nothing?
[14:27:39] <SWPadnos> initsix, do the other axes move when you try to jog them?
[14:29:38] <frallzor> whats the issue?`
[14:30:11] <SWPadnos> Z doesn't move with PGUP/PGDN, but does in the stepconf test mode
[14:30:14] <SWPadnos> bbl
[14:30:20] <frallzor> how odd
[14:30:25] <initsix> This is a curious thing, does anyone happen to know where I can find the differences between the control states during "Test this axis" and while in an operational state? Because my Z axis works just fine in "Test this axis" but it just stalls (or doesn't even respond) when trying to move it in emc.
[14:30:49] <initsix> IT's like there's a different driver for the program vs. test mode.
[14:31:09] <initsix> I can't explain it at all.
[14:31:19] <SWPadnos> do the other axes move?
[14:31:21] <frallzor> for me it was different at one time
[14:31:23] <initsix> Yup
[14:31:29] <frallzor> never got it moving in test mode
[14:31:35] <frallzor> but worked fine in emc
[14:31:56] <initsix> hmm... I am looking at the code and they are nothing alike at all.
[14:32:01] <SWPadnos> post your ini file on http://pastebin.ca - someone (maybe me) will look at it at some point
[14:32:07] <SWPadnos> gotta run now though
[14:32:16] <initsix> ok
[15:57:11] <initsix> Okay, I've posted the INI at http://pastebin.ca/1881730
[15:58:15] <frallzor> that velocity, isnt that quite slow?
[15:58:25] <frallzor> maybe its moving just that you cant see it? =)
[15:58:34] <initsix> no
[15:58:54] <initsix> this thing isn't even lighting the "STEP" indicator
[15:58:59] <initsix> so
[15:59:01] <initsix> yeah.
[15:59:05] <initsix> it is quite slow.
[15:59:11] <frallzor> take a pic from the stepconf
[15:59:15] <frallzor> where you set pins
[15:59:26] <initsix> hmm...
[15:59:28] <frallzor> I made a mistake when setting up my new comp
[15:59:34] <frallzor> switched step and dir
[15:59:39] <initsix> oh
[15:59:56] <initsix> oh shit. would that make it work in "TEST" but not in EMC?
[16:00:03] <frallzor> no idea
[16:00:03] <initsix> I should check that...
[16:00:09] <initsix> oh
[16:00:19] <initsix> well, the axis works just fine in STEPCONF
[16:00:24] <initsix> hmm.
[16:00:34] <frallzor> when doing that my steppers clicked when jogging
[16:00:37] <frallzor> but nothing more
[16:00:59] <frallzor> but cant see it would be that simple if it works in test, but who knows
[16:01:27] <initsix> hmm
[16:01:40] <initsix> so do you want a screen of stepconf?
[16:01:57] <frallzor> doesnt hurt to compare
[16:01:58] <initsix> cuz I thinkit's a good idear...
[16:02:11] <frallzor> what ya using to drive the steppers?
[16:02:41] <initsix> #google 'screen cap keystroke"+"ubuntu"
[16:03:19] <initsix> this is a cheapass MDFLY ebay thing
[16:13:42] <Guest376> hello
[16:14:10] <initsix> hi
[16:14:52] <Guest376> so im just trying out this IRC thing
[16:15:12] <initsix> awesome
[16:15:17] <initsix> welcome to 1995... hehe...
[16:15:21] <Guest376> using the java in-browser one ...link from emc site
[16:15:22] <initsix> best technology ever.
[16:15:26] <initsix> ahh.
[16:15:27] <Jymmm> What's irc?
[16:15:40] <Guest376> yeah yeah ... i know
[16:15:42] <initsix> Jymm, it's this new shit. you wouldn't understand.
[16:15:46] <initsix> hehe
[16:16:17] <Guest376> ive avoided IRC, as ive never had a need for it
[16:16:30] <Jymmm> http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2812.html
[16:17:17] <Jymmm> avoid?!
[16:17:25] <Jymmm> err avoided?!
[16:17:40] <Guest376> yeah ... i just didnt ever have a use for it
[16:17:51] <initsix> I don't know about avoid... you must be a yungin'
[16:18:29] <Guest376> i guess i knew enough people near me who were on AIM or gtalk or whathaveyou
[16:18:48] <Jymmm> LOL
[16:18:52] <Guest376> well ... im old enough to know what IRC is
[16:19:15] <initsix> right.. I think that's prob true. (I mean your using it)
[16:19:22] <initsix> you're*
[16:19:28] <initsix> but, I feel so old...
[16:19:41] <initsix> like we used it because that's all there was.
[16:19:49] <Jymmm> No, he's hitting a web iface
[16:19:49] <Guest376> well.. i can remember when a 486 was current
[16:19:58] <initsix> cleveland freenet days and shit.
[16:20:11] <initsix> makes me want to LOL... you know, for postairty
[16:20:57] <Guest376> anyway .. is their a client youd reccomend
[16:21:08] <initsix> I use irssi...
[16:21:10] <pfred1> who's client?
[16:21:12] <initsix> it's pretty fancy
[16:21:23] <pfred1> /ver initsix
[16:21:28] <Guest376> sweet ill try it out
[16:21:48] <pfred1> Guest376 think up a nickname too
[16:22:12] <pfred1> Guest376 then /msg nickserv help register I think it is
[16:22:34] <Guest376> alright ... thanks
[16:22:52] <pfred1> even if thats wrong nickserv should give the correct command
[16:23:03] <Guest376> im looking at irssi... it runs everything ... linux/win.. very nice
[16:23:34] <pfred1> I run mine in a konsole gives me the fancy font
[16:23:35] <Guest376> thanks guys ... ill think one up and be back later this evening
[16:24:01] <Guest376> i gotta run for a bit
[16:24:07] <initsix> 8.14
[16:24:13] <initsix> sweet time for upgrade.
[16:24:30] <pfred1> yeah my upgrade manager just popped up here
[16:26:04] <pfred1> 30 files!
[16:52:37] <SWPadnos> initsix, can you also post IMOBAX.hal to pastebin?
[16:53:52] <SWPadnos> got them already?
[16:53:58] <Jymmm> Yep
[16:54:03] <SWPadnos> cool
[17:11:42] <frallzor> http://pici.se/p/QeoxZyHFJ/ still a WIP =)
[17:12:38] <frallzor> but its getting there
[17:32:27] <initsix> the driver is based on a TA8345H
[17:32:32] <initsix> here
[17:32:44] <initsix> is the hal file:
[17:36:18] <initsix> http://pastebin.ca/1881769
[17:36:39] <initsix> Here is the IMOBAX.HAL for the problem - http://pastebin.ca/1881769
[17:52:10] <SWPadnos> initsix, try using MDI instead of jogging
[17:52:31] <SWPadnos> do something like G91 G1 F10 X0.5
[17:52:50] <SWPadnos> then G91 G1 F10 X-0.5
[17:53:04] <SWPadnos> (that will move back to the original spot, G91 is relative motion, if you don't know G-code)
[17:53:15] <initsix> The okay
[17:53:17] <initsix> one sec
[17:57:01] <initsix> ok so
[17:57:15] <initsix> it moves X back and forth
[17:57:28] <initsix> but
[17:57:36] <SWPadnos> err, right. try that with Z instead
[17:57:38] <SWPadnos> (oops :) )
[17:57:43] <initsix> I also did it with Z (which is where I am having the problem.
[17:57:47] <SWPadnos> ah
[17:57:50] <initsix> It "says" it's moving it.
[17:57:52] <SWPadnos> smart thinking~
[17:57:55] <initsix> hehe..
[17:57:59] <initsix> but it aint moving.
[17:58:27] <SWPadnos> what is the minimum step time for your driver?
[17:58:32] <initsix> I could digup the oscope
[17:58:34] <SWPadnos> and is it the same for X, Y, and Z?
[17:58:55] <SWPadnos> it looks like it's set to 2000 ns (the parport reset time)
[17:59:09] <SWPadnos> which is actually pretty short for a cheapo driver like you said you have :)
[18:00:11] <initsix> uhm
[18:00:22] <initsix> let me see
[18:01:10] <initsix> okay
[18:01:19] <initsix> yeah
[18:01:23] <initsix> it's set to 2000...
[18:01:44] <initsix> what's that crap about? hehe...
[18:01:48] <initsix> * initsix researches...
[18:02:27] <SWPadnos> I bet that the axis test doesn't use "double-step" mode, which means that the actual step time will be a lot longer than the 2000 you've got in the file
[18:02:41] <initsix> so what do you think?
[18:02:49] <SWPadnos> but the emc config does use double-step, so the step times are much closer to 2000 ns
[18:02:51] <initsix> like 4000?
[18:02:55] <SWPadnos> I have no idea
[18:03:25] <SWPadnos> that's entirely dependent on the hardware
[18:03:32] <initsix> shit
[18:03:58] <micges> initsix: you have 1ns steplen and stepspace in halfile, it's much too small ,try put there 20000 and test Z axis
[18:04:21] <SWPadnos> interesting
[18:04:24] <initsix> huh.
[18:04:27] <SWPadnos> the parport.0.reset is 2000
[18:04:35] <initsix> okay...
[18:04:38] <SWPadnos> I didn't notice the steplen/stepspace values
[18:04:48] <SWPadnos> ok, that's right
[18:05:12] <SWPadnos> steplen 1 and stepspace 0 tells the stepgen that it can issue a step every base_period - that's "double-step" mode
[18:05:30] <SWPadnos> then parport.0.reset-time is the actual step duration (2000 in this case)
[18:05:48] <micges> oh I see
[18:06:05] <micges> but 2000 is still much to small
[18:06:08] <initsix> ohuhm.
[18:06:17] <SWPadnos> but given the very very long dirhold and dirsetup times, as well as the exceedingly long base period, I'm thinking 2000 is too low
[18:07:12] <initsix> I don't know what any of these mean, is there a link to some docs somewhere?
[18:07:20] <micges> initsix: leave steplen and stepspace alone, try put 20000 to parport reset value
[18:07:31] <initsix> ok
[18:07:50] <initsix> wait
[18:07:59] <SWPadnos> it's all in the documentation for stepgen, the thing that actually generates the steps
[18:08:07] <initsix> okay tks
[18:08:09] <initsix> so,
[18:08:17] <SWPadnos> and you need documentation from the motor driver manufacturer to see what the numbers should be for your driver
[18:09:16] <initsix> question is do I have to change the hal file in EMC2 stepconf wizard or is it time for me to grow-up and stop using the wizard...
[18:09:33] <SWPadnos> the wizard should be fine for this stuff
[18:09:46] <SWPadnos> the questions are all there, you just have to answer them right :)
[18:10:01] <initsix> where in the wizard do I change it, I am on the first page and it says parport base address...
[18:10:26] <SWPadnos> keep going through the pages
[18:10:28] <initsix> but dir setup, hold, stepspace, steptime, and driver type...
[18:10:50] <initsix> the next page is the pinout assignment...
[18:10:56] <SWPadnos> there's a drop-down that has "custom" as an option, I believe
[18:11:03] <initsix> yeah I am in custom.
[18:11:05] <SWPadnos> if you select that, you can change the timing values
[18:11:23] <initsix> Driver type "Other"
[18:11:25] <SWPadnos> well, there you go, now you need to read the documentation from your hardware and enter the numbers (in nanoseconds)
[18:11:37] <initsix> ohh okay.
[18:17:04] <initsix> yeah all the torque peaks are at 2000.
[18:20:38] <SWPadnos> that's not the information you're looking for
[18:20:50] <SWPadnos> and it's also inaccurate if it's a stepper torque chart
[18:20:53] <pfred1> * pfred1 isn't picky
[18:20:59] <initsix> hmm.
[18:21:20] <SWPadnos> power may peak (and remain constant) at 2000 (steps/sec probably, that's high RPM for a stepper)
[18:21:24] <initsix> well. It's a curve actually, and the freq looks like it peaks at 2000ish or so hz.
[18:21:27] <SWPadnos> anyway, gotta run. good luck with it
[18:21:48] <pfred1> the general stepper torque rule I've learned is the faster a stepper goes the more volts you have to pour into it in order to get any torque out of it
[18:21:49] <initsix> shit
[18:21:54] <initsix> right
[18:21:58] <initsix> I don't care too much about
[18:22:17] <initsix> power
[18:22:18] <initsix> etc
[18:22:35] <pfred1> smaller steppers also have a tendency to run faster than larger ones
[18:22:49] <pfred1> if you're looking for speed over power
[18:22:50] <initsix> hmm...
[18:22:54] <initsix> I don't care.
[18:23:31] <pfred1> all of this nonsense is why people opt for servos if they can afford it
[20:06:49] <initsix> yeah
[20:06:52] <initsix> servos...
[20:07:17] <initsix> I think that's what I am going to go with, but for now, I just want to cut a few circuit cards...
[20:07:38] <initsix> I've been at this problem a full 24 hours now... hmmm... sleep somewhere in there should be a priority.
[20:07:58] <initsix> well... not 24 hrs...
[20:08:04] <initsix> just since midnight this morning.
[20:08:22] <initsix> this is annoying. I need to learn more about it.
[20:15:21] <micges> initsix: can you zip your config dir and paste it to filebin.ca ?
[20:15:34] <micges> I'll try help
[20:27:14] <fragalot> Wheee
[20:27:19] <fragalot> my Sable 2015 arrived
[20:27:20] <fragalot> * fragalot plays
[20:28:21] <initsix> sure thing
[20:28:49] <initsix> brb
[20:49:48] <tom3p> fragalot, like it? i think mine is pretty sweet
[20:52:50] <geo01005> So I have a question about joints and axes...
[20:53:13] <geo01005> In regards to a gantry mill.
[20:54:31] <micges> ask
[20:54:49] <geo01005> So there is this information: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?IniChanges
[20:55:18] <geo01005> Is it true that if my INI file only has three axes, that I can only have three joints?
[20:55:36] <geo01005> A gantry mill has three axes, but four joints.
[20:56:27] <micges> geo01005: those info in wiki are guide for developers how to fix those thhings in future versions of emc
[20:56:32] <geo01005> Currently the only way that I get the kinematics on my mill to work is to add an additional axes to the ini file (the C axis) and then use gantrykins to map that joint/axes to my second Y joint.
[20:57:16] <micges> now if you want to define gantry you must define XYYZ axes in ini
[20:57:21] <geo01005> Yes I understand what the page is, I just can't believe that it hasn't already been done.
[20:58:08] <geo01005> I tried to do that, define XYYZ, but I didn't seem to work.
[20:58:40] <geo01005> I ended up doing something like the example gantry setup that is shipped with EMC.
[20:58:52] <geo01005> It uses the C axes as the fourth joint.
[20:59:15] <geo01005> This is a major flaw in terminology if nothing else.
[20:59:35] <micges> geo01005: you need it for 24h machine or for learning?
[20:59:49] <geo01005> learning.
[21:00:22] <geo01005> It just bugs me that there is a X axes option in my jog window.
[21:00:33] <geo01005> Sorry, C axes.
[21:00:42] <micges> there is jointaxis3 branch where those wiki infos are valid
[21:01:22] <micges> it's in working stage, not able to used in production evironments
[21:02:04] <micges> there is gantry example config there
[21:02:05] <geo01005> Any idea when that will get merged back into the trunk?
[21:02:32] <micges> unfortunately not soon
[21:02:53] <tom3p> i >think< its correct to let the kins know there's 4 joints and the ini eb told there's 3 axis tho i havent read it all
[21:03:06] <micges> there is huge amount of works there
[21:03:20] <tom3p> may help to look at gantrykins & this page http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?IniChanges
[21:03:45] <initsix> awesome
[21:04:14] <Guest728> Guest728 is now known as skunkworks_
[21:04:21] <tom3p> sorry , got dropped twice while typing that
[21:04:24] <geo01005> It is just bothersome that the INI file Axes section has both axes and joint information mixed together, so if you want another joint, you have to add another axes.
[21:04:57] <geo01005> Mostly I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't doing it wrong.
[21:05:09] <skunkworks_> geo01005: there is developement going on to separate joints/axis.
[21:05:27] <geo01005> Or if there is a way to do this so that there is no evidence that there is a C axes on this machine.
[21:05:55] <geo01005> So what I have done is the "correct" way to do it right now?
[21:07:44] <fragalot> tom3p: sofar it's working quite nicely
[21:07:55] <mIreland> I'm needing shaft encoders. what sort do you guys recommend?
[21:08:28] <fragalot> tom3p: I got the low profile piece clamp thingy whatchamacallit too but it doesn't appear to have matching mounting holes... wondering if I should machine the holes using the mill itself or if I should attach it to the machine some other way
[21:09:14] <micges> good night all
[21:09:21] <fragalot> gnite micges
[21:10:43] <geo01005> skunkworks_: You have a gantry mill, right?
[21:17:03] <mIreland> wdn't be lopez skunkworks, wd it?
[21:17:12] <skunkworks_> no
[21:17:32] <mIreland> darn. world not as small as it cd be :)
[21:17:44] <skunkworks_> geo01005: we have a tantry router
[21:17:47] <skunkworks_> gantry
[21:18:02] <geo01005> How do you do the kinematics on it?
[21:18:57] <skunkworks_> heh - we only have one stepper for each axis.
[21:18:59] <skunkworks_> not an issue
[21:19:40] <geo01005> Ahh, I see.
[21:20:11] <tom3p> yes think of how many motors when asked for how many joints
[21:21:25] <geo01005> hmm, well I suppose I'll just keep my current setup till I see something that tells me otherwise.
[21:23:08] <fragalot> tom3p: nvm just found a way to mount it.. it's not as secure as I'd like it to be, but it's held down by 2 bolts.. instead of the normal 4 :(
[21:24:26] <tom3p> fragalot, mount what?
[21:33:26] <fragalot> tom3p: thingy you clamp the things you want to mill in
[21:33:40] <fragalot> * fragalot alwaays forgets the name
[21:33:41] <fragalot> >.<
[21:33:59] <tom3p> vise?
[21:34:21] <fragalot> yeah
[21:34:32] <fragalot> I bought mine from cnc-sable.nl and they had a 'specially designed' vise :P
[21:34:34] <tom3p> :)
[21:34:37] <fragalot> 20mm height
[21:34:56] <tom3p> oh, i got mine from the guy in taiwan, he makes 'em
[21:35:15] <tom3p> my sable thatis, i got no vise
[21:35:31] <fragalot> yeah, shipping was a bit much
[21:35:38] <fragalot> and he referred me to his dutch partner
[21:36:16] <tom3p> cool, hope you have fun. i still need to add limits and home switches ( and convert to servo )
[21:37:30] <tom3p> bbl
[21:39:18] <mIreland> we're doing a kasuga mill w servo drives, Mesa 5i20 IO board. Need guidance on choosing shaft encoders. there seem to be a lot of options.
[21:43:54] <mIreland> On my own machine I used an encoder that I found on a motor in my junkbox. This time I am ordering parts; I'd like to get something that is tried and true.
[21:45:03] <fragalot> BASTARD
[21:45:06] <fragalot> the table isn't level >.>
[21:55:56] <pfred1> * pfred1 picked up an antique Rotozip today for $5
[21:57:22] <pcw_home> mireland: US Digital seems to be one of the m ore common encoder brands used for retrofits
[21:57:44] <pcw_home> Rotozip?
[21:58:02] <pfred1> pcw_home yes you know one of those drywall cutter things?
[21:58:35] <pfred1> I don't know much about them myself
[21:58:48] <fragalot> >.< my vacuum cleaner just stole my flashlight
[21:59:10] <pfred1> one I got I believe is the first one ever made its not so swift really I don't think I'm sure they made improvements to them over the years
[22:04:17] <fragalot> http://omploader.org/vNGw3eQ/IMG_7068.JPG - slanted table ftl.
[22:04:40] <fragalot> look at the depth of the D and then the depth of the exclamation mark at the right :(
[22:04:52] <pfred1> fragalot this picture is huge!
[22:05:12] <fragalot> sorry :P uploaded it straight from my camera
[22:05:27] <pfred1> it looks good to me
[22:05:43] <pfred1> papa looks a little out of focus but other than that
[22:05:53] <fragalot> it's about 0.2mm deeper
[22:06:03] <pfred1> a whole .2mm?
[22:06:08] <pfred1> I think you can shim it
[22:06:08] <fragalot> yeah :(
[22:06:15] <fragalot> 'shim' ?
[22:06:22] <pfred1> with a scrap of aluminum foil!
[22:06:28] <fragalot> Hmmmmm
[22:06:32] <fragalot> hacky, but might just work.
[22:06:36] <pfred1> really I think it came out great
[22:06:48] <fragalot> it's less great if you see it irl.
[22:07:10] <pfred1> well we used to shim with the foil out of cigarette packs and whatnot
[22:07:13] <fragalot> the D is engraved just deep enough to be nice and shiny, and the papa! is just deep :P
[22:07:40] <pfred1> well here papa is a little blurry so it is hard for me to tell
[22:07:44] <fragalot> pfred1: I could also just cheat and mill off the vise to be straigght? :P
[22:07:53] <pfred1> sure
[22:08:08] <pfred1> but I'd want the bars level
[22:08:30] <pfred1> can't you shim under whatever holds the bars up?
[22:08:40] <fragalot> pfred1: I just took a closer look and the table is actually level. but I can only clamp the vise down with 2 out of 4 bolts
[22:08:53] <pfred1> oh so maybe it is just that?
[22:08:58] <fragalot> yeah
[22:09:18] <fragalot> don't feel like drilling into my table to tap 2 more holes right after getting it though xD
[22:09:45] <pfred1> make a jog that holds the vise that lines up with the holes you have
[22:09:49] <pfred1> jig even
[22:09:58] <pfred1> like a plate the vise mounts to
[22:10:13] <pfred1> an adapter plate
[22:10:47] <pfred1> thats what I'd do
[22:11:04] <fragalot> that would take away quite a bit of the working height
[22:11:13] <fragalot> and I don't exactly have much to begin with
[22:11:19] <pfred1> not if the plate was like a quarter of an inch thick
[22:11:43] <fragalot> still lose 6mm
[22:12:04] <pfred1> or maybe less have to measure how high flush mount screw heads are
[22:12:37] <pfred1> or could tap the plate then grind the bolts flush to it
[22:12:38] <fragalot> it's only got roughly 15mm vertically with the tool in
[22:13:01] <fragalot> best option is to mill out a new hole in the table really :/
[22:13:04] <pfred1> ok the nuse L brackets somehow
[22:13:22] <pfred1> so the vise is still on the table but held by L brackets
[22:13:34] <pfred1> kinda goofy but wouldn't raise it up any
[22:13:54] <pfred1> but wait couldn't attach the brackets to the vise reall
[22:13:55] <fragalot> now I have it set up that I can put things in the vise if needed, or on the table itself if it's too large
[22:14:54] <fragalot> L brackets would ruin that, as I only have 2 rows of holes on either side of the table
[22:15:41] <pfred1> you could drill new holes in the vise that line up with your table holes
[22:16:43] <fragalot> no, they're spaced just where the rods connecting the vise to it's other end are
[22:16:46] <fragalot> it's a weird vise :P
[22:16:54] <fragalot> as you can see in the picture
[22:17:16] <pfred1> I made something like it many years ago its not so weird
[22:17:44] <fragalot> it's quite neat - but sortof weird as the clamping bits of it are just floating
[22:18:31] <pfred1> the movable jaw rides on the bars right?
[22:18:51] <fragalot> yes
[22:18:59] <fragalot> there are 2 jaws that move
[22:19:23] <pfred1> 2? its not just that piece in the middle?
[22:19:28] <fragalot> 2 blocks that screw onto the table, middle 2 ride towards eachother
[22:19:38] <pfred1> ah it is self centering
[22:19:41] <fragalot> yes
[22:19:45] <mIreland> I'm finding a blizzard of different encoder types. I know I want .25" thru hole, and differental outs; can anybody help me get oriented?
[22:21:03] <mIreland> If this is an RTFM situation just say so...
[22:21:24] <pfred1> it is beyond my quesspertise
[22:21:55] <mIreland> it was simpler than expected when I solved it before.
[22:21:56] <fragalot> same
[22:22:53] <mIreland> wondering in particular how many cycles per rev is optimal for way servos on a knee mill
[22:23:07] <mIreland> tttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt
[22:23:16] <mIreland> cat says hi
[22:23:21] <pfred1> doesn't it depend on the resolution you want?
[22:25:28] <mIreland> yes it does. but overkill is pricey. the old man I'm helping to do the retrofit is steering toward 2096/rev but I think that is unneeded
[22:26:00] <mIreland> I had the idea that this was a very common kind of question.
[22:26:44] <pfred1> mIreland what is the TPI?
[22:26:52] <fragalot> anyone here know a good source for V-shaped bits?
[22:27:32] <mIreland> Usually 5 on a knee mill; .200 per rev
[22:30:04] <pfred1> 0.00009542 each count
[22:30:17] <pfred1> seems a little extreme
[22:30:32] <mIreland> yes it duz
[22:30:47] <pfred1> breathe on the machine and watch it change position
[22:31:56] <pfred1> I should talk my machine is like 0.0000625 per step or less
[22:32:50] <fragalot> lol
[22:33:17] <pfred1> wait I think I missed a decimal point
[22:33:42] <pfred1> I divided steps per rev into 1 but its 10 revs an inch
[22:33:50] <pcw_home> A servo system needs counts to throw away (best tracking will be +- a few to many counts depending on tuning)
[22:34:12] <fragalot> /20/20
[22:34:14] <fragalot> oops
[22:36:16] <mIreland> too much resolution cannot hurt. I had the idea that this was a very common sort of retrofit
[22:36:41] <pfred1> I'm sure it is if you have a knee mill
[22:36:51] <pcw_home> if 2048 cycles = 8192 counts per rev thats probably overkill for a normal mill
[22:36:53] <pcw_home> but more counts is better for getting a better velocity signal from the encoder
[22:36:54] <pfred1> * pfred1 just has a benchtop ;(
[22:36:54] <pcw_home>
[22:37:57] <pcw_home> Velocity signal will be important if you have torque or voltage mode amps
[22:37:58] <pcw_home> less important if you have velocity mode servo drives
[22:38:08] <pfred1> About 37,900 results knee mill servo cnc build log
[22:40:37] <pfred1> spagetti! http://www.electronicsam.com/images/control.jpg
[22:40:55] <pfred1> I'd lay good odds that puppy ain't never gonna run again
[22:42:00] <pfred1> I like wiring stuff up but that no way
[22:42:26] <fragalot> pfred1: I've had to do that once and was only allowed to use unmarked white wire
[22:42:26] <fragalot> >.,
[22:42:54] <pfred1> that looks like the phone guy took a wrong turn
[22:43:28] <pfred1> why didn't they let you use wire rings?
[22:43:54] <madsci42> might anyone in here be able to tell me what i might have done wrong to cause configure --enable-run-in-place to result in the error: "Kernel version string not found"
[22:44:32] <pfred1> have the kernel source installed?
[22:44:59] <pfred1> du -h /usr/src/linux
[22:45:18] <madsci42> yeah - a previous build worked on the same system - then upgraded to 2.6.34 and rtai 3.8 - got all that built now rebuild emc fails
[22:45:29] <madsci42> oh free space?
[22:45:39] <pfred1> thats df
[22:45:44] <madsci42> hah
[22:45:45] <pfred1> du is disk usage
[22:45:47] <madsci42> yeah 0
[22:46:34] <madsci42> hmm
[22:46:43] <madsci42> i still have lots of free space on all my volumes
[22:46:47] <pfred1> you'd think the kernel version is in the source
[22:47:38] <madsci42> well yeah - the previous line before the error is: checking for /usr/src/linux/include/linux/version.h... yes
[22:48:30] <madsci42> maybe i misconfigured something in the kernel regarding version information?
[22:48:38] <mIreland> This machine is quite old. WestAmp model#a6513-10es servo drives.
[22:49:59] <mIreland> These appear to have been very common at one time. Does anyone here happen to know if they are velocity mode, voltage mode, or torque mode?
[22:50:03] <pfred1> * pfred1 wants to see what is missing from his elcheapo Rotozip
[22:51:46] <pfred1> new toy :)
[22:52:06] <madsci42> i was thinking of trying one of those on my gantry machine
[22:52:48] <pfred1> I just got one for $5
[22:53:00] <pfred1> came with 3 bits
[22:53:03] <madsci42> that sounds like the right model to try with hehe
[22:53:25] <pfred1> I always wanted one but could never justify spending the money on it
[22:53:32] <pfred1> but hey for $5 I'm in!
[22:53:48] <madsci42> no doubt - i have to start watching the craigs/kijiji lists
[22:53:52] <pfred1> I had $5 worth of fun just taking it all apart and cleaning it out
[22:54:04] <pfred1> it was packed with drywall
[22:54:49] <pfred1> I bought this one at a church sale
[22:55:09] <pfred1> church down the road once a year rents spots to whoever for $15 a spot
[22:55:19] <pfred1> so its like a one day flea market
[22:55:27] <madsci42> oh i see - forgot linux is a symlink so thats why du reported 0 there
[22:55:51] <pfred1> hmm funny it didn't follow it
[22:56:08] <madsci42> with the trailing backslash it follows it
[22:57:14] <pfred1> well that was the obvious guess I'm sure plenty try to build without sources in place
[22:57:17] <madsci42> er frontslash
[22:57:41] <madsci42> yeah i could see myself forgetting one of these days
[22:58:05] <madsci42> the whole tree is there from the build i did last night
[22:58:23] <madsci42> and that kernel is now running with rtai which passed tests
[22:59:02] <pfred1> that was my next question are you running kernel for sources
[22:59:44] <pfred1> oh I'm jealous newer rotozips have speed control
[22:59:51] <madsci42> yeah - could it be because its 2.6.34?
[23:00:22] <madsci42> luxuries :-)
[23:00:47] <pfred1> afaict this is the original one I picked up
[23:01:09] <pfred1> its an scs 01
[23:01:25] <pfred1> so that'd make it a classic I suppose :)
[23:01:45] <pfred1> really when i grabbed it I knew nothing about the things
[23:01:53] <pfred1> all I knew was it was $5
[23:02:34] <pfred1> old tools are like lost dogs to me i just have to bring them home when I find them
[23:02:56] <pfred1> and my garage looks it too!
[23:03:59] <fragalot> I asked before, but does anyone know a good resource for V-bits ?
[23:04:16] <pfred1> fragalot I did like 2 weeks ago but I forgot
[23:04:27] <fragalot> >.<
[23:04:47] <pfred1> yeah I didn't think that'd help you out too much which was why I didn't say so before
[23:05:09] <fragalot> lol
[23:05:53] <pfred1> now I'm looking if I see the name again I may remember it
[23:08:34] <madsci42> are you in canada frag? theres a supplier here i deal with that carrys them
[23:08:40] <pfred1> I'm gonna die of a heart attack someday when my air compressor comes on!
[23:09:24] <madsci42> princess-auto sometimes has them in the surplus section too - i got a box full of carbide ones for like $5ish
[23:10:10] <pfred1> hmm this place had the visited color: http://www.precisebits.com/products/carbidebits/scoreengrave.asp
[23:10:16] <pfred1> that might have been it
[23:10:26] <KimK> mIreland: Sorry I'm just reading this, still interested in encoder selection info?
[23:11:27] <pfred1> suckers aren't cheap!
[23:17:40] <madsci42> i had the exact same emc tarball running with 2.6.30 and rtai371 last night - i should have quit while i was ahead
[23:18:00] <pfred1> should have backed up before you changed
[23:18:56] <madsci42> yeah... its a lab rat machine so not a big deal to roll everything back - but im too stubborn now that i got the rtai3.8 running
[23:18:57] <pfred1> ha ha so there are different collets for the rotozip
[23:19:17] <KimK> mIreland: Also, I'm doing a pair of Kasugas for a friend, I've got one in progress now, working in 3-axis, planning to add 4th & 5th. Yes, it has Westamp drives (true velocity mode, with a tach gen). Does yours have the Dana/Summit bolt-on tool changer?
[23:20:42] <madsci42> i wonder how good the bearings are in those rotozips
[23:21:15] <madsci42> they seem to take a beating well
[23:21:50] <pfred1> the front bearing in mine don't seem quite brand new anymore the back one seems pretty good though
[23:24:08] <KimK> mIreland: You might also be interested in Kirk Wallace's Shizuoka http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/Shizuoka/ A Shizuoka is somewhat similar to a Kasuga, although Kirk's had a Bandit with steppers instead of servos.
[23:24:30] <pfred1> it does look like they made a lot of improvments over the years
[23:26:22] <mIreland> KimK: i was away a minute. I am indeed interested in discussing it.
[23:27:03] <mIreland> We have no internet at the shop, so I can't just look, but it does have a toolchanger
[23:27:43] <KimK> mIreland: Hi, nice to meet a fellow Kasuga retrofitter/upgrader, lol.
[23:28:23] <mIreland> nice to meet you too.
[23:28:33] <mIreland> where on earth are you?
[23:29:21] <madsci42> oh cool - i just looked at that link - like a machined encoder wheel
[23:29:38] <KimK> mIreland: As far as encoders, I recommend the USDigital E6 series if you have room for a 2" disc, and the E5 series if you only have room for a 1" disk. But be sure to get the "D" option (differential outputs).
[23:30:19] <madsci42> I just got a bunch of USdig encoder parts
[23:31:38] <mIreland> I remember KWallace did a Hardinge lathe as well... that's the same machine that I have succeeded in retrofitting
[23:34:00] <mIreland> He did steppers on that one too. Radek helped me do the upgrade using the existing servos. I'm hoping to pull that trick off again :)
[23:34:46] <madsci42> my manual bp clone will be my next victim, when i can decide on a decent way to drive the quill
[23:36:02] <mIreland> This machine promises to be a bigger challenge, but we've seen all it's parts wiggle. I'm sure we will succeed.
[23:36:51] <KimK> mIreland: Since I used Mesa, as you did (5i22 here), I had no worries about exceeding maximum count speed, I don't remember the calculations, but I ordered the highest resolution E6 they had, 2500 line (10k count). They fit and work fine.
[23:38:24] <mIreland> You have anticipated my next query. there are tachs on the servos i take it?
[23:39:05] <mIreland> I hope these old boys didn't ruin anything... they have the X axis drive pulled apart.
[23:41:05] <KimK> Yes, classic Westamp, DC brush armature, with DC tach gen velocity feedback, and (now) encoder position feedback (formerly resolvers, but peculiarly geared, not 1-to-1, so out they went.)
[23:41:57] <fragalot> madsci42: belgium
[23:42:29] <pfred1> fragalot you're in belgium?
[23:42:47] <madsci42> ah
[23:42:54] <madsci42> long walk :)
[23:43:34] <pfred1> if I was in Belgium I'd walk heck I'd crawl to Chimay
[23:43:52] <pfred1> no matter how I got there I'd crawl out of that place
[23:44:10] <mIreland> glad to jettison resolvers. on my Hardinge I used resolver converters; not cheap.
[23:44:45] <pfred1> belgian abby ales are my favorite brews in the whole wide world
[23:44:54] <madsci42> mm
[23:44:56] <KimK> mIreland: re: X axis drive pulled apart: Do you mean the Westamp PCB's or the drive motor?
[23:45:18] <mIreland> Drive motor. PCBs intact, and one spare.
[23:46:19] <mIreland> I talked them through the process of jogging them around over the phone, and all axes worked.
[23:46:57] <fragalot> why are engraving bits so damn expensive :(
[23:47:12] <mIreland> Now I'm down in SD to work on it, they've got some sort of floating ground issue; axes walk when powered at present
[23:47:15] <pfred1> fragalot because everyone loves money
[23:47:21] <fragalot> ohwell, nearly 2am, I should probably go to bed
[23:47:23] <fragalot> gnite!
[23:47:26] <madsci42> because you need them - they are only cheaply available when you dont ;-)
[23:47:46] <madsci42> gnite
[23:47:49] <pfred1> it looks like you could just regrind a regular drill bit
[23:48:04] <madsci42> you can get carbide rod pretty cheap
[23:48:16] <pfred1> be hard to make the initial spiral in it
[23:48:18] <KimK> mIreland: OK. Well, now's your chance, while you're in there, work on the commutator if it needs it, check/replace shaft bearings, general cleaning inside, etc. (SD?)
[23:48:29] <mIreland> San Diego
[23:49:01] <KimK> Ah, OK. I'm currently in the Minneapolis area.
[23:49:26] <mIreland> Minnesnowta! I love it up there.
[23:49:38] <pfred1> I hate snow
[23:49:42] <KimK> The pair of Kasugas are in Iowa, though.
[23:49:52] <pfred1> iowa?
[23:50:03] <pfred1> I didn't think there was anything but corn fields in iowa
[23:50:27] <mIreland> where are u pfred1?
[23:50:35] <pfred1> delawhere?
[23:50:55] <pfred1> we got a lot of corn fields too
[23:51:02] <mIreland> long crawl from Killafornia.
[23:51:06] <KimK> pfred1: Ha, people would think so, wouldn't they?
[23:51:31] <pfred1> but at least we got a bay and some beaches too
[23:51:41] <fragalot> the ones I'm looking for don't have a spiral
[23:52:06] <fragalot> looks like the rod has just been cut into a V shape, and then cut in half.
[23:52:13] <pfred1> fragalot what sort of a cut are you trying to do?
[23:52:21] <fragalot> PCB
[23:52:33] <pfred1> thats what the link I posted was for
[23:52:33] <KimK> pfred1: There is considerable manufacturing in Eastern Iowa. (What there is still left that passes for manufacturing in this country, anyway.)
[23:52:52] <pfred1> http://www.precisebits.com/products/carbidebits/scoreengrave.asp
[23:53:29] <fragalot> pfred1: 'not optimised for PCB engraving'
[23:53:29] <mIreland> SanDiego had a lot of manufacturing. Now ppl are literally giving mills away.
[23:53:35] <pfred1> Applications Print circuit trace isolation
[23:53:49] <pfred1> fragalot read further that is for the 30 degree tip
[23:53:55] <KimK> mIreland: Sad, isn't it?
[23:54:34] <mIreland> I didn't mind so much while I was still employed. I outfitted a pretty decent personal shop with my wages.
[23:54:37] <pfred1> its great if you need a mill
[23:54:43] <fragalot> pfred1: I think i'm gonna check how much they are in wholesale first lol
[23:55:06] <pfred1> fragalot but they look just like sharpened twist bits to me
[23:55:47] <madsci42> the ones i have are like a cone with vertical ridges, very shallow spiral
[23:55:51] <fragalot> pfred1: http://www.oracal.md/oracal-eng/reklama/img/engravingbitsetforsteel2.jpg
[23:55:56] <pfred1> personally I htink the days of mass production are numbers the future is customized goods
[23:55:58] <fragalot> that's the type I use now
[23:56:30] <KimK> I know of a couple of older wire EDMs that would be great EMC2 retrofit candidates, and I'd like to do them, but money's tight, no place to put them, etc. "Whaddya gonna do?"
[23:56:31] <pfred1> fragalot looks easy enough to make to me
[23:56:41] <madsci42> for pcb you probably want them sharp to try and minimize the burrs i would imagine (never tried milling pcb)
[23:56:44] <mIreland> KimK: are you in here a lot? is this the best way to find you?
[23:56:54] <fragalot> pfred1: PCB's really rape those bits fast.
[23:57:12] <pfred1> fragalot use solid carbide then
[23:57:14] <madsci42> need carbide
[23:57:27] <fragalot> 'ndeed
[23:58:04] <mIreland> It is terribly encouraging to find someone working on the same machine. The toolchanger is the neatest kind I've ever seen.
[23:58:34] <KimK> mIreland: Like that "Our Hours" sign that small businesses post, "...I'm here all the time, except when I'm somewhere else, but I should be here then too."