#emc | Logs for 2010-06-02

[02:18:52] <Endeavour> Greetings
[02:35:17] <cradek> hi
[02:52:14] <Dave911> Jymmm: No.. they actually still make siding that you need to paint.. I had to replace some T1-11 siding, grooved rough sawn plywood. It's very durable actually. Paint it every 10-15 years and that is about it... The owner 30 years ago found some bad stuff so it hasn't lasted as long as it should have..
[02:54:07] <Dave911> jthornton: I can't think of a better reason to be on your roof in 90 degree weather ... tree branches in your roof ... not good..
[03:39:56] <Endeavour> Hello
[03:40:04] <Endeavour> Anyone here use the Fireball CNC any?
[03:40:17] <morfic> neat amd mobos out there, with on board HD4200 with dedicated 128MB sideport ram on board, so no evil system ram snagging, then again, a pci-e would be like what? $50? not much savings, but less parts, better airflow?
[04:33:50] <Jymmm> If anythign you plug into a generator gets fried, what could be the cause?
[04:34:53] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: ping
[04:35:04] <SWPadnos> ya
[04:35:05] <Endeavour> Hullo.
[04:35:20] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: If anythign you plug into a generator gets fried, what could be the cause?
[04:35:35] <SWPadnos> over or under voltage maybe
[04:36:15] <Jymmm> Since it's AC, is there a regulator in a generator, or is that the RPM of the motor?
[04:36:36] <SWPadnos> depends on the generator
[04:36:43] <Jymmm> cheap one
[04:36:53] <Jymmm> 1200w
[04:37:19] <SWPadnos> I don't know, it depends on whether it's a gas engine connected to an AC motor (in which case RPM matters), or whether it's an electronic inverter
[04:37:33] <SWPadnos> which is another potential cause of problems - non-sinewave output
[04:37:46] <SWPadnos> but harmonics could fritz some devices
[04:38:04] <Jymmm> explain?
[04:38:23] <SWPadnos> err, that was supposed to say "big harmonics can fritz ..."
[04:38:45] <Jymmm> how do harmonics apply to a generator?
[04:38:49] <elmo40> ahh, nothing like things going on the fritz...
[04:38:53] <SWPadnos> close to squarewave output means there are high energies in the odd harmonics, which may not get filtered out
[04:39:15] <SWPadnos> well, you said the things you plug in get fried, not the generator
[04:39:26] <Jymmm> correct
[04:39:41] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: Smeone is selling it, I'm just wondering If I could fix it
[04:39:42] <SWPadnos> an AC generator could use a DC bus and a shitty electronic inverter to generate AC
[04:40:01] <SWPadnos> so the output could be square waves instead of sine waves
[04:40:27] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: Would the fix have anythign todo with windings?
[04:40:35] <SWPadnos> no idea
[04:40:46] <SWPadnos> it depends on the design of the generator
[04:40:52] <SWPadnos> maybe it's the engine throttle
[04:41:00] <SWPadnos> or speed sensor (if there is one)
[04:41:13] <SWPadnos> or a faulty output voltage monitor
[04:41:16] <Jymmm> is a speed sensor something simple?
[04:41:22] <SWPadnos> or it's a 220V generator and the guy doesn't know it
[04:41:46] <SWPadnos> depends on the design ;)
[04:42:12] <SWPadnos> in a car engine, it's usually something that screws into the engine/transmission somewhere, and has an electrical connector attached to it
[04:42:23] <Jymmm> whats the diff between 2 and 4 stroke engine?
[04:42:31] <Jymmm> have to add oil to the fuel?
[04:44:00] <SWPadnos> no idea
[04:44:15] <elmo40> Jymmm: 'most' generators are not generators. they are alternators. generators is an old-school term back in the day when cars generated DC current. Now, everything is producing AC current. Plus, RPM is not all that much of a factor in modern portable 'generators', since everything goes through a sin-filter to create a constant 60Hz. Low RPM would create less Watts, that's all.
[04:44:20] <SWPadnos> well, I have some idea, but wikipedia will explain it better
[04:44:55] <elmo40> Jymmm: 2-strokes use oil-fuel mix
[04:44:59] <elmo40> 4-strokes have valves
[04:45:14] <Jymmm> elmo40: Ok, I thought it was something like that.
[04:46:04] <Jymmm> I wonder if $25 would be worth playing with
[04:47:46] <elmo40> is it 2-stroke?
[04:47:58] <Jymmm> yeah, 1200W
[04:48:07] <Jymmm> I'll assume that's peak
[04:48:13] <elmo40> dude, give me the model, make, approx age
[04:48:21] <elmo40> yes, peak. as in 'burst' :P
[04:49:03] <Jymmm> elmo40: Power Star Plus 1200W 2 stroke "2hp" , but I can't find the company, manual, parts lists etc
[04:49:15] <Jymmm> nfc on age.
[04:49:31] <elmo40> k
[04:49:52] <Jymmm> Even a parts list would be nice.
[04:50:05] <Jymmm> But I can't een find the damn company
[04:51:16] <elmo40> 40lbs?
[04:51:23] <Jymmm> probably
[04:51:24] <elmo40> blogs say it is very light
[04:51:29] <elmo40> 2-strokes are lighter engines
[04:51:33] <elmo40> less moving parts
[04:51:56] <elmo40> but more tempermental (sp)
[04:52:08] <Jymmm> why is that?
[04:58:08] <elmo40> valving the carb is finicky
[04:58:21] <elmo40> when I used to race motorcycles mine was a 125cc 2-stroke
[04:58:42] <elmo40> if the temperature went up 5deg C I would have to re-jet the carb
[04:58:52] <elmo40> mind you, that was a GP race bike
[04:58:55] <Jymmm> O_o
[04:59:16] <elmo40> my street version, 180cc twin, was less picky, but still picky when it was humid!
[04:59:40] <Jymmm> are all 2stroke that fininky?
[05:00:53] <elmo40> depends on many factors. carb size. engine layout. exhaust system. how worn it is.
[05:01:01] <elmo40> you want to tinker with it? or use it for real?
[05:01:18] <Jymmm> Both
[05:01:26] <elmo40> :P
[05:01:33] <Jymmm> Tinker to learn and fix it to use it
[05:01:34] <elmo40> I think you can buy them 'new' for $100
[05:01:58] <Jymmm> link?
[05:02:32] <morfic> your 125cc, would you rev it much and more "drive it with the clutch"?
[05:02:35] <elmo40> http://www.shopping.com/-powerstar+1200+watt+generator
[05:02:38] <elmo40> something similar
[05:02:43] <elmo40> 2-strokes all over
[05:02:51] <elmo40> Jymmm: where you at?
[05:02:58] <Jymmm> NorCal
[05:03:09] <elmo40> the 125 GP bike? redline was 15,000 RPM :D
[05:03:19] <elmo40> Jymmm: aren't 2-strokes banned in Ca?
[05:03:33] <Jymmm> could be, nfc
[05:03:46] <elmo40> lol
[05:03:54] <elmo40> go ask CARB
[05:04:04] <elmo40> they will tell you to crank it yourself!
[05:04:27] <Jymmm> ?
[05:04:42] <elmo40> morfic, the GP bike was made for the tarmac
[05:04:48] <elmo40> Jymmm: how old are you ?
[05:05:08] <Jymmm> elmo40: what does that have to do with generators?
[05:05:30] <elmo40> your replies make you sound young. as if you know nothing about your surroundings...
[05:05:33] <elmo40> or engines
[05:05:38] <elmo40> just odd, that's all
[05:07:15] <Jymmm> elmo40: And if I said that the gear you're using it causing broadcast traffic and you should vlan it with an ldap backend you would know what I was talking about?
[05:07:42] <morfic> elmo40: i never drove a 2-cycle, brother-in-law drove a 250cc motocross bike, he always complained how the 125cc had no guts and you had to work too much with the clutch while keeping them revved up, just wondering
[05:08:27] <elmo40> morfic this is what my bike originally looked like: http://qurl.org/Y01
[05:09:21] <elmo40> motocross and tarmac are two different beasts
[05:09:36] <elmo40> in my case you use the clutch once, when you start.
[05:09:48] <morfic> at least it's a good brand, none of this Suzukawonda stuff
[05:10:49] <morfic> * morfic misses his XT500 :/
[05:11:46] <Jymmm> elmo40: Did you find the company by chance?
[05:13:05] <elmo40> the generator company? no
[05:13:18] <elmo40> and yes, about yoru network traffic. I understand 80% of it.
[05:13:32] <Jymmm> elmo40: so you know how to setup a vlan?
[05:15:20] <elmo40> according to wiki, it doesn't sound all that difficult
[05:15:26] <elmo40> limiting in bandwidth, though
[05:15:50] <Jymmm> elmo40: So you don't know. so does that make you young?
[05:18:27] <Jymmm> Damn, i can't even find who sells this thing
[05:21:08] <Jymmm> Wonder if you bought a candy bar at a gas station you got a free generator
[05:21:10] <elmo40> Jymmm: I know enough about networking to manage my office.
[05:21:35] <elmo40> I have taken the odd MCSE course ;)
[05:21:46] <elmo40> and cisco class.
[05:21:49] <elmo40> I can manage
[05:26:55] <elmo40> why vlan instead vpn?
[05:27:45] <Jymmm> I actually said it in my original statement, too much broadcast traffic. You would isolate it with a VLAN.
[05:28:09] <Jymmm> VPN is just to access a remote network across an unsecure connection.
[05:28:36] <elmo40> for vlan you need two nic cards?
[05:28:51] <Jymmm> AH HA... they were sold at Kragen auto parts - bastrds!
[05:29:14] <elmo40> VLANs must share bandwidth
[05:29:24] <Jymmm> and a 2stroke is LOUDER than a 4stroke. That would drive me nuts starting it to test, then stop, etc.
[05:29:49] <Jymmm> elmo40: What does that have to do with anything? So would a VPN.
[05:30:00] <Jymmm> That's not the purpose of a VLAN
[05:30:49] <Jymmm> you could do it with multiple nic's, but a managed switch would be far better.
[05:30:53] <elmo40> Jymmm: sound level is arguable. depends on many factors. a good air box and decently sized muffler on a 2-stroke can make it just as quiet as a 4-stroke. but yes, they are generally louder ;)
[05:32:07] <Jymmm> I think I'd rather find a Champion Generator instead.
[05:32:53] <Jymmm> I have way too many projects as it is!
[05:35:00] <Endeavour> Anyone here have a Fireball CNC?
[05:47:27] <elmo40> such as one of these? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Fda-rVhqFg
[05:48:56] <fragalot> Mornin'
[06:19:27] <fragalot> /30
[07:43:49] <Dave911> Jymmm: Tractor Supply sells Champion generators ... about $300 locally for the 3000 watt unit. I just saw that Walmart is now selling them also.. but they look more expensive there? Don't know why..
[07:44:11] <Dave911> They have Tractor Supply stores in CA also ....
[07:44:23] <Jymmm> Never seen one yet in calif
[07:44:57] <Jymmm> oh, in KillJoy
[07:55:41] <Dave911> They tend to put them near smaller towns ... well not huge towns
[07:56:00] <Jymmm> In the country, not the big cities
[07:56:21] <Dave911> http://www.tractorsupply.com/StoreByStateView?storeId=10551&catalogId=10001
[07:57:10] <Dave911> If they don't have what you want on hand... they will usually order it and ship it in if they keep it in their warehouses for no charge
[07:57:59] <Dave911> I know they are selling those gennys here for $300. I just saw them there last week and was surprised as I haven't seen them carry Champion before.
[07:58:20] <Dave911> For the $ - really hard to beat...
[07:58:50] <Jymmm> Yeah, Lowes has one the is $299 3000W/3500W AND an hour meter and wheel kit
[07:59:00] <Jymmm> But the damn thing is "unavailable"
[07:59:10] <Jymmm> http://www.lowes.com/pd_106885-87012-40026_0_?newSearch=true&catalogId=10051&productId=3218343&Ntt=106885&N=0&langId=-1&y=3&x=40&storeId=10151&Ntk=i_products&ddkey=http:ProductDisplay
[08:01:20] <Jymmm> g'Night
[08:01:44] <Dave911> good night
[08:17:23] <alex_joni> good morning
[08:17:58] <micges_work> good morning
[08:55:27] <bricofoy> hi
[11:14:04] <bricofoy> Is there a way to moveat high speed to a point, but with all axes at their max speed, no matter if one axe finish its move before the others
[11:15:00] <Valen> I think homing might work that way
[11:21:28] <bricofoy> yes it's right
[11:22:06] <bricofoy> homing with the same HOME_SEQUENCE nimber for all axes work that way
[11:22:21] <bricofoy> but at quite low speed
[11:22:36] <bricofoy> I need to do the same at max speed
[11:23:33] <bricofoy> well, it's not something I must do, but if there is a simple way....
[11:24:19] <bricofoy> the thing is my Z axis is really SLOWER than X and Y, so when I do g0 x0y0z0, it takes a LONG time
[11:25:03] <bricofoy> I can do Go x0y0 first then g0 z0 but if there was a way to do this in one time...
[11:26:02] <bricofoy> as the machine as a large size (1.5meters on X and 2 meters on Y), I've some time to gain with this
[11:36:11] <jthornton> on a G0 move all axes programmed will arrive at the end point at the same time
[11:37:17] <bricofoy> yes so the movement on X and Y is very slow beacause my Z axis is very slow
[11:38:54] <bricofoy> I need to move all axis at full speed, so with separated movoments
[11:38:58] <bricofoy> movements
[11:39:19] <bricofoy> but at the same time to save time
[12:14:26] <herron> bricofoy, it wont be any faster than the slowest axis so g0x0y0z0 is the fastest
[12:14:44] <herron> but ther are all at the same time
[12:33:30] <Jymmm> 3KW, hour meter, wheel kit http://www.lowes.com/pd_106885-87012-40026_0_?newSearch=true&catalogId=10051&productId=3218343&Ntt=106885&N=0&langId=-1&y=3&x=40&storeId=10151&Ntk=i_products&ddkey=http:ProductDisplay -vs- 3500W, no wheel kit, no hour meter, single outlet http://www.tractorsupply.com/generators-accessories/gas-diesel-generators/champion-power-equipment-trade-3500-w-portable-gasoline-generator-4434023
[12:38:51] <skunkworks> http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/category_generators+portable-generators+1-000-4-999-watts
[12:40:42] <Jymmm> skunkworks: I don't see any 3000w+ for $299 there =)
[12:42:19] <Jymmm> skunkworks: and many of those are NOT FOR SALE IN CALIFORNIA =)
[12:42:55] <Jymmm> skunkworks: You polluting bastard! LOL
[12:43:03] <skunkworks> heh ;)
[12:43:51] <Jymmm> While it might seem a pita, if it's calif approved, it's also good for use in national parks too
[12:44:11] <skunkworks> I suppose. makes sense.
[12:45:27] <Jymmm> Ah, yes... The birds, the trees, the flow of the river, and THE OBNOXIOUS SOUND OF A FSCKING GENERATOR RUNNING THE AC/STEREO AT FULL BLAST/MARGARITTA BLENDER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[12:46:04] <Jymmm> But I guess it would keep the bears away
[12:47:14] <Jymmm> skunkworks: But back to the choice I gave before... Also the 2nd one is 110/220, though I don't know how much use I would actually have for that.
[12:47:34] <skunkworks> 220 gives you options of powering a house easier...
[12:48:00] <Jymmm> oh, with a transfer switch you mean?
[12:48:05] <skunkworks> yes
[12:48:12] <Jymmm> I didn't consider that.
[12:48:20] <skunkworks> or can't you do that in CA ;)
[12:48:33] <Jymmm> who the hell knows *shrug*
[12:48:48] <Jymmm> Not w/o a permit and 35 inspectors =)
[12:49:09] <skunkworks> heh - well - you don't want to electricute the linemen.
[12:49:20] <Jymmm> who says?
[12:49:50] <Jymmm> California vs. Texas
[12:49:50] <Jymmm> Governor is jogging with his dog along a nature trail. A
[12:49:51] <Jymmm> coyote jumps out and attacks dog.
[12:49:51] <skunkworks> * I assume you don't want to electricute a lineman
[12:49:52] <Jymmm> California :
[12:49:54] <Jymmm> #1. Governor starts to intervene, reflects upon the movie "Bambi"
[12:49:56] <Jymmm> and then realizes he should stop; the coyote is only doing what is
[12:49:58] <Jymmm> natural.
[12:50:00] <Jymmm> #2. He calls animal control. Animal control captures coyote and
[12:50:02] <Jymmm> spends $200 testing it for diseases and $500 upon relocating it.
[12:50:04] <Jymmm> #3. He calls veterinarian. Vet collects dead dog and spends $200
[12:50:06] <Jymmm> testing it for diseases.
[12:50:08] <Jymmm> #4. Governor goes to hospital and spends $3,500 getting checked for
[12:50:10] <Jymmm> diseases from the coyote and on getting bite wound bandaged.
[12:50:12] <Jymmm> #5. Running trail gets shut down for 6 months while wildlife
[12:50:14] <Jymmm> services conduct a $100,000 survey to make sure the area is clear
[12:50:16] <Jymmm> of dangerous animals.
[12:50:18] <Jymmm> #6. Governor spends $50,000 of state funds implementing a "coyote
[12:50:20] <Jymmm> awareness" program for residents of the area.
[12:50:22] <Jymmm> #7. State legislature spends $2 million investigating how to better
[12:50:24] <Jymmm> handle rabies and how to possibly eradicate the disease.
[12:50:26] <Jymmm> #8. Governor's security agent is fired for not stopping the attack
[12:50:28] <Jymmm> and for letting the Governor intervene.
[12:50:30] <Jymmm> #9. Cost: $75,000 to train new security agent.
[12:50:32] <Jymmm> #10. PETA protests the coyote relocation and files suit against the
[12:50:34] <Jymmm> state.
[12:50:36] <Jymmm>
[12:50:38] <Jymmm> Texas :
[12:50:40] <Jymmm> #1. Governor shoots coyote and keeps jogging. Governor has spent
[12:50:42] <Jymmm> $0.50 on a .45 ACP hollow point cartridge. Buzzards eat dead
[12:50:44] <Jymmm> coyote.
[12:50:46] <Jymmm> Any wonder why California is broke????
[12:50:50] <Jymmm> Fine, no I don't want to
[12:52:13] <herron> hmm my genny may fail your regulations 440v 3phase 60A per phase :)
[12:52:46] <Jymmm> Many do, it's an emissions thing
[12:53:59] <Jymmm> * Jymmm kicks skunkworks in the shins for making 220v sense!
[12:54:44] <herron> I should sell mine as I dont use it these days
[12:57:38] <Jymmm> and get a smaller one?
[12:57:57] <Jymmm> These Champion's seem to have good ratings.
[12:58:54] <herron> its a biggun http://www.collection.archivist.info/showresult.php?errlev=0&srcdata=title&searchv4page=1&searchstr=generator+PD&srcdata=title&Type=PD&Accn_no=4076&dir=2005%2F2005_05_03_Generator&file=P4231086.JPG&subject=13355
[12:59:30] <herron> we used to use it at a museum when we had no mains connection
[13:00:11] <Jymmm> herron: DUDE! Just add wheels... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBTU2FUygKk
[13:01:28] <skunkworks> Jymmm: make your own... ;) http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/category_generators+generator-heads
[13:02:02] <Jymmm> skunkworks: No thanks =)
[13:08:19] <Jymmm> skunkworks: I wonder if this is something dumb like shove the wire in the spark plug boot http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200319029_200319029
[13:08:52] <Jymmm> "no batery required" ???
[13:18:18] <Jymmm> skunkworks: I was RTFM that 120/220 generator... at 220V it's only 15A per leg
[13:18:36] <Jymmm> err 14.6A
[13:19:39] <Jymmm> 30A via RV Receptacle, and 20A via standard 20A outlet
[13:24:27] <skunkworks> I think they are saying 'no battery requred' and in the equipment you are putting it on doesn't need a battery. The hour meter does.
[13:24:57] <skunkworks> (but it probably lasts forever on a watch battery_
[13:25:07] <SWPadnos> I have a friend who made himself a generator that way
[13:25:32] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: with a $40 hour meter... impressive
[13:25:44] <SWPadnos> no, I think he left the hour meter off
[13:25:51] <Jymmm> I would have used a lawnmower engine
[13:25:51] <SWPadnos> got most of the major parts on eBay
[13:26:14] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: Any reason WHY he made one?
[13:26:40] <SWPadnos> because it was much less expensive for him to make one of the size and reliability he wanted than it would have been to buy one
[13:27:02] <Jymmm> you rememebr how big?
[13:27:17] <SWPadnos> I think he spent under $500, and got a solid diesel (or biodiesel/corn oil) 7-10 kW generator
[13:27:26] <Jymmm> ah, ok
[13:27:40] <SWPadnos> I don't remember the exact size, but I think the engine was 10-15 HP
[13:27:58] <Jymmm> a whole house generator basically
[13:28:06] <SWPadnos> yep, that was the idea
[13:28:40] <SWPadnos> and it came in handy the last week of April, when there was an 18" snowstorm and he lost power for 2 days
[13:28:44] <Jymmm> I just want something that can run the window AC, frig, freezer, heater, etc
[13:29:04] <SWPadnos> how many things at the same time?
[13:29:51] <Jymmm> Well, doubt a 3kw could do all of that at the same time, but at least one major appliance and fan/lights
[13:30:36] <Jymmm> then flip to the next appliance 60-90 minutes later.
[13:31:08] <SWPadnos> a mid to high range AC is about 1.5 kW (that's like 8000-12000 BTU)
[13:31:36] <SWPadnos> I don't know what a fridge takes when it's actually on, probably in the 1-1.5 kW range
[13:31:39] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: I'm looking at these...
[13:32:40] <Jymmm> 3KW, hour meter, wheel kit http://www.lowes.com/pd_106885-87012-40026_0_?newSearch=true&catalogId=10051&productId=3218343&Ntt=106885&N=0&langId=-1&y=3&x=40&storeId=10151&Ntk=i_products&ddkey=http:ProductDisplay -vs- 3500W, no wheel kit, no hour meter, single outlet, 110/220 http://www.tractorsupply.com/generators-accessories/gas-diesel-generators/champion-power-equipment-trade-3500-w-portable-gasoline-generator-4434023
[13:33:36] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: skunkworks made the comment that the 220v would be easier to use with a transfer switch. But it's only 15A per leg @ 220V
[13:34:02] <Jymmm> and only 15A @ 110V too
[13:34:17] <Jymmm> instead of 30A for the other generator
[13:35:27] <skunkworks> but it is 3kva right? so that must be 2 110 circuits at 15a
[13:37:22] <Jymmm> The 120/240 twist lock is 15A per leg, doens't matter the voltage. the RV receptacle is 30A, and 20A normal outlet
[13:38:11] <Jymmm> Printed Page 6, http://www.cpeauto.com/man/gen/46514%20Manual.pdf
[13:38:24] <Jymmm> pdf page 10
[13:38:53] <Jymmm> item (4)
[13:39:18] <Jymmm> subsection 123.34, paragraph 14
[13:39:22] <Jymmm> ;)
[13:40:23] <skunkworks> heh
[13:40:56] <Jymmm> Now, I'm not sure how an RV is actually wired to be able to distribute a 30A load across all of it's 15A outlets though.
[13:41:16] <Jymmm> I suspect much of that is the AC unit
[13:42:28] <SWPadnos> http://www.nooutage.com/nema_configurations.htm
[13:43:17] <SWPadnos> L5-15R is the twist-lock 15A 125V one, L6-15R is the 250V version
[13:43:21] <SWPadnos> they aren't the same
[13:43:27] <bricofoy> herron, you're right, but the fact is I don't care if Z terminates its move after X and Y. I need X and Y to go off quickly, then Z. For the moment I do G0 x0y0 then G0 z0
[13:43:28] <SWPadnos> (the key points in on one and out on the other)
[13:44:06] <bricofoy> but will be better for me if I can do G0 x0z0 and g0 Z0 at the same time.
[13:44:33] <herron> g0x0y0z0 is at the same time
[13:44:59] <SWPadnos> bricofoy, you can, but if you have a very slow Z it may slow down X and Y (since the combined speed may be limited by a TRAJ limit)
[13:45:23] <bricofoy> yes exactly
[13:45:26] <bricofoy> this is my problem
[13:45:32] <herron> total time is limited by the slowest axis
[13:45:44] <SWPadnos> I don't know how the accel is handled, I think G0 is executed just like a G1 with the highest speed atainable
[13:45:49] <bricofoy> i wondr if there is a way to have a simultaneous move but without syncing axes
[13:45:54] <SWPadnos> nope
[13:45:59] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: I get that, but they are using a L5-30R on the smaller gen.
[13:46:05] <SWPadnos> not if the motion controller is doing the moving
[13:46:11] <bricofoy> ok
[13:46:28] <bricofoy> so when homing, it's not the motion controller that do the move ?
[13:46:56] <SWPadnos> no
[13:47:02] <bricofoy> because it's what happens when homing if HOME_SEQUENCE is equal for all axes
[13:47:03] <bricofoy> ok
[13:47:12] <SWPadnos> there's a "free motion planner", which is not the same as the coordinated motion planner
[13:47:38] <bricofoy> ok so no way to call this motion planner from a gcode file ?
[13:47:45] <cradek> why does it make a difference how fast X and Y move, since you have to wait for Z anyway?
[13:47:58] <SWPadnos> bricofoy, no
[13:48:21] <cradek> EMC does it this way because moving in a straight line is a more predictable behavior and it takes *exactly* the same amount of time
[13:48:29] <bricofoy> because while Z finish moving, I can do manual things on the table because X and Y retracted fastly
[13:48:31] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: I basically want to be able to "balance" the load potential... Frig/Freezer at 1800W startup + some lights/fans/radio as example.
[13:49:09] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: One fat ass extension cord and a power strip or two =)
[13:49:23] <SWPadnos> heh
[13:49:37] <cradek> ok, then I guess you want two separate moves. Z must be very slow if you can do significant manual work while it's retracting. is there something wrong with Z?
[13:50:10] <skunkworks> my calculations z must be 480ft long... ;)
[13:50:23] <fragalot> awesome
[13:50:31] <fragalot> my mum bougght my sister a car for her birthday, I go to pick it up
[13:50:35] <Jymmm> Geo well drilling a la cnc
[13:50:35] <fragalot> back up to drive home with it
[13:50:39] <bricofoy> Z is slow because it use a normal screw with a 3mm pitch, but I use 10mm pitch ballscrews for X and Y
[13:50:44] <fragalot> the left ffront suspension coil goes *Ploink*
[13:50:53] <fragalot> <3 french engineering.
[13:51:22] <bricofoy> fragalot, witch car ?
[13:51:31] <fragalot> bricofoy: renault twingo
[13:51:37] <bricofoy> okay LOL
[13:51:44] <bricofoy> this is not a car LOL
[13:52:00] <fragalot> it's her first car and knowing her she *WILL* panic and wreck it.
[13:52:07] <bricofoy> renault stopped producing car maybe 20 years ago
[13:52:11] <fragalot> I'm more of a ford kinda guy myself
[13:52:21] <bricofoy> their actual production is something... other :P
[13:52:37] <bricofoy> I'm a Citroën guy
[13:52:42] <bricofoy> but oldr models
[13:52:52] <fragalot> was just gonna say, new citroens are iffy
[13:53:09] <fragalot> where-as ford was good in th epast, and still makes mighty fine cars
[13:54:21] <bricofoy> well as all electronic-filled cars, new citroens can have some problems
[13:54:51] <bricofoy> but there still be some interesting innovation in citroen cars
[13:55:00] <fragalot> ford has electronics filled cars too
[13:55:04] <fragalot> but they seem to all work just fine.
[13:55:11] <bricofoy> but... no way, older ones are better :)
[13:55:26] <bricofoy> you know about Activa system ?
[13:55:37] <fragalot> enlighten me
[13:56:12] <bricofoy> well, quite difficult for me to explain in english
[13:56:45] <fragalot> what's your native language
[13:57:33] <bricofoy> french
[13:57:56] <fragalot> explain in french then
[13:58:23] <bricofoy> ok, will put some parts in french
[13:59:13] <bricofoy> citroen usd the hydraulic system not only to keep the car at the same height in all loading condition
[13:59:21] <fragalot> oh yeah
[13:59:30] <fragalot> they invented that ages ago
[13:59:33] <bricofoy> this is a very old system
[13:59:36] <bricofoy> yes
[14:00:34] <bricofoy> but with activa system, they use it to keep the car perfectly parralel to the road when you turn, even at high speed
[14:00:53] <bricofoy> and this is... VERY interesting
[14:01:04] <bricofoy> this car is a driving-license-exploder :P :P
[14:01:06] <fragalot> it would be more interesting if itt tilted inwards
[14:01:32] <bricofoy> well, yes, but compared to a normal car, the difference is awesome
[14:01:52] <fragalot> I can imagine :)
[14:01:53] <bricofoy> and may be, adding some elctromecanics it's possible to tilt inwards
[14:02:02] <fragalot> though I can't say I feel a lot of body roll in my ford
[14:02:12] <fragalot> it already has those electromechanics, bricofoy
[14:02:17] <fragalot> just needs to be reprogrammed a bit :P
[14:02:17] <bricofoy> because the correction is fully mecanical
[14:02:20] <bricofoy> no
[14:02:37] <bricofoy> the electronic part is only to suppres some softness in the system
[14:04:21] <bricofoy> but the real tilt correction is done mecanically : just a spring that move a hydraulic distributor when front wheel have heigh diference relative to the car body
[14:04:56] <fragalot> neat.
[14:05:10] <fragalot> if only the rest of the car was clever like that.
[14:05:10] <fragalot> :P
[14:05:18] <bricofoy> ho bu it is
[14:05:21] <bricofoy> but
[14:05:31] <bricofoy> at least for the suspension system
[14:05:40] <fragalot> I don't like citroens, they just don't feel.. finished :/
[14:05:49] <fragalot> there's always something you can find that isn't quite perfect yet
[14:05:53] <bricofoy> old ones, I agree
[14:06:04] <fragalot> whereas in my ford, I have yet to find that quirky bit.. everything is just.. perfect :/
[14:06:19] <bricofoy> as ford lovers do :)
[14:06:47] <fragalot> go find a ford c-max from 2006 and try and find something that's wrong. :P
[14:06:55] <bricofoy> everything but the suspension is perfect :P
[14:07:02] <bricofoy> as in ALL newer car, in fact
[14:07:02] <fragalot> it barely rolls in a corner
[14:07:37] <bricofoy> I will never understand how can someone buy a car with a suspension as HARD as all new cars are
[14:07:59] <bricofoy> yeah it barely roll but the price for that is a HARD suspension
[14:08:02] <fragalot> bricofoy: that's the beauty about the c-max, you can FEEL you hit something, but it doesn't bother you at all.
[14:08:44] <fragalot> they've even covered it in top gear, and nobody there could find something bad about it :P
[14:09:02] <bricofoy> yeah you can feel... inside your bones !
[14:09:09] <fragalot> no
[14:09:15] <fragalot> you should see if you can test drive one
[14:09:18] <fragalot> you'll see what I mean
[14:09:26] <bricofoy> whereas with citroen suspension you fell it, but it really don't bother you at all
[14:09:34] <fragalot> ^ same in my ford.
[14:09:35] <fragalot> :P
[14:09:45] <bricofoy> ^^
[14:10:17] <fragalot> a mate of mine has a renault break, the suspension in that car is horrible
[14:10:29] <fragalot> it doesn't roll much because the car is so low down, but you can't feel a thing while driving it
[14:10:33] <fragalot> it's like you're gliding over air
[14:10:36] <fragalot> I hate it
[14:15:04] <fragalot> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zX09WnGU6ZY
[14:15:08] <fragalot> that's awesome.
[14:28:31] <grommit> I updated to 2.4.1 today (from 2.3.5). In the docs it says the tooltable will be automatically updated. When is it updated exactly? The edit date on my tool table looks to be unchanged and I don't think it was edited or updated in any way...
[14:28:36] <JT-Work> this must be the car channel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUDtFdnn9oQ
[14:29:10] <JT-Work> I guess it gets updated when you use the tool table?
[14:30:20] <SWPadnos> I think the old tool table will be read in, but if anything causes emc to save the tool table, it will be in the new format
[14:31:38] <grommit> So it reads in the old table format and knows what to do with it?
[14:31:54] <SWPadnos> I believe so
[14:32:07] <SWPadnos> it can read either but will only write the new format, I think
[14:33:05] <grommit> hmm, perhaps the docs should be updated to reflect this. from reading it says the old format is "incompatible", that to me means it is, well, incompatible ;-)
[14:33:38] <SWPadnos> well, I'd trust (a) the docs and (b) what emc actually does before listening to me
[14:34:05] <SWPadnos> given that the docs also say that it will be automatically updated, I'd say an experiment is in order
[14:35:20] <grommit> * grommit experimenting
[14:38:11] <JT-Work> I see this still in the docs too "There is tool for converting to new tool tables in src/emc/usr_intf/toolconvert.tcl " dang documentation guy not keeping up :)
[14:39:13] <SWPadnos> man, he's slow :)
[14:40:07] <cradek> he's just a lazy bum
[14:40:14] <JT-Work> you should cut his pay in half!
[14:40:20] <SWPadnos> 1/4
[14:40:23] <SWPadnos> !
[14:40:31] <JT-Work> that will show him
[14:40:36] <SWPadnos> !
[14:41:43] <JT-Work> can't even find my heh key on this keyboard
[14:41:57] <SWPadnos> huh
[14:43:31] <grommit> hmm, I am getting following errors on my Z axis which I wasn't getting before the update. Coincidence?
[14:43:48] <grommit> I can't get z to move at all
[14:43:49] <SWPadnos> possibly
[14:44:08] <SWPadnos> what did you update from?
[14:44:14] <grommit> 2.3.5 to 2.4.1
[14:44:20] <SWPadnos> huh
[14:44:27] <grommit> The only change I made was to remove emc.nml reference from ini
[14:44:27] <SWPadnos> well, good luck with it. bbl :)
[14:52:30] <bricofoy> something quite boring with G81, when using G90 and G91, hole deepness changes. I think this makes sense, but does'nt feel natural for me...
[15:08:00] <Endeavour> Greetings
[15:08:56] <bricofoy> hi
[15:16:28] <skunkworks> They are removing the big fireplace from my office. loud! :)
[15:25:20] <bricofoy> http://www.jamendo.com/fr/album/7786 :)
[15:27:45] <penguin> hi guys
[15:27:50] <penguin> i have a question. I have commented the emc.nml file, because it's causing problems. EMC2 seems to run ok without the .nml file
[15:28:05] <penguin> you know if deleting the .nml file will cause problems?
[15:31:39] <tom3p> i think you deleted the reference, not the file.
[15:31:40] <tom3p> if you did this after an upgrade to a recent emc2 version, i can say i did the same and have seen no problem running a small stepper system.
[15:31:59] <JT-Work> penguin: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?UPDATING#Changes_between_2_3_x_and_2_4_x
[15:32:04] <elmo40> bricofoy: of course the hole changes if you use g90 compared to g91 :P
[15:32:14] <elmo40> g91 is incremental.
[15:32:45] <penguin> thanks JT-Worrk !!!!!
[15:33:42] <elmo40> not a bad way to describe milling g-code: http://www.tormach.com/machine_codes.html
[15:33:49] <elmo40> with pictures ;)
[15:34:09] <JT-Work> np
[15:39:10] <tom3p> JT-Work, in that url, i see no mention of changes to the .hal lines for installing parport.
[15:39:10] <tom3p> I had to change loadrt hal_parport cfg="0xa800 0xb000 0x378" to loadrt hal_parport cfg="0xa800" to avoid emc2 breaking at runtime with 'PARPORT: ERROR: port parport1 claim failed'
[15:40:53] <SWPadnos> tom3p, do you have 3 parports in that machine?
[15:43:25] <tom3p> yes, mobo, & 2 on a pci. i squashed 2 to simplify problem, I also changed 0x378 to 0x0378 ( no help )
[15:44:15] <tom3p> took several reboots to get it to run old RIP after upgrading nonRIP to 2.4.0
[15:46:40] <SWPadnos> tom3p, try "0xa800_0xb000_0x378" instead
[15:47:05] <cradek> or "0 1 2"
[15:47:58] <SWPadnos> or "0_1_2" :)
[15:48:27] <SWPadnos> none of which should be required, assuming that the loadrt worked before
[15:51:41] <tom3p> oh, i would have guess to try that ( not!) ( and yes it worked before )
[15:52:00] <tom3p> thanks
[15:53:01] <SWPadnos> also, check to see if lp or some other module is using the parport module (with lsmod)
[15:53:30] <SWPadnos> I guess it's possible that the first port isn't claimed by something else, but later one(s) are (?)
[15:54:08] <tom3p> ok, I can check, sorry that underscore suggestion threw me
[15:54:14] <SWPadnos> no problem
[15:54:44] <SWPadnos> apparently some kernels split arguments when they see spaces, and hal_parport needs all the words in the same string
[15:54:58] <SWPadnos> so it allows underscores as well as spaces for separators
[15:55:31] <JT-Work> should the underscore be default in the docs?
[15:55:38] <tom3p> ah, thus the connecting underscores
[15:55:42] <SWPadnos> I don't think so, it looks too weird :)
[15:55:57] <JT-Work> this was a special case?
[15:56:01] <SWPadnos> and if it works with spaces on the same PC with the same kernel, then that's not likely to be the problem
[15:56:40] <grommit> I had a loose wire on my z axis. 2.4.1 had nothing to do with it. Now back to the tool table...
[15:56:53] <SWPadnos> from hal_parport.c: "/* in addition, it seems that insmod under kernel 2.6 will truncate a string parameter at the first whitespace. So we allow '_' as an alternate token separator. */"
[15:59:34] <tom3p> ok, thanks ( thats a lot of digging )
[16:00:28] <davidf> SWPadnos, I haven't started trying to figure out exactly how to do the scaling yet, but...
[16:01:04] <davidf> What I did do is I replaced the encoder signal with a clean, 1 KHz clock signal.
[16:01:12] <bricofoy> elmo40, yeah, makes sense, but will be more intuitive if G91 apply only to X and Y not Z during the G81... well ok, will be very confusing.
[16:01:33] <davidf> And I still get the tach value jumping around about 10%
[16:03:00] <skunkworks> davidf: are you having latency issues with the machine?
[16:03:20] <davidf> That's what I'm wondering too.
[16:03:43] <davidf> On rare occasions I do get a latency error popup
[16:04:09] <davidf> But I set the base interval to 50,000
[16:04:44] <davidf> Typical value on-the-fly during test is 24K, and max is around 46K
[16:11:36] <davidf> I just ordered an AMT102 Encoder But if I'm getting 10% error with a clock signal that doesn't look too promising...
[16:13:08] <cradek> at what frequency are you sampling your 1kHz clock signal?
[16:13:36] <davidf> cradek, I actually don't know that.
[16:14:23] <davidf> I just used the config wiz to add the encoder stuff
[16:15:24] <davidf> I don't understand enough to know what speed the encoder thread is running at.
[16:18:43] <davidf> Any guidance as to what to read first, second, etc to learn evrything I need?
[16:20:00] <davidf> I've been using EMC2 for my lathe and mill for a long time now with no problems, but trying to do spindle feedback for threading is over my head
[16:20:28] <davidf> And I'd like to learn enough to understand how to do it.
[16:21:43] <davidf> But not sure where to start. My guess is I should gain a thorough understanding of how the HAL works first?
[16:24:56] <SWPadnos_> Learning how to monitor and modify the HAL are very good things to learn
[16:26:38] <davidf> Also I need to learn some simple "getting around" stuff, like,
[16:27:01] <SWPadnos_> Yes :)
[16:27:06] <davidf> How to see all the parts & functions of the encoder code
[16:27:23] <davidf> I don't even know how to do that.
[16:27:27] <frallzor> yo yo mamas
[16:27:42] <JT-Work> davidf: here is a good place to start http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html//hal_basic_hal.html
[16:27:46] <SWPadnos_> Well, probably not. Depends what you mean by code
[16:28:41] <davidf> What I meant to say was what pins are included I guess?
[16:28:43] <frallzor> thank god for ebay =)
[16:29:12] <SWPadnos_> That's part of monitoring
[16:29:17] <davidf> like encoder.0.whateverSignal etc
[16:29:55] <tom3p> /part
[16:31:50] <davidf> JT-Work, That link looks excellent Thanks. But another thing that would really help is Where do I go to find that page myself???
[16:35:28] <SWPadnos_> Linuxcnc.org, then documentation
[16:36:07] <SWPadnos_> Also, there are full PDF manuals under the "CNC" menu
[16:36:46] <davidf> SWPadnos, Thanks. I found it. Don't know how I skipped over that!!
[16:37:34] <davidf> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html/ is a very helpful overview.
[16:37:43] <SWPadnos_> Yep
[16:38:19] <SWPadnos_> Careful to go to the right version, if you're not up to date
[16:39:08] <SWPadnos_> That's 1 more click away, under HTML (I think)
[16:39:59] <davidf> SWPadnos, OK thanks\
[16:40:11] <SWPadnos_> Sure
[16:41:00] <davidf> SWPadnos, why do you think the tach value would jitter by 5 to 10% when fed by a clean square clock signal at 1 KHz?
[16:41:24] <davidf> Sampling too slow?
[16:41:30] <SWPadnos_> No
[16:41:45] <davidf> Gremlin?
[16:41:49] <davidf> :)
[16:42:27] <SWPadnos_> The position estimate depends on the encoder count and the time the last count was seen
[16:43:03] <SWPadnos_> Timing variations can cause some variation
[16:43:15] <SWPadnos_> In the estimate
[16:44:01] <SWPadnos_> I wouldn't expect 5-10% though
[16:44:57] <davidf> for canned threading, is the spindle position estimate for z-axis coordination going to be only 90% accurate??
[16:45:06] <davidf> Also??
[16:45:32] <davidf> Can't imaging that would work well.
[16:45:39] <davidf> imagine*
[16:46:02] <SWPadnos_> Learn about halscope, look at the position estimate, and see how linear it is :)
[16:46:16] <SWPadnos_> Gotta run, bbl
[16:46:45] <davidf> OK, I will endeavor to do that! :) Thanks SWPadnos
[16:46:51] <archivist> I had to change to interpolated when I got threading going on mine
[16:47:50] <davidf> archivist, I did change something like something.0.position to something.0.position-interpolated
[16:48:00] <davidf> Is that what you meant?
[16:48:03] <archivist> yup
[16:48:22] <davidf> Didn't help though.
[16:49:03] <archivist> can you vary the speed see if you have a sweet spot
[16:50:05] <davidf> Could be I have noise somewhere I'm not aware of. My scope is only a 1MHz so I can't see the super fast stuff that logic gates can produce etc
[16:50:25] <davidf> archivist, I can if I use the encoder and the spindle.
[16:50:32] <JT-Work> davidf: it's in the Integrator Manual
[16:50:45] <davidf> It is the same error range over any speed It seems.
[16:51:17] <davidf> JT-Work, you mean about threading?
[16:51:26] <JT-Work> the link I posted
[16:51:32] <JT-Work> sorry I was off making parts
[16:51:57] <davidf> Oh, OK. Thanks.
[16:54:22] <archivist> davidf, one of the best things I did during the time I got mine going was increase the acceleration so the Z can follow closer
[16:54:54] <davidf> OK, good tip, thanks
[16:54:59] <archivist> my original setting was too conservative
[16:55:50] <davidf> But first I need to see a stable speed output in the tach window when I apply a steady signal I would think...
[16:56:46] <davidf> archivist, do you use that tach window widget that is available in the configuration wizard?
[16:56:58] <archivist> when the Z is following you can get an unstable condition if the acceleration is set too low
[16:57:35] <davidf> OK I can see how that could happen.
[16:57:41] <archivist> mine was done last September, just used halscope
[16:58:21] <davidf> But right now I'm simply spinning the spindle and looking at the tach speed that's displayed. No g-code.
[16:58:57] <cradek> what do you mean by tach speed?
[16:59:13] <davidf> archivist, You used Halscope fto see the spindle velocity then?
[17:00:17] <davidf> cradek, I selected to use a pyVcp example tach xml thingy that is available in the configuration wizard.
[17:00:48] <davidf> It puts a little window on screen with a bar graph on it...
[17:00:50] <cradek> ok, I have no idea what that does
[17:00:58] <archivist> nor me
[17:01:07] <cradek> I mean, where does it get its velocity signal and how
[17:01:23] <cradek> it if's ddt of position, it's gonna suck
[17:01:58] <davidf> It does track the speed of the spindle, but with poor resolution
[17:02:10] <davidf> by ddt, u mean derivative?
[17:02:16] <cradek> yes
[17:02:25] <davidf> hmm. Noisy.
[17:02:28] <cradek> ddt is a hal component
[17:02:59] <cradek> yes, discrete derivative (dcounts/dt) is always noisy because of the time quantization
[17:03:01] <davidf> Well I didn't mean noisy really. Jittery
[17:03:27] <davidf> Right I can see that.
[17:03:45] <cradek> I don't know if that's what stepconf gives you though. look at the generated hal files and tell us
[17:03:51] <cradek> bbl, lunch
[17:03:58] <davidf> OK Thanks
[17:04:22] <davidf> Me too.
[17:15:08] <elmo40> bricofoy: why use g91 for drilling? you have a pattern to make with constant x or why spacing? use a loop ;)
[17:36:27] <cradek> if you want to use a repeating drill cycle you have to use g91
[17:52:11] <elmo40> cradek: inside the cycle. he may have used it outside, and that may have caused the change in Z
[17:52:51] <cradek> if the retract plan is nonzero I think you have to use a different Z if in g91/g90
[17:53:39] <cradek> like if the top of work is 0, G90 G81 Z-1 R.1 and (starting at Z0) G91 G81 Z-1.1 R.1 give equivalent motion (notice bigger Z id required in the second one)
[17:54:02] <cradek> I'm guessing this is what he means, and I'm also going from memory without testing it :-/
[17:54:53] <frallzor> http://pici.se/p/HCofnGEkO/?size=fullsize pretty snazzy for a first try
[17:58:45] <elmo40> what app?
[17:59:22] <frallzor> david laser something
[18:00:40] <elmo40> a drill pattern macro. will it work with emc? : http://pastebin.ca/1876112
[18:01:37] <elmo40> can't he use the L offsetting?
[18:01:58] <elmo40> L19 or L20 for x, L24 or L25 for y?
[18:02:02] <cradek> no, that's not the least bit like emc's gcode
[18:06:22] <elmo40> something like this: X+.236 L20
[18:06:41] <elmo40> it will step 0.236
[18:06:52] <elmo40> would the Lxx be how many times?
[18:06:59] <elmo40> I am reading this code for the first time ;)
[18:07:19] <cradek> yes you can repeat a drill cycle in emc like that
[18:07:28] <elmo40> will have to test it at work tonight :)
[18:07:41] <cradek> I can't decipher what your code is trying to do
[18:07:59] <cradek> instead of that -- if you want to know how to do something, describe what you want to do
[18:08:17] <elmo40> drill a grid
[18:08:28] <elmo40> withought actually putting in the dimensions
[18:08:38] <elmo40> using a loop or some sorts
[18:08:39] <cradek> you can do each row of holes with a single line of gcode
[18:08:41] <elmo40> or macro
[18:08:52] <cradek> or, you could write a double loop with O words
[18:09:05] <elmo40> example?
[18:09:39] <JT-Work> elmo40: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Simple_EMC_G-Code_Generators#Grill_Drilling_Software
[18:10:20] <cradek> g90 g0 x-1 y0, g91 g81 x1 r.1 z-1.1 l10 (drill ten holes at 0,0 1,0 2,0 ... 9,0)
[18:10:31] <cradek> then do the same thing at y1 for the next row
[18:10:50] <cradek> or, use O repeat, or O while
[18:11:11] <elmo40> 6. Grill Drilling Software
[18:11:17] <elmo40> shouldn't that be Grid Drilling?
[18:11:51] <JT-Work> dunno I didn't write that one
[18:23:20] <davidf> Why would I get G code out of range when issuing a G76 ?
[18:24:43] <cradek> davidf: what's the exact error?
[18:25:40] <cradek> oh that is an exact error. I get it when I type G999.
[18:25:49] <davidf> Near line 3: G code out of range
[18:25:56] <davidf> Line 3 is...
[18:25:59] <cradek> what else is near line 3?
[18:26:28] <davidf> Nothing. That is the only line of code in the file.
[18:26:34] <davidf> G76 0.025 2.0 -.276 .002 .010 1 30 2 2 3
[18:26:56] <cradek> you're missing all your letters
[18:27:10] <davidf> I just loaded that into Sim / Axis and clicked run
[18:27:12] <cradek> there is no such g code as G760.0252.0-.276...
[18:27:19] <davidf> OH.
[18:27:35] <davidf> I need to actually type the letters then.
[18:27:48] <davidf> LOL never used it before
[18:28:40] <cradek> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/gcode_overview.html#r1_1
[18:29:03] <fragalot> * fragalot hangs his head in shame
[18:30:45] <archivist> davidf see the examples that come with emc too
[18:32:34] <archivist> although the threading example could have a lot better comments to help a new coder
[18:41:11] <davidf> archivist, There's a threading example g code program?
[18:42:36] <archivist> yes
[18:42:55] <davidf> Actually the g76 documentation does a pretty good job I think, but if there is some extended article on it that would help loads
[18:42:57] <cradek> I see threading.ngc (uses g33) and g76.ngc (uses g76)
[18:45:33] <davidf> cradek, where please?
[18:46:29] <cradek> don't you have an examples directory in your config?
[18:46:42] <davidf> I see this, but it doesn't say where the files are...
[18:46:44] <davidf> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html//examples_gcode.html#r1_2_1
[18:47:58] <archivist> I think there is another as well
[18:48:11] <archivist> /usr/share/emc
[18:48:51] <archivist> I have a lathe-g76.ngc on mine as well cant remember if its a version I did
[18:50:04] <davidf> Found it. In nc-files folder. Thanks
[18:50:56] <archivist> I found I learnt more by adding comments to that file
[18:51:30] <archivist> it needs some comments about the tools assumed and why
[18:56:38] <davidf> archivist, You speaking of g76.ngc?
[18:57:22] <davidf> It is commented fairly well in my version...
[18:57:40] <archivist> for what definition of fairly :)
[18:58:29] <davidf> Well, it says facing, parting, and threading re the three tools
[18:58:49] <davidf> And explains the meaning of each parameter...
[19:00:43] <davidf> I'm a little unclear on how the (q = "compound slide" angle) will affect the cut. I'll need to experiment with that I guess
[19:01:22] <davidf> also the (e = distance along drive line used for tapered start/end) and
[19:01:22] <davidf> (l = which ends get the taper: 0 = neither, 1 = begin, 2 = end, 3 = both)
[19:01:45] <archivist> have you done manual lathe screw cutting
[19:02:19] <davidf> Yes, enough to know I want to do it with cnc for production parts. :)
[19:02:26] <archivist> :)
[19:02:56] <davidf> Pain in the hiney and stressful after a while, hoping you don't screw up your screws.
[19:03:13] <archivist> did you set your cross slide to the thread side angle or plunge straight in
[19:03:29] <davidf> straight in.
[19:03:52] <davidf> Didn't even have any idea of the cross-slide thing.
[19:04:18] <archivist> you need a good machine and cutter to go in straight
[19:04:32] <davidf> Just followed the rudimentary instructions that came hard-copy with my chinese mini-lathe
[19:05:26] <krushia_> krushia_ is now known as krushia
[19:05:33] <davidf> I do have a pretty good threading tool with threading inserts
[19:05:51] <Jymmm> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/tls/1771413235.html
[19:06:48] <davidf> archivist, I'm confused on the cross slide angle thing though. Doesn't the thread have to be 60 degrees on both sides
[19:07:34] <archivist> yes, so the tool is the correct angle to the work, infeed can be different
[19:07:40] <davidf> Oh, I think I do begin to see the light on that
[19:08:02] <davidf> Right, now I can visualize it.
[19:08:06] <archivist> you can also swap sides as you go in
[19:08:26] <davidf> That's why the typical values are close to 30 degrees right?
[19:08:40] <archivist> moooore fun doing a long square thread
[19:09:18] <davidf> like acme ... That might be a challenge.
[19:09:38] <archivist> the angles were defined way back when for various reasons
[19:11:39] <davidf> Silly me, I started up the g76.ngc in sim on a box with no machine on the || port. Went to X=something and sat there waiting for the spindle index signal I guess. :)
[19:12:27] <davidf> OK, Its off to the lathe to see what I can break next.
[19:12:38] <davidf> Wish me luck...
[19:15:23] <SWPadnos> davidf, one thing if you're still here
[19:15:34] <davidf> yes
[19:15:44] <davidf> SWPadnos,
[19:15:45] <SWPadnos> like cradek asked, it would be helpful to know where the tach display input comes from - a ddt or something else
[19:16:11] <SWPadnos> it should be more stable if it comes straight from the encoder.0.velocity output
[19:16:24] <SWPadnos> you can look at that with halmeter, no need to mess with any config files
[19:17:01] <SWPadnos> in fact, it might be interesting for you to fire up two halmeters, one on the encoder velocity output and the other on the pyvcp tach input, see if they're different
[19:17:28] <SWPadnos> also take a look at halshow (which is also available from the machine menu in axis)
[19:17:31] <davidf> OK I will try and see If I can figure that out. I'm going to have a learning curve before I can even do some of these things that probably seem simple to you guys...
[19:17:50] <SWPadnos> it's all pointy-clicky, so it should be easy enough ;)
[19:18:28] <davidf> As long as you know where the pointy clicky thingies are. :)
[19:18:47] <SWPadnos> <hint>the machine menu of Axis</hint>
[19:19:09] <davidf> Oh boy. That's a pretty good hint Ha.
[19:19:24] <SWPadnos> I suggest you make a config you can just play around with.
[19:19:28] <davidf> Never even looked at it. Geeeeez.
[19:19:38] <SWPadnos> delete the whole config if you screw something up
[19:19:42] <SWPadnos> and make a new one
[19:19:54] <davidf> OK I will do that so I don't screw up what's already working
[19:19:56] <SWPadnos> you can have as many as you want, might as well be able to play
[19:20:06] <davidf> Right
[19:21:09] <davidf> Do you know if there are wireless network adapters like at walmart or something that will work on my old emc dumpster grade computer?
[19:21:37] <SWPadnos> it's possible, but you'd be better off getting something like the WET11 wireless bridge
[19:21:51] <SWPadnos> I don't know if those are still available, but something like them should be
[19:22:16] <SWPadnos> that eliminates any driver issues (assuming you have an ethernet port in the PC)
[19:23:53] <davidf> I do have an ethernet port.
[19:24:56] <davidf> I have a WRT120N router, and one linux box and a windows box hooked up right now, the linux box is wired and the windows is wireless.
[19:25:24] <davidf> The machine computer is in the basement shop so I wanted to do that wireless
[19:26:04] <SWPadnos> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833180035
[19:26:11] <davidf> Using Samba on the linux box that's upstairs, that all works pretty well
[19:26:20] <SWPadnos> I don't know that one in particular, I just did a search on NewEgg
[19:27:25] <davidf> Is that ethernet bridge just like a router?
[19:27:35] <davidf> Or IS it a router?
[19:27:58] <SWPadnos> it has several modes, one of which is something like access point client
[19:28:12] <SWPadnos> which I think should act a lot like a bridge, which is what you want - not a router
[19:28:35] <davidf> Hmm I don't know what a bridge is then I guess.
[19:28:40] <SWPadnos> (so if you search around, make sure there's a non-router mode, or you probably won't be able to access the other computers on your LAN)
[19:28:48] <SWPadnos> I'm sure wikipedia can tell you ;)
[19:29:02] <davidf> Don't want to bog you down into elementary teaching mode though.
[19:29:15] <davidf> Right.
[19:29:48] <davidf> Thanks that's for later anyway, not high on the priority list ATM
[19:34:43] <bricofoy> is there something simple to invert a pin state in hal or do i need to add a not component ?
[19:38:25] <davidf> SWPadnos, Oh I think I see what you meant now... The bridge is like a pin-to-pin one-to-one direct wired communication channel and the router / LAN method needs driver software running that would interfere with EMC?
[19:39:09] <SWPadnos> a bridge doesn't change the topology of the network, so a device behind a bridge is connected in the same way as a device "in front of" the bridge
[19:39:30] <SWPadnos> a router does change the topology, and is only needed between networks (it routes packets from network to network)
[19:40:29] <SWPadnos> so when you have a wireless router, it will get an IP address from your other router, and will assign a different set of addresses to things plugged into it
[19:42:23] <davidf> I wasn't going to get another router, I just wnat to get my basement computer "plugged in" to the one router I have, without running a 70 foot ethernet cable
[19:42:54] <JT-Work> I had to run two Cat 5E cables to my basement :)
[19:42:56] <SWPadnos> that's why I suggested finding something that can be a bridge rather than a router
[19:43:35] <JT-Work> which is working nicely SWPadnos thanks
[19:43:35] <davidf> Oh. what I was calling a wireless adapter, you're calling a router I guess?
[19:43:50] <SWPadnos> JT-Work, glad it ended up working :)
[19:44:08] <SWPadnos> davidf, no, those are different things
[19:44:31] <SWPadnos> I was suggesting getting an external wireless to wired bridge instead of a PCI or USB wifi adapter
[19:44:55] <SWPadnos> the reason I suggested that is that it eliminates any driver issues from the equation
[19:45:27] <SWPadnos> wireless drivers for the RT kernel have been a problem in the past, and we're almost never up to date on that stuff
[19:45:35] <davidf> Like non-emc-compatible drivers you mean?
[19:45:51] <SWPadnos> non-Linux, or non-RTAI
[19:45:52] <davidf> OK I get it (finally)
[19:45:57] <davidf> Sorry
[19:46:18] <SWPadnos> much better to have an external doodad that converts to normal wired ethernet
[19:46:42] <SWPadnos> (and then you can just stick a switch down there, when you bring up your other EMC machines ;) )
[19:46:46] <JT-Work> is doodad an industry term :P
[19:47:34] <SWPadnos> depends on the industry ;)
[19:47:58] <davidf> The correct term in industry is actually doo-hickey.
[19:48:01] <bricofoy> got a problem using "not" HAL component
[19:48:11] <bricofoy> insmod: error inserting '/usr/realtime-2.6.31-21-rtai/modules/emc2/not.ko': -1 Unknown symbol in module
[19:48:20] <davidf> But I often get all freehoodled about that.
[19:48:22] <bricofoy> anyone has an idea ?
[19:48:32] <JT-Work> * JT-Work runs to the house to make some parts on the Hardinge
[19:48:39] <davidf> try doodad
[19:48:39] <SWPadnos> bricofoy, pastebin the last 50 or so lines of dmesg
[19:48:57] <davidf> not doodad
[19:49:21] <bricofoy> http://pastebin.ca/1876186
[19:51:54] <bricofoy> http://pastebin.ca/1876187 and this is my custom_postgui.hal file
[19:52:17] <SWPadnos> count=1
[19:52:19] <SWPadnos> not cout
[19:52:55] <bricofoy> yeah
[19:53:09] <bricofoy> seen that at the same moment then you :P
[19:53:11] <bricofoy> sorry
[19:53:17] <SWPadnos> np
[19:53:44] <SWPadnos> hmm. is "np" abbreviated "pdp" in french-speaking channels?
[19:54:04] <SWPadnos> pr pp or something?
[19:54:07] <SWPadnos> s/pr/or/
[19:55:20] <bricofoy> SWPadnos, np ? I don't understand what you mean
[19:55:26] <SWPadnos> "no problem"
[19:55:33] <bricofoy> ok !
[19:55:34] <SWPadnos> or pas de probleme
[19:55:38] <bricofoy> yes
[19:55:51] <bricofoy> but never seen pdp in french
[19:56:07] <bricofoy> but I'm not really often on forums, so...
[19:56:08] <SWPadnos> ok, I wasn't sure if there was some shorthand you'd use
[19:56:14] <SWPadnos> oh, well OK then :)
[19:57:33] <bricofoy> :)
[20:00:23] <frallzor> just completed my first laserscan
[20:00:28] <frallzor> its pretty ok
[20:16:20] <frallzor> http://pici.se/p/ZQDYIdCek/ part of a teddyfox :P
[20:22:12] <Dave911> SWPadnos: >> but you'd be better off getting something like the WET11 wireless bridge << Cisco sells a Wet11 like device but it costs more of course and from the feedback on the web they aren't as reliable as the Wet11's I just bought two Wet11's off Ebay - $25 each with free shipping.
[20:22:49] <Dave911> I've had a Wet11 up and running for 5+ years and it just works .. never have any problems with it .
[20:23:04] <SWPadnos> I think that's what Stuart used as well
[20:23:15] <Dave911> I wish everything was that reliable! :-)
[20:23:24] <SWPadnos> yeah :)
[20:23:30] <SWPadnos> I sure like their switches also
[20:23:55] <Dave911> The Linksys ones or the newer Cisco ones ??
[20:24:00] <SWPadnos> Linksys
[20:24:15] <SWPadnos> the GS108 is in a pretty sweet spot
[20:24:22] <Dave911> So do I.. I have two running here and they are just as reliable
[20:24:46] <Dave911> Never used a GS108 ... I'll have to check it out ..
[20:24:47] <SWPadnos> $50-$60, 8-port gigabit switch, and it can actually handle full wire speed on all ports, full duplex
[20:24:56] <SWPadnos> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833122111
[20:25:18] <SWPadnos> there are 5, 8, 12, and 16 port versions
[20:26:12] <SWPadnos> the GS105 is small enough to stick in a small cabinet, or even in a 5.25" drive bay
[20:26:28] <Dave911> Nice ... I need a bigger switch as I have a couple daisy chained right now.. I just keep adding stuff
[20:26:29] <SWPadnos> in fact, it may be small enough to fit in a 3.5" bay, with the right hardware (replace the case)
[20:26:59] <Dave911> Prices for switches like that have sure come down ..
[20:28:02] <Dave911> Have you tried any of the newer Mini Itx boards with the D510 processors or similar from Jetway or similar ?
[20:28:35] <Dave911> I'd like to try one that has the built in power supply - so it only needs 12 volts...
[20:28:39] <SWPadnos> sort of. once I saw that the Jetway had only 3 USB ports, I was less interested
[20:28:54] <Dave911> Didn't notice that ...
[20:28:54] <SWPadnos> that's what I got. how'd you like to take it off my hands?
[20:29:12] <Dave911> Which one do you have ..
[20:29:47] <SWPadnos> JNC96-510-LF
[20:30:14] <SWPadnos> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813153166
[20:30:24] <Dave911> Let me look ... cool a link.. :-)
[20:30:35] <SWPadnos> it's a bit more expensive than the ones with no supply onboard
[20:31:05] <SWPadnos> note that it's 3 usb headers for a total of 3 internal ports, not 3 dual-port headers
[20:33:37] <Dave911> That's ok ....
[20:33:38] <SWPadnos> the cable kit is nice: 2 SATA, 1 IDE, and a power adapter to go from the 4-pin molex on the motherboard to 2x SATA and 1x floppy
[20:34:06] <SWPadnos> so you can power all your drives (assuming you have a SATA optical drive) with the motherboard output and included cable
[20:34:12] <SWPadnos> even if you have a floppy ;)
[20:34:24] <Dave911> How much ?
[20:34:37] <SWPadnos> how about full price? :)
[20:34:51] <SWPadnos> I'll ship it to you even (it's still in the box, I never powered it up)
[20:41:58] <Endeavour> Hello
[20:45:29] <micges> hi
[20:50:08] <JT-Hardinge> hi
[21:06:52] <andypugh> Didn't win the Deckel. I can't decide whether I am sad about that or not.
[21:26:03] <andypugh> In other news, I think my servo motor driver might work, but perhaps I have the driver signal phasing wrong. If I connect the resolver of one motor and the motor of another, as I slowly rotate the shaft of the resolver motor the other motor does 4 small steps, then a 90 degree jump the opposite direction
[21:30:03] <KimK> andypugh: I hope your motor news helps, please keep us posted.
[21:37:51] <packrat> hey, does anyone here have any experience running EMC on a Dyna Mechatronics DM4400 CNC?
[21:38:43] <packrat> there's one we're itching to pick up for our hackerspace, and I would like to know what we're getting ourselves into with something like that
[21:38:49] <cradek> packrat: doubtful, but many of us have experience running many different kinds of machines
[21:38:56] <cradek> tell us about the machine and what's currently on it
[21:39:03] <packrat> http://detroit.craigslist.org/wyn/tls/1766343136.html
[21:39:14] <packrat> this is the info we have so far. the poster seems to be on the lam
[21:39:23] <packrat> but we're still hopeful
[21:39:42] <cradek> I'm really surprised to see stepper motors on a machine that size.
[21:39:47] <packrat> and a cnczone post
[21:39:48] <packrat> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50787
[21:40:12] <frallzor> * frallzor wants his new psy
[21:40:14] <frallzor> *psu
[21:40:25] <cradek> BT30 tooling is slightly uncommon
[21:40:54] <cradek> I think they probably meant 6.5 hp *spindle* motor, not servo motor
[21:41:04] <andypugh> Common enough in the UK
[21:41:05] <cradek> 6.5 hp seems like way too much for a 30 taper spindle
[21:41:13] <packrat> its a real servo
[21:41:19] <andypugh> BT30 has dogs, I think
[21:41:25] <packrat> a 4hp, 6.5peak, dc servo
[21:41:34] <cradek> oh, ok
[21:41:46] <packrat> at least according to the promo materials on the cnczone posts
[21:41:49] <cradek> 6000 rpm is nice if you use small tools
[21:42:17] <packrat> but 10k would be better?
[21:42:21] <andypugh> Aye, two big dogs http://www.tools-n-gizmos.com/specs/Tapers.html#BT
[21:42:23] <cradek> yes of course
[21:42:44] <packrat> nifty, andypugh
[21:42:59] <frallzor> anyone here using alias studio or something?
[21:43:23] <cradek> I see plenty of BT30 stuff on ebay - maybe it's not as uncommon as I thought - that's very good
[21:43:33] <packrat> i think i read there are some retrofits for the dm4400 that can bring it up to 10k
[21:44:11] <cradek> does it have a power drawbar?
[21:44:27] <packrat> i only know whats in the CL post right now :\
[21:44:55] <andypugh> Let me put it this way, if I had $800 and the space, I would now have neither.
[21:45:12] <andypugh> That's a lot of machine for the money
[21:45:28] <andypugh> (And you can probably sell the Geckos and steppers)
[21:45:29] <packrat> haha, okay
[21:45:36] <packrat> we're in detroit, so yeah, we got lots of space
[21:45:45] <packrat> 8k sqft to be exact >:3
[21:46:11] <packrat> what. dont like the geckos?
[21:46:26] <andypugh> I don't like steppers for a machine that size
[21:46:28] <cradek> I can't read the jpeg scan http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=51141&d=1200775093
[21:46:41] <cradek> does it say rapid traverse 100"/min? if so the steppers might be original
[21:47:10] <packrat> thats what it looks like to me
[21:47:22] <packrat> hm, how much would servos for a rig like this run us?
[21:47:36] <andypugh> Depends..
[21:47:46] <andypugh> How much of a hurry are you in?
[21:47:54] <packrat> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=51136&d=1200774941
[21:47:55] <cradek> I wouldn't buy this machine. I'd get a machine that has original servos and amps on it.
[21:48:01] <packrat> cradek
[21:48:06] <packrat> that link reads better
[21:48:33] <JT-Hardinge> I second that get one with servos in it and velocity amps and encoder feedback
[21:48:36] <packrat> well, we would really like to avoid much more expenditure beyond the base 800
[21:48:46] <cradek> agree with JT-Hardinge
[21:48:48] <packrat> heh, this is weird
[21:48:50] <andypugh> Actually, Chris has a point. If you have the space then machines needing less work are available.
[21:49:01] <cradek> packrat: servos and amps are cheap when they come attached to iron, and expensive as hell if they come separate
[21:49:02] <packrat> the issue for us is cost
[21:49:30] <packrat> anyways, whats weird is that people i meet in person who use EMC are all "man fuck servos, shits so pointless"
[21:49:34] <cradek> you won't save money buying this machine and then trying to get > 100"/min out of it
[21:49:38] <andypugh> Buy something old and heavy that nobody else wants with the servos already fitted then
[21:49:40] <JT-Hardinge> I buy tiny servos and amps all the time for my automation equipment and spend $1k in a heartbeat
[21:49:58] <packrat> yeah, we would like to avoid that
[21:50:01] <packrat> we're a hackerspace
[21:50:01] <JT-Hardinge> nothing big enough to move much
[21:50:11] <packrat> not exactly flush with cash
[21:50:29] <frallzor> steppers does wonders if used right =)
[21:50:30] <andypugh> Having said that, I got 3x 500W servos for £50 from eBay recently. And I can't have spent much more than 100 hours trying to make them work. :-)
[21:50:43] <cradek> you can get a busted VMC with tool changer and good matched servos and amps for a couple $k
[21:50:54] <JT-Hardinge> exactly
[21:50:59] <cradek> and that'd be 40 taper
[21:51:01] <packrat> yeah, we cant dump money like that
[21:51:19] <packrat> right now we're trying to get enough people to pitch in to pay the $800
[21:51:21] <cradek> you may either way - the question is whether you dump it up front :-/
[21:51:26] <andypugh> OK, then does that machine, with steppers, work for you?
[21:51:51] <packrat> who you talking to?
[21:51:57] <andypugh> Because all it needs with the existing geckos and EMC2 is wire.
[21:52:05] <andypugh> I was talking to you.
[21:52:15] <packrat> ok
[21:52:22] <JT-Hardinge> unless it is flush with tooling your going to spend much more than $800 just to make some chips
[21:52:52] <packrat> such as?
[21:53:01] <andypugh> You can wire that system as described to the p-port with wire only. (though D-sub connectors are not _that_ expensive :-)
[21:53:16] <packrat> andypugh, thats kinda what we would like
[21:53:29] <cradek> "no quill movement on Z" - does that mean the knee or the head moves?
[21:53:57] <cradek> 'electronic power draw bar' = good
[21:54:02] <andypugh> Looks like a moving-head machine
[21:54:17] <cradek> moving the head with a stepper and gecko!?
[21:54:24] <cradek> how can that possibly work
[21:54:25] <andypugh> In fact, I don't see a quill
[21:54:42] <andypugh> It's a 7A 80V Gecko
[21:54:42] <JT-Hardinge> $400 for a run of the mill vise. $75-100 each for tool holders it adds up real quick
[21:55:06] <packrat> hm, the mill already comes with some tool holders and collets
[21:55:09] <cradek> be sure to check to make sure the pull studs are standard and/or available
[21:55:14] <packrat> and we actually got vices already
[21:55:18] <packrat> curiously
[21:55:32] <packrat> have a crazy member who goes to auctions and picks up bits and pieces here and there
[21:55:32] <andypugh> JT-Hardinge: You habe an expensive vice vice. Mine cost £15. Admittedly it is totally rubbish
[21:55:51] <packrat> pull studs cradek?
[21:55:55] <cradek> also check for wear in the middle of travel
[21:55:57] <JT-Hardinge> I'm not talking about a Kurt either
[21:56:46] <packrat> best way to check for wear?
[21:56:47] <andypugh> Kurt? We don't do Kurt in the UK. (Literally, I had never heard of them till I came to #EMC).
[21:57:13] <JT-Hardinge> X will be like a sway back horse if used much that means not very good on Z holding much of a tolerance
[21:57:39] <packrat> ah
[21:58:51] <andypugh> If you have time (a lot of time) that is fixable. There are videos on youtube that describe way scraping.
[21:59:01] <packrat> ew
[21:59:38] <frallzor> whats the machine for?
[21:59:43] <frallzor> the future plan
[21:59:44] <tom3p> packrat, can you get over to Cleveland? look at HGR , for example http://tinyurl.com/23grr94 pick up tooling and machine for near your 800$ ( bargain that price down!)
[21:59:46] <packrat> fun
[21:59:48] <packrat> experimentation
[21:59:50] <andypugh> JT-Hardinge: I keep seeing this Vice in my eBay searches, it does look very nice. But I would hope to get a whole machine for the asking price; http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NOS-4-KURT-type-Vise-Bridgeport-Deckel-Milling-Machine-/350337410527?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item5191bca5df#ht_954wt_862
[21:59:57] <frallzor> why not make one then? =)
[21:59:58] <frallzor> more fun
[22:00:02] <packrat> ugh
[22:00:06] <packrat> no
[22:00:11] <frallzor> or if its just for fun maybe a reprap could be enough
[22:00:21] <packrat> we have like three members trying to make repraps
[22:00:22] <frallzor> 800 pretty much gives a full working machine
[22:00:24] <packrat> all of them dont work
[22:00:39] <frallzor> well if you cant make one of those how could this be a good idea? :)
[22:01:03] <packrat> well, to be fair, the people working on the reprap are not the same as those interested in a mill
[22:01:29] <packrat> tom3p, ill take a look, thanks
[22:01:42] <packrat> curious that we cant really seem to find great deals in fucking detroit though
[22:01:47] <JT-Hardinge> andypugh: that is a nice vise
[22:01:59] <packrat> seriously, where is all the detroit steel everyone talks about
[22:02:11] <tom3p> and to save money, consider a manual mill for now, build some stuff, learn something about what it takes, sell it off & invest in better used cnc.
[22:02:11] <andypugh> Yeah, I have an itchy eBay finger about it.
[22:02:41] <packrat> well, im actually in the process making a sherline mill CNC
[22:03:00] <packrat> just need some nice block of aluminum to drill out
[22:03:13] <tom3p> packrat, most detroit machines are not hobby sized, and many went over the border to windsor/oldcastle/tecumseh
[22:03:22] <andypugh> Or, spend 2.5k on converting a cheap Chinese combination machine and then find that, actually, it's rubbish. DAMHIK, IJKOK
[22:03:48] <packrat> thanks but no :)
[22:04:23] <davidf> SWPadnos, there?
[22:05:02] <packrat> well, so it seems the general consensus on the mill in question is maybe sorta worth the money with the stock steppers and geckos?
[22:05:11] <davidf> SWPadnos, pyvcp.spindle-speed <== absolute-spindle-vel
[22:05:11] <tom3p> packrat, it'd be good to NOT own the machine, but to get an interested owner to join your hackerspace, barter your expertise for time on his mill.
[22:05:50] <davidf> SWPadnos, abs.0.in <== spindle-velocity
[22:05:50] <davidf> abs.0.out ==> absolute-spindle-vel
[22:05:58] <andypugh> There's a Denford Triac on eBay at the moment. It's Mach3 coverted with the front panel disabled. I want to buy it, throw out the Mach 3 PC, put a mini-ITX inside, re-enable the front panel and fit a touchscreen (and Touchy) and, err, well, at that point I run out of plans.
[22:06:00] <packrat> eh, we have trouble enough getting members
[22:06:32] <packrat> again, if we have ten people pitch in 80, sticker shock aint so bad
[22:07:04] <packrat> and funny enough, transportation of that beast is the least of our concerns
[22:07:08] <andypugh> That's a fair point. If the axes move at all, then slow rapids are not something it sounds like you care about.
[22:07:26] <packrat> huh?
[22:07:42] <packrat> slow rapids
[22:07:48] <andypugh> I would say for $800 it's a simple job to get it moving with EMC2.
[22:07:48] <packrat> contradict much? :p
[22:08:36] <tom3p> packrat dont get a lot of people with a little interest, get a few who NEED to get something done ;)
[22:08:47] <packrat> hehe
[22:09:30] <andypugh> If you are interested in the technology then it is also a good buy, because you _will_ be wanting to switch to servos at some point. But that is all part of the fun. If you want to move lots of metal quickly then I don't think that will do that
[22:09:52] <packrat> gotcha
[22:10:03] <Endeavour> Anyone here own a Fireball CNC?
[22:10:23] <davidf> Endeavour, what is that?
[22:10:44] <Endeavour> Heh
[22:10:46] <Endeavour> http://www.probotix.com/FireBall_v90_cnc_router_kit/
[22:14:01] <davidf> Endeavour, thinking of using that for your reprap thingy?
[22:14:08] <andypugh> packrat: As I said, I would buy it, but I already have three 500W servos looking for a home, an almost-functional servo driver circuit board upstairs and a good idea how I am going to write the comp module that will interface the driver to the Mesa card 3-phase PWM driver. Your situation might be different.
[22:14:35] <Endeavour> davidf: Thinking of using it as a router and as a learning tool. I really want to test out EMC2.
[22:14:54] <davidf> pretty expensive learning tool. :)
[22:15:10] <packrat> thanks andypugh
[22:15:42] <andypugh> Endeavour: Painting the stepper yellow doesn't make it look any more adequately sized
[22:15:46] <packrat> assuming we dont want to switch out the steppers though, and run it as-is; you think it would just basically be plug-and-play?
[22:15:58] <davidf> Could be good for milling pcb's
[22:16:16] <andypugh> Yes. But don't ask me to speculate about how well it will play
[22:16:20] <packrat> hehe
[22:17:19] <andypugh> Worst case, though, get it running with EMC2, video it working, and you should get your money back.
[22:17:31] <packrat> ?
[22:17:43] <packrat> you mean, sell to some other chump?
[22:17:49] <andypugh> As in, sold as a working machine, yes
[22:18:01] <packrat> tricksy hobbitses
[22:18:16] <Endeavour> andypugh: ?
[22:18:36] <Endeavour> davidf: Certainly useful though. Make PCBs, as you said, as well as general woodworking.
[22:18:54] <davidf> packrat, andypugh are you guys talking about the mill or Endeavour 's post?
[22:19:04] <Endeavour> Yeah, I'm kind of confused.
[22:19:07] <davidf> hard to tell
[22:19:32] <davidf> yellow motor says Endeavour 's post to me
[22:20:05] <packrat> i was talking about the mill i brought up. i thought he was talking to me too
[22:20:38] <davidf> packrat, OK thanks
[22:21:52] <Endeavour> What machines you got, davidf ?
[22:23:16] <andypugh> Quick ramble about steppers. Steppers can be very good, and very fast. Steppers lose torque very quickly as the speed goes up, due to winding inductance and the fact it is 200 flux reversals per turn. You can compensate to an extent with More Volts. To get high torque you need bigger levers, which means bigger motors. The problem is that the inertia goes up rapidly with diameter, and when all is said and done, regrardless of
[22:23:17] <andypugh> microstepping, they are "step" motors. They need to accellerate that inertia from one step to the next. This means that big steppers lose torque with speed very much faster than small steppers. Once you get about 10Nm then they get _very_ slow unless you go the _very_ high voltages (hundreds of volts)
[22:24:46] <andypugh> Sorry, I was ranting to both of you concurrently
[22:24:49] <davidf> Endeavour, http://www.taigtools.com/mmill.html
[22:25:36] <packrat> good to know
[22:25:53] <davidf> Mine is the one pictured on the right. Model 2019CR-ER described at the bottom of the green text section
[22:25:54] <packrat> so steppers: good for small shit; servos: good for big and fast
[22:26:04] <andypugh> Basically, yes.
[22:26:33] <andypugh> Though You can move pretty big stuff pretty well with steppers (Frallzors Mechmate is a good example)
[22:27:14] <andypugh> The point is that you need to find the right comprmose between too small (not enough torque) and too big (not enough speed)
[22:28:15] <davidf> andypugh, agreed, also with microstepping, you're putting the rotor "between poles" which reduces torque capability in that position
[22:28:16] <JT-Hardinge> T6 M6
[22:28:25] <JT-Hardinge> opps wrong window
[22:30:57] <Endeavour> Cool davidf
[22:31:31] <davidf> I also have a Cummins 7 X 12 mini-lathe retro fitted with emc.
[22:31:50] <atmega> davidf: got pics?
[22:32:22] <davidf> It's a Chinese cheapy made by Seog, similar to the Harbor Freight 7 X 10 (same company makes those for HF.)
[22:32:34] <andypugh> As an example, my lathe/mill thing has a small stepper with a 2.5A controller on Y with an 8mm leadscrew (and I wince using it for big cuts), a bigger stepper and 2.5A controller on the Z, and the same size as Z stepper wired parallel and a 6A controller on X. Z is painfully slow and rather weak. X is OK for speed but stalls on rapids if I tighten the Gibbs down. Y has never actually been a problem, it is fast and has never
[22:32:34] <andypugh> stalled. The small ballscrew helps, because the same reaction force is at a much smaller radius. so the reaction torque is far less. I guess that's something else I have learned, don't oversize your ballscrews.
[22:32:38] <davidf> But with a 2 inch longer ways.
[22:32:57] <davidf> Seig, not Seog
[22:33:26] <davidf> Endeavour, www.littlemachineshop.com
[22:33:47] <packrat> ok, so just so i get this right: to test if there is wear in the middle of the of travel, i should try rocking the ways back and forth while set in the middle?
[22:33:51] <davidf> atmega, Of my actual setup?
[22:33:58] <atmega> of the motor connections
[22:34:15] <packrat> -of
[22:34:16] <davidf> Mechanical connections?
[22:34:21] <atmega> I have a 7x10 I keep planning on doing, never have though.
[22:34:22] <atmega> yeah
[22:34:45] <davidf> I can take some for you but I don't have them atm.
[22:34:47] <andypugh> packrat: You probably aren't strong enough to rock the table.
[22:34:54] <packrat> hah
[22:35:05] <atmega> how about I just send you mine and you mount them for me :)
[22:35:23] <packrat> what would you recommend andypugh?
[22:35:46] <andypugh> Dial indicator held in the chuck measuring to the table (in X and Y) would be a decent test
[22:36:18] <davidf> Ha maybe if you make it worth my while. I was planning on selling a complete kit with all the mounting hardware, shaft couplers,etc
[22:36:20] <packrat> ah yes. we got a few of those
[22:36:38] <atmega> I'll paypal you $20 :)
[22:36:58] <atmega> you have direct motor shaft->screws?
[22:37:03] <davidf> To make all that ? LOL
[22:37:44] <davidf> No, I use the change gears to drive the lead screw (with a stepper)
[22:38:03] <davidf> And I have a direct coupleing on the x axis.
[22:39:02] <davidf> Also I have a geared connection to the Spindle that lets me use it as an indexing head, or I can spin it when I'm doing live-tooling grinding
[22:39:25] <atmega> cool
[22:39:45] <davidf> I use it for production work. I make diamond tools for glass art
[22:39:57] <davidf> (diamond abrasive bits that is.)
[22:40:20] <davidf> Basically fluted reamers
[22:40:34] <davidf> www.artintheround.com
[22:40:46] <davidf> my somewhat crappy website
[22:40:47] <atmega> I made a cover for my rebreather scrubber... too much hassle to get it out lately
[22:42:48] <davidf> atmega, the way I did it requires almost no mads. It is pretty easy to do id if you are really interested
[22:42:57] <andypugh> Which reminds me... My dad wants me to make him some new vernier scales (the short ones, not the long ones) as those on his Kearns borer have rusted into illegibility (fortunately the long ones are fine). He has (we have no idea where from) some curious Clarkson-threaded tools which might well be for engraving, they taper down to a 2mm dia and then have three ground facets to a point. Does that sound familar to anyone?
[22:43:48] <atmega> I have the lathe, spare steppers and controller, even some spare 1/4-1/2 shaft couplers
[22:43:54] <davidf> atmega, The hardest part was figuring out a shaft coupler that wouldn't be beaten to a pulp by the steppers. They can be really hard on couplers
[22:44:06] <davidf> So you're almost there then.
[22:44:06] <atmega> I just don't have much imagination for the motor mounting
[22:44:40] <davidf> OK, that's not hard, but I admit I scratched my head a long time with that one.
[22:44:56] <atmega> a bigger garage would help.
[22:44:56] <davidf> What I did for the x axis is
[22:45:38] <davidf> I used two 6-inch pieces of angle iron attached to the sides of the carriage,
[22:45:56] <andypugh> davidf: website redesign: http://wonder-tonic.com/geocitiesizer/content.php?theme=1&music=10&url=http://www.artintheround.com/
[22:46:04] <davidf> and a motor mounting plate attached to the ends of those
[22:46:25] <andypugh> (Actually, I think that's a nicely laid out site). The original that is.
[22:47:12] <andypugh> Atmega: Use toothed belts. Saves a lot of headaches.
[22:47:58] <andypugh> In fact, buy my spares... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110540511061
[22:48:09] <davidf> andypugh, YIPES! you freaked me out till I saw that it's a php. I was hoping that was the case!!! LOL
[22:49:51] <andypugh> Actually, change the "theme=1" to 3 and I like it.
[22:49:52] <davidf> For the x there's no need for belts. It's easier direct. For the Z, you already have plenty of gears that came with the lathe and the fixture is essentially the same for a belt or gears
[22:50:51] <andypugh> I have tended to use belts as relatively cheap and rugged couplings, and to "wrap around" the axes.
[22:53:52] <davidf> Belts probably have less backlash but there's backlash in the lead screw half nut anyway. I simply always approach the work from the same direction for any critical cut, and then backlask is never an issue.
[22:54:25] <davidf> I can get a couple tenths repeatability on my parts with this setup
[22:54:27] <andypugh> I am still rather pleased with how this belt-driven axis turned out (the X motor sits under the Z leadscrew) http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63621&page=2
[22:54:35] <morfic> davidf: tell that to the hole you want to interpolate (or sphere on a lathe)
[22:54:53] <davidf> Right about that morfic
[22:54:55] <JT-Hardinge> I always leave plenty of room for backlash... when I backlash in a hurry
[22:55:02] <davidf> That is a problm
[22:55:41] <JT-Hardinge> I'd look if it was on the EMC forum
[22:55:44] <davidf> I spoke too soon. Forgot about that cas.
[22:55:47] <davidf> case
[22:56:40] <andypugh> JT-Hardinge: I can give you the URLs for the original images if that helps?
[22:57:23] <morfic> we usually remember to check backlash on our lathes when we turn balls, since the whole "mke sure to always approach the same way" keeps us so lulled, we forget about it
[22:59:16] <davidf> :)
[22:59:47] <andypugh> If there ia anything clever about that axis it is that I moved the thrust bearing arrangement (two angular contact bearings) outboard on a shaft extension and used a little needle roller to handle the belt tension. That solved an otherwise intractable lack-of-space problem.
[23:00:51] <andypugh> Morfic: A big rubber band?
[23:00:58] <JT-Hardinge> andypugh: just pulling on your leg a bit
[23:01:19] <andypugh> JT-Hardinge: And me yours :-)
[23:01:45] <morfic> andypugh: a big rubber band....to help us remember?
[23:01:48] <JT-Hardinge> back at cha then
[23:02:36] <davidf> Or a big rubber band to pre-load the carriage? :)
[23:02:58] <morfic> ok, we are talking *BIG* then, gotcha
[23:03:40] <JT-Hardinge> if only the radio would play some Jerry Jeff Walker I'd get up on the roof and pull out my roofing hammer
[23:04:13] <Jymmm> Well, I got a Honda EU2000 generator
[23:04:14] <morfic> put it on your mp3 player and hammer away?
[23:04:33] <frallzor> * frallzor is going crazy, refreshing ebay status page for the win every 5 minutes
[23:04:53] <Jymmm> fragalot: I could tell you the secret
[23:04:54] <JT-Hardinge> that seemed to be the only songs played while I roofed Dad's house a few years ago
[23:05:00] <Dave911> Jymmm.... so you went for broke ... ;-)
[23:05:07] <Jymmm> Dave911: Define
[23:05:14] <Jymmm> Dave911: Define "broke" ?
[23:05:30] <Dave911> Spent the cash, threw in all the chips , etc
[23:05:50] <Jymmm> Dave911: Spent cash, yes. Threw in all the chips, no.
[23:05:55] <Dave911> Blew the wad .. :-)
[23:06:01] <Jymmm> Dave911: Nope
[23:06:09] <Dave911> Just kidding ..
[23:06:31] <Dave911> Those are nice genny's .. I'm sure you will be happy with it ..
[23:06:53] <andypugh> frallzor: Buy my ballscrews! I am worried that some lucky so-and-so is going to get £100 of ballscrews and ballnuts and 3 weekends of my time for 99p
[23:07:02] <Dave911> The fact that everyone copies it says a lot
[23:07:19] <Jymmm> Dave911: He was selling it for his friend (who I think was going back to Mexico). Got it for $300. Stopped by the local authorized service center and he said it sounded/looked in great condition.
[23:07:41] <Jymmm> I got VERY lucky
[23:07:43] <morfic> ballscrews for 99p? how much is shipping to US?
[23:07:44] <Dave911> You didn't buy that ... you stole it!
[23:07:53] <Jymmm> LOL
[23:08:14] <Jymmm> Dave911: Hey, I have a reciept and everything
[23:08:29] <Dave911> Find a Honda 2000 used that isn't trashed is rare ..
[23:08:55] <Dave911> reciept .. well I suppose the story is plausable then
[23:09:19] <Jymmm> Dave911: I hooked up my KillAWatt meter, and plugged in a huge rice cooker. drew about 1450 watts.
[23:10:22] <Dave911> Now you can cook rice anywhere!
[23:10:42] <Jymmm> WOOHOO!!!! Stir fried rice anyone?????
[23:10:59] <Dave911> In quantity.. !!
[23:11:48] <Dave911> I think that most people who buy Honda genny's plan to include them in their will etc ...
[23:12:06] <Jymmm> there is no fuel filter, and the air filter is really clean (the service tech said they rarely ever get dirty), bought a new spark plug, and already ordered a oil changer/filler tube off of ebay.
[23:13:01] <Jymmm> http://myworld.ebay.com/bwheelr/
[23:13:22] <Dave911> No fuel filter? My Honda 2000 clone has a fuel filter..
[23:13:28] <Jymmm> Dave911: But you're right, I got a GREAT deal on it.
[23:13:42] <Jymmm> Dave911: It has a screen strainer, but that's it.
[23:13:59] <Jymmm> Dave911: I could easily add one
[23:14:19] <Jymmm> Maybe I'll pick up one when I pick a quart of 30w oil
[23:14:34] <Dave911> Oh.. strainer .. ok Yes great is probably an understatement
[23:14:53] <davidf> andypugh, What morfic said.
[23:15:04] <Dave911> I use only Mobil 1 in my gennys... the stuff is cheap compared to any replacement repair costs
[23:15:16] <Jymmm> Dave911: synthetic?
[23:15:31] <Dave911> I think my Kipor takes 10w-30 ... yes 100% synthetic
[23:15:45] <Dave911> About $5 per quart
[23:15:56] <davidf> Yoiks
[23:15:59] <Jymmm> Dave911: Yeah, with that filler tube I order from ebay, I'll change the oil very frequently.
[23:16:13] <Jymmm> davidf: yulks!
[23:16:16] <Jymmm> ;)
[23:16:26] <davidf> Zounds!
[23:16:34] <davidf> Gadzooks!
[23:16:38] <andypugh> davidf, morfic : http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110540511061
[23:16:47] <Jymmm> omgwtfbbq
[23:17:36] <morfic> he wants to start a bidding war
[23:17:47] <davidf> andypugh, wow. Be afraid be very afraid. LOL
[23:17:48] <skunkworks> oh my lady gaga?
[23:18:17] <andypugh> Dave911: I did the sums on Mobil1. My FJ1100 did 120,000 miles on it, during which time I spent £500 on oil. I could get a 10,000 mile engine for £300...
[23:18:19] <davidf> If you have no bids, I think you can add a reserve or edit the starting bid
[23:19:00] <andypugh> I have 4 watchers, so there might be a last-minute frenzy
[23:19:52] <Dave911> What engine can you get with 10K miles on it for 300 pounds ??
[23:20:08] <andypugh> FJ1100?
[23:20:15] <davidf> Yes, iy might go for $10.00!
[23:20:25] <Dave911> I live 150 miles from Detroit and I can't get deal like that!
[23:20:53] <Dave911> Isn't the FJ1100 a British Leyland engine
[23:21:12] <andypugh> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/yamaha-fj-1200-1tx-87-engine-/250632393418
[23:22:02] <Dave911> Oh .. a bike engine... How much do you guys pay for Mobil 1 over there?? I can ship you a case ... :-)
[23:22:21] <andypugh> It's £35 for 5 litres
[23:22:39] <andypugh> 3000 mile oil changes..
[23:23:09] <Dave911> That is high .. we have so much oil around here it is floating on the water.. :-(
[23:23:48] <Dave911> 5 qts of Mobil 1 is about $28-30 depending on where you buy it .
[23:24:34] <davidf> Dave911, U in LA?
[23:24:41] <Dave911> I put synthetic oil in things that are abused ... like my wives car, daughter's car, air compressor, small genny's etc
[23:24:57] <Dave911> Nope ... north shore.. Indiana :-)
[23:25:26] <davidf> Thought you were referencing the BP faux pas
[23:25:36] <Dave911> I am ..
[23:26:03] <andypugh> I want to work on that project. No mass limits and no budget cap. Engineer heaven
[23:26:03] <davidf> Ah. Around here - accross the pond gattcha
[23:26:29] <Dave911> In the big picture of things :-)
[23:26:44] <Dave911> Yes... I have thought the same andypugh
[23:26:56] <davidf> I think I heard on the news they are hiring agressively right now specifically for that project. Go for it.
[23:27:15] <andypugh> Next time it happens everyone is going to say "So, what was BPs problem?" missing the point that next time everyone will know what works.
[23:27:57] <Dave911> Apparently they are paying boat owners $3k per day to skim oil
[23:28:00] <andypugh> Yeah, I got spammed with "Inventor draughtsman, immediate start, Aberdeen"
[23:28:37] <davidf> No I think it was actually BP wanting engineers
[23:28:44] <davidf> On the news
[23:28:57] <Dave911> did you see the link that sealive supplied.... live video of the robots doing the milling..
[23:29:20] <andypugh> I need to update my CV, I have approximately doubled my salary since the agencies last saw it 7 years ago, I get totally non-tempting job-spam.
[23:29:59] <Dave911> BP must be in total disarray right now .... I can't imagine ...
[23:30:41] <morfic> you know you have a huge problem when they can see your spill from space
[23:31:00] <Dave911> Now the gov is going to investigate criminal stuff... watch out...
[23:31:43] <Dave911> They are talking (at least some are - about that stuff getting into the gulf stream -- could get to the east coast
[23:32:01] <morfic> i can't believe anyone would vota against eliminating caps for damages for oil companies, you are too cheap to buy a $500K acoustic switch that could have prevented that? pay through your nose
[23:32:09] <andypugh> It's not that much oil. Really.
[23:33:01] <Jymmm> andypugh: I think one drop of oil can contaminate 100 gallons of water iirc
[23:33:03] <andypugh> morfic: Bear in mind that anytime something goes wrong people with a pet product insist it would have saved the day.
[23:33:19] <Dave911> Depends on what you consider big I guess ..
[23:33:21] <morfic> it really only bothers me that there is a device that works, is available for chump change and they decided to skip it
[23:33:40] <Jymmm> morfic: they couldn't afford it
[23:33:58] <Jymmm> morfic: They only make millions a day
[23:34:01] <Dave911> I understand that BP is required to use Acoustic switches in the north sea ... but the US decided not needed in the gulf ...
[23:34:24] <morfic> Dave911: that's Cheney to you
[23:34:33] <andypugh> They follow the regs, it what shareholders expecr
[23:34:37] <Dave911> Since it was only 5000 feet!! 8-O
[23:34:40] <Jymmm> DICK cheney
[23:35:12] <Jymmm> andypugh: Hey, it's called doing the RIGHT thing, not the minimal you can get away with.
[23:35:37] <andypugh> Something I posted to another list. In context is was to an american who is sceptical about climate change:
[23:35:41] <andypugh> have been thinking about this some more, and I have done some sums...
[23:35:42] <andypugh> Volume of the Atlantic is 354,700,000,000 km.
[23:35:42] <andypugh> Mass of the Atlantic is therefore approximately 3.5x10^20 kg
[23:35:42] <andypugh> Mass of the atmosphere is 5x10^18kg
[23:35:43] <andypugh> Flow rate out of the Deepwater Horizon blowout is 5000 barrels a day.
[23:35:43] <andypugh> Daily oil consumption worldwide is 85,000,000 barrels a day.
[23:35:43] <andypugh> Every day we throw 17,000x as much oil into something that weighs
[23:35:44] <andypugh> 1/100th as much as the Atlantic, and have been doing so for a century.
[23:35:44] <andypugh> (I am ignoring coal, you note).
[23:35:44] <andypugh> If one believes that we are powerless to change the composition of the
[23:35:44] <andypugh> atmosphere then this oil leak is truly a drop in the ocean.
[23:35:50] <Dave911> morfic ... yes.. unfortunately part of those lost 8 years ..
[23:35:55] <Jymmm> I bet their shareholders are happy now...NOT!
[23:36:10] <morfic> Dave911: glorious if you ask some :/
[23:37:35] <Dave911> Interesting comparison andypugh
[23:38:17] <andypugh> Jymmm: any business has a _duty_ to its shareholders to spend the least possible amount that regulations allow. I don't think that is right, and that is why I prefer personally owned companies, they are allowed to view the bigger picture beyond the next quartrs dividends.
[23:38:17] <morfic> if we say we burn it all, sure, but some is lawn chairs, grocery bags, tires
[23:39:11] <morfic> the issue is, we let them do this, the previous administration allowed it, and the current administration gets to deal with it
[23:39:34] <davidf> or not
[23:39:36] <Dave911> The real problem is that the spill has the potential to trash the gulf states .... and have long term consequences for the gulf, Keys etc
[23:39:37] <Jymmm> andypugh: Yeah, " Just because you can, doesn't mean you should" is something I believe in.
[23:39:57] <andypugh> Indeed, but then we burn coal and gas too. My guess is that the other fossil fuels more than offset the persistent polymers
[23:40:21] <pfred1> Dave911 but weren't the gulf states always trashed?
[23:40:46] <pfred1> Dave911 I mean the only reason there is a new Orleans is because the French thought it was a great place to leave people to die
[23:40:52] <andypugh> Worst case: http://www.xkcd.com/
[23:41:21] <Dave911> pfred1: No... I don't think so ..
[23:41:44] <pfred1> Dave911 better read some history then because new Orleans started out as a penal colony
[23:41:51] <Dave911> The gulf is a big area .. sure some areas are dumps - always have been.. but washing oil up on the shore ...
[23:42:01] <pfred1> it was pretty much considered a death sentance to be sent there
[23:42:08] <morfic> andypugh: don't get me wrong, i am all for solar/wind, heck even public transportation, so i don't need a car to get anywhere, i mean in germany, i could walk to grocery stores, bakery, take a bus to work, here, in this town, this state, no car==got nothing to do, to earn
[23:42:22] <Dave911> I've been to New Orleans and the gulf .... some areas are nice .. others are not ...
[23:42:37] <pfred1> well they're all lining up to sue BP now
[23:42:41] <Dave911> Detroit isn't exactly a great place to hang out either ..
[23:43:10] <pfred1> yeah if only we could get maybe Shell to do a little drilling in the lakes ...
[23:43:16] <andypugh> Yeah, I have read on t'internet of places in the US where there is _literally_ no way to get to the shops without a car.
[23:43:34] <Dave911> Hey ... now there is an idea !! :-(
[23:43:53] <Dave911> andypugh ..... most places are like that
[23:43:58] <pfred1> andypugh unless you live in a major city that is how the country is its like being marooned on a desert island
[23:44:05] <Dave911> The US is one huge country
[23:44:16] <andypugh> Yeah, destroy the british and the dutch oil companies, bomb the arabs, and J R Ewing gets to rule the world.
[23:44:26] <pfred1> closest grocery store to me is about 6 miles away
[23:44:37] <pfred1> used to be 11 but they built a closer one
[23:45:38] <andypugh> pfred1: But you could presumably walk or cycle there given time? The case I read of was a trailer park on a freeway where it was actually illegal to go to the shops any other way than by car.
[23:46:00] <morfic> funny thing is, i work in a small town 40 miles from my house, wife works about half as far from here, "other side of town" and she gets home after me if we leave work at the same time
[23:46:06] <pfred1> then there's always Wilsons: http://www.city-data.com/picfilesv/picv9337.php
[23:46:11] <Dave911> Go to Google and pick just about any spot in the US away from the cities .. and go to local view .. lots and lots of space ..
[23:46:45] <pfred1> andypugh if I tried to shop without a car I could get maybe 2 small bags of groderies and it'd take me about an hour each way
[23:46:59] <pfred1> so I'd spend my entire life just going to get supplies
[23:47:24] <Dave911> I think the average commute time to and from work in the US by car is about 1/2 hr ... I know many people who drive 1 hour+ each way to work ... nuts yes ..
[23:47:29] <morfic> actually only 16 miles for her, wow, traffic suck
[23:48:00] <pfred1> I lived most of my life 10 miles outside of NYC so I know about traffic
[23:48:15] <morfic> btw working in a little town about 40 miles from home, any texas (CNC) machinists looking for a job?
[23:48:27] <andypugh> FWIW I do shop without a car (I have never owned one, hateful devices, too slow) but the online delivery services make that a non issue (my last shop arrived a few hours ago at 2045)
[23:48:30] <Dave911> Sorry to hear that pfred1 ....... I could not live that close to NYC
[23:48:30] <pfred1> I can remember sitting on the loop going into the lincoln tunnel for over 3 hours
[23:48:58] <pfred1> 3 hours to go maybe 2 miles
[23:49:10] <morfic> .67MPH
[23:49:19] <MattyMatt> I'm a London boy. any trumps from tokyo?
[23:49:26] <pfred1> yeah you cluld have crawled on your hands and knees faster
[23:49:53] <pfred1> Dave911 it didn't bother me too much when I was younger but eventually it did get to me
[23:49:55] <andypugh> pfred1: Ever been to Brussels? I live for all intents and purposes in London. Brussels is horrible.
[23:50:08] <Dave911> .67 mph .. sort of like LA!
[23:50:17] <pfred1> andypugh worse than the south bronx is it?
[23:50:17] <MattyMatt> ~20 years ago we raced car, bus and bike clean across london. it was nearly a tie
[23:51:20] <andypugh> MattyMatt: No powerboat? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkOzNK4l8KY
[23:51:24] <pfred1> andypugh in america if you want to visit an exotic country it is never further away than your local convienence store
[23:51:25] <MattyMatt> I expect the bike would win today
[23:52:17] <Dave911> pfred1 .... ha ha ha ....
[23:53:03] <pfred1> Dave911 I've walked into places and been assaulted by strange music odd attire and uncomprehensible languages all before making it past the checkout counter
[23:54:03] <pfred1> you expect Rod Serling to lean out from the magazine rack and start on his whole twilight zone speel
[23:56:32] <MattyMatt> we don't say "local convienence store" we say "indian shop"
[23:56:48] <Jymmm> how
[23:57:07] <andypugh> by the way, that youtube video is pretty good, if you don;t have it in a window already
[23:57:31] <andypugh> Weused to say "paki shop" but that was banned
[23:57:40] <MattyMatt> yep I guessed it'd be top gear :)
[23:57:55] <pfred1> well I was going to say 7 11 but the phenomenon is hardly limited to just that establishment and I don't think they're all even indians either
[23:58:17] <MattyMatt> they're not. mostly kurds here atm
[23:58:49] <pfred1> in the USA it can be almost any exotic people seems like once one gets their foot in the door they bring their whole family in
[23:59:02] <andypugh> Extraordinarily fat Essex girls here.
[23:59:29] <pfred1> where I'm at now oddly enough its these russian gangster girls
[23:59:39] <MattyMatt> working too close to the twixes