#emc | Logs for 2010-05-28

[00:02:04] <Valen> Archivist, when you look at the speed this thing is running at http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2007/12/laser_engraving_fingernai.html
[00:07:02] <archivist> load scan line to fpga and use opto from x to shift out
[00:07:37] <Valen> thats what I was thinking, don't even need FPGA, AVR/PIC would suffice
[00:09:10] <penguin> archivist, can you send me the configuration or something to start with?
[00:12:06] <archivist> I have no configuration, Im just stating a method
[00:13:32] <penguin> do you have some code or anything?.... anything helps ;)
[00:14:24] <archivist> and because you link the pixel rate to opto, speed does not matter too much it just varies the burn
[00:16:30] <archivist> that would mean I either show code that belongs to a previous company or I write fresh, or better you write it as you need :)
[00:17:41] <archivist> you may notice Valen and I can understand the basic algorithm and thats now in the log
[00:27:18] <penguin> archivist, you tell me think scan line not individual pixels. Could you give me an example?. I need to position manually the laser in each pixel and change the PWM value.
[00:27:58] <penguin> like: G01 X1 laser off, G01 X1.1 laser on, etc
[00:29:28] <davidf> Hi.
[00:29:43] <archivist> no, set some hardware to do it, you only need to control x and y and let the X opto drive the laser with values from memory
[00:31:05] <davidf> Eagle free version is limited to 2 X 3 inches, right? So has anyone tried, (& how did it work out) to make a larger board by combining PCB plots? TIA...
[00:31:54] <Valen> davidf you can try kicad its free and unlimited
[00:33:10] <davidf> I downloaded that and it seemed difficult to use but I admit I didn't try too hard at it. Do you use it?
[00:34:27] <davidf> I also dl'd gschem & PCB, that seems pretty good but the disjointed, all-over-the-place interface kind of sucks somewhat.
[00:35:23] <Valen> I've been using it for my newest project, it seems ok, not much harder to use than eagle
[00:35:50] <morficmobile> I got a reminder about how soft steel is today. 700 sfm and .010/Rev on a .421 drill makes things move.
[00:37:36] <davidf> well that's encouraging. I want to mill the traces on the board directly, can I get the back side oriented so I can do that?
[00:41:31] <morficmobile> Mill one layer, flip over mill other layer?
[00:43:34] <davidf> I think so. I'm kind of confused because I don't really understand how the gerber files are set up. Do you know if I would have to mirror the sloder side or not?
[00:44:04] <davidf> And actually if I could just do a single sided board at this point I'd be happy.
[00:46:34] <Valen> I don't like the idea of milling PCB's toner transfer is really easy ;->
[00:47:23] <morficmobile> Ah it sounded to me like you had the geometry and just needed some encouragement on the setup
[00:48:09] <morficmobile> When I watch videos if PCB being milled it looks painful.
[00:48:40] <davidf> I agree it looks pretty slow.
[00:48:56] <morficmobile> Hey JT-Dev
[00:49:05] <JT-Dev> hey
[00:49:23] <davidf> But if you don't cut out all the excess copper it doesn't seem too bad. Som people say online they like it much better...
[00:50:41] <morficmobile> The copper left helps with emf, no?
[00:52:35] <davidf> I would guess so but I don't know if that would always be true. I guess if you grounded it all...
[00:54:11] <morficmobile> Just as I was going to ask him something :)
[00:54:17] <Valen> too slow ;->
[00:54:29] <davidf> I'm a bit frustrated with PCB because it doesn't seem to behave the way the manual says. It's probably something I'm doing wrong
[00:54:48] <Valen> we do toner transfer , if you dip a rag in the etchant you can basically wipe off the copper
[00:55:43] <davidf> I never tried it that way. Just the swirl in the dish method. Hard o get a good result that way if you have small traces.
[00:56:34] <Valen> depends how small small is
[00:56:47] <Valen> we comfertably go in between dip pads
[00:56:56] <davidf> At the University where I used to work one of the guys in the lab would heat the etchant and flush the board with a small pump. Worked very well that way. But you get a lot of HCL in the air...
[00:57:58] <davidf> I want to try the mill. I have a little Taig with EMC2 that does a pretty good job on metal etc.
[00:58:01] <Valen> that would be "exciting"
[00:58:10] <davidf> What HCL?
[00:58:28] <davidf> Yeah so exciting it makes you cry. :)
[00:58:28] <Valen> yeah
[00:58:37] <Valen> when all your stuff rusts
[00:58:50] <davidf> Yup.
[00:59:05] <davidf> Outside is the way to go unless it's winter.
[00:59:18] <davidf> Or in a fume hood.
[00:59:29] <Valen> we used ferric chloride, I think, whatever that one your not sposed to use anymore ;->
[00:59:50] <davidf> Why not ferric cl?
[01:00:06] <davidf> That was what I always used.
[01:00:18] <Valen> probably toxic if the kiddies drink it or something
[01:00:25] <davidf> not green enough?
[01:00:37] <davidf> Well, duh.
[01:00:38] <davidf> LOL
[01:01:04] <davidf> Lots of FE and CU, good for you no?
[01:01:32] <Valen> its the people who use their soldering iron to keep their coffee warm that bother me
[01:03:18] <davidf> I wish somebody here used PCB it seems almost perfect except I can't seem to get the traces moved to the back layer. I can move the parts but not the traces. I know I'm just doing something wrong and it's probably a simple thing but haven't figured it out after two days of screwing around. ARGH!
[01:03:30] <davidf> YIPES!
[01:04:29] <davidf> I had a friend that told me his Dad used to take two iron nails, wired to 120 V AC, and stick them in his coffee to heat it. Really.
[01:04:46] <davidf> S/B worth a Darwin I think...
[01:05:24] <davidf> Geez.
[01:06:22] <davidf> He was still alive though. Probably never got anemia either.
[01:07:05] <davidf> Maybe I'll try Kicad again.
[01:07:14] <davidf> I have it on my box.
[01:07:49] <Valen> davidf honorable mention at least
[01:10:25] <davidf> Yeah, not in the same league with the guy who left his 38 on the nightstand next to the phone and answered the wrong device when the phone rang
[01:10:54] <davidf> That's real acheivement there.
[01:14:12] <davidf> Valen, any suggestion for getting started quickly with kicad? any tuts?
[01:14:26] <Valen> theres a mini tutorial around somewhere
[01:14:39] <Valen> http://kicad.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Mini_tutorial
[01:14:47] <Valen> good enough to get in trouble with
[01:15:24] <davidf> If anybody can, it's me. :) Thanks.
[01:17:16] <davidf> Valen, BTW I don't know if you'd have any need of this or maybe you are already aware of it, but there is a prog. called gcam that generates g-code from gerber files. It works pretty well
[01:18:00] <davidf> But you said you didn't care to do milling anway... But the drilling aspect might be worth it right?
[01:19:51] <Valen> for drilling I'm keen on it, although everything is looking surface mount these days
[01:20:54] <davidf> yeah I'm kinda dreading the day when the last through hole chip gets soldered in. :)
[01:23:02] <davidf> Makes me think of my old Mom - born 1915, got around in a one-horse open sleigh (literally, in Vt. as a kid) and saw missions to mars before she went up yonder.
[01:23:09] <morfic> nothing wrong with using DIP-8 on your headphone amp :)
[01:24:11] <davidf> not a thing.
[01:31:52] <Valen> got SMP working on penguins machine
[01:32:00] <Valen> got an interesting latency number http://imagebin.ca/view/Lvl6mj.html!
[01:32:21] <penguin> look SWPadnos
[01:32:26] <penguin> the link of valen
[01:33:01] <penguin> he just help me with the SMP
[01:33:42] <morfic> that's 156ms?
[01:33:59] <Valen> pretty spectacular
[01:34:09] <Valen> given it gets 8ms on uniprocessor
[01:34:45] <penguin> i didn't do any particular... a fresh install of ubuntu and i follow a guide i wrote :s
[01:36:51] <morfic> Valen: you mean same machine on UP kernel?
[01:36:58] <Valen> yeah
[01:37:15] <Valen> so there is definatly something hinky there
[01:37:29] <penguin> it's a kernel thing
[01:38:22] <morfic> not sure how cpu affinity affects rtai or vice versa, sure are interesting numbers
[01:38:23] <KimK> davidf: Can I try any example to move traces from the front layer to the back layer? What is the overall goal that you are trying to achieve?
[01:38:41] <Valen> has isocpus on so RTAI is sposed to have its own CPU
[01:39:04] <Valen> would be my guess with it getting so freaky that its a bug in that "experimental" kernel
[01:39:26] <morfic> it's isolcpu, not isocpu, right?
[01:39:57] <Valen> yeah, its right I double checked it ;->
[01:40:06] <Valen> and yeah with the l
[01:40:39] <penguin> experimental?
[01:40:51] <morfic> makes me wanna build an rtai kernel here just to see how this laptop does on this test, it sucks in windows with random spikes
[01:41:29] <penguin> there is an alternative to experimental?
[01:41:32] <Valen> if you have EMC installed, you can just grab the SMP kernels from the experimental section to the site
[01:41:38] <Valen> penguin not for SMP
[01:42:32] <davidf> KimK Hi!
[01:42:44] <penguin> SWPadnos, are you there?
[01:43:26] <morfic> Valen: this is not ubuntu, and right now i only got the sim built here
[01:43:28] <Valen> I had better take my dogs for a walk
[01:43:40] <Valen> you have emc sim running under windows?
[01:43:49] <morfic> other distro
[01:43:58] <Valen> oh I c
[01:44:04] <davidf> OK, what I am trying to figure out is ultimately how do I get a PCB g-code file the has the copper side oriented so that I can mill the traces. Are we on the same page with that, first?
[01:44:08] <morfic> emc2 in cygwin? sounds like a fun project :)
[01:44:28] <Valen> morfic ok your too nuts, go help penguin that'll cure you ;-P
[01:44:51] <KimK> davidf: Hi. Yes, I think so.
[01:44:59] <penguin> maybe if i use 2.3 instead of 2.4
[01:46:16] <davidf> OK, I can pastebin a simple PCB file I think. Should I do that?
[01:46:19] <KimK> davidf: Shall I go fiddle with gEDA PCB for a while with that in mind and get back to you?
[01:46:35] <davidf> That's fine. That would be great.
[01:46:54] <morfic> Valen: ah nah, you missed the air quote i put around fun
[01:47:06] <Valen> penguin that won't change it I dont think
[01:47:15] <Valen> but its easy enough to try I spose
[01:47:27] <Valen> hell just try master
[01:47:33] <Valen> go for the cutting edge ;->
[01:47:35] <KimK> davidf: OK. sure, I could use your example, but I was just going to lay out a capital R and play with that, if that's OK?
[01:47:37] <penguin> if this is solved, i can write the article
[01:47:47] <penguin> and everyone will be capable of run smp
[01:47:47] <Valen> igtg bbl
[01:48:12] <penguin> please, morfic, take a look
[01:49:14] <morfic> penguin: oh no, i am not the person you want to ask for help, i have no running emc machine to reference from, don't have enough background knowledge to help you, sorry
[01:49:18] <davidf> Perfect as long as it is copper traces and not text. It might be helpful if you also put a couple components like one chip and a couple resistors with traces so we can see how the silk layer etc works into the scheme of things as well...
[01:50:40] <KimK> OK, I'll go see what kind of a mess I can make. I'll try to check back every so often in case you think of something else. Back in a bit.
[01:51:12] <davidf> In the library window you can open the ~geda lib and get a generic DIP14300 or 300DIP14 or something like that...
[01:51:41] <davidf> Thanks!
[01:51:50] <JPM_Thinkpad> Could someone please point me in the right direction? What dictates GPIO pin to Physical pin linkage with the mesa cards. Is it the pin file?
[01:52:30] <cradek> JPM_Thinkpad: if you load the mesa module and then look in dmesg, it will spell out the mapping that results from your requested configuration
[01:53:10] <davidf> KimK, back in 20 min.
[01:53:39] <JPM_Thinkpad> OOPS that was on page two of the manual. Thanks Cradek!
[01:54:16] <cradek> JPM_Thinkpad: those numbers take some getting used to... I put stickers on all my opto22 boards with the gpio number.
[02:00:31] <JPM_Thinkpad> Cradek: I bet. any experience on how the gpio gets maped when using a daughter card
[02:01:59] <cradek> depends on the card - each mesa daughter card has a table in its docs showing how it wires up.
[02:03:38] <JPM_Thinkpad> connect the dots then
[02:17:26] <cradek> yep that's the ticket
[02:20:37] <JPM_Thinkpad> Thanks dmesg helped out just have to setup i/o and then on to tuning servos this weekend.
[02:20:50] <cradek> welcome. what kind of machine are you working on?
[02:21:45] <penguin> ok, i think i have the ultimate question. If all gcode lines are the same, the time execution depends only in the servo thread? (for example: G01 X1,G01 X1,G01 X1,G01 X1,G01 X1,G01 X1...)
[02:22:02] <JPM_Thinkpad> bridgeport clone setting up 2 xais right now and then the 3rd withing the next month or so
[02:22:34] <cradek> neat. is it dc servos with analog control?
[02:23:20] <JPM_Thinkpad> AC servo Analog control drives setup for torque control
[02:23:53] <cradek> neat - more modern technology than I have around...
[02:24:02] <JPM_Thinkpad> I got really mad when acu-rite would not sell me a control
[02:24:33] <JPM_Thinkpad> So i said piss on it and started working on a EMC control
[02:25:14] <cradek> nobody ever got fired for picking Free software :-)
[02:25:38] <atmega> we have signs at work saying "sometimes free isn't really free" for software
[02:25:49] <atmega> and go on to completely misinterpret GPL
[02:26:26] <cradek> huh
[02:26:31] <cradek> signs?
[02:26:40] <JPM_Thinkpad> Its for my own machine. I thought it was funny in these times that a company did not want to sell a product
[02:26:56] <atmega> poster type signs
[02:27:15] <cradek> atmega: bizarre
[02:27:34] <atmega> a series of them starting with "how can I get software I need"... one of which basically says "free software might encumber our product"
[02:28:29] <Dave911> Don't ya think they would think that one through just a bit more ??
[02:28:36] <atmega> no
[02:28:53] <cradek> * cradek shrugs
[02:28:53] <Dave911> Is this a reflection of the mgmt?
[02:28:58] <atmega> well, one would think so yes...unless one knows the people originating the signs
[02:29:01] <atmega> yes
[02:29:20] <Dave911> sorry ..
[02:30:14] <Dave911> You should tell them to look at what other large successful companies are doing.. and they might rethink those signs
[02:30:41] <atmega> 'they' aren't real management, they are our outsourced/internal IT/PC/etc people
[02:31:46] <cradek> heh, figures
[02:31:50] <Dave911> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-9967593-16.html
[02:32:54] <Dave911> I used to work for Siemens .... those guys all all about IP rights .... huge in fact... when I saw them get into open source ... I knew that they spent some serious legal fees to figure out if it was right or not ...
[02:33:35] <Dave911> FWIW ..
[02:34:13] <Dave911> But I am probably preaching to the choir ... ;-)
[02:34:18] <atmega> oh yeah
[02:35:08] <Dave911> cradek: do you have an experimental 10.4 version running now?
[02:35:19] <atmega> we did have some corp. initiative to go to an internally run sourceforge thing
[02:35:43] <atmega> vs. a bunch of MS sourcesafe and other methods
[02:36:39] <cradek> I've read that sourcesafe is the worst revision control system of all time
[02:37:13] <atmega> even msft doesn't use it
[02:37:23] <Dave911> ha ha ...
[02:37:51] <atmega> it's not much of a revision control, but it is ok for a repository for using visual studio
[02:38:19] <cradek> The final version of the product, Visual SourceSafe 2005, is retired from mainstream support on 12 April 2011
[02:38:36] <atmega> we have a local source safe installation, I stick PLC code, motor code, camera code, etc in it
[02:39:10] <atmega> they aren't really diff'able anyway so it works ok for taht
[02:39:42] <Dave911> Why is that better than just shoving the info onto a raid server?
[02:40:09] <atmega> we have a big Configuration Control thing
[02:41:04] <atmega> systems are customer auditable, the VSS method allows check in history and binary verification against the running code
[02:41:08] <davidf> KimK, How's it going?
[02:47:13] <penguin> gcode line execution time depends on what?
[02:47:17] <Dave911> ok... that's right nuclear stuff...
[02:48:28] <penguin> 1000 gcode lines per second, for example
[02:48:48] <penguin> what is related with gcode line execution time?
[02:48:54] <Valen> I believe that the gcode is processed by the motion planner
[02:49:16] <penguin> valen, that is the movement between two different positions
[02:49:23] <penguin> i think
[02:49:46] <penguin> i mean only the line execution, not the movement after the execution
[02:50:11] <Valen> no, it takes gcode in, and then takes into account your machines accelerations and such and comes up with the path the tool is to follow out
[02:50:16] <Valen> then feeds that into the servo
[02:50:54] <penguin> if there is no movement: G01 X1, G01 X1
[02:51:08] <penguin> there is a execution time
[02:51:42] <Valen> the execution time coming up in axis means it has nothing whatsoever to do with the servo thread
[02:52:31] <penguin> you mean the servo thread and gcode execution time are not related?
[02:52:42] <Valen> that is my understanding yes
[02:53:01] <penguin> then, it's only the motion planner?
[02:53:29] <Valen> i believe that is what the module is called but I could be wrong
[02:54:12] <penguin> so, the next thing is take a look to the motion planner and see what can be modified
[02:54:54] <Valen> I really dont think you are solving the problem the right way
[02:55:08] <Valen> you are trying to hone the cylinders on your engine with a hammer
[02:57:19] <Valen> penguin how fast do you actually need to process g code?
[02:57:51] <penguin> 1000 lines of gcode per second is slow
[02:58:06] <Valen> I was under the impression before that the problem you were having was when you issued a spindle speed command it upset the que and it needed to be refilled
[02:58:25] <Valen> where are you pulling this 1000lines number from? as far as i can tell you have made it up
[02:58:31] <penguin> yes, the spindle speed takes a while to change the value
[02:58:46] <penguin> i suppose that every command takes a while to execute
[02:59:07] <penguin> because a timing
[02:59:23] <penguin> valen, can you take a look here:
[02:59:24] <penguin> http://github.com/jedediah/graster/blob/master/hal/mask.hal
[02:59:37] <penguin> tell me if you find something interesting :p
[03:00:14] <penguin> i found this interesting:
[03:00:15] <penguin> loadrt stepgen step_type=0,0 ctrl_type=v,v
[03:00:21] <penguin> uses "velocity mode"
[03:00:25] <Valen> I dont know hal or steppers
[03:01:04] <Valen> penguin your other option is not to raster your laser
[03:01:29] <Valen> turn it on to a set laser power then pass over all the points that have that intensity
[03:01:47] <penguin> yes, this is a option too
[03:01:49] <Valen> if you have large areas of flat colours it should work out pretty fast and you wont have the spindle speed commands
[03:02:12] <penguin> i can reduce the gray levels
[03:02:24] <Valen> it will also allow you to scale your images without them pixelating as much
[03:02:43] <penguin> yes, i'm doing that now
[03:03:02] <penguin> it's a temporal solution
[03:03:21] <Valen> why is it temporary? how many grey levels do you use?
[03:04:06] <penguin> if i want to engrave a picture with 256 levels of gray, it will take a long time
[03:04:17] <penguin> unless i reduce the gray levels
[03:04:27] <Valen> can you actually see that much detail in the engraved surface?
[03:04:55] <Valen> I cant see you getting enough contrast to pick between more than like 8 levels if its something normal in terms of surface
[03:05:22] <penguin> maybe in some materials 2 or 4 levels of gray are fine
[03:07:13] <Valen> then it shouldn't take much longer really
[03:07:25] <penguin> suposse i have a black and white phto
[03:07:27] <penguin> photo
[03:07:42] <Valen> archivist and swpadnos have both said you just need to create a new hal module to do it
[03:07:47] <jpm> Does anybody have experience with the 7i37 daughter board
[03:07:55] <Valen> 5i22 here sorry
[03:08:29] <Valen> oh wait i was thinking the wrong thing
[03:08:32] <penguin> inside the flat region of black, the laser moves because the motion planner
[03:08:36] <Valen> yes we have a 7i73
[03:08:47] <Valen> ffs 7i37
[03:09:08] <jpm> how did you wire the inputs if i may ask
[03:09:18] <penguin> both in the edge, it's necessary add an extra instruction: "stop burning"
[03:09:19] <Valen> ahh, that bit we havent done lol
[03:09:31] <penguin> that means 2 intructions at the edges
[03:09:47] <penguin> so, at the edges burns more
[03:09:49] <Valen> it didn't seem that hard though jpm?
[03:10:06] <Valen> penguin because it stops while it changes spindle speeds
[03:10:28] <penguin> yes... change speed takes a while
[03:10:35] <penguin> and burn more
[03:10:38] <Valen> so its not a gcode block rate problem
[03:10:40] <penguin> in this time
[03:10:55] <penguin> no?
[03:11:34] <Valen> no because any time you issue a spindle speed change it will stop for a while, you can reduce that "while" somewhat but you won't stop it
[03:11:51] <Valen> you need to not use the spindle control for your laser power output
[03:12:08] <penguin> a digital output maybe?
[03:12:26] <morfic> wasn't there a laser not use the psindle thread on the mailing list? something about what? M61/M62?
[03:12:29] <Valen> as everybody has suggested a HAL module may do it
[03:13:08] <Valen> morfic tool change? that'd still trigger that delay he's seeing i'd think?
[03:13:56] <Valen> do you know if its possible to get a PWM output for something other than spindle?
[03:13:59] <morfic> M6 is toolchange
[03:14:15] <penguin> morfic, do you know if a HAL module can help?
[03:14:19] <Valen> IE basically create a PWM servo with the parallel port
[03:14:26] <Valen> I must have googled wrong
[03:15:04] <morfic> M61 i see says "set current tool", M62-M65 are digital outputshttp://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode_main.html#sec:M62-to-M65
[03:15:05] <toast_> toast_ is now known as toastydeath
[03:15:19] <Valen> yeah I just looked at that
[03:15:23] <morfic> Valen: so not completely wrong to think of tools, just not triggering the toolchange
[03:15:35] <Valen> that would do the job but he needs a PWM output
[03:16:01] <Valen> which is what a HAL module would presumably be able to do for him ;->
[03:16:09] <penguin> morfic: there is a way to change pwm value rapidly?
[03:16:18] <penguin> "rapidly" exist?
[03:16:34] <Valen> penguin if its your own HAL module you can do whatever you want, it wont upset the motion planner
[03:16:40] <Valen> or the queue
[03:17:26] <penguin> this is a hal module?
[03:17:27] <penguin> http://github.com/jedediah/graster/blob/master/hal/mask.hal
[03:17:37] <Valen> no it is using hal modules
[03:17:47] <Valen> you need to write C code I believe
[03:18:17] <Endeavour> Hello.
[03:18:20] <morfic> penguin: i am still the wrong person for in depth questions :)
[03:18:24] <Endeavour> Most of you all have your own machines?
[03:18:32] <penguin> who knows hal programming?
[03:18:45] <davidf> SWPadnos,
[03:18:54] <Valen> morfic doesn't but when he does he will make me cry with its awesomeness ;-P
[03:19:26] <davidf> knows everything inthe universe I think.
[03:19:36] <Valen> and then some
[03:19:44] <morfic> Endeavour: no, not me, i will work on it for my boss, note the future tense
[03:20:03] <penguin> i think SWPadnos is sleeping
[03:20:07] <Endeavour> Ah.
[03:20:24] <Endeavour> I'm working on a Mill and 3D Printer.
[03:20:40] <davidf> Cool. RepRap?
[03:20:48] <Endeavour> Sort of.
[03:20:55] <penguin> RepRapRip
[03:21:03] <davidf> evn cooler maybe. :)
[03:21:09] <Endeavour> Making one of those right now, but doing something different and thinking about using EMC2 as well.
[03:21:14] <morfic> if you stick SWPadnos, cradek, alex_joni, jepler, Dave911, and those like them who have gone unoticed may know the emc universe, i don't think one of them "knows it all"
[03:21:43] <Endeavour> Don't like the RepRap software. Talked with Bill Hastings of the DIY Li'l CNC stuff, and ended up finding EMC2.
[03:23:08] <davidf> I saw something about someone using a Taig mill for the maotion with emc and substituted an extruder for the spindle yesterday.
[03:23:55] <davidf> S/B not too difficult to marry the two.
[03:24:21] <Endeavour> Hm, cool.
[03:24:46] <davidf> I'll check my history $ see if I can find it...
[03:25:05] <morfic> told my buddy about the 700sfm and .010/rev on a .421 drill, he couldn't figure rpm and ipm :/
[03:26:52] <davidf> Endeavour, http://objects.reprap.org/wiki/EMCRepRap
[03:27:37] <Endeavour> Hah, cool.
[03:27:41] <Endeavour> Was actually unaware of that.
[03:28:36] <davidf> If you don't need the replication part of the equation, why reinvent the wheel?
[03:29:06] <Endeavour> Exactly.
[03:29:32] <Endeavour> That's part of the reason why I'm looking at EMC2 - I'm not interesting in self replication, and want something that's more versatile.
[03:29:36] <davidf> Or the self-replicationg terminator-in-infancy maybe... Woooo....
[03:29:43] <Endeavour> I saw Bill Hasting's DIY Li'l CNC and was very impressed.
[03:29:54] <davidf> Where's that?
[03:30:20] <Endeavour> www.diylilcnc.org
[03:30:29] <Endeavour> There are a few pictures of his machine on that site.
[03:32:57] <davidf> Looks good. What's the x,y travel?
[03:33:10] <davidf> looks like maybe 12 by 12?
[03:34:15] <jpm> Can i force an output using a hal command
[03:35:41] <Endeavour> davidf: I don't recall offhand.
[03:35:52] <Endeavour> You have a machine?
[03:36:28] <jpm> yes
[03:40:49] <davidf> I have a retrofitted Seig 7 X 12 lathe and a Cnc Taig mill.
[03:41:33] <davidf> Lathe and mill both running emc
[03:42:39] <davidf> Are you familiar with the Taig mini mill?
[03:43:08] <davidf> www.taigtools.com
[03:44:13] <davidf> Owner of that Co is a retired NASA employee. Nice quality, well designed.
[03:44:25] <davidf> Out of Texas.
[03:52:00] <KimK> davidf: Oops, sorry, I've been gone awhile. This page helped: http://www.geda.seul.org/wiki/geda:pcb_tips Where I found Shift-M to move selected tracks to the current side. I'm still not sure about surface mount parts, they appear to have pads on both sides but I may be mistaken, still looking at it.
[03:54:08] <davidf> KimK, np prob! you're on a roll.
[03:56:06] <davidf> I'm looking at kicad again at Valen's suggestion. He pointed me to a tutorial. So far (almost immediately) I'm liking it a lot more. The interface is much better organized and intuitive.
[03:56:18] <Valen> glad to hear it
[03:56:23] <Valen> the 3d preview is nice too
[03:56:35] <Valen> the biggest thing that I see missing is the parts library
[03:56:59] <Valen> also I noticed, by default it doesn't include all the parts libraries it comes with I dont think
[03:57:02] <davidf> That can be overcome with a little elbow grease.
[03:57:04] <morfic> i need to check the cam list on the emc website, see what is actually out there
[03:57:17] <Valen> there are also a bunch of libs available for downloaf
[03:57:19] <Valen> download
[03:57:50] <Valen> what I found is to use them you need to add them in eeschema for it to actually look at them just being in the directory with all the other libs isn't enough
[03:57:53] <davidf> I like downloaf better. I think we should all adopt that word immediately.
[03:58:10] <Valen> i downloafed a pizza last night
[03:58:16] <Valen> actually for my last 3 meals
[03:58:18] <davidf> HA
[03:58:19] <Valen> 4
[03:58:27] <davidf> HAHAHAHA then.
[03:58:48] <Valen> lol
[03:59:15] <Valen> all of the EE stuff and CAD stuff isn't "user friendly" they all have their own ways of doing things
[03:59:27] <Valen> I spose its the price to pay for having lots of detail
[03:59:53] <Valen> oh btw that java autorouter they mention is *way* better than the built in one
[04:00:06] <KimK> OK, thanks Valen I'll (eventually) look at kicad too, thanks. I just discovered that I can override the default of masked vias (to leave them unmasked) on an individual basis, and I think all-at-once too, but I didn't try that. Here's my fiddling: http://imagebin.ca/view/NWlSdro.html Sorry I haven't made more progress, I'm still stumbling around a bit (didn't RTFM).
[04:01:05] <davidf> well it's also probably because most of the programmers are not really strong in the user interface aspect & are mainly interested in gitt'n 'er done
[04:01:31] <Valen> thats a factor to be sure
[04:01:58] <Valen> i think what does it mostly is how "modal" they are, you pick this mode then you can do these things
[04:02:03] <davidf> Valen, You know what a camel is right?
[04:02:12] <Valen> whereas most GUI stuff is modeless
[04:02:18] <Valen> horse designed by committie
[04:02:29] <davidf> exactmundo. :)
[04:02:35] <Valen> you know what a good advertiser does though dont you
[04:02:48] <davidf> hmm...
[04:02:52] <davidf> I'll bite.
[04:03:24] <Valen> either convinces you that the camel is a horse or if that fails that what you really wanted was a camel all along
[04:03:47] <davidf> yes sir.
[04:03:52] <davidf> :)
[04:04:59] <davidf> I do remember that now. Been many years since that marketing aspect was explained to me. Too funny.
[04:05:05] <Valen> heh
[04:07:58] <davidf> But kicad's UI is way better than PCB's. That thing is so disorganized it is just a mess. But it's too bad because it's a pretty good program. And I don't mean to trash it really. Just could use a complete overhaul of the fron end.
[04:09:23] <davidf> I used to do UI's at my job. If I was better at klinux I'd consider having a go at it myself. But I'd be over my head immediately in linux environment.
[04:11:08] <davidf> Anyway kicad has a good feel to it. I need to get focused on this tut....
[04:11:28] <KimK> Say, I like kicad's 4-pronged approach: schematic-"something"-PCB-Gerberviewer. Is the "something" (CVpcb Components to Modules) some kind of library editor? (Sorry, I just opened it, didn't RTFM again).
[04:12:30] <Valen> there is a library editor
[04:12:40] <Valen> the other thing associates footprints with parts
[04:12:54] <Valen> so you just draw resistor, then pick what package you want it in
[04:13:04] <Valen> read through that mini tutorial
[04:13:17] <davidf> lol That's OK. just be sure you don't FTRM though. :)
[04:14:12] <Valen> ?
[04:14:17] <davidf> KIm here it is... http://kicad.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Mini_tutorial
[04:14:35] <Valen> FTRM?
[04:14:39] <Valen> oh
[04:14:45] <Valen> nvm
[04:14:48] <davidf> KimK, said sorry didn't RTFM...
[04:15:06] <KimK> Are either of you (or anyone here, jump in) going to the 2010 CNC workshop in what, Ann Arbor was it?
[04:15:18] <davidf> Sorry for the rather sick humor
[04:15:25] <Valen> i didn't get ftrm was made of the same words as the typical rtfm
[04:15:39] <Valen> fine the read manual is sick now? ;-P
[04:16:41] <davidf> Thanks for bailing me out. :)
[04:17:17] <davidf> Forget the riveting manual.
[04:18:05] <davidf> Ann Arbor MI when, & how much?
[04:18:52] <davidf> And is there going to be an emc fest in Galesburg IL again? Or did I miss it?
[04:24:59] <KimK> There's only 2006-2009 links in the wiki ( http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?EMC_Fest_2009 ) , but Google has info: http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=June+2010+CNC+Workshop&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=CA4DLZUX_S9mDCpj2Msnl6b0HAAAAqgQFT9DzDSg&fp=1328cd8acda262ff
[04:26:49] <KimK> The last Galesburg fest was 2008, later Roland retired. 2009 was in Wichita courtesy of Stuart Stevenson. 2010 will be at a community college.
[04:31:06] <davidf> I see. wher is the 2010 one?
[04:31:36] <davidf> The MI thing sounds cool. $150.00 isn't bad at all.
[04:36:39] <KimK> It seems that this one is the official(?) website. I'll put the link here for the log and see if I can add it to the wiki. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=36635
[04:43:36] <davidf> AWESOME. Now you've got me interested.
[04:43:57] <davidf> Where are you btw?
[04:44:01] <davidf> Im in MO.
[04:45:41] <davidf> KimK, I am really liking kicad's interfage and graphics more & more. If the rest of it is this good, I think I will be focusing on this one rather than gschem / PCB.
[04:45:59] <davidf> interface.
[04:51:19] <Valen> its fairly similar to eagle
[04:51:25] <Valen> just a few quirks
[04:51:41] <Valen> and the java auto router does a better job than eagles I think
[04:53:07] <Valen> autoplace doesn't seem to be worth the hassle in it
[04:53:07] <davidf> The placement, translate, rotate, zoom, etc are all so easy and intuitive, well thought out... I'm hooked.
[04:53:25] <Valen> yeah once you have the keyboard shortcuts its handy
[04:53:50] <davidf> I haven't even got that far yet. LOL.
[04:54:34] <davidf> So glad you suggested it.
[04:55:45] <KimK> davidf: Glad to hear you like kicad. Have you tried Eagle (free version)? Eagle (paid version) is the one I always imagined I'd end up using now that I'm using Linux almost all the time. There's a Windows version too, and you can have both for just a few percent more. There are three parts to Eagle (sold seperately): schem, PCB, and autorouter. Available in several costs, what, starter, professional, networked? (I forgot). But hey, if a free/open app like kicad
[04:55:45] <KimK> is good enough to do the job, I'm all for it!
[04:55:56] <KimK> Oops, long-winded again.
[04:56:28] <Valen> davidf try the keyboard stuff, makes life real easy
[04:56:39] <Valen> press m when over a part to move it, r to rotate
[04:56:49] <elmo40> kb shortcuts ROCK.
[04:56:52] <elmo40> every app needs them
[04:57:02] <elmo40> editable preferred
[04:57:20] <Valen> I have used eagle and i would rate the built in autorouter above kicad and its a teensy bit less quirky
[04:57:41] <Valen> but its not even worth the $140 for the entry level version when kicad can do anything
[04:58:08] <KimK> davidf: I'm from Omaha, but have been here in Minneapolis a lot lately.
[04:58:49] <Valen> sydney australia here
[04:59:51] <davidf> Ah, an OKIE and an AUSSIE.
[05:00:14] <davidf> Regards form across the pond
[05:00:30] <davidf> and across the ozarks
[05:01:11] <davidf> I've often thought I'd like to live in AU.
[05:01:34] <Valen> well its daytime here so thats a start ;-P
[05:02:01] <davidf> Quigley down under is my favorite movie of all time. Ever seen it?
[05:02:11] <KimK> Valen: Yes, greetings to Australia, and thanks again for pointing out kicad. How well does kicad handle the more difficult situations? Surface mount comps on back side? Buried vias? Unmasked vias. Areas/Polygons? Stuff like that.
[05:02:24] <Valen> that the one with the guy who can shoot pretty good?
[05:02:27] <davidf> Yeah, daytime tomorrow, 18 hours from now.
[05:02:43] <Valen> I havent tried flipping components but you can do it
[05:02:44] <Valen> mirror
[05:02:52] <Valen> dunno about that thing with the vias
[05:02:52] <davidf> Tom Seleck yes.
[05:03:06] <Valen> polys and such like are in it
[05:03:13] <Valen> was a while ago i saw the movie
[05:03:18] <davidf> I loved Crazy Cora.
[05:03:25] <Valen> i did like the bucket one
[05:04:05] <davidf> Crazy Cora: (CC) "Are we lost?
[05:04:16] <davidf> Q: "Yup."
[05:04:28] <KimK> How many layers? Or is it adjustable to handle "any" number? (Like, what, 32? 64? More than 16, anyway.)
[05:04:28] <davidf> cc: No really are we lost?
[05:04:35] <davidf> q: yup.
[05:04:52] <davidf> Seriously are we lost?
[05:04:57] <davidf> q: Nope.
[05:05:15] <davidf> cc: That's good cause for a minute there I was starting to worry...
[05:05:26] <Valen> lol yeah
[05:05:56] <davidf> Q: Don't know where we're gin' but there's no sense in bein' late.
[05:05:57] <Valen> guy is almost ausie ;->
[05:06:50] <davidf> Exactly. The flick paid homage to all concerned including the bad guys. Excellent characters.
[05:07:03] <Endeavour> The only output of EMC2 is via the parallel port, right?
[05:07:16] <Valen> what about crocodile dundee ?
[05:07:24] <Valen> Endeavour unless you have other hardware
[05:07:32] <davidf> All signals go through there as far as I know.
[05:07:37] <Endeavour> davidf: I read the link you showed me earlier on the RepRap site but don't like what that guy did.
[05:07:48] <davidf> OK...
[05:07:51] <Valen> we use mesa cards to do our stuff, no parallel port whatsoever
[05:08:16] <Endeavour> He essentially jury-rigged an extra interpreter using a microcontroller to do the extra work for heating elements, etc.
[05:08:33] <Endeavour> Heh, not complaining by any means, just trying to find a more elegant solution. ;)
[05:09:02] <Valen> Endeavour what are you trying to do?
[05:09:14] <davidf> Croc Dundee yes. I loved it when the aboriginee (Sp?) says in native tounge something unintelligible, and his friend says, Oh, he just asked if we can eat these guys. HOWL.
[05:09:28] <Endeavour> I'm working on a 3D printer.
[05:09:31] <KimK> Endeavour: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?EMC2_Supported_Hardware
[05:09:49] <Valen> lol only thing missing from that was that they both should have been drunk then stabbed em and taken their shoes
[05:09:55] <Valen> if they wanted realism ;->
[05:10:11] <davidf> sorry for the horrible spelling I hunt & peck...
[05:10:45] <Valen> the "indigenous population" has a rather higher than average rate of problems with alcohol and crime
[05:11:04] <Valen> which is unfortunate, the rest of em are generally decent people
[05:11:16] <Endeavour> EMC2 seems to have a fairly robust feature set, I'm just trying to find a way to integrate the extra functionality needed; specifically, I'd like to control several different heating elements through software without having to add a lot of extra electronics to control it.
[05:11:31] <Endeavour> KimK: Thanks. :)
[05:11:35] <Valen> Endeavour how many I/O's do you need?
[05:11:46] <davidf> Well they were portrayed as quite intelligent, peaceful folk in that movie (both of them)
[05:12:06] <Valen> yeah, one of em was ernie dingo he's a great bloke
[05:12:22] <Endeavour> To turn three heaters on and off I'd need three outputs, and then to measure the temperature for each of those, at least three inputs.
[05:12:27] <Valen> I like the line "we have ways of communicating that no white man would understand" then he pulls out a phone ;->
[05:12:42] <Valen> is your temperature measurement just an on/off style of thing?
[05:12:56] <davidf> I think you'll find emc is more than up to the task of controlling lots of signals in addition to the axes.
[05:13:08] <Endeavour> Was planning on using PID algorithms for the heat.
[05:13:16] <davidf> It is very versatile.
[05:13:25] <Valen> hah make the heat an axis ;->
[05:13:35] <Endeavour> davidf: Excellent. :) Just trying to work out the details.
[05:13:51] <davidf> Pid controllers are the heart & sole.
[05:13:57] <davidf> soul.
[05:14:02] <Endeavour> Any guidance at all is much appreciated.
[05:14:09] <davidf> Got shoes on the mind now. LOL
[05:14:13] <Valen> if you want more I/O without going to something like mesa or some other dedicated hardware then you could just add more parallel ports
[05:14:21] <Valen> they are ~$15 for a PCI card
[05:14:43] <davidf> Yes. you won't lack for outputs and inputs.
[05:14:43] <Valen> I don't know how you are going to go about reading in temperatures however
[05:15:00] <Endeavour> Will EMC2 output on a serial port?
[05:15:03] <davidf> A/d converter in hdw.
[05:15:04] <Valen> or put in a 5i22 and a 7i43 and be done with it
[05:15:13] <Valen> EMC2 does not play nice with serial
[05:15:33] <Valen> if you want to do that you will need to make an external thing (to emc) and then integrate it through HAL
[05:15:38] <Endeavour> I was thinking about adding a small micro for housekeeping tasks that could be controlled via software, and it could take care of the heating bits.
[05:16:15] <Endeavour> Valen: What's Mesa?
[05:16:29] <Valen> 3rd party equipment, integrates well with EMC2
[05:16:41] <Valen> lets you run servos rather than steppers
[05:16:48] <davidf> Emc can do the PID thing for a heater(s) just as if it was a servo motor
[05:16:51] <Valen> http://www.mesanet.com/
[05:17:30] <Endeavour> Ah
[05:17:54] <davidf> Is that right Valen?
[05:18:27] <Valen> mmm possibly kinda, it'd be somewhat advanced stuff to do to get EMC's internals to do it
[05:18:38] <Valen> i'm not that up on the back end of EMC
[05:18:48] <davidf> My Parker drives can be stepper drives or servo drives.
[05:19:11] <Endeavour> I'll read more into the EMC manual through tomorrow. I've never worked with a parallel interface before - none of my projects have been quite so timing critical as this.
[05:19:29] <davidf> I know emc can drive hardware servo controllers...
[05:20:16] <Endeavour> I was under the impression that if I was driving four steppers that I'd be out of I/Os to control anything else
[05:20:31] <Valen> Endeavour, stick another parallel port in
[05:20:38] <davidf> Also look at the integrator's manual. In addition to the regular emc manual. Bith links are on the linuxcnc.org home page I think.
[05:20:44] <Valen> davidf its the interface between EMC and the servo thats the issue
[05:21:24] <Endeavour> Is there a software limitation to IOs if more parallel ports are added?
[05:21:34] <Valen> not that I'm aware of
[05:23:03] <davidf> Certainly there is some limit to how many IO lines it can handle but my guess is the limiting factor would be the computer not the HAL
[05:23:35] <Valen> well through a mesa card it can run 100+ lines so I'd hope its not hal ;->
[05:23:51] <Valen> you can only have 9 axies though
[05:24:59] <davidf> But I am not even close to being knowledgeable to advise you really.. I'd look through the docs and then ask some pointed questions of cradek SWPadnos jepler et al. tomorrow or whenever.
[05:25:24] <davidf> Only 9 axes? what can you do with a dinky system like that?
[05:25:46] <Valen> add another machine and like it via HAL if you want more
[05:25:52] <Valen> (and your insane)
[05:26:05] <davidf> That's only enough for an octopus including the mouth...
[05:26:20] <Valen> actually an octopus would be >> 9
[05:26:44] <Valen> hell one tenticle would probably be a metric assload
[05:26:52] <davidf> Well they do have a gagillion muscles OK
[05:27:06] <Valen> each muscle pair would be an axis,
[05:27:16] <davidf> Just give me a little poetic license.
[05:27:18] <Valen> geez imagine trying to G code your arm/hand
[05:27:18] <davidf> :)
[05:27:53] <Valen> http://thinkexist.com/quotation/the-point-is-that-descriptive-writing-is-very/1022944.html
[05:28:34] <davidf> In College, I interfaced my arm & shoulder to a Radio Shack Mobile Armatron Robot for a EE demo fair.
[05:29:19] <davidf> I poured a glass of water with the robot, with only the emg from various muscles in my arm as input.
[05:29:30] <davidf> Didn't spill a drop. :)
[05:29:32] <Valen> funky
[05:29:57] <davidf> But I admit an octopus simulation would be a bit hairy. LOL.
[05:30:05] <Valen> I really hope they get nerve interfacing happening some day soon
[05:30:24] <Valen> I reckon I could build an arm as good as a human for 90% of things
[05:30:45] <Valen> hook it up to a blood powered fuel cell and your set
[05:31:56] <davidf> Prosthetics was what I had thought I might go into after EE & CoE but it didn't work out for one reason and another. Life goes on.
[05:33:08] <Endeavour> Back
[05:33:42] <davidf> God already did that Valen. :)
[05:33:53] <Endeavour> Thanks for your help guys, I really appreciate it.
[05:34:08] <davidf> Well, it's actually pizza powered in your case I guess.
[05:34:10] <Valen> yeah but when you break his one you don't get no warranty repairs
[05:34:34] <Valen> lol, missus was feeling off and wanted pizza for dinner, so I got pizza, she had one slice and declared she was full
[05:34:38] <Valen> so I had 2 pizzas
[05:34:45] <davidf> Oh, but Mr Obama is changing all that you see.
[05:34:53] <Valen> 2/3rds of one for dinner and 1/3rd for breakfast
[05:35:16] <Valen> a shiny hook does not count as a warranty replacement
[05:35:36] <davidf> I eat pizza for breaky all the time. Actually fairly good nutrition.
[05:36:05] <davidf> Endeavour, welcome. Hope it works out see you back here sometime..
[05:36:31] <davidf> Ha you are too funny.
[05:37:01] <Endeavour> Oh, you certainly will, need to get to understanding what can be done.
[05:37:15] <Valen> endevour, oh anything can be done
[05:37:25] <Valen> its just a question of if it can be done by you ;->
[05:37:31] <davidf> Anyway, we will have to pay for it for 4 years before we get any benefits, and what do want to bet by that time, it will be found unconstitutional anyway.
[05:37:52] <Valen> hah, minor factoid, Endevour was the name of the ship the bloke who found australia was sailing on
[05:37:58] <Valen> (well the one who got the credit anyway)
[05:38:05] <Endeavour> Yeah, James Cook.
[05:38:25] <Valen> australia has free health cover for all, we don't seem to have exploded as yet, I really don't see what the fuss is about
[05:38:26] <davidf> interesting. Also a NASA space shuttle.
[05:38:36] <Endeavour> Yep.
[05:38:43] <Valen> it actually has a chunk of wood from the ship on it
[05:38:50] <Endeavour> I got the name from the Space Shuttle.
[05:38:57] <Endeavour> The space shuttle got the name from James Cook's ship.
[05:39:56] <Endeavour> Hoping to go see the final launch of Endeavour, if I'm lucky.
[05:40:14] <Valen> I would love to see that
[05:40:19] <Endeavour> If not just one of the last launches. It's a somewhat historic moment.
[05:40:23] <Valen> my degree is in space science
[05:40:29] <davidf> Oh it's just that the law is REQUIRING us to get and pay for it. Many of us don't like being forced to do things that our constitution doesn't give the gov authority to do. It's called the rule of law. Quaint concept I know...
[05:40:32] <Endeavour> I've never seen a launch, and would like to before they're done.
[05:40:55] <Valen> davidf our government just does it through taxes
[05:41:16] <Valen> part of income tax goes to medicare
[05:41:23] <durka42> that's the same thing isn't it...
[05:41:50] <Valen> if you get private health cover before your old and dying (IE 30) the government pays for a decent % of it
[05:42:16] <Valen> durka yeah but its easier to hide that way
[05:42:44] <davidf> Well, it's not just a matter of how it is done, it is a mater of whether the gov has the authority under the law to do it, you see. That is really what the hubbub is all about.
[05:43:19] <Valen> I think ensuring that you are going to be looked after if your rich or not is a decent goal
[05:43:32] <davidf> Our constitution is pretty unique in this regard.
[05:44:24] <davidf> It only allows the fed govt to do things that are specifically laid out it the constitution.
[05:44:59] <Valen> when I invent fusion power and live as a king in my orbital space station my 10,000 or so subjects will have the benifits of me knowing for sure what is best for everybody
[05:45:19] <davidf> That is very different from a situation where it can do anything it wants unless it is expressly denied. That is the whole issue.
[05:45:46] <davidf> HA!!!!!! Valen u r just TOO funny.
[05:45:48] <Valen> I think the permissive model is probably more flexible in the face of changing times
[05:46:32] <davidf> more flexible now. Rigid later after all controls are removed. It's headed that way as always.
[05:47:03] <Valen> personally I think the way its all done is ass about
[05:47:08] <Valen> laws and such
[05:47:19] <Valen> they seem to define a mechanism rather than an intent
[05:47:44] <Valen> to my mind, laws should be along the lines of "nicking stuff is bad"
[05:47:56] <davidf> Personally I'd rather just be left alone even if I had to fend for myself entirely. I don't need a nanny.
[05:48:16] <Valen> not the crime of stealing a duck on shrove tuesday is considered a level 3 theft except if the thief is wearing a blue jumper
[05:48:33] <davidf> huh?
[05:48:44] <davidf> is this real?
[05:49:03] <durka42> actually it also depends on the phase of the moon
[05:49:12] <Valen> no i'm making it up
[05:49:37] <davidf> ok but nothing would surprise me.
[05:49:48] <Valen> but when you look at the thousands of pages of actual "law" most of which is centered on the basic tennet of "dont be an asshole to other people" something is wrong
[05:50:17] <davidf> yup.
[05:50:57] <Valen> hence my constitution, thats the first law
[05:51:10] <davidf> That was the philosophy our founders had too.
[05:51:19] <Valen> then you define what constitutes being an asshole, a wanker and a dirt bag ;->
[05:51:44] <Valen> the problem is rather than codify their philosiphy they codified actions
[05:51:59] <Valen> the government must blah and must not blah
[05:52:51] <davidf> That's why our const. was set up to only allow the fed govt to do what was expressly allowed in writing, not the other way round, where they could do anything that was not forbidden. But the attitude is changing and that tennent is being constantly eroded.
[05:52:57] <KimK> Endeavour: Are your heaters large? (As in, the temperature can't change very fast?) If so, maybe your job is made easier, since "almost-real-time" might be good enough.
[05:53:22] <Endeavour> KimK: Yeah. The heaters don't need real time control at all.
[05:53:26] <Valen> davidf: thing is, providing medical care for everybody regardless of income is a pretty good idea to me ;->
[05:53:58] <davidf> Good. Will you pay for mine then please?
[05:54:14] <KimK> Endeavour: What did you need the real-time for again?
[05:54:21] <Endeavour> Axis movement.
[05:54:35] <davidf> At least I am asking, and not demmanding that you do. See my point?
[05:54:44] <Valen> davidf, thats the point of government
[05:54:51] <Valen> to even things out
[05:55:21] <KimK> Endeavour: Oh, OK, how many axes? Or is this a special deal (a dinosaur that moves or whatever)?
[05:55:34] <Valen> I'm happy to pay a little bit for yours, if you pay a little bit for mine too
[05:55:37] <davidf> Exactly 180 degrees diametrically opposed IMO. That is the job of friends and fammily, and one's self. period.
[05:56:01] <Endeavour> KimK: Just 3D printing. I have three axes, and an extruder than runs off a stepper motor.
[05:56:15] <davidf> That is fine. Just leave the gov out of the equation and we agree.
[05:56:16] <Valen> so basically if your from a poor family and you get sick you should suffer and die, but if your from a rich family you should get looked after?
[05:57:36] <KimK> Endeavour: OK then. I think you can have as many "extra" (non-axis-related) PIDs as you can stand (or pay for?)
[05:58:08] <davidf> NO, of course not. But it is not the province of OUR fed gov to handle that. That is perfectly OK for local govt and / or communities, social networks, etc. but out constitution simply does not allow the federal got to do that kind of thing, imo.
[05:58:25] <Endeavour> KimK: Howso?
[05:58:56] <davidf> It is a matter of the rule of law.
[05:59:01] <Valen> davidf: so change the law
[05:59:11] <Valen> they are called ammendments in your constitution I think
[05:59:33] <davidf> No thank you. I like the way it is. Remember the camel?
[05:59:45] <davidf> That's a perfect example.
[05:59:56] <Valen> so you want 52 half assed health care schemes?
[06:00:27] <Valen> because some blokes a few hundred years ago didn't think medical care for all was an important thing (because back then medical care wasn't worth squat)
[06:00:46] <KimK> You define them in hal, and connect them to whatever I/O hardware you have. Though it would help if the hardware was "servo-like" in some way, maybe 0-10V in, 0-10V out? Or maybe PWM in/out? Or some combination? Or some other analog-like system I haven't mentioned.
[06:00:52] <Valen> and if you come from a poor state you suffer and die, and if your in california everybody gets a private room
[06:00:55] <davidf> No, but I certainly don't want 1 completely zero-assed one either.
[06:01:38] <davidf> That just ain't so Valen, Ca is nearly backrupt.
[06:01:45] <Valen> you like the idea you don't mind the implementation (ie a federal health care system rather than a local one) its just the constitutional issue thats bugging you
[06:01:56] <KimK> davidf and Valen: I'm reminded of a story Neal Boortz tells on his radio show...
[06:02:01] <Endeavour> Can you read analog voltages over parallel, KimK ?
[06:02:03] <Valen> anyway bbl gotta make a phone call
[06:02:11] <davidf> yes, that's pretty much it.
[06:02:13] <KimK> Bye Valen, thanks
[06:02:28] <davidf> Bye KimK thanks
[06:02:35] <Endeavour> G'night Valen.
[06:02:58] <davidf> Oh read wrong nite Valen
[06:03:15] <davidf> kimv do tell...
[06:03:24] <davidf> Neal is a scream.
[06:04:17] <KimK> Endeavour: Well, yes, I suppose it could be done, but probably not easily. You should probably look at easier to use hardware. Unless you really want a *project*
[06:04:20] <davidf> Endeavour, yes but only as a digital word.
[06:04:53] <davidf> || port can only see digital bits not analog values
[06:05:14] <Endeavour> Ah.
[06:05:55] <KimK> You might be able to use SWP's Modbus (serial) deal, originally made for VFD control I believe, but you need input too, and I don't know if SWP made it work in both directions.
[06:05:55] <Endeavour> With some things you can just hook up an analog voltage and use an A/D on board to convert it.
[06:06:32] <davidf> It is not a great feat to hook up an analog to digital converter
[06:07:00] <KimK> Yes, and the good thing is you're not running a real-time servo axis (for the heaters) so non-real-time is OK.
[06:07:36] <KimK> You could use a general-purpose driver/hardware.
[06:08:41] <davidf> There are dirt chep 10 bit all in one chips out there that can do that
[06:09:50] <davidf> or with everything you're doing maybe a PIC but I don't know a thing about those though. SWPadnos does
[06:10:27] <KimK> For a contrary example, John has a 4-input quadrature encoder card, and there's a Linux driver available for it. But John can't use it with EMC (for axis/spindle encoders, etc.) because the driver is not real-time RTAI type. So the info is always late by an unknown and probably variable amount.
[06:10:56] <davidf> John?
[06:11:02] <KimK> But for a (large) heater, that would be OK.
[06:11:37] <KimK> Ackland, aka Bridgeport IIa John
[06:12:11] <Valen> I don't really see the benifit of getting EMC to control it
[06:12:46] <davidf> What is this heater for again?
[06:13:11] <Valen> gets cold in the shed
[06:13:17] <KimK> Endeavour: Valen might be right, you might be able to find three small heater controllers on eBay.
[06:13:20] <Endeavour> davidf: No, A/Ds are easy to hook up, but multi-bit outputs kind of stink, given how few pins parallel ports have got.
[06:13:36] <KimK> It was three heaters, right?
[06:13:42] <Endeavour> Yes
[06:13:46] <KimK> OK
[06:15:42] <KimK> And now the Neal Boortz story (because I've to quit). Neal was talking about a conversation he had with a friend of his who believes as Valen does.
[06:17:02] <KimK> NB: If we were walking through the park, and we came across a homeless guy, would it be OK if I gave him $10?
[06:17:19] <KimK> Friend: Sure, that would be OK.
[06:17:38] <KimK> NB: Would it be OK if you gave him $10?
[06:18:01] <KimK> Friend: Well, sure, I guess that would be OK too.
[06:18:16] <davidf> ok...
[06:18:42] <KimK> NB: Would it be OK if I pulled a gun on you and said "Give that homeless guy $10!"
[06:18:55] <KimK> Freind: (no response)
[06:19:01] <davidf> now youre talkin neall
[06:19:05] <davidf> neal
[06:19:07] <Valen> I forget the name of it but that is one of those logical falicies things
[06:19:15] <davidf> exactly.
[06:19:44] <davidf> That says it all as far as I'm concerned/
[06:19:50] <Valen> you make an argument not by refuting the other persons argument instead by building a straw man out of the other persons argument then blowing it down
[06:20:25] <davidf> no, I disagree.
[06:20:49] <Valen> actually if you want to take the its every man for him self thing to its end then yeah, he should pull the gun and take what he can get
[06:21:08] <KimK> But it is not a straw man argument because the government is reaching into your pocket and taking money out of your pocket and putting it in someone else's pocket.
[06:21:11] <davidf> Valen, remember you said "I pay a little for your care, you pay a little for mine"?
[06:21:35] <KimK> Involuntarily, that is.
[06:21:42] <davidf> KimK, ditto.
[06:22:00] <davidf> But Valen rember I agreed that was OK?
[06:22:10] <Valen> KimK and if you were born into a poor family, and all of a sudden needed a $200,000 medical procedure you would be happy to die?
[06:22:32] <Valen> its called empathy
[06:22:42] <davidf> Valen, remember?
[06:23:10] <Valen> davidf: your argument against it seems to mainly be with its implementation at a federal level
[06:23:31] <Valen> thats a question of semantics as far as I'm concerned
[06:23:35] <davidf> but I did agree right?
[06:23:44] <Valen> i dunno I was afk at the time
[06:23:47] <Valen> if you say so
[06:23:53] <davidf> OK yes I did.
[06:24:09] <davidf> But that is not how it works exactly
[06:24:25] <Valen> I'm saying KimK's "pull a gun" is the kind of crap one would expect a radio talk show personality to come up with
[06:24:34] <KimK> No, hopefully there would be charities (like the Shriners and their burn center, for example) and churches, and foundations that can help (voluntarily).
[06:24:37] <davidf> Suppose I decide I don't want to work. I could but I just don't want to.
[06:25:07] <Valen> davidf then eventually you will wind up on the street here
[06:25:17] <davidf> Not here.
[06:25:32] <Valen> you will get fed and medical care, and the homeless shelters will probably take you in
[06:25:37] <davidf> Here's the deal. I decide I don't want to work.
[06:25:37] <Valen> but its not "plesant"
[06:26:19] <davidf> I'm broke. The way this law is written I MUST have my healthcare provided. BY YOU.
[06:26:53] <Valen> yeah, thats costing me about .6% of my wages at the moment I think
[06:27:04] <Valen> you keep forgetting that this system is in place in my country
[06:27:07] <Valen> we arent all broke
[06:27:11] <KimK> Well, gentlemen, this is an enjoyable debate, but I must go (and I suspect if any moderators were here that we would be flagged as off-topic). But I hope to see both of you in Ann Arbor where we might continue this conversation over a good meal.
[06:27:16] <davidf> ButbI don't pay in a cent for you. So now you have to provide my care. period. You have no choice.
[06:27:31] <Valen> its not actually that expensive, and we all benifit from it
[06:27:34] <davidf> That is what has been set up. Like that?
[06:28:00] <Valen> yeah, if you walk into a hospital or a (shrinking %) of GP's you will be taken care of
[06:28:09] <Valen> need a new heart valve, it'll happen
[06:28:11] <davidf> KimK, had it exactly right. Neal's analogy is no straw man thing it is exactly the waty it is.
[06:28:26] <Valen> no its not, its emotive bs
[06:28:53] <davidf> No, it is the way the law reads.
[06:29:11] <Valen> the law says that a homeless guy will pull a gun on you
[06:29:34] <Valen> or does the law read "a relativley minor tax increase will lead to greatly improved healthcare for those most in need"
[06:30:12] <davidf> Everyone has to pay into the system IF they have a sufficient level of income. If not, for whatever reason, including laziness, they get FREE healthcare.
[06:30:45] <Valen> it works in most of the rest of the world
[06:30:57] <Valen> well the places that call themselves developed anyway
[06:31:05] <Valen> most people dont want to live in a homeless shelter
[06:31:12] <davidf> And, IRS WILL collect your healthcare taxation to pay for that guy
[06:31:41] <Valen> I think you have the cost/benifit ratio wrong
[06:32:08] <Valen> you see one asshole being a leech making the system invalid for thousands of people who are pretty hard up
[06:32:32] <Valen> phone 1 sec
[06:32:40] <davidf> Not talking homeless. Decent house, food on the table, just decides not to work as hard as you, & let you pick up he slack.
[06:33:14] <KimK> Oops, I forgot to mention I'm adding a little blurb to the wiki about EMC Fest 2010, it should be up in a few minutes. Nothing fancy, but it was fun last year to watch the list of names and what they were doing/bringing.
[06:35:56] <davidf> cool.
[06:39:43] <KimK> OK, here you go. Feel free to add to it: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?EMC_Fest_2010
[06:41:31] <Valen> davidf: and if i tell you that your concern isn't warranted because I live in a country where the system is in place and it is all working fine and pretty much as intended it wont sway you at all
[06:41:39] <davidf> KimK, That is very cool. You are quite the busy bee. :)
[06:41:49] <Valen> becuse a few people might be assholes
[06:42:00] <davidf> :)
[06:42:29] <davidf> Valen, First of all, let me say I think youbare a very good person.
[06:42:44] <davidf> you are not youbare lol
[06:43:25] <davidf> I absolutely care deeply about my fellow man.
[06:43:57] <davidf> I believe it is working too.
[06:44:01] <Valen> but not enough to put your hand in your pocket
[06:44:12] <davidf> Not so.
[06:44:29] <davidf> I put my hand in my pocket for folks
[06:44:38] <davidf> But not at gunpoint.
[06:44:57] <Valen> the at gunpoint thing is an emotional argument
[06:45:02] <Valen> not a factual one
[06:45:21] <Valen> you might as well say that any tax at all is "at gunpoint"
[06:45:30] <davidf> Valen, Who sad this? (I paraphrase)
[06:45:45] <Valen> or do you only believe in paying taxes that you think you should?
[06:46:07] <davidf> To each, according to his need, from each, according to his ability.
[06:46:08] <davidf> ??
[06:46:22] <Valen> yeah something like that
[06:46:30] <fragalot> jesus?
[06:46:31] <fragalot> * fragalot runs
[06:46:41] <Valen> i dunno who said it but at a first pass it sounds fair enoguh
[06:46:55] <davidf> & do you agree with it?
[06:47:09] <Valen> fragalot you better run boy, not lettin religion get in the way of a discussion
[06:47:11] <Valen> ;-P
[06:47:14] <fragalot> Valen: :3
[06:47:16] <davidf> Carl Marxx
[06:47:31] <Valen> are you trying to trot out the hitler defence?
[06:47:38] <fragalot> * fragalot is waiting for his sable 2015 order to be confirmed :O
[06:47:46] <davidf> Nope.
[06:48:00] <davidf> Those two were far apart.
[06:48:51] <Valen> perhaps you understimate people is your problem
[06:49:08] <Valen> lets try a thaught experiment
[06:49:24] <davidf> oh God I have to think? :)
[06:49:44] <Valen> assuming that local systems will be inefficent and a federal one would provide more equitable coverage
[06:49:55] <davidf> HA.
[06:50:03] <Valen> IE everybody in your country is entitled to the same level of care
[06:50:05] <davidf> But go ahead.
[06:50:30] <Valen> I know what your saying, i have serious issues with most governmental orginisation systems
[06:50:37] <Valen> they suck donkey balls generally
[06:50:40] <Valen> but anyway
[06:51:12] <fragalot> come to belgium, we don't have one (again_
[06:51:15] <davidf> HAHA as I said you're too funny. I could listen to ya all nite.
[06:51:17] <Valen> in addition, local ones aren't going to happen because on a local level polititions are weak ass bastards who wouldn't know a spine if they were hit over the head with it
[06:51:40] <Valen> (thats my argument against local area health coverage btw)
[06:52:12] <Valen> that and no state would implement it because everybody would just go there for treatment then piss off back home
[06:52:13] <davidf> OK I agree with that
[06:52:16] <Valen> but that aside
[06:52:28] <Valen> (see I can make an emotional argument too ;->)
[06:52:51] <davidf> well no state care would likely require residency. but cont.
[06:53:06] <fragalot> there's a simple soltion. everyone should self-diagnose using google and order their meds from nigerean online pharmacies?
[06:53:46] <Valen> would you be happy for a small tax increase, (on the order of a few %) to ensure that no matter what happens to you in the future would be covered to at least a basic level of care.
[06:53:49] <davidf> YES! THAT"S IT fragalot You are are a GENIUS!
[06:54:01] <Valen> you wont get the breast implants but a new heart valve is on the table
[06:54:22] <Valen> would you be happy for a small tax increase, (on the order of a few %) to ensure that no matter what happens to you in the future *you* would be covered to at least a basic level of care.
[06:54:22] <fragalot> Valen: that's the funny bit
[06:54:41] <fragalot> in america, health care costs are about 4x what they are here with the government taking care of it
[06:54:46] <davidf> LOL Could I get those for my girlfriend though?
[06:55:31] <Valen> so would you be happy with that davidf?
[06:55:39] <davidf> Well I might have a look at those statistics if I get a chance.
[06:56:06] <Valen> fragalot probably find 2x that is going to insurance and lawers
[06:56:22] <davidf> I would be happy with any system that helps as long as it is constitutional.
[06:56:39] <Valen> constitutional or not is a symantic issue
[06:56:52] <davidf> NO. NO. NO.
[06:57:01] <davidf> It is not.
[06:57:04] <Valen> if somebody proved it was constitutional to force everybody to wear really shiny pants would you wear the shiny pants?
[06:57:16] <Valen> its outside the bounds of the thaught experiment
[06:57:49] <davidf> I would move.
[06:58:05] <fragalot> thanks to belgian constitutional law. we are now rendered without a government, and unable to vote for a new one
[06:58:14] <fragalot> how's that for one constitutional f*ckup
[06:58:18] <Valen> well yeah shiny pants are slippery, you fall off stuff all the time
[06:58:42] <fragalot> also -> work, bai
[06:58:57] <Valen> fragalot: thats what i'm saying constitutions are bits of paper, when you start living and dying based on nothing more than paperwork theres something wrong
[06:59:08] <Valen> but again its irrelivent to the question at hand
[06:59:10] <davidf> But you can't necessarily judge ours by yours now can you?
[06:59:32] <Valen> lol yours is american and hence better than everybody elses huh? ;->
[07:00:13] <davidf> That's the heart of the matter. It is not just a bit of paper. If it becomes that all is lost.
[07:00:38] <fragalot> before i go (just found my shoes), the constitution allows you to have guns, but not to get the healthcare needed if you'd get shot.
[07:00:42] <fragalot> :3
[07:01:01] <davidf> Oh please.
[07:01:20] <Valen> it is a bit of paper, written a few hundred years ago, it has some nice ideas in it but times change and people change, if you don't change you are just going to get left behind
[07:01:39] <Valen> so you still havent answered my question davidf
[07:01:47] <davidf> which?
[07:01:55] <Valen> would you be happy for a small tax increase, (on the order of a few %) to ensure that no matter what happens to you in the future *you* would be covered to at least a basic level of care.
[07:02:32] <davidf> I did answer that.
[07:02:39] <davidf> Not at gunpoint.
[07:02:53] <Valen> its a tax increase, you either vote for it or not
[07:03:15] <Valen> either it happens for everybody or nobody
[07:03:37] <davidf> I would vote against it not because of the money but because of the principle.
[07:04:01] <Valen> the principle that you dont want to have a saftey net
[07:04:36] <davidf> The principle that our republic was founded upon.
[07:04:39] <Valen> so if I choose that i dont want a standing army i shouldn't have to pay the portion of taxes that go towards the military you would agree with that?
[07:05:22] <davidf> If the constitution were to change (that is always an option) then that might be a different story.
[07:05:46] <davidf> No I did not say anything of the kind.
[07:05:49] <Valen> so if there were an amendment that said freedom, liberty and health for all men you would become a cheering supporter
[07:06:08] <davidf> Perhaps.
[07:07:16] <davidf> But the missing phrase is "pursuit of happiness"
[07:07:27] <Valen> In australia, our concept of australian is much more deeply seeted than a bit of paper I spose
[07:08:01] <davidf> That implies INDIVIDUAL effort. Self motivation. Responsibility.
[07:08:20] <davidf> For one's self. Like a grownup.
[07:08:42] <Valen> davidf so screw anybody over to make yourself happy gotcha
[07:08:54] <davidf> Nope wrong.
[07:09:17] <Valen> so leave people to die unless you feel charitable at that moment
[07:09:43] <davidf> Exactly the opposite. Don't screw everyone else over by forcing them to make me happy.
[07:09:54] <Valen> I guess I'd fit in better with your marines whats their motto or something "no man left behind"?
[07:10:49] <davidf> Think that's it. But now youre doing that apples and oranges emotional thing.
[07:11:32] <Valen> because you cant seem to make your mind up if you are happy to be left to die or if you want to follow the constitution
[07:11:58] <Valen> if you had it your way there would be no FEMA
[07:14:13] <davidf> Valen, lets let go of this conversation. We will not agree at least not tonight. It is 2:15 AM here. :)
[07:14:31] <Valen> crap sorry man its 5:15 here
[07:14:59] <davidf> PM. :)
[07:15:05] <Valen> yah
[07:17:04] <davidf> I like you a lot Valen don't get the wrong idea. And it is interesting seeing your point of view. I do not discount your goodness and you have many valid points, and I am sure we have much more areas of agreement than you may realize.
[07:17:40] <Valen> I think our only real bone of contention is the constitution rules all
[07:17:56] <Valen> although you said you were happy for it to change
[07:18:12] <davidf> I do wish for adequate healthcare for everyone. Who in their right mind would not?
[07:18:42] <Valen> that's all I'm sayin
[07:18:46] <davidf> But I didn't say "HAPPY" for it to change. There are other way I think.
[07:18:47] <Valen> the rest is details
[07:19:51] <davidf> No, not just details to me. Our constitution is precious.
[07:20:12] <Valen> if it can change then it can keep up
[07:20:19] <davidf> I know that seems maybe even silly to you. It's not to me.
[07:21:07] <Valen> maintaining that you must live by an unchanging wad of paper is silly, if it can change with your society to reflect its views or at least an ideolised version thereof then thats fine
[07:21:40] <Valen> like the ultra religious people who do whatever the bible says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff
[07:22:46] <davidf> Geez Valen don't lump me in that group please.
[07:23:17] <Valen> if you can accept change to the constitution then you arent one of them
[07:23:32] <Valen> although that new pope whacking on 10 new deadly sins is just funny
[07:24:34] <davidf> Look, if there are no rules whatsoever then what will protect you from the next group of folks who want to totally oppress you. And maybe even do away with all healthcare. Ever think of that?
[07:24:53] <Valen> I didnt say no rules
[07:25:15] <Valen> I said if you were open to change, presumably the way its been changed in the past
[07:25:26] <davidf> You said just a scrap of paper. Just a wad. That is no rules.
[07:25:47] <Valen> i said slavish devotion to a dead bit of paper is silly
[07:25:59] <Valen> devotion to something that is alive (ie able to change) is not
[07:26:34] <Valen> (the constitution is "alive" and relevant if it is able through some means to change)
[07:26:42] <Valen> healthcare is a side issue to that
[07:26:46] <davidf> It is a set of laws. They can be changed. But according to the LAW. Not just arbitrarily at any time.
[07:26:52] <Valen> thats fine
[07:27:44] <Valen> never took issue with that
[07:27:45] <davidf> This healthcare bill circumvents the constitution according to better minds than mine.
[07:27:57] <Valen> says some of them and doesn't says others
[07:28:52] <Valen> I say the end result is a worthy one, I'm not going to get into a debate over the interpretation of the word "the"
[07:29:26] <davidf> Actually, the speaker of the house was asked, (Paraphrase) Where is your constitutional authority for this law?
[07:29:36] <davidf> Her only response:
[07:29:49] <davidf> "Are you serious?"
[07:29:59] <davidf> That is rediculous.
[07:30:48] <davidf> That's what I'm talking about.
[07:32:19] <Valen> it does sound like a fairly silly question
[07:32:41] <Valen> werent you going to bed like half an hour ago?
[07:33:04] <davidf> Oh for Pet's sake Valen There is no point I guess..
[07:33:32] <Valen> if they asked that question of any other "law" being put up would they get a different response?
[07:33:33] <davidf> We are from two different planets I think. :)
[07:34:08] <davidf> That's OK. I agree to disagree.
[07:35:36] <davidf> Depends on who you ask I guess. Our congressmen & women Swear to uphold and defen the constitution. Are you serious? Flies in the face of that IMO/
[07:36:02] <Valen> it sounds to me like she thaught the question so general as to be stupid
[07:36:16] <Valen> in that setting
[07:36:52] <davidf> No I think she thought that the entire question of whether it was constitutional or not was irrelevant.
[07:37:22] <Valen> at that time and place it might have been
[07:37:51] <Valen> whats your speaker do anyway? here he is basically the referee of a football match
[07:38:05] <davidf> Another congressman came out and expressly said, in this case, I'm really not worried about the constitution..."
[07:38:17] <davidf> She.
[07:38:49] <davidf> No, more like the manager owner and quarterback in one.
[07:39:17] <Valen> so she is associated with a party then
[07:39:28] <davidf> Democrat
[07:39:41] <Valen> ours is theoretically impartial
[07:40:02] <Valen> although he is sposed to be the queens representative here and sign all the laws
[07:40:07] <davidf> American congress is different from parimentary systems.
[07:40:07] <Valen> actually its a chick now
[07:41:02] <davidf> Anyway, I gotta get to sleep it is way past by bedtime. :)
[07:41:04] <Valen> to bed with ya
[07:41:58] <davidf> You take care. I hope you never need your healthcare and can always afford everyone else's LOL.
[07:42:12] <Valen> I use mine all the time
[07:42:26] <davidf> G'nite mate
[07:42:30] <Valen> GP visits are covered ;->
[07:42:31] <Valen> cya
[07:42:40] <davidf> :)
[11:14:03] <jlmjvm> alex_joni:will stepgen in position mode ever be able to home to index?
[11:24:16] <alex_joni> I don't see why not
[11:24:27] <alex_joni> how do you count the index pulse?
[11:26:44] <jlmjvm> encoder inputs are connected to a breakout board
[11:27:06] <jlmjvm> when i use index enable,i get ferror
[11:28:58] <jlmjvm> http://pastebin.com/MasLFdCs
[11:33:08] <salvarane> hello
[13:38:46] <_Poincare> _Poincare is now known as Poincare
[15:22:16] <Jymmm> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/tls/1763605534.html
[15:24:17] <elmo40> why do all the good deals occur around your neck of the woods? :/
[15:25:04] <Jymmm> Don't know if it's as much that, or more so that I scan CL frequently.
[15:31:46] <piasdom> hi
[15:33:25] <piasdom> well i got this to work; http://pastebin.com/y6skZP0E but don't understand why i was told to use o100 call []
[15:33:59] <piasdom> and does the underscore make it a global varitable?
[15:35:26] <elmo40> Jymmm: there is nothing like that around here
[15:35:44] <Jymmm> ah
[15:36:23] <elmo40> toronto
[15:36:51] <Jymmm> Ah, it's because you're a Canook! LOL
[15:37:10] <elmo40> *Canuck
[15:37:22] <Jymmm> fair enough =)
[15:37:27] <JT-Work> defining the variable outside of a subroutine makes it global AFAIK
[15:37:29] <elmo40> ;)
[15:37:42] <Jymmm> Ah, it's because you're a Canuck! LOL
[15:37:48] <Jymmm> (better?)
[15:38:40] <elmo40> meh. good enough
[15:38:40] <elmo40> lol
[15:39:21] <piasdom> JT-Work: but i had f#<feed> = 4 and it didn't work til i used the _
[15:39:30] <Jymmm> elmo40: Come on now... You don't get FREE RedBull vending machines??? http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/zip/1763791849.html
[15:40:02] <micges> JT-Work: variables are always local until they have _ before name
[15:40:22] <JT-Work> I need to add that to the manual then
[15:40:43] <JT-Work> so without the _ the variable can't be used in a subroutine?
[15:40:50] <piasdom> THANKS...THAT'S what i need to know :)
[15:40:56] <JT-Work> if defined outside of the subroutine
[15:41:26] <micges> JT-Work: give me few minutes for test
[15:41:33] <Jymmm> Global vars in what, gcode?
[15:41:34] <JT-Work> ok
[15:42:06] <piasdom> JT-Work: it shows <_something>= 5 in the doc, but i thought that it was makeup. it could have been any word...didn't know about the _
[15:42:54] <JT-Work> I see it in the docs but it is not clear that the underscore makes it global
[15:42:58] <piasdom> Jymmm: yes
[15:43:19] <piasdom> JT-Work: thanks
[15:43:25] <Jymmm> piasdom: ah, is that specific to emc, or ???
[15:43:56] <piasdom> Jymmm: not sure about tha
[15:44:01] <piasdom> *that
[15:44:13] <Jymmm> k
[15:44:39] <micges> Jymmm: emc specific
[15:44:45] <piasdom> Jymmm: but they do have local and global varitables in C,C+ and C++ i think
[15:45:03] <piasdom> i know C++ does
[15:45:36] <Jymmm> Um, since when does an underscore mean global var in c++ ?
[15:46:10] <piasdom> Jymmm: not global /w _ they do have global and local
[15:46:21] <piasdom> is all i meant
[15:46:52] <Jymmm> Oh, yeah... All langs have local and global that I'm aware of =)
[15:47:18] <Jymmm> Unless it's sadistic like BF
[15:48:08] <atmega> globals pretty much suck in real languages
[15:48:46] <Jymmm> Not if they are used properly
[15:49:06] <Jymmm> (which is rarely the case)
[15:49:13] <atmega> I would agree with that, if they were ever used properly.
[15:49:35] <Jymmm> But many dev's are just dumbasses, so...
[15:49:52] <atmega> I think it's mainly due to laziness or not enough up-front design
[15:50:07] <Jymmm> atmega: See my comment above =(
[15:50:24] <atmega> at least, that's what I always thing when I use them.
[15:52:04] <Jymmm> I don't know if I use globals as much as constants (which are global as well)
[15:52:33] <atmega> that's fine, they don't change value
[15:55:18] <piasdom> now i need to figure out dis ting []
[15:57:23] <piasdom> thanks
[16:00:58] <JT-Work> []?
[16:01:57] <atmega> array subscripts I suppose
[16:02:04] <JT-Work> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html//gcode_main.html#r3_1
[16:02:09] <atmega> or gcode vars?
[16:06:07] <Jymmm> I've seen "code" where they declared everything as constants
[16:07:47] <Jymmm> It would be at that point that I would hit ALT+F4, turn around and say, this will have to be written from scratch.
[16:09:34] <salvarane> hello
[17:23:44] <Dave911> andypugh: :-)
[17:24:07] <andypugh> Ahoy!
[17:24:19] <Dave911> andy didn't you have some issues a while back on calling files for gcode subs...
[17:24:44] <andypugh> I think I got it working
[17:25:32] <andypugh> There was some experimentation, and this wiki page occurred: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?SubProgramFiles
[17:27:34] <Dave911> Thanks ... what is the label number ...o<filename> call labelnumber
[17:28:01] <Dave911> Was that the issue ... I don't see any label number in the emc2 docs
[17:28:23] <Dave911> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html//gcode_main.html#cha:O-Codes line 3.7
[17:30:01] <andypugh> I think it is unnecessary
[17:31:27] <Dave911> ok .... I need to port about 80 existing gcode programs from an AB 9 cnc to EMC2 and they all have subs in outlying files, so I am going to get really good at using these ... once I figure out how they work!
[17:31:57] <Dave911> I'll study that page further ..
[17:33:39] <Dave911> Do you remember the named variable discussion a long time ago .. before Christmas?
[17:33:53] <Dave911> It went on for many days ..
[17:35:32] <Dave911> Are named vars that start with an underline "_" global ?
[17:37:27] <andypugh> Either that or local.
[17:37:43] <andypugh> ;-)
[17:38:10] <Dave911> ok ..ok .. that was my guess also ;-)
[17:39:29] <Dave911> That was mentioned just a minute ago .... I'm not sure if that is the way it ended up or not .. I found reference to that back in the IRC list archives in 2007 but that doesn't mean it is still the same .... guess I will have to find out ..
[17:41:07] <JT-Work> Dave911: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html//gcode_main.html#r3_7
[17:45:28] <Dave911> JT I tried that and either screwed up something or that is not correct ... the link that andy sent me about differs somewhat ... at least that label name is there .. I don't follow what the label name is suppose to represent
[17:46:33] <Dave911> Before doing anything else ... let me look at my gcode again ... I'll let you know if I find any descrepancies
[17:47:07] <Dave911> JT .. are _vars global ??
[17:50:53] <dgarr> Dave911: a gui for testing subroutines:http://www.panix.com/~dgarrett/ngcgui/readme
[17:51:00] <dgarr> screenshot:http://www.panix.com/~dgarrett/ngcgui/ngcgui.png
[17:56:10] <Dave911> Thanks Dewey ... I'll try that out today ...
[17:56:24] <Dave911> Have you been writing tcl code for a long time?
[17:58:41] <Dave911> I'm wondering what the learning curve is like for TK/TCL I have a 3" thick book here and I'm not sure if I should crack it open or not ...
[17:59:26] <dgarr> about 20 years but i just kind of hack it
[17:59:34] <JT-Work> Dave911: calling files
[18:00:19] <JT-Work> Dave911>ok .... I need to port about 80 existing gcode programs from an AB 9 cnc to EMC2 and they all have subs in outlying files, so I am going to get really good at using these ... once I figure out how they work!
[18:00:33] <Dave911> 20 years ... way ahead of me ....I'd like to do more programming but I am wondering if I can "ignore" TK/TCL and get by with Python and pyGTK etc
[18:00:56] <Dave911> JT-Work .. yep
[18:02:11] <Dave911> lucky me eh? (I'm close to canada ;-) )
[18:06:46] <atmega> I had thought tcl/tk had died out many years ago
[18:07:35] <atmega> axis is pretty damned impressive
[18:08:14] <awallin> or pyQT, or wxPython ?
[18:14:05] <Dave911> I've looked at QT stuff and it is pretty impressive.. I guess a lot of people don't like the way the graphics look for wxPython on linux .. I haven't tried it.. but I keep hearing that.
[18:14:07] <Dave911> A lot of people are still writing TK/TCL code though... I just don't know if I want to spend the time learning it . Text programmed graphical front ends are tons of work IMO. Glade is pretty cool, but it is having some issues apparently in the later versions
[18:45:41] <tom3p> 2 days ago i reported probs with 2.4.0~pre and it was suggested to update to 'tip of 2.4 branch'.
[18:45:41] <tom3p> linuxcnc.org suggests using the prebuilt 'deb http://emc2-buildbot.colorado.edu/~buildmaster hardy v2.4_branch-rtShould i rename the ~/emc2-dev dir on the laptop used to retrieve the files,
[18:45:41] <tom3p> then tar up the new dir & move to the inet-less box?
[18:46:51] <tom3p> ( the box with the err has no inet acess, i need to transfer any files via 'sneaker-net' )
[18:50:44] <tom3p> btw 2.3.4 on the laptop doesnt exhibit same quirk.
[18:56:12] <tom3p> well, i hope 'sudo apt-get -d install emc2' will preserve the laptop's directorys and get me the deb file for xfer
[18:59:26] <tom3p> cool ! /var/cache/apt/archives/emc2_1%3a2.4.0-45-g427d780_i386.deb
[19:00:28] <JT-Work> Dave911: what's up
[19:01:14] <Dave911> Hi JT.. I saw your response above and thought that I missed something ....
[19:01:34] <Dave911> If not NP ..
[19:01:54] <JT-Work> oh, I was just responding to your question earlier
[19:02:03] <JT-Work> about calling files
[19:02:29] <JT-Work> should be pretty straightforward
[19:03:43] <Dave911> I thought so also .. I need to do more testing ... I probably messed something up .. I kept getting errors on the Oword calls ...
[19:04:46] <JT-Work> if the called files are not formatted correctly you will get an error
[19:05:54] <JT-Work> bbl
[19:09:55] <Dave911> that might be the issue ..
[19:15:32] <Endeavour> Greetings.
[19:23:07] <frallzor> lo boyses
[19:29:48] <andypugh> Dave911: The sub files need a matching O<whatever> sub line at the beginning and an O<whatever> endsub at the end. The interpreter is looking for the subroutine, the filename is just a hint as to where else it might look in addition to the existing code.
[19:32:26] <frallzor> its pretty interesting to see a v-bit cutting with the tip
[19:36:56] <Dave911> I have that in there already ... I think I might have a problem with my NC file locations, I'm not sure the path in the ini file is working correctly
[19:38:11] <andypugh> frallzor: I was wondering last night whether one could CNC chisel wood, with a non-rotating (but alignable) tool.
[19:40:12] <tom3p> like broaching? ( there are cnc broaches)
[19:40:29] <tom3p> and punches
[19:40:36] <cradek> lots of people even cut metal that way
[19:40:43] <cradek> like a shaper
[19:40:50] <tom3p> square corners without edm
[19:41:44] <andypugh> I have heard of a single-lip drill that is rotated and "wobbled" to cut square corners.
[19:43:22] <tom3p> ? leaned so the cone tip travels the corner edge?
[19:44:08] <andypugh> I am not sure.
[19:45:15] <tom3p> i know of 'box-drills' where the tool rambles about in the guide form
[19:45:53] <andypugh> Aye, I have seen that on Youtube. I think it is the same thing, but without the box
[19:46:17] <andypugh> Without the guide I mean, CNC guided instead
[19:49:18] <tom3p> but broaching can be handy, mount a 'C' axis on end of Z to orient the non-rotating tool ( common in EDM )
[19:49:55] <tom3p> different than edm.. need UMPH to push-cut steel
[19:50:32] <andypugh> I have cut keyways that way.
[19:53:31] <tom3p> AGie wouldnt mill their machine castings, only Shaped them. said the spinning tool created too much surface tension that warped the skin of the casting.
[19:54:47] <andypugh> Sounds like bollocks to me.
[19:57:58] <tom3p> :)
[19:58:27] <frallzor> testkarta och fota.
[19:58:28] <frallzor> <frallzor> img 8932 säger nog mycket =P
[19:58:29] <frallzor> bah
[19:58:32] <frallzor> GG mirc!
[19:59:12] <frallzor> http://www.pici.se/p/large/PTcXKKliz/ todays work, a sign =)
[20:01:17] <tom3p> nice clean cut , going to fill/paint it for some contrast?
[20:02:10] <frallzor> nah the guy wanting it was just going to oil and wax
[20:02:16] <frallzor> gift some someone
[20:03:22] <frallzor> Im so in love with my machine, the alignment of the spindle couldnt be better
[20:03:28] <frallzor> clean cuts every time!
[20:03:45] <tom3p> what is your spindle?
[20:04:14] <frallzor> a TeknoMotor spindle
[20:04:44] <frallzor> http://www.damencnc.com/tools/pics/HFTeknoMotor.JPG like this
[20:26:29] <Jymmm> That's weird.... I just had one of my google accounts "temporarily disabled", and required phone verification to re-enable it.
[20:31:10] <toastydeath> looks like an er-32
[20:31:14] <toastydeath> on that motor
[20:33:36] <frallzor> ER25 on mine
[20:47:01] <frallzor> I wish I had a nice source of exotic wood
[20:48:38] <toastydeath> *cough*
[20:48:40] <toastydeath> that's what uh
[20:48:43] <toastydeath> that's what she said.
[20:49:17] <frallzor> :P
[20:54:58] <Dave911> Jymmm: What kind of account was that?
[20:56:52] <Jymmm> Dave911: google account
[21:00:42] <frallzor> gügle
[21:37:49] <frallzor> its surpsingly fun to watch stuff being milled =P
[21:48:48] <Dave911> I meant what type of google accnt .... gmail?
[23:18:56] <pfred1> * pfred1 scored another yard sale part for his CNC machine!
[23:21:45] <celeron55> Dave911: google has the same account for gmail and everything
[23:21:56] <celeron55> called a "google account"
[23:22:15] <pfred1> celeron55 sounds expensive
[23:22:30] <andypugh> Documents, Calendar, probably Android phone...
[23:22:49] <andypugh> Checkout... Hang on, they have taken over the world!
[23:22:51] <pfred1> andypugh hey where have you been?
[23:24:14] <celeron55> youtube, adsense, blogger...
[23:24:33] <celeron55> pretty much half of the things people do on the internet!
[23:24:58] <pfred1> I have a youtube account but I don't think it got me any other google stuffs
[23:25:23] <celeron55> youtube had (or has still) their own accounts
[23:25:34] <celeron55> also
[23:25:43] <celeron55> (in addition to google's, that is)
[23:26:00] <pfred1> though after I got it suddenly my email addy pops up on Google's pages
[23:26:23] <pfred1> but other than that I see no other tie ins
[23:27:18] <pfred1> so there is some connection but not a complete one maybe it is complete going the other way?
[23:27:40] <pfred1> like if I'd signed up for a google account i'd have gotten youtube?
[23:28:34] <celeron55> i had the same account on google and on youtube and one day it asked if i'd like to combine them
[23:28:54] <pfred1> ah ha!
[23:29:47] <pfred1> * pfred1 retires his rubbery keyboard