#emc | Logs for 2010-05-16

[00:00:27] <andypugh> Currently I am PWM-ing both the high-side and low-side lines. I might take the PWM off the low-side.
[00:02:06] <andypugh> I have just tried "bypassing" the PWM on the low-side drivers with a bit of wire, and the motor moves a step.
[00:02:47] <andypugh> So I think that my timing is upsetting the internal driver logic in some way
[00:04:08] <pfred1> who wants to see my new toy?
[00:04:38] <andypugh> Maybe the shoot-through logic can't do its thing at 15kHz?
[00:04:48] <andypugh> Go on then
[00:04:58] <pfred1> yeah my driver ICs claim to be pretty limited in what they can handle
[00:05:11] <pfred1> though I've pushed them like 3X what they claim they can do no problems
[00:05:35] <pfred1> something i never could understand
[00:06:32] <pfred1> andypugh want to see my new old plane?
[00:06:48] <andypugh> Is it cute?
[00:06:53] <pfred1> I think so
[00:07:05] <pfred1> I usually don't shell out no $15 for one
[00:07:22] <pfred1> but I always wanted one of these
[00:07:37] <pfred1> they're really old skewl
[00:08:12] <andypugh> I like working wood with hand tools, depending on how much there is to do, of course.
[00:08:28] <pfred1> ah its funny if you have the right ones they can really rip
[00:08:57] <pfred1> this one once i have it all sharpened up and stuff it'll do OK
[00:09:05] <pfred1> I will use it
[00:09:40] <pfred1> I can usually get old german steel silly sharp
[00:09:58] <pfred1> like Luke use the force kinda thing
[00:10:02] <andypugh> My favourite is one of these: http://www.hansbrunnertools.gil.com.au/imagesStanley%20by%20Brunner/Stanle7.jpg
[00:10:30] <pfred1> I have two sort of like that a little
[00:10:35] <pfred1> rabbiting planes
[00:10:50] <andypugh> Great for making tenons fit.
[00:10:55] <pfred1> yup
[00:11:12] <pfred1> thats a bull nose
[00:11:59] <pfred1> * pfred1 is starting to amass a mad hand plane collection over here ...
[00:12:27] <pfred1> though I'm never going to collect those dumb profile ones
[00:12:44] <pfred1> that I'll use a router
[00:12:48] <andypugh> I have done a lot of big tenons, like 1.5" thick tenons on 6" square oak. I chopped up the waste with a radial arm saw, knocked off the blocks with a 3" chisel, then smoothed and fitted with that little thing (and a rather bigger one too, when there wasn't knuckle-room)
[00:13:03] <pfred1> oh you mean a slick?
[00:13:11] <pfred1> I got a couple of slicks
[00:13:35] <pfred1> once you go past 2" in chisels they become slicks
[00:14:08] <pfred1> though i don't have any oar slicks yet i do want to get some
[00:14:20] <pfred1> they're always wicked expensive
[00:14:27] <pfred1> like hundreds if not thousands
[00:14:53] <pfred1> you know they sort of look like boar oars?
[00:14:57] <pfred1> boat even
[00:15:07] <andypugh> Never seen them.
[00:15:09] <pfred1> but they're chisels
[00:15:16] <pfred1> I'll find a pic of one
[00:15:42] <andypugh> But I have always wondered who (if anyone) buys the Clifton Multi-Plane at £700
[00:15:44] <andypugh> http://www.flinn-garlick-saws.co.uk/acatalog/Clifton_450_Multi_Plane.html
[00:16:49] <pfred1> http://www.leevalley.com/us/images/item/woodworking/chisels/85s0710s1.jpg?c=2
[00:16:56] <pfred1> they come even bigger
[00:17:25] <pfred1> yeah like a stanley 45
[00:17:29] <pfred1> I've seen them MIB
[00:17:40] <pfred1> another thing I don't really want to get involved with
[00:18:12] <pfred1> MIB with every acessory except 2 was best I've ever seen one in person
[00:18:52] <pfred1> and yeah its awesome and all but would I really use it? and the answer to that is no
[00:19:42] <pfred1> but I've seen old slicks like 4 or more feet long
[00:19:53] <pfred1> they were used mostly for ship building
[00:20:04] <andypugh> That's a monster chisel. I have a woodturning gouge about that length, but not that heavily made.
[00:20:26] <pfred1> well they're for beating the crap out of timbers shaping them for ship parts
[00:20:40] <pfred1> but people who do log cabins like them now
[00:20:46] <andypugh> I suspect a side axe might be more effective
[00:20:56] <pfred1> yeah I have broad axes
[00:21:00] <pfred1> bot hdirections
[00:21:08] <pfred1> they're directional you know?
[00:21:27] <pfred1> lefty and righty
[00:21:30] <andypugh> I might have the wrong term, I mean the single-bevel offset-handle type
[00:21:37] <pfred1> adze?
[00:21:43] <pfred1> I got a few of those
[00:21:48] <andypugh> No, it's an axe.
[00:21:59] <andypugh> I have used an adze rather a lot.
[00:22:02] <pfred1> adzes are axes just on another axis ;)
[00:22:27] <pfred1> but they're rare and usually pricey
[00:22:47] <pfred1> you shoulda seen how excited I was when I bought my first scorp!
[00:22:58] <andypugh> Side axe.. http://www.bodgers.org.uk/bb/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=942
[00:22:58] <pfred1> they're hard to find
[00:23:25] <pfred1> basically a broad axe though I've seen and have broader
[00:23:40] <andypugh> (Googles) Ah, I have seen chair-bodgers using them.
[00:23:44] <pfred1> I bet its flat on the other side
[00:24:02] <andypugh> second picture shows the axe very clearly
[00:24:14] <pfred1> yuppers see how its handed?
[00:24:21] <pfred1> you can get them that go either way
[00:24:31] <andypugh> I can see that might be handy
[00:24:40] <pfred1> yeah if you want skin on your knuckles
[00:24:51] <KimK> pfred1: I've been fiddling with Google translate, and I have at last arrived at this miserable translation: http://pastebin.com/2wuB72t5 If anyone who speaks German is around, I invite them to do better. I'm done with it.
[00:25:27] <pfred1> KimK is that from my kooky plane?
[00:25:33] <pfred1> KimK you want to see it?
[00:25:42] <pfred1> http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/8965/hornplane.jpg
[00:25:47] <KimK> That's the one. Sure, let's have a look.
[00:26:05] <pfred1> KimK BTW thanks for the translate i did enjoy it
[00:26:10] <andypugh> You know how to adjust them?
[00:26:18] <pfred1> * pfred1 especially liked the blatten
[00:26:23] <pfred1> andypugh yup
[00:26:36] <pfred1> I got a few wood planes this is my first euro style one though
[00:26:57] <pfred1> and its a beauty
[00:27:09] <pfred1> made in Austria
[00:27:14] <pfred1> says so on the front
[00:27:30] <andypugh> Got a nice wood truing plane somewhere (2' long) but found it basically useless on our lumps of bent oak.
[00:27:49] <pfred1> they're great for roughing
[00:28:07] <pfred1> I got a 2 footer an 18 a coffin couple others
[00:28:43] <pfred1> coz now i have like 2 of most of the common Stanley iron planes
[00:28:55] <pfred1> so I sorta have to branch out
[00:29:18] <pfred1> let me pop a pic of one of my drawers of planes here
[00:31:32] <andypugh> I am going to rewire my drive, I think.
[00:31:41] <andypugh> Shouldn't take long.
[00:31:41] <pfred1> see how this came out
[00:34:26] <pfred1> one drawer of planes: http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/6417/pict0822h.jpg
[00:35:12] <pfred1> who knows what that drawer is made out of?
[00:35:31] <pfred1> see just what kinds of nerds we're dealing with here
[00:37:51] <DaViruz> some 19" rack case?
[00:38:00] <pfred1> DaViruz pretty good
[00:38:08] <pfred1> its a gutted HDD from a PDP
[00:38:19] <DaViruz> at least it looks like it the way it's mounted to the bench or whatever it is on top
[00:38:33] <pfred1> its the whole well half of the chassis
[00:38:42] <pfred1> it was like 7 foot tall I cut it in half
[00:39:24] <pfred1> DaViruz you are uber nerd!
[00:40:01] <DaViruz> that is a pretty accurate assessment
[00:40:03] <pfred1> it has really nice drawer slides let me tell you
[00:40:14] <pfred1> it is an equipment rack
[00:40:31] <pfred1> its even on a caster base
[00:40:31] <DaViruz> yeah rack slides are usually pretty decent
[00:40:39] <pfred1> accutracks
[00:40:47] <pfred1> full extensions
[00:41:11] <pfred1> though they do get dusty in the sho[
[00:41:15] <pfred1> shop even
[00:41:45] <pfred1> I think in all the years I've had them i had to give them a really good cleaning once
[00:42:01] <pfred1> they got so much saw dust and crap in them
[00:42:54] <pfred1> my cat love to drink out of my dipping bucket by my grinders what is up with that?
[00:43:03] <pfred1> that water is so scuzzy!
[00:43:14] <pfred1> I just had to tell him no
[00:44:17] <pfred1> now my big challenge will be how do I get this new plane into the drawer or do I take a plane out or what
[00:44:41] <KimK> andypugh (re: "useless on our (English) oak") reminds me of that scene from Kevin Kostner's "Robin Hood" where Kostner is locked in a room battling the villain alone, and Kostner's friend Morgan Freeman is kept out in the hall by a thick wooden door.
[00:44:44] <KimK> Freeman spies an assortment of weapons nearby and goes after the door by turns with a battle-axe, mace, sword, battering ram, etc., all to no avail.
[00:44:48] <KimK> Finally exhausted, standing bent over with his hands on his knees, Freeman mutters, "Damned English oak!"
[00:45:19] <pfred1> KimK supposedly we have the most brutal oak on the planet here
[00:45:40] <pfred1> our climate is perfect for the stuff
[00:46:16] <pfred1> stuff is crazy heavy I'll give it that
[00:48:38] <EricKeller> isn't english oak what we call white oak?
[00:48:57] <pfred1> I always thought it was oak that grew in England
[00:49:14] <EricKeller> that would be a rather broad brush
[00:49:20] <pfred1> ours is sort of whitish
[00:49:39] <EricKeller> we have white and red oak here in Pennsylvania
[00:49:54] <EricKeller> red is cheap, white is expensive
[00:50:11] <pfred1> i cut down like a 14" diameter tree and used the stump for an anvil and couldn't believe how heavy it is
[00:50:52] <pfred1> well let me measure it maybe its a bit bigger than that?
[00:51:33] <pfred1> nah I'd say 14" is a fair sizing
[00:51:49] <pfred1> the base is thicker but thats all the top is
[00:52:29] <pfred1> 200 pounds wouldn't suprise me if I weighed the thing
[00:54:29] <pfred1> the logs i got off that tree I can't even lift
[00:55:09] <pfred1> and i can dead lift oh maybe 400 500 pounds
[00:55:34] <andypugh> Some oak doesn't actually float.
[00:55:59] <pfred1> I could easily see this junk sinking
[00:56:02] <andypugh> We have 10" x 10" oak beams holding the roof up in my folk's house.
[00:56:19] <andypugh> But then the roof is made of stone.
[00:56:27] <pfred1> eventually I want to make a new bench top out of the logs i got off that tree
[00:56:33] <EricKeller> I think all oak will float... maybe
[00:56:55] <pfred1> its some wicked wood
[00:57:09] <EricKeller> there are companies that specialize in finding sunken logs in rivers
[00:57:33] <pfred1> yeah because you can't find trees like that above water anymore
[00:57:34] <EricKeller> and I guess the best stuff comes from under bogs in the UK
[00:57:44] <andypugh> http://www.bodgesoc.org/Slaithwaite2/Hall3.JPG
[00:57:49] <pfred1> I refurbished this one building that was 200 years old I cried what we had to do there
[00:58:00] <pfred1> boards 16" wide 20 ' long we had to chainsaw up
[00:58:17] <andypugh> All that wood came from trees my dad remembers as saplings. Apart from the main A-frame that was felled in 1450 or thereabouts
[00:58:24] <pfred1> but there was no way to deal with the stuff whree it was
[00:58:29] <EricKeller> andypugh: the Amish still build buildings like that in the U.S.
[00:58:53] <pfred1> we got tons of them freaks around here
[00:59:12] <pfred1> or menonites i can't tell them apart
[00:59:21] <andypugh> It's not like 200 years old is very old, after all :-)
[01:00:01] <pfred1> yeah i live next door t othe oldest town in the state it was founded like in 1640?
[01:00:12] <pfred1> maybe its older i donno
[01:00:29] <pfred1> but they sorta cheat because the first batch of settlers got wiped out by indians
[01:00:52] <pfred1> and they didn't start counting over I don't think
[01:01:47] <pfred1> I'd think if everyone got killed you should start counting over
[01:02:16] <andypugh> Maybe you should count the indians?
[01:02:27] <pfred1> I don't think they stuck around
[01:02:43] <pfred1> they got freaked out because some idiot nailed an empty suit of armor over the gate
[01:03:02] <pfred1> they thought it was a ghost or something and slaughtered everyone
[01:03:37] <pfred1> prolly thought they were doing everyone a favor or something
[01:03:52] <pfred1> those palefaces possessed!
[01:05:29] <pfred1> http://www.lewes.com/history.html
[01:05:40] <pfred1> The thirty-two settlers were destroyed by a group of local inhabitants, as a result of a dispute over a Dutch coat of arms the settlers had mounted on their settlements.
[01:05:49] <pfred1> see?
[01:06:13] <EricKeller> http://cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=775942#post775942
[01:06:13] <pfred1> I guess it was just a coat of arms not a suit of armor
[01:06:52] <EricKeller> trying to figure out what that guy's problem is, seems like it should be off consistently
[01:06:56] <pfred1> they messed up the british too by moving lanterns like a mile away
[01:07:09] <pfred1> they made a phoney light town for them to bombard
[01:08:08] <pfred1> EricKeller oh thats an easy one they're Zoned out!
[01:08:20] <EricKeller> how do they make incremental encoders show up as increments of .0005"? The encoders are all metric, usually .02mm per line
[01:08:27] <pfred1> EricKeller you have to use mach and Geckos to be completely Zoned out
[01:09:12] <EricKeller> you are very funny
[01:09:26] <pfred1> yeah they're doing it all wrong with mesa boards and emc2
[01:09:45] <pfred1> they gotta junk all that and get geckos and mach!
[01:10:07] <andypugh> Incremental linear encoders you mean?
[01:10:39] <pfred1> EricKeller now don't make me login to that dumb bunny site and post it!
[01:10:57] <KimK> andypugh: how goes the drive rewiring?
[01:11:00] <pfred1> EricKeller because if I do 99% of the users will agree with me
[01:11:04] <andypugh> It didn't help
[01:11:36] <andypugh> It is basically _not_ turning on the gates when asked
[01:12:05] <andypugh> It might be something to do with the bootstrap caps.
[01:12:31] <pfred1> 'andypugh got a schemo?
[01:12:39] <KimK> Oh, OK. and these are the (gate) drive signals that you said were really nice?
[01:13:00] <andypugh> ie, I don't see how they get charged when the motor is stationary, and I don't know how the motor stops being stationary without the caps charged
[01:13:15] <andypugh> Yes, the drive to the pins looks good.
[01:13:47] <andypugh> The schematic is pretty much identical to the one in the data sheet.
[01:14:16] <pfred1> hey like i said it was so subtle what made mine not work
[01:14:35] <KimK> pfred1: I don't have a direct link to it, but we've been looking at the data sheet from IRF.com it's irams10up60a.pdf
[01:14:41] <pfred1> I'm not kidding it was the difference of an 1/8th of an inch
[01:14:48] <andypugh> But yours is electronics. Mine is a plug-in system-onna-chip
[01:15:11] <EricKeller> read the mach forum, there are a lot of crazy newbie problems in there
[01:15:32] <pfred1> EricKeller the zone is a moron magnet
[01:15:50] <pfred1> it sucks them in like a black hole!
[01:17:03] <pfred1> andypugh i see similarities here
[01:17:12] <pfred1> VSS COM
[01:18:15] <andypugh> The logic and power earths are linked by rather thin wire.
[01:19:04] <pfred1> well this is how i fixed mine i had a filter cap and ran the logic ground right to it and the power ground from the input connector
[01:19:22] <pfred1> and as whack as it sounds it cleared things up
[01:19:43] <andypugh> I think that is what I have.
[01:20:16] <KimK> andypugh: Is the T/I (trip) input in the wrong state? It's not clear (to me at least) from just the schematic if it should be high or low.
[01:20:16] <pfred1> before i did that the driver would run with no clock going in
[01:20:22] <pfred1> but run really sick like
[01:20:46] <pfred1> well it was strange the clock wire had to be hooked up but no pulses were going
[01:21:02] <ries> hey guys, auto-homing works awesome!
[01:21:04] <pfred1> it sort of acted like a phantom ground?
[01:21:22] <KimK> andypugh: And I gather that the Vdd +15 is internally developed? Is it present?
[01:21:23] <atmega> ries: nice. I was pretty happing with mine also
[01:21:33] <andypugh> Ah, I do have the wrong value resistor in there art the moment. They sent me the wrong part.
[01:22:06] <andypugh> And I haven't switched the resistor to the new value (bottom of page 5)
[01:22:20] <pfred1> my driver looks clean unless i crank my scope all the way up and turn the sentitivity way low
[01:22:37] <andypugh> No, VDD is an external 15V.
[01:22:44] <pfred1> its carrier noise superimposed over everything
[01:23:04] <pfred1> and they all do it
[01:23:28] <andypugh> Sorry, VCC is 15 v
[01:23:31] <pfred1> heck my 7805s make a ringing
[01:23:48] <andypugh> Actually, I thing Vcc and Vdd are the same.
[01:24:16] <pfred1> another thing i did was filter each input power line
[01:24:35] <pfred1> even though my chip didn't specifically call for doing it I figured it couldn't hurt
[01:25:01] <andypugh> Let me swap that resistor for a 4k3
[01:25:12] <pfred1> 4k7 is the common value
[01:25:37] <andypugh> (though 6k8 is the current value, and I can't see such a small difference mattering)
[01:25:45] <pfred1> another commoner
[01:26:01] <pfred1> though 4k7 is common TTL pullup
[01:26:31] <pfred1> I hate when schemos call for oddball values
[01:26:32] <andypugh> Itrip is sitting at 0.6V and shouldn't trigger till at least 3,85V
[01:26:56] <KimK> OK, sounds good. What is your bus voltage? What is your switching frequency and what size bootstrap caps are you using?
[01:27:16] <ries> atmega: yup... took only 2 hours to install, most configuration I already had done locally on my desktop
[01:27:35] <andypugh> I am running at 60V bus voltage at the moment, because last time I tried 300V it went wrong.
[01:28:14] <andypugh> I have a 15kHz PWM and 2.2uF bootstrap caps (rated at 450v)
[01:28:54] <pfred1> I read the description and I'm still not too sure what this IC does
[01:29:17] <pfred1> its just a motor controller?
[01:29:22] <andypugh> Yes
[01:29:23] <KimK> That's interesting, are they polarized or non-polarized?
[01:29:25] <pfred1> OK
[01:29:40] <andypugh> Polarised, negative to the motor leads.
[01:29:43] <pfred1> dude they use it in washing machines this shouldn't be rocket science going on here
[01:30:00] <andypugh> Exactly, it is meant to be cheap and easy
[01:30:21] <pfred1> ah you're just missing something and something big it'll dawn on you
[01:30:36] <pfred1> thats the way these things always are
[01:30:56] <pfred1> there's a gorilla in the room and you WILL see it!
[01:30:58] <KimK> actually the IC/module is just the motor-drive part, the motor-controller part is "left to the student as an exercise", lol.
[01:31:00] <andypugh> Well, it sort-of works.
[01:31:33] <andypugh> If I start the motor turning by hand it carries on, but not very fast and not with much torque
[01:31:37] <pfred1> did you google the part number and see what common screw ups people experience with them?
[01:31:39] <KimK> it started working?
[01:32:05] <andypugh> Yes, Google doesn't find much.
[01:32:11] <KimK> Ah, of course. Well, there you go.
[01:32:19] <pfred1> I hate when google comes up crickets
[01:32:29] <andypugh> It has always sort-of worked.
[01:32:51] <KimK> now I'm guessing that it has a preferred direction, at least?
[01:32:57] <pfred1> it does sound like you have a noise in logic problem
[01:33:17] <pfred1> thats how mine was it ran al lsickley when it was messing up
[01:33:39] <andypugh> But it will stop and sit there with no output voltage, a stationary motor, and what appears to be good input signals that, if applied to the motor with flying leads, move it in the right direction.
[01:34:31] <pfred1> its a pretty sweet unit i think its worth getting to work
[01:34:39] <andypugh> It only runs in one direction at the moment, the direction jumper on the Arduino board is soldered up.
[01:35:18] <pfred1> all I can think is layout and isolation just keep at it
[01:35:29] <pfred1> poke and prod it while its running
[01:35:30] <KimK> What is your applied (desired) frequency? Is the motor connected right now?
[01:36:01] <andypugh> I am not convinced my signal generator is spot on, but the things it is telling the drive to do do turn the motor is applied by hand.
[01:36:38] <andypugh> What do you mean by "applied frequency"?
[01:36:48] <pfred1> how are you dealing with this thermistor stuff?
[01:37:07] <andypugh> The thermistor is just connected like at the bottom of page 5
[01:37:09] <pfred1> is it a show stopper if its not right?
[01:37:51] <andypugh> It's worth looking at, but previously the drive obviously shut-down when the chip got hot
[01:37:52] <pfred1> sometimes half this safety stuff they slap onto stuff now a days just causes more problems than solves stuff
[01:38:03] <KimK> Tell me about the feedback you are using in this system. I mean what power line frequency (or band of frequencies) are you trying to generate/simulate?
[01:38:41] <KimK> the "I mean..." is an answer to you previous Q
[01:38:42] <pfred1> so thats an external sensor for the motor?
[01:38:42] <andypugh> The drive isn't dead as such, as you turn the motor shaft it twitches, and fights if you try to turn it the wrong way
[01:39:07] <KimK> Yes, that's sounds right to me.
[01:39:40] <andypugh> Ah, the input side is kind of complicated.
[01:39:44] <KimK> What AC frequency is it being driven at?
[01:40:14] <KimK> OK, well, I mean are you running it in VFD mode or vector mode?
[01:40:25] <pfred1> yeah man this thing is really noise and layout sensitive i can tell by reading the notes
[01:40:41] <pfred1> some of this junk don't even work without being board mounted
[01:40:51] <pfred1> needs the flat traces as opposed to wires
[01:41:07] <andypugh> I have an Arduino that excites the resolver, converts the return voltages into an angle, converts the angle into hall-sensor type signals and then converts those in turn into the 6 signals of a trapezoidal commutation.
[01:41:10] <pfred1> some gets that picky
[01:43:04] <KimK> I thought this was an induction motor? Are you running a PM servo with brushless commutator?
[01:43:48] <pfred1> its 3 phase does it matter?
[01:44:02] <andypugh> The power side is doubled-up striped single-strand wire soldered to blob-board, so should be equivalent to PCB. The logic side is Vero-wire, so there is scope for noise issues, but none that the scope sees, and where would the noise come from when the motor isn't even turning?
[01:44:18] <KimK> I guess I'm wondering what you're doing with the 6 trapezoidal signals?
[01:44:20] <andypugh> Yes, the motor is a brushless servo motor
[01:44:30] <atmega> heh, hou is $700
[01:44:33] <pfred1> andypugh repeat after me there is no such thing as a noise free circuit
[01:45:18] <pfred1> like i said you look at the waves on mine looks great crank the scope all the way up horiz and there's noise
[01:45:51] <KimK> Well, hold on, I think it may be working.
[01:45:52] <pfred1> you could dance ot it its so steady
[01:45:56] <andypugh> It might be that the drive isn't right for running a BLDC motor, but there is no indication that is shouldn't work. It is basically a triple-bridge and drivers in a single package.
[01:46:24] <pfred1> I think it should run any 3 phase motor under its current capacity
[01:46:36] <pfred1> why should it care?
[01:47:19] <KimK> Yes, it should operate (I think), as long as we're just trying to spin in any manner at this point.
[01:47:20] <pfred1> like you said all you want out of it is a 3 phase bridge
[01:47:31] <pfred1> and it is that
[01:47:46] <KimK> What is the rated voltage of the motor?
[01:48:16] <andypugh> At the moment all i want to do is spin the motor. Once it does that I will hook it up to the Mesa card and the 3-Phase PWM generator and see how it works as part of a servo system.
[01:48:31] <andypugh> Motor rated voltage is 385V
[01:48:36] <pfred1> the whole bottom of this typical app has me a bit concerned some of it is detailed then it gets vague to the right
[01:49:02] <pfred1> oh wait thats inside the unit OK
[01:49:27] <KimK> OK, so how are you setting your power frequency and what is it set to?
[01:49:56] <andypugh> I don't have a power frequency, I am running DC.
[01:50:12] <KimK> But I mean the "motor frequency"
[01:50:23] <andypugh> ie the drive signals follow the motor, not the other way round.
[01:50:28] <KimK> the output of the 3-phase totem poles
[01:51:03] <pfred1> 'have you tried it with nothing connected to T/Trip?
[01:51:11] <KimK> OK, then what is the "setpoint" speed?
[01:51:16] <pfred1> all that junk may be optional
[01:51:23] <pfred1> it looks like an output
[01:51:28] <andypugh> In the past, with the previous driver. It didn't work at all
[01:51:40] <pfred1> ok so it needs it
[01:52:14] <andypugh> No setpoint speed either. I really am trying to run it as an electronically commutated DC motor
[01:53:11] <pfred1> isn't that the whole idea of this thing?
[01:53:37] <andypugh> The uP measures the rotor position, works out which phases to energise for max torque, and sends the appropriate PWM-modulated signals to the 6 input wires.
[01:53:48] <pfred1> you're basically building a 3 phase stepper right?
[01:54:33] <andypugh> No. The field always leads the rotor by 90 degrees.
[01:55:46] <andypugh> 3-phase stepper would be easy, and might be worth experimenting with (ie switch the phase pattern at a fixed speed and ignore the resolver).
[01:56:25] <pfred1> I'm still leaning towards layout and filtering
[01:56:59] <andypugh> There is none shown on their schematic. I wouldn't know where to start.
[01:57:36] <pfred1> they tell you in the app notes
[01:57:47] <pfred1> on page 9
[01:57:54] <andypugh> Just a sanity check, it is active-low logic isn't it? ie at any one time one of H(123) and one of L(123) should be low?
[01:58:34] <andypugh> app notes?
[01:58:48] <pfred1> Typical Application Connection IRAMS10UP60A
[01:59:20] <pfred1> In order to provide good decoupling between VCC-Gnd and VB-VSS terminals, the capacitors shown connected between
[01:59:22] <andypugh> OK, the datasheet? I thought you had found another document.
[01:59:23] <pfred1> these terminals should be located very close to the module pins. Additional high frequency capacitors, typically
[01:59:26] <pfred1> 0.1μF, are strongly recommended.
[01:59:29] <pfred1> blah blah blah
[01:59:49] <andypugh> Yeah, where do these 0.1uF caps go then?
[01:59:51] <pfred1> sometimes with junk like this its critical
[02:00:00] <pfred1> they tell you
[02:00:05] <pfred1> close to the pins
[02:00:12] <andypugh> Yes, but which pins?
[02:00:16] <pfred1> you get lead ringing
[02:00:26] <pfred1> all the power ins
[02:00:30] <pfred1> to ground
[02:01:01] <pfred1> they're in the schemo too but then they stress the physical distance in the notes
[02:01:02] <andypugh> I have 10uF and 100nF between Vdd and GND.
[02:01:09] <KimK> re: active-low: yes, but I think you must always include some dead-time where neither is low. Otherwise you come too close to having them both on at once (yikes!)
[02:01:16] <pfred1> right on the pins?
[02:01:24] <pfred1> with short leads
[02:01:37] <andypugh> No, not right on the pins, but adjacent.
[02:01:47] <pfred1> when they say as close as possible they mean right there
[02:02:03] <andypugh> I did have a 100nF across the main power rail, but it turned out not to be 300V ratd
[02:02:13] <KimK> re: active-low: ...like the two waveforms at the top of page 6.
[02:02:43] <pfred1> yeah thats the troubles you're going to have with this project getting up to rated parts for some stuff
[02:03:20] <andypugh> The reason I chose this part was the bit on page 1 which says "cross-conduction prevention logic"
[02:03:36] <pfred1> so it auto deadbands for you?
[02:03:57] <pfred1> which would be a nice feature
[02:04:11] <pfred1> i.e. you can't bridge short
[02:04:30] <KimK> OK, great then, I hadn't spotted that, thanks.
[02:04:33] <pfred1> bridges have to delay so you don't turn them into shorts
[02:04:34] <andypugh> So I believe. (And so AVR believe too, looking at http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/doc2592.pdf )
[02:05:03] <pfred1> OK so this has a logic lock out that disallows bridge shorting
[02:05:13] <pfred1> evne if you're dingly enough to ask it to
[02:05:23] <andypugh> That was my hope.
[02:05:28] <pfred1> thatd be nice
[02:05:34] <KimK> re: "...3-phase stepper would be easy..." Yes, that is what you need to do first, I think. Open the loop. I can't speak to 3-phase PM motors, but assume they are the same. Induction motors need a V/F output reduction, are you including that?
[02:05:53] <pfred1> yeah always go simple to complex
[02:06:16] <pfred1> if there's any way to disable a feature and simplify to test a subsection go with it
[02:06:31] <KimK> and with running a 385V motor on 60V it's bound to be wimpy to begin with
[02:06:54] <pfred1> I always go with crawl before i run
[02:07:05] <andypugh> I had it running strongly but slowly at 30V with a commercial drive.
[02:07:41] <pfred1> if it was me doing this I'd really want to see other examples if at all possible
[02:08:00] <pfred1> like there's no appliances with this thing in it?
[02:08:21] <andypugh> Even at 30V there was a ton of torque, but it tripped the drive in seconds.
[02:09:37] <pfred1> this thing is pretty cool its worth getting it to work
[02:09:48] <pfred1> I'm checking out some of the charts now
[02:10:00] <pfred1> its a hot rod!
[02:10:36] <pfred1> 10 amps I mean jeez
[02:10:38] <andypugh> And costs $15 for 50, so is rather inexpensive
[02:11:08] <pfred1> 6000 watts how can that be right?
[02:11:27] <pfred1> ah OK 20 W
[02:11:32] <andypugh> I guess you could use 2/3 of it as a stepper driver.
[02:11:53] <KimK> In an induction motor drive they apply a V/F reduction to the output voltage, so if a motor is normally 240V at 50Hz, it would only get 24V at 5Hz, etc. How are you sensing current and voltage on your Arduino?
[02:12:11] <andypugh> The point is that is is always (ideally) on or off, so doesn't dissipate power internally.
[02:12:22] <pfred1> KimK I'm glad you asked because that was bugging me
[02:12:37] <andypugh> I am not sensing current at all at the moment.
[02:12:52] <KimK> OK. How about voltage?
[02:12:59] <andypugh> Nor that
[02:13:26] <andypugh> I have, however, measured both, and they are low. Very low.
[02:13:49] <KimK> OK. Then what I think you should do is disregard the resolver and just see if you can spin (in any manner).
[02:13:55] <andypugh> Like when the motor isn't turning, zero and zero...
[02:13:57] <pfred1> yeah when I'm protoing i run my whole circuit through an ammeter just to keep an eye on things
[02:14:16] <pfred1> if it goes way way up I know bad things are going on the fuse in the meter can help too
[02:15:16] <andypugh> I see what you are saying, but it sounds like a lot of work to find out something I don't really want to know.
[02:15:42] <pfred1> no i run my hot right out of the meter
[02:15:58] <pfred1> power supply to meter to project
[02:16:23] <KimK> And keep in mind that you'll get energy back (increased bus voltage) when you decelerate. Maybe that's why you had trouble running at 300V?
[02:16:26] <pfred1> monitor total draw
[02:17:07] <pfred1> KimK thats how everyone kills the ICs I'm working with now with BEMF
[02:17:28] <pfred1> KimK they see it rated at 40V but don't take BEMF into account at all
[02:17:45] <pfred1> then wonder why stuff blows up on them
[02:18:00] <KimK> I think I'll borrow one of SWP's patented "heh"s
[02:18:43] <andypugh> Here is a typical situation: Say the motor is turning and I stall it with my fingers (not difficult) when I let go it sits there stopped. Scope on the pins shows that Phase A is getting a PWM on the High side, and C is getting the PWm on the low side. If I disconnect the motor, take flying leads from the PSU and touch + to A and - to C, the motor kicks round 1/12 of a turn in the right direction. That indicates to me that t
[02:18:43] <andypugh> Arduino is sending the right signals, but the drive is not acting on them,
[02:18:44] <KimK> You can build a regen circuit. And maybe you should.
[02:18:53] <KimK> regen braking
[02:19:04] <KimK> (energy waster)
[02:19:19] <pfred1> well the thing has freewheeling diodes built into it but they apparently aren't enough
[02:19:49] <andypugh> When the previous chip blew up the motor was oscillating wildly... I had the commutation wrong. I am confident it is approximately right now.
[02:20:17] <pfred1> who said electronics isn't esciting?
[02:20:34] <pfred1> i haven't had a really decent explosion in a while
[02:20:44] <pfred1> I have torched some stuff though!
[02:20:52] <pfred1> I mean leads hanging out of boards
[02:21:04] <pfred1> all that was left
[02:21:40] <pfred1> I'm telling you TO-220 packages are great on celebrations
[02:21:53] <KimK> OK let's talk more about your typical situation. "Say the motor is turning..." How did the motor get started turning in the first place?
[02:22:25] <KimK> Did you have to spin it?
[02:22:30] <pfred1> yeah it sounds to me like his field isn't leading right
[02:22:34] <andypugh> I started it with a flick. If I do that it will grumble round, but not well.
[02:23:08] <pfred1> yeah you're sure the fields are phased right? like you're generating the right waveform
[02:23:52] <andypugh> Even with the filed not leading right, you shouldn't be able to turn the rotor with no resistance thorough several degrees while the drive has a high and a low input pin set.
[02:23:53] <pfred1> you have to have the moment Tesla had walking in the park now
[02:24:34] <pfred1> where his buddy thought he cracked up
[02:25:36] <pfred1> you're saying you're getting no lock?
[02:25:41] <andypugh> I suppose I could be dropping out on overcurrent, and then it has another go when it sees a different pattern on the inputs, but that seems odd.
[02:25:56] <andypugh> Yes, the motor is stopped but floppy.
[02:25:58] <pfred1> OK try this ditch the motor crank it really low and use indicator lights
[02:26:12] <pfred1> like run it so you can see the phase changes
[02:26:12] <KimK> pfred1: Oooh, a Tesla story I haven't heard, is there a link?
[02:26:24] <pfred1> KimK I'll get you the file name hold a sec
[02:26:46] <pfred1> KimK Biography_of_Nikola_Tesla.pdf
[02:26:59] <KimK> thanks
[02:27:01] <pfred1> its pretty good
[02:27:13] <pfred1> I got a few hardcopy book bios of him too
[02:27:50] <pfred1> yeah they do the 3 phase AC story nice in that file
[02:28:16] <andypugh> With the motor stopped you can turn it the right way and after a while it might start spinning, or the wrong way and a few degres later it will push back quite hard. But I think it should always have rotor lock if the drive is acting on instructions.
[02:28:26] <pfred1> seems tesla didn't always understand other people couldn't see his hallucinations
[02:29:17] <pfred1> andypugh but can you ditch the motor use indicator lamps and clock it slow enoug hto see whats going on?
[02:29:37] <pfred1> andypugh knowledge is key
[02:29:51] <pfred1> once you know everything it'll work
[02:29:51] <andypugh> Not without rewriting the code, as nothing at all happens without the resolver input.
[02:30:14] <pfred1> right now all you got is a twitching motor thats not enough
[02:30:19] <andypugh> One thing I have just remebered:
[02:31:04] <pfred1> blinkin lites could instantly let you visualize whats what
[02:31:27] <pfred1> plus it'd be mondo cool to do
[02:31:39] <pfred1> sure beat a twitching motor
[02:32:08] <pfred1> crawl walk run
[02:32:54] <pfred1> people who try to skip steps often land on their faces
[02:32:59] <andypugh> I need lights that work from 0.5V to 60V (or 300V)
[02:33:21] <pfred1> house bulbs will work
[02:33:26] <pfred1> not super low but pretty low
[02:33:46] <andypugh> You can't buy them any more...
[02:33:49] <pfred1> plus they look really cool at 60V
[02:34:18] <pfred1> jeez
[02:34:40] <pfred1> nothng is ever as easy as it should be
[02:34:50] <andypugh> Compact Fluorescents might add more problems than they answer.
[02:34:58] <KimK> You could use an LED with a current limiter, it would come on bright early and then not get any brighter (hotter, though).
[02:35:02] <pfred1> oh yeah don't try to use those this has to be simple
[02:35:15] <KimK> actually a set of three of them
[02:35:43] <andypugh> Six?
[02:36:04] <KimK> Ha, yes, you're right, six!
[02:36:05] <andypugh> The relative voltages switch directions
[02:36:07] <pfred1> I made a project case with a neon indicator then the neon burnt out and I didn't have another so I put an LED in there with a dropping resistor and some diodes
[02:36:30] <andypugh> And 6 current limiters. I have one, but it cost £2
[02:36:58] <pfred1> its amazing how much you have to drop from 120V to run an LED
[02:37:07] <pfred1> I had ot use a 5 watt resistor
[02:37:34] <pfred1> but it looks really cool
[02:37:37] <KimK> But lights or no, pfred1 has a good idea, break the feedback loop by not connecting the motor windings. Lights would be good. Or not.
[02:38:04] <pfred1> the thing is you have to know all
[02:38:15] <andypugh> I have done lots of experiments with the motor unplugged.
[02:38:28] <pfred1> sure you know it doesn't work now but you need to know every gory detail to figure out why
[02:38:49] <pfred1> and a twitching motor just ain't doing it for me
[02:39:32] <andypugh> Trying to figure it out at 0330 isn't working for me either.
[02:39:49] <pfred1> I hear ya but think how you can monitor the phases better than the motor
[02:40:00] <pfred1> to see how it is running or not
[02:40:18] <andypugh> I know it isn't.
[02:40:23] <pfred1> maybe then it will be obvious what isn't synching
[02:40:27] <andypugh> I just don't know how it isn't
[02:41:21] <KimK> Since you have a resolver, are you using Clarke and/or Parke transforms? (I forget which is which).
[02:41:22] <pfred1> its how I do timing stuff a lot run it slow enough I can see it
[02:41:26] <pfred1> then once its right speed it up
[02:41:53] <pfred1> hey couldn't you put transformers on each?
[02:42:04] <andypugh> I have no idea what transforms I am doing, but I think arctan is inverse Park
[02:42:13] <KimK> Ah, 0330, sorry. Time to pack it in then?
[02:42:22] <pfred1> yeah man sleep on it
[02:42:43] <KimK> I think you're closer than you think.
[02:42:44] <andypugh> I have not slept for about a week, thinking about it and related puzzles.
[02:42:45] <pfred1> I gotta hit it too was a long day for me
[02:42:56] <KimK> OK, pfred1, see you later.
[02:42:58] <pfred1> I was on the road at 4 AM here
[02:43:11] <KimK> That's a long day.
[02:43:42] <KimK> It's about 9:45pm in central USA
[02:43:53] <pfred1> yup I'm EST
[02:43:59] <andypugh> I might pick up some 250V bulbs tomorrow, but I am not sure they will tell me much that the scope and multimeter haven't.
[02:44:07] <pfred1> so I'm coming up on 24 hours now myself
[02:44:23] <pfred1> andypugh you got 6 channel scope?
[02:44:44] <andypugh> No, sadly only 2 channels.
[02:44:53] <pfred1> yeah see sometimes you need the whole picture
[02:45:08] <KimK> That's OK, 2 will do.
[02:45:11] <pfred1> I know I'd sure want to see it all
[02:45:30] <andypugh> I can see "PWM there, PWM there, nothing at all on the output terminals" perfectly clearly with one channel.
[02:45:49] <pfred1> OK
[02:46:38] <andypugh> I would love to see the gate-drive voltages.
[02:47:03] <andypugh> But short of drilling holes in the package, that's not going to happen.
[02:47:03] <pfred1> why can't you scope those?
[02:47:46] <pfred1> they can't be inferred by external values?
[02:48:01] <pfred1> like what your inputs are?
[02:48:17] <andypugh> I can infer that they are zero from the lack of motor-spinnage.
[02:48:45] <andypugh> Or I can infer that they are PWM from the input lines.
[02:48:55] <KimK> andypugh: I would like to work with you again on this but tomorrow I won't be back until the afternoon at the earliest. Maybe Monday afternoon/night you'll be at it again?
[02:49:00] <andypugh> But which is the true inference?
[02:49:13] <andypugh> I might be.
[02:49:27] <andypugh> Almost certainly,
[02:49:51] <andypugh> I was hoping to have this drive working now, and be started on the HAL driver :-(
[02:50:20] <pfred1> like i wanted to spend 2 days trouble shooting that last driver i made
[02:50:30] <pfred1> but it made fixing it that much sweeter when I got it
[02:50:48] <pfred1> it was a high high
[02:51:26] <andypugh> I am more tempted to connect this to 240V and end the suspense
[02:51:47] <andypugh> Right, bed, before the sun comes up.
[02:51:51] <andypugh> See you all next time
[02:51:59] <pfred1> use an extension cord
[02:52:02] <KimK> OK. I usually stay logged in so I can scroll back and read the chat, but I stopped using "marked away" when I found it blocks people from leaving me messages. So, unfortunately, it always looks like I'm here. Maybe I should rename to include _afk or something?
[02:52:11] <pfred1> there's a logger
[02:52:33] <KimK> Yeah, I should use that thing more than I do.
[02:52:49] <pfred1> I forget how it works
[02:53:02] <pfred1> but you can ask it for a bookmark and it spits out a URL
[02:53:18] <KimK> I think you just say logger, bookmark
[02:53:26] <pfred1> logger_emc
[02:53:37] <pfred1> I think
[02:53:48] <KimK> logger2, bookmark
[02:53:50] <pfred1> yeah thats the bot
[02:53:57] <pfred1> logger_emc !bookmark
[02:53:59] <KimK> Oops
[02:54:07] <KimK> logger_2, bookmark
[02:54:07] <KimK> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2010-05-16.txt
[02:54:08] <pfred1> nah try it the other way
[02:54:31] <KimK> There I go, stumbled across it eventually, lol
[02:54:31] <pfred1> hey you did it
[02:55:21] <KimK> OK, thanks, pfred1 goodnight
[02:55:37] <KimK> I'll be here a bit yet
[02:56:17] <pfred1> I got a free computer today too
[02:56:38] <KimK> Hey, free is good. What was it?
[02:56:52] <pfred1> not entirely sure yet didn't fire it up
[02:56:58] <pfred1> its a pentium 3
[02:57:05] <pfred1> donno what clock yet
[02:57:22] <pfred1> don't even know if it works
[02:57:33] <pfred1> probably does though
[02:58:05] <pfred1> its a gateway e3400
[02:58:13] <KimK> OK, Ubuntu 10.04 EMC2 live disk, here we come! Well, pretty soon, anyway.
[02:58:14] <pfred1> corporate model
[02:58:39] <pfred1> thing sure had enough tweed lint in it
[02:59:35] <KimK> Is that one of their server (RAID) models? (tweed lint, that's a good one)
[02:59:47] <pfred1> but all i have for my emc2 is a 1 GHz P3
[03:00:02] <pfred1> so its at least a good backup for that
[03:00:30] <pfred1> and it may be faster
[03:01:05] <pfred1> but all I got done on it was cleaning it out so far
[03:01:35] <pfred1> it has at least 2 HDDs in it doubt they're RAIDed though
[03:01:55] <KimK> I've got an old Gateway 7400 here, and I can install the desktop 10.04, but since it has RAID, I wanted to try the alternate install, and it won't. The disk is good, and tried burning one twice. Both verify on other machines. Both stall at the same spot during installation.
[03:02:16] <pfred1> I hate when that happens
[03:02:29] <pfred1> I just got a sweet burner drive for this PC
[03:02:32] <pfred1> an MSI
[03:02:42] <pfred1> thing is so quiet you can't tell its running
[03:02:52] <pfred1> its spooky
[03:03:11] <pfred1> I thnk it cost a whopping $33 from newegg
[03:03:13] <KimK> I'm not sure what's going on. I tried some of the helpful startup options, nothing I tried worked. I might go back to desktop.
[03:03:41] <pfred1> it burns any kind of disc made by man as far as i can tell but I guess they all do now
[03:03:54] <pfred1> cept its not a litescribe
[03:04:35] <pfred1> but if you're ever in the market for a new burner I recommend them
[03:05:12] <KimK> Yeah, burns anything, that's good. Too bad that doesn't always work out (Blu-Ray v. HD-DVD, etc.)
[03:05:32] <pfred1> oh no its not a blu-ray
[03:05:53] <pfred1> I forgot about those just the plain DVDs
[03:06:37] <pfred1> hmm it went up a buck or the buck dropped a few
[03:06:49] <pfred1> http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?Item=N82E16827100058
[03:07:19] <pfred1> well mine is just eide
[03:07:46] <pfred1> but lots of drives sound like they're going to fall apart when they run this one is silent
[03:08:12] <pfred1> like you have to look at the lite silent
[03:08:51] <pfred1> and i think that is so sweet
[03:11:11] <pfred1> heh the one guy is right the tray does clunk when you close it
[03:11:47] <pfred1> but who cares? I mean I don't want to hear it when its running
[03:13:06] <pfred1> hmm they're not throwing in the extra faceplate anymore either
[05:06:13] <miken> miken is now known as _miken
[09:44:54] <MattyMatt> are there any simple scripts to zigzag over a rectangle?
[09:49:33] <MattyMatt> I found one on cnczone...in VB.net :)
[10:23:51] <MattyMatt> http://imagebin.ca/view/BdET9qX.html
[10:53:46] <JT-Dev> what do you mean by zigzag
[11:06:50] <JT-Dev> cut a pocket or face off the material or other
[11:51:22] <MattyMatt> face off
[11:51:44] <JT-Dev> have you looked at the simple g code generators on the wiki?
[11:52:07] <MattyMatt> I knew there was somewhere else :)
[11:52:59] <JT-Dev> some have been made to dump the code into gedit which is cool as you can build a file that way
[11:53:02] <MattyMatt> I thought I'd seen a py one, but I couldn't find it in the docs or forum
[11:53:34] <JT-Dev> stuff like that would not be in the docs but a link on the forum would be nice I think
[11:54:24] <MattyMatt> I would think a rectangle would be easy in gcode subroutine
[11:55:34] <tobs_> Hi, How can I create a ngc file for the mill? Is there a simple way to create theses files?
[11:55:57] <MattyMatt> do you like blender?
[11:56:38] <JT-Dev> the g code generators on the wiki help tobs_
[11:56:50] <tobs_> I am not used to blender. It would be nice if it is a program not to hard to use
[11:56:50] <MattyMatt> you know you're in trouble when blender is the simple solution :)
[11:57:56] <tobs_> In the thest examples there is a text EMC2 AXIS. How can I change that simple engraving to a customized test?
[11:58:58] <MattyMatt> there is a text to gcode somewhere, probably on the wiki where I'm about to look for one
[11:59:16] <tobs_> I mean what programs do you use for your mill to create ngc files?
[12:00:00] <pjm> yo MattyMatt have u checked out http://www.deskam.com/deskengrave.html ?
[12:01:20] <tobs_> Yes nice this is what i need for the engraving text :-)
[12:02:01] <MattyMatt> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Simple_EMC_G-Code_Generators
[12:02:03] <tobs_> pjm Do you know also a program for drawing pictures and then converting it to ngc files?
[12:02:19] <pjm> i use cambam
[12:02:21] <MattyMatt> I use blender
[12:02:47] <MattyMatt> it's what I'm used to :)
[12:03:25] <MattyMatt> CAM programs are better at CAM, but blender wins as a full featured stable 3d editor, with python
[12:04:09] <tobs_> I think blender is hard to use for people that are new to that
[12:04:17] <MattyMatt> it's true
[12:04:46] <MattyMatt> it's like riding a bicycle tho, you only need to learn once
[12:05:11] <MattyMatt> it took me 2 weeks to make my first model :)
[12:05:28] <MattyMatt> and now I can do one in as little as 14 days
[12:07:38] <tobs_> how was your start in blender? Do you had help or did you learned it from tutorials and howtos?
[12:11:17] <MattyMatt> it was all howtos back then. I learn new stuff from videos mostly, or I foind out the new stuff exists that way, anyway :)
[12:13:54] <MattyMatt> if you want to run mGcodeGenerator you'll need blender 2.4x, not 2.5
[12:14:47] <MattyMatt> I had to backtrack, I started a new script for 2.5 but had to backport, and now I've merged mine with mGcodeGenerator
[12:15:42] <MattyMatt> I'm adding loads of GUI fluff in a defunct GUI api :)
[12:24:21] <MattyMatt> pjm, thanks for the link. I just want to steal their stick font :)
[12:25:00] <MattyMatt> I hope it's a real stick font TTF, and not just a zero width outline
[13:11:34] <anonimasu> pcw_home: are you there?
[13:39:30] <pcw_home> Yes
[13:40:29] <JT-Dev> hmmm mesanet.com seems to be down
[13:41:05] <SWPadnos> it's fine from here
[13:41:31] <archivist> you need new string jt worksforme
[13:43:15] <pcw_home> I cant get it either
[13:44:29] <JT-Dev> doesn't work for Rob either
[13:45:47] <pcw_home> you can alway try freeby.mesanet.com and I'll send off another nastygram to our hosting provider
[13:47:14] <archivist> dns tests out ok
[13:47:51] <JT-Dev> pcw_home: freeby.mesanet.com works
[13:50:38] <pcw_home> I guess our DSL at work is more reliable than our hoting company :-)
[13:50:52] <pcw_home> (hosting)
[13:52:26] <JT-Dev> I switched mine to webhost4life.com a while back from godaddy
[13:53:57] <pcw_home> This is the third time in the last three weeks so maybe to move
[13:54:22] <JT-Dev> ow, that gets to be a pain
[13:54:41] <JT-Dev> so far I like webhost4life.com
[13:56:05] <JT-Dev> gnipsel.com is my personal web page on there
[13:56:34] <pcw_home> Its just sort of sentimental the company was our original service provider (a little bitty local company)
[13:56:35] <pcw_home> but they got taken over by a larger corporation and have gone downhill in stages
[13:57:02] <JT-Dev> * JT-Dev wanders back to the shop to see why my email from the Hardinge did not arrive down here in the beer cave
[13:58:08] <JT-Dev> I hate when that happens
[14:26:31] <pcw_home> Your lathe emails you?
[14:28:21] <JT-Dev> well I e-mailed myself from the lathe
[14:29:18] <anonimasu> pcw_home: how do I hook up the sensors to the rs4?? board? (wiring with the resistors)?
[14:29:50] <pcw_home> Well I guess if its not emailing other lathes you have nothing to worry about...
[14:30:10] <pcw_home> rs4?
[14:30:18] <anonimasu> 7i47
[14:33:38] <pcw_home> 7I47 is not too suited to sensors because it has RS-422 type inputs
[14:33:40] <pcw_home> but you can disable termination and tie one input to say 2.5V and use the other
[14:33:41] <pcw_home> as a TTL type input
[14:34:12] <JT-Dev> pcw_home: yea, if it started to communicate with other lathes that would be a problem cause soon the mills would want to join in the network
[14:34:32] <anonimasu> pcw_home: hmm.. and what do I wire my home switches up to in the other end?
[14:34:41] <anonimasu> 5v?
[14:34:57] <pcw_home> Yea 5V
[14:35:01] <anonimasu> and are there a output I could use for 5v on that board?
[14:35:23] <pcw_home> Yes there are multiple 5V pins
[14:35:37] <anonimasu> what kind of resistor size is suitable for that?
[14:37:05] <pcw_home> what I would do is make a single low impedance divider (say 2x 100 Ohm resistors)
[14:37:06] <pcw_home> for the 2.5V reference and connect this reference to all the -INs (make sure you disable termination)
[14:37:52] <anonimasu> is the 5v outputs current limited?
[14:38:01] <anonimasu> (I cant access the datasheet on your site)
[14:38:57] <pcw_home> (try freeby.mesanet.com until our main site is up again)
[14:39:48] <DaViruz> pcw_home: oh, you're with mesa?
[14:39:58] <pcw_home> yes
[14:41:44] <DaViruz> then perhaps i can ask you about the length of the 5I20 and 5I23. The 5I20 would suit me fine but i'm not sure if it will fit in my case since it looks like it's a fair bit longer than the 5I23
[14:44:42] <anonimasu> pcw_home: thanks alot for the help sorry to bother you in a sunday
[14:45:50] <pcw_home> 5I20 is 6.2" long (Std PCI size)
[14:45:52] <pcw_home> 5I23 is 4.75" long
[14:47:00] <pcw_home> anonimasu NP just waiting for breakfast to magically appear :-)
[14:54:46] <Nick001> will the 5i20 provide i?o pins working with emc2 and a pico conroller? I'm not getting anywhere with installing an extra printer port card
[14:55:58] <DaViruz> pcw_home: OK, thanks! :)
[14:57:38] <pcw_home> A printer port would (well should) be easier and cheaper if you just need a few I/O bits
[15:02:13] <Nick001> I have 2 different ones with wierd install instructions for linux and neither will install and I certainly can't address or see the cards or pins so I cant tell emc2 about the pins. So I want to look at something different to work with the pico controller.
[15:04:01] <pcw_home> oh you need a parallel card that works in EPP mode to interface to a Pico controller?
[15:07:53] <JT-Hardinge> crumb... I missed one jumper on the fork
[15:08:06] <Nick001> thats what both of these are supposed to be. I just forgot about the epp mode.
[15:10:19] <JT-Hardinge> the ungar is getting a workout this morning :)
[15:14:46] <pcw_home> Maybe ask Jon what he recommends
[15:14:47] <pcw_home> Its trick to find a add-on parallel port that is recognized and setup properly by Linux and supports EPP
[15:14:49] <pcw_home> Netmos cards are fine for GPIO but their EPP mode is broken, and a few cards with working EPP mode
[15:14:50] <pcw_home> dont seem to be setup properly by Linux
[15:28:10] <JT-Hardinge> YEA! my F.O.R.K. works now
[15:29:09] <JT-Hardinge> * JT-Hardinge looks in the HAL config window and sees some new led bits in the hm2_5i20
[15:33:51] <tvc> Hey guys, can anyone point me in the right direction to start editing my HAL / INI files? I'm looking at this link and it seems like old information? http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?SampleParport
[15:34:29] <tvc> oh wait I missed the link never mind :)
[15:36:04] <JT-Hardinge> tvc: you start here http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html//hal_basic_hal.html
[15:36:09] <Nick001> Jon has 1 card hooked up and dosen't know any others that will work. His card has to be set to EPP under windows and then moved to the linux box. Not very handy.
[15:38:49] <tvc> JT-Hardinge: Thanks
[15:50:49] <pcw_home> What so sad about the EPP thing is that theres a standard way to set EPP mode (IEE1284) but most
[15:50:51] <pcw_home> chipset companies got clever and require special manufacturer specific setup to work
[15:50:53] <pcw_home> And some cards that dont require setup (like the Lava cards) Linux manages to break
[15:59:50] <tvc> btw that tcl script has a problem with it when using the ubuntu8.40 install w/ EMC
[16:00:11] <tvc> (script here: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?SampleParport)
[16:00:40] <tvc> this line "set temp [exec bin/halcmd $returntype $whattodo $whattofind]"
[16:01:06] <tvc> does not need the "bin/" in front of halcmd
[16:01:14] <tvc> someone should update the wiki...
[16:06:52] <micges> tvc: if you think there is bug on wiki, fix it yourself: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?BasicSteps
[16:07:31] <tvc> Do I have permissions to make changes to the tcl script?
[16:08:24] <archivist> its on your computer, you can do what you like
[16:09:17] <archivist> then make a patch and send to the ems developers list for consideration
[16:09:23] <archivist> emc
[16:10:20] <archivist> stuff on the wiki go ahead and fix
[16:13:36] <tvc> ok
[16:20:22] <andypugh> molten metal coming out of an inrush suppressor is not good, right?
[16:22:56] <archivist> you let the smoke AND metal out :)
[16:23:35] <andypugh> So it seems
[16:24:09] <andypugh> I am getting heartily annoyed by this motor drive.
[16:25:13] <andypugh> But it looks like I can stop for the day now, with 2 blown optos (or so it seems) and the inrush suppressor dead.
[16:29:54] <JT-Dev> andypugh: you must like blowing things up
[16:30:02] <andypugh> No, I hate it.
[16:30:26] <JT-Dev> then quit doing it!
[16:30:32] <skunkworks> I have liquefied some mosfets before.. the metal flowed out between the semiconductor and the heatsink. didn't go bang
[16:30:56] <andypugh> And I am beginning to despise this IRAMS module that simply doesn't seem to do what the datasheet says it should do.
[16:32:09] <andypugh> Blowing parts up is a consequence of me trying more and more desperate ways to try to persuade it to work
[16:33:23] <skunkworks> well - I know that current rating doesn't always mean you can get the heat away fast enough....
[16:33:44] <skunkworks> jmkasunich schooled me on that one.
[16:34:10] <andypugh> The more you mess with a circuit the more likely you are to plug something in back to front, drop the solder across the bus lines (I think that's what did for the optos), short pins with a scope probe etc. I have been doing very little other than stare blankly at this circuit for several days.
[16:35:14] <pcw_home> andypugh: did you verify that the bootstrap circuit is working?
[16:35:21] <andypugh> Not that is is actually a circuit.
[16:35:54] <skunkworks> are you protoboarding it? or actually etched a circuit board?
[16:36:12] <andypugh> it _should_ just be a mount for the power module and the connectors to interface it to the signal source.
[16:36:59] <andypugh> Still protoboard. I am immensely glad I don't have a PCB, as that would be even more frustrating.
[16:37:50] <awallin> andypugh: http://www.anderswallin.net/wp-content/2006_06servo/proto_powerstage.pdf
[16:38:08] <andypugh> Yes, did that actually work?
[16:38:09] <skunkworks> well - if your power traces are not big enough.. you may be having some inductance issues..
[16:39:04] <awallin> andypugh: I got the motor to rotate, slow, fast, positioning. but I didn't push it to the max wrt voltage or current
[16:39:28] <awallin> andypugh: it almost certainly needs something like a CPU heatsink and fan bolted to it to keep cool
[16:40:10] <pcw_home> You can partially verify bootstrap operation by driving only low side IGBTs. and checking bootstrap capacitor voltage (no VBUS required)
[16:41:30] <pcw_home> Also did you have adequate deadzone setup? (it may fault every PWM cycle if not)
[16:42:52] <awallin> this is driven directly from an m5i20? is there any current-feedback? or over-protection?
[16:44:38] <andypugh> I have no deadzone, but http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/doc2592.pdf suggests that isn't a problem
[16:45:19] <andypugh> The bootstrap caps are 15V relative to their power lines
[16:45:41] <andypugh> I have no current feedback, but then I have no current either.
[16:47:58] <awallin> do you have the same AMS10 part which is shown in the atmel pdf?
[16:49:10] <andypugh> I think I have enough heatsinking: http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/RxMKsYlqKJMaz6TEtYtnxg?feat=directlink
[16:49:22] <awallin> decoupling caps close to all Vcc pins? FLT/Enable pins checked and double checked? :) start with something lower than 180VDC for the V+?
[16:49:28] <andypugh> And big enough power bus tracks: http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/iED8raY6B-m4qbFwS6bvDw?feat=directlink
[16:49:52] <awallin> did you check that the PWM is not inverted if you have optoisolators?
[16:50:04] <awallin> and the PWM logic levels are OK?
[16:50:05] <andypugh> The PWM is inverted, which is good.
[16:50:14] <andypugh> And hits exactly 0V and 5V
[16:50:19] <pcw_home> Fault output OK?
[16:50:47] <andypugh> Tied to ground with the 4.2k resistor suggested, and sitting at 0.5 V
[16:51:47] <pcw_home> What is you gate supply?
[16:51:59] <awallin> can you rotate the motor by hand, see the hall-signals change, and wee the PWM pattern change?
[16:52:07] <awallin> see
[16:52:30] <andypugh> Yes, I can rotate the motor by hand. In some positions it twitches.
[16:52:39] <awallin> suggested PWM rate was 16-20 kHz IIRC for the IRAMS parts?
[16:53:14] <awallin> and turn off the interleaved(?) funny PWM from mesa which is meant for conversion to analog
[16:53:18] <andypugh> But the PWM pattern looks just as valid in the areas where the motor acts dead as where it twitches.
[16:53:58] <andypugh> Sorry, I haven't said yet, the PWM is not from a Mesa card.
[16:54:11] <awallin> ok
[16:54:18] <andypugh> I have a (much cheaper) Arduino producing the PWM.
[16:54:49] <andypugh> Though, it is my intention to run it from a Mesa card using the 3-phase PWM function.
[16:54:58] <pcw_home> You might try disconnecting the motor and powering VBUS from a safe voltage and checking the output PWMs
[16:55:32] <andypugh> pcw_home: I am running from 60V. There is (generally) no output PWM.
[16:56:07] <awallin> arduino sw problem is my guess then...
[16:57:13] <andypugh> I can scope a perfectly valid looking PWM on the input pins to the module, and see nothing on the output pins.
[16:57:15] <pcw_home> Your bootstrap voltage should be a volt or 2 below your gate supply (one diode drop from boostrap diode, a little more for low side IGBT VSat
[16:57:52] <awallin> andypugh: do you have a link to your IRAMS datasheet?
[16:58:09] <andypugh> http://docs-europe.origin.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0dca/0900766b80dca34e.pdf
[16:58:39] <andypugh> Where would I measure the bootstrap voltage? I have measured 15V across the bootstrap caps.
[16:59:02] <pcw_home> What your gate voltage?
[16:59:09] <andypugh> I should point out that the motor will turn, if I start if by hand.
[16:59:51] <andypugh> But it only turns slowly and stalls easily. When stalled I can see valid-looking gate drives and nothing on the output pins.
[17:00:17] <andypugh> pcw_home: I am afraid I don't even know what a gate voltage is :-/
[17:00:37] <awallin> V+ was 60V you said?
[17:00:37] <pcw_home> Sounds like it faulting when it has any load
[17:00:39] <pcw_home> (gate supply voltage)
[17:00:53] <andypugh> 15V?
[17:01:25] <pcw_home> Strange you should a least have a diode drop...
[17:01:32] <awallin> what is the arduino software supposed to do? keep a constant velocity?
[17:02:16] <awallin> is it possible the hall A,B,C signals do not match motor U,V,W ?
[17:03:04] <andypugh> awallin: Even then, I should get locked or vibrating motor, not one where the rotor moves freely for a fair fraction if a turn
[17:03:33] <awallin> and your PWM signal is not "small", i.e. 1% duty cycle or something?
[17:04:04] <andypugh> The arduino decides where the motor is, chooses which phases need to be used, and sends a PWM to one High-side and one low-side input.
[17:04:40] <awallin> yes
[17:04:52] <awallin> the PWM duty cycle then determines how much current you get
[17:05:01] <awallin> there should be a program setting for that probably
[17:05:07] <awallin> or you could scope it
[17:05:14] <andypugh> No, I have been running at 50% (and sometimes 100%, but you would expect the latter to not drive the bootstrap caps)
[17:05:38] <andypugh> Scope what?
[17:06:05] <awallin> well, when it starts working with 50% and if you have 60V on the DC buss you will certainly see the motor jump and the part heating up :)
[17:06:20] <andypugh> Anyway, I agree that it seems that the drive is faulting pretty much all the time. (Or that they simply don't work)
[17:06:28] <awallin> scope the PWM and check it is 50% from 0V to 5V and at 16kHz or something similar
[17:06:44] <andypugh> It is. The input PWM is good.
[17:06:57] <awallin> when I did my tests the dsPIC output was sinusoidal PWM
[17:07:00] <eric_unterhausen> this guy is doing something wrong, but I can't see what it is http://cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105271
[17:07:17] <awallin> so it was more or less driving all six PWM signals
[17:08:04] <andypugh> The Mesa card will do sinusoidal PWM, but I wanted to have some confidence in the drive before I wired it up.
[17:08:42] <awallin> so the arduino sw is driving the correct HI and LO PWM signals? not 1hi and 1lo simultaneously? :)
[17:09:14] <andypugh> I thought 1 high and one low was correct?
[17:09:42] <awallin> I'm not sure...
[17:10:30] <andypugh> Say HinU low, LinV low, all the others high, for current flow from U to V.
[17:10:49] <awallin> that sounds ok
[17:11:10] <pcw_home> Yes looks like IGBT module has same polarity on high and low inputs (active low)
[17:11:33] <andypugh> It certainly ought to apply current to the motor and produce torque, even if it is the wrong torque in the wrong place.
[17:13:03] <awallin> maybe it is faulting on overcurrent very fast. did you try 1% or 2% PWM?
[17:13:31] <andypugh> And the Atmel application note says that you don't need dead-time. (I think dead time would only be needed in trapezoidal commutation when swapping sectors anyway, and I don't actually think that any one phase ever swaps from +ve to -ve even then?
[17:14:00] <pcw_home> You scoped fault signal? I suspect missing deadzone
[17:14:11] <awallin> IIRC the driver IC inside the IRAMS handles the dead-time
[17:14:14] <andypugh> I have never seen more than 0.1A on the PSU display.
[17:14:41] <pcw_home> I would not trust a safety feature to replace a operation feature
[17:15:49] <andypugh> But no single phase ever swaps from High to Low without 60 degrees of "off" in the middle anyway?
[17:16:40] <awallin> what about a case when you are driving first full forward and then decide you want to go full backward?
[17:17:00] <pcw_home> you cant have 60 degrees of off or you lose bootstrap
[17:17:32] <awallin> the sine-commutation is maybe better (keeps bootstrap) ?
[17:17:41] <awallin> compared to a simpler 6-step commutation?
[17:17:54] <pcw_home> Yes and less "ticky"
[17:18:39] <andypugh> I seem to keep bootstrap on all phases even when stationary.
[17:19:00] <andypugh> (As long as there is some PWM).
[17:19:14] <andypugh> I think the driver handles that.
[17:19:34] <andypugh> Not that I can check until tuesday now.
[17:20:01] <pcw_home> the output has to switch low (bottom IGBT on) to recharge bootrap cap
[17:21:19] <andypugh> Why would the cap discharge on an inactive phase?
[17:22:49] <pcw_home> look at how the bootstrap diode connects. it needs the output to go to close to 0V to charge the bootstrap cap from VDD
[17:25:10] <andypugh> But won't the cap hold charge during an inactive phase
[17:25:33] <pcw_home> For a while...
[17:26:16] <andypugh> Certainly something to look at, when the components arrive for another attempt, if I can face it.
[17:27:00] <andypugh> I could just throw it all in a box and move on. I don't actually need these motors for anything.
[17:28:02] <pcw_home> Even at 60V you should be able to get full torque from your motors up to a few 100 RPM
[17:29:08] <andypugh> Yes, and I actually seemed to have full torque with the previous iteration at 30V before the driver (the 6A version) blew up.
[17:29:26] <andypugh> However, the big problem was no self-starting.
[17:30:19] <andypugh> A servo that won't start from rest is little use.
[17:31:12] <andypugh> (Actually, that 30V full-torque might have been with the commercial drive, now I think about it)
[17:31:52] <pcw_home> Weve run lots of 320V motors with our 7I39 at 40 or 50V
[17:31:54] <pcw_home> With sine wave you couls also try the thump start method
[17:31:55] <pcw_home> (apparently this is often used with linear motors as they often have nothing but an encoder)
[17:33:36] <andypugh> I can't see quite how to manage any sort of motor-boot in HAL. I suspect that any attempts will trip F-errors
[17:33:59] <andypugh> But that is a bridge to cross if and when I get to it.
[17:35:11] <andypugh> I guess there is no reason that a HAL component can't be a two-state thing, which runs an initialisation for the first few dozen servo threads.
[17:35:49] <pcw_home> Why dont I send you a 7I39 or 2 to mess with
[17:35:50] <pcw_home> (with thump start in voltage mode you need to know the motor resistance and VBUS so
[17:35:52] <pcw_home> you can calculate the PWM to set a approximate current)
[17:44:11] <tvc> How about this one guys? I don't want to use the wizard, hes not helping, where do I find info on the INI file? for instance what [TRAJ] section is for and what it means to define 4 vs 3 axis there?
[17:45:35] <SWPadnos> tvc, the integrators manual should have all (or at least most) of that kind of information
[17:46:13] <tvc> can you link me please?
[17:46:18] <SWPadnos> also this page: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.4/html/config_ini_config.html
[17:46:24] <SWPadnos> the manual is installed with EMC2
[17:46:30] <SWPadnos> under Applications->CNC
[17:46:56] <andypugh> pcw_home: A 7i39 might make things a lot easier, as most of the point of what I am doing is to get EMC working with that card.
[17:47:59] <tvc> ok thanks I will take a look there
[17:48:44] <andypugh> (Incidentally, I just shorted out the surge arrestor, and the bootstrap caps hit 14.22V for a 14.99 volt Vdd as soon as the 15V supply is turned on, I think there must be a specific bootstrap cap charging circuit in the driver)
[17:48:48] <SWPadnos> the integrators manual may no be called the installation manual or similar
[17:49:06] <SWPadnos> *now
[17:51:23] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[17:58:14] <tvc> finally TVC makes progress!! woo for me :)
[17:59:02] <andypugh> HAL is where the real fun is :-)
[17:59:14] <pcw_home> if the outputs are at 0(low side on), then the bootstrap capacitor will charge
[18:01:48] <andypugh> I just repeated it with the logic connector unplugged (so all gate drive inputs inactive) and the caps still immediately charged to 15V
[18:03:11] <pcw_home> what are the output states?
[18:03:20] <andypugh> (This was a multimeter between the capacitor legs, with no V+. I am not sure if that is a meaningful test)
[18:04:19] <pcw_home> With no V+ it will happen because the outpust will be forced near ground by the flyback diodes
[18:04:32] <andypugh> Should I be able to test output states with a multimeter, ie will a multimeter see continuity to V+ or 0V?
[18:04:59] <andypugh> Right, so I need to repeat the test with V+ on first, then the 15V?
[18:06:06] <pcw_home> theres a fair voltage drop in IGBTs so I'm not sure what a meter will show
[18:07:39] <pcw_home> easiest way to check the output states is with V+ applied (24V or something safe) and checking the output voltages with a scope
[18:07:50] <pcw_home> (and no motor)
[18:08:57] <tvc> Yes, I'm not HAL now and it's beating me with a stick...
[18:10:06] <andypugh> Yes, but we have already seen that I can't see anything on the outputs most of the time...
[18:11:35] <andypugh> Anyway, I have started blowing fuses. I think that the surge-arrestor death might have been evidence of something terminal happening to the drive module.
[18:11:43] <pcw_home> did you try without the motor?
[18:11:55] <andypugh> This was without the motor.
[18:13:43] <andypugh> I soldered the legs of the dead surge-arrestor together, so there is still a chance that it might be OK.
[18:14:47] <pcw_home> It may be pretty difficult to breadboard due to the ~50 nS switching speeds (DI/DT page 11 of the data sheet)
[18:14:49] <andypugh> Let me re-configure to run off the bench pSU.
[18:16:13] <andypugh> I am running on proto-board, rather than plugboard. I would have thought that was a lot like a PCB?
[18:20:43] <tvc> Any takers on what the command line error "MKII_XZC.hal:63: parameter or pin 'stepgen.5.position-scale' not found" means?
[18:22:48] <SWPadnos> it means that there is no parameter or pin called "stepgen.5.position-scale", and that you need to look at line 63 of the file MKII_XZC.hal" to see what to do about it
[18:23:53] <SWPadnos> more likely is that (a) you have 5 stepgens, but you called them 1-5 instead of 0-4, or (b) you haven't told stepgen to create 5 step generators (maybe you have the default of 3)
[18:25:55] <tvc> it has to be (b)
[18:26:19] <tvc> Do I do that even if I am not controlling anything?
[18:27:14] <tvc> bam that was it! Thanks!
[18:28:30] <tvc> Now all I need to do is figure out how to get the speed up on my C...
[18:30:27] <pcw_home> Well 50 nS power switching times make for nice inductive spikes everywhere
[18:30:29] <pcw_home> We're paranoid about such things here from sad experience
[18:30:31] <pcw_home>
[18:34:19] <andypugh> I have found that there is 0.2 ohms resistance on the multimeter between V+ and Gnd on the driver. That's probably not a good sign.
[18:35:43] <andypugh> It seems likely that the death of the surge suppressor was a symptom of the death of the driver IC>
[18:36:03] <pcw_home> No, thats never a good sign on power modules...
[18:36:47] <andypugh> I have one left, RS accidentally sent me two replacements for the mis-supplied part. I was going to return the extra. I might not now.
[18:39:37] <pcw_home> You may have killed it when poking about, maybe best to verify operation at 15V or so
[18:39:38] <pcw_home> Then if you short anything out its much less likely to fry something
[18:39:58] <twice2> hiya, ne1 know why Axis touch off dialog say's 'can't open file' ?
[18:40:28] <andypugh> I think I killed it shorting an input pin to earth, trying to see if a really, really, solid 0V persuaded it to drive an output.
[18:41:27] <andypugh> twice2: You mean the normal touch-off button?
[18:41:48] <twice2> yep, 2.4
[18:42:08] <andypugh> Ah, did you upgrade to 2.4 without updating the tool table?
[18:43:25] <andypugh> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?UPDATING#Changes_between_2_3_x_and_2_4_x
[18:43:33] <twice2> prob, don't use it tho. Touch off works fine with one file in my project but none of the larger ones...
[18:43:37] <andypugh> Says that the tool table should automatically update though.
[18:44:40] <andypugh> Does it say which file it can't open?
[18:45:09] <twice2> the 'Ok' button gets greyed out and the dialog say's 'can't open file' ,,, wonder which file?
[18:46:07] <frallzor> hmm got some small pieces of cherry wood left, what to make? =)
[18:46:15] <twice2> thought i followed the upgrade instructions, deleting the nml line from my config
[18:46:23] <andypugh> I can see that Touch-off might write to the tool table or the parameter file, but those should both be there.
[18:47:51] <twice2> yep, it's weird deal. In order to touch off I have to open my roughing ngc
[18:48:36] <andypugh> That part makes it all the wierder.
[18:49:07] <andypugh> I am going to hold my hands up to not having a clue, and hope a dev pops up.
[18:49:46] <twice2> k, thanks fer braining it :)
[18:54:21] <micges> twice2: this is doing when you have loaded file?
[18:54:38] <twice2> yes
[18:55:36] <micges> try starting emc from console, do the thing that leads to this error and see output in console for errors
[18:56:18] <twice2> good idea, walking to shop....
[19:12:11] <twice2> EMC2 - 2.4.0
[19:12:13] <twice2> Machine configuration directory is '/home/mic/emc2/configs/my-mill'
[19:12:14] <twice2> Machine configuration file is 'my-mill.ini'
[19:12:16] <twice2> Starting EMC2...
[19:12:17] <twice2> Unrecognized line skipped: POCKET FMS LENGTH DIAMETER COMMENT
[19:12:18] <twice2> INFO CLASSICLADDER- No ladder GUI requested-Realtime runs till HAL closes.
[19:13:47] <twice2> so does that mean the tool table is hosed?
[19:14:13] <awallin> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/gcode_tool_compensation.html#r1_2
[19:14:15] <awallin> rtfm
[19:14:19] <micges> twice2: next time paste it to pastebin.com, try this again but before set all debug option enable (machine->debug)
[19:16:07] <twice2> micges:i don't understand all that
[19:18:18] <twice2> my ini has debug = 0, so what's a good number?
[19:18:49] <micges> twice2: there is no valuable info in console, so try run it from console again, but before this set [EMC]DEBUG = 0x7FFFFFFF
[19:19:14] <micges> and paste console output to pastebin.com
[19:26:31] <tvc> Is it possible to set different increments w/ different axis?
[19:29:02] <andypugh> For jogging? Not as far as I know.
[19:29:14] <twice2> http://pastebin.com/JAGfmajt
[19:29:47] <frallzor> * frallzor is frustrated with artcam
[19:32:25] <twice2> here is the picture: http://imagebin.ca/view/UY1Akj.html
[19:32:29] <tvc> Looks like you can mix units in the increment section
[19:32:37] <micges> twice2: there was error message this time?
[19:33:23] <twice2> yes, i took a picture of the error and terminal output
[19:33:55] <andypugh> The error message is inside the touch-off dialog, which seems very strange indeed.
[19:34:06] <micges> it seems so
[19:34:48] <tvc> but it only like certain units... :(
[19:36:15] <andypugh> tvc: Is the problem that the rotary and linear axes move at speeds that are too different?
[19:37:13] <tvc> No, I'm trying to calibrate my rotary axis, and I have no idea on what I am telling it to move, I only know what it does move. Axis tells me it moves in inches...
[19:37:44] <andypugh> Is that not right :-?
[19:40:20] <tvc> No rotation moves in degrees :)
[19:40:27] <andypugh> What is the TYPE= line for that axis in the INI file? TRAJ defines linear and angula units, then each axis is given a linear or ANGULAR type.
[19:40:28] <tvc> or radians
[19:40:54] <tvc> Axis is defined as angular
[19:41:06] <tvc> TRAJ defines as degrees
[19:41:09] <andypugh> Odd, then.
[19:41:18] <eric_unterhausen> nickserv tells me my nick is registered, is there a way to check?
[19:41:25] <eric_unterhausen> eric_unterhausen is now known as EricKeller
[19:41:29] <tvc> But to jog, I have continuous or inches.
[19:42:11] <andypugh> It jogs in axis-units I think.
[19:42:16] <tvc> So i did some math and figured when it was moving 0.1 inches, it was approximately 5 degrees, wait I have a math erro :)
[19:42:38] <micges> twice2: error message show right after touch off window pops up?
[19:43:22] <andypugh> You can't convert between angle and distance without knowing radius. I am not sure EMC even tries.
[19:43:45] <twice2> no, it's shows as soon as I put in value for touch off. Ok button grey out and 'unable to open file' show up
[19:46:52] <twice2> micges: it's almost as if I were giving invalid input
[19:47:14] <micges> twice2: yes, I think I've located it
[19:47:24] <micges> you have emc from packages?
[19:48:02] <twice2> micges: synAPTicz
[19:48:18] <micges> 2.4?
[19:48:29] <twice2> micges: yes sir
[19:53:48] <tvc> ok so I have cal'ed it close enough so that when I tell it to move 0.1" it moves very close to that, however degrees make no sense.
[19:54:50] <twice2> brb
[19:55:09] <tvc> also in the preview the units are in inches.
[19:55:16] <andypugh> Does the system know how many step pulses there are per rv?
[19:55:23] <tvc> well, they are unlabled.
[19:55:49] <tvc> let me check, that should be setup as a scale in the INI right?
[19:59:33] <andypugh> Yes
[20:00:58] <micges> twice2: run terminal. type 'sudo gedit /usr/bin/axis'
[20:04:39] <micges> goto line 2280, and put line 'print canon.parameter_file, result, v' (without '), save it, change [emc]debug=0, run Axis again and pastebin console output
[20:04:40] <SWPadnos> tvc, look at one of the example configs with rotary axes. I think you may need TYPE=ANGULAR or something
[20:04:43] <SWPadnos> bbl
[20:05:34] <tvc> Thanks SWPadnos, will do.
[20:08:07] <tvc> andypugh the math tells me i have 453.3 steps per degree, if my units all match up I should be good to go, let me try that number in there for SCALE
[20:09:18] <andypugh> I can't remember if angular axes are in steps per degree or steps per rev.
[20:10:44] <tvc> ok here is what happens: Jog says 43 deg/min, and it is going way faster, the preview says it went 3.3 while I'm actually at 90, it took may 2 seconds to get to 90...
[20:11:43] <tvc> the integers manual defines SCALE as steps/inch, I take inch to be "unit" so I should be able to sub in degrees.
[20:12:14] <JT-Hardinge> tvc where does it say steps/inch?
[20:12:23] <micges> tvc: steps per deg
[20:12:56] <tvc> JT-Hardinge page 19..
[20:13:11] <tvc> section
[20:13:20] <JT-Hardinge> of the pdf one?
[20:13:25] <tvc> yes
[20:13:38] <JT-Hardinge> thanks
[20:13:50] <SWPadnos> andypugh, steps per unit. if units are degrees, then it's steps/degree
[20:13:55] <SWPadnos> now I'm really out of here :)
[20:14:08] <SWPadnos> tvc, oh, and change the UNITS too
[20:14:54] <tvc> to degrees right? gotcha, did that no worky, at lest correctly
[20:15:00] <JT-Hardinge> ok, it has steps/inch in an inch example
[20:15:22] <tvc> yes
[20:15:31] <KimK> andypugh: I made it back here this afternoon (evening for you?). I read back, sorry you're still having difficulty. Do you have any ideas? Or avenues to pursue?
[20:16:13] <andypugh> Not now, I have 4 blown parts, not counting fuses and including the driver module itself.
[20:16:28] <JT-Hardinge> I need to clear up the angular part of scale a bit I see
[20:17:19] <twice2> micges: ok, have it
[20:18:23] <micges> twice2: remeber to put 12x space before line I described
[20:20:22] <andypugh> I can't say I really approve of whitespace being important.
[20:20:33] <tvc> if I work through it all as the example put it, I have 8 steps (1/8 hardware stepping) per 1.8 degree on my stepper times 360 deg /rev times 2 revs/degree, perhaps that 2 revs is what is throwing me off.
[20:20:48] <tvc> That does not make sense now that I have typed it out...
[20:21:44] <andypugh> 4.4444 steps per (motor) degree. What's the belt ratio?
[20:22:30] <tvc> 17:60
[20:23:37] <andypugh> 15.6863 steps per degree, I get.
[20:24:17] <tvc> 15.6911 yeah that check out to what I really have now :P
[20:26:11] <twice2> micges:http://pastebin.com/RKs79YZM
[20:28:41] <twice2> micges: the new output occurs when 'unable to open file' shows up
[20:29:04] <micges> twice2: yes it should
[20:33:41] <andypugh> The normal output in that area of the dialog is what the expression in the box evaluates as, isn't it?
[20:34:42] <micges> yep
[20:43:30] <andypugh> Does that mean is scans emc.var looking to see if you have typed in any parameter numbers as you type?
[20:45:40] <twice2> what if I delete emc.var?
[20:45:51] <micges> no no
[20:46:33] <andypugh> My first thought would be that is trying to work with a temp copy of emc.var that hasn't been created?
[20:46:37] <micges> this errors means that interpreter can't open some file during processing entry value
[20:47:22] <twice2> but only on certain ngc files
[20:47:33] <micges> those files are: gcode file, var file, table file
[20:48:10] <micges> twice2: so this means that this error don't show up on every touchoff on every file?
[20:49:04] <twice2> error shows on some gcode files but not others.
[20:49:58] <micges> oh :) I should ask this first :) undo change you've done and pastebin one good and one bad file you have
[20:57:02] <andypugh> It makes no obvious sense for the G-code file to have an effect at all. I am agog to find out what this one is.
[20:58:13] <micges> yes but making preview in Axis is very complex simulation that uses interpreter in not obvious way
[20:58:50] <twice2> with debug=0 there is no difference in the terminal output between gcode that gives error and not
[21:00:59] <twice2> as soon as I try to change the 0.0 in the input box the error shows up
[21:04:20] <micges> in meantime pastebin both files please
[21:04:25] <twice2> sorry, i was wrong http://pastebin.com/UQtnnhJh
[21:05:33] <twice2> i input same value for same axis in touch off
[21:06:05] <micges> 5 and 1 are status of interpreter, 5 means error, 1 means ok
[21:06:48] <twice2> then 5 means 'unable to open file' ?
[21:07:38] <micges> 5 means other error
[21:11:41] <twice2> the code that checks the input is outputting 'unable to open file' for some reason
[21:13:46] <micges> try standard sim config with buggy file if it will be same error
[21:18:26] <JT-Hardinge> micges: is there any way to show on the status bar if any offsets are in effect?
[21:19:02] <twice2> i think it's something with post processor. sherline.inch works sherline_arc_inch gives error
[21:19:27] <micges> twice2: sim/axis_mm
[21:20:09] <micges> JT-Hardinge: tool offsets?
[21:20:37] <JT-Hardinge> actually if a tool offset is in effect or a fixture offset
[21:21:12] <micges> JT-Hardinge: besides hacking Axis nope
[21:21:44] <micges> use emctop to see offsets
[21:21:57] <JT-Hardinge> * JT-Hardinge gets out his hacker stick
[21:22:21] <JT-Hardinge> axis shows the tool loaded but not if the offset is in effect...
[21:22:47] <twice2> micges: sim axis_mm crashes
[21:23:24] <micges> what's mean crashes?
[21:23:53] <micges> JT-Hardinge: yes it only shows offsets of loaded tool
[21:24:20] <twice2> http://pastebin.com/eqM6cadr
[21:24:26] <micges> that doesn't means that they are current loaded offsets
[21:25:48] <micges> twice2: finally some tracks
[21:25:49] <JT-Hardinge> yea, I know it fooled me once :/
[21:26:30] <micges> twice2: I can't test it in emc from package now, maybe someone take it from now
[21:26:49] <micges> if not I'll test it tommorow at work on rt machine
[21:27:11] <twice2> Ok, thank you for helps
[21:27:28] <micges> twice2: thanks for helping debugging
[21:33:04] <JT-Hardinge> twice2: I just ran sim axis_mm on my plasma cutter fine... did it not load for you or a g code file crashed it?
[21:36:55] <twice2> would not load for me
[21:38:41] <JT-Hardinge> is your latency real high on that computer?
[21:39:04] <JT-Hardinge> but that should not matter for a sim config
[21:40:01] <micges> JT-Hardinge: it seems that it's package problem
[21:40:19] <micges> JT-Hardinge: can you install 2.4.0 from package and run sim_mm config?
[21:41:12] <JT-Hardinge> I have 2.4 installed on this computer
[21:41:47] <JT-Hardinge> but I'm running some parts atm
[21:42:00] <JT-Hardinge> the plasma is rip
[21:44:53] <micges> ok
[21:45:47] <JT-Hardinge> as soon as I finish this run of parts I'll try it out
[21:49:04] <micges> cool
[21:51:08] <twice2> micges:I removed '%' from start and end of gcode and no more error in touch off
[21:51:35] <micges> er, huh?!
[21:52:01] <micges> very strange
[21:52:11] <alex_joni> did you also have an M2 in there?
[21:52:14] <twice2> yep, one post processor (arcs) puts '%'
[21:53:18] <twice2> alex_joni:no
[21:53:22] <JT-Hardinge> axis mm sim 2.4 installed runs fine on this install
[21:54:58] <micges> JT-Hardinge: twice2 found error
[21:57:44] <JT-Hardinge> ok
[22:22:01] <sliptonic_shop> I've got a logitech joypad that I use as a remote pendant. It has an unused button which hal configuration shows as input.0.btn-base3.
[22:22:17] <sliptonic_shop> I just upgraded to 2.4.0 and I'd like to use it to toggle the axis manual mode.
[22:22:40] <sliptonic_shop> Can someone tell me how I need to edit the postgui hal file?
[22:23:13] <JT-Hardinge> you might do something like this
[22:24:38] <JT-Hardinge> well I have to think on that a second inbetween parts
[22:24:51] <sliptonic_shop> I know it has something to do with axisui.set-manual-mode
[22:25:24] <sliptonic_shop> (I saw that in the channel archive)
[22:26:03] <JT-Hardinge> it might be as simple as
[22:26:29] <JT-Hardinge> net remote-manual asisui.set-manual <= input.0.btn-base3
[22:26:30] <micges> sliptonic_shop: add this: net set-manual input.0.btn-base3 => axisui.set-manual-mode
[22:26:42] <JT-Hardinge> LOL
[22:27:09] <micges> asis :D
[22:28:13] <sliptonic_shop> Yep. That's it. I was so close. I've just never been able to get my head around hal configuration. Thanks JT-Hardinge.
[22:28:36] <JT-Hardinge> I was only 1 second faster than micges :)
[22:29:06] <JT-Hardinge> sliptonic_shop: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html//hal_basic_hal.html
[22:29:59] <sliptonic_shop> Cool. I'll give it another go.
[22:30:09] <andypugh> the main thing to realise about HAL is that the first item in a net command can be any collection of words you fancy using. Then as long as the rest of the line has only one "source" item you can have as many "recievers" as you like, and it just works. The => thing is just for humans to read.
[22:31:05] <micges> yep that it
[22:31:10] <micges> that's
[22:31:59] <andypugh> Do all the example files still use newsig and linksp?
[22:32:01] <sliptonic_shop> So why didn't this work: net axis-toggle axisui.set-manual-mode <=input.0.btn-base3
[22:32:33] <micges> add space after <=
[22:32:41] <sliptonic_shop> AAARRGG!
[22:32:49] <micges> very important
[22:33:22] <sliptonic_shop> Excuse me while I go glue my hair back on.
[22:33:54] <micges> :D
[22:34:09] <JT-Hardinge> just let it grow back
[22:34:58] <andypugh> You should have seen a message in the error listing "can't find pin or signal called "<=input.0.btn-base3"
[22:36:50] <micges> nope, it will be silently ignored
[22:36:55] <sliptonic_shop> I didn't get an error listing. Axis launched o.k.
[22:37:47] <micges> I think it should be some warning
[22:37:55] <andypugh> I am sure that duff HAL config normally prevents launch?
[22:38:23] <andypugh> (I have made so many duff configs)
[22:38:44] <micges> andypugh: halcmd will ignore => and any sign until space
[22:38:52] <sliptonic_shop> Here's what Hal Config shows with the bogus line: http://www.imagebanana.com/img/8bhb64x/screenshot_027.png
[22:39:32] <andypugh> Ah, it parses any string _beginning_ with => as an =>? That seems like a flaw
[22:39:58] <micges> yes it should be fixed
[22:40:06] <micges> good night all
[22:40:12] <andypugh> Goodnight.
[22:40:15] <sliptonic_shop> Thanks again gents.
[22:41:07] <andypugh> sliptonic_shop: Yes, it net-ed the axis-manual pin to the named signal, then skipped what it assumed was a "<=" and didn't find anything else on the line...
[22:59:35] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away