#emc | Logs for 2010-05-07

[00:02:38] <pfred1> downloading it told me no more than before i started: -rw-r--r-- 1 pfred1 pfred1 6915678 2003-06-02 15:03 CoolCnc208Demo_Setup.exe
[00:14:48] <Valen> anybody here know much about using both linear scales and motor encoders?
[00:15:15] <Jymmm> linear glass scales?
[00:15:43] <Valen> yeah, we are using them now for servo feedback but it looks like we still have some backlash in the system
[00:16:04] <Valen> on most of our axies its not really noticable but on Z its enough for the motor to wind up some speed
[00:16:13] <Jymmm> Previous discussions say that they can't be used for the speed that most CNC's move.
[00:16:26] <Valen> they seem to work fine in that regard
[00:16:45] <Valen> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?JakeAndRussells is our machine
[00:16:53] <Valen> I've had it running at 6 meters a minute
[00:17:13] <Valen> well faster even, but thats what I have the limit set at currently
[00:17:13] <Jymmm> I'm not arguing, I'm just telling you what has been discussed in the past.
[00:17:56] <Jymmm> you cna probably search the longs from 2 years ago
[00:18:01] <Jymmm> for the details.
[00:18:05] <Jymmm> logs
[00:18:22] <Valen> the part i'm interested in is how to integrate the 2 signals
[00:18:37] <Valen> I know it has been done, but by somebody with far more ability in HAL than I
[00:21:42] <Valen> using the motor encoders for velocity feedback and the scales for position
[00:21:46] <PCW> I think one trick is to get the PIDs P and D terms from the rotary encoder and the I term from the linear scale
[00:22:23] <Valen> that would probably do it fairly nicley
[00:22:49] <Valen> might be an idea to perhaps sum two PID loops
[00:23:32] <Valen> so you can still get a high correction speed without a large I causing oscilation
[00:23:39] <pfred1> Valen all of this must be why I'm going open loop
[00:24:02] <Valen> trading dealing with an error to not knowing it exists huh ;->
[00:24:29] <pfred1> Valen in my application if I say its right then its right
[00:25:07] <andypugh> Valen, I suspect that is the way to do it. Sum 2 PID loops, one with 0 I term and one with 0 P and D terms
[00:26:19] <Valen> well lesse, the problem I have is the motor builds up speed running through the backlash in the system, I think its mainly due to everything bending getting over static friction
[00:27:07] <pfred1> Valen acceleration?
[00:27:35] <Valen> pretty low but the problem is the motor is moving but the scale isnt changing
[00:27:46] <dareposte> andypugh: getting the error "Sim-encoder.update-speed' needs FP
[00:27:49] <pfred1> Valen stepper?
[00:27:49] <dareposte> ??
[00:28:21] <Valen> so as the error term P gets bigger it gets more speed until it comes out of backlash and then the motor is really hiking and it overshoots
[00:28:46] <andypugh> dareposte: You need to move the update-speed function to the serve thread. You are not allowed FP maths in the base thread
[00:28:56] <Valen> pfred1 if I used motor encoders it wouldn't do that either, but then I wouldn't know what the actual error was
[00:29:49] <pfred1> Valen you don't have any measuring instruments?
[00:30:26] <Valen> look, go have fun with your steppers, I'm trying to solve a problem
[00:30:59] <pfred1> Valen you don't appear to be
[00:31:28] <Valen> the problem is exacerbated on the Z axis as there is an 11:1 gear reduction, so the motor can build a decent amount of inertia
[00:33:04] <Jymmm> 11:1 ?! JEEBUS
[00:33:15] <Valen> Jymmm it was conveniant
[00:33:30] <Valen> the scooter the motors come off have that reduction ;->
[00:33:44] <dareposte> andypugh: thanks, added it to servo thread
[00:33:51] <Jymmm> Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
[00:34:13] <Valen> its the difference between getting it working in 25 minutes and 3 weeks
[00:34:28] <dareposte> so I think I have the sim-encoder set up right, how should I hook it to motion.spindle-speed-out?
[00:34:30] <Valen> and whats the big issue with that ratio anyway?
[00:35:08] <dareposte> I tried net motion.spindle-speed-out => sim-encoder.0.speed
[00:35:36] <andypugh> You need to make up a signal name to put that the beginning
[00:35:55] <andypugh> something like net enc-in motion.spind.......
[00:36:36] <dareposte> i have net spindle-phase-a sim-encoder.0.phase-A, etc
[00:37:22] <andypugh> The net syntax is net <signal name> <pin 1> <pin2>....
[00:37:36] <dareposte> sry i'm not so great at HAL
[00:37:41] <Valen> Jymmm?
[00:38:23] <andypugh> You make up the signal names to describe the signal, then one source pin and as many destination pins as you need to conect
[00:38:56] <dareposte> so whats the => and <= and <=>
[00:39:09] <andypugh> Just for humans to read
[00:39:27] <dareposte> so hal doesn't care about them?
[00:39:41] <andypugh> NO
[00:41:36] <dareposte> all right i just added the sim-encoder.0.speed on the end of the spindle-cmd signal and it booted
[00:43:16] <dareposte> still not working though
[00:44:24] <andypugh> The spindle-phase-a Stuff you mentioned earlier doesn't actually connect anything, the signal names are also for human convenience.
[00:45:38] <andypugh> You need to wire encoder.0.velocity to motion,spindle-speed-in
[00:46:51] <andypugh> and encoder.00.position to motion.spindle-revs
[00:47:22] <andypugh> That should do it. (And I am sure those signal names are not actually right)
[00:47:51] <andypugh> Look in Machine -> Show HAL config for the actual signal names.
[00:50:08] <dareposte> wired encoder.0.velocity to motion.spindle-speed-in
[00:50:56] <dareposte> both those are wired
[00:51:04] <dareposte> should it be sim-encoder.0....?
[00:51:31] <andypugh> I don't know. What does the documetation page call it?
[00:52:02] <dareposte> your signal names were correct
[00:52:11] <dareposte> and i had already added them
[00:52:35] <dareposte> but its still getting the spindle-velocity parameter from the spindle commanded one
[00:52:36] <andypugh> No, it should be sim-encoder I htink
[00:53:23] <dareposte> sim-encoder doesn't have a velocity or position, it does have a speed
[00:53:35] <andypugh> Can you pastebin your hal file, I have no idea what you have now.
[00:53:46] <andypugh> (www.pastebin.org)
[00:53:49] <dareposte> um yeah its on the other machine just a sec
[00:57:22] <dareposte> http://www.pastebin.ca/1871648
[00:59:49] <andypugh> Do you have an actual encoder anywhere?
[01:00:00] <dareposte> no
[01:00:10] <dareposte> well hal's not supposed to know i do
[01:01:12] <dareposte> i do have a real encoder its just not hooked to the spindle, and its not hooked up to the parport or EMC
[01:01:19] <dareposte> so I'm leaving it off for now
[01:01:35] <andypugh> Try http://www.pastebin.ca/1871649
[01:03:27] <dareposte> error, sim-encoder.position does not exist
[01:03:50] <dareposte> line 41
[01:05:13] <andypugh> Ah! I am being daft
[01:05:59] <andypugh> sim-encoder produces encoder pulses....
[01:06:08] <andypugh> Bear with me
[01:06:18] <dareposte> i really appreciate the help
[01:06:58] <dareposte> if I change the sim-encoder... lines to encoder.0.... lines, it boots AXIS but the program still wont run properly on the CSS
[01:07:43] <dareposte> my "spindle velocity" parameter in HAL sits at 0, which I think might be the problem
[01:07:59] <dareposte> its linked to encoder.0.velocity and motion.spindle-speed-in
[01:11:48] <andypugh> http://www.pastebin.ca/1871652
[01:17:04] <dareposte> parameter or pin 'encoder.0.ppr' not found
[01:17:19] <dareposte> line 43
[01:21:58] <dareposte> oh heck yeah
[01:22:01] <dareposte> yes yes
[01:22:07] <dareposte> i took that line 43 out and its running
[01:24:37] <dareposte> well sort of running
[01:25:09] <dareposte> it's definitely showing some CSS, when I G96S500 and jog around, the spindle speeds up and slows down but not as expected
[01:25:26] <dareposte> it runs at slowest speed except for about a 1" area where it runs a bit faster
[01:31:19] <dareposte> ok its definitely working awesome
[01:31:24] <dareposte> andypugh: thanks a ton man
[01:32:10] <andypugh> No problem, I am staying up watching the election results
[01:34:05] <andypugh> You will need to sort out the sim-encoder ppr and the encoder scale so that it actually gets the speed right.
[01:36:52] <dareposte> i think u got it for me already
[01:36:56] <dareposte> i tached it at the right speed
[01:37:04] <dareposte> its throwing chips on me right now, cutting great
[01:37:39] <dareposte> thank you so much for your help, it was huge
[01:40:45] <andypugh> I learned a fair bit myself.
[01:44:32] <dareposte> it may have a small problem on the feed per rev, the finish pass looks like I threaded it, but that could be my code too
[01:46:58] <dareposte> looks like I left out a G96, and just put S300, so it interpreted as 300RPM not 300 SFM
[01:47:42] <andypugh> That will do it
[01:48:01] <andypugh> Aluminium I guess, at that speed?
[01:49:14] <dareposte> no 11L17
[01:49:29] <dareposte> its a small lathe
[01:49:42] <dareposte> actually making a new bolt for my rifle
[01:50:32] <andypugh> 11L17?
[01:50:38] <dareposte> yeah easy cutting steel
[01:50:43] <dareposte> leaded and rephosphorized i think
[01:50:54] <andypugh> Still very high SFM for steel.
[01:51:01] <ds3> is 11L17 much stronger then 12L14?
[01:51:02] <dareposte> nah not for carbide
[01:51:09] <dareposte> similar to 12L14
[01:51:42] <dareposte> i've been doing a finish pass at 500sfm to get the best finish, but i'm limited to 0.008" depth on a pass like that with this thing
[01:52:00] <andypugh> No, you are right.
[01:52:02] <andypugh> http://www.sumicarbide.com/pdf/turn/TB_RecRun_CCC.pdf
[01:52:18] <ds3> can your lathe actually do 500sfm for small dia parts?
[01:53:20] <andypugh> I work in metric and got the conversion wrong.
[01:53:35] <dareposte> no it maxes out under about 1/2"
[01:53:48] <dareposte> mine runs to 1850 or so
[01:53:50] <dareposte> rpm
[01:58:12] <ds3> what's the metric version of sfm?
[01:58:22] <ds3> smm?
[01:59:53] <dareposte> m/m
[01:59:54] <dareposte> m/min
[02:07:19] <pfred1> carbide is for the big dogs
[02:10:08] <ds3> I find carbide great for small machines
[02:12:20] <Dave911> If you have enough spindle hp, carbide is really nice...
[02:13:06] <Dave911> I've been working with a big lathe that can make 2-300 lbs of chips on one cutter edge at high speeds with carbide ...
[02:13:27] <ds3> what I like about carbide is that it tolerates very high spindle speeds
[02:14:01] <ds3> and on small machines with DC motors, if I turn down the speed with a speed controller, I loose power so I run carbide at near the max speed to get me more effective power
[02:14:05] <Dave911> Yep, and the surface can get really nice ....
[02:14:37] <Dave911> Makes sense .. max hp
[02:14:37] <ds3> don't need that high HP... I can't take a large chip to start with
[02:15:00] <ds3> at the higher speeds, HSS tooling changes color on me
[02:15:59] <Calfin> no gear change on the lathe?
[02:16:25] <Dave911> I don't even know how fast you can run HSS in steel. I know that we just push carbide until the chips get blue and then back off a bit.. so they last and that is with flood coolant..
[02:16:34] <ds3> well, the small Taig/sherlines have no gears; the 7x10/7x12/7x14's have 1 gear for high and low + a speed controller
[02:16:56] <Calfin> I like HSS for the nice top rake that works well for mild steel.
[02:17:13] <ds3> so for the 7xX's, low gear for max torque and max out the speed controller
[02:17:31] <dareposte> carbide works great for me
[02:18:16] <Calfin> Ahh, without a gearbox, one must be clever
[02:18:33] <pfred1> ds3 carbide needs the rigidity of big machines or it fractures
[02:18:47] <Calfin> that's my experience
[02:19:07] <pfred1> sure yo ucan run it in the mickey mouse stuff but you're not really
[02:19:14] <Calfin> I have lots of inserts with cracked off cutting edges ;-)
[02:19:19] <ds3> pfred1: I been lucky then... the only issue I had was the wrong grade of carbide slowly pitting away with steel
[02:19:20] <Dave911> HSS is actually not inexpensive considering how long it lasts...
[02:19:48] <pfred1> HSS gets a lot sharper and is a lot easier to sharpen than carbide
[02:19:59] <Dave911> Vibration at the cutter tips kills carbide....
[02:20:02] <Calfin> Some of my HSS tools are 20 years old. Still sharp, and I do use them ;-)
[02:20:10] <ds3> I did chicken out when I had to turn a square peice round and used HSS for that pounding interrupted cut
[02:20:37] <Calfin> there is a C grade for that too
[02:20:57] <pfred1> yeah theres tons of different carbides some work better in smallish machines than others
[02:21:17] <pfred1> pitting is usually a grading issue too
[02:21:27] <ds3> yes it is, I found out afterwards
[02:21:52] <ds3> these were brazed carbide that enco sells cheap... turns out I used the wrong one
[02:22:26] <Calfin> mostly I like the Carbide holder for the nifty chip breakers they often include. Though I have a HSS "special configuration" that will curl the softest materials.
[02:22:32] <pfred1> but overall small machine don't even bother with carbide
[02:22:46] <pfred1> I mean why? whats the advantage with it?
[02:23:02] <Calfin> TanTung is a good choice instead of C
[02:23:10] <Dave911> Carbide can handle some horrible situations if you get the right stuff.. One application I was working on was turning down a hard surfaced ( hardsurfacing weld). It is pretty much cutter hell.. Cutters last longer than I thought they would..
[02:23:35] <ds3> pfred1: speed tolerance so I can run the motor at its max power output
[02:24:02] <Dave911> The carbide simply screams if you don't feed it into the hard surfacing fast enough.
[02:24:15] <tom3p> i have an axis with a dc servo drive that erraticly goes open loop ( turning the belt pulley offers no resistance ).
[02:24:16] <tom3p> i'm imagining it's loosing enable, but what else might exhibit this no torque symptom?
[02:24:25] <Calfin> HSS would scream for a lot less time ;-)
[02:25:49] <Calfin> tom is "open loop" a good description? Does not sound right to me.
[02:25:57] <Dave911> HSS on this hard surfacing weld would be a waste of time .. the edge would break off in one rev .. the stuff is really hard..
[02:26:07] <Dave911> tom3p: Bad drive?
[02:26:28] <Calfin> loose connection or plug somewhere?
[02:26:31] <tom3p> yes open loop is a good sdescription & swapped amps, same result, ok on othe axis
[02:26:43] <pfred1> Dave911 must be what cylindrical grinders are for?
[02:26:57] <Calfin> agree on the spark tool!
[02:27:19] <Calfin> hard is nothing to Al2O3
[02:28:25] <Calfin> Tom3p could you have a look at the HAL scope or the status file and get a clue to what is changing?
[02:28:51] <tom3p> Calfin, more generic, not emc2
[02:29:06] <Calfin> Oh....
[02:29:35] <Calfin> that there is the problem...;-)
[02:29:58] <tom3p> i traced then enable from midpoint in schemas halfway to drive & the owner shut down the shop till tomorrow
[02:31:38] <Calfin> So Tom, the question is "Does power get cut from the motor,the drive, or the feedback device?" Hmmm.
[02:32:19] <tom3p> in general if a velocity mode amp's velocitycommand is opened, wont the drive act like it lost enable?
[02:33:23] <tom3p> Calfin, amp has power , tacho feeds back, ended there before shop closed (a cnc repair)
[02:34:40] <Calfin> seems like there would still be some power to the motor. The control should have a failure mode response however. Loss of signal (or any system really) could disable the drive. True that
[02:35:21] <tom3p> well have real scope on it tomorrow thx
[02:36:54] <Calfin> Dave911 I have been known to off hand grind hard surfaces before putting them in the lathe. Just to get under the skin you know...
[02:40:57] <andypugh> I have some CBN tools for hard stuff (ballscrews for example)
[02:41:29] <andypugh> You get sparks, not swarf, at the suggested speed.
[02:52:07] <Dave911> Interesting .. sparks...
[02:52:56] <pfred1> andypugh you mean like this? http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/1415/anvilspark.jpg
[02:53:15] <Dave911> I think they need to look at something other than different grades of carbide to turn the hard surfacing ... but they are hard to convince ... as they don't want to spend more $ but they might actually save some if they found a more effective cutter
[02:53:42] <andypugh> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIMEPkK-Doc
[02:54:37] <andypugh> Dave911: Show them this article. http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/taking-the-fear-out-of-hard-turning
[02:54:58] <Dave911> The machine has plenty of power so I wonder if they wouldn't be better off using a diamond tip
[02:55:14] <andypugh> Not for steel
[02:55:45] <andypugh> Diamond is carbon, and carbon dissolves in iron.
[02:55:59] <andypugh> That is why you use Cubic Boron Nitride.
[02:58:19] <Dave911> Didn't know that.. good article.. I'll print that out and give them a copy tomorrow when I visit them... Thanks!
[02:58:38] <ries> Hello, when I issue G10 L2 P1 R30 is it possible to have my gcode be updated on the screen aswell, currently I only see the coordinate system changed
[02:59:10] <Dave911> I have a lathe that was designed for hard turning - super rigid etc.. But I have never used it for that .... It was owned by Timken bearing in the UK!
[03:06:39] <ries> Ahh never mind, I can reload the file and then I am good
[03:07:28] <morfic> looks like i missed some nice hard machining talk
[03:13:29] <Calfin> hard machining is good to find?
[03:14:07] <cradek> ries: yeah just hit control-R
[04:52:29] <elmo40> damn, talk about SPEED! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_e7B8GTaFo
[04:52:43] <elmo40> I wonder how thick it can cut.
[05:11:50] <ries_> ries_ is now known as ries
[07:29:38] <MrSunshine_> elmo40, oh god damn =)
[07:30:36] <MrSunshine_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQIJSsbvolc&NR=1
[07:30:38] <MrSunshine_> its just sick =)
[09:23:16] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[09:30:44] <piasdom> g'mornin all
[10:11:38] <Athlocatle> Athlocatle is now known as ua9hbw
[10:22:48] <frallzor> heyhey
[10:27:44] <frallzor> JT-Dev its alive!
[10:27:56] <JT-Dev> frallzor: Nice!
[10:28:02] <JT-Dev> got any photos?
[10:28:20] <frallzor> i have a basic understanding of hal now and I finally realize its potential =)
[10:28:44] <frallzor> cant wait until I get a nice handheld case to put the gamepad in
[10:29:03] <frallzor> add estop and all ya could ever want
[10:29:12] <JT-Dev> cool, it is a little hard at first but once you get over the initial hump it gets easier
[10:29:20] <frallzor> no pics =( but ill make a nice little vid later
[10:29:29] <frallzor> its like java, first time it sucked for me :P
[10:29:48] <frallzor> but after someone shows the way past the first bump you can pass the rest somewhat ok
[10:30:13] <frallzor> brb, shower calls =)
[10:51:41] <izua> izua is now known as X0rm
[10:52:28] <X0rm> X0rm is now known as izua
[13:04:51] <dareposte2> Anybody know what dictates the "maximum velocity" in Axis?
[13:05:18] <dareposte2> I have my INI file set to allow 60mm/s on the Z axis, but in axis it is limited to 34.5 mm/s
[13:07:16] <micges_work> dareposte2: www.pastebin.com <- paste here your ini file
[13:07:41] <dareposte2> imcges_work: I don't have it right now, it's at home. I was just wondering if there's something obvious I was missing
[13:08:25] <dareposte2> my X axis is geared down 2:1, so I have it set to 30mm/s, but that shouldn't inhibit my Z axis I don't think
[13:08:42] <dareposte2> the symptom is I'm getting very slow rapids, some of the roughing cuts are going faster than the rapids
[13:10:24] <dareposte2> it's a lathe, XZ axis only, EMC 2.3 pre-head, etc
[13:10:38] <dareposte2> I may just need to upgrade to the newest EMC, I think there's a 2.3 out now that's not pre-head
[13:11:51] <micges_work> dareposte2: you have [axis_2]MAX_VELOCITY and [TRAJ]MAX_VELOCITY
[13:12:08] <dareposte2> yeah they're both set to 60
[13:13:07] <micges_work> if you have gear on axis you should manipulate scale not velcoity?
[13:13:35] <dareposte2> scale is set correctly, everything works and move the right amount
[13:13:59] <micges_work> hmm
[13:14:00] <dareposte2> I can jog the machine at the higher speeds, the rapids just don't go that fast
[13:14:37] <dareposte2> if I set the jog speed control in axis to 3600mm/min (60mm/s) the z axis jogs right all day and goes pretty speedy, but a G0 on the Z does not go the correct high speed
[13:14:38] <micges_work> rapids only in z are slower than 60?
[13:15:01] <micges_work> ok
[13:15:11] <dareposte2> thats correct, G0 rapid moves seem to be limited for some reason
[13:15:33] <dareposte2> i'm running CSS and at higher feed rates (0.010"/rev) some of the cutting passes actually run the Z harder than the rapids do
[13:15:47] <dareposte2> so it cuts faster than it returns to set for the next one
[13:15:58] <dareposte2> not really a big deal, its not a production machine, just annoying and it has me interested in why
[13:16:47] <micges_work> if you're at home pastebin it and we'll see what's wrong
[13:20:42] <dareposte2> okay thanks, I'm a work right now and still stumped
[13:20:54] <dareposte2> I'll grab a copy of it at lunch and bring it in
[14:16:09] <JT-Work> must be 25 Hardinge CC-14 toolholders on fleabay with no wedge... wonder where they went or what you would do without a wedge?
[15:14:57] <frallzor> home at last!
[15:19:15] <JT-Work> lucky guy
[15:22:40] <frallzor> made a vid!
[15:25:18] <isssy> hi all
[15:49:44] <tom4p> hello, any urls for off the shelf , ~200 W brushed dc motors?
[15:49:45] <tom4p> ( my intermittent problem turns out to be the motor itself, it'd be nice if the operator told me it got so hot it melted all the connectors )
[15:52:25] <tom4p> oops, found it glentek
[15:53:25] <skunkworks> oh yah - that has been doing 'that' for months.
[15:55:41] <skunkworks> like some databases at work would become corupted - finally tracked it down to a ups on a switch that wasn't operational anymore. on second shift they always test the generators. that was just enough to cause the switch to drop out - taking out about 20 computers. the guy said - oh yah - that has been doing that for months - when ever they test the generators - the computer need to be rebooted.
[15:56:14] <skunkworks> computers needed to be rebooted.
[16:04:59] <MattyMatt> skunkworks, maybe you should have watchdog computers either on a different UPS, or on none
[16:05:45] <MattyMatt> a distributed DB should be able to survive a single hardware failure
[16:06:51] <MattyMatt> if every PC goes down together tho, that can break any error recovery scheme
[16:07:22] <elmo40> the odds of that should be minimal.
[16:07:27] <elmo40> unless the place floods :P
[16:07:44] <MattyMatt> or their all plugged into a single UPS or switch
[16:07:52] <MattyMatt> they're
[16:08:50] <MattyMatt> anything over a dozen PC, I'd be looking at twin networks. 2 NIC in each PC
[16:09:12] <elmo40> did the UPS fail? I have my computer, monitor, routers, modem on a single APC Back-UPS 900.
[16:09:44] <MattyMatt> yeah
[16:10:03] <MattyMatt> "d - finally tracked it down to a ups on a switch that wasn't operational anymore. on second shift they always test the generators. that was just enough to cause the switch to drop out -"
[16:10:28] <elmo40> wonder how old it is.
[16:10:52] <elmo40> even my 9 year old APC UPS was still working. Would cost more to replace the batteries then buy a new one, though.
[16:10:57] <skunkworks> MattyMatt: this was some inhouse developed databases... (msaccess) most of the time it takes a dropout well - not all the time.
[16:11:54] <skunkworks> battery went south
[16:12:01] <MattyMatt> as they do
[16:12:36] <elmo40> I bought a new one. batteries are way too over priced.
[16:12:41] <elmo40> they are just lead and acid!
[16:12:44] <MattyMatt> I found a APC 350 at the dump, but there's no saving the battery
[16:12:57] <elmo40> 350 is kinda small
[16:13:07] <elmo40> 5min uptime ?
[16:13:19] <skunkworks> works great for switches..
[16:13:31] <skunkworks> hour uptime. ;)
[16:13:32] <MattyMatt> it'd do for an orderly shutdown on a server, or a Fuck Save Now on my workstation
[16:15:16] <MattyMatt> an outage on a switch shouldn't need a reboot tho, surely?
[16:15:50] <MattyMatt> the switch would keep it's settings in cmos/flash I would have thought?
[16:16:24] <MattyMatt> the PC's should just see a momentary loss of traffic
[16:16:54] <MattyMatt> oops, sorry apostrophe
[16:16:56] <skunkworks> disconnect from the server.. easy fix - reboot. the switch in question took about 30 seconds to reboot.
[16:17:01] <elmo40> true. switches are fault-friendly :P
[16:17:02] <MattyMatt> not enough coffee yet :)
[16:19:29] <MattyMatt> I have a nice 10/100 24 port bay networks switch here, but I still have 2 ports free on WRT so need to plug that in yet :)
[16:20:10] <MattyMatt> I bought it for the case. 4 17" devices for a quid, it doesn't matter what they are :)
[16:20:59] <MattyMatt> I don't need the 8 port KVM either, my 4 port works fine there too
[16:21:13] <skunkworks> we are slowly getting a GB backbone through out.
[16:21:41] <skunkworks> andypugh: !
[16:21:49] <andypugh> Hi there
[16:21:50] <MattyMatt> yeah my workstation is my fist GB device
[16:21:55] <MattyMatt> ^first
[16:22:20] <skunkworks> I should get back to framing/wiring the pantry
[16:22:33] <MattyMatt> pantry gantry?
[16:22:47] <MattyMatt> mill that food
[16:22:52] <skunkworks> heh - no. just a place to store food stuffs.
[16:23:37] <Jymmm> skunkworks: IN YOUR BELLY
[16:26:12] <elmo40> what is gb backbone?
[16:26:44] <Jymmm> Gigabit Backbone
[16:27:34] <Jymmm> 1000 mbps backhaul typically across fiber.
[16:28:09] <elmo40> I see.
[16:28:30] <elmo40> it would be nice to have. unfortunately my internet will never reach that speed.
[16:29:26] <Jymmm> I've had multiple 10GigE pipes, it is awesome =)
[16:29:40] <elmo40> send me one!
[16:30:25] <Jymmm> Ok, as soon as you send the $100,000/mo
[16:30:44] <elmo40> what?
[16:30:46] <elmo40> for internet?
[16:30:47] <elmo40> lame
[16:31:10] <Jymmm> That's actually kinda cheap for 10GigE actually.
[16:31:12] <elmo40> my 12Mb will suffice...
[16:31:35] <elmo40> don't need that much pr0n.
[16:32:12] <celeron55> you could download one EMC live cd per second
[16:32:28] <celeron55> that's certainly useful
[16:33:05] <Jymmm> At 10GigE, you become a a small Tier1 provider.
[16:35:03] <andypugh> Strangely fascinating: http://www.xkcd.com/195/
[16:35:28] <andypugh> You can see who got in first.
[16:36:52] <andypugh> Prudential have more IP space than Africa. As have Ford. GM and Chrysler have none
[16:41:43] <MattyMatt> the pattern at the bottom looks like a milling pattern to me
[16:42:25] <MattyMatt> if it leaves toolmarks, at least they'll look good :)
[16:47:50] <andypugh> MattyMatt: http://www.linuxcnc.org/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=20&func=view&catid=21&id=1668&lang=fr
[16:48:51] <MattyMatt> :)
[16:55:16] <MattyMatt> that's a nother TODO for me. support AXIS api in blender scripts
[16:56:49] <MattyMatt> only for the simulator tho. all the toolpath stuff is based around the blender curve
[16:58:49] <MattyMatt> blender's author suggested I do it in C instead. I'm not sure he realised he was suggesting forking blender
[16:59:29] <MattyMatt> I don't fancy maintaining a custom blender for CAM, anyway
[17:00:09] <MattyMatt> that'd be a full time job
[17:29:10] <frallzor> bloody vimeo acting up today =(
[17:32:21] <frallzor> oh youtube seems to like the format of the files despite reading other
[18:00:41] <elmo40> MattyMatt: we know you are up for the task ;)
[18:00:52] <elmo40> full-time BlenderCNC fork ;)
[18:01:56] <elmo40> only 11C here today.
[18:02:08] <elmo40> but my veggies are sprouting! :D
[18:11:37] <MattyMatt> I could start by building 2.5 and packaging it for Hardy
[18:12:49] <MattyMatt> weekly autobuilds etc
[18:13:48] <MattyMatt> and then my strategy would be to get as much CAM helper stuff in the main blender asap
[18:14:37] <MattyMatt> and then, only make a fork if I do somehing radical like a 2d view mode
[18:21:41] <MattyMatt> proper solids
[18:22:00] <MattyMatt> meshes with bezier edges :)
[18:25:14] <awallin> MattyMatt: is there a python shell within blender? that is aware of geometry you are drawing/editing?
[18:25:19] <MattyMatt> some of that can be snuck in under the pretence of art. e.g. if you could tell it that sth is made of PhysMat:Steel then it'll calculate the right mass & springiness so it drapes nicely
[18:25:57] <MattyMatt> yeah 2.5 has a python console in now
[18:27:15] <MattyMatt> scripts can easily get at the geometry, but need more work to modify it
[18:28:03] <awallin> if you have a bezier surface, can you get it in the form of a bunch of triangles? (aka tessellated)
[18:28:10] <awallin> or other complex surface
[18:28:24] <MattyMatt> the old API was full of getters and setters and update funcs. the new one is more direct and mostly autogenerated for everything
[18:29:44] <MattyMatt> awallin, there's 2 way to do that. either apply the bezier to the object (or a temporary copy of it) or tesselate yourself like my gcode output does
[18:30:50] <awallin> sounds like opencamlib could be used for G-code generation then...
[18:31:03] <MattyMatt> yes I hope so
[18:31:06] <awallin> but my focus is on making ocl better now (and will be for quite a while)
[18:31:10] <awallin> not on the GUI side...
[18:31:26] <MattyMatt> well that's fine, because blender is the GUI here :)
[18:31:50] <awallin> z-slice is the next operation... but the divine inspiration has not struck yet
[18:31:50] <MattyMatt> and HeeksCAD is the other one
[18:31:57] <awallin> yes.
[18:32:13] <MattyMatt> one problem is the C++ api. a C one would be much easier to use
[18:32:56] <MattyMatt> for me it would anyway. I'm allegic to C++
[18:33:10] <awallin> right
[18:33:45] <MattyMatt> but in general, C libs are easier to link
[18:33:47] <frallzor> http://vimeo.com/11559249 weeey finally
[18:34:48] <awallin> is it rack and pinion drive on all axes?
[18:34:52] <frallzor> yup
[18:34:58] <awallin> and what accuracy do you get with that?
[18:35:35] <frallzor> No idea, havent measured, but the stuff I made so far fits like gloves
[18:35:54] <awallin> looks more like kitchen door to me
[18:35:55] <frallzor> so its pretty accurate
[18:36:37] <MattyMatt> blender's ultimate weakness is the fixed 20 layers. you need a hierarchy of named layers for proper CAD
[18:42:08] <MattyMatt> frallzor: that's fast enough to use as a reprap :)
[18:43:00] <frallzor> ??
[18:43:18] <MattyMatt> there were concrete garden features in an auction locally. they fetched big money
[18:46:41] <MattyMatt> where did you get the gcode for that design?
[18:46:54] <MattyMatt> http://vimeo.com/11044951 this one
[18:47:08] <frallzor> some site that sells that stuff =)
[18:47:14] <frallzor> ill see if I can dig it up
[18:47:26] <MattyMatt> naah, it's OK :)
[18:47:55] <MattyMatt> I'm not desperate enough to start buying it yet, but my machine is idle for days now
[18:49:02] <MattyMatt> I'm resisting the temptation to mill stuff just for the hell of it
[18:49:22] <frallzor> why not mill? :P
[18:49:40] <frallzor> you built it, use it! =)
[18:49:50] <MattyMatt> when I've got working gcode, for stuff I want milled :)
[18:50:08] <MattyMatt> a.k.a. stuff I can sell
[18:50:35] <frallzor> I got some of that! but I dont have the materials for it =/
[18:50:57] <frallzor> I need mdf and veneer
[18:51:01] <frallzor> or how its spelled
[18:51:08] <MattyMatt> like that
[18:51:14] <frallzor> cheap good looking furniture =)
[18:51:30] <frallzor> IKEA spirit, flat
[18:52:34] <MattyMatt> kitchens sell easiest, from what I see
[18:52:53] <frallzor> got some nice designs for cupboard doors too
[18:52:58] <MattyMatt> people spend thousands on a few poxy cupboards
[18:53:10] <frallzor> but I cant get it done with crappy free software =/
[18:53:28] <frallzor> vectric aspire is the thing I need, but I cant really afford it =P
[18:53:47] <MattyMatt> how do you have the designs now?
[18:53:54] <frallzor> on paper
[18:54:13] <isssy> hi all
[18:54:13] <MattyMatt> get them into inkscape and you're half way there
[18:54:28] <frallzor> nah wont work with the main feature =/
[18:57:53] <MattyMatt> greek lady with a booby hanging out, and grapes?
[18:58:29] <MattyMatt> * MattyMatt studied classical art...in parts
[19:29:18] <andypugh> frallzor: You might like my jog-speed control, using the rear buttons in combinations to control the speed (top fast, bottom slow, both very slow). I think it is more ergonomic than using the number buttons. (nor is it my own idea :-)
[19:46:52] <frallzor> yeah I was planning to use that too
[19:47:02] <frallzor> Z + speed was a bit tough
[19:49:08] <frallzor> looking at the hal you pasted
[19:49:36] <frallzor> where in that do you tell it to use those buttons? seems pretty similar to the one im using
[19:50:11] <frallzor> ah nm, found it =)
[20:14:01] <frallzor> andypugh but that file I got from you just has 2 speed settings?
[20:14:34] <andypugh> 3, I think. 3 values into the mux4?
[20:15:08] <frallzor> # Jogging ########
[20:15:08] <frallzor> net jog-slow input.0.btn-top2 => mux4.0.sel1
[20:15:08] <frallzor> net jog-fast input.0.btn-base => mux4.0.sel0
[20:15:19] <frallzor> just slow or fast setting with 2 buttons
[20:15:45] <andypugh> 4 binary combinations....
[20:17:52] <frallzor> hmm
[20:18:10] <frallzor> where does it say they make a third setting then?
[20:21:32] <andypugh> they go into a mux4
[20:22:19] <andypugh> mux3 takes 2 bit inputs, and outputs different values for the 4 possible combinations.
[20:23:56] <frallzor> dont know if your approach can be used with the one I got, lots of differences
[20:25:08] <frallzor> I just dont see how to make it use 2 buttons =)
[20:25:25] <alex_joni> http://calderup.wordpress.com/2010/05/04/internet-64/
[20:26:05] <andypugh> All the buttons can be used simultaneously. You just need to know what they are called
[20:26:28] <andypugh> (and as the names are chosen by the driver, I think they should be the same)
[20:26:37] <frallzor> yes that much I understand, I just dont see where it makes the "use these 2 buttons for this to happen"
[20:26:49] <frallzor> 1 button for 1 action I understand =)
[20:26:56] <andypugh> frallzor: net jog-slow input.0.btn-top2 => mux4.0.sel1
[20:26:57] <andypugh> [21:14] frallzor: net jog-fast input.0.btn-base => mux4.0.sel0
[20:27:00] <andypugh> There.
[20:27:22] <andypugh> one button to each input of the mux4, the output of the mux4 goes to jog-speed
[20:27:43] <frallzor> but isnt that just 1 speed 1 button?
[20:28:25] <andypugh> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/mux4.9.html
[20:28:26] <frallzor> or the code understands that button1 is speed 1 button 2 is speed 2 and speed 2 is a combination on the buttons used?
[20:28:33] <frallzor> *speed 3
[20:30:00] <andypugh> the buttons are inputs to the mux4. Out of the mux4 comes one of 4 values. That value is multiplied by the analog stick position in a scale function, and passed to the jog-speed input to Axis
[20:31:44] <frallzor> you using the analog stick for speed setting?
[20:32:18] <andypugh> Analog sticks are the controls, the rear buttons are interlock and speed multiplier
[20:32:44] <frallzor> still got me confused =)
[20:32:50] <andypugh> So you need to press at least one rear button to get any movement.
[20:32:57] <frallzor> In my config there are 3 speeds and 3 buttons to control them
[20:33:05] <andypugh> (0,0) into the mux4 gives 0 out
[20:33:26] <andypugh> And in my config there are 2 buttons and three speeds.
[20:33:37] <andypugh> I can count to 1024 on my fingers :-)
[20:33:39] <frallzor> yup =) thats the thing I dont understand where it works
[20:34:09] <frallzor> I just cant see in the code where it tells what 2 buttons together does =(
[20:34:37] <andypugh> What's the URL? I have lost it
[20:35:56] <frallzor> http://www.pastebin.org/205284
[20:37:23] <andypugh> 19-22 define the 4 speed multipliers
[20:37:26] <frallzor> 16-17 Id imagine there should be a medium too :P thats what im stuck at
[20:38:15] <andypugh> Don't get hung up on what I called the signals, I could have called them thelma and louise
[20:38:25] <frallzor> id expect a barry too then
[20:38:48] <andypugh> each button goes to one input of the mux4
[20:38:56] <frallzor> yup
[20:39:06] <andypugh> 19-22 define the 4 outputs of the mux4
[20:39:22] <andypugh> 23 and 24 switch directions
[20:39:31] <frallzor> that much I understand, I just dont see where it handles 2 inputs as medium speed
[20:39:51] <frallzor> that directions stuff I dont understand either
[20:40:35] <andypugh> mux4(0,0) = 0. mux4(1,0) = 2000, mux4(0,1) = 400. mux4(1,1) = 50
[20:40:35] <frallzor> is that some way to reverse axis?
[20:41:17] <andypugh> yes, I scale the joystick inputs by -1 to switch the direction.
[20:42:08] <frallzor> mux4(1,0) and0,1 is the only thing you need to set pretty much?
[20:42:21] <frallzor> the (1,1) the code understands what it should be?
[20:42:26] <frallzor> both together
[20:42:54] <andypugh> There are 4 possible combinations of inputs to a mux4. Do you get that part?
[20:43:09] <frallzor> yup
[20:43:19] <andypugh> And so there are 4 possible outputs, yes?
[20:43:24] <frallzor> yup
[20:43:48] <andypugh> And one of them is zero-speed for safety (both inputs = 0)
[20:43:55] <frallzor> yup
[20:44:16] <skunkworks_7> crap. biab
[20:44:39] <andypugh> So, that leaves three other combinations that pass a speed from mux4 to halui.jog-speed
[20:44:51] <andypugh> (line 26)
[20:44:52] <frallzor> so far so good
[20:45:02] <andypugh> And that's it
[20:45:37] <andypugh> Then the joystick buttons go into halui.jog.N.analog and that's all it takes
[20:46:03] <andypugh> (I mean the joystick analog values)
[20:46:18] <frallzor> oh
[20:46:42] <frallzor> the order of the buttons decide what button is what?
[20:46:53] <frallzor> say one use A and B on a controller
[20:47:00] <andypugh> Yes. Sel0 and Sel1 are different
[20:47:12] <frallzor> then the combo would be like A AB B for your settings?
[20:47:19] <andypugh> Yes
[20:47:24] <frallzor> and if the B is before in order it would be B BA A
[20:47:34] <andypugh> Though I have "both" as extra-slow
[20:47:43] <andypugh> No
[20:48:21] <andypugh> If I press btn-top2 I get mux4.in1
[20:48:43] <andypugh> if i press btn-base I get mux4.in2
[20:49:04] <andypugh> if I press both at the same time I get mux4.in3
[20:49:05] <frallzor> exactly what I meant in an odd wat =)
[20:49:07] <frallzor> *way
[20:49:29] <frallzor> I meant if you'd switch top2 with base
[20:49:33] <andypugh> Unless I am holding in at least one button, jog speed is zero
[20:49:37] <frallzor> it would be the other way round
[20:49:56] <andypugh> Yes
[20:50:05] <frallzor> then I get it =)
[20:50:38] <andypugh> That's a relief, I still have some hair not torn out.
[20:50:46] <frallzor> =P
[20:53:27] <frallzor> im starting to enjoy hal slightly
[20:53:51] <skunkworks_7> hwh
[20:53:53] <skunkworks_7> heh
[20:54:07] <andypugh> Yeah, I started to take a perverse pleasure in it a few months ago. Which is why I spend so much time helping people with it.
[20:54:14] <skunkworks_7> well - it booted.. Now to see if I can get lucid working on it... http://imagebin.ca/img/zwI-TgKa.png
[20:54:52] <frallzor> hehe :P
[20:55:40] <frallzor> hmm another word for "resin"
[21:01:20] <skunkworks_7> I don't know of any synonyms
[21:01:43] <frallzor> ah I actually got the proper name in swedish figured out
[21:01:47] <frallzor> so now i can get it :P
[21:02:02] <skunkworks_7> http://thesaurus.com/browse/Resin?jss=1
[21:02:12] <skunkworks_7> ah
[21:13:09] <skunkworks_7> bbl
[22:02:46] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: ping?
[22:08:27] <JT-Hardinge> * JT-Hardinge sharpens a piece of HSS to cut UHMW but does not have a clue as to what shape to try grind it to
[22:49:13] <Dave911> JT .... pointy :-)
[22:51:05] <JT-Hardinge> ok, I must have guessed close enough as it is cutting ok
[22:54:58] <JT-Hardinge> writing g-code by hand is fun :/
[22:56:35] <andypugh> Is there another way?
[22:57:12] <JT-Hardinge> YEA! bobcrap, OneCNC, Camworks starting from the bottom of the barrel
[22:57:18] <DaViruz> i usuelly use a speech-to-text processor
[22:57:37] <JT-Hardinge> my speech is usually slurred by this time at night :)
[22:58:05] <andypugh> It's what, 5pm there?
[22:58:06] <DaViruz> voice operated fabrication makes me feel like i'm in star trek
[22:58:12] <JT-Hardinge> 6pm
[22:58:33] <DaViruz> what's that, 6 in the evening or 6 in the morning?
[22:58:50] <JT-Hardinge> I'm not sure
[22:59:20] <DaViruz> probably 6 in the morning then huh? :)
[22:59:33] <JT-Hardinge> somewhere I'm sure it is
[22:59:42] <JT-Hardinge> but it is 6pm here
[22:59:56] <DaViruz> hmm
[23:00:02] <DaViruz> i'll just check what pm is on wikipedia then
[23:00:06] <JT-Hardinge> [17:58]<JT-Hardinge>6pm
[23:00:31] <DaViruz> i see
[23:00:49] <DaViruz> i cant seem to get the meaning of am/pm to stick
[23:01:03] <JT-Hardinge> I'm not sure what they mean
[23:01:05] <toastydeath> antemeridian?
[23:01:09] <toastydeath> postmeridian?
[23:01:29] <DaViruz> meridiem appearantly
[23:01:30] <toastydeath> noon being the meridian, halfway point.
[23:01:42] <JT-Hardinge> I'm sure I don't know what that means now :)
[23:01:55] <DaViruz> diem being latin for day, i assume meri is middle
[23:02:01] <toastydeath> a meridian is a halfway point
[23:02:17] <toastydeath> the equator is a meridian between the north and south poles
[23:02:18] <andypugh> A meri is a half-way point
[23:02:36] <JT-Hardinge> * JT-Hardinge smacks his forhead against the table and says you must touch off... you must touch off... you must touch off
[23:02:47] <andypugh> a meri-diem is half a day, a meri-dian is half a (something else)
[23:03:02] <ds3> be sane, use the 24hour system.
[23:03:27] <DaViruz> i have to agree
[23:03:48] <andypugh> Decimal hours ftw
[23:04:25] <DaViruz> seconds since the epoch ftw?
[23:04:55] <DaViruz> maybe not for human readability
[23:05:48] <JT-Hardinge> * JT-Hardinge loves his e-stops and thinks I want more :)
[23:45:48] <Jymmm> Question... what do think Lotus 123 v2 complete box set, including VERTICAL function key overlays would be worth today?
[23:46:01] <Jymmm> Same goes for WORDSTAR and IBM DOS
[23:50:35] <andypugh> Approximately 5c?
[23:53:36] <Jymmm> Nah, this is the good stuff... http://i40.tinypic.com/34ngkr6.jpg
[23:55:02] <Jymmm> http://i44.tinypic.com/161dbf4.jpg