#emc | Logs for 2010-05-02

[00:29:59] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[00:41:19] <MattyMatt> ewlsey max feed rate is set in the gcode, so max velocity is rapids
[00:42:22] <ewlsey> MattyMatt, most controls have a max allowable feed rate, and rapid can be higher
[00:42:47] <ewlsey> emc seems to treat them the same
[00:43:24] <MattyMatt> coordinated moves are subject to other constraints like the max speed of axes
[00:44:22] <MattyMatt> well max velocity is rapid speed, I'm 90% sure of that
[00:44:43] <MattyMatt> which is quite sure, by my standards :)
[00:45:12] <ewlsey> if you had a machine like a tapping center, it has very fast rapids, but you would never want to feed that fast
[00:45:28] <MattyMatt> so don't
[00:45:38] <ewlsey> just wondering if it can be limited in emc
[00:46:21] <MattyMatt> not that I'm aware of
[00:46:48] <ewlsey> seems hard to idiot proof with EMC
[00:47:13] <MattyMatt> high speed metal is always hard to idiotproof
[00:47:45] <Jymmm> Not if you have zeroed in your scope properly.
[00:48:30] <MattyMatt> I dream of an intelligent machine, that can't be crashed and knows how to deal with awkward materials
[00:48:39] <MattyMatt> tis but a dream
[00:48:49] <Jymmm> It's called a crusher.
[00:48:55] <MattyMatt> :)
[00:49:35] <ewlsey> what i mean is that EMC seems to be set up to be used by the person who wrote it and he thought everyone was as smart as him
[00:50:17] <Jymmm> Heh, no comment.
[00:50:33] <andypugh> It's worse than that, it was (and is) written by dozens of people who are all scared of being seen as less smart than the others :-)
[00:50:37] <MattyMatt> the original emc was designed for pro machinists
[00:51:15] <andypugh> I haven't slept for days, since I started to try to write a bit of EMC.
[00:51:43] <MattyMatt> it'd be like having speed limiters on the handwheels
[00:51:46] <Jymmm> MattyMatt: not exactly. THE ORIGINAL EMC was a proof of concept from NIST. Then "evolved" from there.
[00:52:37] <MattyMatt> the NIST's intention was for it to be used in US industry tho
[00:52:54] <Jymmm> No, it was a proof of concept, nothing more.
[00:52:56] <MattyMatt> not by hobbyists
[00:53:15] <MattyMatt> ah ok
[00:53:23] <ewlsey> seems like it can do anything if you have zen-like patience and can remember the coutless work arounds
[00:53:24] <andypugh> ewlsey: Part of it is that people only tend to write things that they want. And once it is working they understand that bit so well there is not much incentive to make it easy, they want to get on with cutting metal.
[00:53:26] <MattyMatt> I'm only repeating other opinions.
[00:54:05] <ewlsey> andypugh that was my observation
[00:54:29] <andypugh> Well, it can do literally anything, being open source and written in a range of Turing-complete languages.
[00:54:57] <MattyMatt> you've just sort of answered the question I came to ask. should I implement tool compensation in this script tonight, or should I just shrink my toolpath so I can mill tomorrow for sure?
[00:55:04] <ewlsey> whenever I ask why EMC does something weird, the response is usually "why wouldn't it do that?"
[00:55:38] <andypugh> That's better than the other answer "change it if you want" :-)
[00:56:00] <ewlsey> or "it's always been like that, here are 57 steps to get around it"
[00:56:11] <ewlsey> agreed!
[00:56:44] <andypugh> I think that is an exaggeration. I have found most things pretty easy once you get into the mindset of the system
[00:57:07] <andypugh> (And I am an EMC noob)
[00:57:17] <ewlsey> yeah I chidd
[00:57:19] <Jymmm> andypugh: BULLSHIT
[00:57:39] <MattyMatt> I wouldn't want to start with a lathe. 3 axis is easy on the brain
[00:59:08] <andypugh> Anybody got a live machine with a Mesa card and enable_raw turned on?
[00:59:11] <MattyMatt> but hobbing with a combined mill/lathe :) you are no noob no more
[01:00:16] <andypugh> Writing a new module driver for Hostmot2 probably disqualifies me too. Not that it seems to work.
[01:00:19] <MattyMatt> with a homemade spindle ecoder iirc
[01:00:43] <andypugh> That's because I am tight
[01:01:05] <andypugh> (And also because commercial ones have too-small holes in the middle)
[01:01:25] <MattyMatt> too late for modesty. we seen the vid
[01:01:57] <andypugh> Oh, digression, you could edit that Wikipedia page about you Matt, the picture seems remarkably unflattering.
[01:02:50] <MattyMatt> I will again one day, but of course one isn't supposed to :)
[01:03:47] <MattyMatt> I presume all pics must have been ones that have been published in citable sources. I fooled around a lot for the mags
[01:03:47] <andypugh> No? Seems a bit odd, I would have thought you were the expert in that particular field
[01:04:24] <andypugh> No, the picture needs to be public domain. So you can declare any picture you have as PD and use that
[01:04:28] <MattyMatt> that's my reasoning :) better to be truth than anything else
[01:05:17] <MattyMatt> that might be construed as original reasearch into what a Matthew Smith looks like
[01:05:54] <andypugh> I know what at least one looks like. Tall, ginger and acne-scarred.
[01:06:05] <MattyMatt> I'll put my choice of pics on facebook, and put a link to that on WP
[01:06:30] <MattyMatt> is this the right MS? me looks
[01:07:09] <andypugh> I had a friend at college of the same name. He counts frogs for a living nowadays.
[01:07:53] <andypugh> Have you seen those wierd 1' tall polythene fences they put up on the sides of motoraways and building sites? That is his game.
[01:07:59] <MattyMatt> that's a fair photo. I look like that now but with greyer beard
[01:08:21] <MattyMatt> where's me clippers, and me push bike
[01:08:30] <MattyMatt> work off that lard
[01:12:02] <MattyMatt> yeah frogs are having a hard time at the moment
[01:15:23] <andypugh> Aha! I have found a reference at least to the tall poxed one: http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/matthew-smith/1/765/B17
[01:19:51] <MattyMatt> Fellow of the Royal Entomological Society. that's insects isn't it?
[01:20:25] <MattyMatt> or bugs in general anyway
[01:21:55] <MattyMatt> nope bugs in general is arthropodology :) entomology is the insect branch
[01:23:39] <andypugh> You are discussing the etymology of entomology?
[01:48:19] <MattyMatt> fraid so, and then I got into Hobbits
[01:49:43] <atmega> you make a habit of hobbits?
[01:50:16] <MattyMatt> nope, but they're rather fascinating http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_floresiensis
[01:50:51] <MattyMatt> I hope they get some DNA. the Space Corps need men like them
[01:54:37] <andypugh> There is a great deal of debate about whether they really are a species, or just a bit poorly
[01:55:26] <andypugh> Though insular dwarfism did result in Cyprus having a population of 200kg elephants, which sound like great pets. They could carry the shopping.
[01:57:17] <MattyMatt> can they properly evaluate the benefits of a two-for-one offer?
[01:58:24] <andypugh> They would never forget the milk.
[01:58:50] <MattyMatt> or the caraway buns
[02:00:42] <andypugh> I play on online game which has little elephants in it, every now and again (very rarely) one of them says "Oh, now I remember" instead of the usual "toot"
[02:01:26] <MattyMatt> runescape?
[02:01:43] <andypugh> Does that have elephants?
[02:01:53] <MattyMatt> dunno. that's why I'm asking :)
[02:02:05] <MattyMatt> my game has elephants
[02:02:15] <andypugh> No, it's an odd little pirate game.
[02:03:21] <MattyMatt> http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/3397/ele92.jpg
[02:03:40] <andypugh> Though it has probably run its course, the player base is shrinking, it seems. I have played for 5 years (eek!)
[02:04:01] <MattyMatt> http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/4821/ele25.jpg without subsurf. looks better in some ways
[02:04:06] <andypugh> That's a very turgid elephant.
[02:04:36] <MattyMatt> sprites tend to spherical
[02:05:12] <MattyMatt> everythings a bit chubby in a game
[02:05:24] <andypugh> The game I am playing is http://www.puzzlepirates.com/
[02:05:50] <andypugh> It's the archetypical "pirate themed puzzle game"
[02:07:09] <andypugh> There is actually a rather interesting disconnect between what you do and what it achieves. For example 5 pirates playing something a lot like tetris will repair carpentry damage.
[02:08:02] <MattyMatt> I did the gfx for a tetris where demons are throwing twisted corpses into a pit
[02:08:19] <MattyMatt> I couldn't be arsed writing it tho :)
[02:09:07] <andypugh> http://www.xkcd.com/724/
[02:09:42] <andypugh> YPP has charmingly naive 2D graphics. It's about the gameplay.
[02:10:00] <DaViruz> YPP?
[02:10:59] <andypugh> (Sorry, that game I linked to up there)
[02:11:50] <DaViruz> oh
[02:12:10] <andypugh> Very off-topic, ever so sorry.
[02:12:17] <DaViruz> me thinking i was reading in a nintendo ds development channel added to the confusion :)
[02:12:53] <andypugh> Nintendo DS? Isn't that a bit new-fangled?
[02:13:18] <andypugh> Though, what do you develop for nowadays Matt?
[02:13:26] <toastydeath> could make for an interesting jog control
[02:14:27] <andypugh> "You can't jig left unless you jump over these barrel"?
[02:14:46] <toastydeath> i'm sorry mario, the endmill is in another castle
[02:15:47] <andypugh> "You took the specified cutter path, and your workpiece was eaten by a grue"
[02:16:20] <andypugh> (Incidentally, there is a proper text-mode Rogue for iPhone)
[02:35:43] <MattyMatt> I don't even dabble in DS really. I got all the kit
[02:36:43] <MattyMatt> and I permalurk in the ds channel
[02:37:11] <andypugh> I don't d IRC, 'tis too new-fangled for me.
[02:37:32] <andypugh> except for this channel, obviously
[02:39:07] <MattyMatt> 9 channels for me. 2 DS, 3 Allegro 2 blender and 3 cnc
[02:39:47] <MattyMatt> that may seem like 10, but one is the allegro channel where we're supposed to be porting to DS :)
[02:40:07] <andypugh> Austin Allegro?
[02:40:18] <MattyMatt> allegro games lib
[02:40:52] <andypugh> I think I am more interested in the rubbish car
[02:40:54] <MattyMatt> I do keep meaning do a nice austin allegro tho
[02:41:13] <MattyMatt> in blender
[02:41:25] <MattyMatt> as a demo for the game's lib's 3d
[02:42:27] <andypugh> I have meddled with "art" 3D but find I too desperately want to type dimesnions
[02:43:28] <MattyMatt> blender lets you do that, but not in the way that makes most sense CAD wise
[02:43:38] <andypugh> (having just proved that I can't, for a certain level of abstraction)
[02:44:06] <MattyMatt> blender was designed to make game assets
[02:44:20] <andypugh> "assets"?
[02:44:45] <MattyMatt> yeah gfx, models, textures
[02:44:55] <andypugh> That would be jargon, right?
[02:44:59] <MattyMatt> all the data for a game
[02:45:11] <andypugh> "bits" works
[02:45:31] <MattyMatt> now THAT's jargon :)
[02:46:12] <andypugh> I didn't mean it in that sense
[02:47:15] <MattyMatt> to management, assets are what they are literally. things you've invested money in and now own and are the value of the project
[02:48:10] <andypugh> Well, yes. Like I am a "human resource"
[02:48:49] <andypugh> I am waiting for us to have a "wetware components" office
[02:49:05] <MattyMatt> a vs project calls them resources
[02:50:32] <andypugh> Anyway: do you have EMC up and running anywhere convenient?
[02:50:49] <MattyMatt> that london bus I did is now an asset. I can use that to add bussy value to any product
[02:50:53] <andypugh> And do you have any sort of Mesa card?
[02:51:02] <MattyMatt> yes but no
[02:51:11] <MattyMatt> my machine runs fine on one parport
[02:53:01] <andypugh> I was meant to be getting up in 2 hours to join a number of busses on the Historic Commercial Vehicle Society London to Brighton run. (on a 1916 fire engine) Which I have done twice a year for the last 25 years. But I didn't fancy it this year.
[02:53:56] <andypugh> Though when I decided not to bother I was rather expecting to have a new Ball Screw
[02:55:08] <ewlsey> BTW here is a post on my machine: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=770036#post770036
[02:55:21] <ewlsey> I think it is good enough to call it done
[02:58:44] <MattyMatt> nice mill
[02:59:15] <ewlsey> thanks
[02:59:15] <MattyMatt> it looks very small to be using proper mills with tapers
[02:59:21] <ewlsey> just added a few more pics
[02:59:30] <ewlsey> BT30 taper
[02:59:54] <ewlsey> I have the original invoice, it cost about $30,000 in 1992
[03:00:06] <MattyMatt> eek :)
[03:00:58] <ewlsey> the travel is X 8, Y 6, Z 7 inches
[03:01:24] <ewlsey> the shop I bought it from used it to make graphite electrodes for a sinker EDM
[03:01:48] <MattyMatt> I wanted enough x&y to make guitar bodies. I don't think I've managed it
[03:02:33] <andypugh> MattyMatt: The obvious answer (and a very wrong one indeed) is to take up the Ukelele
[03:02:51] <MattyMatt> they are very popular atm
[03:03:04] <MattyMatt> can I make them if I promise not to play em
[03:03:17] <MattyMatt> ?
[03:04:58] <ewlsey> my mill just makes parts for itself...
[03:05:29] <andypugh> ewlsey: Is that BLDC motor still good
[03:05:34] <ewlsey> yes
[03:05:46] <ewlsey> it has an encoder too
[03:06:10] <andypugh> Hang on to it, it is possible that BLDC motor control might get a bit easier in EMC soon
[03:06:22] <ewlsey> oh yeah?
[03:07:03] <ewlsey> It is an odd voltage, 170V. That was the problem and why I replaced it with an AC motor
[03:07:11] <spasticteapot> Can anyone here recommend a propane torch?
[03:07:12] <andypugh> I am working on two parallel threads, Arduino BLDC driver and Hostmot2 3-phase PWM
[03:07:54] <ewlsey> can the arduino read the hall effect sensors?
[03:08:07] <andypugh> Yes
[03:08:17] <ewlsey> probably requires assembler to get the sample rate high enough...
[03:08:28] <spasticteapot> Bit of an odd question, but I need something that can do silver soldering without the loopy cost of oxygen.
[03:08:38] <andypugh> Heck, My arduino reads resolvers. Hall sensors is trivial
[03:08:48] <ewlsey> OK
[03:09:13] <andypugh> And no, I can do Resolver and 10,000rpm in C
[03:09:14] <ewlsey> I would need some big power transisters or something to actually drive the motor?
[03:09:29] <andypugh> Yes, but that part is easy.
[03:09:33] <spasticteapot> andypugh: How does a resolver work?
[03:09:55] <ewlsey> I dunno if I can switch it back now...
[03:10:11] <ewlsey> I love this picture http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=106229&d=1272769096
[03:10:41] <andypugh> ewlsey: Read this: http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/doc2592.pdf
[03:10:55] <andypugh> The power modules are $20
[03:11:22] <ewlsey> andypugh, I was quoted $1400 for a new BLDC driver from Dyna Mechatronics, but the one I needed was no longer available
[03:13:00] <andypugh> spasticteapot: A Resolver is a rather nice, rugged, infinite resolution absolute encoder. On the negative side they are not trivial to work with.
[03:13:02] <ewlsey> on my mill, the spidle motor was a BLDC and there was an encoder on the motor shaft to give velocity feedback to a D/A converter that would send a proportional gain signal to the motor control
[03:13:24] <ewlsey> are resolvers analoge?
[03:13:38] <andypugh> They are a transformer, and entirely analog.
[03:13:54] <ewlsey> the good old days
[03:14:13] <andypugh> Wikipedia explains better than I can
[03:14:20] <normaldotcom> I have some pwm motor drivers that I want to use with EMC, but each driver takes a single pwm signal for both forward/reverse motion... I think I could use the pwmgen interface in single output mode, but i would to change something to accomodate for the ranges for forward/back. Any ideas?
[03:14:28] <ewlsey> BTW they are used often in factories because they are more rugged (encoders don't like dust)
[03:14:45] <andypugh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolver_(electrical)
[03:15:02] <MattyMatt> spasticteapot: how much silver soldering and how often?
[03:15:52] <andypugh> And to work a resolver with an Arduino: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?ResolverToQuadratureConverter
[03:15:53] <MattyMatt> I think propane blowtorches are hot enough
[03:16:11] <ewlsey> andypugh, that BLDC control is awesome, I wish I had know about it a year ago
[03:16:11] <MattyMatt> I'd have to ask momma or sis tho, they're the silversmiths around here
[03:16:33] <andypugh> normaldotcom: I am not sure I understand the question
[03:17:06] <MattyMatt> that's like a hobby servo isn't it? one adapted to constant rotation
[03:17:37] <andypugh> Are you saying that there are separate PWM inputs for each direction?
[03:17:43] <MattyMatt> but power and control signal are separate on those
[03:18:28] <normaldotcom> andypugh: My motor controllers take a pwm value, for half of the PWM spectrum, the motor turns in reverse, for the other half, it turns forwards
[03:18:46] <normaldotcom> hopefully that makes some sense :-\
[03:18:55] <MattyMatt> so it's just reversible PWM
[03:18:55] <andypugh> Ah, yes, OK.
[03:19:06] <normaldotcom> yes, pretty much
[03:19:26] <andypugh> You can probably just add on a half-scale constant in HAL
[03:20:06] <normaldotcom> hmm
[03:20:13] <normaldotcom> that seems like it could work
[03:20:15] <ewlsey> normadotcom, what are you using to convert to analog output?
[03:20:34] <andypugh> I think he is PWM all the way
[03:20:35] <ewlsey> mesa board or something?
[03:20:45] <normaldotcom> yeah, pwm out of the parallel port
[03:20:59] <ewlsey> and the servo takes PWM input?
[03:21:12] <normaldotcom> my motor drivers take pwm input
[03:21:20] <ewlsey> that is handy
[03:21:43] <ewlsey> can't you set the PWM range in HAL?
[03:22:06] <normaldotcom> I haven
[03:22:14] <normaldotcom> 't actually written any hal code yet
[03:22:24] <andypugh> You might want a deadzone so that you can actually stop, or is there a seperate "motor run" signal?
[03:22:40] <andypugh> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.4/html/man/man9/deadzone.9.html
[03:23:42] <andypugh> But yes, the HAL "scale" component takes slope and offset, so can convert spindle speed demand to offset demand
[03:23:58] <normaldotcom> ok, scaling is looking like it will work
[03:23:59] <ewlsey> normaldotcom, can you run your motor with one wire?
[03:24:05] <normaldotcom> I need to read some more documentation :D
[03:24:10] <normaldotcom> yes, one signal wire
[03:24:34] <MattyMatt> 20ms frame length with 10-50% duty cycle range?
[03:25:03] <MattyMatt> if so, you got a souped up RC servo
[03:25:05] <ewlsey> is there a motor stop range? or do you have to output a specific frequecy to stop the servo?
[03:25:24] <andypugh> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.4/html/man/man9/scale.9.html
[03:25:36] <normaldotcom> basically so, the controller is pretty much RC. It's not anywhere near optimal, but I have a few on-hand.
[03:25:49] <normaldotcom> there is a stop range
[03:26:08] <ewlsey> ok
[03:26:25] <ewlsey> are they velocity servos?
[03:27:00] <MattyMatt> Nb magnets and mosFETs make these servos a lot more interesting than they used to be :) isobot/robocup etc
[03:28:00] <MattyMatt> ewlsey: it's a common mod. take out the feedback pot and grind off the end stops. the pot is now a speed adjuster
[03:28:00] <normaldotcom> my servos themselves are 32v/10.5a sanyodenki's, with quadrature encoders, I'm only running them at 24v right now though
[03:28:48] <ewlsey> hmm, must be a small machine for 300W servos, what are you building?
[03:29:42] <normaldotcom> I'm attempting to build a cnc machine with parts I have on hand and cheap/free parts I've acquired :)
[03:31:35] <ewlsey> sounds like a good way to go
[03:31:47] <MattyMatt> oi, my spindle is only 140W :)
[03:32:41] <MattyMatt> I'm finding 3mm collet a bit constraining already
[03:33:11] <MattyMatt> what are you gonna use for slides?
[03:34:44] <MattyMatt> my original plan was to build a mini machine using only printer & scanner pasrts, but it got bigger
[03:35:27] <normaldotcom> I'm thinking of using round shaft/sleeve bearings, but I'm still thinking about other options
[03:36:30] <ewlsey> MattyMatt, it will keep getting bigger I suspect
[03:36:49] <MattyMatt> 4th axis next :)
[03:36:55] <normaldotcom> I know some people have had success with simple bearings in u-channel aluminum, but I'm not sure how well that works out
[03:37:38] <MattyMatt> grooved bearings work nice I've heard
[03:37:48] <MattyMatt> they're not cheap to buy tho
[03:37:50] <ewlsey> I'm going for rigid tapping, I need a braking resister though
[03:38:48] <MattyMatt> I've had reasonable success with file cabinet drawer slides on my Y :)
[03:39:21] <andypugh> I have never heard anyone say "my machine is too big, I am making a smaller one"
[03:39:43] <MattyMatt> except Mr Intel
[03:39:50] <Jymmm> andypugh: That's a penis thing
[03:41:14] <andypugh> And my eBay Boxford went strange, with 6 hours to go he cancelled all bids and withdrew the auction. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried to bidsnipe it.
[03:41:48] <MattyMatt> I quite like the reprap mendel. it's tough enough to be a mill I reckon
[03:42:02] <MattyMatt> a dremel pusher like mine at least :)
[03:42:10] <Jymmm> andypugh: probably had another buyer other than ebay
[03:43:13] <MattyMatt> I made a virtual mendel in blender. it was almost like making one for real
[03:43:19] <andypugh> Maybe, but I think he was foolish, it was probably going to go pretty high
[03:44:13] <ewlsey> andypugh no machine is too big. We have a few of this type at work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e47umuAS-EA
[03:44:38] <ewlsey> the working area is about the size of a large 2 car garage. Still not big enough
[03:45:20] <ewlsey> most guys stand on the work piece while it is being machined (large dies)
[03:46:18] <MattyMatt> that's the kind of vid that made machine so big :)
[03:46:30] <andypugh> ewlsey: Nice toy.
[03:46:30] <MattyMatt> ^my
[03:47:05] <MattyMatt> I was happy with the idea of 8" x 8" belt drive until I saw big mills eating steel
[03:47:06] <ewlsey> you can only run them quickly when cutting foam
[03:47:42] <andypugh> ewlsey: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Butler-Elgamill-Hi-Power-L-type-boring-milling-machine-/270571386050?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_BOI_Metalworking_Milling_Welding_Metalworking_Supplies_ET&hash=item3eff4fb4c2#ht_1262wt_882
[03:48:29] <ewlsey> looks like some bits are missing
[03:48:36] <ewlsey> where is the spindle?
[03:48:59] <ewlsey> 8 meter travel!
[03:49:20] <andypugh> I think they are modular. It is a machine my dad has talked about where the column sort of walks round the work
[03:49:58] <MattyMatt> I wonder if the crane is cnc'ed :)
[03:50:21] <ewlsey> I don't think the crane is goint to do it in one shot
[03:51:25] <andypugh> "Three Floor Plates" I think you can add more if you want a bigger envelope.
[03:51:25] <ewlsey> andypugh: I would buy this http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Butler-Elgamill-Hi-Power-L-type-boring-milling-machine-/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280475980886#ht_1926wt_939
[03:52:39] <MattyMatt> with whose money?
[03:53:03] <ewlsey> "gotta spend money to make money"
[03:53:35] <MattyMatt> usually the other way around
[03:53:54] <andypugh> If you need a UK contact, My dad is in that area (retired engineer, used to specify 14m gears...)
[03:53:54] <ewlsey> one begets the other
[03:54:29] <ewlsey> can he get me hired on at a formula one team?
[03:54:42] <ewlsey> McLaren maybe?
[03:54:48] <andypugh> David Browns have (or had) an Elgamill a bit bigger than the eBay one
[03:55:24] <andypugh> I actually know at least two people in F1 teams.
[03:55:41] <ewlsey> there is Lotus team now too, but I think they are in Malaysia
[03:55:59] <ewlsey> sign me up andypugh!
[03:56:08] <andypugh> In fact, they would have been on the HCVS run tomorrow, that I have decided to miss.
[03:56:18] <ewlsey> we tried having a team here in the US, it didn't go well
[03:56:28] <MattyMatt> is it too late? would you need to drive to london?
[03:57:04] <andypugh> I ought to get back in touch with the extremely cute redhead who worked on the Red Bull KERS system.
[03:57:32] <MattyMatt> mm hell would be driving through london after no sleep, even on a sunday
[03:57:48] <ewlsey> be carefull andypugh, I always said "two engineers don't make a right"
[03:57:49] <andypugh> I would need to leave now, which would involve a lot less Bowmore
[03:58:52] <MattyMatt> the cutest redhead I ever knew had a thing for schumacher
[03:59:17] <ewlsey> micheal or ralph? (lol)
[03:59:30] <MattyMatt> winners win
[04:00:01] <ewlsey> if you're not first; you're last
[04:00:54] <andypugh> http://www.sniffpetrol.com/
[04:01:01] <andypugh> Bottom of the page
[04:01:02] <ewlsey> isn't it like 4:00 am in the UK?
[04:01:07] <ewlsey> do you people sleep?
[04:01:11] <andypugh> 5am
[04:01:17] <MattyMatt> only on the motorway
[04:02:33] <ewlsey> lol
[04:03:02] <ewlsey> can one actually find metric tooling in the UK?
[04:03:59] <andypugh> err, yes. In fact it's harder to find Imperial
[04:04:39] <ewlsey> I don't know what our problem is here in the states
[04:05:30] <ewlsey> I work for a Japanese company, metric all day long. Drives me crazy to use inches/pounds now
[04:06:15] <andypugh> The US went metric in 1893, but not very wholeheartedly
[04:06:48] <andypugh> Actually, it isn't about the units, any rational system is fine.
[04:06:56] <ewlsey> once China replaces us as the industrial leader we will probably change
[04:07:36] <ewlsey> the US system is far from rational...
[04:07:45] <andypugh> But the Imperial system confuses weight and mass in a rather fundamental way, so you need lots of constants and conversion factors
[04:08:18] <ewlsey> actually, I think metric is messed up there
[04:08:38] <andypugh> If F = M a with no extra constants, then all is well. So accept poundals or slugs and you are fine
[04:09:16] <ewlsey> take a crane, a metric crane is rated for 5 tonnes, mass. A US crane is rated for 5 tons, weight. Seems better to have a force than a mass
[04:09:29] <andypugh> Metric is messed up in having a kg as the base mass, that should be the gram
[04:10:19] <ewlsey> we use pound-mass and pound usually, slugs are sort of antiquated
[04:11:00] <andypugh> A metric crane _should_ be rated in Newtons, but saying what mass it can lift on the installed planet seems fair enough.
[04:11:26] <ewlsey> yeah, still seems strange from an engineering stand point
[04:11:42] <ewlsey> it is built in in the US system
[04:12:09] <andypugh> No, it is glossed-over in the US syste
[04:12:33] <ewlsey> well people here are pretty dumb, so it's for the better
[04:15:28] <andypugh> Personally I quite like inches, they are about the right size. A system of 16inches to the foot, 4096 ft to the mile etc would be nice.
[04:16:06] <ewlsey> http://www.popsci.com/military-aviation-amp-space/article/2009-06/nasa-gets-heat-ditching-metric-system-new-shuttle-replacement
[04:16:35] <ewlsey> it is all what you are comfortable with
[04:17:00] <ewlsey> I work with a lot of Japanese guys, they sure as hell don't want to adopts inches
[04:17:14] <ewlsey> same with the Germans
[04:18:40] <ewlsey> I like the last line in the aritcle "0 is the same in English and metric"
[04:19:13] <andypugh> It's not actually all that big an issue, as the inch is a derivative unit of the mm
[04:19:38] <andypugh> ie, the inch is _defined_ as 25.4mm
[04:21:11] <ewlsey> yeah, problem is all those other units that come with inches
[04:21:35] <ewlsey> fluid ounces or degrees farenheit
[04:21:59] <ewlsey> or kips
[04:25:09] <andypugh> Indeed. You can build a rational system from any base units (time, length, mass, charge) you choose. But Imperial isn't one. cgs is at least as good as si, and mks is fine too.
[04:28:42] <andypugh> It's daylight. time to sleep
[08:24:08] <renesis> guys i think im compiling like every lunix module ever
[08:25:19] <Valen> sounds like fun
[08:26:15] <renesis> also alt key doesnt seem to be getting to irssi in xfce terminal
[08:26:44] <renesis> Valen: not really but the howto is like USE THIS CONFIG so i did so i guess its making every module ever
[08:27:11] <Valen> gives you good hardware support at least
[08:27:18] <renesis> ya srs...
[08:27:18] <Valen> its probably based of a stock ubuntu kernel
[08:28:00] <renesis> its fetched from kernel.org but i guess to work with ubuntu it has to be modular like that
[08:29:15] <renesis> so i rebuilt the old cnc machine into an xp thing for my mom, and put my emc dir on an sd card
[08:29:32] <renesis> and thought, dont just stick it in the little pc youll pull it out to use it then lose it
[08:29:37] <renesis> so ya thats what happened
[09:25:04] <sealive> hi awallin
[09:25:16] <sealive> r211 released
[09:25:31] <piasdom> g'mornin all
[09:25:33] <sealive> how do i update this all
[09:38:35] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[10:26:37] <renesis> omg guys guys latency isnt going above 4991us
[10:26:40] <renesis> \o/
[10:27:43] <renesis> okay nm it went to 5033
[10:32:47] <renesis> also there is errors in the wiki howto commands where he does like something=usr/src/stuff
[10:32:57] <renesis> instead of /usr/src/stuff and it doesnt work
[10:44:18] <renesis> * renesis ^5 renesis
[10:47:21] <Valen> compile 5
[11:24:28] <sealive> hi all
[12:04:33] <awallin> hi sealive. if you do a fresh checkout of ocl, you will find a new cutter called CylConeCutter which is a truncated(flat) cone-cutter.
[12:04:40] <awallin> it seems to be working somehow
[12:04:50] <awallin> you could try it and report any bugs you find :)
[12:04:55] <awallin> gotta run now. c u later
[12:13:03] <renesis> atom d510 intel board w/ xubuntu 9.10 in tiny lianli box = win
[12:16:55] <renesis> wiki instructions are really good i got all the same errors, it already had all the fixes there
[12:28:56] <sealive> ok awallin
[13:00:17] <jthornton> :/ back to dialup for a bit till the ISP gets there radio thingy working
[13:00:52] <jthornton> at least I ran the second cable for my LAN and I can see all the computers from each other now :)
[13:01:13] <jthornton> thanks to all that helped me sort that mess out
[13:03:33] <MattyMatt> * MattyMatt sends jthornton 2 pringles cans
[13:04:03] <jthornton> I think 303 cans work better
[13:04:30] <MattyMatt> dogfood cans are considered most suitable for english weather
[13:05:58] <jthornton> feels like English weather here as it has rained the last few weeks
[13:07:27] <MattyMatt> I used to get load more programming done when I was paying for IRC by the minute
[13:45:34] <skunkworks> jthornton: did you get hit by the storms?
[13:46:11] <jthornton> not much they passed a bit south I think... we got plenty of rain but no flooding
[13:47:59] <skunkworks> that is good
[13:48:34] <jthornton> I'm up a bit from the high water mark so if it floods at my house it is really bad
[15:35:13] <ries> Hey Guys, I am checking http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Adding_Custom_MDI_Buttons and that works fine. except that the 'rapid to home' button is floating as a separate window, is it possible to get it in the axis window as shown on the screenshot?
[15:46:30] <ries> He see it already, the tutorial on http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Adding_Custom_MDI_Buttons is wrong, it doesn't mention adding PYVCP = panel.xml under [DISPLAY]
[15:52:36] <awallin> ries, the postgui.hal file needs to also be mentioned in the ini? that could be added to the wiki page also
[15:52:58] <ries> awallin: I just added it to the wiki actually...
[15:53:15] <ries> awallin: sorry, I added : To load the panel within axis add the following lines under the [DISPLAY] section:
[15:53:22] <ries> The rest is good as far as I can see
[15:53:39] <awallin> yes, but postgui.hal also need to be in the INI
[15:53:46] <awallin> maybe under [AXIS] ?
[15:54:43] <ries> let me see...
[15:55:06] <ries> Yes you are right, I took that from a other tut.... will add that
[15:55:13] <awallin> great
[16:01:24] <ries> awallin: added....
[16:02:19] <awallin> good. if you just add more lines MDI_COMMAND = .... will they appear on halui.mdi-command-01 02 03 and so on?
[16:07:36] <ries> let me check...
[16:07:47] <ries> that was actually teh part I didn't understand fully yet
[16:08:16] <ries> Ahh, so that is how it works...
[16:08:38] <ries> I was already clueless where the 00 came from under halui.mdi-command-00
[16:13:26] <ries> awallin: I added under a note : If you wish to add more commands, then follow up MDI_COMMAND commands will appear in the postgui.hal file in halui.mdi-command-01 02 03 and so on.
[16:27:20] <awallin> ries. ok. I had not used multiple MDI_COMMAND lines, but I am guessing if you have many they will apppear on pins 00 01 02 and so on. I haven't tested this.
[16:27:48] <ries> I think that looks about right
[16:28:15] <micges> awallin: yes that is the way that it works
[16:28:20] <awallin> ok, if you have the time/energy it is good to push these things from the wiki into the manuals at some point
[16:29:00] <ries> can I issue multiple G code commands on a single MDI file??? for example G0 Z1; G0 X0 Y0; G0 Z0
[16:29:38] <micges> ries: you can use O word and call external gcode file
[16:29:57] <ries> micges: that was my second option... :)
[16:30:26] <micges> halui can execute only one valid gcode line
[16:40:18] <sealive> hi
[16:42:27] <sealive> awallin: are you on the pc
[16:42:53] <awallin> sealive: doing some of the compound cutters now
[16:57:29] <Jymmm> check the guy in the truck (and the next couple of videos too) ... http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2010/05/01/ar.scotland.tornado.katv?hpt=T2
[17:22:35] <ries> Jymmm: when I press that link I get a pope video
[17:23:18] <Jymmm> Works for me.
[17:24:00] <Jymmm> copy and paste it in your browser
[17:24:28] <ries> Jymmm: it redirects to http://edition.cnn.com/video/
[17:45:42] <alex_joni> ries: works for me
[18:06:50] <ries> alex_joni: Jymmm I thik CNN was set to some local version... in a other browser it did work
[18:07:20] <Jymmm> what were you using, chrome?
[18:22:48] <alex_joni> Jymmm: chrome here
[18:31:27] <awallin> behold, some new insanely great cutter-classes for ocl: http://www.anderswallin.net/2010/05/composite-cutters-for-ocl/
[18:34:18] <archivist> * archivist hands awallin a gear cutter and runs before he gets hit
[18:37:48] <ries> Jymmm: Safari
[18:38:41] <awallin> now how would we do surface-finish machining with a gear cutter...
[18:40:08] <archivist> we rotate the blank and take a cut :) and the tooth sides get a finish :)
[18:41:07] <awallin> it's probably not a good idea to draw the gear as an STL surface
[18:41:23] <awallin> and then have the CAM algo reverse engineer where you want the gear-cutter to go
[18:41:36] <awallin> some kind of canned cycle or "feature-based CAM" would be better
[18:43:09] <archivist> could be, but a user in here did show a gear being cut with an end mill, gear was a about a metre dia
[18:44:32] <archivist> he was from .de and later got injured not seen him for a couple of years
[18:45:55] <awallin> i've only seen those scraping-like or whatever machines for big gears. goes up and down and "shaves" it to shape
[18:48:01] <awallin> who uses cutters like these anyway?? http://www.anderswallin.net/wp-content/2008_02zmap/apt.jpg
[18:48:16] <cradek> I've never seen one
[18:58:23] <renz0r> looks like an engraving bit
[19:00:08] <renz0r> guys emc on d510 atom was totally undramatic there is nothing left to do i feel empty
[19:01:02] <renz0r> maybe more will go wrong when i get geckos
[19:06:25] <awallin> renz0r: what processor is that? 330?
[19:07:26] <awallin> oh, it's a new processor
[19:07:38] <awallin> what motherboard then?
[19:07:41] <awallin> small one from intel?
[19:21:46] <Dave911> The D510 is the successor to the popular Intel 330 dual core Mini Itx board
[19:23:31] <Dave911> It is faster than the 330 based board but not a lot..
[19:24:36] <andypugh> Is it cheaper?
[19:36:36] <renz0r> andypugh: kinda the same
[19:36:56] <renz0r> sec
[19:37:31] <renz0r> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121399&cm_re=d510-_-13-121-399-_-Product
[19:37:34] <renz0r> i got that one
[19:37:44] <renz0r> then bought a dual parport pci card
[19:37:58] <renz0r> and stole the parport dongle from it (there is a header on the mobo)
[19:38:06] <renz0r> i put it in thise case...
[19:38:28] <renz0r> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811112227&cm_re=lian_li_mini-itx-_-11-112-227-_-Product
[19:39:02] <renz0r> so kinda tight, im running it with a 550W antec modular psu, so that doesnt get hot at all
[19:39:32] <renz0r> the 120mm fan in the psu is the only fan for now but its right over the passive heatsink on the mobo
[19:39:51] <renz0r> if its not enough in the summertime, ill put a 120mm on the side external =\
[19:54:53] <MattyMatt> remote: Counting objects: 75269, done.
[19:55:32] <andypugh> I hope you had a computer do that counting for you
[19:56:05] <MattyMatt> yeah, it likes to count
[19:57:38] <MattyMatt> I need more screens
[19:58:37] <MattyMatt> 2 more of these 20" lcd, all turned sideways
[19:59:13] <andypugh> I am trying very hard, but this always evaluates as zero, any ideas?
[19:59:15] <andypugh> (float)((deadtime * 2.0 * 65536.0 * 1.0e9)/(hm2->tp_pwmgen.clock_frequency * dds))
[19:59:46] <andypugh> (deadtime is an int, =511
[20:00:33] <MattyMatt> force it with ((float)deadtime)
[20:01:29] <MattyMatt> that cast outside will be too late for the /
[20:02:05] <MattyMatt> that's a point, cast everything right of / too
[20:02:08] <andypugh> Still no joy. I might be misunderstanding the problem.
[20:05:16] <MattyMatt> how big is dds?
[20:05:43] <andypugh> 26256
[20:05:50] <MattyMatt> it might be multiplying 2 ints there and overflowing
[20:06:23] <andypugh> clock frequency is a u32
[20:07:59] <MattyMatt> so /(float)((int64_t) (hm2->tp_pwmgen.clock_frequency) * dds)
[20:08:46] <andypugh> It works everywhere else, the annoying thing is that this is just to get an error message to print right
[20:10:43] <MattyMatt> that sounds suspect :)
[20:19:08] <andypugh> It's entirely possible that the problem lies with me not understanding printf properly, too.
[20:22:17] <MattyMatt> python's is worse :)
[20:22:46] <MattyMatt> until tuples make sense
[20:22:56] <andypugh> Yes. I need to cast the result to match the format character....
[20:24:02] <MattyMatt> it needs to evaluate as float/float internally too
[20:24:16] <MattyMatt> if in doubt, I cast every term
[20:24:49] <andypugh> Now to go to the actual machine and see if it doing the right thing on the oscilloscope screen
[20:25:15] <MattyMatt> I know float/int does an int division, so you do need to cast the right side
[20:26:09] <MattyMatt> * PI / 180.0 <- the 180 must be a float literal there
[20:26:24] <borud> *sigh* spent two hours soldering together the carrier board for my stepper drivers yesterday and I seem to have a mysterious short somewhere
[20:27:29] <MattyMatt> poke around with a big needle
[20:28:07] <MattyMatt> think like a dentist
[20:28:37] <borud> how to do inflict pain on a PCB? :)
[20:28:37] <MattyMatt> make your natural instincts pay
[20:28:48] <borud> s/to do/do you/
[20:29:11] <borud> my natural instincts tell me to smash the thing and start over :)
[20:30:50] <MattyMatt> I seen subs labelled O<name> in docs. is that just in docs?
[20:32:42] <andypugh> No, you can do it
[20:33:04] <MattyMatt> cool
[20:33:37] <andypugh> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?SubProgramFiles
[20:45:57] <MattyMatt> ah. it doesn't look like I can use subroutines for rotated parts
[20:46:59] <andypugh> MattyMatt: You might be able to cheat with a kinematics module
[20:47:48] <MattyMatt> naah I'll just get blender to blurt a longhand file
[20:49:01] <MattyMatt> gcode is disposable
[20:50:38] <MattyMatt> if I'm cheap I can save a few cuts that way too
[20:51:06] <MattyMatt> lay things out cutter width apart :)
[20:55:02] <KimK> andypugh: Hi, I've been following your comments about multi-phase PWM, a great project, thanks for your work. I've been wanting to try that myself, but unfortunately that project is too far down my list of projects right now, maybe later? So thanks for paving the way.
[20:56:46] <andypugh> I what I think is a fully-working driver for Hostmot2 for the 3-phase PWM. I am about to send it to PCW for him to look over, then I guess I am looking for someone to commit it.
[20:57:47] <MattyMatt> oh wow :) I was thinking 5 phase for fancy spindles. yeah 3 phase will be handy I bet
[20:57:51] <KimK> Ah, I can't help you there, I'm not a VIP either, LOL
[20:58:50] <MattyMatt> was it 3000rpm that 5 phase stepper was doing on youtube?
[20:58:55] <MattyMatt> yeah I think so
[20:59:28] <MattyMatt> 6" long nema 43 I think
[20:59:54] <MattyMatt> that was impressive
[21:00:53] <andypugh> under load or not?
[21:01:23] <MattyMatt> no load, but it accelerated nicely
[21:01:34] <MattyMatt> and braked, so it must have some torque
[21:03:14] <KimK> andypugh: Re your 3-phase driver, I have a set of drives that accept 2-phase PWM and then reconstruct the third phase internally by subtraction from zero. So on your proposed driver, can I "save an output" by only running two phases out through HM_2/Mesa/HAL?
[21:04:11] <KimK> MattyMatt: Thanks, that sounds interesting, I'll look for it on YouTube.
[21:06:29] <MattyMatt> I can't find the vid
[21:06:46] <pfred1> MattyMatt look harder
[21:07:12] <KimK> MattyMatt: That's OK, I'll stumble across it eventually.
[21:07:22] <KimK> * KimK goes looking
[21:08:00] <MattyMatt> * MattyMatt tries stepper 5 phase 3600 rpm
[21:08:19] <frallzor> * frallzor pokes MattyMatt
[21:08:19] <MattyMatt> and in my history :) I've fouund it before obviously
[21:08:29] <pfred1> what torque at 6300 RPM?
[21:08:34] <andypugh> Not directly with the driver, no. But if the BIT file didn't declare the pins but had the same driver structure then it would work. I have already discussed the option of having 3-wire version. (The existing BIT files have 6 wires for the high-side and low-side drivers and a programmable dead-band)
[21:08:39] <pfred1> 3600 even
[21:11:00] <pfred1> frallzor did you get that pendant?
[21:11:26] <MattyMatt> it was a very big motor (by my standards) and it accel & decel snappy. that says torque to me
[21:11:27] <KimK> MattyMatt: Re 5-phase stepper vid: And it's not one of these? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIsSol5q_IQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-dfACjvC2k http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRsSuTKWg2M
[21:12:22] <frallzor> nope, spent money on tools
[21:12:45] <pfred1> frallzor thing looked like something someone made in their basement anyways
[21:13:02] <frallzor> not really
[21:13:18] <frallzor> better looking than most non-proffesional
[21:13:50] <pfred1> frallzor I bought a Wacom tablet yesterday
[21:14:02] <MattyMatt> KimK none of those. it was a just a closeup of a big blue motor with shaft in the air and tape to show rotation
[21:14:17] <MattyMatt> I don't think you get to see the controller
[21:15:00] <MattyMatt> it moved and sounded like halfway between stepper & servo
[21:15:00] <pfred1> MattyMatt I think I've seen that video motor shaft was pointing up in the air?
[21:15:14] <MattyMatt> yep
[21:15:32] <frallzor> I've had wacoms :) but I got tired of them, rather use my markers and sketch on a paper
[21:15:54] <MattyMatt> wacom rules for online whiteboards tho
[21:16:10] <frallzor> considering a iPad though for use as digital sketchpad
[21:16:12] <pfred1> frallzor oh i prefer paper too but every now and again I have to do digital and this seems way better to me than a mouse
[21:16:15] <MattyMatt> (or aiptek, for the low rent crowd)
[21:16:45] <pfred1> frallzor I got the pressure sensitivity working but I'm not sure if I have the eraser absolutely correct yet
[21:17:15] <pfred1> frallzor I like the pressure i think it is really nice
[21:17:58] <MattyMatt> for cad I use a mouse :)
[21:18:14] <MattyMatt> I tried it with Flash, and that didn't work out either
[21:18:22] <frallzor> I couldnt stand cad with wacom
[21:18:28] <pfred1> MattyMatt I mouse with my right hand but I am left handed and I can't draw too well with my right hand
[21:18:29] <MattyMatt> good for drawing & painting, that's all
[21:19:06] <MattyMatt> oh, and I'll link pressure to Z one day, for a whittling prog :)
[21:19:25] <MattyMatt> freehand cnc
[21:19:47] <pfred1> I can't stand CAD period
[21:19:55] <MattyMatt> you could charge people to do it online
[21:20:10] <MattyMatt> then send them their results
[21:20:24] <andypugh> You probably want to link pressure to Z-current. Or better still to a load-cell and servo loop.
[21:21:11] <MattyMatt> maybe, but holding a steady pressure on the pen feels natural. that's pencil skills
[21:21:41] <pfred1> I think i could screw around some more with the pressure sensitivity I thin now it'
[21:21:52] <pfred1> I think i could screw around some more with the pressure sensitivity I think now it's 50% or 100%
[21:21:57] <MattyMatt> so a simple relationship of pressure to Z, and let the human do the PID
[21:22:12] <andypugh> The problem is that the difference in pressure between 3" and 3.01" is small.
[21:22:46] <pfred1> but it was a bit of a struggle to get it working at all so for now I'm going to just leave it alone
[21:22:53] <MattyMatt> this will only be for "art" :)
[21:23:04] <MattyMatt> aka wasting good wood
[21:23:30] <MattyMatt> woodwork for the wheelchaired
[21:23:45] <andypugh> I suppose if zero pressure is .1mm above the surface and full pressure is 3mm below, and you are carving flat stuff, then it will work
[21:24:11] <MattyMatt> yeah. only 512 levels on an aiptek anyway
[21:24:29] <andypugh> Though a load cell need not be expensive, you could glue 4 strain gauges to the machine frame and wire them to an ope-amp. Job done.
[21:24:52] <MattyMatt> wacoms new ones detect height and angle of pen
[21:25:22] <pfred1> mine sort of does height
[21:25:34] <pfred1> I can move the cursor if the pen isn't right on the tablet
[21:25:55] <pfred1> its a Graphire3
[21:26:11] <pfred1> I bought it at a yard sale for $10
[21:26:16] <MattyMatt> ah, but it won't know precisely, and accuracy falls off as you move away or tilt the pen. the new ones are full 5 axis
[21:26:34] <andypugh> Strain gauges are not at all expensive. http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=0632180
[21:26:36] <MattyMatt> yeah graphire are the cheap range that work like everyone elses
[21:26:41] <pfred1> MattyMatt but you probably can't get one for $10
[21:27:01] <pfred1> MattyMatt if you can still get them they appear to run $90 + shipping to me
[21:27:09] <MattyMatt> I got an 18" x 12 " Aiptek sent from germany for postage :)
[21:28:02] <pfred1> really I just wanted another scroll mouse out of the deal
[21:28:20] <MattyMatt> I lost my pen for my 6" one. he had got a real wacom, so he was just sending me the pen at first
[21:28:58] <MattyMatt> aiptek is fine. half the price of graphire
[21:29:10] <pfred1> MattyMatt $5 ?
[21:29:17] <MattyMatt> big real wacoms are massive price tho, especially with the airbruch addon
[21:30:13] <MattyMatt> I've got an ancient wacom with serial port :)
[21:30:25] <pfred1> they say they're easier to setup in Linux
[21:30:39] <andypugh> I need to find a more expensive chinese food delivery place. The one I just used have a £10 minimum order, and that is more food than it is sane to eat.
[21:30:59] <MattyMatt> breakfast too
[21:31:03] <pfred1> I had stuffed flounder
[21:31:13] <MattyMatt> * MattyMatt likes yesterday's chicken cashew
[21:31:23] <pfred1> the cashews get soggy
[21:31:30] <MattyMatt> mm soggy
[21:31:48] <pfred1> not that i usually like that the first go round
[21:31:58] <MattyMatt> my teeth are so bad I can't even handle a crunchy cashew
[21:32:18] <pfred1> last time I did chinese i had shrimp and brocolli
[21:33:02] <borud> any of you have any experience turning Google Sketchup-drawings into G-code? I am looking for a usable workflow.
[21:33:28] <pfred1> borud hey when you find out you be sure to let me know OK?
[21:33:30] <MattyMatt> I'm doing blender to gcode right now
[21:33:47] <pfred1> MattyMatt hows that working out for you?
[21:33:52] <borud> pfred1: I will probably be so excited about it I'll come here and make sure everyone knows :)
[21:34:12] <MattyMatt> toolpaths translate perfectly into G1 strings
[21:34:13] <borud> MattyMatt: what output format do you get from blender? DXF?
[21:34:30] <borud> MattyMatt: or does blender do G-code?
[21:34:31] <MattyMatt> I get gcode straight from blender :)
[21:34:40] <borud> wow. I didn't know that
[21:34:43] <MattyMatt> with scripts
[21:34:45] <borud> guess I should learn Blender then
[21:34:50] <MattyMatt> 2.5
[21:35:08] <pfred1> MattyMatt it comes with the scripts?
[21:35:28] <MattyMatt> no, that's what I'm writing
[21:35:51] <pfred1> I have to try Blender again lasttime I tried it I couldn't do much with it but i hear it is much different now
[21:36:10] <frallzor> ahh lovely monday
[21:36:20] <pfred1> Sun May 2 17:36:20 EDT 2010
[21:36:48] <MattyMatt> a toolpath from a blender curve isn't massively useful in itself
[21:37:01] <pfred1> MattyMatt why not?
[21:37:10] <alex_joni> Sunday May 2 2010 -- 23:36:50 +02:00
[21:37:11] <MattyMatt> now I need to make those automatically
[21:37:43] <MattyMatt> I drew a complex pocketing operation by hand :) it needs some auto generation now
[21:37:51] <frallzor> soon I can get my last bolts and nuts!
[21:38:08] <pfred1> I have so much hardware
[21:38:13] <MattyMatt> and I need to import gcode next
[21:38:26] <pfred1> frallzor I pick it up on construction jobs for free
[21:39:40] <frallzor> good for you
[21:39:59] <pfred1> frallzor yeah you wouldn't like any of the hardware i have its all standard
[21:40:32] <pfred1> 1/4-20 up to 1-8
[21:42:23] <MattyMatt> arc recognition would handy for these meshes. I wonder if I could tell it that dodecagon == circle?
[21:42:29] <borud> pfred1: what sort of hardware?
[21:42:34] <pfred1> frallzor its sick what they want to charge for hardware though
[21:42:53] <pfred1> borud nuts and bolts mostly but i have like self drilling screws and whatnot too
[21:43:17] <pfred1> borud lots of construction jobs I work if it hits the floor its garbage
[21:43:34] <frallzor> cant really say its expensive here, unless the local place only has bags with 4 of the bolts i need in each
[21:43:43] <frallzor> and they sure as hell wont have 50 bags
[21:46:17] <pfred1> frallzor I prefer fabricating with hardware as opposed to welding anymore though it comes out a lot classier I think
[21:46:43] <pfred1> sure it takes longe but I think it ultimately comes out more accurately
[21:47:06] <pfred1> I sure find it easier to adjust than welded up stuff
[21:48:50] <Dave911> andypugh: I tried to setup my encoder following stepgen via the hal you pastebin ed a couple of days ago... I could figure out how to make the transition from the stepgen to the encoder but not from the encoder back to the step gen. I don't see anyway to zero a stepgen count while I can zero the encoder count.
[21:49:58] <Dave911> I was thinking that I could use two scale functions and two mux2's to capture position but I didn't get that far. Turns out I might not need to swap feedback sources anyway due to the machine design so I dropped it for now..
[21:50:41] <Dave911> Thanks for that hal sample though. That mux2 trick to capture the position and hold is is pretty slick.
[21:50:58] <andypugh> I don't think you need to zero either. If the sample-hold is set to sample on both edges of the selector, then it should always make the two things look the same.
[21:51:41] <borud> wow. blender actually installed smoothly and started
[21:51:44] <borud> and looks responsive
[21:51:52] <borud> damn. now I have to learn it :)
[21:51:56] <pfred1> borud oh it worked like 10 years ago
[21:51:57] <andypugh> Though without knowing exactly what your setup is, it is hard to say.
[21:52:40] <borud> yeah, but last time I tried it I tried it on Linux. and I wasn't surprised when it worked.
[21:52:43] <pfred1> borud I think the codebase was originally an in house thing for a movie special effects house
[21:53:36] <borud> I did some AutoCAD stuff 20 years ago, and then more recently I've been using Sketchup a bit.
[21:54:06] <borud> I did tinker a bit with 3D Studio years and years ago, but I never had time to really learn it
[21:54:18] <pfred1> I'm a bit embarassed to admit that so far the only computer drawing program i can do anything with is xfig
[21:54:40] <borud> hehe
[21:54:43] <pfred1> I've tried a bunch more just can't make heads or tails of any of them
[21:54:49] <borud> do you draw machine parts in xfig?
[21:55:19] <pfred1> I do sketches sometimes but if I really need ot draw somethign I break out my mechanical drafting equipment
[21:55:44] <pfred1> you know t squares and triangles?
[21:56:07] <borud> pfred1: you have one of those tables with an XY-ruler thing?
[21:56:08] <pfred1> I even have a drafting machine but I don't really care for it and it sits on a shelf here
[21:56:13] <borud> have no idea what they are called in english
[21:56:39] <borud> but I took a course in school 22 years ago. mechanical drawing. mostly using that
[21:56:57] <borud> of course, today I remember nothing
[21:57:04] <pfred1> you mean like this? http://product-image.tradeindia.com/00236202/b/0/Drafting-Machine-Horizontal-Type-Front-Line-.jpg
[21:57:15] <andypugh> borud: Are you wanting to design "art" shapes, or mechanical components?
[21:57:42] <andypugh> pfred1: I thought that was called a "drawing board"
[21:57:54] <pfred1> andypugh the flat part is
[21:58:00] <borud> andypugh: both. I am still in the process of building my 3-axis machine
[21:58:12] <andypugh> I think it is all a drawing board in the UK
[21:58:16] <borud> andypugh: but I have some projects in mind
[21:58:22] <pfred1> but yeah i have a board a table and an engineering drawing box
[21:58:38] <pfred1> and a machine too
[21:58:39] <borud> andypugh: one of them is to figure out a way to scan an old seal
[21:58:56] <pfred1> mostly i use my box unless i really need a big print
[21:59:06] <KimK> andypugh: What, not a draughting (spelling?) board?
[21:59:10] <borud> andypugh: and then blow it up and see if I can machine it in wood
[21:59:12] <andypugh> You might want to look at HeeksCAD too. Or if you run Windows anywhere, I think that Alibre Design is pretty good. It drops down to a still perfectly usable free version after a month.
[21:59:50] <pfred1> CAD is someplace FOSS can't seem to make much headway in
[21:59:53] <andypugh> borud: There are ways to scan things in EMC2
[22:00:13] <andypugh> pfred1: I think that is because CAD is too hard.
[22:00:59] <borud> pfred1: well, there has been no motivation for the FOSS community to make headway in CAD
[22:01:02] <pfred1> andypugh I think it is because FOSSers aren't too interested in it
[22:01:06] <borud> pfred1: but I think that may be changing
[22:01:11] <andypugh> It is one thing to have lots of points in space, but something else to make them all depend on each other in a consistent way
[22:01:35] <pfred1> borud it is criminal what commercial software charges for some packages
[22:01:57] <borud> pfred1: a lot of people are getting very interested in home manufacturing. and though it is only in the beginning stages it won't be too long before you will see a lot of low-end commercial hardware
[22:02:00] <pfred1> borud when people bootleg their stuff I can hardly feel sorry for them really
[22:02:06] <borud> pfred1: ...that people will want to tinker with
[22:02:36] <borud> pfred1: well, software piracy isn't exactly black and white
[22:02:50] <borud> pfred1: for companies like Adobe it is their most important marketing channel
[22:02:51] <andypugh> I think Alibre ($100, sometimes) have realised that, and are looking at the high-volume low-cost concept.
[22:03:19] <pfred1> andypugh yeah $100 isn't bad but some places it's like $1,000 and up!
[22:03:26] <andypugh> Autodesk let anyone download a full version of Maya for non-commercial use.
[22:03:35] <borud> pfred1: here in Norway a complete Adobe Creative Suite costs more than the monthly salary after taxes for a well paid design professional
[22:03:45] <andypugh> I think they made Shrek with Maya
[22:04:10] <pfred1> andypugh and you'd think they'd have made their money back just with that
[22:05:12] <borud> pfred1: I can understand that a lot of CAM-software is expensive though
[22:05:16] <andypugh> I was partially correct: Q: What software was used to create Shrek?
[22:05:17] <andypugh> A: PDI, which created Shrek, mostly uses its own proprietary software (like its own Fluid Animation System) for its animated movies. However, for some elements it also took advantage of some of the powerhouse animation programs available to the public. This is particularly true with Maya, which PDI used for most of its dynamic cloth animation and for the hair of Fiona and Farquaad. Photoshop was also used quite a bit in the
[22:05:17] <andypugh> department. There was also a touch of Softimage used in the movie. But most of the software used was PDI exclusive, created by its research and development team.
[22:05:29] <borud> what I don't understand is why they do not offer free downloads for non-commercial use
[22:05:58] <pfred1> borud I guess because they like money
[22:06:00] <borud> (and I am not talking about things in the $100-$250 range. that is still well within "affordable")
[22:06:18] <andypugh> borud: http://www.mecsoft.com/freemill.shtml
[22:06:20] <borud> pfred1: nah. I think it is because they are simple minded
[22:06:53] <borud> pfred1: if you have a piece of software with a $10k price-tag then some kid playing in his basement pirating it doesn't represent a lost sale
[22:07:23] <pfred1> borud I understand
[22:07:35] <borud> pfred1: but if that kid learns the competitors package....that's a disaster, because that is what he'll get when he DOES have a use for a $10k piece of software :)
[22:08:15] <pfred1> borud they say that is why Apple donated so much to schools years ago
[22:08:18] <andypugh> I think that was Autodesk's idea with Maya. Let the dozen or so commercial users pay, but encourage kids in basements to learn how to use it. Of course kids in basments tend to run Linux and Blender.
[22:08:46] <borud> pfred1: Freemill looks interesting.
[22:09:03] <borud> andypugh: Autodesk learned their lesson
[22:09:09] <pfred1> borud when I run stuff in wine my machine acts funny
[22:09:42] <borud> andypugh: 10-12 years ago some executive at Autodesk had a major brainfart and decided that the universities needed to pay full price
[22:09:59] <pfred1> borud Universities are money mills
[22:10:04] <borud> andypugh: the local university here spent all of 3 seconds considering the deal
[22:10:22] <borud> andypugh: before they told Autodesk to go screw themselves
[22:11:00] <borud> andypugh: so Bentley Software stepped in and 3 classes of architectural students and mechanical engineers graduated after using MicroStation :)
[22:11:12] <andypugh> I have just found that Maya runs on Linux too.
[22:11:20] <pfred1> borud but could they get jobs?
[22:11:34] <frallzor> potato, potatoe
[22:11:52] <pfred1> frallzor potato, potatoes
[22:11:59] <andypugh> I learned Autodesk Inventor at a University, and it got me a full-time job.
[22:12:09] <borud> pfred1: I don't think that was ever an issue
[22:12:29] <borud> pfred1: last time I applied for a job I didn't list a single programming language on my resume
[22:12:35] <pfred1> borud I'm suprised being as acad is industry standard
[22:13:06] <borud> pfred1: the odd thing is, I haven't seen anyone use acad in 10 years
[22:13:18] <borud> pfred1: (Trondheim is a very engineering-heavy city)
[22:13:39] <pfred1> borud what does everyone use today?
[22:13:43] <andypugh> To be honest, parametric CAD packages are all pretty much of a muchness. Once you know what one can do, it is just a matter of finding where it is on another.
[22:13:49] <borud> then again, I mostly know architects and industrial designers
[22:14:19] <borud> pfred1: no idea. but I usually recognize the Autodesk-logo since I spent a lot of time using AutoCad years ago
[22:18:55] <andypugh> can you tell diff to only take notice of .c anf .h files?
[22:23:06] <pfred1> andypugh I've only ever diffed two files
[22:23:21] <pfred1> at a time that is
[22:23:55] <andypugh> I hadn't ever diffed any until 30 minutes ago. Now I have diffed several hundred more than I wanted to
[22:24:23] <pfred1> there's a neat way to make it do a side by side display but I forget how to do it just remember doing it
[22:24:41] <andypugh> I just want to create a patch file to send to somebody
[22:25:22] <andypugh> But I only want the changes in the files I have edited, not the changes made by make
[22:25:46] <pfred1> can't back the dir to pristine?
[22:26:29] <andypugh> Possibly. I don't really know much about linux
[22:26:49] <pfred1> while i have patched and see the value in it an all hey i have fiber optic I'm more likely just to get a whole new source tree today as opposed to a patch
[22:27:37] <pfred1> I think you can issue some command to make a build tree pristine again
[22:28:49] <pfred1> I tink it'd be defined in the makefile
[22:29:16] <pfred1> you know sort of like make uninstall but different
[22:35:46] <jimbo> I am getting random machine stops while I am machining. I receive no errrors or any feedback other then motion stops. If i hit the run key during one of the stops I receive an error stating that the machine is is auto mode. It only seems to happen when the spindle is on. Any ideas on what to look for?
[22:36:18] <pfred1> jimbo sounds to me like your machine may be going to sleep on you or something
[22:38:03] <jimbo> It can happen right after I start a cycle or half way thru the cycle.
[22:38:36] <andypugh> Stepper machine?
[22:38:55] <jimbo> servo with 5i20 card
[22:39:01] <andypugh> Do the numbers on the screen stop moving too?
[22:39:20] <jimbo> Yes the numbers on the screen stop as well
[22:39:46] <andypugh> Anything connected to motion-feedhold or motion-feed-override?
[22:40:00] <laserted> jimbo - do you have a 7i33 (pwm converter) inline as well?
[22:40:37] <andypugh> If was hardware I would expect a following errr
[22:41:13] <jimbo> No I have not enabled motion feed hold or motion feed override. Yes I have a 7i33 as well.
[22:41:45] <jimbo> I receive no following errors.
[22:42:29] <laserted> (true) only reaon I brought it up - my 7i33 kicked out today - logic works fine, analog doesn't.
[22:43:04] <laserted> (randomly coincidental day, of course)
[22:43:40] <jimbo> I have been trying to sort this out for bout a week.
[22:44:47] <laserted> But andy's right; if it were HW, a following error should pop up pretty quick; it does on at least my X axis (Z is in test)
[22:45:34] <andypugh> Which emc version?
[22:47:11] <jimbo> 2.3.0
[22:48:40] <andypugh> Possibly worth an email to the mailing list to see if anyone recognises the problem.
[22:49:59] <skunkworks> might there be something in dmesg?
[22:50:17] <skunkworks> 2.3.0 seems a bit old...
[22:50:44] <jimbo> I was using 2.5.0 same problem
[22:50:46] <pfred1> I htink thats what i have and its only a few months now
[22:51:12] <pfred1> skunkworks you must sell cell phones for your day job or something ...
[22:51:30] <pfred1> whats that antique you have why it must be a month old by now!
[22:52:29] <skunkworks> I vaugly remember talk about some problem with the mesa watchdog biting under certain circumstances.. but if you had the same problem with 2.5..
[22:52:57] <pfred1> not petting the watchdog is bad
[22:53:21] <skunkworks> but I might be talking out of my a$$ again
[22:53:47] <pfred1> skunkworks thats what watchdogs do if they're not pet they shut the system down
[22:54:12] <pfred1> maybe they're missing pettings due to overtiming?
[23:00:26] <jimbo> If you missed the petting of the timer EMC should pop an error as the m5i20 goes off line I would think.
[23:02:51] <skunkworks> have you looked at dmesg for $hits and grins?
[23:03:58] <jimbo> I will take a look
[23:21:46] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[23:21:49] <andypugh> You don't have a cat that is pressing the "0" key for 0% feed override?
[23:22:10] <andypugh> (no, that is 100% thinking about it)
[23:23:00] <jimbo> No cat or other critters around....
[23:26:53] <andypugh> It isn't spindle-coordinated motion that has lost the spindle speed signal? That waits very patiently? Or a similar thing with spindle-at-speed?
[23:28:57] <jimbo> No I have not tied the spindle into the system yet.
[23:31:33] <andypugh> It stops at different parts of the same programme?
[23:33:08] <andypugh> Toolchange window popping up in the background maybe?
[23:34:22] <jimbo> Yes it stops at random parts of the program. I have checked for that and it is not there.
[23:37:02] <andypugh> In the middle of G1 moves or similar, rather than anything unusual?
[23:38:17] <jimbo> Just straight x and y axis moves and sometimes on the movement of z.
[23:39:30] <andypugh> Sounds extremely odd. Do you want to pastebin the HAL file? Not that I expect that to help at all.
[23:42:05] <skunkworks> * skunkworks is thinking noise...
[23:43:15] <jimbo> http://pastebin.com/iwMts6Lc
[23:43:51] <jimbo> As In ground loop noise or high freq noise?
[23:43:51] <KimK> skunkworks: Hi, I'm way behind on keeping up with the list, so I'm not current on your accupins, how's that going?
[23:51:01] <andypugh> No, I don't see any smoking gun in the HAL file
[23:52:43] <KimK> jimbo: How big is your spindle (HP/kW)?
[23:53:11] <KimK> jimbo: And what kind of drive does it have?
[23:54:33] <skunkworks> KimK: have not had a chance to play with it.. Ended up spending most of saturday hooking up the heavy wires to all the motor start relays. what a pain. but that part is done.
[23:55:41] <KimK> Ah, yes, the whine of a happy hydraulic pump. What was that thing, 5HP?
[23:56:05] <ries> I remember I have seen a window in emc where you can set halpins true and fale to test things, but forgot the name, anyone?
[23:56:35] <andypugh> Machine-->Show Hal COnfig
[23:57:13] <andypugh> Though that way is a little clunky, you have to type setp <pin name> <value> in the window at the bottom
[23:57:50] <ries> andypugh: I have seen that, but how do I switch pins from 1 to 0 ??
[23:57:56] <ries> Ahh ok
[23:57:59] <skunkworks> as of now - it has 2 main hydraulic pumps.. both 5hp. (we think can lower that now that the servos are not running off of the 1200psi one.) the other one is a 450psi runs most everything else.
[23:58:01] <ries> I didn't red the second one :)
[23:58:12] <andypugh> It's actually nicer to do it from the command line, as then you get tab-completion and history
[23:58:58] <jimbo> 2 hp bridgeport with a Teco FM50
[23:59:19] <andypugh> ie you can just open a terminal one (or an extra one if you started emc from the command line) and type halcmd setp <pin name> <value>
[23:59:35] <andypugh> I have been doing an awful lot of that today.