#emc | Logs for 2010-04-24

[00:30:58] <calcite> I had the o-scope out today after fitting a magnetic sensor ( an automatic transmission speed sensor) and couldn't help but notice that the "noise " from the VFD is as strong as the pulse signal.
[00:31:16] <calcite> What to do? What to do?
[00:31:35] <calcite> ;-0
[00:31:35] <pfred1> calcite bypass with larg capacitors
[00:31:36] <atmega> get a better sensor
[00:31:46] <cradek> ouch, not good. maybe filter the vfd lines?
[00:32:24] <pfred1> calcite I had similar issues building some stepper motor drivers well OK all steppers are noise pigs
[00:33:07] <pfred1> calcite I found that a big enough cap would soak the noise up pretty much
[00:33:33] <calcite> perhaps it wont matter. I dug around the junk box and pulled out an old RPM-O-Meter, and thought to hook it up and see what it would do.
[00:33:59] <calcite> I have lots of caps ;-)
[00:34:39] <calcite> The RMP-O-Meter reads exactly 7200 when it's pointed at a fluor. lamp.
[00:35:41] <calcite> With the VFD disabled and the lathe coasting down, the sensor signal is clean and bright
[00:36:36] <calcite> about +/- 5 V at any reasonable RPM. The signal gets pretty small at 0-10 RPM on the spindle
[00:36:41] <pfred1> calcite most of electronics is signal conditioning
[00:37:11] <calcite> I know that but nothing more ;-)
[00:44:38] <calcite> pfred what are the ramifications of significantly "over volting" a stepper WHEN the supply has a refined current limiting capability?
[00:44:41] <icaro_> icaro_ is now known as icaro
[00:45:42] <ewlsey> you guys might be interested in this: http://www.ajaxcnc.com/downloads/266demo.exe
[00:46:03] <ewlsey> it is a simulator for centroid cnc software
[00:46:37] <ewlsey> it runs in windows and lets you get a feel for how their control works
[00:47:14] <calcite> ewlsey Your topic regading tool offsets has had some interesting comments on the forum.
[00:47:25] <pfred1> last time I ran Wine it really made my PC feel like I was actually running Windows a little too much for me
[00:48:10] <ewlsey> I hope I am not causing trouble
[00:48:23] <pfred1> ewlsey it was so badi n fact that I felt i needed to reboot when I was done with the session just to make the experience complete
[00:48:28] <calcite> perspective!
[00:49:17] <ewlsey> we need a blue death screen simulator for you pfred1
[00:49:33] <calcite> pfred how would one run an application that presently only runs in DOS or a DOS window? Does WIN do a good job there?
[00:51:25] <calcite> I have several applications for setting up older DAC and motion stuff that I keep an old WIN 2000 box for, but I would like to be rid of the entire windoze thing.
[00:51:55] <calcite> Too many machines ;-)
[00:52:21] <pfred1> dosemu?
[00:53:12] <calcite> thats from the package manager?
[00:54:08] <pfred1> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dosemu
[00:54:23] <pfred1> This package has 13 new bugs and 0 open questions.
[00:54:32] <calcite> thanx
[00:54:32] <pfred1> sounds like its better than the original to me!
[00:55:15] <ewlsey> anyone headed to NAMES this weekend?
[00:55:40] <pfred1> calcite now if your machine starts to act like you're really running a Microslop pruduct don't blame me!
[00:56:33] <calcite> O tahy
[00:57:22] <pfred1> I ran a solidworks file viewer in Wine and it was freaky
[00:59:06] <calcite> pfed do you know if the SW file viewer will xport as HP-GL? I use DWG TrueView for that purpose, but should get away from A Desk stuff too.
[01:06:53] <pfred1> calcite I don't know i haven't gotten into the whole software aspect of my project yet I would need to find things like that out once I have gotten to that stage
[01:07:14] <calcite> OK Thanks
[01:08:19] <pfred1> calcite this is all that turns up searching for HP-GL on freshmeat: http://www.gnu.org/software/hp2xx/
[01:08:52] <pfred1> sounds to me like it converts in the wrong direction to what you want
[01:09:17] <calcite> Yes, I've done those searches ;-)
[01:10:59] <pfred1> looks like there's a plugin for inkscape
[01:11:19] <pfred1> http://www.3x6.nl/inkscape_hpgl/Linux%20inkscape%20save%20as%20HPGL%20file%20for%20pen%20cutting%20plotter%20extension.html
[01:23:12] <ewlsey> have you guys seen this? : http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103639
[01:23:17] <ewlsey> nice console
[01:23:59] <pfred1> keyboard is a bit odd
[01:24:54] <ewlsey> i agree
[01:25:08] <ewlsey> how did he possibly arive at that arrangement?
[01:26:08] <pfred1> maybe its a dvorak keyboard?
[01:27:34] <ewlsey> it looks like he grouped "x y z" "i j k" and "a b c" and everything else is just filler
[01:28:18] <ewlsey> i do like the use of pokeys board though, I was not aware that it was supported
[01:39:45] <cradek> it looks odd but I think it's relatively coherent: xyz, uvw, ikj, abc, fs, on, gm are together. I'd have tried to put dh and pq together too I think
[01:40:59] <cradek> I think I'd have preferred xyz on the top or bottom row, not in the middle - easier to find if they are on an edge
[01:41:01] <ewlsey> are there any issues running the MPG through a USB port?
[01:41:02] <pfred1> I'd have just used a rugular keyboard myself
[01:41:34] <cradek> ewlsey: mpg is read and honored in realtime so it should be on realtime IO of some kind
[01:41:40] <ewlsey> I agree pfred1, or I would have
[01:42:01] <cradek> I'd have used touchy and not needed a keyboard :-)
[01:42:18] <pfred1> cradek I don't like smudged screens
[01:42:32] <ewlsey> I like your touchy interface cradek
[01:42:35] <cradek> pfred1: surprisingly it works ok. I was expecting that too.
[01:42:48] <cradek> ewlsey: thanks
[01:42:54] <DaViruz> stylus hanging in a string
[01:42:55] <ewlsey> Hurco has touchsceens now
[01:43:07] <ewlsey> I would like to try it at some point
[01:43:14] <DaViruz> would help considerably with smudging
[01:43:25] <DaViruz> most touch screens we have at work we've hung a stylus by
[01:43:42] <cradek> ewlsey: it sure fills a need we had - I tried for years to get someone to write a touchscreen gui but failed, so I had to do it myself :-)
[01:43:52] <ewlsey> has anyone seen the "mocca" gui being developed in germany?
[01:44:01] <cradek> I've seen a screenshot of it
[01:44:17] <ewlsey> I like the use of softkeys in that gui
[01:44:29] <pfred1> this is my idea of a point click and shoot interface: http://www.firstdefense.com/html/3D50.jpg
[01:44:31] <ewlsey> if it comes to fruition, I think it will be great
[01:45:02] <ewlsey> cradek, how long did it take you to create touchy?
[01:46:20] <ewlsey> the Hurco control has a stylus BTW, so they must not like smudges either
[01:46:33] <cradek> not sure. maybe a month to get the basic parts all working
[01:46:52] <ewlsey> did you use gtk?
[01:46:55] <cradek> yes
[01:47:18] <ewlsey> can you explain a bit about how the MDI works?
[01:47:27] <ewlsey> I noticed that it only has 3 letters
[01:47:41] <cradek> did you try it? it's supposed to be obvious.
[01:48:06] <ewlsey> is it available to download? I thought I would have to wait for a new release
[01:48:13] <ewlsey> no I have not tried it
[01:48:38] <cradek> you can build and try 2.4 or master from git
[01:49:11] <cradek> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2#Getting_the_source_with_git
[01:49:55] <ewlsey> you said in the forum post that program limits are not calculated, does that mean that soft limits will not work? or does it just mean that if the program is too large it will hit the soft limit?
[01:50:38] <cradek> I don't recall making a forum post - do you have a url?
[01:50:48] <cradek> soft limits definitely work with touchy
[01:51:38] <cradek> not sure though - it may let you start a program that has a limits violation much later in the program
[01:51:41] <ewlsey> it looks like it was made on your behalf : http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92072
[01:51:45] <DaViruz> the mdi is realy intuitive once you try it
[01:51:50] <DaViruz> me likes
[01:52:11] <cradek> thanks, that was the most challenging part and I think I nailed it too :-)
[01:52:53] <DaViruz> i have patched mine a little to deal with some scaling issues when run att full screen on an 800x600 display
[01:53:27] <DaViruz> the window was too large until i opened and closed the font selection window
[01:53:59] <cradek> ewlsey: I read that whole thread and I don't see any mention of soft limits
[01:54:22] <cradek> DaViruz: yeah if you pick your fonts correctly, you can run on any size screen - it is totally scalable.
[01:54:53] <ewlsey> I was just checking on soft limits since there is a warning that program extents not being calculated
[01:54:57] <DaViruz> problem was the window had the wrong size at startup
[01:55:14] <DaViruz> but if i changed font, even though i changed to the same font, the window would scale to correct size
[01:55:51] <cradek> DaViruz: huh. what was the fix? I haven't seen this problem. are you running an up to date version?
[01:56:05] <DaViruz> from git a couple of weeks back
[01:56:16] <DaViruz> i'll fire up the machine and see what i did
[01:56:51] <ewlsey> if one were to hook up a keyboard, could programs and the tool table be edited on the machine?
[01:59:27] <cradek> ewlsey: sure, you could use any program to edit text files. touchy doesn't take over, it's just an application like everything else.
[02:01:30] <ewlsey> would you have to reload the table some way like Axis?
[02:04:16] <ewlsey> also, why would you need to use "unhome"?
[02:05:06] <cradek> ewlsey: yes there's a button to reload the tool table
[02:05:37] <cradek> you don't have to unhome very often, especially a machine with real homing and soft limits
[02:06:08] <ewlsey> cradek: I have a touchscreen somewhere, I will dig it out and see if I can get this working.
[02:06:09] <DaViruz> no network access, that made things difficult but not impossible
[02:07:05] <DaViruz> cradek: http://daviruz.meeep.net/touchy.diff
[02:07:30] <DaViruz> really only the first block is whats neccesary
[02:07:36] <DaViruz> the second is me being clumsy
[02:07:45] <DaViruz> and the third is to fix some issues specific to my setup
[02:09:43] <DaViruz> (i never really found the cause of the issue, i just told the program to do what i did manually to fix it)
[02:11:38] <cradek> sorry, what's the symptom exactly?
[02:12:08] <DaViruz> when touchy starts the window woule be approx 100 pixels to wide to fit the screen
[02:12:23] <cradek> ok
[02:12:25] <DaViruz> opening the font selector and clicking ok (without changing font) fixed it
[02:12:38] <cradek> latest has a self.setfont() on line 127. does yours have that?
[02:12:44] <DaViruz> yes
[02:13:28] <DaViruz> (i'm not submitting this as a fix or anything)
[02:14:07] <cradek> I wish I understood why it fixes it... if it makes it work right for you, there must be something to it
[02:14:29] <DaViruz> i'm running it without a window manager, i'm guessing that's part of the problem
[02:14:31] <cradek> if you take out the one on line 127 does it still look right?
[02:14:55] <cradek> oh that's what makes maximize not work?
[02:15:01] <DaViruz> can't test right now, i don't have a screen hooked up the the graphics board configured in X
[02:15:08] <cradek> darn
[02:15:09] <DaViruz> yeah, probably
[02:15:45] <DaViruz> http://daviruz.meeep.net/gallery2/v/eye-fi-dump/IMG_1786.JPG.html
[02:15:48] <DaViruz> the setup is somewhat novel
[02:15:55] <DaViruz> :)
[02:16:28] <cradek> novel and unfinished!
[02:19:08] <DaViruz> i'll hook the lcd up to it tomorrow and check what happens if i comment out the setfont call at line 127. i have to get some sleep now, it's 04:19 in the night here..
[02:19:24] <cradek> goodnight, thanks
[02:20:30] <ewlsey> cradek: what is a function of "unhome" (sound self explanitory)
[02:22:37] <cradek> well it puts the joint back in the state it starts, before you homed it
[02:22:50] <cradek> the biggest effect is soft limits go away
[02:24:11] <ewlsey> when would one use that?
[02:24:51] <cradek> on a machine without home switches it's somewhat easy to home in the wrong place -- and if you do, sometimes you can't jog to the right place anymore
[02:25:15] <cradek> like a machine with index-only or eyeball-only homing
[02:25:29] <ewlsey> ok
[02:25:30] <cradek> without unhome, you'd have to restart emc
[02:25:39] <ewlsey> like an old fadal
[02:25:55] <cradek> do they do index-only (line up marks by eye then home)?
[02:26:36] <pfred1> andypugh hey there
[02:26:46] <andypugh> Hi
[02:27:03] <andypugh> That will teach me to install an XP partition on my Mac..
[02:27:16] <pfred1> andypugh you're kooky
[02:27:24] <ewlsey> on a fadal (88 or 88HS) you "park" the machine in a cold start position by lining up two marks on each axis, the machine then knows how far it can go from that mark
[02:27:43] <pfred1> andypugh most just use a flail when they want to self abuse
[02:27:55] <andypugh> I want to run a CAD package.
[02:28:01] <ewlsey> It is pretty funky, and can get you in all kinds of trouble if you do not "cold start" correctly
[02:28:34] <pfred1> Linux does appear to need to get on the stick with creating a decent CAD package doesn't it?
[02:28:50] <ewlsey> you can run Catia on unix...
[02:29:08] <pfred1> ewlsey is it FOSS?
[02:29:13] <andypugh> Yeah, they do at work. And Unigraphics. Both are not inexpensive
[02:29:15] <ewlsey> at least V4 would
[02:29:24] <ewlsey> only $40k
[02:29:26] <cradek> there's a free (as in freedom) version of qcad
[02:29:36] <cradek> I don't know if it's any good - reports are mixed - I don't use it
[02:30:22] <andypugh> I bought Alibre. It is cheap enough and good enough, but Win only. I have been running it in VMWare, but just decided to make a boot partition on my Mac for it.
[02:30:36] <pfred1> I was checking out a page earlier tonight that had links to various CAD packages that work in Linux and ot looked like the field of broken dreams to me
[02:30:53] <andypugh> HeeksCAD might get there.
[02:31:38] <ewlsey> there is a free 2D version of solidedge, but for windows only
[02:32:06] <pfred1> doesn't do me any good I don't do Windows
[02:33:24] <cradek> sounds like it depends whether you're looking for libre or gratis "free"
[02:34:58] <pfred1> I've bought plenty of software in the past but have gotten out of the habit lately
[02:35:17] <pfred1> past that without code one can be left feeling high and dry sometimes
[02:35:41] <andypugh> I just wanted inexpensive and functional. Alibre was $89 and is about 80% as good as Autodesk Inventor. (And I rather like Inventor)
[02:36:25] <ewlsey> inventor solids are pretty good
[02:36:47] <ewlsey> no one can beat solidworks for sketching (autotrim is awesome)
[02:37:20] <ewlsey> and I think Catia is pretty incredible with surface moldeling, but the learning curve is vertical
[02:37:57] <pfred1> ewlsey I'm sure someone can and will eventually
[02:39:19] <ewlsey> pfred1 not sure I follow
[02:39:29] <pfred1> 22:36 < ewlsey> no one can beat solidworks for sketching (autotrim is awesome)
[02:42:11] <ewlsey> I demoed spaceclaim at work a while back. It is an interesting take on solidmodeling. It is based on pushing and pulling like google sketchup. Here: http://www2.spaceclaim.com/
[02:42:50] <ewlsey> it is not powerfull enough for what we do, but for a more moderate user it would be awesome
[02:43:01] <andypugh> Any comparison to Sketchup is a bad start for me. I want things to be of specific sizes
[02:44:01] <ewlsey> you can constrain shapes in spaceclaim. you can type in values in sketchup BTW
[02:44:19] <andypugh> Yes, but I like to solve parametric sketches
[02:44:24] <ewlsey> it will change those values if you push or pull something though
[02:45:05] <andypugh> Anyone know how to set up the hall sensors on a BLDC?
[02:45:34] <andypugh> I think I got it wrong.
[02:46:45] <ewlsey> andypugh it is interesting what is happening with CAD right now. Back in the day noting was parametric, and you have to start over to edit a shape. Now we have constraints and everyting is supposed to update and be parametric. But what I see is that CAD is swingin back to be not parametric. NX and Catia now have "direct editing" which is a fancy way to say there is no history tree and shapes are not parametric.
[02:48:04] <andypugh> I have a feeling that when the table I have for an existing motor says "this hall and that hall = this phase high and that phase low" then reversing it by saying "Where is the motor with that phase high and that phase low, I will set up the halls to match" has left me with a motor that is very good at staying stationary
[02:48:42] <andypugh> Hmmm, But if I want that diameter, and that wall thickness, that far from that other thing, then parametric is good.
[02:49:07] <andypugh> Inventor has always let you not bother restraining, and allowed you to drag stuff though.
[02:50:27] <andypugh> I used AutoCAD Mechanical Desktop, that was like a particularly hard logic puzzle. You couldn't extrude, revolve etc any sketch until it was fully constrained. If you tried it would say "The sketch needs 4 more constraints" but give you absolutely no clue as to where or what needed constraining how.
[02:51:13] <ewlsey> direct editing allows you to add dimension contraints, the difference fromt he current method is that when you change a part shape only the new change has to update. With catia, changing one thing at the top of the history tree requires every feature below it to update, regardless of whether it changed.
[02:52:48] <andypugh> Eeew! No, Neither Inventor nor Alibre seem to require that, or hide it if they do.
[02:53:21] <ewlsey> heh, catia is a special form a torture
[02:53:46] <pfred1> ewlsey andypugh seems to be into that sort of thing to me
[02:54:01] <ewlsey> whatever trips your trigger
[02:54:58] <andypugh> Anyway, I should sleep.
[04:16:38] <cliffb> Servo motors arrived today.. can't wait to test them out.. http://www.powerautomation.net/mainpage/images/stories/CNC/IMG_0188.jpg
[04:20:37] <cliffb> anyone here using emc for plasma cutting?
[04:32:16] <KimK> cliffb: Yes, several people, I think. And at least Mesa (maybe others?) offer a THC (torch height control) DC voltage input card with very high isolation voltage.
[04:34:05] <elmo401> skunkworks: that mach3 MPG video you posted... wow, latency! I hug my realtime as well :)
[04:34:16] <cliffb> I saw that one, but I see it just came out a little while ago, How were most people getting the Arc Voltage into emc before?
[04:34:20] <elmo401> but... I have yet to include an MPG in my system. LOL
[04:48:33] <KimK> cliffb: Sorry, I don't know. But I would guess you could use any n-bit binary A/D converter (with sufficient isolation, maybe opto?) and bring the bits in through HAL one-at-a-time and reassemble them into a number/value?
[04:49:47] <cliffb> Yeah, I was just browsing the supported EMC hardware, looks like the only analog input solutions are home built or $500+.. Too bad the 8 axis mesa isn't supported yet.
[04:50:22] <cliffb> I will most likely just purchase mesa's voltage to freq converter.
[04:50:31] <KimK> Wow, you need 8 axes?
[04:50:50] <cliffb> no... It just also has 8 analog in for a decent price..
[04:50:58] <KimK> Ah, OK
[04:51:08] <cliffb> That would be some plasma...
[04:51:13] <KimK> Single torch?
[04:51:38] <cliffb> yeah, 1 plasma, 1 oxy.
[04:52:49] <KimK> Sounds good, how big a sheet? (assuming only one torch in use, I mean)
[04:53:19] <cliffb> The table is 8x4.5' cutting area.
[04:53:55] <KimK> OK, so 4x8 sheets are no problem, nice.
[04:54:27] <cliffb> yeah I made sure I built it for that. Still more work to go tho..
[04:54:44] <KimK> Got any pictures posted?
[04:55:59] <KimK> I saw your earlier picture of the electronics laying on the table, nice assortment
[04:56:17] <cliffb> http://www.powerautomation.net random thoughts and some photos of projects I've worked on..
[04:56:56] <cliffb> what are you using emc with?
[04:57:21] <KimK> And the linear round-ways too, I noticed the timing pulleys on the servos, are you using a timing belt for a rack and pinion replacement?
[04:57:57] <cliffb> No... I acuired them from an old CNC table being parted out, that just what they used.
[04:58:33] <cliffb> I am going to use rack and pinion.. It's just plasma and more than accurate enough.
[05:01:26] <KimK> Myself, nothing (yet). But I'm helping several friends get their machines going. A pair of Bridgeport IIa NC's using steppers and pico-systems; A pair of Kasuga CNC knee mills with Dana/Summit bolt-on tool changer (formerly Bandit control) now on Mesa. And some others too.
[05:02:26] <KimK> I may do a pair of old wire EDMs, so I may be looking for voltage input too, we'll see. Not sure about those yet.
[05:05:19] <cliffb> Yeah, I would like to know how the SPI driver is coming so Mesa's card will work, 8 analog out+in 8 encoder is a nice setup which will do just about anything.
[05:08:16] <KimK> Yes, I guess all the Mesa fans are watching that one. I think there's a 15 ft limit on SPI though, isn't there? So maybe not usable everywhere, but certainly usable lots of places. And you could always go traditional mounting with everything in the control box and wire out from there, I suppose.
[05:13:28] <cliffb> Yeah 15ft should be enough in most cases..
[05:34:04] <ds3> okay, ABS is not a nice material to cut :(
[05:34:22] <Jymmm> sure it is, using a chain saw
[05:34:26] <WalterN> why?
[05:34:43] <Jymmm> becasue it melts faster than the chips can be pulled away
[05:35:51] <WalterN> I mean
[05:35:54] <WalterN> oh
[05:36:15] <WalterN> never had that problem
[05:36:37] <Jymmm> you've never machined ABS =)
[05:42:43] <WalterN> I think I have, but cant say for sure
[05:42:59] <toastydeath> push huge chip loads and low speeds in plastic
[05:42:59] <WalterN> once or twice maybe, for something super special
[05:43:03] <toastydeath> if you are having melt problems
[05:43:42] <Valen> KimK you could make a line driver/converter from SPI to other things without too much difficulty, might have to drop the speed a little
[05:44:10] <Valen> for plastics you need a different cutter geometry to metals
[05:44:20] <Valen> you want a sharp cutter, cut it like a knife
[05:44:30] <Valen> doesn't get hot then
[06:07:08] <ds3> warpagee
[06:07:55] <cliffb> warpagee?
[06:08:27] <KimK> War Page E ?
[06:08:38] <ds3> yez
[06:08:48] <ds3> acrylic cuts much nicer
[06:09:31] <KimK> Ah, warpage ?
[06:10:43] <KimK> Valen: Yes, thanks, I could do that. But probably not needed, we'll see. Thanks though.
[06:10:53] <ds3> yes
[06:11:51] <cliffb> Acrylic is pretty fun to cut with a laser too... :)
[06:13:51] <ds3> this is witha laser
[06:14:37] <cliffb> really.. that was just a random think I found out... nice
[06:14:56] <ds3> the abs didn't behave nicely
[06:17:34] <cliffb> Yeah, I tried cutting quite a few things.. just for the hell of course.. Seeing how deep of a hole you can make in wood is always fun. Is this a personal laser?
[06:17:50] <ds3> I guess
[06:32:10] <cliffb> ds3: Is it a CO2? I would like to know where you purchased the tube if it is.
[06:48:30] <ds3> cliffb: yes, it is CO2... I got it as a demo unit
[06:48:58] <ds3> Gcode makes programming it quite nice
[06:50:11] <cliffb> I built one a while ago, but there were too many issues to use it on a CNC and it got put on the backburner.. I like to get a sealed unit one day.
[06:51:30] <ds3> built the laser? as in blew the glass and everything?
[06:52:22] <cliffb> I used a plastic outer cooling jacket, made the heads out of aluminum and plastic on the lathe... so minimal glass work but yeah..
[06:52:33] <ds3> nice
[06:53:37] <cliffb> yeah.. that was a fun one... just wish I totally finished it.
[19:05:05] <ChanServ> [#emc] "This is the #emc channel - talk related to the Enhanced Machine Controller and general machining. Website: http://www.linuxcnc.org/, wiki at http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/"
[19:06:58] <morficmobile> i admit, i am glad we don't touch off anything on our Fanuc control, i would hate it, if EMC works as described, yay.
[19:29:41] <morficmobile> is it common for emc2 to lock up ubuntu when it's run inside virtual box (in case anyone remembers trying it that way before putting it on actual hardware)
[19:30:14] <andypugh> I admit I don't know any better, but EMC touch-off works fine for me, except when I touch off the system when I meant to touch off the tool but forgot to choose the right option.
[19:30:48] <andypugh> I run EMC2 and Ubuntu in VMware on a Mac with no problems.
[19:31:49] <morficmobile> andypugh: i am not commenting on emc touch off at all, from how it sounds, "it's how it should be"
[19:32:54] <andypugh> Ah, it's touching-off in general you dislike? I can go along with that, I intend to make a probe.
[19:34:00] <andypugh> Right, before I go to any trouble and actually do it, should I put my Arduino-based Resolver-Encoder convertor on the Wiki or not?
[19:34:40] <morficmobile> andypugh: no, the way it works on this fanuc in our shop, i hate that, never disliked it on our Haas.
[19:35:06] <andypugh> Ah, OK.
[19:55:37] <morficmobile> i eventually got it working (never touched off in this shop, trie to tie the presetter to machine w/o needing a G52 shift, not even touching them on Z0 would make it work, only touching both tool and Z0 inside machine works
[19:56:22] <morficmobile> so being able to use numbers from presetter in EMC tool table and them working after using one of them to set Z0, that would be a step up :)
[19:57:57] <JT-Hardinge> that works too
[20:16:07] <cliffb> elmo401: Yes.. All home built.. Those servo's are for one axis.. I think over a hp with a max speed of 550ipm should be ok.
[20:17:56] <cliffb> I do need a better MB tho.
[20:41:54] <andypugh> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?ResolverToQuadratureConverter
[21:15:04] <elmo401> morficmobile: touch-off what with the Fanuc? tool length? No tool probe on that machine?
[21:15:56] <elmo401> I love the Mazak I work on. everything can be automated. if I load 10 tools I can say 'probe tools 4 - 13' and it will do so.
[21:16:26] <elmo401> and use the probe to find the center of rotation of the work piece.
[21:35:27] <frallzor> hmmm to drill or not to drille the table with my spindle...
[21:36:10] <andypugh> Generally the answer is "not" so I suspect a rather more specific question
[21:38:15] <frallzor> well I can to it without a problem, just a Q for myself =)
[21:38:23] <frallzor> make g-code or just do it by hand
[21:38:28] <frallzor> *to = do
[21:38:48] <andypugh> Ah, you mean _deliberately_ drill the table?
[21:38:55] <frallzor> yes
[21:39:04] <frallzor> for fastening purposes
[21:39:10] <andypugh> G-code loop.
[21:39:23] <andypugh> I am surprised you can resist.
[21:39:49] <frallzor> just an issue on how much force It take to drill mdf + few mm Alu
[21:40:03] <frallzor> and which feed is possible
[21:40:17] <andypugh> Do it in G-code you get better at G-code, you get a perfectly neat job, you test the system and you can wander off and drink beer while it happens.
[21:40:37] <frallzor> 18k rpm doesnt really scream "drill alu" =)
[21:40:44] <andypugh> Drill a dummy piece first?
[21:41:07] <andypugh> What diameter?
[21:41:35] <frallzor> 7-8mm
[21:42:28] <frallzor> would be neat though if I could get it done like that, and then place a countersink tool to make it super nice for the heads of the screws
[21:43:44] <andypugh> 18k rpm @ 8mm dia = 450 m/min
[21:44:15] <andypugh> That's quite high, as 100m/min is normal, but maybe not too ludicrous.
[21:44:41] <frallzor> well I work at 10000mm/min
[21:44:55] <frallzor> so it seems like shit in my pants then
[21:45:22] <andypugh> Perhaps you mean 10000mm/s?
[21:45:32] <frallzor> nope
[21:46:01] <andypugh> 10m/min? Seems very low
[21:46:22] <frallzor> 167mm/s that is
[21:46:50] <frallzor> im betting you got something mixed up now :P
[21:47:03] <andypugh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speeds_and_feeds
[21:47:44] <andypugh> Says 100 m/min for alu, with a HSS cutter. Higher with carbide.
[21:48:10] <andypugh> You aren't thinking of feeds rather than speeds are you?
[21:48:22] <frallzor> im talking feed =)
[21:48:35] <andypugh> I was talking surface speed.
[21:48:54] <frallzor> that explains alot then
[21:49:06] <elmo401> $$450/25.4$$
[21:49:08] <andypugh> ie how fast the tool goes round for a specific diameter
[21:49:15] <elmo401> oops.
[21:49:28] <toastydeath> irc would be a little better if it supported latex
[21:49:47] <frallzor> if I go down to 12000rpm
[21:49:58] <elmo401> andypugh: surface speed is one thing. the more accurate way we do it (with facemills and such) is chip load per flute.
[21:49:58] <frallzor> wonder if the torque would be enough
[21:50:59] <andypugh> elmo401: I don't get that technical, I am still at the stage of "turn it up till you get scared"
[21:51:29] <frallzor> wonder if its worth trying drilling with 18k rpm
[21:52:14] <andypugh> I would say "yes" on a practice sample. Just a scrap of MDF and Alu somewhere above the table. If it works, do the real thing.
[21:52:30] <toastydeath> that's quite a bit of speed
[21:52:33] <toastydeath> for drilling
[21:52:48] <andypugh> Yeah, I would want to be using a carbide drill.
[21:53:03] <toastydeath> if you have to do it that fast, you are going to have to peck a lot
[21:53:12] <toastydeath> so that the chips don't have a chance to melt
[21:53:36] <andypugh> Though, in persective, I wanted 400m/min for the last bit of lathe machining I did.
[21:54:03] <toastydeath> turning and milling are way different than drilling insofar as chip evacuation goes, and so the normally ultra-high speed of aluminum goes away
[21:54:16] <toastydeath> when you're going to be drilling THAT fast, you are going to have to peck
[21:54:20] <frallzor> oh bugger
[21:54:24] <frallzor> or maybe not
[21:54:31] <frallzor> not alu where im drilling
[21:54:33] <toastydeath> and i mean peck like, every .50"
[21:54:34] <toastydeath> er
[21:54:34] <frallzor> steel
[21:54:36] <toastydeath> .050"
[21:54:42] <toastydeath> you're drilling STEEL?
[21:54:54] <frallzor> 3-4mm steel
[21:55:32] <toastydeath> you're actually talking about friction welding a drill bit to your workpiece, then
[21:55:34] <andypugh> Hmm, in that case let the CNC drill the MDF so that the holes are neatly placed, then finish through by hand.
[21:55:58] <toastydeath> because you shouldn't be going any faster than 2000 rpm for that size bit
[21:55:59] <andypugh> Or mount a power drill on the Z
[21:55:59] <toastydeath> 8mm
[21:56:08] <toastydeath> with an hss bit
[21:56:16] <toastydeath> and no flood coolant
[21:56:34] <cradek> 8mm, 18krpm, steel?
[21:56:48] <toastydeath> yes
[21:56:51] <cradek> that's not gonna work :-)
[21:57:10] <andypugh> Ideal application for the yet-to-be-invented solid CBN drill bit.
[21:57:32] <frallzor> CBN? =)
[21:57:44] <cradek> heh, that's like 20x too fast
[21:57:47] <toastydeath> cubic boron nitride, it's diamond for ferrous material
[21:57:56] <cradek> if you try it, make a video!
[21:58:01] <andypugh> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIMEPkK-Doc
[22:00:18] <toastydeath> i mean at that speed you're best off getting an appropriately sized dremel grinding bit
[22:00:24] <toastydeath> and just very slowly plunging it
[22:00:32] <toastydeath> and building a little water puddle
[22:00:38] <toastydeath> with clay or something
[22:01:00] <andypugh> I guess you are talking a matrix of hundreds of holes?
[22:02:02] <frallzor> 100 tops
[22:02:15] <toastydeath> you're not going to get even one at 12k, much less 18
[22:02:31] <andypugh> Hmm, I am looking through the EMC2 source in XCode (the MacOS dev system.) Does that mean I am going to go to hell?
[22:03:35] <andypugh> Anyway, I repeat my suggestion of mounting a conventional drill on you spindle.
[22:03:44] <andypugh> (or instead of)
[22:03:51] <frallzor> no can do, too much to disassemble then
[22:03:59] <frallzor> for that =)
[22:04:05] <frallzor> rather do it by hand then
[22:04:19] <andypugh> Are you convinced that you will never have to drill any more holes?
[22:04:26] <frallzor> yup
[22:04:34] <frallzor> in steel
[22:05:08] <andypugh> I would still drill the MDF by CNC, even if just to make a nice neat set of starter holes.
[22:05:29] <frallzor> might aswell do that by hand too
[22:05:42] <toastydeath> how accurate do these holes have to be
[22:05:48] <frallzor> not really
[22:05:51] <frallzor> just for attaching
[22:05:54] <toastydeath> oh
[22:06:06] <andypugh> You will be looking at them while the machine is running. Trust me, you want them neat.
[22:07:19] <andypugh> You are likely to spend a lot of time watching the machine, and I have found a lot of that time is spent thinking of ways I could have done stuff better.
[22:07:40] <frallzor> they wont even be seen =)
[22:07:47] <frallzor> im not superman :P
[22:07:54] <frallzor> spoilboard on top
[22:08:07] <cradek> no T slots?
[22:08:19] <andypugh> Ah, well, in that case just use "No More Nails"
[22:08:19] <frallzor> the spoilboard will be making the slots
[22:11:07] <frallzor> "no more nails"?
[22:11:44] <andypugh> http://www.makingdiyeasier.co.uk/unibond/nomorenails.html
[22:11:51] <frallzor> seems like a bad idea not to bolt it at all :)
[22:13:27] <andypugh> Yes, I was not being entirely serious :-)
[22:14:02] <elmo401> just use a spot drill to make even spacing. then do it manually later.
[22:15:10] <elmo401> andypugh: the stage of 'turn it up until you get scared' is high at my place with 2400 IPM !
[22:15:42] <andypugh> Yes, in your case I would advocate a different approach to mine.
[22:16:06] <andypugh> My machine is pitiful and bends like a wet noodle.
[22:17:16] <frallzor> drilling the table isnt that painful, only 50 holes it seems =)
[22:17:30] <frallzor> and I can just climb up on the table and sit there and drill :P
[22:18:25] <andypugh> Nah, tape a chair to the Spindle, sit on that and drill, as EMC2 takes you to the right place.
[22:26:36] <elmo401> lol
[22:26:46] <elmo401> I do suggest using the machine to do the job
[22:27:00] <elmo401> with MDF there is no problem using 24k RPM
[22:27:08] <elmo401> or 12k
[22:28:20] <elmo401> but, if you want to do it manually... use a 12mm drill bit in the spindle to make spots on the table. that way you will already have a nice chamfer in an accurate spacing for you to manually drill them
[22:31:13] <frallzor> http://pici.se/p/qRVwMCSxV/?size=fullsize will probably go down this road anyway with mdf
[22:31:27] <frallzor> seems strong enough after testing
[22:32:09] <frallzor> about 10 screws in every part
[22:32:39] <andypugh> Have you considered a vacuum table?
[22:32:58] <frallzor> yup
[22:33:23] <frallzor> a proper pump for this size is waaay to pricey
[22:34:20] <andypugh> Just get a long hose and tie it to a weather balloon.
[22:36:06] <andypugh> (Actually, I _do_ know that that wouldn't work.) But I don't think you need that much "vacuum" or even that much flow.
[22:36:56] <elmo401> frallzor: won't take my method? using the machine to make a nice hole pattern for you to manually drill?
[22:37:08] <elmo401> I still see no reason to not drill it all with your machine.
[22:37:11] <andypugh> The difference between the highest possible vacuum and a low vacuum is about a factor of two.
[22:37:14] <elmo401> max RPM, max feed
[22:38:04] <frallzor> I see no reason to do double the work :)
[22:38:17] <frallzor> still need to drill by hand in the end
[22:38:55] <andypugh> (I have had really quite clever engineers exhibiting concern that the vacuum chamber currently at 10E-6 bar might not take the extra stress of 10E-9 Bar. )
[22:39:23] <andypugh> frallzor: See it as a machine and system test too.
[22:39:46] <frallzor> pretty sure what ive done up til now is better tests :P
[22:40:14] <andypugh> In any case frallzor, If you had started when you asked the question you would be finished now...
[22:40:28] <frallzor> nope, cant do it today =)
[22:40:33] <frallzor> so not really ;)
[22:43:28] <frallzor> if going vacuum, recommended pumps for this size costs like half my build :P
[22:45:32] <elmo401> frallzor: why drill by hand in the end?
[22:45:34] <andypugh> Yes, but non-reccomended pumps might well work. Like all the scrap vacuum cleaners from the local dump duct-taped together
[22:46:13] <andypugh> elmo401: Because we decided 18k rpm on an 8mm drill through steel was a bad plan.
[22:46:27] <elmo401> I thought he said MDF and AL ?
[22:46:39] <frallzor> was steel =)
[22:46:39] <elmo401> where did steel come into play?
[22:46:41] <andypugh> He looked more arefully
[22:46:47] <elmo401> oh...
[22:46:47] <frallzor> but even Al wouldnt work
[22:46:51] <elmo401> why not
[22:47:01] <frallzor> too fast =)
[22:47:03] <elmo401> not with HSS.
[22:47:11] <elmo401> but with Carbide it would be fine
[22:47:19] <elmo401> even Cobalt drills will handle that speed
[22:47:31] <andypugh> At 8mm? Through steel?
[22:47:36] <elmo401> no, Al
[22:47:41] <elmo401> keep up andypugh ;)
[22:49:31] <andypugh> I just dumped the whole EMC source tree into Xcode, and it's great. Mainly for the click-and-go-to-definition of functions and types.
[22:59:05] <frallzor> doblesided tape will do until I decide on a permanent system for attaching pieces
[22:59:29] <mxe> hi everyone. anybody running a sable 2015?
[23:02:59] <andypugh> I wonder what a Sable 2015 is?
[23:05:57] <andypugh> Google knows, it's a little CNC router that costs $500 from eBay
[23:09:11] <andypugh> Looks like a bargain at that price. (I wouldn't have said that a year ago, but I have spent twice that in incidental stuff from RS for mine)
[23:09:12] <andypugh> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62815&page=1
[23:23:19] <Optic> hmm my friend is looking to set up a small shop for making aluminum control panels
[23:24:17] <Optic> stuff like this: http://www.doepfer.de/A1871.gif
[23:24:29] <Optic> out of 1/16" aluminum sheets
[23:24:39] <Optic> is a vertical mill the right tool? :)
[23:25:20] <andypugh> A laser might be better.
[23:25:33] <andypugh> Maybe a plasma..
[23:25:35] <Optic> a laser to cut that stock is pretty pricy
[23:26:00] <Optic> this would be a home/hobby setup, very small runs
[23:26:04] <andypugh> You asked what the "right" tool was.
[23:26:09] <Optic> I did :)
[23:26:54] <Optic> let me rephrase the question :)
[23:27:43] <andypugh> I am no expert, but it sounds more like a job for a gantry miller/router than a vertical mill. They tend to have relatively narrow beds and you are paying for Z capacity that you will never use.
[23:28:05] <Optic> hmmm
[23:28:08] <Optic> yes, that makes sense
[23:28:56] <andypugh> I think commercially such things would be CNC punched.
[23:29:00] <Optic> there doesn't need to be precision in the Z
[23:29:05] <Optic> andy: yes, I think they would be
[23:30:01] <Optic> andy: can you think of any brands/keywords for me to google?
[23:30:13] <andypugh> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UjW4G8Ihqs
[23:31:12] <Optic> andy: elmood is my friend looking to make some control panels ;)
[23:31:20] <elmood> hi
[23:31:20] <elmood> !
[23:31:30] <andypugh> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UjW4G8Ihqs
[23:31:33] <Optic> we were looking at the little sherline mills
[23:31:39] <andypugh> But that looks like a lot of money
[23:31:43] <elmood> yes
[23:32:13] <elmood> i want to make small stuff from 1/16" aluminum
[23:32:23] <andypugh> A lot of people make their own CNC plama cutters.
[23:32:37] <Optic> we converted a laser engraver to work with emc last year
[23:32:40] <Optic> it was a fun project
[23:33:32] <elmood> i don't even know how plasma cutters work
[23:33:33] <elmood> hehe
[23:33:37] <andypugh> That Youtube link is fun to watch. It wouldn't be all that hard to make your own CNC punch.
[23:34:07] <Optic> we have good knowledge of how to get emc2 moving a machine around, just not of how to make holes in metal
[23:34:26] <elmood> * elmood is an electronics guy
[23:34:40] <elmood> but the enclosure parts are the hardest bit of any project
[23:36:03] <andypugh> A plasma cutter is like a cross between a TIG welder and a traditional cutting torch. It uses an arc to melt the metal, and a compressed air stream to blast it away.
[23:36:28] <andypugh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_cutter
[23:36:45] <elmood> reading that page :)
[23:37:02] <elmood> so is the idea to mount a plasma torch on a CNC table?
[23:37:16] <andypugh> You can buy a plasma cutter for a few hundred $, and mount it onto any X-Y system you can find or build
[23:37:22] <elmood> ah
[23:37:23] <elmood> cool
[23:37:58] <andypugh> But a Puma or similar robot is the coolest looking way. (EMC can drive them too)
[23:38:04] <elmood> hehe
[23:38:21] <elmood> do you know anything about finishing processes for aluminum?
[23:38:39] <andypugh> A very small amount.
[23:38:56] <elmood> ok
[23:39:06] <andypugh> I used to have components anodised in various styles.
[23:39:37] <andypugh> You want danimal really, but he is not on line
[23:39:46] <elmood> cool
[23:42:15] <andypugh> eBay is full of these combined TIG / MMA welders that are also plasma cutters, but I have no idea if they are any good.
[23:42:16] <andypugh> http://cgi.ebay.com/BRAND-NEW-CT520D-TIG-ARC-STICK-MMA-WELDER-PLASMA-CUTTER-/110514142997?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19bb27ff15
[23:42:55] <DaViruz> i have a chinese 200A ac/dc tig from ebay
[23:43:14] <DaViruz> i was adviced against getting one with combined plasma because they were said to be prone to failure
[23:43:21] <DaViruz> but i don't know if there is any truth to it
[23:43:33] <elmood> hmm
[23:43:38] <andypugh> But those all need an external compressor. Devices like http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-110V-Plasma-Cutter-System-w-Built-Compressor-/260582384626?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cabeba3f2#ht_500wt_897 might be more use to you (built in compressor)
[23:44:10] <andypugh> In fact, I have just decided that I need one of them myself.
[23:44:50] <elmood> what is the gas used?
[23:44:53] <elmood> just compressed air?
[23:45:23] <andypugh> I also have a chinese ac/dc TIG and it has been great on the half a dozen times I have used it. Paying £20 for the gas bottle hire hurts.
[23:45:34] <skunkworks> I wonder if they have gotten any better... Dad bought one that didn't have the built in compressor - but similar. It didn't work the greateds.
[23:45:41] <andypugh> And yes, plasma cutters just use air, so no consumables cost
[23:45:41] <skunkworks> (plasma)
[23:46:06] <skunkworks> andypugh: tips are consumables.
[23:46:34] <andypugh> Good point, I was assuming you could steal them :-
[23:46:39] <skunkworks> heh
[23:48:04] <skunkworks> so far - I have about 70 i/o hooked up.. each pallet changer uses about 10
[23:48:39] <andypugh> Crikey. Can't you externally multiplex them?
[23:48:53] <skunkworks> na - i/o is cheap ;)
[23:49:09] <skunkworks> 25 of that is just solinoids.
[23:50:00] <andypugh> Doesn't SPI to individually addressed pallets just sound so elegant though?
[23:50:26] <skunkworks> heh
[23:51:04] <skunkworks> when all the wires come back to the same place already... it just takes hooking them up.
[23:55:46] <andypugh> Reading the mailing list, I am getting close to being the acknowledged expert on single pulse lathe threading. Something I have never actually tried. The internet is a deeply strange place.
[23:55:55] <elmood> http://cgi.ebay.
[23:55:56] <elmood> +com/BRAND-NEW-CT520D-TIG-ARC-STICK-MMA-WELDER-PLASMA-CUTTER-/110514142997?cmd=
[23:56:01] <elmood> eek sorry
[23:57:10] <andypugh> No problem, but I think we decided we wouldn't get one of them
[23:57:36] <elmood> it was still in my paste buffer :)