#emc | Logs for 2010-04-14

[00:00:09] <pfred1> morfic oh I've been highway hypnotized
[00:00:26] <andypugh> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooVCvFLbjO0
[00:00:36] <pfred1> anyone that can drive for more than 2 hours at the speed limit my hats off ot them!
[00:00:51] <andypugh> That Youtube does do very odd things to your vision when you look away.
[00:01:03] <pfred1> because after about 2 hours 80 seems like you're parked or something
[00:01:56] <pfred1> andypugh I wrote a dumb basic program once that when you watched it and looked away it looked like the walls were melting man i wish I still had that thing!
[00:02:39] <pfred1> it seemed to work on the few people that saw it
[00:03:44] <morfic> pfred1: which is why in germany a driver's school (mendatory) includes 10 hours of highway driving, where they make you dog that poor little diesel golf, then on way home take you through a 20mph zone
[00:04:27] <pfred1> morfic i live in America where some places speed limits are just suggestions ;)
[00:05:01] <andypugh> I don't like the Autobahn. Too much 2-lane stuff with a choice of 70kph with the trucks or 190kph with the BMWs and Mercs
[00:05:12] <morfic> i drove 100mph only once, camaro just did not feel like it was going fast, i miss that car
[00:05:44] <morfic> andypugh: you drive 130kmh, pass the trucks and never drive anything but 130kmh ;)
[00:05:49] <andypugh> My only transport is my bike. But it does do 300kph...
[00:06:17] <pfred1> I have one car i never topped out
[00:06:23] <andypugh> I got a €375 fine for 120kph on the auobahn near Kassel
[00:06:42] <pfred1> andypugh which only begs the question why did you stop?
[00:06:49] <andypugh> It was a camera
[00:06:53] <pfred1> oh!
[00:07:00] <morfic> my bike would not go that fast, but i got it to be most efficient with some ignition and exhaust tweaks
[00:07:09] <morfic> andypugh: for 120? o_O
[00:07:13] <pfred1> yeah my days of going fast are behind me back in the day we didn't have to worry about any of that stuff
[00:07:31] <pfred1> we always said the cop is married he's not going to take the off ramp at 100+
[00:07:33] <morfic> andypugh: 120 *over*? :)
[00:07:44] <andypugh> It was a random 80kph limit. And not well signposted either.
[00:07:53] <morfic> trap
[00:08:15] <morfic> too bad germans do not know a thing about entrapment
[00:08:39] <andypugh> That's my theory, it probably covers the Kassel Town Council strudel fund.
[00:09:16] <pfred1> for me slow and steady wins the race anymore
[00:10:07] <pfred1> I thought I was a hotrodder until I built myself a fast car and went fast in it and I was like maybe i don't have the firmest grasp on physics as anyone but I know enough!
[00:11:02] <andypugh> When my work colleagues get talking about the performance of their cars I like to point out that, on the ramp down to the main road from our work site, my bike can hit 140mph before the merge line. (I am not talking kph now). That does make merging with the 70mph traffic a bit exciting though.
[00:11:40] <pfred1> andypugh that is what worries me its not can i handle the speed its can everyone else around me?
[00:12:27] <andypugh> Does your grasp of physics include the concept of the "light cone"?
[00:12:50] <pfred1> ha ha the blind spot right in front of us all?
[00:13:51] <andypugh> The faster you go, the smaller the angle of the cone in front of you is in which other traffic can interact with you. ie there is no way that a car can leap 6' sideways and hit you if it is only 10' in front.
[00:14:50] <andypugh> (Sorry, I forgot to say that that is true if you are going twice their speed, and untrue if you are going at the same speed)
[00:15:16] <andypugh> OK, enough of this posturing.
[00:15:17] <pfred1> andypugh ah something different entirely what I was referring to was how our eyes are put together we have a blind spot right in front of us but compensate for it
[01:29:03] <GonMD> does anyone here have any experience with Doughty Drive 5 axis machine?
[01:37:46] <pfred1> I don't
[01:38:16] <pfred1> GonMD but if you're interested i could show you a picture of the stepper driver i just prototyped ;)
[01:38:32] <GonMD> lets see it
[01:39:08] <pfred1> http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/8305/tb6560ahqnoflash1.jpg
[01:40:02] <GonMD> see.....all that is just black magic to me
[01:40:07] <pfred1> I need to get better current sensing resistors obviously i just used whatever i had on hand
[01:40:24] <pfred1> thing works good though!
[01:40:51] <GonMD> congrats. how long you been building it?
[01:41:04] <pfred1> oh I built it in an afternoon
[01:41:13] <pfred1> its only 10 parts
[01:41:31] <pfred1> it's just this part of all of that mess: http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/3122/tb6560ahqclose22.jpg
[01:42:23] <pfred1> GonMD this one took me a lot longer: http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/6498/stepproto1.jpg
[01:42:41] <GonMD> its still greek to me :p
[01:43:33] <pfred1> ah once you get your hand in it it comes
[01:45:02] <GonMD> ah. im just looking for a 5 axis mill that doesnt cost half a million to purchase :p
[01:45:32] <pfred1> GonMD that first stepper drive costs about $10 in parts to make
[01:45:57] <GonMD> so i suppose for a 5 axis id need $50 in parts :p
[01:46:15] <pfred1> looking at it that way Greek starts making more sense doesn't it?
[01:46:40] <pfred1> though Geckos are coming down in price too lately
[01:46:50] <GonMD> indeed it does. all id need this 5 axis to cut is wood, foam, machine wax and *maybe* aluminum
[01:47:06] <GonMD> i have a G540
[01:47:24] <GonMD> one of the ports failed tho, so I had to plus Y into the A port and reassign the pins in EMC
[01:47:45] <pfred1> oh thats the integrated one?
[01:48:04] <GonMD> im not sure :/
[01:48:15] <GonMD> its just what was suggested for my 3axis router
[01:48:49] <pfred1> I'm more a modular sort of a guy
[01:48:56] <pfred1> http://www.imagechicken.com/uploads/1269814572086495500.jpg
[01:49:01] <GonMD> modular is better
[01:49:35] <pfred1> thats EMC running one of my motor drivers
[01:49:44] <GonMD> but what im envisioning is a 4x4x3 5 axis mill
[01:50:11] <pfred1> a 3 foot Z axis?
[01:50:28] <GonMD> i want plenty of room
[01:50:59] <pfred1> most just want lots of X and Y
[01:51:13] <GonMD> i suppose 2 feet would work
[01:51:33] <pfred1> Z axises are typically more along the lines of 5 inches
[01:51:47] <GonMD> my current machine is 2x3x6"
[01:52:03] <pfred1> yes that'd be more in line with what most do
[01:52:18] <GonMD> but say i had a model that was 2 feet tall
[01:52:40] <GonMD> (i do lots of CNC studio prop work)
[01:52:59] <pfred1> thought about a hexapod?
[01:53:33] <GonMD> i saw a hexapod robot mill today on the youtubes :p
[01:54:00] <GonMD> unless we are talking about different things
[01:54:01] <pfred1> yes there appears to be two different things that go by the same name
[01:54:26] <GonMD> are you talking about a robot arm sorta deal?
[01:54:53] <pfred1> sort of I guess it looks like jacks at angles sort of or a cage in a madman's mind
[01:55:27] <pfred1> http://cmup.fc.up.pt/cmup/esgi65/Hexapod_general_Anim.gif
[01:55:56] <GonMD> how odd
[01:55:57] <pfred1> though that isn't even all of it
[01:57:22] <pfred1> http://www.laboratoryformicroenterprise.org/lme/hexapod-large.gif
[01:58:16] <GonMD> :|
[01:58:45] <GonMD> interesting concept to say the least
[01:59:02] <pfred1> well what you want is out of the ordinary so ...
[01:59:32] <GonMD> http://www.robots.com/images/robots/kuka-kr5.jpg
[01:59:37] <GonMD> that would be cool to have
[01:59:43] <SWPLinux> GonMD: I didn't see an actual question about the DoughtyDrive
[01:59:53] <SWPLinux> I don't have one, but I have heard of them
[02:00:18] <GonMD> oh right, i just found their website. just was wondering if anyone owned/used one before and what they thought of it.
[02:00:36] <SWPLinux> I've heard good things about it
[02:01:10] <SWPLinux> I don't know how accurate it is, but people seem to think it's pretty beefy for what it costs
[02:02:02] <SWPLinux> the B/C drive anyway. I don't know that I've seen comments on their other stugg
[02:02:03] <SWPLinux> stuff
[02:02:04] <GonMD> i emailed the guy to get a ballpark figure of a turnkey machine
[02:02:15] <SWPLinux> do they do turnkey?
[02:02:34] <SWPLinux> I've only seen them mentioned in the context of an add-on B/C drive
[02:02:57] <GonMD> no, but he sells plans for the full machine for 150 and it includes a BOM, but i cant view it without buying it:p
[02:03:20] <SWPLinux> heh
[02:03:26] <pfred1> http://fennetic.net/machines/index.php?hextatic
[02:03:43] <SWPLinux> I don't have access to my email archive at the moment, but I think somewhere in there is a cost estimate
[02:04:18] <SWPLinux> you may see something of use if you search the Yahoo "CNC Toolkit" group
[02:04:34] <pfred1> there used to be a guy online with a nice big blue one of these but I can't find him in all of the noise anymore
[02:05:21] <pfred1> what's this? http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/testing/Screenshot.png
[02:05:22] <GonMD> SWPLinux: thanks, ill look into it
[02:05:27] <SWPLinux> sure
[02:05:45] <GonMD> that hexapod thing is REALLY intriguing
[02:05:57] <pfred1> GonMD I thought you'd like it :)
[02:06:02] <SWPLinux> that's a good place to get a 5-axis post as well, if you use 3dsMax or GMax at all
[02:06:36] <pfred1> GonMD they make you sea sick to watch them run though
[02:06:44] <SWPLinux> heh
[02:07:17] <morfic> Dave911: do you know a place that sells large spindle drives? 22kW continuous
[02:08:11] <SWPLinux> morfic, Allen Bradley?
[02:08:15] <GonMD> yeah im watching a video right now of one......very weird
[02:08:21] <SWPLinux> that's 30 HP
[02:08:40] <atmega> that's a lot of spindle
[02:10:52] <john_f_> Hi all, which is a more common screw size, 4mm-0.7 or 4mm-0.75 ?
[02:11:28] <pfred1> is a quarter 20 a valid answer?
[02:12:27] <SWPLinux> 0.7, according to wikipedia
[02:12:32] <john_f_> Never mind I figured it out 4mm-0.75 is not a standard size
[02:12:34] <SWPLinux> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_metric_screw_thread
[02:12:58] <john_f_> it should be 4mm-0.075 for fine thread
[02:13:12] <john_f_> Thanks anyway
[02:13:23] <SWPLinux> .075 is mighty fine :)
[02:14:50] <john_f_> yes I think I was looking at a bad chart!
[02:14:51] <pfred1> all metric threads strike me as rather fine
[02:15:14] <pfred1> john_f_ must be the chart all metric threaders refer to then
[02:25:26] <GonMD> yeah. i think im gonna start saving up for that doughty 5 axis
[02:25:38] <GonMD> i may part with any organs i dont need :/
[02:34:21] <GonMD> OR just buy the B/C drive and mod it into my current CNC 3axis router
[02:34:52] <pfred1> whats a B/C drive?
[02:35:42] <GonMD> http://www.doughtydrive.com/images/B_C%20Drive.jpg
[02:36:30] <GonMD> instead of building a whole new machine
[02:36:40] <calcite> That must be hard to program
[02:37:03] <GonMD> surely there would be an app for that?
[02:37:22] <pfred1> check the appstore!
[02:37:47] <calcite> Cam and post for the user, thousands of hours to write the CAM ;-)
[02:38:11] <calcite> Or $thousands.....
[02:39:22] <GonMD> i run my cnc router off an ipad :p
[02:39:37] <SWPLinux> if you can model your stuff in 3dsMax or GMax, there is a free (and now also open source) script for 5-axis CAM
[02:39:46] <SWPLinux> of course, EMC2 will control the machine quite nicely
[02:39:52] <GonMD> i model in solidworks
[02:39:56] <SWPLinux> GMax is free as in beer
[02:40:08] <SWPLinux> well, the CNC Toolkit doesn't run in SolidWorks :)
[02:40:28] <GonMD> model in SW, and just export in something 3ds or gmax will open
[02:40:32] <SWPLinux> SolidCAM should do it, but it'll cost you the rest of your limbs, plus options on those of your descendants
[02:40:54] <GonMD> how about mastercam
[02:41:34] <SWPLinux> probably, for the $15000 version
[02:41:58] <SWPLinux> real 5 axis CAM isn't cheap, from what I've heard
[02:42:37] <GonMD> ah
[02:44:43] <GonMD> CNCToolkit looks pretty neat tho
[02:45:56] <SWPLinux> yeah. Rab Gordon had a great idea - take the machine path from a pattern mapped onto a 3D surface (with the mapping done by someone else's software :) )
[02:46:24] <SWPLinux> I don't think it does things like roughing cycles though, and it doesn't really know about material removal rates and that kind of think
[02:46:26] <SWPLinux> thing
[02:47:03] <SWPLinux> AFAIK anyway. it's been a while since I messed with it
[02:48:02] <GonMD> ill have to see if anyone at the local machine shops in town has acsess to solid cam or master cam :p
[02:50:37] <morfic> you know what's funny about metric threads and pitch? i never had to bother knowing pitch until i started cutting them in the US, you just buy a M6 or MF6 tap, and go to town, knowing pitch is for confused imperialists.... :P
[02:50:57] <atmega> I'm running axis tests in the stepconf wizard, will dropping from 8 to 4 microsteps buy me any top speed?
[02:51:03] <morfic> btw pitch, out 50mm ball screw seems to have a 8mm pitch, not 12 like Daewoo guy was thinking
[02:51:44] <SWPLinux> morfic, and you don't have to worry about which countersink angle to use either :)
[02:52:58] <SWPLinux> atmega: yes, if your motors have enough torque to go faster, and resonance issues don't crop up, and you're at the max step rate the PC (or microcontroller) can generate, then decreasing microstepping will increase top speed
[02:53:13] <morfic> SWPLinux: oh boy are you right... :)
[02:53:53] <atmega> I don't think I've maxed the PC, but I do seem to have some resonance issues
[02:54:00] <SWPLinux> now, you could say that having multiple choices means you can select the right screw for the right job, but still :)
[02:54:15] <SWPLinux> atmega: then decreasing microsteps will probably make things worse
[02:54:23] <morfic> i was wondering about a over powered servo, could it be tuned to accelerate at a rate that the ball screw survives even if it has the power to rip it off, based on inertia of slide/turret?
[02:54:46] <SWPLinux> you can usually limit torque in the drive and/or with EMC2
[02:54:53] <atmega> how so?
[02:55:09] <SWPLinux> microsteps are explicitly meant to decrease resonance
[02:55:18] <SWPLinux> they don't actually increase resolution in many cases
[02:55:58] <SWPLinux> so reducing the number of microsteps is likely to increase resonance problems
[02:56:02] <atmega> I can run from 0-1.1 "/s and maybe 1.5-1.8, but 1.2-1.4 suck
[02:56:37] <SWPLinux> try decreasing the microsteps, and also change the scale in EMC2 (but don't change the accel/vel settings), and re-run the tests
[02:56:46] <Dave911> morfic: Do you want an indexing drive, so you can position it? Do you have live tooling for that lathe?
[02:57:23] <morfic> Dave911: yes we want to position it, to probe at say 0deg, 120deg, 240deg. and avg the measurement on thin wall p arts
[02:58:02] <morfic> and trust me if we can do that, boss will add live tooling, i think i just saw something in a magazine that might be retrofitable live tooling, need to check into it.
[02:58:26] <Dave911> OK, then it is back to basically the big servo makers as before. Siemens, Yaskawa, Fanuc, I think AB has an indexing Spindle drive ... not sure..
[02:58:59] <Dave911> There are a lot of live tooling makers for lathes...
[02:59:33] <morfic> we never looked since we could not stop spindle where needed.
[02:59:42] <morfic> yaskawa, 22kW, $21k
[03:00:05] <morfic> * morfic hopes that includes the motor, not just the drive :P
[03:00:14] <calcite> 22kw indexing to hold thin wall parts, hmmm
[03:00:31] <morfic> calcite: you are now reading the wrong things together
[03:00:39] <Dave911> That is an awful lot... what you want to do is to get Yaskawa bidding against Siemens against AB. They are normally sold as packages
[03:00:42] <calcite> sorry
[03:00:54] <morfic> think large casting, heavy roughing and not leaving a lot of material in the end :)
[03:01:27] <morfic> Dave911: it should be, just sometimes you find places that have drives w/o the motors :)
[03:01:40] <morfic> i don't know who he talks to for the yaskawa quotes
[03:01:52] <Dave911> If those guys go up against each other the price can really be driven down...
[03:02:13] <morfic> more a joke since he asked me about automationdirect "yeah, but the website you get servos from, do they even have a phone number" :P
[03:02:37] <morfic> Dave911: supposedly this ONE guy gets him the best price of all of them
[03:02:38] <Dave911> Oh yes.. but if you want a single finger to point at when the big spindle drive has a problem... you need one motor/drive supplier..
[03:02:39] <SWPLinux> what speed would you expect that 30 HP spindle to go?
[03:02:42] <pfred1> it is a competitive world that we live in especially with the ability to get information so easily today
[03:02:46] <morfic> a strategy i don't believe
[03:03:25] <Dave911> From who??
[03:03:32] <morfic> SWPLinux: 2000RPM max low gear it's 1030ftlbs right now that is up to ~700RPM iirc
[03:03:58] <morfic> Dave911: "the guy", someone they dug up months ago when they looked at building their own machine for a special project
[03:04:01] <SWPLinux> you want one motor and drive supplier not only so there's no question about whose equipment is at fault, but also because you'll have a package that's optimized
[03:04:07] <morfic> this now kind of revives that project too
[03:04:17] <SWPLinux> they actually do know more about their own stuff than someone else does
[03:04:19] <morfic> SWPLinux: absolutely
[03:04:22] <SWPLinux> Baldor may be an option
[03:04:38] <Dave911> Yep, they gobbled up Reliance ..
[03:04:42] <morfic> SWPLinux: i was not implying we want to buy anything but a "matched set"
[03:04:56] <SWPLinux> sure - I just noticed a comment above, thought I'd chime in
[03:05:05] <SWPLinux> http://www.baldor.com/products/servomotors/n_series/bsm_nseries.asp
[03:05:29] <SWPLinux> the largest one on that page is 354 in-lb, with cooling
[03:05:29] <Dave911> If you want the lowest price you really need to go direct to Siemens, Yaskawa, etc.. Siemens will make their best deals direct.. no distributor to finance
[03:05:48] <atmega> no help with lower microstepping
[03:05:54] <morfic> # Acceleration torques from 16 Lb-In (1.8 N-m) to 1400 Lb-In (160 N-m)
[03:06:32] <Dave911> Reliance used to make some really big drives and motors... I used to use them.. but then AB got them, then Baldor got them.. Did AB keep their big drives??
[03:06:50] <morfic> Dave911: i know, like we ordered from MSC, but we have a local tool supplier too, now to order from MSC, we need to go to that supplier, "give them a shot to get a better price", but all too often noone follows up and just orders from them :/
[03:07:47] <Dave911> You should really try and talk directly to Yaskawa also.. Honestly, on spindle drives and big servos Siemens would rather deal directly with the customer.. For the little stuff they don't care.
[03:07:59] <SWPLinux> they have big AC motor drives still, dunno how big servo stuff gets
[03:08:07] <SWPLinux> probably pretty big, thinking about it
[03:08:30] <SWPLinux> (they = AB)
[03:08:40] <Dave911> AB seems to try and keep the best products onboard even after divesting from a company..
[03:08:47] <morfic> Dave911: i might do that, get with yaskawa or so themselves
[03:09:32] <morfic> good think i have a target point, i know what $$ amounts we were thrown at already
[03:09:35] <Dave911> I used to know some of the best servo guys in Siemens, but many of them were laid off last summer...
[03:10:02] <morfic> was a budgetary quote, like no specs on the yaskawa servos, just "based on the Fanuc specs you provided"
[03:10:30] <Dave911> You would be amazed at how much wiggle room they have on a 22KW motor and drive...
[03:10:54] <morfic> i need to sit down tomorrow morning and summarize what i know about EMC thus far, based on the questions we asked Camsoft.
[03:11:10] <SWPLinux> I have a few Yaskawa servos from a wafer robot, and man they're strong
[03:11:30] <SWPLinux> unbelievable accel and holding torque
[03:12:06] <SWPLinux> there are planetary gearboxes on them - some massive reduction like 50 or 100:1
[03:12:18] <SWPLinux> I can't even begin to slow down the 50W servos
[03:12:19] <morfic> SWPLinux: acceleration is one thing where the Fanuc servo might outdo the AD one, long term performance it becomes a wash
[03:12:22] <SWPLinux> let alone the 200W
[03:12:29] <Dave911> Yaskawa and Siemens are the two biggest servo makers in the world by far.. everyone else is way below their volume levels... so they dump a lot of $ into development.
[03:12:46] <SWPLinux> looking closer at the specs of the AD servo, it didn't look that great
[03:13:14] <SWPLinux> the top speed and torque ratings seemed low for the power rating (which is weird)
[03:13:57] <morfic> i should try to find the yaskawa and siemens phone numbers tonight, so i can be on hold while i type up my summary :)
[03:14:21] <SWPLinux> there's probably a local manufacturers rep
[03:14:30] <SWPLinux> unless Dave911 is suggesting something else
[03:14:45] <Dave911> At some point you do "somewhat" get what you pay for... but if you look at the bottom end up to about 3 KW AC servos for most Automation companies... they are all being made by just a couple companies overseas.
[03:15:11] <Dave911> For a 22 KW Spindle drive you would really be better off going direct to the companies.
[03:15:45] <Dave911> Siemens discourages their distributors from selling stuff like that.. they mark up the price for them ...
[03:15:58] <Dave911> I think that Yaskawa does the same thing..
[03:16:10] <morfic> interesting info
[03:16:32] <Dave911> If you were just looking for a Vector AC drive, you could get a good deal on that from a distributor.. not so for an indexing spindle drive..
[03:18:31] <Dave911> http://www.imts.com/visitor/exdir/showroom/00000295.html This is the Siemens office you should call..
[03:19:10] <morfic> oh, thanks
[03:19:13] <Dave911> I imagine that Yaskawa has a similar center of competence in the US also.. for machine tool drives and motors..
[03:19:41] <Dave911> NP
[03:22:52] <morfic> Dave911: i guess my main issue would be to see the +-10V input on the drive, to interface with all the mesa stuff
[03:23:22] <morfic> btw, velocity control vs torque control, what is the difference, when is one better than the other and can emc do both?
[03:24:08] <Dave911> For the spindle drive?
[03:24:37] <SWPLinux> emc can do either. torque control is harder, and probably better done in hardware (on the drive)
[03:24:52] <morfic> i noticed torque control mentioned on the spindle drive i looked at somewhere
[03:24:52] <SWPLinux> so you'd want velocity control
[03:25:18] <morfic> and the AD do both it seems, so i was just wondering when the difference is useful in the application
[03:26:08] <SWPLinux> a velocity mode drive has the inner torque PID loop internal to it
[03:26:25] <SWPLinux> so emc and the PC don't have to deal with it
[03:27:10] <SWPLinux> which is a good thing, because you want the torque loop to run pretty fast,
[03:27:14] <SWPLinux> -,
[03:27:57] <Dave911> Indexing spindle drives come in different flavors.. they are oftentimes a hybrid drive, sort of a super AC vector drive, with encoder feedback. Oftentimes they can only do positioning at low speeds.. That is why it is important to deal direct with the mfg on those as you really want to talk to the guys who know them inside and out..
[03:29:38] <morfic> 10 minutes and i got the phone number you linked me to, siemens has such an abundance of stuff, a call will be much easier
[03:30:31] <Dave911> Often spindle motors are also very specialized.. Siemens and others sell water cooled motors which are smaller and lighter but put out gobs of power. Very specialized....
[03:31:04] <morfic> i think eliminating a secondary mill op might make even slow speed indexing interesting
[03:31:28] <Dave911> Also, big differences between a high speed spindle motor and a low speed spindle motor...
[03:32:15] <Dave911> Oh yes ... you can do some cool things with live tooling. There are tons of Youtube videos out there about live tooling and positionable spindles..
[03:32:34] <morfic> Dave911: one reason why i still look at motors, i want to get so much info that i get everyone else to think about what we need
[03:32:53] <Dave911> That's a good thing..
[03:33:15] <Dave911> There is a lot to consider ... and tons of machines on the market
[03:33:46] <morfic> Dave911: just the other day we made some nuts out of cobalt, we roughed them, finished OD, leaving ID rough ( like 24" "tubes") took them on the mill, cut the full length, and put them back in the lathe to make part by part.....
[03:34:20] <morfic> just to get the hex on them easy
[03:35:46] <Dave911> That is interesting.
[03:35:47] <SWPLinux> morfic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGq-9NNmr3o
[03:35:47] <SWPLinux> (especially fun to hear the marketroid reading a badly translated script :) )
[03:36:03] <SWPLinux> make sure you're paying attention at the 55-second mark or so
[03:36:17] <morfic> Dave911: we cast our own centrifugals and do pattern work for molds to cast, if we scrap something we remelt and repour, instead of paying some other foundry's profits
[03:37:34] <Dave911> It is pretty nice to have your own foundry.... those are getting more and more rare these days ..
[03:41:09] <SWPLinux> I really want to figure out exactly how they made that octo-pyramid
[03:41:17] <SWPLinux> but not tonight. night guys
[03:41:22] <Dave911> Have you guys seen those rotary broaches? I've seen videos of them but I would like to see on in action personally.
[03:41:31] <ries> hey Guys, do anybody know some documentation about micro stepping, why to use it and what are the benefits/pitfals? I don't believe that a gecko drive with 10 micro stepping really make the stepper motors 10 times more accurate.
[03:41:38] <Dave911> SWP.. I wonder what they want for that lathe ...
[03:41:46] <morfic> SWPLinux: wicked
[03:42:48] <Dave911> In a lot of cases from what I understand - I am not a stepper drive researcher - but it is almost a requirement to use microstepping to get rid of resonance isses ..
[03:42:56] <Dave911> issues ..
[03:43:05] <pfred1> ries microstepping is to reduce motor resonance
[03:43:33] <pfred1> Dave911 I've built half stepping drives that perform OK
[03:43:54] <ries> pfred1: yeaa I thought so already, there are quite some articles that mis-understand microstepping
[03:44:13] <Dave911> http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/step/micro.html Have you seen this???
[03:44:18] <pfred1> ries really microstepping reduces positional accuracy
[03:44:33] <pfred1> ries each step is less well physically defined
[03:45:28] <Dave911> Mariss, the Geckodrive guy has always said that anything beyond 10x is a waste of time .. Microstepping is not really done for better accuracy..
[03:45:33] <pfred1> you're not in rotor lock in microsteps
[03:45:54] <ries> pfred1: I thought so already... it just didn't make sense from what I was reading about it...
[03:46:39] <pfred1> ries hting is if you want speed you have to overcome motor resonance though so microstepping is about the only game in town
[03:47:10] <ries> Agreed...
[03:47:52] <pfred1> I haven't clocked this latest driver i made yet but it doesn't full step all that swiftly really
[03:48:15] <morfic> http://lkml.org/lkml/2010/4/13/354 hope to see this go away soon
[03:50:14] <pfred1> it can haul some mighty ass in 4w1-2 with fast decay
[03:54:17] <Dave911> That really doesn't sound like it applies to EMC2 in anyway .. look how many threads they have running ... That is a servo app problem.
[03:55:47] <morfic> Dave911: about lkml link? not emc2 related, just general linux related, i foten do next to nothing and stuff gets sluggish with iowait sky high, only relation it it's linux kernel
[03:57:45] <Dave911> Huh.. ok. I haven't seen any latency issues other than when running a lot of stuff on a lower power CPU.. Hard to believe that with two Xeon cpus he can't pack that data into a database.... the data rate is pretty slow.. But at the same time a Linux server can host hundreds and hundreds of web pages??
[03:58:19] <Dave911> I don't know enough about that to judge that either way ...
[03:59:15] <Dave911> I better sign off for the night ..
[03:59:26] <morfic> 'night, thanks for all info/insight
[03:59:52] <Dave911> anytime morfic .... g'night
[04:02:10] <morfic> time for some late night Rasputina and then a late going to bed, usually helps before night shift to not go to bed too early
[04:36:19] <elmo40> mmm, beer
[04:54:46] <pfred1> there i was having all sorts of fun with my new motor driver when I decided to measure the clock I was running it on and found out I'm over the chips limit by a factor of 3
[05:45:05] <elmo40> fun times
[05:45:08] <elmo40> still worked?
[06:20:18] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[06:27:36] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[07:24:49] <WalterN_work> meh
[07:25:01] <WalterN_work> what is up with this guy sleeping on third shift?
[07:25:17] <WalterN_work> its just him and me...
[07:25:35] <WalterN_work> we each have a mill and two lathes to run
[07:25:55] <WalterN_work> and hes in the back snoozing in front of a heater
[07:26:33] <archivist> his production will be down and management should notice that
[07:26:51] <WalterN_work> makes me want to get a teddy bear, set it next to him, take a picture or three, then squirt his face with a squirt gun
[07:27:56] <WalterN_work> archivist: I've only been here ~6months now, as much as I've gathered, he has always been like that
[07:28:15] <WalterN_work> though
[07:28:37] <WalterN_work> he might be like that mostly on third shift, which was recently started a couple months ago
[07:28:52] <WalterN_work> 1-2months
[07:29:03] <WalterN_work> hmm
[07:29:12] <WalterN_work> anyway, machines calling, bbl
[07:45:04] <WalterN_work> I cant think of the trouble I would get into if I was found snoozing on the job
[07:45:16] <WalterN_work> where I used to work
[07:45:18] <WalterN_work> heh
[07:45:33] <WalterN_work> one time I did but wasent caught
[07:53:00] <WalterN_work> the goal is to keep the machines running, I guess he dosent understand that
[08:50:15] <awallin> well yay, got an old LPKF pcb-router today! sounds like another EMC2 project...
[08:51:08] <awallin> like this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/LPKF-PROTOMAT-92S-CIRCUIT-BOARD-PLOTTER-92S-HS-92S-HS_W0QQitemZ260582061462QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3cabe6b596
[08:51:15] <awallin> wow! they want 6k for it...
[08:59:34] <sealive> i will sell my pewrfect system maybe next week for 1650euro includ Notbook driver and tools
[09:00:01] <awallin> pcb-mill?
[09:02:07] <sealive> yes
[09:02:16] <sealive> 1200mm/min
[09:02:36] <sealive> but only for PCB 165x165x55mm
[09:03:15] <awallin> 55mm thick ?? :)
[09:03:43] <sealive> no axis drive way
[09:03:48] <sealive> i also mill brass
[09:03:58] <sealive> UREOL etc
[09:04:12] <sealive> litle sculptures
[09:26:49] <piasdom> g'mornin all
[10:38:58] <awallin> seems the LPKF takes HPGL commands through serial port
[13:02:10] <JT-Hardinge> is there a hal component that will to a less than or greater than compare?
[13:02:27] <awallin> comp?
[13:21:45] <JT-Hardinge> yea, that might work
[13:26:15] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[13:30:37] <alex_joni> * alex_joni curses big pictures
[13:31:04] <alex_joni> working on a pic about 10000 x 23600 pixel
[13:31:44] <herron> I have been stitching scans on sunday, gimp gets sloow
[13:41:31] <alex_joni> using photoshop here, but it's still a PITA
[14:53:10] <i_tarzan> what for?
[15:34:27] <mikegg> http://imagebin.ca/view/cVoYh2e.html
[15:34:30] <mikegg> schwing!
[15:47:51] <morfic> mikegg: that's some BS
[15:48:45] <elmo40> lol
[15:48:58] <elmo40> morfic how goes the Linux argument to the boss?
[15:50:00] <morfic> elmo40: not much of an argument, so far so good.
[15:52:55] <elmo40> sounds good :)
[15:53:07] <elmo40> have you tested it on any hardware yet?
[15:54:46] <morfic> elmo40: it's all budgetary right now, i ran programs through the sim, not much changes needed, changes so small would be easy to adjust for in post processor.
[15:54:57] <morfic> gotta go take kid to orthodontist now
[16:10:05] <GonMD> $2,340 + freight for http://www.doughtydrive.com/images/B_C%20Drive.jpg :o
[16:10:26] <GonMD> for those two extra axis
[16:14:45] <elmo40> GonMD: interesting setup. For rotating, is it gear reduced? or direct drive?
[16:14:58] <elmo40> expensive axis, though...
[16:19:44] <elmo40> or are you talking about the whole machine?
[16:21:55] <GonMD> no, thats just for the B\C axis setup
[16:22:04] <GonMD> the whole machine quote was 10k
[16:24:41] <elmo40> ouch
[16:25:09] <elmo40> that is you purchasing the plans for the kit, then outsourcing the extruded parts?
[16:25:34] <GonMD> yes. he said it could be done cheaper if you could source the 8020 for better pricing
[16:25:47] <GonMD> thing is, i have a 3axis router allready, but id like to extend its cabaility a bit instead of buying a whole new machine
[16:26:02] <archivist> make then
[16:26:12] <elmo40> I like the 5-axis video.
[16:26:21] <elmo40> puts the machine to good use
[16:26:32] <archivist> my 5 axis cost a lot less than 2k complete
[16:27:06] <bill2or3> is there any 4 or 5 axis cam software that costs less than thousands of dollars?
[16:27:08] <elmo40> archivist: pics?
[16:27:10] <elmo40> and specs
[16:27:23] <elmo40> bill2or3: notepad? :/
[16:27:31] <archivist> bill2or3, not that I am aware of
[16:28:11] <bill2or3> alt.binaries.warez.cam is always empty.
[16:28:18] <archivist> I use "inside rear of skull cam" TM
[16:28:21] <bill2or3> or doesn't exist...
[16:28:27] <elmo40> archivist: lol
[16:28:56] <bill2or3> I've been pondering a reprap with a rotary axis, but I don't know how I'd drive it.
[16:28:58] <elmo40> archivist: about your machine. table size? motors? spindle type? how can it be < $2k ?
[16:29:03] <bill2or3> CAM-wise, that is.
[16:29:17] <archivist> elmo40, lots of scrap re use
[16:29:36] <i_tarzan> GonMD, a milling head?
[16:29:59] <archivist> lathe headstock can be used for that
[16:30:01] <elmo40> the parts that I would like to find are ball screws and a gear-reduction rotary table
[16:30:27] <archivist> I use cheap rotaries £100 each
[16:30:42] <archivist> added steppers to them
[16:32:00] <archivist> elmo40, http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/djcpd/PD/2009/2009_08_15/102CANON/IMG_0246.JPG
[16:32:23] <archivist> column is an old lathe
[16:50:26] <i_tarzan> archivist, no vertical rise?
[16:51:06] <archivist> sure, the headstock is on rails on the column
[16:51:43] <archivist> and you can see the screw on the front of the column
[16:52:14] <archivist> its 1mm pitch
[16:53:55] <i_tarzan> rotary table needs anti-backlash modification?
[16:56:40] <archivist> it should but the gcode is written to only move in one direction
[16:57:02] <frallzor> yo
[16:59:14] <sealive> hi is there for linux a good g-code viewer i'am running karmic64
[16:59:37] <archivist> an editor or axis
[16:59:44] <sealive> to see the actual look like after the milling
[16:59:58] <archivist> in that case no
[17:00:02] <sealive> axis only show the path
[17:00:37] <archivist> it looks like pycam has something see latest release
[17:01:07] <archivist> but its generating the code not reading it
[17:03:05] <celeron55> i guess technically pycam would be very suitable for doing it
[17:04:02] <archivist> pycam needs to read the same tool table that emc is using :)
[17:06:29] <sealive> is there a instruct to how install pycam on ubuntukarmic64 i coudt not find anything only the tar.bz
[17:07:53] <awallin> sealive: I've been working on a cutting simulation. but it's not really ready yet, might have a demo going in a few days
[17:08:18] <sealive> ok pycam will only work on 32bit
[17:08:39] <awallin> ?huh, if it's in python it should run fine on 64bit
[17:12:17] <frallzor> * frallzor finally has a permanent installation for 3phase
[17:12:33] <JT-Work> nice
[17:13:39] <sealive> sudo setup.py install does not work
[17:16:46] <atmega> I installed it on windows, that was amusing.
[17:22:42] <elmo40> archivist: make gears with it?
[17:23:20] <archivist> elmo40, yes
[17:23:33] <elmo40> the little ones on the shelf?
[17:23:35] <elmo40> brass
[17:23:56] <elmo40> frallzor: 3-phase? in a residential area?
[17:24:14] <archivist> elmo40, those are big
[17:25:43] <archivist> elmo40, for small see http://gears.archivist.info/
[17:28:28] <sealive> someone can help me to come to the jungle of the ubuntu installation of pycam
[17:30:11] <sealive> oh heekscad also uses pycam
[17:31:32] <elmo40> it does?
[17:31:59] <elmo40> archivist: clock work?
[17:36:56] <elmo40> archivist: you really need to make thumbnails for your website... those pics are full size scaled down. take a wee bit too much bandwidth
[17:38:17] <elmo40> besides, who really needs to see a 2000x1500 picture?
[17:39:17] <sealive> i just G-codet Mount-Rushmor 100inch by 26
[17:43:59] <GonMD> http://gonmd.com/uploads/display.php?type=image&file=_MG_4873.jpg&size=lg
[17:44:05] <GonMD> you need a setup like this for your pictures
[17:46:45] <archivist> elmo40, yes mostly clock work
[17:49:54] <morfic> using the O word, i could use a do while loop that take one pass in Z over a certain X as long as current X-2xDOC lt someX, i tink i could code up a simple OD/ID roughing cycle that way, which would get us by until we can have a proper G71/G72 implementation, smooth
[17:52:13] <elmo40> GonMD: they load up FAST!
[17:52:40] <elmo40> those pics
[17:56:29] <morfic> actually, example 5. is doing exactly that already, could tweak it some for stock allowance and stuff
[17:58:32] <kbarry> Finally took the time to test the accuracy of my home made CNC mill.
[17:58:46] <kbarry> cut 6 1" x squares
[17:58:51] <kbarry> 1inch
[17:59:02] <kbarry> climb, convention
[17:59:06] <kbarry> pocket
[17:59:09] <kbarry> inside
[17:59:11] <kbarry> and outside
[17:59:16] <kbarry> made up the 6 tests squares
[17:59:49] <mikegg> well, how'd it do?
[18:00:10] <kbarry> a .125 depth pass, (in laminate veneered plywood) .the square measures 1.000 +/- .002 (depending on climb or conventional
[18:00:30] <kbarry> and at .4 depth pass, it was 1.000 +/- .021
[18:00:34] <elmo40> ouch
[18:00:43] <elmo40> single .400" pass?
[18:00:47] <kbarry> yea
[18:00:50] <kbarry> at 100 ipm
[18:00:51] <elmo40> interesting
[18:01:26] <kbarry> seems like commercial machien measure in ips
[18:01:32] <kbarry> am i right?
[18:01:54] <kbarry> Anyhow, i am very happy with the results,
[18:01:59] <kbarry> i was affraid i was all over the place
[18:02:19] <kbarry> but being withing a 1/32 sure make me happy
[18:02:26] <elmo40> really?
[18:02:30] <elmo40> I wouldn't be
[18:02:51] <elmo40> at .5" I want +/- 0.005" in Aluminum!
[18:02:57] <elmo40> at 100ipm
[18:03:42] <kbarry> hahaha
[18:03:51] <kbarry> i deal with wood,
[18:03:59] <kbarry> not ready for aluminum yet,
[18:04:14] <kbarry> But for wood its great,
[18:04:23] <kbarry> Means Cabinets are ON the table.
[18:04:40] <kbarry> Have had several people ask me if i can/would take a job making a cabinet
[18:04:59] <kbarry> (used to be a designed at a cabinet shop, but havn't even made cabients with a CNC before, so i can design them, but....
[18:05:06] <kbarry> i have been reluctant to make acabient with one
[18:12:26] <morfic> kbarry: why the reluctance ?
[18:13:43] <kbarry> I'm poor, and takign on a job, and then botching it, i can't afford a big mistake, not right now.
[18:14:10] <kbarry> secondly, ion't know how to price cabients in California
[18:14:16] <kbarry> (i worked at a show in Texas)
[18:14:21] <kbarry> shop
[18:16:42] <kbarry> My Bride has been asking me about putting in a few new cabinets in the front room,
[18:16:54] <kbarry> I think its about time i make a plung into cabinetmaking with a CNC
[18:20:44] <kbarry> Anybuddy here use sketchup as a primary tool in cabinet making?
[18:35:51] <sealive> 4H35min fpr rophing
[18:36:15] <sealive> Mount_rushmore 100x43inch
[18:37:41] <sealive> simulation is running try to get a picture in the next 10min
[19:00:39] <i_tarzan> why is CNC needed on common furniture?
[19:05:10] <sealive> http://www.sammellothar.de/mount_a.jpg First sim Pic of Rhofing mount rushmore
[19:05:31] <sealive> with 5mm ofset
[19:10:37] <mikegg> heh cool
[19:13:43] <morfic> sealive: "roughing" if you refer to "schruppen"
[19:15:02] <kanzure> 80/20 buyers and aficionados, could you take a short 13q survey? http://bit.ly/structory
[19:15:18] <mikegg> german is the only language that has a word which means taking pleasure in some one elses misery
[19:15:32] <mikegg> other languages require a phrase
[19:20:32] <morfic> mikegg: Schadenfreude?
[19:21:16] <mikegg> Richtig
[19:22:08] <morfic> i think i install virtual box at work today, to setup a sim ubuntu machine in there, beats losing stuff with the livecd
[19:23:18] <i_tarzan> virtual box may manage servos, mesa cards?
[19:23:36] <sealive> http://www.sammellothar.de/m7.jpg finisht Mount Rushmore
[19:23:54] <sealive> http://www.sammellothar.de/m8.jpg Perspectiv
[19:24:05] <morfic> i_tarzan: more interested in writing some o word routines and testing what i could get from it
[19:24:59] <morfic> sealive: turning off those ads seems like a great thing to do
[19:25:13] <sealive> therefor its free
[19:25:28] <sealive> 1GB space
[19:26:54] <morfic> what did you say you created this in?
[19:27:25] <kbarry> if you want a smooth finish, use 6-8% stepover with the ball-nose.
[19:27:34] <sealive> ok finish for today tomorow maybe some smoothing but i think thats good with a little polish
[19:27:34] <kbarry> it will give you a smooth finish.
[19:28:24] <sealive> that woudt run at least 10hours
[19:28:39] <sealive> 100x50inch 25 depth
[19:28:41] <kbarry> and?
[19:29:04] <kbarry> you don't wanna run that long?
[19:29:06] <sealive> the Artist shoudt do the rest
[19:29:21] <kbarry> off, this is a base, or a substrate?
[19:29:25] <kbarry> off = ohh
[19:29:43] <sealive> i got not enoph details to do a better shape
[19:29:46] <morfic> inch, hm, 254cm x 127cm x 63.5cm huge piece
[19:30:18] <sealive> its Ureol
[19:30:29] <sealive> cutter is 20mm ballnose
[19:30:51] <sealive> 0,8Inch
[19:31:32] <sealive> the shape is from sketchup google
[19:31:45] <sealive> into blender via collada
[19:31:52] <sealive> out to stl
[19:32:10] <sealive> into Freemill and then onto the sim
[19:32:21] <sealive> post is fanuc11
[19:32:37] <sealive> emc does this perfect
[19:32:48] <sealive> ok got to go !
[19:33:05] <sealive> till tomorrow BB :D :DD XD
[19:42:19] <flexxxv_> Can I use an Arduino for for communication between PC with EMC and stepper boards?
[19:42:35] <aystarik> no
[19:44:24] <flexxxv_> ok, what is the cheapest way to connect to the stepper board and sensors (think that this are 10 connectors) without a parallel port? (with USB)
[19:45:42] <celeron55> there's no way to do it so
[19:46:27] <flexxxv_> sure? So I need a parallel port for this? :-O
[19:46:42] <andypugh> There are PCI solutions.
[19:46:49] <andypugh> USB isn't real-time
[19:47:32] <andypugh> Is it possible to fit a PCI Parallel port card, or is this a Laptop?
[19:47:52] <celeron55> http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/product_info.php?products_id=250&osCsid=7cad9d113eb997dff463f56d23ea37a2
[19:47:52] <flexxxv_> I'm just planning...
[19:47:59] <celeron55> you might want to consider something like that
[19:48:14] <celeron55> it's the cheapest and the easiest solution, probably.
[19:48:17] <andypugh> Oh, and in answer to your first question. It is possible, but you would have to implement it all yourself :-)
[19:48:57] <flexxxv_> Are there quality differences between cheap ones from ebay and others? No I think I dont have the time for implementating myself :D
[19:49:24] <celeron55> there are quality differences between parallel port pci cards
[19:50:08] <flexxxv_> You mean a real parallel port which is build in? What is the difference?
[19:51:25] <andypugh> Some P-Port cards work better than others, some can't do EPP or be switched to Input, for example.
[19:52:05] <andypugh> So, look for a computer with a parallel port. Most still have one, I think.
[19:52:36] <flexxxv_> Hmm yeah I will see. Could I use the serial port for a connection?
[19:52:40] <archivist> most new do not have one
[19:53:06] <andypugh> Anyway, the reason I popped in was to point at http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/CHRONOS_2007_XMAS_OFFERS.html
[19:53:22] <andypugh> 4th one down looks ideal for touch-off purposes.
[19:53:24] <i_tarzan> what is the advantage of using mesa over P-Port?
[19:53:53] <andypugh> Mesa offloads the stepgen etc off of the CPU, and also gives you a lot more IO lines (48 or 72)
[19:54:29] <mikegg> or encoder counting/PWM gen
[19:54:33] <andypugh> Though my Mesa card connects to the P-Port, and still gives me those afvantages.
[19:54:50] <flexxxv_> How about this pci card?: http://cgi.ebay.de/hama-ECP-EEP-Parallele-PCI-Einsteckkarte-wie-neu_W0QQitemZ120556361557QQcmdZViewItemQQptZController?hash=item1c11b81755 sorry it is German.
[19:56:06] <andypugh> If you are buying one, then a dual-port one is probably worth getting.
[19:56:14] <mikegg> andypugh: what Mesa card do you have?
[19:56:18] <andypugh> 7i43
[19:58:48] <flexxxv_> @andypush why do I need more than one? I need 6 connections for sirection and step of each axis, one on/off and 3 pins for min/may sensors for each axis. I think one should be enough.
[19:59:57] <andypugh> Spindle speed/direction, guard-interlock, e-stop, spindle encoder....
[20:00:19] <andypugh> No, you don't need the pins now, but feature-creep is likely to set in :-)
[20:00:22] <flexxxv_> I'm building a CHEAP cnc...
[20:00:44] <flexxxv_> :D
[20:00:50] <andypugh> We all started that way, now look at us....
[20:01:40] <flexxxv_> :D btw, I think reprap also uses emc. how do they connect?
[20:02:50] <andypugh> At the moment they tend to use p-port for the steppers and an Arduino and bodgery for the feed/heat head. There are people looking at making it easier (like SPI for EMC for example)
[20:03:58] <andypugh> When I say "bodgery" I mean using add-ons like pySerial or bit-bashing in a HAL comp,
[20:05:17] <flexxxv_> ok. I'm using the stepper motor driver 2.3 from them for my cnc :D, I already soldered one and it is running very nice. I have a parallel breakout card here. what is the easiest way to test the driver board at parallel port?
[20:05:42] <flexxxv_> (I'm using an Arduino right know for playing around)
[20:06:57] <andypugh> Boot EMC2 from the LiveCD and run the Stepconf wizard, you can then test the motors inside the axis-test section.
[20:08:47] <andypugh> Do you know where I can find a list of the register manipulation constants for Arduino?
[20:09:11] <flexxxv_> I'm quit new to the arduino, sorry
[20:11:12] <celeron55> andypugh: you mean the avr register names?
[20:11:33] <andypugh> I think so, at least the ones that are reserved words in the compiler
[20:11:44] <atmega> you can find them in the header files in your install
[20:11:44] <celeron55> look up from the avr datasheet
[20:11:50] <andypugh> Or do I just read the AVR datasheet and assume that they all are?
[20:11:57] <celeron55> i guess arduinos use an atmega168 usually
[20:12:06] <andypugh> 368 here
[20:12:17] <celeron55> they all are defined in the avr-libc headers
[20:12:21] <atmega> same thing, just bigger
[20:12:55] <celeron55> ...or probably in whatever headers it is using
[20:13:07] <celeron55> does it use avg-gcc and avr-libc?
[20:13:12] <andypugh> Yes, not that I know how to find the headers...
[20:14:14] <celeron55> but anyway, if you know that at least some are already defined, probably all are defined
[21:33:50] <flexxxv_> Hy, someone here could take a look at these images: http://www.dropbox.com/gallery/2498257/1/CNC%20CAD%20Bilder?h=602906 ? Please tell me what you would change. Please keep in mind that I'm building a cheap CNC. I already have these linear slides
[21:37:39] <andypugh> What tools do you have?
[21:38:22] <flexxxv_> programs?
[21:38:39] <Jymmm> The gantry really doesn't have enough vertical support to place any real force upon it.
[21:38:40] <andypugh> I don't like the corner brackets, and the single-screw joining technique is cheaper and neater.
[21:40:18] <flexxxv_> @andypush do you have an image?
[21:40:28] <andypugh> I am looking
[21:40:37] <flexxxv_> thanks
[21:41:10] <andypugh> http://www13.boschrexroth-us.com/Framing_Shop/Product/Default.aspx?Group=102
[21:41:22] <flexxxv_> @Jymmm how would you do it better? I have two rails at each side.
[21:41:33] <andypugh> Particularly http://www13.boschrexroth-us.com/Framing_Shop/Product/View_Product.aspx?category=10205&subcategory=1
[21:42:03] <flexxxv_> @andypush which one isit?
[21:42:28] <andypugh> You can make a very rigid and neat connection with the self-tapping screws, but you do need square ends on the framing. (Easy to achieve with a lathe or a mill, not otherwise)
[21:42:39] <Jymmm> flexxxv_: https://gist.github.com/528c84b7cb24c10d8e0f
[21:43:14] <flexxxv_> @Jymmm not realy easy to do :-/
[21:43:22] <andypugh> Do you only have two round rails at the top?
[21:43:27] <Jymmm> nothing good ever is
[21:43:54] <andypugh> The open-bottomed siders and T-shaped rails would be stiffer.
[21:43:58] <flexxxv_> no. there are 4
[21:44:38] <flexxxv_> do you have sketchup? (I only use it because it is free) then I would sent it to you
[21:44:56] <andypugh> Otherwise, that screw conection is easy, you only need to drill a hole to get the driver through the profile to the screw head.
[21:45:17] <andypugh> Yes, I have sketchup
[21:45:29] <flexxxv_> ok i'll give you a link
[21:48:08] <flexxxv_> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2498257/CNC.skp
[21:49:05] <flexxxv_> hope you can open it
[21:49:27] <flexxxv_> It is not perfekt. I left some things out.
[21:50:52] <andypugh> I tried using sketchup, I am amazed you perservered so long.
[21:51:24] <andypugh> There is no reason not to have the side rails as far apart as the corner verticals will allow.
[21:51:36] <pfred1> andypugh are you any good at math?
[21:51:56] <andypugh> I used to be. But it's been years.
[21:52:18] <pfred1> well i never was so you have to be better than I am
[21:52:44] <andypugh> flexxxv_: Also, why not spread the side columns apart a bit, put the Y-axis between them?
[21:53:12] <andypugh> (Ah, because that is a single extrusion, ignore that)
[21:53:15] <pfred1> OK this is the deal last nite i wanted to see how many RPM I was spinning a motor and I measured .20 us pulse stepping it
[21:53:28] <andypugh> .2us per rev?
[21:53:29] <pfred1> well not .20 just 20
[21:53:33] <pfred1> no a step
[21:53:34] <flexxxv_> @andypush I'm only using it because it is free. I hope I'll be at university soon., so that I can get the software more cheap.
[21:53:46] <pfred1> just the clock pulse i was feeding it was 20 us
[21:54:00] <pfred1> now what is that in kHz?
[21:54:21] <pfred1> * pfred1 has an answer he thinks but doesn't want to taint the question
[21:54:36] <andypugh> flexxxv_: Have a look at www.alibre.com, the demo turns into a free version after a month, but is still a lot better for engineering stuff than Sketchup.
[21:55:03] <flexxxv_> I don't have the time to change the program for this project :P
[21:55:04] <Jymmm> SWPLinux: Oh Chatty One
[21:55:11] <SWPLinux> hi
[21:55:18] <pfred1> SWPLinux hey there
[21:55:26] <Jymmm> SWPLinux: How's lost wages?
[21:55:41] <pfred1> oh it must be nice there this time of year
[21:55:45] <andypugh> 2E-5 S = 200kHz
[21:55:52] <andypugh> No it isn't
[21:55:57] <andypugh> 500kHz
[21:56:01] <pfred1> yeah thats not what I got
[21:56:07] <pfred1> not 50 kHz?
[21:56:23] <andypugh> Yes, 50kHz
[21:56:33] <pfred1> ok yeah i have a serious problem then
[21:56:44] <alex_joni> andypugh: alibre does export to sketchup, but not the other way around
[21:56:48] <andypugh> I can do maths, but arithmetic is a different matter. I just use a calculator :-)
[21:56:49] <pfred1> in the datasheet this IC says it has a max clock of 15 kHz
[21:57:20] <pfred1> but in another application note they talk of clocks 10 us long
[21:57:23] <andypugh> Is that a 20uS pulse length or a 20uS pulse rate?
[21:57:41] <pfred1> well i measured from rise to rise
[21:57:46] <pfred1> on a scope
[21:58:09] <pfred1> a tektronix scope that I think is fairly accurate
[21:58:13] <andypugh> You can have 10uS pulses at 15kHz..
[21:58:28] <flexxxv_> andypugh: could you reformulate this sentence: There is no reason not to have the side rails as far apart as the corner verticals will allow.
[21:58:37] <pfred1> oh OK they're saying no shorter than?
[21:58:51] <pfred1> like the high part 10 us?
[21:58:58] <andypugh> Possibly.
[21:59:24] <pfred1> yeah because I mean I didn't see any smoke or fire or anything running it how I was running it
[21:59:41] <pfred1> it didn't seem like such a bad hting to do to me
[21:59:48] <andypugh> flexxxv_: The top side rails can slide up the corner verticals to put the side slides further apart with no loss of travel, and some increase in stiffness
[22:00:13] <pfred1> skip it i guess I mean what do these japanese know about electronics?
[22:00:42] <andypugh> In general, very little. The average Japanese knows even less than me!
[22:01:09] <pfred1> let me tell you I was just about to get another capacitor for my 555 I was driving it with because in 1/4 stepping mode i hadn't stalled out yet
[22:01:15] <flexxxv_> @ Ok I think I understood. I'll do this. Sounds like a good Idea
[22:01:20] <pfred1> and it was flying!
[22:01:41] <pfred1> but really I don't think it is in 1/4 stepping mode i haven't quite figured all of that out yet either
[22:01:45] <SWPLinux> Jymmm: I'm in Chicago, on the way home
[22:01:59] <pfred1> SWPLinux yeah how's that going for you?
[22:02:06] <pfred1> SWPLinux I hear the pizza is good there
[22:02:09] <SWPLinux> fine so far
[22:02:11] <andypugh> flexxxv_: In general you want the maximum possible span between the sliding elements. Think of each one as a pivot for the others, and try to minimise the leverage to minimise the bearing loads.
[22:02:28] <pfred1> SWPLinux I don't believe it but I've been told by several different people
[22:02:49] <SWPLinux> I'm at the airport, so the pizza is the same as any mall
[22:02:51] <pfred1> SWPLinux do me a favor go out and have some pizza and let me know just how it is OK?
[22:02:55] <flexxxv_> andypugh: how high does it make sence?
[22:03:20] <SWPLinux> since I'm within security, I think I'll pass on that today, thanks
[22:03:23] <SWPLinux> maybe next time
[22:03:47] <pfred1> SWPLinux what does within security mean?
[22:03:56] <SWPLinux> I'm at the airport
[22:04:03] <pfred1> SWPLinux you have pizza anxiety or something?
[22:04:05] <andypugh> flexxxv_: If you have the parts, build it, but I think you will be disappointed with the rigidity of the Y and Z. Are you wanting to cut foam, tungsten, or something inbetween?
[22:04:11] <SWPLinux> and they have security checkpoints to get here, so that's what I mena
[22:04:12] <SWPLinux> mean
[22:04:23] <flexxxv_> So I don't have thiese alu profiles.
[22:04:29] <pfred1> SWPLinux you look like a shoe bomber?
[22:04:31] <flexxxv_> and the connectors
[22:04:39] <SWPLinux> and since it's 20 miles to get into town, and it's rush hour, I'll really pass :)
[22:04:45] <SWPLinux> I don't think so
[22:04:58] <pfred1> SWPLinux for good pizza I'll go to lengths
[22:05:01] <andypugh> flexxxv_: As for height, you could actually put the top rail right at the top. Make a complete box.
[22:05:23] <flexxxv_> so I'm planning what alu profiles to buy. Do you think this is a good Idea?
[22:05:39] <pfred1> flexxxv_ aluminum sucks build with steel
[22:05:58] <andypugh> The Alu profile is good, and will be adaptable if you change your mind.
[22:06:20] <SWPLinux> I had a nice meal on the flight here, so I'm actually good without pizza
[22:06:21] <flexxxv_> steel is too expensiv for me.
[22:06:36] <pfred1> aluminum is cheaper?
[22:06:44] <andypugh> Steel tube is cheaper than the Alu profiles.
[22:06:48] <flexxxv_> I mean steal profiles :D
[22:06:57] <pfred1> man I see them junkies eyes light up when they see that aluminum
[22:07:31] <pfred1> I mean it ain't the copper sweats but its something going on there
[22:07:43] <flexxxv_> :D
[22:07:52] <pfred1> copper is like gold to a junkie
[22:07:58] <andypugh> You could probably buy a second-hand MIG welder for the price of the ALu profiles once you have bought all the connectors.
[22:08:10] <pfred1> oh gawd don't weld fabricate
[22:08:24] <pfred1> bolt it if you must but really I like things threaded
[22:08:43] <andypugh> Welding is stiffer, and much faster.
[22:08:43] <pfred1> welding is for building fire escapes and the like
[22:08:51] <flexxxv_> @andypush. there is a not too expensiv ebay shop :D
[22:08:56] <pfred1> yeah til yo urealize you have to adjust something
[22:09:04] <andypugh> I don't make mistakes.
[22:09:16] <SWPLinux> neether do I
[22:09:17] <andypugh> (Not ones that I admit to in public anyway)
[22:09:29] <pfred1> I've been welding for 30 years now and nothing ends up like the size you started out with
[22:09:47] <flexxxv_> @andypush If I realy put it all the way up it reminds me on reprap :D
[22:10:13] <pfred1> stuff shrinks it grows it warps
[22:10:20] <andypugh> Yes, I did think of mentioning Reprap when I said it.
[22:10:51] <andypugh> pfred1: Yeah, you are right. The only real way is big iron castings.
[22:11:11] <flexxxv_> the only thing is it makes my machine more expensiv :-/
[22:11:20] <alex_joni> SWPLinux: ha
[22:11:29] <celeron55> a bit more expensive, but a lot more useful
[22:11:39] <pfred1> flexxxv_ well I collect structural steel and i usually get it for nothing
[22:11:52] <alex_joni> we have a saying around here: he who doesn't work, doesn't make mistakes
[22:12:02] <pfred1> flexxxv_ or if someone brings me a truckload I'll throw him $20 for fuel
[22:12:12] <andypugh> What do you intend to machine? I think that design will work for wood with small cutters, but not Alu or steel.
[22:12:28] <alex_joni> crap works too
[22:12:48] <pfred1> alex_joni I like that one I'll have to steal it sometime
[22:12:51] <flexxxv_> I would love to use it for alu. but i realy dont need steel
[22:13:04] <alex_joni> pfred1: feel free
[22:13:18] <pfred1> flexxxv_ when i do make mistakes they're a lot easier for me to fix in steel than aluminum
[22:13:41] <pfred1> aluminum its get another piece steel its tap it and weld and grind
[22:13:58] <flexxxv_> @pfred1 I will use alu profile!
[22:14:24] <pfred1> yeah and your machine will sing like a cat in heat too
[22:14:52] <flexxxv_> dont be so pessimistic!
[22:15:19] <alex_joni> good night all
[22:15:27] <pfred1> I cast aluminum
[22:15:47] <pfred1> haven't tried steel yet I want to though
[22:16:04] <pfred1> aluminum is super easy to cast you can do it over an open fire
[22:16:50] <celeron55> flexxxv_: you should take the stiffness of the machine seriously or you will be disappointed
[22:17:03] <flexxxv_> yes... It is too hard for me to build with it. I don't have all the tools for it!
[22:17:14] <pfred1> whats that famous bridge video?
[22:17:31] <pfred1> you know where it resonated in the wind?
[22:18:13] <pfred1> flexxxv_ one nice thing about aluminum is you can work it like wood
[22:18:25] <pfred1> just get an el cheapo carbide blade and hit the tablesaw
[22:18:35] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[22:18:55] <celeron55> flexxxv_: at least copying successful commercial machines like reprap is a good idea as they've been designed for being most functional at the least price
[22:19:04] <pfred1> I have one of those 4x6 bandsaws and its great on steel
[22:19:22] <pfred1> I've cut 90# RR track in half on it
[22:19:33] <andypugh> I cut 12mm Alu plate with my cordless circular saw, it worked astonishingly well.
[22:19:38] <pfred1> had to flip it a couple times but it went through the stuff!
[22:20:00] <flexxxv_> :D I need some help to connect my linear bearing with the alu profiles. I need some help. how to connect this: http://www.nb-linear.co.jp/english/products/slideguide/img/seb/seb_wa.jpg with the alu profile?
[22:20:11] <pfred1> andypugh oh yeah i rip aluminum right on a tablesaw only thing that sucks are the chips are hot when they come flying off
[22:20:21] <pfred1> byt past that it works great
[22:20:54] <andypugh> The cordless saw makes fairly cool chips, but they get everywhere
[22:21:11] <pfred1> andypugh know what a nibbler is?
[22:21:18] <andypugh> flexxxv_: Drill and tap the profile.
[22:21:19] <pfred1> talk about a tool that makes a mess!
[22:21:39] <andypugh> Aye, I have used a few nibblers, they work well.
[22:21:41] <pfred1> shoots these little half moons of chips all over the place
[22:21:55] <pfred1> yeah they rock no doubt but the chips are nasty!
[22:22:08] <flexxxv_> @andypush: I think I cant make all the holes without any mistake. and they are realy small :(
[22:22:26] <pfred1> you do them one at a time and bolt it down as you go
[22:22:45] <pfred1> and use transfer punches
[22:22:51] <andypugh> pfred1: Monster Nibblers: http://www.csunitec.com/corner-drills/portable-nibblers.html
[22:23:01] <andypugh> (Or midgets, one or the other)
[22:23:08] <pfred1> andypugh heh i like!
[22:23:26] <pfred1> I just got a little pneumatic one
[22:24:07] <pfred1> 3/8s steel that is nice
[22:24:16] <andypugh> flexxxv_: You drill one hole, and tap it. then fit the rail. Then you drill through the furthest hole, remove the rail, tap that hole. Then bolt the rail on and drill all the other holes. Use the thing you want to bolt on as a drilling guide.
[22:24:38] <pfred1> Milwaukee sent me this blade in the mail once I think they stopped making it because it was sick expensive but man it made my sawsall like i always dreamed it should be
[22:24:57] <pfred1> thing was like a litesaber with that blade in it
[22:25:49] <pfred1> flexxxv_ and use these: http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=transfer
[22:25:56] <pfred1> grrr
[22:26:00] <pfred1> stupid browser
[22:26:10] <pfred1> http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=transfer%20punch%20set&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi
[22:26:46] <pfred1> I love transfer punches!
[22:26:59] <pfred1> collect all 3 sets!
[22:27:20] <andypugh> http://www.ppauctions.com/online/591Flysheet.pdf
[22:27:27] <pfred1> I guess now i should start on the metric sets?
[22:27:39] <flexxxv_> the holes don't go all the way throgh the slide
[22:28:03] <pfred1> flexxxv_ then how you bolt it down?
[22:28:14] <andypugh> From the back, perhaps?
[22:28:48] <pfred1> then you need oh what are they called the threaded center things?
[22:29:23] <andypugh> I call them "bits of bolt that I have ground to a point"
[22:29:35] <pfred1> well they sell them too you know?
[22:29:55] <flexxxv_> no :-/
[22:29:56] <pfred1> and you have a lathe what are you doing grinding them?
[22:30:25] <andypugh> Working fast and loose
[22:30:25] <toastydeath> are you racist against lathes or something
[22:31:00] <pfred1> flexxxv_ if those holes are on the top how don't they go all the way through?
[22:31:02] <flexxxv_> sorry I dont know what you mean. no i dont have a lathe
[22:31:23] <pfred1> flexxxv_ take a drill and clamp it to a bench instant lathe
[22:31:36] <toastydeath> that's actually something i'm going to have to remember
[22:31:48] <flexxxv_> they dont go all the way though! :-/ that is my problem
[22:31:49] <toastydeath> i've never thought about doing that and I have needed something exactly like that before
[22:31:52] <pfred1> been there, done that!
[22:32:35] <andypugh> flexxxv_: We mean that to mark the position of a blind, threaded, hole you can screw a pointed, threaded, "thing" into a hole, position the part, hit it with a hammer (carefully) and let the threaded pointy thing mark the hole location and start the drill in the right place.
[22:32:56] <pfred1> toastydeath I've done some questionable lathing in my mill a few times too :)
[22:33:20] <toastydeath> lol
[22:33:39] <pfred1> you just have to turn your head to the side is all
[22:35:30] <pfred1> how those holes don't go all the way through is a mystery to me
[22:35:48] <pfred1> aren't we looking at thig rail from the top?
[22:36:10] <pfred1> toastydeath you seen this? http://www.nb-linear.co.jp/english/products/slideguide/img/seb/seb_wa.jpg
[22:36:23] <toastydeath> barely, considering the picture's so small
[22:36:37] <flexxxv_> I can make a bigger :D
[22:36:37] <pfred1> toastydeath but come on you see those holes on the top right?
[22:36:41] <toastydeath> is that a linear slide
[22:36:52] <toastydeath> yeah i see the holes on the carriage
[22:37:07] <pfred1> and on the rail there's two side by side on it
[22:37:32] <pfred1> by rights they should be plain counterbored holes I'd imagine
[22:39:22] <toastydeath> what about them
[22:39:25] <toastydeath> is there a question i missed
[22:39:29] <pfred1> toastydeath did you see my latest motor driver yesterday?
[22:39:44] <toastydeath> i don't know anything about motor drivers
[22:39:46] <toastydeath> i don't use emc
[22:39:53] <pfred1> toastydeath oh flexxxv_ says the rails have blind tapped holes on the bottoms of the rails
[22:40:20] <pfred1> toastydeath well thats OK because I've only run it with a 555 timer so far so it hasn't done EMC either yet
[22:41:14] <flexxxv_> I have an Idea: I use an metal plate. At this metal plate I will put 2 holes for the alu profile. (bigger ones. I will also drill these holes at the profile. also I drill the tiny holes for the slie. then I will put the screw for the alu profile in, screw all the small screws of the slides and put the alu profile at top and and use a nut.
[22:41:18] <pfred1> toastydeath thing flies check it out: http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/8305/tb6560ahqnoflash1.jpg
[22:41:21] <flexxxv_> is this understandable?
[22:41:56] <flexxxv_> @pfred1 nice setup :P
[22:41:57] <toastydeath> that's a lot of wires
[22:42:05] <toastydeath> i admire your wires
[22:42:21] <pfred1> well thanks
[22:42:38] <pfred1> really this is most of the motor driver here: http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/3122/tb6560ahqclose22.jpg
[22:42:39] <toastydeath> (i don't know shit about what you're showing me, sorry)
[22:42:45] <pfred1> there are other circuits on that breadboard
[22:42:54] <toastydeath> you might as well show me the ass end of a horse
[22:43:10] <pfred1> toastydeath hey til i build the stuff i don't know jack about it either sometimes I don't know much after I'm done
[22:44:37] <pfred1> toastydeath I do know this though i can build those motor drivers for about $10 a pop
[22:47:25] <ries_> ries_ is now known as ries
[22:49:14] <andypugh> flexxxv_: I think you will have to do something like that if there are no through-holes. But all the ones I have seen have had through-holes too.
[22:49:40] <pfred1> andypugh yeah its tough enough when the holes go through the things why make it impossible?
[22:50:27] <flexxxv_> I have 4 of these in front of me...
[22:51:41] <pfred1> flexxxv_ they must sell chairs for them to sit on
[22:52:12] <pfred1> flexxxv_ that is in effect what you're planning on making for them will be chair risers
[22:53:18] <pfred1> and to think I always thought the concept of the chair eluded the japanese ...
[22:53:26] <flexxxv_> I forgot to say: you can directly put a srew inside
[22:53:50] <pfred1> yeah you could mount it with studs couldn't you?
[22:53:56] <flexxxv_> there is a Screw thread
[22:54:11] <flexxxv_> studs? what is it?
[22:54:24] <pfred1> headless bolt
[22:54:47] <pfred1> just a short stub of thread
[22:55:03] <pfred1> I guess calling them stubs sounded too junky?
[22:58:47] <skunkworks> poor steve.. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mach1mach2cnc/message/119056
[23:01:33] <pfred1> is mach done?
[23:02:47] <pfred1> whoohoo i just got the tracking number for my stepper motor order
[23:03:15] <andypugh> Steve should write his own controller, then he might be happy with it.
[23:03:44] <flexxxv_> please take a look at: http://www.pasteall.org/pic/2696
[23:03:54] <flexxxv_> looks realy like a reprap :P
[23:04:18] <flexxxv_> I didn't pu all the connectors. I will do this later.
[23:04:22] <pfred1> flexxxv_ looks like an 80/20 stockholders dream t ome
[23:04:42] <flexxxv_> what?
[23:04:52] <flexxxv_> I will change the 30x30 for 45x45 later
[23:05:10] <pfred1> http://www.8020.net/
[23:05:46] <flexxxv_> intresting :D
[23:06:04] <pfred1> flexxxv_ ah, what were you making your machine out of?
[23:06:21] <andypugh> Looks a lot stiffer to me, though the Y and Z slides might still let you down.
[23:06:40] <flexxxv_> I cant change the Y and Z, sorry
[23:07:00] <pfred1> I thought for sure I was looking at 80/20 in your picture you posted a link of
[23:08:01] <flexxxv_> Ok I will do the last changes and at 8:00 am I will ask the companie how much this will cost me.
[23:08:07] <flexxxv_> :D
[23:08:07] <andypugh> flexxxv_: Aye, I know. Or you can build it, get it working, then look at other options as time and funds allows.
[23:08:54] <andypugh> The corner brackets are horribly expensive. (well, they are OK each, but once you buy 20 of them.....).
[23:08:58] <flexxxv_> I'll try to get it working and I'm quit sure that it will do at least wood. :D
[23:09:50] <pfred1> flexxxv_ this isn't 80/20 ?
[23:10:05] <flexxxv_> no it isn't
[23:10:14] <pfred1> well its a knock off then
[23:10:23] <pfred1> they ought to get sued!
[23:10:34] <flexxxv_> I just did one change. I did not even know about this
[23:11:12] <pfred1> flexxxv_ so you say you have no tools how do you cut this material?
[23:11:15] <flexxxv_> btw: I got 4x 1.3 A Stepper motors for free. They can do 1.8°. My Electronics do half step. do you think they are strong enough?
[23:11:50] <flexxxv_> pfred1: The company does this "for free"
[23:11:58] <pfred1> flexxxv_ depends on how fast you want to go what lead screw you have etc
[23:12:35] <flexxxv_> here is some more info: http://www.motors.wrobots.com/23LM-C352-08.php
[23:12:44] <flexxxv_> the screw is 12x3
[23:12:51] <Jymmm> SWPLinux: In the neighborhood and didn't even stop by, HOW RUDE !!!
[23:13:39] <pfred1> they don't give the mH but with resistance that high I'd imagine the mH is pretty high too
[23:14:19] <pfred1> so these motors may not run super fast that and they're round body which dates them too
[23:14:20] <flexxxv_> so that means?
[23:14:25] <flexxxv_> sorry
[23:14:43] <pfred1> flexxxv_ these aren't the fastest stepper motors in the world
[23:14:47] <flexxxv_> OK it is no real problem that they are slow
[23:15:03] <pfred1> but yeah they'll run OK I'm sure
[23:15:16] <flexxxv_> pfred1 sorry I read the second message to late
[23:15:29] <pfred1> I lag on this network
[23:15:59] <andypugh> flexxxv_: If they cut to exact length and squareness, then I would definitely go for joining with the self-tapping bolts. However that means that all the joints need to be end-to-face. http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=4206937#header
[23:16:11] <pfred1> taking a wild guess I can't see these motors being much more than 110 oz/in
[23:16:57] <flexxxv_> I'm quit sure they will cut exactly,
[23:17:43] <flexxxv_> oz/in ? sorry I dont use inch at all.
[23:17:46] <pfred1> flexxxv_ i just ordered a couple of these for my X axis: http://www.alltronics.com/cgi-bin/item/28M069/154/Lin-Engineering-5718L-12E-01-Bipolar-stepper-motor
[23:18:00] <andypugh> Then let their cuts hold everything square for you, not the brackets.
[23:18:05] <pfred1> flexxxv_ I think its like 141 oz/in to the nm
[23:18:44] <flexxxv_> andypugh: but I have to make a lot of exact holes right?
[23:19:03] <pfred1> flexxxv_ you need a drill press
[23:19:11] <andypugh> No, the holes are only there to get the driver to the bolt head.
[23:20:00] <andypugh> The bolt screws into the end of one strut, and the head clamps the T-slot of the other slot to it from the inside. Look at the picture....
[23:20:08] <pfred1> andypugh you check out the motors i just ordered?
[23:20:24] <flexxxv_> I have a drill press :D so no too big problem. But where can I order these things chep? RS is quit expensiv.
[23:20:40] <pfred1> flexxxv_ what things?
[23:20:50] <flexxxv_> http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=4206937#header
[23:21:31] <pfred1> flexxxv_ thats not that expensive
[23:21:39] <andypugh> flexxxv_: They are standard connectors, your supplier should have them
[23:21:50] <flexxxv_> I will ask tomorrow.
[23:21:56] <andypugh> That proice is for a bag of 10
[23:22:10] <pfred1> andypugh I noticed that
[23:22:12] <flexxxv_> ok i havent seen this
[23:22:17] <morficmobile> :) 'evening
[23:22:30] <andypugh> pfred1: It's a good price, though identifying which wire is which looks like fun.
[23:22:31] <flexxxv_> I thought this would be the prize of one :P
[23:22:45] <pfred1> andypugh nah its on the datasheet
[23:23:01] <andypugh> They are only bolts. Even RS can't charge £4 for a bolt!
[23:23:04] <pfred1> andypugh i checked it out already
[23:23:25] <pfred1> andypugh but yeah those motors should be nice for my X axis a pair of them
[23:23:36] <pfred1> 440 oz/in on the X
[23:23:45] <flexxxv_> btw, can you still order as a privat person from RS? A friend of mine cant (I still can)
[23:24:05] <pfred1> flexxxv_ tell your friend to pay her bills!
[23:24:09] <SWPLinux> Jymmm: in which neighborhood?
[23:24:10] <andypugh> I don't know, I have had an account for decades!
[23:24:18] <SWPLinux> it's quite a walk to SJC from LAS
[23:24:21] <morficmobile> got lot's of reading ahead of me, boss is gonna go EMC2 route
[23:24:39] <SWPLinux> morficmobile: yay! :)
[23:24:39] <pfred1> morficmobile what sold him?
[23:25:01] <flexxxv_> :P He just tried to do his first order a week ago and they wanted the tax number of his company...
[23:25:01] <morficmobile> open source
[23:25:10] <andypugh> OK, I lied. RS can charge £32.69 for a single M6 bolt.
[23:25:11] <andypugh> http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=2237305
[23:25:16] <SWPLinux> wait a second. are you saying you have a smart boss?
[23:25:17] <SWPLinux> :)
[23:25:37] <pfred1> morficmobile yeah some companies are just too greedy for their own good
[23:26:10] <pfred1> morficmobile least with open source some more of your options are open as well :)
[23:26:11] <andypugh> flexxxv_: I am pretty sure that you can set up a web-account as a private i individual, but you have to pay a delivery charge.
[23:26:32] <SWPLinux> oh. I should run to my gate. bye all
[23:27:03] <flexxxv_> I'm private and I don't have to pay :P
[23:27:04] <morficmobile> i need to find the camsoft demo cd, they looked at it this morning while i was at home, apparently...it's funny
[23:27:33] <morficmobile> like "better not have a demo cd instead of this funny"
[23:27:46] <pfred1> damned chinese food i was so full just a little while ago now I'm starving!
[23:28:11] <andypugh> flexxxv_: https://uk.rs-online.com/web/registration/registrationPageOneAction.html?method=register
[23:28:28] <andypugh> You just can't have a _credit_ account without a company number.
[23:28:55] <morficmobile> pfred1: more meat, less rice
[23:29:23] <pfred1> morficmobile I had shrimp and brocolli
[23:29:57] <morficmobile> better go buffet next time ;)
[23:30:03] <pfred1> tell me about it
[23:30:33] <pfred1> sometimes you gotta be really hungry to buffet it
[23:31:58] <pfred1> andypugh they cut this structural that exact that you can just butt it up and get square out of it?
[23:32:31] <morficmobile> i bet the "fast feed rate" VeriCut found is them not setting up 1.5" holder in this tight tight ID contour
[23:32:49] <andypugh> I don't know, flexxxv_ said so, and any half-decent machine saw is going to do better than a dude with no tools.
[23:33:16] <pfred1> oh no doubt but if its off just a little or the operators makes some just a little the wrong length
[23:34:07] <morficmobile> A32 boring bar DNGA and VNGA to boot inside a 2.280 ID :P, yay \o/ i can move on to the next program.
[23:34:47] <flexxxv_> I just did some calculations :-/ around about 180€ :-/
[23:34:53] <morficmobile> a auto feed saw is not making random length parts
[23:35:00] <flexxxv_> this price may differ a lot
[23:35:02] <flexxxv_> :P
[23:35:30] <pfred1> morficmobile one shop I worked in we had an old war release nazi hydraulic feed bandsaw thing was just amazing!
[23:35:48] <pfred1> morficmobile ting cut to about a thou and a half all day
[23:35:55] <pfred1> or better
[23:36:02] <morficmobile> you mean a german made saw?
[23:36:10] <pfred1> no i mean nazi
[23:36:16] <morficmobile> you mean a german made saw?
[23:36:27] <pfred1> thing was probably sawing up 88 barrels before it came over here
[23:37:04] <morficmobile> german != Nazi, not even if you say "but '33-'45!", still not
[23:37:04] <pfred1> seems the USA took some heavy equipment at the end there
[23:37:33] <morficmobile> if it was up to the brits, germany would have been an aggricultural state
[23:38:02] <pfred1> but that saw never ceased to amaze me it'd saw steel like it was pine
[23:38:09] <morficmobile> it was actually the US that decided they would be better of to occupy an industrial nation this close to russia instead
[23:38:27] <morficmobile> you know what the problem with german tanks was?
[23:38:27] <toastydeath> and this has what to do with it being a saw produced by the nazis in germany during world war two
[23:38:36] <pfred1> yeah it was too complicated
[23:38:47] <pfred1> they made next to nothing compared to everyone else
[23:39:04] <morficmobile> pfred1: built too good, while the rest cranked em out to last a week
[23:39:13] <pfred1> actually they stank
[23:39:23] <pfred1> the pantheres the transmissions would go in them
[23:39:44] <morficmobile> pfred1: you can overengineer crap too :)
[23:39:58] <pfred1> and they didn't think about battlefield repair
[23:40:17] <pfred1> you do not want ot do a trannie in a Panther even in the best of circumstances!
[23:40:27] <morficmobile> all that said, it's then a german saw and not a nazi saw
[23:40:30] <pfred1> its like a 2 week job
[23:41:06] <flexxxv_> are there any planes to update emc to a newer ubuntu?
[23:41:15] <pfred1> morficmobile they were nazis and thats why we took it from them!
[23:41:49] <pfred1> morficmobile if they were just germans they could have kept their saw
[23:41:58] <flexxxv_> not all germans where nazis. please be political correct
[23:42:16] <pfred1> flexxxv_ well hopefully we didn't take their saws away!
[23:42:56] <pfred1> but that one we did so I have to assume it was a nazi saw
[23:43:44] <pfred1> but man the thing was so accurate it was amazing
[23:43:52] <flexxxv_> *confused*, but I dont care about this...
[23:44:15] <flexxxv_> (I mean this nazi discussion.
[23:46:20] <morficmobile> pfred1: spoils to the victor :)
[23:46:58] <pfred1> morficmobile yeah til i worked in that shop I always believed in the marshall plan and whatnot now I'm not so sure anymore
[23:47:51] <flexxxv_> Do you think it is a big deifference if I use 45x45 instead of 45x90?
[23:48:11] <pfred1> morficmobile though my forman was a defector from Poland and one day we got on the topic of Lenin and I told him how Lenin ended up back in Moscow and you should have seen his eyes
[23:48:20] <flexxxv_> (alu profiles)
[23:48:29] <pfred1> morficmobile apparently he was taught something different
[23:49:14] <pfred1> morficmobile he never did elaborate but he just kept on shaking his head and i ended the conversation by saying goto a library man
[23:49:41] <andypugh> flexxxv_: The 45x90 will be twice as stiff in one direction and 8x (or is it 16x?) as stiff in the other.
[23:51:23] <pfred1> andypugh wouldn't you think the bearing surface would play a part in alignment and ridigity?
[23:52:11] <andypugh> Yes. In fact quite a big one with enough screws conecting the two.
[23:52:30] <pfred1> yeah I liked it for that alone I saw it squaring up nicely like that
[23:53:35] <pfred1> the 45x45 on the 45x45 just seems spindley to me
[23:54:01] <pfred1> like i could see it racking apart
[23:56:22] <pfred1> plus i always worry about aluminum fatigue I'd rather spread out the load if at all possible
[23:56:33] <flexxxv_> I was thinking to replace the red ones here with 45x45:http://www.dropbox.com/gallery/2498257/1/CNC%20CAD%20Bilder?h=602906 and the green ones with 45x45
[23:56:52] <pfred1> bad link
[23:56:57] <flexxxv_> (ups
[23:57:11] <andypugh> Works for me
[23:57:13] <pfred1> no I just grabbed the 45x45 part
[23:57:26] <pfred1> andypugh my window grabbed it all
[23:57:47] <pfred1> flexxxv_ without those doubles your machine may rack
[23:58:14] <pfred1> flexxxv_ or it may work initially but fatigue early on
[23:58:18] <flexxxv_> ok thanks. Then I will leave, and only change the green ones
[23:58:37] <pfred1> just how i feel about it
[23:59:04] <flexxxv_> I'm also worried about this
[23:59:06] <pfred1> really you've no cross bracing at all so your only cross bracing is in those wider pieces
[23:59:37] <andypugh> I don't think fatigue is an issue here. The system as drawn should be stiff enough for there to be no significant strain.
[23:59:46] <pfred1> flexxxv_ look at how they assemble scaffolding and think why they use cross braces