#emc | Logs for 2010-04-10

[00:02:39] <andypugh> <Not PCW> Do you mean 71? I don't see any PWMs. (but then it is all sideways which doesn't help)
[00:05:45] <tom3p> rotate it, theres 6 pairs of *PWM signals
[00:06:22] <tom3p> i used adobe plugin
[00:07:17] <tom3p> shift ctrl + works
[00:09:27] <tom3p> *pwm AX com ax *pwm bx com bx .... *pwm fx com fx pins 1thru6 and 14 thru 19 resp
[00:11:20] <tom3p> from the overall diagram on page 65, i'd say this was the controll cable ( others are feedback and motor power...)
[00:11:58] <tom3p> without better docs, i cant ID the classic control signals
[00:12:13] <andypugh> Drawing PS10-00C-W11?
[00:12:35] <andypugh> Ah, just spotted them
[00:12:46] <LawrenceG> page 48 shows the motors are probably usable, now we need to find the NC cabinet and the drives
[00:14:35] <andypugh> tom3p: I guess your version is no more legible?
[00:15:14] <andypugh> I am wondering if they are AX, BX, CX, AZ, BZ, CZ but can't make them out.
[00:15:37] <andypugh> ie 3-phase PWM for the X and Z axis motors.
[00:17:09] <tom3p> try http://imagebin.org/92442
[00:18:00] <PCW> tom3p: looks like the Delta Tau Geo-direct amps, just a 3 phase bridge with perhaps 2 A-Ds for the phase currents
[00:18:05] <andypugh> Ah, 6 PWMs for each axis? That's almost standard. see my link at XX:49
[00:19:09] <andypugh> PCW does cards that do that. We just need someone to write the drivers.
[00:20:08] <PCW> Might be high side/low side so 6 PWMs, a fault signal and a serial A-D channel
[00:20:14] <andypugh> (You think if I start the job, make a bad enough job, and ask enough stupid questions that someone competent will take over in exasperation?)
[00:20:38] <PCW> Good plan...
[00:20:58] <andypugh> I learnt the tactic from a girl.
[00:21:15] <tom3p> i'm more worried if its some serial command structure, the 3ph bridge control sounds doable tho
[00:21:22] <tom3p> to guessy to bid on
[00:21:39] <tom3p> there's gotta be better docs
[00:22:16] <Jymmm> andypugh: You'll have to hit the drag store and get some d-cups or better. Oh, dont' forget the blonde wig.
[00:23:09] <andypugh> This is something I have been looking at a lot recently. 6-wire control like this suits any number of cheap encapsulated drivers.
[00:25:34] <andypugh> PCW: Your 3-Phase PWM. What does it do? Does it keep rotating the angle between servo-thread calls, or is it static between updates? Ie is it stepgen-like or PWM-like?
[00:25:57] <PCW> Just static
[00:26:29] <PCW> I figure you would need a 4 KHz or so base thread to run it
[00:26:40] <andypugh> OK. I worked out that with a 6-pole motor and 1mS servo thread that is still 10,000 rpm
[00:27:12] <andypugh> FP or non FP?
[00:28:07] <andypugh> I guess if you run it through the clarke comp then you would need FP, bit a non-FP comp using a lookup table might be simpler.
[00:28:26] <PCW> Its just a 3 phase PWM gen but with high/low side drive, deadzone and fault input (10 bit pwms , 3 in a 32 bit word)
[00:28:40] <PCW> FP?
[00:28:46] <andypugh> Floating Point
[00:29:18] <PCW> Driver munches FP to fixed format for PWM gen
[00:29:22] <andypugh> EMC complains if you try to run floating-point functions in the base-thread.
[00:30:38] <PCW> Well you could run the Servo thread at 4 KHz or make a fixed point Park/Clark
[00:30:53] <andypugh> I can see me buying another PC and a Mesa card just to experiment with getting my "bargain" servos turning. And I still have no idea what I will do with them.
[00:31:19] <Jymmm> andypugh: robotic lawn mower
[00:31:37] <PCW> Better have good isolation, and you need isolated gate voltage on the module side
[00:31:41] <Jymmm> andypugh: self-aware
[00:33:03] <andypugh> I wonder if the "Autonomous" RobotWars class would be viable nowadays? I rather suspect so.
[00:33:24] <PCW> ( though 15V wall wart taken apart could make a 340-->15V gate supply)
[00:40:35] <andypugh> The motors work at 24V, so I think I will start there.
[00:40:39] <tom3p> i think morfic might want a more mainstream drive, from his design constraints. even the motors sound 'special'.
[00:40:39] <tom3p> i think he'd get new drives and motors so he could replace at anytime, and be able to choose from many suppliers
[00:40:55] <andypugh> I doubt I will get much speed, bit it will work for experiments.
[00:41:19] <Jymmm> andypugh: Hey, cordless electric lawn mowers work on 24VDC too!!!
[00:41:37] <tom3p> thx for the info guys :)
[00:41:49] <andypugh> Yes, he seem interested in making stuff, profits, that sort of thing. I am just interested in learning new stuff.
[00:42:28] <Jymmm> andypugh: robotic lawn mower damnit! Put the neighborhood kid to shame!
[00:43:40] <tom3p> my electric lawn mower is 12V, when the internal charger / regulator died, i just used the car charger , now its just a hand switch battery and motor
[00:44:09] <andypugh> I don't own a single blade of grass. My garden was made into gravel in a japanese sort of style by the previous owner. Whereas I look at it and think "backyard foundry"
[00:45:04] <Jymmm> You want to turn a Japanese Rock garden into a foundry?! *sigh*
[00:45:18] <tom3p> mt fuji !
[00:45:26] <andypugh> tom3p: If you want off-the-shelf then I think it will include the bits both sides of that 6xPWM in one box.
[00:48:26] <tom3p> i was just looking into it for morphic & i suppose SWPadnos or whoever will have to marry the parts. it were a puzzlement
[00:48:33] <andypugh> Do the mini-ITX Atom boards work with EMC easily, or is it a struggle
[00:49:31] <DaViruz> i run emc2 on two mini-itx boards, works fine
[00:49:52] <tom3p> dunno, i dont see limiting myself to a single pci slot as being a good base platform
[00:50:00] <DaViruz> intel d945gclf, runs the standard ubuntu install
[00:50:21] <DaViruz> intel d945gsejt runs crux linux, with rtai patched kernel and emc
[00:50:57] <andypugh> My current EMC machine has no usable PCI slots at all. (There are 4, but it's a 1U case)
[00:51:24] <morfic> tom3p: i think we are better off finding something we can rely on for years to come, something i can easily drive with mesa boards with daughter cards, unless there are better options yet
[00:51:36] <DaViruz> andypugh: no riser?
[00:52:33] <andypugh> I bought a right-angle one, but I would have to put it in back-to-front or mill a PCI cutout in the front panel.
[00:52:46] <morfic> catching up on channel log
[00:52:54] <tom3p> morfic, discuss it with your integrator, i just thought the drives were not good for the 'years to come', and that MAY mean the motors have the same 'unique' quality
[00:53:10] <andypugh> Motors are motors.
[00:54:07] <andypugh> The feedback element might be awkward, but unless they are asynchronous AC servos I doubt you will have trouble driving them.
[00:55:48] <andypugh> (But that is just the opinion of someone opinionated rather than knowledgable)
[00:56:04] <tom3p> andypugh, would one pci slot be enuf for you? like max 72 i/o total, no more possible?
[00:57:00] <andypugh> I am happy with no PCI slots, just the rather lovely and cheap 7i43 hanging off the P-Port. It makes for neat wiring.
[00:57:31] <tom3p> oh i agree on the motors are motors, maybe built with one drive in mind, not built generic. not a drive specialist at all
[00:58:40] <morfic> tom3p: our integrator is "us", i think boss would prefer we had a solution where we go "we buy these servos with these drives from XYZ, then we buy this 5i23, with these two identical daughter cards to control all axis' drives"
[00:59:08] <tom3p> me, i bought a refurb dell something something tower last nite, 3 pci, integrated everything and tested with emc using the integrated stuff
[00:59:27] <tom3p> i was put off by the 3 pci :) i like loads of i/o
[00:59:45] <andypugh> Possibly, I bought some Bodine drives from eBay that had the oddest commutation pattern. They used a generic controller chip, but shifted the hall sensors left by one, and inverted the middle one with a transistor. I had to rewire the connector and remove the transistor.
[01:00:17] <tom3p> boy that sounds familiar
[01:01:45] <andypugh> Which is why I am actively (but ineffectually) pursuing moving everything into EMC software, where things like commutation patterns can be configurable.
[01:03:31] <tom3p> yes i can see you could cfg around the shift left and around the center inversion, that IS pretty cool
[01:05:27] <andypugh> I _think_ that they did it to interface 60* commutated motors to a 120* commutated chip. But it is equally possible that they deliberately wierded-up the hall sensors so that their motors only work with their drives, and vice-versa
[01:06:54] <andypugh> If you use an encoder (and better still, an absolute encoder) then you can ignore the Hall sensors anyway.
[01:08:01] <andypugh> Oh, and don't credit me with any original thought here, I am recycling stuff from conversations with PWC, the mailing list luminaries and this IRC channel.
[01:08:34] <morfic> tom3p: andypugh: are there any pages you would prefer to see scanned at higher res? maybe get some more separation on this "line art"
[01:09:01] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[01:10:39] <andypugh> Not for me, I am only taking a recreational interest.
[01:10:51] <tom3p> no need for me, we find your task interesting, but ditto, its just recreational
[01:11:49] <andypugh> But I do note that page 80 shows a quadrature encoder, which makes life potentially simpler.
[01:11:53] <morfic> still appreciated, page 70, shows pinout of 2 20 pin cables if i am seeing this right?
[01:13:21] <morfic> andypugh: what makes it so you can identify it as "quadrature" encoder?
[01:13:32] <andypugh> A.B Z
[01:15:10] <andypugh> And yes, 2x 20 core, 1x50 core (but that is the opetator console so likely to be rearranged)
[01:15:35] <morfic> for my peace of mind, 1,2,3 are all the same 0V, and 4,5,6 are all the same 5V, just run over 3 wires each?
[01:16:53] <andypugh> In which connector?
[01:17:25] <morfic> same page 80, between NC and drive
[01:17:50] <morfic> between NC and pulse coder right side of page, top if you didn't rotate it
[01:19:02] <andypugh> Yes. No idea why, probably to suit the available cable. (not a trivial consideration when you get to wiring stuff)
[01:19:31] <andypugh> On that page you have the A B and Z as differential pairs.
[01:19:40] <morfic> they break it on all the way to the left/bottom, i see the 3x 0V and 3x 5V, just making sure that based on the top of the diagram it's all the same 0V and 5V not 3 different sets
[01:20:25] <morfic> how are A, B and Z looked at to call it a "quadrature", since i see 3 pairs or 6 cables, and wonder where the *Quad* in the naming comes in
[01:23:49] <andypugh> It looks like a random switch from a numbered connector at one end to a lettered one at the other. It is a 12-core cable, using 11 cores. The right-hand side is fairl clear.
[01:24:16] <PCW> bye all TTGH
[01:25:17] <andypugh> As for quadrature, that just means that the phases are a quarter-cycle apart.
[01:25:19] <andypugh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_encoder
[01:26:02] <andypugh> (in the incremental rotary encoder section)
[01:27:21] <andypugh> You have two square-waves 1/4 cycle apart. That means you can tell direction as well as speed, depending on if A switches before B, or B before A.
[01:28:39] <morfic> what about anything you saw on there so far is "digital" ?
[01:28:52] <andypugh> The encoders are.
[01:31:12] <andypugh> Though I am a little puzzled by the combination of incremental encoders and 6-input motor divers.
[01:32:07] <morfic> what's digital is just the signal they provide, the pulses
[01:34:40] <andypugh> Yes
[01:36:22] <morfic> it's what everyone has been guessing it means already, just a matter of "or is there something else it could mean"
[01:36:49] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[01:37:16] <andypugh> Page 81 shows some more connections, (C1X, C2X, C4X, C8X) that sounds like there might also be a low-resolution absolute encoder for commutation purposes.
[01:38:17] <andypugh> That is just a guess from the 1,2,4,8 sequence.
[01:38:26] <morfic> 1, 2, 4, 8 does sound pretty binary
[01:39:27] <andypugh> Can you supply +5V and 0V to the connectors and put a scope on those pins?
[01:40:02] <morfic> our maintenance guy has a multimeter, there was never a scope around
[01:40:29] <morfic> i suppose suggesting to get one might be in order
[01:40:41] <andypugh> Given the budget you are talking of spending, then yes.
[01:41:12] <andypugh> You can get an LCD scope for <£100
[01:41:50] <andypugh> Or a perfectly splendid second hand storage scope for about the same.
[01:42:12] <andypugh> I love my little Tektronix that I bought for £80
[01:44:22] <andypugh> Very high quality second-hand ones are not expensive, see http://www.stewart-of-reading.co.uk/Oscilloscopes.htm for example. (that is where mine came from)
[01:45:10] <ewlsey> Hey everyone, I have a few questions about tool length touch off...
[01:45:49] <andypugh> Sounds like time to go to sleep to me.
[01:45:56] <andypugh> But do ask.
[01:46:19] <morfic> thanks a lot andypugh
[01:46:27] <morfic> 'night
[01:47:11] <andypugh> Aye, I have a day of showing students how to work a manual mill tomorrow. And I have only used that machine once myself.
[01:47:19] <andypugh> Have fun.
[01:47:54] <morfic> ewlsey: is it a emc specific question or a machining/concept question?
[01:48:15] <ewlsey> a bit of both
[01:48:41] <morfic> i don't have emc running, but i know machining, maybe i can help
[01:48:57] <ewlsey> I am trying to figure out how emc gets the length offset number when i touch off tool length
[01:49:14] <ewlsey> i am guessing it just issues a g10 l1
[01:50:50] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[01:51:57] <ewlsey> I should say this is with the Axis interface
[01:52:41] <morfic> ewlsey: sorry, it's still too emc specific for me to help
[01:52:54] <ewlsey> lol
[01:54:27] <morfic> SWPadnos: http://www.vitalsystem.com/web/common/breakout.php#7521 would then work with the encoders on our current drives? (if you would have had a chance to see what was said in channel), it talks about A, B and Index, above we talked about A,B and Z
[01:55:52] <morfic> * morfic realizes it's a Friday night, and SWPadnos is on a cruise anyway, fat chance to settle this now. ;>
[02:00:40] <morfic> ewlsey: interesting question, hope you get an answer when i am around
[02:01:20] <ewlsey> yeah
[02:02:56] <morfic> ewlsey: "The Tool Table will be changed with the correct Z length to make the DRO display the correct Z position and a G43 command will be issued so the new tool Z length will be in effect. Tool table touch off is only available when a tool is loaded with "TnM6"."
[02:02:58] <ewlsey> I want to make a set of pyvcp buttons to set up the tool table so I don't have to keep going back and forth between auto and MDI
[02:03:06] <morfic> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html//gcode_tool_compensation.html#r1_1_1
[02:03:20] <ewlsey> yeah
[02:04:15] <ewlsey> what I want to know is what happens if I touch off the tool off of the part (on the table) and what happens to G54 when I do that
[02:04:20] <morfic> you meant something programmatically
[02:04:25] <ewlsey> yes
[02:04:42] <ewlsey> my current method is to start emc2
[02:05:30] <morfic> well, this was a good exercise of rtfm for me then, the more i read that part of manual, the more i want it, i just need to get the drive control squared away and it should be all fun
[02:06:03] <ewlsey> there is a learning curve
[02:08:08] <morfic> end effect is knowing what goes on, an aspect i like
[02:08:21] <ewlsey> what sort of macine is it you are creating?
[02:12:36] <morfic> retrofit of fanuc control cnc machines
[02:13:10] <morfic> The "Tool Table" is a text file that contains information about each tool. The file is located in the same directory as your configuration and is called "tool.tbl" <--- this is good, i could prep tools, preset them and save to file to copy in place when needed
[02:13:33] <morfic> ewlsey: http://www.zerorealm.org/12LC/3-12-10_002.jpg
[02:17:31] <ewlsey> ah nice, what happened to the fanuc control
[02:18:30] <ewlsey> also, that should be big enough!
[02:45:30] <calcite> Question: any references to optical alignment of pcbs using EMC? Yesterday I was doing some browsing, and came across a YT video, but no I can not retrace my steps. I believe the reference was EMC.
[02:45:50] <calcite> but now
[03:03:15] <morfic> calcite: the video where it put chips on boards, the one where it squares off a smd on some white (i guess vaccuum nozzle)
[03:03:53] <calcite> no,Not that one..
[03:04:41] <morfic> too bad :)
[03:04:52] <calcite> The vid is just a series of camera shots centering on holes and fiducial marks. But it is "auto-magic!" ie, cornputerized!
[03:05:40] <calcite> the cmera is the image of each hole and fiducial as the point is identified and centered
[03:05:45] <calcite> camera
[04:05:09] <calcite> Nite awl
[07:00:11] <ries_> ries_ is now known as ries
[08:10:35] <awallin> machining on slashdot... http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/10/04/09/1325235/
[08:21:25] <MrSunshine> ive got one of those just standing in the garage
[08:21:30] <MrSunshine> collecting dust and rust
[08:45:28] <awallin> MrSunshine: really? :)
[08:45:41] <MrSunshine> ofc :P
[08:46:00] <MrSunshine> use it to make smal wooden boxes that is just plain straight no patterns or anything
[08:46:04] <MrSunshine> well worth investment
[08:46:08] <MrSunshine> *used
[09:15:23] <piasdom> g'mornin all
[09:24:35] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[10:40:02] <Poincare> so, what are people here thinking about Steorn's Orbs?
[11:04:17] <morficmobile> znc++
[11:08:03] <morficmobile> 'morning
[11:13:32] <morficmobile> JT-Dev == JT-Hardinge ?
[11:13:41] <JT-Dev> yes
[11:14:23] <morficmobile> oh i'm so smart!
[11:14:29] <morficmobile> ;)
[11:14:31] <morficmobile> 'morning
[11:14:43] <JT-Dev> morning
[11:15:23] <Valen> your "mobile" is a P4 3ghz running XP morficmobile?
[11:16:06] <morficmobile> Valen: i use this znc session to minimize traffic, connecting to morfic would have me in 13+ non work related channels
[11:16:25] <Valen> znc?
[11:16:34] <morficmobile> irc "bouncer"
[11:16:41] <Valen> hmm interesting
[11:16:59] <Valen> I always wanted a central "server" / P2P style plugin for pidgin
[11:17:12] <Valen> so I could bounce connections around but keep the chat logs
[11:17:27] <morficmobile> it runs on my sheeva (plug computer, which is my httpd/sshd/deluge/nsfd/znc box)
[11:18:27] <Valen> I had been looking to see if I could find a purpose for one of those lol
[11:18:32] <morficmobile> znc works with any kind of client, does ssl too if that floats your boat
[11:18:37] <Valen> they seem expensive for whats in them, though they are small
[11:18:57] <Valen> yeah its IRC only though
[11:19:06] <morficmobile> Valen: get a guru plug, $129, but includes esata, i so want to upgrade :)
[11:20:08] <morficmobile> i have no need for this outside of irc keeping logs, say #emc is worth reading backlog on, IM? if i'm not there, nothing to log ;)
[11:21:43] <Valen> I'm thinking of using it as a firewall
[11:23:12] <Valen> hmm
[11:23:17] <Valen> those things have USB
[11:24:12] <Valen> that thingie + usb tv tuner + esata drive = kinda nifty mythtv box
[11:24:13] <morficmobile> guru plugs have wifi (b/g only though iirc), esata, usb, eth0/eth1
[11:26:29] <JT-Dev> I have a bunch of SSR's on the lathe and I changed a valve out yesterday and one coil is energized even though the SSR has no power applied to the control side. I can read 125v on the output as well when it is off. The only difference is the new coil is about 1/2 the watts of the old coil. Is the SSR shot?
[11:27:36] <Valen> hmm those guru plugs sound like a good firewall
[11:37:33] <Valen> http://www.slashgear.com/toradex-robin-atom-cpu-on-credit-card-sized-mainboard-2735953/ looks nice too
[11:44:28] <JT-Dev> dang, now I need to go out to the shop and find the Hardinge manual to see if I need SAE 20 or 50 way oil...
[11:49:58] <morficmobile> JT-Dev: you need to make a cheat sheet with such info on it
[11:50:08] <JT-Dev> yea
[12:31:27] <morficmobile> great, had part #2 slip in 4th axis op slip today, or i hope it was just slipping, scribed chuck at Y0. A0. just in case, aside from just marking his part, there were no slip marks on the part at all.
[12:38:28] <JT-Dev> Sweet! I actually had the correct CHNC I supplement manual for my machine out of the three manuals that came with the machine
[12:39:26] <morficmobile> havingtherightmanual++
[12:40:18] <JT-Dev> it came with a huge box full of manuals, most were for similar machines
[12:40:46] <morficmobile> they sold it with "close enough manual"s?
[12:41:08] <Valen> 's probably the same way the rest of the thing is done
[12:41:41] <JT-Dev> there was no mention of manuals but I sure was glad to see them when I opened up the wrapper
[12:41:53] <JT-Dev> complete wiring blueprints too
[12:42:01] <morficmobile> JT-Dev: used machine?
[12:42:07] <JT-Dev> I'd still be sorting that out without them
[12:42:23] <JT-Dev> yea with a partially dead control
[12:42:36] <morficmobile> you make me jealous, having complete wiring blueprints
[12:42:55] <Jymmm> Heh, NOBODY bus new machine in here =)
[12:42:59] <Jymmm> buys
[12:43:00] <JT-Dev> actually I think the only thing wrong with the old control was a $0.79 part in the turret encoder drawing the 24v buss down
[12:43:45] <morficmobile> Jymmm: my boss will, and tell them to sell him the iron, and put on the control himself, providing the switch on the lathe and mill works smooth first ;)
[12:44:32] <morficmobile> o_O
[12:45:37] <JT-Dev> the cause of the original control not working http://www.linuxcnc.org/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,20/func,view/id,1276/catid,30/limit,6/limitstart,24/lang,english/
[12:45:44] <Valen> morficmobile any luck with the pinouts on the drivers?
[12:45:56] <JT-Dev> a smoked Tantalum bypass capacitor
[12:46:50] <morficmobile> Valen: got a pdf up, some people poked at it, seems the "digital" part of it is the encoders (A,B Z) from what i heard so far
[12:46:52] <Valen> that'll do it
[12:46:55] <Valen> they explode good
[12:47:06] <Valen> morficmobile got a url?
[12:47:50] <JT-Dev> looks like everything takes Vactra Oil #2
[12:48:07] <morficmobile> http://www.thirtyfivemillimeter.net/12-LC_CIRCUITS.pdf
[12:48:34] <morficmobile> Valen: not that some scans are out of order, pages 71-80 should be of interest
[12:49:05] <Valen> wow nasty looking lol
[12:49:34] <morficmobile> if A,B and Z translate to A,B and Index, then those encoders should fit nice on vitalsystems cards
[12:49:55] <morficmobile> yeah i was running around too much to check all thwe scans after he was done scanning
[12:49:56] <Valen> i believe that is the general way of doing it
[12:50:00] <Valen> vitalsystems?
[12:50:20] <morficmobile> they are linked from the website as supported hardware
[12:51:15] <Valen> probably are, I just havent heard of people using them
[12:51:47] <morficmobile> well, i'd use anything that could control those and other drives
[12:52:52] <Valen> I've only used mesa, but it seems to work really well
[12:54:45] <morficmobile> there might also be an absolute encoder based on the numbering of the pins C1X, C2X, C4X, C8X page 81
[12:54:57] <Valen> absolute rotary?
[12:55:17] <morficmobile> who made your drives? what kind of encoders do you have with that?
[12:55:21] <Valen> mesa
[12:55:38] <Valen> we are actually using .001 linear scales rather than encoderss
[12:55:42] <morficmobile> mesa prices are even better than vital systems
[12:55:43] <Valen> .001mm
[12:55:58] <Valen> PCW I believe works for mesa
[12:56:03] <Valen> so you get good support ;->
[12:56:36] <morficmobile> i didn't know pcw_home worked for mesa, i just him called upon the pdf being linked
[12:56:41] <Valen> All you will probably need is a 5i23 and a 7i something that does the 4x +-10v outputs
[12:56:51] <Valen> I think its PCW, I could be wrong
[12:57:54] <morficmobile> i was considering the 5i22 +7i* daughter cards, but not will need a "yes, those work with such and such drive with such and such encoders"
[12:58:31] <morficmobile> i was considering the 5i22 +7i* daughter cards, but not going to stop looking, until a i get a definite "yes, those work with such and such drive with such and such encoders"
[12:58:40] <Valen> actually looking at that it seems to mention PWM outputs
[12:58:52] <JT-Dev> on my Hardinge I used a 5i20 with 7i33 for drives/encoders and 2 7i37's for I/O
[12:59:42] <Valen> thats a lot of IO
[12:59:46] <Valen> that the tool changer
[13:00:02] <Valen> yeah you will want an IO card or 2 as well probably
[13:01:37] <Valen> morficmobile whats the thing called "nc" on page 71?
[13:02:33] <morficmobile> i522 does not have enough IO for that? oh you mean cards for actual connection, sure, need a way to hook up wires
[13:03:11] <morficmobile> Valen: i guess NC refers to a connection end inside the control?
[13:04:34] <morficmobile> if the 7I33 still work for encoders like ours, that would be perfect
[13:05:32] <Valen> yeah, it basically is a buffer
[13:05:36] <morficmobile> it would be 5i22 + 1x 7i33 + 1-2 7i37 for the lathe and then 5i22 + 2x7i33 + 27i37 for the mill
[13:05:48] <Valen> means odd voltages wont fry the mesa
[13:06:23] <Valen> thats a pretty loaded out 5i22 there lol
[13:07:10] <Valen> morficmobile dont spose you have an oscilloscope?
[13:07:35] <Valen> Wish you were in sydney australia ;-> I'd happily "support" this stuff for you lol
[13:07:50] <morficmobile> not yet, from looks of it, no matter what we would choose, it would be best to have one
[13:08:42] <Valen> 2nd hand tek's are nice ;->
[13:08:56] <Valen> but for what your doing pretty much anything would do
[13:09:01] <morficmobile> only reason for the 2 7i33 would be that 4axis+spindle is one over the 4 axis the 7i33 does
[13:09:13] <Valen> yeah
[13:09:27] <morficmobile> still nice to have the problem of a second $80 card
[13:09:56] <Valen> lol, that might be enough to talk to fanuc on the phone for a few seconds ;->
[13:10:49] <morficmobile> if cpw really is from mesa, it would be useful to get some more info on what they support
[13:11:11] <morficmobile> right now, i see nothing on the the diagrams that screams +-10V anywhere, to me
[13:11:13] <morficmobile> pcw*
[13:11:48] <Valen> yeah its unclear what all the crap in those pinouts actually means
[13:12:23] <Valen> leads me to wonder if you have brushless drives?
[13:12:33] <Valen> I see com and PWM, on there
[13:12:55] <Valen> that might be common rather than commutate but
[13:14:28] <morficmobile> abbreviations are not much fun if you don't get a "key"
[13:14:40] <Valen> actually if you say it has an absolute rotary encoder that would also tend to confirm a brushless setup
[13:23:54] <morficmobile> Valen: wondering what you are poking at
[13:24:50] <Valen> I'm worried that something in the control (the bit you want to replace) is commutating the brushless drive and putting out a hideously complex signal to the amp
[13:27:33] <morficmobile> well, if i could get a quick quote somewhere from a place that sells 10HP servos with drives that are super simple to hook up to the 7i33, i would be tempted to suggest switching that all together, keep the old iron, do a clean start on the control
[13:31:20] <JT-Hardinge> do your drives take +-10vdc velocity input?
[13:31:35] <Valen> JT-Hardinge: the schematics he has posted are unclear
[13:31:46] <morficmobile> JT-Hardinge: i do not see anything saying that explicitly
[13:31:55] <Valen> I would say it'd be cheap to get a crappy oscilloscope and play with things
[13:32:23] <Valen> morficmobile think you could get internet next to that thing, I'm thinking a webcam and skype or something lol
[13:32:42] <Jymmm> ...and robotic arms
[13:32:47] <JT-Hardinge> what kind of drives are they
[13:32:55] <morficmobile> boss set a deadline of 21st of april to decide on the control to get, since emc wasn't considered when this started, i am behind since i started
[13:33:18] <morficmobile> JT-Hardinge: the fanuc drives the machine came with
[13:33:59] <JT-Hardinge> should only be a few wires to the control part of the axis cards
[13:34:32] <Valen> JT-Hardinge: http://www.thirtyfivemillimeter.net/12-LC_CIRCUITS.pdf is what we have to work with
[13:34:52] <Valen> morficmobile so any chance of a scope and a skype?
[13:35:14] <JT-Hardinge> my spindle drive is fanuc and my axis drives are semens
[13:35:28] <morficmobile> Daewoo/Doosan when asked for wiring diagram sent us the default settings bitmask of the control o_O
[13:36:19] <morficmobile> spindle and axis drives are fanuc on this, right now all i look at are axis drives, they are fun enough to try to find info on
[13:36:56] <morficmobile> JT-Hardinge: and the 7i33 has no issues with your spindle drive, which alone is good news
[13:37:19] <JT-Hardinge> no it runs it up to 6k rpm
[13:38:07] <JT-Hardinge> file is still downloading
[13:38:30] <morficmobile> would be great to identify if your spindle drive wiring matches what our 1996 lathe has
[13:39:47] <JT-Hardinge> mine is late 80's and it is a newer digital drive for that time
[13:42:08] <morficmobile> when you see upper 0T, lower 15T, we have a 0T control
[13:44:08] <morficmobile> are R, S, T letters used for 3 phase power?
[13:44:34] <Valen> I vagle recall that
[13:45:07] <morficmobile> cause RX, SX, TX and RZ , SZ ,TZ come off the same terminals of the servo line filter which takes 220V 3 phase as input
[13:47:19] <JT-Hardinge> at least it tells you what wires are from the encoder
[13:49:44] <morficmobile> X axis motor is "Model 10" and Z Axis is "Model 20" maybe i can find more info based on that
[13:52:25] <morficmobile> Fanuc AC Servo Motor, * * Model 10, * * Type# A06B-0501-B751, * * Trq. Stall: 12 Nm, * * 3 Phase, * * Amp (Stall) 11A, * * 6 Poles, * * Insulation Class: F, * * 2000 RPM, * * Excit. perm. magnet, * * Amb. 40 degree C., * * Volts: 144, * * Pulse Coder, * * * *
[13:52:54] <Valen> yeah 3 phase its a brushless
[13:53:08] <morficmobile> should have them check our A06B- number
[13:53:25] <Valen> I am hoping that there is somewhere you can tap into its control system with a PWM + direction or +-10v signal
[13:55:15] <morficmobile> torque+amp seems to be more common to spec than HP from all places that do sell/refurb them it seems
[13:55:20] <morficmobile> 'morning tom3p
[13:57:32] <JT-Hardinge> my drive drawings show A06C... for drives
[13:57:43] <JT-Hardinge> what's the model number of your drive
[13:57:45] <tom3p> good morning
[13:58:46] <morficmobile> Spindle servo - A06B-6064-H322#H550 No ES5205393 A
[13:58:47] <morficmobile> Servo Amplifier - A06B-6058-H005 No F3Y 00389-B
[13:58:47] <morficmobile> Servo Amplifier - A06B-6058-H006 No F3Y 00462-B
[14:06:20] <JT-Hardinge> seems to be a lot of folks that will sell you a rebuilt one but no hits for a manual
[14:06:24] <JT-Hardinge> I'd call Fanuc
[14:07:34] <JT-Hardinge> or jump up and down and wave at robh__
[14:07:43] <morficmobile> i need to grep my logs when i get home, to go to the link SWPadnos gave me for a 3kW servo, and then go to those specs and ask y'all what about the specs shows it will work, so i can learn what to look for, since boss has drives/servos coming for a new machine he wants to build anyway
[14:08:16] <JT-Hardinge> is this machine dead?
[14:08:27] <morficmobile> i think all of this made him realize how little this subject was researched up to now, since he told the cad guy "you do realize, all of this is stuff you need to know for the new machine, right?"
[14:08:35] <morficmobile> 12LC is very much alive
[14:09:51] <morficmobile> the machines have no macros and can't probe, so instead of paying fanuc to upgrade the controls, he wanted something open, he had been talking about opencnc for years, but figured now is the time to look into it for real
[14:10:27] <JT-Hardinge> so they still run but need upgrading
[14:10:30] <morficmobile> opencnc replied WAY late and with a WAY high quote, including 4 weeks of dev time and what not
[14:10:38] <morficmobile> JT-Hardinge: exactly
[14:10:58] <morficmobile> and we would like to not tie us into another proprietary system, which is what camsoft smells like
[14:12:26] <morficmobile> even "opencnc" does not sound very open
[14:12:41] <JT-Hardinge> yea, I'd call fanuc us on monday and see if you can get the manuals or at the least the pinouts for your drives
[14:12:49] <morficmobile> and why is there a opencnc.sf.net ?
[14:13:26] <toastydeath> you better have a couple hundred bucks if you want any manuals
[14:13:33] <morficmobile> yeah, designer got on phone and called Daewoo/Doosan instead who have limited records and had no idea what we wanted from them
[14:14:22] <JT-Hardinge> $200 is peanuts for a machine conversion when the manuals can save you hours and hours of head scratching
[14:14:52] <JT-Hardinge> yea, you need to call Fanuc direct for drive info
[14:15:14] <morficmobile> $200 is less than one hour of downtime
[14:15:36] <tom3p> chuck these drives and motors. dont get tied into Fanuc by figuring out how to save this one little bit. get solutions you can apply to any machine. no borgs allowed.
[14:16:44] <JT-Hardinge> there's nothing wrong with keeping the drives and motors if they work and you only need to find out what 10 wires are...
[14:16:57] <pcw_home> Those amps sure look like bare power stages (may have current sense and overcurrent/fault circuits as well)
[14:16:57] <tom3p> imagine what this attempt would be like if they had some off the shelf motor and amp right now. you'd interweb up the manuals in a few seconds
[14:17:29] <morficmobile> tom3p: if i can quote a 10HP servo with drive and a 40HP spindle drive, i would prefer to suggest that, consider we chose camsoft, they hook it up and it works, then the drives die and we want to switch, more oney for changes on camsoft setup, so i rather suggest switching to a known factor now, and get all the right mesa bits to make it work now
[14:17:56] <morficmobile> pcw_home: you do work for mesa?
[14:18:04] <tom3p> right
[14:18:05] <pcw_home> Yep
[14:18:05] <morficmobile> 'morning
[14:18:58] <morficmobile> do you know a place that carries 10hp servos+Drives that we can tie to 5i22+7i33 blind folded?
[14:20:12] <pcw_home> Those motors sure dont look like 10 HP (11A stall 144V is more like .7HP)
[14:20:36] <morficmobile> i rather not wait until i get any info from the CAD guy who is researching drives right now, next wednesday is last meeting before deadline
[14:20:52] <tom3p> 10hp/7.5kW is a bunch, is this a press?
[14:21:07] <morficmobile> 1.584kW is .7 HP?
[14:21:39] <pcw_home> 1.548 KW stall is about 500W cont = ~.7 HP
[14:22:06] <morficmobile> pcw_home: i ran with 10HP and 40HP boss threw out, and i just googled up the Model 10 specs today, another reason why we wanted spec sheets
[14:22:35] <morficmobile> spindle does seem to be 28/35 actually
[14:23:17] <pcw_home> 10 HP servo would be for an enormous machine
[14:23:36] <morficmobile> z is 20A stall 146V based on quick ebay auction spec finding
[14:24:07] <morficmobile> so about 1kW continuous ?
[14:24:12] <pcw_home> so about 1 KW
[14:24:31] <morficmobile> stall == 3 * continuous, roughly?
[14:25:12] <pcw_home> roughly
[14:25:17] <morficmobile> what we got then is ~1.4 HP?
[14:25:44] <Valen> morficmobile a 7Kw servo motor is a decent motor for doing an electric conversion on a car with
[14:25:44] <morficmobile> then i'll have to find SWPadnos's link at home, that was a 3kW servo
[14:26:24] <tom3p> 3kw at automationdirect.com ?
[14:26:47] <morficmobile> i think that's what it was, but i don't have access to notes from here
[14:27:02] <pcw_home> something like 1.4 HP + strange Fanuc encoders (Pico Systems has a Fanuc encoder "normalizer)
[14:27:05] <morficmobile> i think i need to put this on a wiki, so i have one set of notes accesible from anywhere
[14:27:44] <Valen> morficmobile, can you take some photos of the electronics of the drives with their "clothes off"?
[14:28:06] <Valen> it just seems wastefull to replace the drives if you can find out how to interface to them
[14:28:14] <morficmobile> pcw_home: ok, the encoders are normalized, i am left wondering what to do with the +-10V signals
[14:29:11] <morficmobile> Valen: if we can figure out how to talk to them, knowing we can reuse the boards to talk to other off the shelf items that are not special to Fanuc juju, then it would be worth keeping them for now and changing a daughterboard later
[14:29:33] <morficmobile> i would not want to invest into anything i can not reuse on newer drives later
[14:29:38] <pcw_home> Normalized so the motors can be used with a AMC amp or some such
[14:29:42] <Valen> with the brushless if you change the controller you will probably need to get new motors etc
[14:29:53] <Valen> PCW_home I believe his motors are brushless
[14:30:09] <pcw_home> Yes thats probably the easiest route
[14:31:08] <pcw_home> I think it might be possible to use the original amps/motors but its a project
[14:31:27] <morficmobile> emc is a project, i would like to avoid side projects
[14:31:35] <Valen> pcw_home I think all he really needs is an oscilloscope and 10 minutes ;->
[14:31:54] <pcw_home> :-)
[14:33:02] <tom3p> morfic, what happens if you figger out how to communicate with the Fanuc drive and later, a Fanuc drive goes south? where do you get a replacement? look for one on eBay? call up the parts pirates? Fanuc stoppe dmaking them years agao.
[14:33:08] <SWPadnos> morficmobile, are you talking about automationdirect?
[14:33:18] <SWPadnos> (for the 3kw servo)
[14:33:40] <pcw_home> Well lets see, Get EMC to support our 3PPWM module, figure out the current feedback from the Fanuc drives, figure out the encoder scheme, get FOC running in EMC....
[14:34:19] <pcw_home> (maybe a little more than 10 minutes)
[14:34:27] <tom3p> heh
[14:34:44] <Valen> pcw_home I was hoping that there would be another module running that that he could tap into
[14:35:31] <SWPadnos> the schematics appeared to show a normal encoder, in addition to some other "abnormal" stuff
[14:35:34] <pcw_home> The drives look like bare power stages, driveable but a project
[14:36:33] <pcw_home> (I think the abnormal stuff is what Jons doohicky fixes)
[14:36:51] <morficmobile> SWPadnos: i am
[14:36:54] <pcw_home> (convers to normal Hall like signals)
[14:37:03] <tom3p> beware of fanuc schemas... they show cables. those cables hook to many Fanuc drives, and motors, so YOUR motor may have the abso grey scale but may only have the ABZ
[14:37:16] <SWPadnos> http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Motion_Control
[14:37:34] <SWPadnos> that's the root for motors and drives
[14:37:47] <morficmobile> http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Motion_Control/Servo_Systems/Drives_-a-_Motors_Components/SVM-230B i looked at this
[14:38:51] <pcw_home> Thats still a lot bigger than what you have
[14:39:31] <morficmobile> pcw_home: yes, i consider this worst case cost, i need to ensure the stall amps and voltage i found is what we indeed have
[14:40:04] <morficmobile> pcw_home: this is more a "their sureservo drive works with 7I33s"
[14:40:24] <SWPadnos> the current and voltage don't have to match for the motors to have equal torque
[14:41:07] <SWPadnos> if they do, then the motors should be pretty close to each other (like, within 50% maybe?), but if they don't, that doesn't mean that the motors are radically different
[14:41:28] <SWPadnos> what you need to look at is continuous torque, possible peak torque, and max RPM
[14:41:36] <SWPadnos> possibly
[14:42:22] <morficmobile> based on the scans i see model 10 fanuc motor and model 20 (Z Axis) fanuc motor, i had two sources list the model 10 as 11A stall, so the servos would be a lot weaker than boss has our cad guy research/look for
[14:43:44] <morficmobile> what i linked says "velocity control mode" is "analog input command" which is +-10V bipolar, which is what i would be looking for to interface with a 7i33, correct?
[14:43:58] <pcw_home> Yep
[14:45:31] <morficmobile> and the encoder out put they describe works too? "Scalable Encoder Output Encoder signal output A, /A, B, /B, Z /Z, Line Driver"
[14:46:14] <SWPadnos> yep
[14:46:23] <morficmobile> thank you
[14:46:33] <morficmobile> all it takes is two "yep" to make my day!
[14:47:05] <tom3p> used that model ( not with emc ) its beefy , easy to set up. good bang for the buck, easy to get another asap
[14:47:27] <Valen> morficmobile, if you want to you can put linear scales on the machine and potentially get some more accuracy out of it
[14:47:45] <morficmobile> if the servo was 3kW and the ball screw and everything was designed around a 1kW servo, could it all be tuned so acceleration and deceleration make a happy machine, or could i end up ripping up the ball screw?
[14:48:02] <tom3p> the mesa stuff will interface with it fine. you will need a coupler maybe to mechanicly join it to the transmission ( maybe right to screw )
[14:48:32] <pcw_home> Also too large a motor may not fit...
[14:49:20] <morficmobile> that is one more point if the C1X, C2X, C4X, C8X on the diagrams suggest a absolute encoder on the servos we have, do we lose accuracy, so far i saw no indication the linked servos has anything absolute on it
[14:49:28] <Valen> should talk to danimal, his machine is in the same kind of ballpark as yours
[14:49:42] <tom3p> you can get full cad dwgs from AD
[14:49:44] <Valen> the absolute encoder would be for commutation of the brushless drive
[14:50:05] <Dave911> morficmobile .. are you in the USA?
[14:50:34] <morficmobile> Dave911: i am
[14:50:49] <morficmobile> close to San Antonio, Texas
[14:51:13] <morficmobile> closer to Seguin, TX (but then people go "where?")
[14:51:48] <morficmobile> commutation == direction?
[14:52:01] <Dave911> The sureservo from AD do work nicely. I've been testing some other drives (PCW and SWPadnos helped me out last night) from MachMotion.com even cheaper than AD drives and they are working well so far. I think this drive maker, makes them for AD.
[14:52:19] <SWPadnos> Teco, I think you said
[14:52:24] <Dave911> The software, parameters, etc are not quite identical, but really close...
[14:53:00] <Dave911> Yep, TECO is the brand. Made by TED Motors in Taiwain.. I have no idea where TECO came from..
[14:53:22] <SWPadnos> TED Electric CO maybe :)
[14:53:29] <Dave911> BTW, I'm running at the speed I need now, no problem...
[14:53:33] <SWPadnos> cool
[14:53:58] <morficmobile> Dave911: what speed is that btw?
[14:54:07] <Dave911> Probably something like that .... but when you dig into the web sites in Taiwain it almost appears that TED Motors and TECO are two different companies..
[14:54:42] <Dave911> I needed to be able run at 1350 rpm on this motor scaled to 1500 ipm in EMC2..
[14:54:44] <morficmobile> Dave911: sales/manufacturing split into two companies?
[14:55:04] <morficmobile> you run at 1500 IPM?
[14:55:39] <Dave911> Perhaps, pretty confusing on their website. Max speed is 1500 ipm, but I am not cutting metal..
[14:55:57] <morficmobile> 1500IPM is a nice rapid speed
[14:56:01] <Dave911> It is for a custom machine feeding a strip of material at 1500 ipm
[14:56:41] <tom3p> Dave911, i looked at your hal and ini. where do you "feed the X command to the PID, which drives the Stepgen in velocity mode" ?
[14:56:42] <morficmobile> tom3p: actually, now where IPM are on the mind, boss always wonders if current rapid speeds could be changed, changing control + drives might get him that
[14:58:05] <Dave911> Anyway, just for comparison, I think the 1 KW medium inertia motor from AD is about $1350 with cables. The same TECO motor and drive (and they even look similar) is about $700.
[14:58:07] <tom3p> morfic, beware of how stiff your machine is... they didnt give you a greta machine and cheap drives... they made everything good enuf. i doubt you can get more than 20% increase out of a system built for production
[14:58:59] <Dave911> tom3p, I don't have the PID loop in that hal setup, actually I don't have that part done yet.. I need to rig the encoder up on this test setup and get to that probably today ....
[14:59:23] <tom3p> Dave, i worked in Taichung, and couldnt buy the AD from thier DaLi factory, had to have them sent in from USA
[14:59:25] <morficmobile> tom3p: tell my boss that, i don't think they build one machine with weakest to strongest motors, would be wasteful, but i am sure he will be tempted to try, i mean he is, and i don't think we can talk him out of it
[14:59:52] <Dave911> Will I have a problem.. with the X command to the PID?? I was thinking of mimicing the standard PIDs used in the servo setups... just output the PID to the stepgens setpoint
[15:00:15] <morficmobile> Dave911: thanks, great info, i guess i search machmotion.com later, i now have some parts i need to finish programming
[15:00:50] <SWPadnos> Dave911, no, don't do that
[15:00:55] <tom3p> morfic, they dont sell a given machine with different motors. ask to see a fanuc robomill with 40kw spindle... no, it japanese 'we sell it this way'
[15:01:00] <SWPadnos> use the stepgen in velocity mode, not position mode
[15:01:28] <SWPadnos> the stepgen in position mode has a pseudo-PID in it already, and you don't want to tune the external PID around that
[15:01:59] <tom3p> Dave911, i just dont get the idea, PID wont have position in and velocity out, units are not so dissimilar in to out
[15:02:44] <SWPadnos> tom3p, they can be, the coefficients are in different units
[15:02:45] <Dave911> SW... that is what I was going to do... velocity mode... but I need to correct the final position via an encoder input ....
[15:03:02] <SWPadnos> in fact, the normal input is position and output is velocity
[15:03:11] <SWPadnos> Dave911, that's a PID thing
[15:03:16] <Dave911> I thought a loop around the stepgen would do it...
[15:03:20] <SWPadnos> not a stepgen thing
[15:03:49] <SWPadnos> yes. maybe I just misinterpreted "stepgen setpoint" as position. if you're planning on using velocity, that's good
[15:04:21] <Dave911> Yes, I thought the stepgen input if it is in velocity mode would be a velocity input?
[15:04:31] <SWPadnos> yes
[15:04:37] <SWPadnos> nevermind. my bad
[15:04:42] <morficmobile> tom3p: was just trying to say that they decided on parameters/limits and put on motors just strong enough with ball screws just strong enough on a frame just strong enough
[15:05:07] <tom3p> hmm always thought the output was new position and something else found velocity from the difference between the 2 positions
[15:05:07] <Dave911> OK, cool.... no problem... I'd rather everyone ask questions before I find out the hard way it doesn't work.. :-)
[15:06:42] <Dave911> There are both velocity type PID loops and position type PID loops..
[15:07:00] <Dave911> I don't know if there are both in EMC2 or not ..
[15:07:14] <morficmobile> if we have this absolute encoder for commutation now, and with the AD drive there is no such absolute encoder, what does that mean to us, in use on the machine?
[15:07:36] <Dave911> Not that far into it yet.. but will be soon....
[15:07:39] <tom3p> ok, i cant see posn in & vel out from the man page , it suggest units are same in to out, will look further " pid.N.error float out The difference between command and feedback."
[15:08:12] <pcw_home> morficmobile: Nothing, thats between the motor and the drive
[15:09:04] <tom3p> morfic, i agree, just enuf all the way around, cant drop a vette into a vw
[15:09:23] <Dave911> If you get rid of both the existing motor and the existing drive and replace them with new stuff... you should be set....
[15:09:34] <pcw_home> ( the AD drive probably has standard HAL type signals on its encoder connector)
[15:09:43] <SWPadnos> tom3p, the coefficients determine the relation between the input and output
[15:10:06] <SWPadnos> FF0 is proportional to command input, so that would be a component that's in the same units as the input
[15:10:31] <SWPadnos> FF1 is first derivative, so the output would be in units that are the derivative of command
[15:10:35] <Dave911> On the AD drives, the encoder output signals are brought out the breakout board ... via screw terminals, easy to tie into.
[15:10:37] <SWPadnos> (velocity, for a position input)
[15:10:59] <SWPadnos> P, I, and D are also integrals and derivatives of some unit
[15:11:13] <SWPadnos> (and proportional, of course)
[15:11:59] <tom3p> newman sez " pid.N.error float out proportional to the difference between command and feedback."
[15:12:27] <SWPadnos> yes. command and feedback have to be the same units, but the control output doesn't have to be the same as those
[15:12:45] <morficmobile> pcw_home: it's just a design choice when outlining the pair of drive/servo
[15:12:47] <tom3p> ok, thats VERY good info for any process control
[15:12:55] <tom3p> thanks
[15:12:57] <SWPadnos> otherwise it would be impossible to use PID to drive a velocity or torque mode servo :)
[15:12:59] <SWPadnos> sure
[15:13:27] <Dave911> That is just the error difference ..
[15:13:29] <Dave911> So the FF1 is the first derrivative of position, which is velocity .... and the FF0 is the position output.. ??
[15:13:30] <SWPadnos> I bet it's the most common to have the PID output be in units that are the derivative of the control/feedback units
[15:13:45] <morficmobile> pcw_home: so "Scalable Encoder Output Encoder signal output A, /A, B, /B, Z /Z, Line Driver" over the pitch of the ball screw would determine the accuracy that's achievable?
[15:13:55] <morficmobile> pcw_home: mispaste
[15:14:10] <SWPadnos> Dave911, yes. imagine a solenoid-like linear actuator - you need an output that's proportional to the actual position of the actuator, to keep it in place
[15:14:20] <SWPadnos> in addition to other components
[15:14:57] <morficmobile> pcw_home: so "2,500 line count encoder (10,000 counts per revolution) "over the pitch of the ball screw would determine the accuracy that's achievable?
[15:15:00] <Dave911> Right... I always use to use valve position as an example of something that is controlled with a "position", pid.
[15:15:15] <morficmobile> odd page, ctrl-c just didn't work, had to right click to copy
[15:15:17] <SWPadnos> or joints in EMC :)
[15:15:42] <Dave911> OK ....
[15:16:22] <Valen> morficmobile you also need to be aware of the accuracy of the ballscrew in your machine
[15:16:39] <Valen> you can compensate for errors in it but you need to measure it to do that
[15:17:42] <pcw_home> Accuracy depends on a a lot of things the 10000 counts/rev is the upper bound of the resolution
[15:18:05] <Valen> it might help with a smoother servo loop though
[15:18:31] <morficmobile> Valen: i meant if that is a way i can get from impulses per revolution to inch/impulse, or if there are other factors aside from that
[15:18:58] <Dave911> If someone buys the TECO cheap drives from MachMotion.com, go buy the AD breakout kits for the CN1 50 pin connector. MachMotion does not offer a screw terminal breakout for CN1 which sort of sucks, but AD is happy to supply them The terminal labels are not right on the breakout from AD but that is no big problem.. They plug right in.. :-)
[15:19:01] <Valen> no thats generally the way
[15:19:11] <SWPadnos> those sevos will probably directly drive the screw, which (on a large-ish machine) will probably be between 5 and 1 TPI (my hunch anyway)
[15:19:41] <Valen> but yeah, linear scales for feedback is my pet project morficmobile
[15:19:44] <SWPadnos> getting between 10000 and 50000 counts/inch is right in the ballpark
[15:20:06] <morficmobile> SWPadnos: from the times i saw it 3-5 might be it, i'd like to rule out 1 and 2 from memory
[15:20:07] <tom3p> i automatically read FeedForward when I saw FFn in the PID . true?
[15:20:08] <SWPadnos> linear scales work, we did that on the G&L at Stuart's place
[15:20:16] <SWPadnos> tom3p, yes
[15:20:27] <Valen> at .001mm we get 25000 per inch give or take, and its as accurate as the glass in the scale
[15:20:45] <SWPadnos> morficmobile, I don't have a numbered list in front of me - what are you talking about? :)
[15:20:53] <morficmobile> i'm just wondering what to expect w/o adding scales
[15:21:03] <Valen> it'll be as good as your screws
[15:21:11] <Valen> they come in different grades
[15:21:57] <Dave911> Scales are really nice on a big machine... you can get scary accurate with them if the machine is good..
[15:22:08] <morficmobile> SWPadnos: i mean your 5-1 TPI is about right, if we pretend it is 2 TPI (the ballscrew) and the encoder is doing 10000 impulses per revolution, then we would get 1/2"/10000 or .00005"/impulse, am i seeing this right
[15:22:20] <SWPadnos> yes
[15:22:30] <morficmobile> no gear in the middle in that math
[15:22:36] <Valen> 2 TPI is pretty low, IE its a fairly fast screw
[15:22:37] <SWPadnos> rigth
[15:22:39] <SWPadnos> err
[15:22:41] <SWPadnos> right
[15:22:49] <morficmobile> Valen: my guess is 4-5 TPI
[15:22:58] <Valen> 5 most likley would be my guess
[15:22:58] <morficmobile> i used 2 since it's a worst case accuracy
[15:23:10] <Valen> odds are its an integer number into inches
[15:23:18] <SWPadnos> Valen, it's a larger machine, so I'm assuming that the screw is a larger diameter than my BP, which may make the screw lower TPI
[15:23:54] <Valen> could be, I know you can get 25mm screws in 5TPI without trying too hard
[15:24:05] <morficmobile> 2 TPI i hope is save side
[15:24:13] <Valen> IE inch diameter
[15:24:20] <Valen> morfic measure it
[15:24:50] <tom3p> i used AD motors on 2 sets of machines ( 6 rebuilt sinkers & 6 new hopops). we allowed for linear scales in each, but began with new HiWin ballscrews on all.
[15:24:51] <morficmobile> Valen: right, i might ask for them to "uncover" it anyway if we want specs based on motor part#
[15:24:51] <tom3p> we never went to the expense of adding the scales and are confident in the 1um feedback repeatability.
[15:25:00] <morficmobile> to verify the stall amps i found are correct
[15:25:35] <Valen> morficmobile, I meant by putting calipers on the screws and counting the turns over an inch
[15:25:40] <morficmobile> Valen: when we got covers off, i would measure pitch
[15:25:45] <Valen> yah
[15:26:05] <Valen> what you want more than stall current is stall torque
[15:26:11] <morficmobile> just pointing at the fact none is uncovered on the lathe ATM
[15:26:17] <tom3p> ( i lied we used Panasonic on those hopops Z , sorry )
[15:26:29] <Valen> thats what your really trying to match in terms of performance
[15:26:59] <Valen> If your going to a brushed DC motor you can expect that the torque is going to be higher for a given amperage, but the RPM will be lower at the same voltage
[15:27:09] <morficmobile> 12Nm stall torque
[15:27:17] <Valen> thats fairly low
[15:27:49] <morficmobile> i think the AD stuff is nice in that ball park
[15:28:47] <Valen> 1Nm = 141 ounce inches sound right?
[15:29:43] <Valen> so the S28-400 http://www.magmotor.com/brushed/brushed.html would hit that for you
[15:29:59] <Valen> they are about $300-400 last I looked
[15:30:35] <Valen> and I believe the 2.2Kw drive from mesa will push that around fairly handily, though last I looked there there was no price on them
[15:30:54] <Valen> so I'm not sure if they are being sold,
[15:31:41] <JT-Hardinge> we use Panasonics on all our automation equipment
[15:34:14] <tom3p> why panasonic? ( i had to have as high an acc as possible, so went o Pana for that feature in thier 'ultra low mass rotor' design )
[15:34:50] <tom3p> good stuff but my 1st choice is always lo buck ;)
[15:34:51] <JT-Hardinge> we get good service from the Panasonic rep
[15:34:59] <JT-Hardinge> and best pricing
[15:35:39] <tom3p> good points, you do more than build 1 machine.
[15:35:45] <JT-Hardinge> yep
[15:36:10] <JT-Hardinge> I can get the same pricing for one machine or for anyone else
[15:36:26] <tom3p> logger bookmark ;)
[15:36:33] <JT-Hardinge> :)
[15:37:55] <JT-Hardinge> for small stuff they have a step and direction drive that we couple to a PLC and can get 3k rpm from the motor if needed
[15:38:20] <JT-Hardinge> coupled to a Tolomatic slide and you have an instant axis
[15:38:41] <mcvalido> Hi there, can anyone tell me if in EMC2 there is a way to count the impulses for each axis that EMC2 sends on parallel port interface during a work?
[15:39:04] <tom3p> they were cleaner and smaller than the yaskawas, nicer snap on connectors ( tho i lost most of the little plastic 'tools' ) i think they had built in fans?
[15:40:02] <JT-Hardinge> mcvalido: I'm guessing you want to look at stepgen
[15:40:52] <mcvalido> ok thank you very much, I'll give a look to that!
[15:42:39] <JT-Dev> stepgen.n.counts should be what your looking for
[15:43:29] <mcvalido> I appreciate, thank you very much JT-Dev and JT-Hardinge
[15:43:41] <JT-Dev> same person different computers
[15:44:15] <mcvalido> :-)
[15:48:16] <morficmobile> ah, too bad, valen quit, was gonna tell him thanks for reminding me about those 2.2kW drives at mesa, now where i know i won't need 10HP motors ;)
[15:52:53] <morficmobile> pcw_home: 8I20 is not sold anymore?
[15:55:00] <morficmobile> * morficmobile thinks AD or machmotion do seem like better route to go though, no need to save money on the wrong end
[15:57:08] <pcw_home> 8I20 is availble to beta testers only now
[15:58:27] <frallzor> hmm milling 13mm mdf with a 3mm mill and 10000mm/min feed, should that work in one pass?
[15:58:44] <morficmobile> thanks, gonna keep looking at sureservo or their mach motion/teco equivalent
[15:58:53] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[15:59:19] <morficmobile> frallzor: how deep?
[15:59:28] <frallzor> 13mm =)
[16:00:01] <frallzor> im mostly asking because it didnt really work for me :P
[16:00:12] <morficmobile> 393IPM, what's the rpm?
[16:00:19] <frallzor> 24000
[16:00:32] <morficmobile> how many flutes?
[16:00:47] <frallzor> 2 i think
[16:01:30] <morficmobile> .008"/flute chipload seems high for a 4x diam. depth (mind you i have my head in metal not wood, still seems high)
[16:02:19] <frallzor> well it probably is high
[16:02:25] <frallzor> broke the tool =P
[16:02:30] <morficmobile> * morficmobile imagines frallzor collected something with wood packed in the flutes from the floor
[16:03:28] <JT-Dev> holy moly that is smaller than a 1/8" end mill
[16:04:46] <frallzor> soooooo not really a good idea then? :P
[16:04:51] <morficmobile> JT-Dev: YES, .118"
[16:05:50] <JT-Dev> * JT-Dev spends hours and hours milling little pockets with 1/8" 4 flute end mills
[16:05:54] <morficmobile> frallzor: chips need to go somewhere, maybe with really good air blowing the dust out, you could get 1/4 of what you tried
[16:06:06] <JT-Dev> with a DOC of 0.025"
[16:06:51] <JT-Dev> I imagine the pocket was packed with chips behind the cutter?
[16:06:53] <morficmobile> JT-Dev: we did small little stuff with 1/8 followed by 1/16 endmills but that was in aluminum and we did not get close to .016"/flute either, n/m the DoC
[16:08:11] <JT-Dev> my last project was with 1018 and 4142 making a tiny device to index a tiny carb jet and insert it into the carb body of a lawn mower engine
[16:08:32] <morficmobile> sounds neat
[16:08:39] <JT-Dev> oh and check it to see if the feeder bowl fed it the right way around
[16:08:50] <morficmobile> * morficmobile like knowing where his parts go, not so sure on the stuff we make here
[16:08:53] <JT-Dev> it ended up pretty sweet
[16:09:15] <frallzor> oh well, one learns byt its mistakes =)
[16:09:25] <frallzor> *by
[16:09:47] <JT-Dev> * JT-Dev is going to transform to JT-Hardinge and see if he can get the collet closer to work again on another SSR
[16:11:30] <morficmobile> "experience is the ability to learn from your mistakes"
[16:11:36] <morficmobile> * morficmobile has lots of experience.....
[16:16:20] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[16:51:15] <JT-Hardinge> the more air leaks I fix the more smaller ones show up :)
[16:51:31] <morficmobile> can i take a guess from the X axis or Z Axis thrust in pounds to the motor size? the weaker machine has a 4000 pound thrust in X and 6000 pounds in Z
[16:51:52] <morficmobile> JT-Hardinge: you mean the louder larger ones no longer overpower the smaller ones you can hear now? :)
[16:54:21] <JT-Hardinge> yea LOL
[16:54:39] <morficmobile> oh c'mon, he has the same sales info of the 12LC, says AC Servo motor model 10S and Model 20S, i could have used this info long ago, instead of finding it on the scans
[16:54:50] <morficmobile> feed thrust spec is same as on other machine
[16:56:13] <morficmobile> 12LC just has lower max rpm and higher spindle torque
[16:58:39] <morficmobile> 2" ball screw, no mention of pitch
[16:59:37] <morficmobile> look at that
[16:59:40] <morficmobile> specs!
[16:59:58] <morficmobile> 1.8kW for for X servo motor
[17:00:05] <SWPadnos> heh. see :)
[17:00:06] <morficmobile> 3.5kW for Z axis motor
[17:00:09] <morficmobile> man
[17:00:12] <SWPadnos> that's a big-ass motor
[17:00:19] <morficmobile> right there, no "we have nothing on this"
[17:00:39] <SWPadnos> look at the torque specs though - power is torque * speed
[17:01:09] <morficmobile> yes
[17:01:50] <morficmobile> what you are getting at is, if we find a motor with the same torque, and we never would reach their max rpm, it would still work the same for us?
[17:02:02] <SWPadnos> depending on the type of machining you do, a slower motor with higher torque may actually be able to decrease cycle times
[17:02:09] <SWPadnos> pretty much
[17:02:47] <SWPadnos> or one with somewhat higher torque (have to be careful about breaking the machine), would decrease acceleration times, so contouring would speed up a bit
[17:04:38] <morficmobile> might be more interesting on the mills perhaps
[17:04:51] <SWPadnos> could be
[17:04:58] <morficmobile> lathes are not contouring that much
[17:05:16] <morficmobile> we do a bit of surfacing on the mills, mostly in 718
[17:05:19] <SWPadnos> even going back and forth (like in a G71/G72 cycle) has a lot of accel
[17:05:28] <SWPadnos> every reversal
[17:05:42] <morficmobile> ok, noted
[17:06:06] <morficmobile> accel and decel is what emc figures to stop at the right place?
[17:06:20] <SWPadnos> that's part of it, yes
[17:07:44] <morficmobile> how can i get from feed thrust in pounds to torque of the motor? the motors i found based on model 10/20 are so much weaker than the spec in this sales brochure makes them sound like?
[17:08:42] <morficmobile> i could take the rated kW and use the rated rpm to get to another torque number maybe
[17:10:22] <SWPadnos> force = torque/length (since torque is force * length)
[17:11:06] <SWPadnos> and there's a 2*pi in there too :)
[17:13:01] <morficmobile> i refresh my mind at home, i just don't have it all memorized, but it's pretty basic stuff, just want to see what i come up with, comparing the stall amps * voltage kW to the torque * length kW
[17:14:39] <morficmobile> 2xpi? if you calculate with the radius of the ball screw you mean? if you look at a lever from the center of the rotation rather than the diameter of the ball screw?
[17:14:53] <SWPadnos> no, not the screw
[17:15:03] <SWPadnos> (in metric) torque is in newton-meters
[17:15:16] <SWPadnos> so a force of N newtons at a radius of 1 meter
[17:15:48] <morficmobile> right
[17:15:50] <SWPadnos> I'm trying to look up the formula, to make sure I don't screw it up foolishly
[17:16:17] <morficmobile> but the lever in action is the ballscrew, no?
[17:16:28] <SWPadnos> I think the screw diameter ends up canceling out
[17:16:50] <pcw_home> so if your ball screw moved Pi meters per turn you would have a N push
[17:17:27] <SWPadnos> I think it may be torque * 2*pi*number of turns per meter
[17:17:31] <SWPadnos> or something like that
[17:17:54] <SWPadnos> (in metric anyway)
[17:18:38] <SWPadnos> yeah, that makes sense - it's the equivalent motion of our phantom 1 meter lever that causes the machine to move 1 meter
[17:18:47] <SWPadnos> (I could convince myself of just about anything :) )
[17:18:57] <pcw_home> right 2 Pi
[17:18:59] <pcw_home> so 12 NM is about 8 foot pounds so 8 pounds push with a 6 foot pitch BS
[17:19:25] <morficmobile> metric if i want Nm, it's a .05M diameter ball screw, so that makes it easy ;)
[17:19:38] <SWPadnos> the screw diameter cancels out, I'm pretty sure :)
[17:19:47] <pcw_home> diameter is irrelvant
[17:20:30] <pcw_home> ~3000 lbs push with .2" patch BS
[17:20:40] <pcw_home> (pitch)
[17:21:35] <SWPadnos> yep - that's 8 foot*pounds * 2*pi*60 turns/foot
[17:21:36] <morficmobile> so the length is the pitch
[17:21:50] <SWPadnos> 3141.592653589 or so :)
[17:22:16] <SWPadnos> oops - 8 *60 ~=500, and 8 is inexact too - oh well :)
[17:22:29] <pcw_home> all just lever arms...
[17:22:55] <pcw_home> well 12/ 1.35xxx isnt 8 either
[17:23:11] <morficmobile> i didn't look at the screw as a wedge, hence being so desperate to find "length" in the diameter
[17:23:24] <SWPadnos> morficmobile, it's the ratio of how far you'd have to push that magic 1-foot lever (going back to imperial units of foot*pounds-force) to make the machine move one foot
[17:24:22] <morficmobile> if we stick to the current guesstimation, a 6000lbs thrust Z Axis then would be on a ~24Nm servo?
[17:24:23] <SWPadnos> if you have to do 60 turns of the screw (0.2" pitch * 12 inches/foot), then you would have to move that phantom lever 60 * 2*pi feet to move the table 1 foot
[17:24:59] <morficmobile> SWPadnos: got it
[17:25:05] <SWPadnos> yes, assuming 100% power transmission (close enough on a ballscrew - they're 90-95%) and a 5TPI direct-driven screw
[17:25:24] <morficmobile> right "all other parameters the same" :)
[17:25:52] <SWPadnos> well, that's the thing
[17:26:06] <SWPadnos> if you have a 2TPI screw, you need 2.5x the torque from the motor
[17:26:16] <SWPadnos> or you need 2.5:1 gearing
[17:26:22] <SWPadnos> (motor:screw)
[17:26:51] <SWPadnos> the torque to thrust calculation depends on the screw pitch and motor:screw gear ratio
[17:28:04] <morficmobile> the finer the pitch, the more thrust with the same torque motor
[17:28:09] <SWPadnos> yes
[17:28:21] <SWPadnos> more turns to get the same movement, so you need less power per turn
[17:28:23] <morficmobile> i so want to take off the covers RIGHT NOW
[17:28:26] <SWPadnos> heh
[17:28:46] <SWPadnos> didn't you say that one of the motors had 12 Nm torque?
[17:29:12] <pcw_home> (that was my 8 ft lbs)
[17:29:15] <morficmobile> it's what i found from two rebuilders, one had a website, one an ebay shop
[17:29:30] <pcw_home> ~~8 ft lbs
[17:30:13] <SWPadnos> gotta run. bbiab
[17:31:33] <morficmobile> 8.85 ft lbs
[17:32:24] <morficmobile> 3334 pounds thrust, so 24Nm would have 6669 pounds thrust
[17:33:00] <morficmobile> 6668* if pitch and all is same
[17:34:25] <morficmobile> X with 12Nm is on a 40mm BS, Z with ?? Nm is on a 50mm BS, so pitch might be different (again, gotta undress that lathe)
[17:38:32] <pcw_home> Ya, you wont know if theres a gear reduction either until you look (unless you have mechanical drawings)
[17:51:21] <JT-Hardinge> hmm, it seems to be working... I can see more of the floor now
[17:51:25] <morficmobile> pcw_home: ok, so some screws were in stripped holes, in other words, while i watched this up side down hinge on the panel i removed, the "bolted on" side come after my knuckles
[17:51:37] <morficmobile> but i have specs off motor labels
[17:58:59] <morficmobile> X: Model 10S, 12Nm, 7.6A @198V, Z: 23Nm, 20A @ 146V, both say: 3Ph, 8 Poles, Excit Perm Magnet,
[18:01:25] <morficmobile> pcw_home: and both are straight drives, no gears, "for smooth virtually backlash free operation" as the sales brochure says
[18:01:31] <pcw_home> So the real question is are those peak figures or continuous figures? when you buy a 1KW motor thats the continuous spec
[18:02:51] <morficmobile> stall
[18:03:17] <morficmobile> wait, there is a peak stall and continuous stall too
[18:03:32] <morficmobile> but the motors don't say which the one is that is printed
[18:04:27] <sealive> hi is it posible to get the G64 as default
[18:04:59] <pcw_home> usually a factor of about 3 between the two so dont under or over spec by mismatching the replacement
[18:05:07] <sealive> i broke today a part missing the G64P0.01
[18:05:21] <JT-Hardinge> it is default
[18:05:43] <sealive> it made all corners round
[18:05:59] <sealive> and not R1
[18:06:04] <JT-Hardinge> or are you asking for G64Pnn as default
[18:06:06] <sealive> it wars R5mm
[18:06:26] <sealive> i needet a sharp ege
[18:06:43] <morficmobile> pcw_home: i hope a call to fanuc monday can clear that up, especially since boss wants 10HP motors, without knowing what he needs
[18:06:46] <sealive> and i got all eges with a radius
[18:06:56] <JT-Hardinge> that is what G64 does
[18:07:45] <sealive> i millt then with G64P0.01 and then they where sharp as they shoud be
[18:07:53] <JT-Hardinge> sealive: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.4/html/common_User_Concepts.html#r1_1_3
[18:08:59] <JT-Hardinge> sealive: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html//config_ini_config.html#sub:[RS274NGC]-section
[18:09:12] <JT-Hardinge> RS274NGC_STARTUP_CODE
[18:09:52] <JT-Hardinge> * JT-Hardinge wanders off to wash his hands so he doesn't have to type with a paper towel over the keyboard
[18:13:45] <sealive> JT-Hardinge: thanks i will noe remenber that wars not cheep for me
[18:14:55] <JT-Hardinge> np
[18:16:21] <morficmobile> sealive: was fraest na?
[18:17:04] <sealive> holz in allen arten Spielzeugmodellbau
[18:18:24] <morficmobile> cool, when i hear it was expensive for you i can't help but wonder what you machine
[18:19:22] <sealive> http://www.pictureupload.de/originals/pictures/280310192538_traktor.jpg
[18:19:34] <sealive> killtr today 104 of thease
[18:20:26] <sealive> there are on one frame and all the eges where not sharp so nothing fits
[18:26:01] <morficmobile> ouch
[18:26:49] <morficmobile> * morficmobile puts G64 down as an option to remember
[18:27:35] <JT-Hardinge> sealive: nice model
[18:27:42] <morficmobile> JT-Hardinge: but if i leave G64 loose on purpose, it should speed up things like surfacing/3D motion, when we want rather smooth transitions anyway
[18:28:05] <morficmobile> i meant to make that a question not a statement :)
[18:28:19] <sealive> ik got to go !
[18:28:42] <JT-Hardinge> if you have a bunch of short arcs and lines the G64 Pn is faster as it invokes the naive cam detector
[18:28:58] <JT-Hardinge> just adjust the P to suit your part
[18:31:25] <morficmobile> JT-Hardinge: i guess i meant more tolerance == faster than smaller tolerance, like "don't make it default to always look for sharp corners, instead find a way to set a value in the post based on need"
[18:40:21] <morficmobile> anyone in here ever use Esprit (Cam software)?
[18:41:33] <JT-Hardinge> morficmobile: don't work that way :) the naive cam detector will connect short lines into one long line so your speed can stay near or at programmed speed
[18:42:02] <JT-Hardinge> then TP will not allow the machine to go faster than it can stop by the end of this move or the next
[18:42:54] <JT-Hardinge> take a look at the graphic at the end of this subsection http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.4/html/common_User_Concepts.html#r1_1_3
[18:44:45] <morficmobile> that sounds a whole lot like what cmasoft calls "smart path"
[18:56:00] <morficmobile> awe man, i pay dearly for not having had a newer program to base this on, it coul dbe drag'n'drop from here on out, but seems the way data is stored doesn't match, so it just ignores the old ops and i have to create new one instead :/
[18:56:04] <JT-Hardinge> dang I have more covers on the Hardinge than off :)
[18:57:10] <JT-Hardinge> I have a touch screen with a computer all in one... the monitor plugs into some funny sockets on the mobo anyone seen one like that
[18:58:36] <morficmobile> not in the wild
[19:02:09] <SWPadnos> JT-Hardinge, it's probably an LVDS connector
[19:02:36] <JT-Hardinge> ok, I'll google that and see if I can find a picture
[19:03:41] <SWPadnos> maybe one of these: http://en.b2b168.com/Member/UploadPicclip/20093250411610505.jpg
[19:04:22] <SWPadnos> or here: http://www.logicsupply.com/products/rgb_03
[19:06:43] <JT-Hardinge> doesn't look like any of those
[19:06:54] <SWPadnos> oh. hmm
[19:06:56] <JT-Hardinge> dang camera batteries are low and need charging
[19:07:28] <JT-Hardinge> it has AVG industrial PC on the side of the metal box
[19:07:59] <JT-Hardinge> it works with the windoz loaded on it but it is an old pc I think
[19:11:14] <JT-Hardinge> most likely easier just to purchase an ELO from new egg and be done with it LOL
[19:12:20] <JT-Hardinge> what do they mean by "5-wire resistive touch monitor"
[19:13:59] <SWPadnos> it's not capacitive or SAW, it's resistive
[19:14:33] <morficmobile> resistive is what makes me hate this Acer phone, the foil over the screen, stylus == good, no stylus though is :(
[19:14:40] <morficmobile> guess for large buttons it's good enough
[19:15:06] <JT-Hardinge> capacitive is better?
[19:15:20] <SWPadnos> generally, yes
[19:15:45] <SWPadnos> I think resistive have issues with crap on them, whereas capacitive are more crap-resistant
[19:15:51] <JT-Hardinge> and where does Surface Acoustic Wave fit
[19:15:58] <SWPadnos> but I don't know for sure - you may want to read the wikipedia page or something
[19:16:10] <SWPadnos> I think SAW is impervious to junk
[19:16:21] <JT-Hardinge> so the capacitive is better for dirty areas
[19:16:40] <SWPadnos> I think SAW may be the best, but I don't remember for sure
[19:16:47] <SWPadnos> it's also much more expensive, IIRC
[19:16:50] <JT-Hardinge> ok thanks
[19:17:37] <SWPadnos> http://www.touchscreens.com/intro-touchtypes.html
[19:17:39] <JT-Hardinge> elo has a SAW for $439
[19:18:26] <SWPadnos> it looks like capacitive may be best, but it has the disadvantage of needing a conductive touch - gloves won't work
[19:18:45] <JT-Hardinge> I could use my nose I guess in the winter
[19:19:09] <SWPadnos> heh
[19:21:53] <JT-Hardinge> this one fits the hole nice but is a bit pricy http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824217110
[19:24:51] <JT-Hardinge> * JT-Hardinge wanders off to take a nap and think about it
[19:25:12] <SWPadnos> I'd suggest getting one with a DVI input
[19:27:57] <archivist> hey we need to get daisy up on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh2AWswAMvw
[19:31:17] <morficmobile> we are trying to start on Esprit's feature recognition, but seeing how i could not reuse ops from a 2008 version file in 2010, what happens with our knowledge base stuff on future versions, i mean if they can convert the DB, then why not convert the op for me too? :)
[19:31:39] <morficmobile> * morficmobile is frustrated/hates Esprit in general anyway
[19:47:48] <morficmobile> ha, i need to check the gcode guide at home, runs this surfacing program tiny (sim that is)
[19:51:47] <morficmobile> but didn't need much to stop complaining, put the program # into comments, take out the G08 P1 and G08 P0 (corner slow down), used M2
[20:01:04] <morficmobile> G20, just say so :)
[20:08:26] <morficmobile> it's running the same surfacing operation now that is running outside right now :)
[20:08:48] <frallzor> weeey I figured it out
[20:08:56] <frallzor> didnt tighten the tool enough
[20:09:19] <frallzor> got loose and it didnt spin and just became a pin in a hole = broken =)
[20:13:34] <morficmobile> so more 0 rpm than 24k rpm
[20:13:55] <frallzor> well the tool :P
[20:14:04] <frallzor> the spindle was 24k rpm :P
[20:14:11] <morficmobile> frallzor: in that case let me know how your original chipload works in mdf
[20:15:06] <frallzor> i did 6mm a few minutes ago 6mm tool 8mm depth
[20:15:40] <frallzor> too bad I placed it where I messed up earlier, a line through the entire model :P
[20:15:44] <frallzor> but hey its only a test
[20:17:04] <frallzor> http://pici.se/p/large/ZhxcfZfAp/ some roughing =)
[20:17:10] <frallzor> will be doing the last part tomorrow
[20:27:46] <morficmobile> guess our fanuc's G00 G91 G28 Z0.0; G90; is what tripped up the sim, gonna fix this up emc style later
[20:28:19] <morficmobile> frallzor: oh, cool door?
[20:29:12] <frallzor> nah, just some model I found
[20:30:11] <frallzor> around 400x250mm large carving
[20:30:17] <frallzor> flowerstuff
[20:31:35] <morficmobile> oh um, /me hides, he found real problem for the sim stopping in middle of program
[20:33:33] <frallzor> ??
[20:33:45] <morficmobile> not gonna tell you :)
[20:33:56] <frallzor> im all done roughing
[20:34:00] <frallzor> 2 different programs =)
[20:34:06] <frallzor> 1 for roughing, 1 for finishing
[20:34:18] <frallzor> its back at 0,0,0 =)
[20:34:43] <morficmobile> i was so focused on what could be the problem on our program, i did not see the BIG green optional stop button
[20:37:57] <frallzor> im happy that my bloody ebaycomputer works like a charm
[20:38:46] <morficmobile> i would not buy anything bloody off ebay or craigslist
[20:39:33] <frallzor> I made a nice deal
[20:39:42] <frallzor> dustsafe industrial computer
[20:40:00] <frallzor> IP something something, perfect for dusty enviroments
[20:42:15] <morficmobile> i saw computers IP20, for comparison my caliper is IP67, i guess better than nothing (if this is a linear scale, not just a numbering system)
[20:43:32] <morficmobile> today went pretty good, got tons of good info from SWPadnos and pcw_home and others, got more info off the actual fanuc motors, run one of our programs on the emc sim w/o much headache at all, still got my stuff programmed, good Saturday
[20:43:57] <frallzor> IP54 it was
[20:44:07] <frallzor> pretty darn ok for a cnccomputer
[20:45:12] <JT-Hardinge> morficmobile: have a cold one on me then
[20:45:45] <morficmobile> JT-Hardinge: one of many yes, you got covers up, i got them down, both for success ;)
[20:46:04] <JT-Hardinge> cool
[20:46:17] <morficmobile> * morficmobile thinks it's best to thank "all", too many helpful souls around this part of town....
[20:46:29] <JT-Hardinge> I think I even figured out a sneaky way to get the feed override knob to work the way I want
[20:46:37] <JT-Hardinge> while I was napping
[20:48:38] <morficmobile> * morficmobile wonders if sim just stopped even though optional stop was toggled, sim continued after resume was hit
[20:48:57] <morficmobile> JT-Hardinge: you need to nap more
[20:49:18] <JT-Hardinge> I agree but other things seem to get in the way
[20:50:35] <frallzor> http://www.vimeo.com/10830189 a small pointless vid of the making of the flower stuff roughing :P
[21:03:14] <morficmobile> going home, thanks all
[21:03:31] <tom3p> i've never done anything like the flower stuff, hoe do you get rid of the ridges?
[21:03:34] <tom3p> gnite
[21:09:54] <frallzor> ridges?
[21:11:15] <frallzor> that you see there is roughing made by a 6mm tool, and outside the final dimensions by 1-2mm
[21:11:24] <frallzor> then ill do finishing with 3mm ball end
[21:12:39] <frallzor> http://www.pici.se/p/ZMkmOqWmm/ itll be as grand as this
[21:12:46] <frallzor> even better
[21:19:05] <frallzor> wonder if there is a business selling, joes 4x4 kits
[21:55:49] <frallzor> all dead allready? =)
[23:21:50] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away