#emc | Logs for 2010-04-04

[00:11:51] <WMParkFlyer> I am new here trying to learn ... head first
[00:12:42] <WMParkFlyer> I want to convert a pen plotter to a CNC router using the servos and encoders from the plotter
[00:14:23] <WMParkFlyer> I want to use the cards from Mesa Electronics ... what cards do I need to start with?
[00:15:06] <WMParkFlyer> I have some electronics training and some stepper motor training ... enough to be dangerous !!!
[00:15:18] <cradek> do you have something to drive the servo motors already, or are you wanting to buy that?
[00:15:44] <cradek> when you say router, what exactly do you mean? what will you want to cut with it?
[00:16:04] <cradek> the motors on a pen plotter are probably correctly sized for a pen plotter, not for cutting
[00:16:09] <WMParkFlyer> The plotter is intact and working so there should be a driver on board
[00:16:28] <WMParkFlyer> I am going to cut Depron and EPP foam
[00:17:15] <WMParkFlyer> I want to be able to mill with 2 spindles, one with a 1/8th bit and another with a 1/16th bit
[00:17:54] <WMParkFlyer> Chris I sent you an email but you must have missed it
[00:18:37] <WMParkFlyer> If needed I can gut the plotter all the way back to the servos and encoders, which ever way would be easier
[00:18:53] <cradek> possibly - I am unable to answer all mail I get.
[00:19:42] <cradek> seems like you might be interested in using the mesa 7i30 with 5i20
[00:19:50] <WMParkFlyer> by the way I hhave been a machinist for over 30 years and know G-Code well and am able to trouble shoot machine repair
[00:20:21] <cradek> I have not used the 7i30 but it looks like a simple way to drive small servos
[00:20:45] <cradek> you'd have to find out if 3A 36V is enough for your motors
[00:20:48] <WMParkFlyer> that is what I was thinking the 7i30 is a daughter card, correct?
[00:20:57] <cradek> yes
[00:21:25] <WMParkFlyer> I think that is the way I will go ...
[00:21:51] <cradek> I put small servos on a little lathe. I geared 2.5:1 or 3;1 to get as much power as I could, and it's still a bit underpowered
[00:22:10] <cradek> I'm suspicious that your motors might not be enough. If there's a way to experiment and see without a big investment, I recommend it
[00:22:49] <pfred1> don't servos just run on DC?
[00:22:58] <cradek> DC servos do
[00:23:14] <WMParkFlyer> need to be able to call up each spindle, I plan on mounting them each on a slide, the slide being mounted on my Z axis
[00:23:40] <WMParkFlyer> these are DC servos with encoder feedback
[00:23:50] <cradek> two spindles sounds interesting
[00:24:27] <WMParkFlyer> need to cut slots for wing spars without changing bits
[00:24:43] <pfred1> why?
[00:25:08] <WMParkFlyer> check out http://wmparkflyers.com and you will see what I am up to
[00:25:55] <WMParkFlyer> I want to be able to cut a complete kit without having to manualy change tools at a M00
[00:26:00] <cradek> cool. looks like not a lot of power is needed for that.
[00:26:27] <WMParkFlyer> have you seen Phlatboys printers?
[00:26:36] <cradek> guess not
[00:26:51] <WMParkFlyer> http://www.phlatboyz.com/
[00:27:42] <WMParkFlyer> That is what I am going for except I am mounting my spindle up top ... I think ...
[00:28:33] <WMParkFlyer> they use steppers on their setups but I want to use servos and encoders for feedback
[00:28:37] <pfred1> same as the sears carver
[00:29:15] <pfred1> guess their patent is worthless
[00:31:04] <pfred1> WMParkFlyer does a laser work with the material you want to cut?
[00:31:25] <cradek> yeah this screams laser/waterjet doesn't it
[00:32:04] <pfred1> it'd sure simplify the twin spindle deal I think
[00:33:30] <pfred1> then the servo power wouldn't be an issue either
[00:33:40] <WMParkFlyer> yes it could be cut with a laser but there would have to be a secondary operation to cut the slots
[00:34:05] <pfred1> WMParkFlyer why is that?
[00:34:45] <WMParkFlyer> water jet is another option however most of the shops that have a waterjet are to dirty and splash mud up on the foam
[00:35:04] <WMParkFlyer> the slots do not go all the way through the foam
[00:35:11] <pfred1> and?
[00:35:26] <pfred1> thats not a problem wiht lasers
[00:35:39] <WMParkFlyer> they are only deep enough to seat the carbon fibrer
[00:36:13] <pfred1> you'd better research what lasers can and can't do because they have no problem with relief carving from what I've seen of them
[00:36:16] <WMParkFlyer> can you control the depth of cut accurate enough in foam with a laser
[00:37:34] <WMParkFlyer> The laser might be a phase 2 option, ora second machine
[00:37:51] <WMParkFlyer> funds right now will not let me do both
[00:37:54] <pfred1> yeah when you tire of changing burnt out spindles right?
[00:38:11] <WMParkFlyer> I am bootstrapping the whole operation letting it build slow
[00:39:22] <WMParkFlyer> the spindles should last quite a long time ... I am planning on using Dotco pencil grinders mounted for spindles
[00:40:09] <pfred1> oh OK just so long as they're up for running hours at a time you're all set then
[00:40:50] <pfred1> most people try to use routers and they're really not up for the constant use
[00:41:48] <WMParkFlyer> as I am only cutting foam there will be little side load on the bearings, this stuff cuts like butter
[00:45:10] <pfred1> pneumatic is probably a good idea
[00:49:32] <pfred1> I'd still want to see what is cheape though the twin pneumatic or a laser
[00:50:43] <pfred1> because the laser would be a lot more flexible than rotary tooling
[00:56:46] <pfred1> * pfred1 needs to make some bipolar chopper stepper drives
[01:00:50] <WMParkFlyer> By the way Chris ... I like the Hardinge retrofit. I have many hours programing and running CHNC1 in an aeropsace Maching shop ... those machines are great for small parts
[01:00:51] <skunkworks> well - a mid 60 vintage proximity detector still seems to work well. (I think it is just a over-glorified metal detector)
[01:01:58] <skunkworks> it outputs -.7v for near and 10v for away ;) (thier words not mine)
[01:04:40] <pfred1> for out!
[01:05:00] <pfred1> I should get a metal detector
[01:16:15] <fluorine> hello, all
[01:17:23] <pfred1> hi
[01:22:49] <skunkworks> it is all transister but only takes up a small footprint. (and then we don't have to re-wire anything - and and wait - we have an extra!)
[01:23:14] <skunkworks> it seems to drive the opto22's just fine.
[01:23:51] <skunkworks> found a 24v 2.4 amp supply for the control side (estop loops, limits and such)
[01:24:31] <pfred1> I just used some MCT2E optos man they're nice
[01:24:35] <skunkworks> also a 1kva transformer for 110v things. (computer, solinoids, relays)
[01:25:35] <pfred1> I have a bunch of TLP521-2's on order I hope they're nice too
[01:26:22] <skunkworks> neat
[01:27:56] <pfred1> I need to decide what I want to use to build some bipolar chopper drives with now
[01:28:35] <pfred1> I know it won't be this! http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/1621753-mod-stepper-motor-drv-2-5a-bipo-spmd250stp.html
[01:30:49] <skunkworks> heh - I would keep an eye on ebay for some cheap oem650 drives or similar.
[01:31:15] <pfred1> yeah i can get something built for cheaper than they want for that chip
[01:31:40] <pfred1> heck I seen 3 axis boards going for cheaper!
[01:33:19] <pfred1> I sort of want to do all of my own electronics though some fabbed stuff is awfully tempting lately
[01:36:19] <skunkworks> http://cgi.ebay.com/Parker-Compumotor-OEM750-Stepper-Drive_W0QQitemZ110514163022QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item19bb284d4e
[01:36:25] <pfred1> my big electronics project today was retrofitting a pair of yamaha PC speakers to use a different power supply
[01:37:15] <pfred1> skunkworks $66 and its not done yet
[01:37:28] <pfred1> and its just one I need a matched pair
[01:37:52] <skunkworks> keep an eye on them - they go for less the 50 some times.
[01:38:21] <pfred1> I can get some pretty sweet 3 axis boards out of china for $70
[01:38:40] <skunkworks> these are 6a iirc
[01:41:08] <pfred1> lately I've been wondering has anyone ever tried driving a leadscrew on both sides?
[01:41:14] <Jymmm> They are also capable of 50,000 microstepping =)
[01:43:24] <pcw_home> which is stupid...
[01:44:15] <pcw_home> but sounds... big
[01:45:25] <pfred1> yeah you'd better have some kind of a step multiplier to take advantage of that feature
[01:46:17] <pfred1> it seems ther is no positional accuract with 1/4 stepping are there any other microstepping sequences that suffer similarly?
[01:53:08] <pfred1> the more i learn about steppers the more i see why people chuck them for servos
[01:53:36] <pcw_home> playing with our DSPIC based step drive it seem like 32 usteps/step was about as much as was practical
[01:53:46] <pcw_home> (seemed)
[01:54:40] <pfred1> unless a system is having resonance problems I don't see what use microstepping is
[01:55:38] <pcw_home> much quieter whan moving, less excitation of resonances are the main advantages
[01:56:39] <pfred1> another thing I have to explore is extremely slow speed operation I know single stepping will run on calander clocks but my half step drives like to go a little bit or they just bobble back and forth
[01:57:53] <pfred1> which is to say I wonder if every step sequence can run at extremely slow speeds
[01:58:16] <pcw_home> Even when usein low microstep ratios you can cut down on noise by having the step driver interpolate
[01:58:52] <pcw_home> so it doent step: boing rest boing rest boing rest
[02:00:08] <pcw_home> (thats the advantage of using a processor)
[02:01:14] <pfred1> I donno I just ran a full step motor here at about a step a second the noise wasn't exactly killing me
[02:03:06] <pcw_home> No but it might be bad fpr a delicate process (or a environment that needed quiet)
[02:03:15] <pcw_home> (for)
[02:04:04] <pfred1> if I don't have the motor right on a sounding board I can't even hear it
[02:04:55] <pfred1> and I'm not so sure microstepping sequences can even run this slowly
[02:06:29] <pcw_home> Each step of will cause a oscillatory motion (ringing) that propogates through the whole system
[02:06:36] <pcw_home> -of
[02:07:32] <pcw_home> depending on load we could resolve maybe 1/64 of a step
[02:07:42] <pfred1> I have a 115V AC stepper that i built a phase shifting capacitor for and I got to admit it is smooth
[02:08:26] <pcw_home> Well once we did it in software the ustep ratio is just a number, so we could directly compare
[02:08:26] <pfred1> I just didn't happen to have a 14 UF NP 200V cap laying around
[02:09:01] <pcw_home> Thats how step motors got started (I think)
[02:09:24] <pfred1> I was quite suprised when I plugged it in and it didn't blow up
[02:09:55] <pcw_home> Good old superior elect
[02:10:07] <pfred1> but I rigged up a bunch of caps in series to make the proper uF and if you hook them half in half out it becomes non-polar
[02:10:33] <pfred1> and their voltage capacity adds
[02:11:04] <pfred1> yeah its a slo-syn
[02:11:30] <pfred1> I guess if I hooked it to a frequency generator I could speed control it too
[02:12:28] <pfred1> I got two of those motors a single and a double stack NEMA 34s
[02:12:39] <pcw_home> I wouldn't think elecolytics in series (for NP) would add sonece the reverse biased one cant take much voltage
[02:12:40] <pcw_home> (Ive seen the done with protection diodes across the caps to prevent reverse bias)
[02:13:10] <pfred1> you just have all the +'s facing out from the middle it works
[02:14:15] <pfred1> because if it didn't they'd have blown sky high!
[02:14:38] <pcw_home> Big electrolytics do that pretty well...
[02:14:39] <pfred1> we're talking plugged into the wall over here
[02:14:55] <pfred1> nope these were dinky little caps no more than 50VDC rated
[02:15:17] <pfred1> but like I said their V rating is cumlative in series
[02:15:40] <pfred1> and i have a string of about 6 or 8 of them so it adds up quite nicely
[02:15:58] <pfred1> they share the V
[02:16:12] <pfred1> cap V rating has to do with surface area
[02:16:49] <pfred1> what i essentially did was make one big cap out of 8 little ones
[02:17:43] <pfred1> one big very special value non-polar capacitor
[02:17:44] <pcw_home> V rating has to do with insulation thickness... C rating has to do with thickness and area
[02:18:00] <pfred1> well they share the V
[02:18:08] <pcw_home> and dielectric constant...
[02:18:20] <pfred1> I hate to break it to you but I've done it
[02:18:42] <pfred1> some caps in that chain had V ratings as low as 25
[02:19:42] <pfred1> really what screws caps is internal heating
[02:20:43] <pcw_home> They do for more than 2 on AC, but since they will take only a little reverse voltage 2 DC capacitor back to back would have peak AC V rating ~equal to the DC ratiion of one capacitor
[02:22:04] <pfred1> I read about the technique on some page a guy who built a homemade generator wrote
[02:22:47] <pfred1> and he used comp filter caps in some aspect of it and explained the mirror connections
[02:24:16] <pfred1> I think he needed to do it for a pole phase shift
[02:24:47] <pfred1> he was turning standard induction motors into generators
[02:24:57] <pcw_home> Normally you cant get much AC voltage across electrolytics anyway due their ripple current limit
[02:26:20] <pfred1> well the technique works perfectly and I'll use it again if the need ever arises
[02:26:55] <pcw_home> Thats interesting, I guess if you spin an induction motor faster then the field rate it would be a generator
[02:27:19] <pcw_home> (than the)
[02:27:21] <pfred1> yup thats what he was doing hooking inductuin motors up to lawn mower engines
[02:27:42] <pfred1> even doing a bit of welding if memory serves me
[02:27:45] <mozmck2> I have a whole book or two on building generators out of 3phase induction motors.
[02:28:05] <pfred1> yeah he was just using plain old single phase bombs I believe
[02:28:54] <mozmck2> I think it's done more commonly in third world countries because it's much cheaper and can be more reliable than a normal generator (if I remember correctly)
[02:29:15] <pfred1> I think this guy was doing it just because he could
[02:30:25] <pfred1> get a junk lawnmower a junk squirrel cage motor and a box of dusty caps and have at it!
[02:30:48] <pcw_home> Dont quite see how the excitation would work (But I can imagine running a 3 phase motor on a VFD and driving the motor faster that the VFD rate)
[02:31:11] <pfred1> pcw_home that's where the back to back caps come in to make the ghost phase for you
[02:32:05] <pfred1> I donno I didn't pay all that much attention to it other than you could make NP caps out of polarized ones
[02:33:24] <pcw_home> Yep, you certainly can make a NP out of 2 DC caps, but I still dont believe the 2X voltage for 2 caps thing though...
[02:34:09] <pfred1> pcw_home then you tell me how i was able to get away with pumping 115VAC through 25VDC caps
[02:34:47] <pfred1> right out of a wall socket
[02:35:28] <pfred1> there has to be something going on there
[02:36:50] <pcw_home> did you measure the voltage across the caps? if you were running a motor you might have a lot less across the caps than you might think
[02:37:50] <pfred1> I think the cap chain was in series with one of the motor coils
[02:38:17] <pfred1> i may have been across it but I don't think it was
[02:38:44] <pcw_home> Series makes sense
[02:39:11] <pfred1> it was just in there to phase shif the one coil in relation to the other
[02:39:33] <pfred1> so it'd have to be in series with it then right?
[02:42:05] <pcw_home> Yep
[02:42:38] <pfred1> so you're thinking the motor coil was dropping a lot of the voltage then?
[02:43:10] <pcw_home> Thats my thought
[02:43:37] <pfred1> afaicr the spec called for a cap rated at 250VAC
[02:43:49] <pfred1> as a safety margin so that was my target as well
[02:44:11] <pfred1> I made sure my chain added up to more than that
[02:44:43] <pfred1> I think i used 2 50s and 6 25s
[02:46:56] <pfred1> it was one of my carzier make the stepper run projects
[02:47:17] <pfred1> crazier even
[02:47:53] <pfred1> but in the end I mean what as I really going to do with a 60 RPM or whatever it was motor?
[02:48:04] <pcw_home> That might just work if you account for the drop across the motor (and you dont expect it to run for a long time...)
[02:48:16] <pfred1> it ran fine
[02:48:20] <pcw_home> 72 rpm sticks in my mind
[02:48:43] <pfred1> yeah it was awfully dog slow if memory serves 72 could be it
[02:49:30] <pcw_home> well its a 50 pole sync motor so 3600/50
[02:49:43] <pfred1> but it was a torquerer something like 400 oz/in or something
[02:50:18] <pfred1> I had visions of maybe making some kind of a christmas decoration with it
[02:50:39] <pfred1> like a rotary table for a christmas tree or something
[02:51:35] <pfred1> because damned if I could think of anything else to do with it
[02:52:10] <pcw_home> they will work as slow somewhat poor step motors
[02:53:06] <pfred1> yeah it'd be a bit rough to over volt this jobbie
[02:53:30] <pfred1> being as its rated for 115V
[02:54:01] <pcw_home> Wel one of theose line operatied compumotor drives would drive it but never very fast
[02:55:06] <pcw_home> We have so strange step motors here for testing, include some 3 phase VR motors (0 cogging torque)
[02:55:16] <pcw_home> (some)
[02:56:17] <pfred1> I got a bunch of motors from a buddy that was cleaning out a store room where he worked they were going to toss the stuff so he knew i'd liek it all and gave it to me
[02:57:38] <pfred1> some other stuff he gave me is more useful
[03:00:03] <pfred1> but lately I've been thinking about building a machine differently than any examples I have seen so far
[03:00:35] <pfred1> using smaller motors which are usually really easy to get because most CNC hobbiests pass them up
[03:01:19] <pfred1> but what if you had 4 small motors on each of X and Y axis? one on each end of 2 lead screws
[03:02:01] <pfred1> then you could use say 50 oz/in motors and still have 200 oz/in per axis!
[03:02:31] <atmega> would 4 of them be cheap enough to be worthwhile
[03:03:02] <pfred1> 50 oz/in stepper motors are worthless
[03:03:11] <pfred1> you can get them for maybe $5 a pop
[03:03:40] <atmega> and 4 mounts and 4 couplers
[03:04:30] <pfred1> use standoffs and hose
[03:05:39] <pfred1> you still do need a thrust bearing on each lead i suppose
[03:06:56] <pfred1> but the plan also hinges on making cheap motor drivers because you'd get killed no matter what if you bought drivers
[03:08:02] <pcw_home> Ya drive them all in parallel
[03:08:05] <pfred1> but if yo uengineer the drivers properly I believe that small stepper motor drivers can be built cheaply and easily
[03:08:34] <pfred1> hmm you mean hook each axis all up to one driver?
[03:08:43] <pcw_home> Sure
[03:08:44] <pfred1> thats not a bad idea
[03:09:07] <pfred1> that does simplify it all doesn't it?
[03:09:12] <pcw_home> as long as the motor are identical
[03:09:20] <pcw_home> (motors)
[03:09:26] <pfred1> yeah thats the other rub you need all matched motors for each axis
[03:09:46] <pfred1> but when you look at surplus steppers the low power ones are like poison on the market
[03:09:58] <pcw_home> and match the polarities to rotation
[03:10:05] <pfred1> homebrewers aren't interested in them at all
[03:10:22] <pfred1> yeah on opposite lead ends you'd have to swap poles but thats no biggie
[03:10:38] <pcw_home> sure gang up up like train engines
[03:11:03] <pcw_home> ('em up)
[03:11:06] <pfred1> you can get 50 oz/in motors by the boxload
[03:11:33] <pfred1> because they're not strong enough to drive a 3 motor 3 axis machine
[03:12:14] <pfred1> but i was thinking that 4 of them on an axis would rock
[03:12:34] <pcw_home> I think this has been discussed before (and the need for precise alignment - power them up before tightening couplings)
[03:12:44] <pfred1> really the idea came to me when i was thinking how I'd bearing support the other end of a lead screw
[03:13:06] <pcw_home> That works for 2
[03:13:40] <pfred1> yeah I was leaning towards twin leads and twin motors
[03:13:56] <pfred1> then i just took it a step further I was like why not 4 motors?
[03:14:00] <pcw_home> Worth trying
[03:14:30] <pfred1> I mean i know why most psople don't do it because yo uget killed buying drivers
[03:14:51] <pfred1> but like you said just gang them all up on single drivers
[03:19:30] <pfred1> I'm wondering if current limiting would still work right though?
[03:20:52] <pcw_home> well if paralleled you would have 1/2 the inductance so your current limeit would need to be fast enough for that
[03:21:36] <pcw_home> (and you would need twice the current)
[03:22:14] <pfred1> I can see putting all the motors on single drivers might be tricky
[03:22:42] <pcw_home> Should just look like a 2X current motor
[03:22:50] <pfred1> but then again maybe it doesn't work because of just mechanically coupling the motors on each end of lead screws too
[03:24:39] <pfred1> I think I'm trying to invent the push me pull me CNC machine over here :)
[03:25:36] <pfred1> http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2009-09-11-push_me_pull_you.jpg
[03:26:20] <pcw_home> Like I said to get 2X torque, alignment would be critical but I think it would work
[03:26:20] <morfic> saw two dogs like that the other day
[03:26:21] <pcw_home> (that does look like our government though maybe the other ends...)
[03:28:28] <pcw_home> On that note 'gnite all
[03:28:33] <pfred1> nite
[03:29:51] <pfred1> pic of my new CNC machine: http://tinyurl.com/yza5cm3
[03:31:37] <morfic> http://willepadnos.net/jmkasunich/clouds-2632.jpg i'm a sucker for cloud shots
[03:32:29] <pfred1> morfic go here: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=mallory+square+key+west&fb=1&gl=us&hq=mallory+square&hnear=key+west&cid=0,0,2006401038112113795&ei=Owi4S9X6OIGC8gaSg-XfBw&sa=X&oi=local_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CAkQnwIwAA
[03:33:09] <pfred1> morfic they have a celebration every sunset its fun
[03:37:07] <pfred1> there were only 32 bars on that island the last time I was there I wonder how many there are there now?
[03:49:16] <atmega> anyone have a 'cheap' source for 1/4<>1/2 couplings?
[03:49:55] <pfred1> atmega Home Depot?
[03:50:38] <atmega> for some DIY type?
[03:56:39] <pfred1> atmega duck tape!
[03:57:29] <pfred1> get the 200 MPH variety so you don't lose connection at high rats of speed
[03:57:35] <pfred1> rates even
[04:03:24] <hydraglyph> I'm going to the Keys in a couple weeks
[04:03:53] <pfred1> other than Bogie's boat little compells me to stop at any other key than the westerly one
[04:04:38] <hydraglyph> I have family that sticks around the Keys for the fishing, and I have an itch to ride down there on one of my bikes
[04:05:09] <pfred1> that brisge is crazy but when I go again I'm flying
[04:05:50] <hydraglyph> Yeah, I'm flying down there this time, hope to get my machines in order and rebuild a 1982 Honda CB900 Custom for a trip down this summer
[04:05:50] <pfred1> everyone should make the drive once though I suppose
[04:06:49] <pfred1> hydraglyph what are you an escepee from a mad max movie that never got released?
[04:07:28] <pfred1> I can hardly believe any 1982 Hondas even still run
[04:09:29] <hydraglyph> lol
[04:09:45] <hydraglyph> A local old bike buyer told me the same thing
[04:09:52] <pfred1> I thought all them old rice burners self destructed at 10K miles
[04:10:09] <hydraglyph> Funny thing is, when I rebuilt the carbs on that bike, it was the first time I've ever personally seen a carburetor.
[04:10:30] <pfred1> you got a synchronizer?
[04:11:46] <hydraglyph> Not at the time. I synched them "close enough", not even a bench sync with a feeler wire. Ran way better, but either rich or lean, been a minute. Previous owner RTV'd the valve covers, I took them off and found blue camshaft lobes. Parked it for a rebuild for the past year after that.
[04:12:09] <hydraglyph> Now I have a steel rod sync set
[04:12:38] <hydraglyph> And I picked up the clear spark plug, for adjusting the mixture near perfect
[04:12:39] <pfred1> hmm usually they're barometers
[04:12:54] <SWPadnos> make sure to stop at Pennecamp and do some snorkeling
[04:13:19] <SWPadnos> or is that Pernnekamp
[04:13:20] <SWPadnos> hmm
[04:13:25] <pfred1> I used to live by a beautiful bach on the east coast
[04:13:25] <hydraglyph> I'm probably going to snorkle around Loo Key
[04:13:31] <pfred1> beach even
[04:13:51] <pfred1> but it got wiped out by a hurricane
[04:14:33] <SWPadnos> the reef off key largo is one of the best snorkeling spots in the world
[04:14:43] <SWPadnos> ok, it is Pennekamp
[04:14:43] <hydraglyph> Do either of you know much about early(er) 16" South Bend lathes? Bought one before I knew how old it was...
[04:15:08] <pfred1> SWPadnos this beach was called the bathtub because it had 6 concentric coral reefs off it
[04:15:14] <SWPadnos> cool
[04:15:18] <pfred1> yes it was
[04:15:40] <pfred1> right across from Grand bahama
[04:16:17] <pfred1> in Stewart FL
[04:16:41] <pfred1> well maybe it was Ft Pierce i never could figure out one from the other
[04:18:03] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:18:16] <pfred1> well I lived in Walton Beach
[04:18:33] <pfred1> but had a Stewart mailing address
[04:20:38] <pfred1> I felt like jaquesse coustau or something when I went snorkeling at that beach with all of the schools of tropical fish there
[04:20:58] <pfred1> they'd make you sort of dizzy when you swam in them
[04:21:28] <pfred1> and sometimes you'd end up with one in your trunks!
[04:23:16] <pfred1> hydraglyph a word to the wise don't wear a mask with a chrome ring on it
[04:23:24] <SWPadnos> I had an odd experience with a tiny fish once
[04:23:37] <pfred1> chrome is too much like a fishing lure
[04:24:00] <pfred1> I have seen stuff that'd hit on people sized bait!
[04:24:27] <SWPadnos> I was swimming/snorkeling (just on the surface) at the beach at Half Moon Cay (a cruise line owned island, actually called Little San Salvador, in the Bahamas)
[04:24:55] <SWPadnos> we had swum about halfway to the ship when a police boat told us to go back to the beach (I guess we were outside the "safe" area)
[04:25:10] <pfred1> pfft like areas are safe
[04:25:26] <SWPadnos> so I'm swimming along, and this tiny little fish - maybe 1/2 - 1 inch long, decided it wanted to swim with me
[04:25:44] <SWPadnos> so it kept about 2 inches in front of my face mask the entire way back
[04:26:26] <pfred1> my biggest fear swimming down there is barracuda
[04:26:45] <pfred1> if they decide to go for you I don't think there is anything you can do
[04:26:47] <SWPadnos> I've seen a few, they don't seem all that aggressive
[04:26:52] <hydraglyph> pfred1: I'm safe on that point :P
[04:26:58] <SWPadnos> no, I'm like a fish out of water, when I'm in the water :)
[04:27:09] <morfic> * morfic has no clue about snorkeling, glad to not drown doing normal stuff is more my thing
[04:27:21] <VernonM> I'm more like a rock in the water
[04:27:35] <pfred1> SWPadnos I've seen shark getting chased by barracuda and even sharks are scared!
[04:27:42] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:27:52] <pfred1> yeah it is pretty funny to see a scared shark
[04:28:30] <pfred1> barracuda swim like 50 knots + and have teeth almost 2 inches long sometimes
[04:28:56] <morfic> so has any of you killed their machine with lucid yet?
[04:29:12] <SWPadnos> well, like with most animals (and humans), just don't piss them off and you should be fine
[04:29:25] <morfic> buddy is a very unhappy camper with his distupgrade right now (desktop, not emc)
[04:29:37] <pfred1> SWPadnos but what if they're just hungry?
[04:29:41] <morfic> pfred1: 50 knots? fuck
[04:29:53] <morfic> oh crap, can i say the eff word in here?
[04:29:54] <SWPadnos> then it might piss them off if food comes too close ;)
[04:30:05] <pfred1> morfic barracude look like silver pipes hanging in the water then they take off and its liek a streak
[04:30:35] <morfic> yeah, as always, beware the streakers
[04:30:35] <SWPadnos> well, you can, but this isn't a channel where we show off by cussing a lot
[04:30:41] <pfred1> its one of the most amazing wild things I've ever seen
[04:30:59] <pfred1> they're like little living torpedos
[04:31:07] <morfic> SWPadnos: i don't tend to show off with it, just making sure i don't get pulled to the side for a talk
[04:31:15] <SWPadnos> nah
[04:31:26] <SWPadnos> allowed but not all that common I guess :)
[04:31:40] <pfred1> but its not uncommon to see barracuda grow to about 3 feet long either
[04:31:45] <SWPadnos> (I may be one of the worse offenders actually - I rarely self-censor :) )
[04:31:53] <morfic> just keep pfred1 from telling freaky animal stories i guess :P
[04:32:02] <SWPadnos> no shit
[04:32:05] <SWPadnos> see!
[04:32:08] <morfic> hehe
[04:32:34] <pfred1> morfic the best was when a buddy of mine I was diving wiht sent down to take a leak and i waso n the surface I mean i didn't want to watch you know?
[04:32:50] <morfic> there was something i wanted to pester you about SWPadnos, now where you are here, i don't recall, not fair
[04:32:56] <pfred1> morfic next thing I know he's shooting up out of the water and pointing down so I go under the surface ot take a look
[04:33:03] <SWPadnos> that's OK, because I'm headed to bed
[04:33:09] <pfred1> morfic and there's this huge manta ray flying away
[04:33:11] <SWPadnos> soon after I leave, you'll remember
[04:33:15] <SWPadnos> so write it down this time
[04:33:19] <morfic> SWPadnos: means i will remember any moment then :P
[04:33:23] <SWPadnos> yep
[04:33:24] <pfred1> morfic I was looking down its throat and out its gills!
[04:33:39] <SWPadnos> and incidentally, I have lucid on a laptop, but not an EMC machine
[04:33:50] <SWPadnos> it seems to be working fine
[04:33:51] <pfred1> morfic when he want down to take a leak he landed right on its back they bury themselves in the sand on the bottom
[04:34:01] <morfic> SWPadnos: fresh install or distupgrade?
[04:34:15] <pfred1> morfic I swear to god just the stinger on this thing must have been 3 feet long!
[04:34:17] <SWPadnos> fresh install
[04:34:30] <morfic> SWPadnos: those tend to be flawless
[04:34:51] <SWPadnos> however, I couldn't install if I upgraded the installer first. I had to install (with beta 1), then upgrade after installation
[04:37:03] <pfred1> I finally couldn't take it anymore so I submitted a bug report about konquerer on this system but its not EMC2 just plain old Ubuntu 9.10
[04:40:56] <Guest576> hello
[04:41:08] <pfred1> hi
[04:41:31] <Guest576> looking into using emc2 on my CNC lathe and mill
[04:41:46] <Guest576> using mach now and not happy at all
[04:42:04] <Guest576> more problems and bugs then I can count
[04:42:17] <Guest576> they fix one and make 2
[04:42:19] <Guest576> lol
[04:42:45] <pfred1> Guest576 you don't know about the FOSS manifesto do you?
[04:42:46] <Guest576> not always but it seems that way at times
[04:42:54] <Guest576> ?
[04:43:01] <Guest576> what is that?
[04:43:18] <SWPadnos> uh-oh
[04:43:25] <pfred1> Guest576 thre is no guarantee that EMC2 os completely without bugs :)
[04:44:08] <pfred1> Guest576 but I'd lay good odds they're probably different bugs than whatever if bugging you now!
[04:44:45] <Guest576> I know there is no garantee of no bugs
[04:45:19] <Guest576> what is FOSS manifesto?
[04:45:36] <pfred1> release early and release often
[04:46:07] <SWPadnos> (FOSS = Free Open Source Software, in case you don't know)
[04:46:14] <Guest576> I am trying to get mach to run a lathe, the mill is working OK not great but OK
[04:46:21] <Guest576> the lathe is hell
[04:47:00] <Guest576> mach does not update or do much work on lthe section as the mill is used far more
[04:47:09] <pfred1> there's a couple of lathe guys here that seem pretty happy with EMC2 on their machines
[04:47:17] <SWPadnos> Guest576, download the EMC2 CD, get updates (make sure the PC is connected to the internet when you install), and play around with it
[04:47:51] <pfred1> SWPadnos shouldn't they maybe read the documentation a little first?
[04:47:53] <SWPadnos> you don't have to install to mess with it, there are fully functional simulated machines, and you can run from the CD without installing to the hard disk
[04:47:59] <Guest576> I have downloaded, even installed it on a computer, just not one conected to any machines yet
[04:48:05] <SWPadnos> ah, great
[04:48:17] <Guest576> what with the updates?
[04:48:21] <SWPadnos> lots of documentation available to you then, including all the sample configurations
[04:48:21] <pfred1> Guest576 its pretty slick huh?
[04:48:44] <SWPadnos> we don't update the CD every time there's a release - that's not the preferred way of keeping the system up to date
[04:48:45] <Guest576> I did not have the computer conected to the net when doing the install
[04:48:56] <SWPadnos> so the CD doesn't always have the latest version on it
[04:49:04] <pfred1> Guest576 yeah well you can plug it in anytime
[04:49:29] <Guest576> sure
[04:49:31] <SWPadnos> that should be OK
[04:49:38] <pfred1> Guest576 updating is painless
[04:49:52] <Guest576> will have to look for the update button
[04:50:05] <pfred1> oh once you're connected it'll come looking for you
[04:50:14] <Guest576> lol
[04:50:16] <Guest576> cool
[04:50:55] <Guest576> I run windows computers, not by choise
[04:51:01] <pfred1> first an icon will start flashing in the upper right hand corner then the update manager will pop up
[04:51:28] <Guest576> have played around some with linux, redhat mostly doing server setups
[04:51:29] <SWPadnos> or, to do it on your schedule: System -> Administration -> Synaptic Package manager
[04:51:53] <SWPadnos> click "reload" to get the latest package listings, and then "mark all upgrades"
[04:52:01] <morfic> SWPadnos: did you just say i can "update" w/o installing to disk? (it's how it sounded up there)
[04:52:02] <Guest576> cool
[04:52:05] <Guest576> thanks
[04:52:08] <SWPadnos> it updates everything on the system
[04:52:17] <pfred1> Guest576 yeah have you opened up synaptic package manager yet?
[04:52:30] <Guest576> when doing redhat server work it was all comand line
[04:52:39] <SWPadnos> morfic, no, you can try out the LiveCD without installing, or you can upgrade an installed system
[04:52:43] <pfred1> Guest576 we got that too but the gui is more fun
[04:52:59] <SWPadnos> but since you can't write to the CD, you can't upgrade a liveCD system
[04:53:10] <morfic> i think i need to get the CD either way, see what those simulated CDs are like,
[04:53:14] <pfred1> SWPadnos not even to a RAMdisk?
[04:53:26] <SWPadnos> from the command line, it's "sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get upgrade"
[04:53:26] <Guest576> so have not played much with the GUI, but did do a GUI install just to play around and see what it looked like
[04:53:27] <morfic> SWPadnos: unless you overlay a dir with a dir on a disk
[04:53:45] <morfic> then you don't install to disk, however involve a disk and can write to it
[04:53:56] <SWPadnos> sure, if you want to do funny installs you can do it, or just install to a USB stick
[04:54:23] <SWPadnos> if you're going to mess with disk contents, you may as well install
[04:54:37] <pfred1> SWPadnos all of my installs are funny and I don't mean the ha ha kind of funny either!
[04:54:48] <morfic> got no free partition on here, but usb stick sounds good
[04:54:49] <SWPadnos> you can't install EMC2 or its updates onto a Windows filesystem, so you'd have to resize partitions
[04:55:00] <SWPadnos> unless you have some space on a Linux disk
[04:55:21] <pfred1> morfic go rummage through your neighbors trash for a cast of HDD will ya?
[04:55:27] <SWPadnos> and even then, there's no way to get the CD to know that there's a newer version of things (like the kernel, if that's also updated) on the disk
[04:55:29] <morfic> SWPadnos: i have linux on laptop, just not ubuntu
[04:56:03] <morfic> SWPadnos: i didn't quite think of system upgrades, just demo latest and greatest emc2 really
[04:56:05] <SWPadnos> then you can install EMC2, if you feel like compiling a realtime kernel and EMC2 itself :)
[04:56:45] <SWPadnos> if you just want to play with EMC2, but not run a machine, you can download the sim .deb, or download the source and build the simulator version
[04:56:48] <pfred1> SWPadnos anymore i don't evne like trying to compile vanilla kernels its just too complicated
[04:56:52] <SWPadnos> that doesn't use a realtime kernel
[04:57:07] <morfic> simulator right now would be all i need
[04:57:27] <SWPadnos> the easiest thing to do is to grab a known working config (which there is on a liveCD boot, in /boot/config.gz I believe)
[04:57:48] <SWPadnos> then it's a simple matter of make bzImage modules modules_install
[04:57:53] <morfic> boss made a comment that sounded like he may try emc2 before making a decision, he was talking about rewiring usable for windows software if we don't like emc2...
[04:57:53] <SWPadnos> and maybe even make install
[04:58:05] <pfred1> make oldconfig?
[04:58:09] <SWPadnos> sure
[04:58:13] <SWPadnos> you can do that too :)
[04:58:18] <SWPadnos> need to even
[04:58:33] <Guest576> I have a few things that worry me as I am running Mach now and all Gcode is for mach, would I have to change much of the Gcaode to run in EMC?
[04:58:43] <morfic> SWPadnos: make && make modules_install (bzImage and modules are now done for you, using the full line of course still works too)
[04:58:48] <SWPadnos> gunzip config.gz && cp config .config && make oldconfig && make bzImage modules modules_install install
[04:59:28] <SWPadnos> I don't recall whether you have to make an initrd yourself or if make install does it for you
[04:59:59] <morfic> don't need a initrd if you compile in what you need to boot the machine
[05:00:05] <SWPadnos> this is of course the wrong way to do it on a system with package management - you should build a .deb (or rpm, or yum) and then install it
[05:00:06] <Guest576> also I do tons of subs and variables in my code, would EMC be able to run them just like mach?
[05:00:22] <morfic> * morfic is not much a fan for initrd/initramfs unless you use lvm and need on
[05:00:42] <SWPadnos> that's true, but in that case you have to go select everything
[05:01:02] <SWPadnos> Guest576, probably not just like Mach, but there are subroutines and variables in EMC2
[05:01:03] <pfred1> I donno initrd is nice
[05:01:19] <morfic> SWPadnos: why go select everything?
[05:01:41] <SWPadnos> there is no VB equivalent though, so if you use special functions or anything like that, you'll have to do some thinking
[05:02:15] <SWPadnos> morfic, I was suggesting that you use an existing config, like the one we provide or the one from a stock Ubuntu, to make kernel building easier
[05:02:22] <SWPadnos> well, to get a working kernel anyway
[05:02:36] <SWPadnos> but doing that means that most things will be built as modules
[05:02:45] <Guest576> also if I run EMC would I be able to gen Gcode with bobcad and mastercam?
[05:02:55] <SWPadnos> so it's simple to do, but not as optimized
[05:02:58] <pfred1> now a days sure you can't get by without an initrd
[05:03:23] <pfred1> Guest576 I don
[05:03:24] <SWPadnos> Guest576, probably, but you may need to (a) select a different post and/or (b) make some modifications to the post
[05:03:28] <pfred1> Guest576 I don't see why not
[05:03:46] <SWPadnos> there are some G-codes in Mach that don't exist in EMC2, and vise versa
[05:04:37] <Guest576> do you know any examples?
[05:04:44] <morfic> SWPadnos: right, i was refering to filesystem and chipset, the things needed to boot, once you can mount, the rest can be modules on disk, initrd are useful for dynamic kernels like for ubuntu when you don't know beforehand what hardware it gets booted on and everything has to be a module
[05:04:45] <pfred1> SWPadnos are there any plans of expanding EMC2's Gcodes?
[05:04:50] <SWPadnos> G11 doesn't exist in EMC2
[05:04:54] <SWPadnos> or is that G12?
[05:05:05] <Guest576> also will EMC do condisional branch and jumps in Gcode?
[05:05:12] <SWPadnos> pfred1, not to be compatible with Mach, but possibly to add functionality
[05:05:33] <SWPadnos> (like G5.x - the experimental, not quite working-yet NURBS codes)
[05:05:40] <SWPadnos> Guest576, sure
[05:05:45] <pfred1> SWPadnos I can't see how compatibility is a bad thing
[05:05:50] <SWPadnos> it's now that I will recommend that you start reading the manual ;)
[05:06:05] <SWPadnos> it's bad if we're only doing it to be compatible
[05:06:19] <pfred1> SWPadnos how?
[05:06:20] <morfic> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html/gcode.html i see G76, no G71/G72 ?
[05:06:21] <SWPadnos> we have a threading code, they have a threading code. if they're not the same code, they're not the same
[05:06:41] <SWPadnos> if we change our codes so they are the same, should we replicate any "strange" behavior as well?
[05:07:03] <pfred1> SWPadnos I don't see how one is mutually exclusive of the other
[05:07:17] <Guest576> threading has been my hell so far with mach
[05:07:26] <SWPadnos> what if we have extra functionality, but it uses a letter that Mach uses for something else?
[05:07:45] <SWPadnos> and what about compatibility with existing EMC G-code
[05:07:54] <Guest576> I heard that threading in EMC is extramly differant then Mach
[05:08:32] <SWPadnos> the bottom line is that we can't be compatible with everyrhing, because there are conflicting codes on different controls (Fanuc, Haas, Mach, whatever)
[05:08:41] <Guest576> I am not looking for 100% compadabilaty with mach
[05:08:42] <SWPadnos> Guest576, yeah. it actually works in EMC2 ;)
[05:09:03] <pfred1> SWPadnos well I think it'd be nice of a mode could be selected
[05:09:11] <Guest576> just did not want to have to totaly rewrite the Gcode
[05:09:16] <pfred1> or maybe a post processor or something
[05:09:23] <SWPadnos> there are a couple of differences that I can think of, but I'm not much of a G-code programmer
[05:09:52] <pfred1> you know like a G-Code filter of sorts
[05:09:57] <morfic> SWPadnos: the link to gcodes i commented on, is that one really listing everything?
[05:10:03] <SWPadnos> one is that in EMC2, the pitch is along the direction of motion, not necessarily parallel to the Z axis
[05:10:23] <SWPadnos> (you can move all the axes in a spindle-synchronized move, which I think may be something Mach can't do)
[05:10:47] <morfic> if all machines would be compatible, we would have a golden post making code running on every machine
[05:10:55] <Guest576> I do tons of hand coding and only use bobcad and mastercam for gen sections of complex 3D code
[05:10:55] <SWPadnos> morfic, I don't know if that's up to date
[05:11:20] <SWPadnos> or complete. it was made as a quick reference that we printed on small cards and handed out at a CNC workshop a few years ago
[05:11:48] <pfred1> Guest576 the truth is if you want naything bad enough with EMC2 there is no one or nothing stopping you from doing whatever really
[05:11:51] <SWPadnos> pfred1, if you'd like to make such a filter, we'll happily take a look at including it with EMC2 :)
[05:11:52] <morfic> SWPadnos: i hope not, lathe w/o G71/G72 makes for stringy code, good to hear, best way would be to run simulator and see what it lets me use?
[05:12:03] <SWPadnos> what are G71/G72?
[05:12:26] <morfic> SWPadnos: "roughing" cycles for OD and Face
[05:12:48] <SWPadnos> with a contour?
[05:12:53] <morfic> yes
[05:13:04] <SWPadnos> no, I don't believe EMC2 has that
[05:13:12] <morfic> can't think of the proper term, just the trivial term used in shops
[05:13:30] <morfic> never used a machine that didn't have em
[05:13:48] <SWPadnos> I think there was a program that would take a profile and generate roughing code from it, but I don't know for sure
[05:13:49] <morfic> like walking up to a mill that doesn't know G81/G83
[05:15:08] <morfic> SWPadnos: we could post with canned cycles turned off, problem is if i post it with one Depth of Cut, it will be not enough for one machine and too much for another, we have a machine where the guy roughed with .5" DoC in cobalt, while others would stall out at .15" :)
[05:15:23] <SWPadnos> heh
[05:15:27] <Guest576> so how does the pitch along the direction of motion change anything? what differance would that make?
[05:15:32] <SWPadnos> if only we could use STEP :)
[05:15:55] <morfic> with G71, he changes the U.25 to U.5, while on the gutless machine we change it to U.15
[05:16:07] <SWPadnos> Guest576, if you're doing a tapered thread, like NPT, you have to use a larger K value to get the correct thread
[05:16:12] <morfic> Guest576: sounded like he pointed out it is not limited to Z alone
[05:18:11] <SWPadnos> morfic, what is U in this case (and on what control)?
[05:19:28] <SWPadnos> note that you could use the math functions in EMC2 to calculate the correct K value
[05:19:48] <elmo40> Guest576: how do you like BobCAD? I have heard many like it. less expensive then MasterCAM but just as useful.
[05:20:33] <Guest576> can someone give a example of a condesional branch done inside the Gcode for EMC?
[05:21:10] <SWPadnos> oh hmm. those probably don't exist in the way you'd expect
[05:21:22] <Jymmm> yo
[05:21:33] <morfic> SWPadnos: depth of cut, on Fanuc (uses 2 G71 lines to setup the canned cycle, in first G71 line U is Depth of Cut, in second G71 line U is stock to leave)
[05:22:02] <morfic> anyone in here ever touch Esprit (cam software)
[05:22:02] <SWPadnos> you can basically skip blocks if a condition is true or false, but I don't think you can just say "if A then skip to N500"
[05:22:10] <Guest576> it has its place, but is limited in what it can do, I do like it for somethings as I can quickly setup some cuts with it
[05:22:37] <SWPadnos> morfic, that's funny, because apparently on a Haas, U is the amount of material to leave (in one direction), and D is the depth of cut :)
[05:22:51] <SWPadnos> (according to this: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?action=browse&diff=1&id=HaasRoughingFinishing )
[05:22:54] <morfic> SWPadnos: If/Then, else ? (conditional jumps_
[05:23:02] <elmo40> SWPadnos: why cant you do 'if A then skip to N303' ? you can with Fanuc controllers.
[05:23:02] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: Hey, aren't you suppose to be floating in an ocean somewhere?
[05:23:12] <SWPadnos> EMC2 is not a Fanuc
[05:23:23] <SWPadnos> Jymmm, end of the month :)
[05:23:24] <elmo40> cant you run a 'C' toolpath?
[05:23:35] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: Ah, ok.
[05:23:39] <SWPadnos> no idea - what is a C toolpath?
[05:23:52] <elmo40> C++, C, language.
[05:23:56] <SWPadnos> no
[05:24:01] <elmo40> could make some programmers lives easier ;)
[05:24:07] <SWPadnos> well, not from G-code at least
[05:24:24] <SWPadnos> you can write a C program to generate G-code if you like
[05:24:35] <Jymmm> heh
[05:24:49] <Guest576> I was thinking on doing that
[05:24:58] <morfic> SWPadnos: i would not care if emc2 was like fanuc or not, just that it has *a* G71, boss likes idea to keep post as is, while i think "fix post, it's not so hot anyway"
[05:25:27] <Guest576> instead of doing inside the gcode
[05:25:29] <SWPadnos> I think you're out of luck on that one, unless you want to hire someone to write it ;)
[05:26:02] <elmo40> morfic: as SWPadnos said, can write something to generate (a.k.a. simulate) any G-code you want with typical g-code lines.
[05:26:16] <morfic> SWPadnos: i would like a G71 that does undercutting, which would be an improvement over our current G71, how much would that cost?
[05:26:17] <SWPadnos> Guest576, there's a lot you can do, and I'm sure there are things you can't do the way you're used to - you just have to mess with it to find out
[05:26:33] <SWPadnos> morfic, no idea
[05:26:38] <SWPadnos> it's bedtime, remember :)
[05:26:41] <elmo40> like peck drilling, all it is is z+- with g1 and g0
[05:26:55] <morfic> SWPadnos: i know, i am totally taking advantage of Guest576 keeping you here :P
[05:27:00] <SWPadnos> heh
[05:27:01] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: G'night
[05:27:03] <SWPadnos> night!
[05:27:35] <Guest576> one last thing
[05:28:05] <Guest576> does K = Z Start for EMC?
[05:28:30] <morfic> elmo40: G71 is a little more than that, point is more telling boss emc2 is lacking something he considers basic, then again, he wants programs optimized for unattended operation, so it's not like there is anyone changing DOC like that anyway
[05:28:31] <Guest576> not sure how K would need to change for threading
[05:29:12] <SWPadnos> K is the distance to move per spindle revolution, or 1/pitch
[05:29:14] <SWPadnos> night!
[05:29:24] <Guest576> thanks
[05:29:26] <Guest576> night
[05:29:26] <morfic> 'night SWPadnos
[05:30:21] <elmo40> morfic: never used G71
[05:30:24] <elmo40> that for lathe?
[05:31:45] <morfic> yes
[05:31:53] <elmo40> thats why :P
[05:31:56] <elmo40> i am a mill guy
[05:32:42] <elmo40> but there are 'pocket' cycles for milling
[05:32:58] <elmo40> use them for roughing simple areas.
[05:33:03] <morfic> elmo40: apparently i am more comfortable on mills, but do run lathes a great deal at this place
[05:33:11] <elmo40> saves code. but with machine memory now who cares about saving code.
[05:33:32] <morfic> our Fanuc has crap on that, and i long forgot what the Haas codes were for pocket cycles
[05:37:53] <morfic> we use G71/G72 for quick and easy stock removal
[05:39:57] <morfic> i wish i knew how easy it was to do the C program SWPadnos mentioned, if it's more like building a module following a common format, who knows, i might be able to come up with one to do simple cycles easy, to do any shape might be trickier
[05:41:18] <pfred1> can't you make the C program output to a file and have that file be your gcode file
[05:42:19] <morfic> pfred1: preparse the code and have it substitute the code block? i suppose that would work....for me, harder to sell
[05:42:30] <morfic> possible it's what he meant too
[05:45:48] <morfic> pfred1: or have a L4567R00_DOC100.MAC and a L4567R00_DOC150.MAC and a L4567R00_DOC200.MAC for U.100, U.150, U.200 Depth of cut values, since we can post straight code if we want to, just less convenient when say stock diameter changes by 1" cause it's a rush order and only a larger centrifugal was available in a hurry
[05:46:52] <morfic> and once this machines runs automation, such a file would work for the "machine manager" setting up the machine i think. i do not think that the people we have right now could use that w/o me doing it for them (running the code through the C program)
[05:48:37] <morfic> pfred1: honestly, it not that big of a deal for me, but boss might think differently about missing G71/G72
[05:50:01] <morfic> just good to know a few "there is always this option"
[06:20:56] <fluorine> hmm, what criteria would one use in monitoring the integrity of an AC power source?
[10:08:03] <MrSunshine_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9Jkk-koLIA&NR=1 those are cool =)
[10:08:27] <MrSunshine_> can emc handle one of those? :P
[11:33:51] <sealive> hi
[11:35:21] <sealive> on a stepperMotor if i lower the Phase current by 10percent how mutch Torch will i lose?
[11:35:43] <sealive> 2A->1,8
[11:36:15] <sealive> 1,3Nm->?
[11:41:11] <JT-Dev> I think there is a spreadsheet on the wiki site that might answer that
[11:44:58] <JT-Dev> stepper torque is such a funny number
[11:48:41] <sealive> i lost the driver at the max speed search
[11:48:59] <sealive> ok i got over 1500mm
[11:49:23] <sealive> it wars way to mutch to pull that on all 3 axis at the same time
[11:50:05] <sealive> a10th shoud do the work burt for 1,9Eur that had to be made
[11:50:21] <sealive> L298 broken
[11:50:38] <sealive> just in case i will also remove the L297
[13:53:47] <elmo40> he lostt a driver at max speed? did it skip or something? or was the power supply too weak ;)
[13:54:01] <elmo40> couldnt drive all 3 axis at the same time at full load.
[13:55:01] <SWPadnos> overvoltage from back EMF due to all the motors stopping at once, maybe
[13:56:18] <elmo40> possibly.
[13:56:23] <MrSunshine_> no freewheeling diodes? :)
[13:56:31] <SWPadnos> no idea
[13:58:08] <MrSunshine_> but couldnt that be a cause in that case? :)
[13:58:21] <SWPadnos> could be
[13:58:46] <SWPadnos> I just thought of overvoltage because it's my understanding that the L297/L298 chips are very susceptible to it
[13:59:06] <SWPadnos> and of course high speed means more energy to dump when you stop, so ...
[16:14:49] <Martinp23> [Global Notice] We're pleased to announce the launch of the Groups Advisory Board, which will give approved groups a greater say in the direction that freenode and certain other PDPC projects take in the future. Read all about it at http://bit.ly/ceCbIA and encourage your group contact(s) to join! Thanks for using freenode and have a great day!
[17:36:17] <frallzor> honk honk
[17:48:54] <Jymmm> Happy Easter!!!
[17:49:41] <frallzor> Merry Easter and a happy new year
[17:49:51] <Jymmm> lol
[17:50:38] <frallzor> * frallzor sighs
[17:50:48] <frallzor> the worst part left, cabling =(
[17:50:59] <frallzor> other than that the mill is 100% mechanically done
[17:51:01] <Jymmm> What? Easter Bunny didn't bring you a basket of goodies?
[17:51:16] <frallzor> he could have brought me an electrician, but noooo
[17:51:31] <frallzor> f*cking bunny =(
[17:51:35] <Jymmm> A Bunnytrician?
[17:52:21] <Jymmm> Why do you need an electrician?
[17:52:36] <frallzor> so he can wire the mill for me
[17:52:41] <frallzor> I hate wiring
[17:53:08] <Jymmm> Oh, that's easy to do. Just need the right tools
[17:53:45] <frallzor> well Its easy, but I have to drag it trough power chains and shit
[17:53:48] <MrSunshine_> your tounge to check if theres voltage and a screw driver (also use teeth to cut the protective stuff of tha cables)
[17:53:54] <frallzor> and then solder shit =(
[17:54:01] <Jymmm> Solder?
[17:54:02] <frallzor> well all thats is done
[17:54:07] <frallzor> cable > stepper
[17:54:24] <Jymmm> frallzor: Hint... butt connectors =)
[17:54:32] <frallzor> and cover it nicely with shrinktubing
[17:54:34] <Jymmm> and shrink tubing =)
[17:54:40] <frallzor> I win!
[17:54:49] <Jymmm> GIT ER DONE!
[17:55:00] <MattyMatt> http://imagebin.org/91601
[17:55:14] <frallzor> I have 4 pairs of butt connectors, I need 16 =P
[17:55:33] <Jymmm> Well, like I said, you need the right tools.
[17:55:55] <Jymmm> Could also use connectors (like molex)
[17:55:56] <frallzor> but thats not the part I hate, its the wiring itself
[17:56:05] <MattyMatt> and the right wire. my motors are on CAT5 atm :)
[17:56:21] <MattyMatt> doubled up, but still
[17:56:32] <Jymmm> Ah, it's something that comes naturally to me.
[17:56:50] <Jymmm> I have a zillion types of crimpers.
[17:57:02] <frallzor> im using some super heavy duty german stuff it seems =P
[17:57:19] <Jymmm> coax, faston, various sized pin crimpers, etc
[17:58:11] <Jymmm> FWIW... the faston crimpers that make it "flat" really suck.
[17:59:46] <Jymmm> The blue ones pictured here http://www.royalwholesale.com/T&Bpic1.jpg
[18:00:14] <frallzor> hah I have alot of different connectors, but not enough of any :P
[18:00:23] <frallzor> and mixing is just not ok!
[18:00:40] <Jymmm> Now these are AWESOME! http://www.plumbersurplus.com/images/prod/5/Thomas--Betts-WT111M-rw-86623-151062.jpg You'll break the wire before it coming out of the connector
[18:01:20] <Jymmm> The newer version of those are kinda funky, so you have to watch for that. You want the double dimple ones
[18:01:53] <Jymmm> These are the newer funky ones http://www.labsafety.com/images/xl/Thomas-and-Betts-Pliler-LSS-_i_LBC145057S.jpg
[18:02:41] <archivist> MattyMatt, cat5 is really not suitable, it cannot stand flexing apart from the thin strands
[18:03:04] <Jymmm> archivist: cat5 is solid
[18:03:20] <archivist> I know
[18:03:32] <MattyMatt> yep solid core. I haven't used it for the flexible portions
[18:03:33] <Jymmm> you said stranded
[18:04:05] <archivist> Jymmm, I know, single thin strands
[18:04:39] <Jymmm> 8 conductor, 24ga solid
[18:04:50] <Jymmm> and whats worse is CAT5 is not shielded
[18:04:55] <MattyMatt> I made 'ribbon cable' with 2x fig8 + duct tape, for my Z motor
[18:04:59] <archivist> we did print head cables for a job, we learnt the problems
[18:05:16] <Jymmm> archivist: ouch
[18:05:49] <Jymmm> archivist: what did you end up using?
[18:05:51] <archivist> standard idc ribbon lasted about an hour
[18:06:18] <archivist> proper flat flexible from Gore
[18:06:20] <MattyMatt> the idc was still working in the Microline92 I butchered
[18:06:40] <MattyMatt> I should put that together again now I'm not using the motors
[18:06:42] <Jymmm> archivist: how much of a bitch was the flex to terminate?
[18:07:06] <archivist> easy, they did that for us
[18:07:11] <Jymmm> lol
[18:07:20] <Jymmm> that's cheating fscker =)
[18:09:59] <MattyMatt> test lead wire, braided with cotton. that's sth I'd do if I had to
[18:10:21] <Jymmm> s/cotton/nylon/
[18:10:38] <MattyMatt> polyester more like :)
[18:10:59] <MattyMatt> using what's to hand, cotton = sewing thread
[18:11:42] <archivist> bend radius is the key, larger = more reliable
[18:13:21] <MattyMatt> and one of those plastic link guides
[18:13:34] <MattyMatt> I need a couple of those
[18:13:54] <Jymmm> energy chain?
[18:14:16] <Jymmm> http://www.igus.com/echain.asp
[18:14:58] <MattyMatt> that's the stuff, but US suppliers are no use to us here in EU
[18:14:59] <frallzor> igus is nice
[18:15:05] <frallzor> found it cheap from UK
[18:15:25] <Jymmm> OH!!! Hey, does anyone need/looking for energy chain that's apx 4" wide by 1.5" tall non-opening type (must feed thru)?
[18:15:39] <Jymmm> I'm thinking skunkworks ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[18:17:42] <frallzor> MattyMatt ya looking for energy chains?
[18:19:23] <MattyMatt> found igus.co.uk :)
[18:19:40] <MattyMatt> when a scotsman builds a mechmate -> http://www.igus.co.uk/wpck/image.htm?/_wpck/images/global/enlarge/pu_rolechain_3e.jpg
[18:19:41] <frallzor> http://www.worldofcnc.com/products.asp?category=Energy+Chain&subcategory=Eazy+Chain
[18:21:20] <MattyMatt> yeah MarchantDice bits don't seem so overpriced now I've managed without them :)
[18:23:37] <MattyMatt> and also, having the machine actually working means I can risk spending my contingency fund
[18:25:07] <frallzor> =D
[18:25:35] <MattyMatt> 3 axes moving on £10 of motors was more luck than I deserved :)
[18:28:26] <frallzor> how annoying, I have 4 lengths of cable, but 1 is 2.5m shorter but I can tell the different now :P
[18:29:23] <MattyMatt> how much is that in cubits?
[18:29:54] <frallzor> cubits?
[18:30:32] <MattyMatt> it's what Noah used to build the ark, but it's also what you get if you coil wire on your elbow
[18:31:09] <MattyMatt> so coil it and count the turns, divide by 2 = length in cubits
[18:31:32] <frallzor> they are allready coiled
[18:31:41] <frallzor> but not consistant :P
[18:31:54] <MattyMatt> ah, I always use the same elbow :)
[18:31:57] <frallzor> I have to weigh them against each other somehow
[18:32:54] <MattyMatt> 10g difference? good luck
[18:33:23] <frallzor> found it :P
[18:33:30] <frallzor> the weighing way
[18:33:41] <frallzor> 1vs1 on a stick
[18:34:07] <MattyMatt> duh. I was thinking expensive kitchen/postal/lab scales :)
[18:34:35] <MattyMatt> the modern disease
[19:28:15] <pfred1> is there anybody out there?
[19:28:49] <micges> maybe
[19:34:02] <micges> pfred1: ask
[19:34:22] <pfred1> micges I did you answered I appreciate it
[19:35:11] <pfred1> actually I'm really excited having found some new ICs to make motor drivers out of
[19:35:26] <frallzor> ahh wired the mill now
[19:35:34] <frallzor> went along faster than i thought
[19:35:36] <pfred1> frallzor whats taking you?
[19:36:08] <frallzor> now I just have to hook cables to steppers
[19:37:55] <pfred1> I think I found the sweetest stepper motor driver ICs
[19:38:26] <pfred1> 40 V 3.5A per phase microstepping with current stepping too
[19:47:47] <pfred1> man implementing this IC is dead simple!
[19:48:06] <pfred1> 8 components and go!
[20:12:07] <Jymmm> Ribs on the Q - YEAH BABY!!!!
[20:12:22] <Jymmm> Low n slow =)
[20:14:48] <morfic> a Q? not a Barbie?
[20:14:54] <Jymmm> BBQ
[20:15:01] <morfic> i know
[20:25:15] <terrylm> Hi all
[20:25:20] <pfred1> hi
[20:26:09] <pfred1> the day of the sub $10 bipolar chopping microstepping drivers has finally arrived!
[20:27:48] <terrylm> The other day someone had mention the possiblity of adding a reset or feedback zeroing capability to stepgen, is that person here? or anyone know about this?
[20:28:26] <pfred1> terrylm like a step sequence home signal?
[20:29:15] <terrylm> Like when homing is done with the use of the encoder index...
[20:29:27] <terrylm> the encoder gets zeroed...
[20:29:34] <pfred1> oh OK
[20:29:59] <terrylm> and is then out of sink with stepgen ...
[20:30:48] <terrylm> so a following error occurs as the machine tries in vain to catch it's own tail.
[20:33:15] <terrylm> Just to test if that was what was really happening, I used a chain of sum2s to subtract the encoder feedback from the stepgen feedback and add the difference to the commanded value sent to stepgen.
[20:33:19] <pfred1> my cat can catch his own tail
[20:33:36] <terrylm> Yes, but EMC can not...
[20:33:49] <pfred1> yes my cat is more talented I suppose ...
[20:33:51] <terrylm> Anyway, it worked, sort of.
[20:34:37] <terrylm> I had to open up the allowed following error as it jitters a lot.
[20:35:32] <terrylm> Static jitter is less then 0.002 in., but on the move it can reach 0.040.
[20:36:19] <pfred1> so is it a signal conditionaing problem with the hardware?
[20:37:06] <terrylm> The jitter is due to the two step chain of math.
[20:38:46] <terrylm> The root problem is that if one wants to use the index when homing, then the encoder feedback gets zeroed, but stepgens idea of where it is does not.
[20:40:05] <pfred1> people are such brutal hacks i swear! http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=84031&d=1247004337
[20:40:49] <pfred1> half a heatsink is better than no heatsink I suppose ...
[20:42:45] <fluorine> anyone have ideas for a list of criteria to determine the AC integrity?
[20:43:45] <terrylm> Huh?
[20:44:08] <pfred1> terrylm you said it!
[20:44:25] <skunkworks> wrong emc?
[20:45:14] <fluorine> oh man, what channel did i join? geez
[20:45:28] <pfred1> fluorine ha ha!
[20:50:30] <fluorine> huh, same channel as before?
[20:51:12] <pfred1> fluorine thats OK we like company
[20:51:27] <skunkworks> reword your question
[20:52:05] <fluorine> um, i'm not sure, but occasionally, my computer turns off when my cnc runs
[20:52:22] <fluorine> so i'm thinking there's some glitch with my AC
[20:52:28] <fluorine> (if that makes ssense)
[20:53:12] <Jymmm> fluorine: you dont have a water well on your property, do you?
[20:53:21] <fluorine> i'm thinking of monitoring (and possibly recording) the RMS of the power, but i'm not too sure if that's a good criteria to use to switch
[20:53:33] <fluorine> Jymmm: i don't, why?
[20:53:42] <pfred1> Jymmm I do!
[20:53:47] <Jymmm> fluorine: then check for brown outs
[20:54:11] <skunkworks> fluorine: you could add a decsent ups...
[20:55:59] <fluorine> skunkworks: hm, any recommendations?
[20:56:10] <Jymmm> APC
[20:56:24] <skunkworks> ^
[20:56:38] <fluorine> ok, will check it out
[20:56:40] <fluorine> thanks, both
[20:57:10] <Jymmm> Heh, thw washing machine kicks over to spin and sets off the UPS every time =)
[20:57:44] <fluorine> quick question: if the comp still turns off when the cnc turns on even with the UPS attached, would it be reasonable to infer that the source of problem is something besides AC?
[20:58:31] <Jymmm> fluorine: As a test, plug in the PC into a different circuit
[20:58:35] <pfred1> fluorine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague
[21:03:51] <fluorine> ok, i just read that entire article
[21:04:13] <pfred1> fluorine I figured you'd like it ;)
[21:04:18] <fluorine> seems like i'd be royally screwed if that were the case -- i'd have to buy a whole new motherboard
[21:04:40] <pfred1> nah you can always class action sue the slimy bastards that sold it to you
[21:05:09] <pfred1> but I have seen puffed up caps
[21:05:14] <pfred1> now i know whats going on!
[21:05:39] <fluorine> i guess i'll buy the APC and pray to every god under the sun
[21:05:55] <pfred1> you're tripping a breaker?
[21:06:12] <fluorine> "breaker"?
[21:06:51] <pfred1> circuit breaker
[21:07:04] <fluorine> too complicated :)
[21:07:39] <pfred1> so you're hoping to do what with the APC filter noise?
[21:08:38] <terrylm> Put an O-scope on the line and see what is going on...
[21:08:53] <pfred1> oh! oh! oh!
[21:09:02] <fluorine> uh, straight into the 120?
[21:09:26] <pfred1> fluorine if that worries you forget about TV repair!
[21:10:10] <terrylm> Ya, use the 10X on the prob if need by, don't hook up the ground clip, it should already be grounded via the power cord.
[21:10:20] <fluorine> ok...
[21:10:20] <terrylm> by=be
[21:10:27] <fluorine> bye
[21:11:25] <SWPadnos> terrylm, you should only change the offset when you're homing and the index arrives, not all the time
[21:11:36] <pfred1> yeah on 10X my scope is 50 V/DIV
[21:11:58] <terrylm> ouch, only 50V?
[21:12:01] <SWPadnos> there's no reason why you should get jitter in the following error while there's motion
[21:12:14] <pfred1> terrylm there's a lot of divisions
[21:12:14] <terrylm> oh, ya, that would be right.
[21:13:07] <pfred1> which is to say my scope is a lot more comfortable with high V than I am!
[21:13:20] <terrylm> SWPadnos; It was just a quick and dirty test, ...
[21:13:31] <SWPadnos> sure
[21:13:53] <terrylm> pfred1; One could always use a voltage divider aka resistor network...
[21:13:59] <SWPadnos> but AND'ing the index input with some home state comparison might make it work better (ie, actually be usable)
[21:14:27] <pfred1> terrylm when in doubt i often throw a meg resistor on the end
[21:14:29] <terrylm> Maybe.
[21:16:21] <terrylm> pfred1; not the same as a voltage divider, two resistors chained from high voltage to ground, the point in the middle will be some value in between high voltage and ground.
[21:16:56] <pfred1> terrylm yeah i was making one just the other day but it couldn't supply enough current for my application
[21:17:03] <terrylm> I will probably just go with out the index for homing for now.
[21:17:12] <frallzor> * frallzor just milled EMC2 AXIS in the air
[21:17:37] <skunkworks> sweet!
[21:18:18] <pfred1> frallzor go for foam!
[21:19:56] <frallzor> now I just need 3phase wired and I can do the real deal
[21:21:20] <terrylm> for the spindle?
[21:21:36] <frallzor> yup
[21:21:57] <frallzor> cant really mill much with a spindle not moving =P
[21:22:19] <frallzor> at least I can try to setup my touch off plate with emc tomorrow
[21:22:34] <pfred1> frallzor what kind of a machine a full sized mill?
[21:23:07] <terrylm> I've seen those cheap converter boxes used on a knee mill, it worked good, just could not do instant reverse with it.
[21:23:58] <pfred1> its cheaper than having the service run
[21:24:05] <frallzor> pfred1 the big blue
[21:24:08] <frallzor> youve seen it
[21:24:25] <frallzor> got a cheap danfoss inverter for it
[21:24:32] <frallzor> can do 11kW =P
[21:24:35] <pfred1> frallzor so there's 3 phase on site already?
[21:24:38] <frallzor> but I use a 2kW spindle
[21:24:53] <frallzor> every household here has 3phase in
[21:25:00] <pfred1> not here
[21:25:01] <frallzor> just need to extend out in the garage
[21:25:11] <terrylm> Wow, where do you live?
[21:25:15] <frallzor> sweden
[21:25:19] <pfred1> Delaware
[21:25:41] <pfred1> in the US its single unless you have special service
[21:25:58] <terrylm> Neat, just you area or the whole country has 3 phase to homes?
[21:26:05] <pfred1> 3 phase requires special transformer
[21:26:25] <frallzor> terrylm whole country I assume
[21:27:02] <frallzor> but in bigger buildings like apartments and such it might not have been wired, 3phase in > 1-2phase out
[21:27:16] <frallzor> we use that normally for ovens and such
[21:27:20] <frallzor> 2-3phase is normal
[21:27:26] <frallzor> washer, dryer too
[21:27:43] <pfred1> we use single phase 220V for that
[21:28:01] <frallzor> 220V? in the states?
[21:28:07] <pfred1> sure
[21:28:16] <pfred1> all of US is 220
[21:28:23] <frallzor> arent you guys using the retarded 120V?
[21:28:24] <pfred1> but each leg is 110
[21:28:28] <frallzor> ah
[21:28:33] <frallzor> 2phase that is then?
[21:28:41] <pfred1> we call it single phase
[21:28:55] <terrylm> but ya, 2 phase.
[21:28:57] <pfred1> you have the two hots then a neutral
[21:29:05] <frallzor> aka 2phase :P
[21:29:08] <pfred1> so betwen the two hots is 220
[21:29:30] <pfred1> well we just call it single
[21:29:50] <pfred1> because it looks like a big sine wave
[21:30:26] <pfred1> I guess in America we throw in the ground gratis to every customer?
[21:30:41] <Guest576> in truth it is single phase
[21:30:50] <pfred1> I know
[21:30:51] <Guest576> 220 with center tap
[21:31:04] <Guest576> that is how you get the 110
[21:31:18] <pfred1> yup two hots then the neutral
[21:31:45] <pfred1> but its just single phase
[21:32:09] <Guest576> that is because we tie the center tap tp ground
[21:32:31] <pfred1> yeah sure beats pulling a million volts out of a wall socket don't it?
[21:32:52] <Guest576> there is a reason to do that
[21:33:08] <Guest576> it helps with the loading of the wire
[21:33:10] <pfred1> yeah keeps the electrical grid at a reasonable potential
[21:33:28] <Guest576> yes and help balance the load in the wire
[21:33:32] <frallzor> only in america :P
[21:33:50] <frallzor> * frallzor is probably visiting this summer!
[21:33:52] <pfred1> yeah where we invented electrical grids
[21:34:13] <frallzor> where ya all live so I dont run into you? :P
[21:34:16] <pfred1> a european had to come here in order to do it
[21:34:48] <pfred1> frallzor USA is pretty big I doubt yo ucould find me even if I gave you precise directions
[21:34:49] <terrylm> Florida.
[21:34:53] <Guest576> the grid is one place where euro has it better
[21:35:12] <Guest576> but they should have it at 60hz not 50hz
[21:35:18] <pfred1> terrylm florida is huge it took me 7 hours to go from the keys to my aunt's huse and she's just in central east coast of FL
[21:35:21] <frallzor> how long would east to west take by car?
[21:35:23] <Guest576> that does suck with there system
[21:35:37] <pfred1> frallzor you can go cross country in under 52 hours
[21:35:54] <terrylm> 2 hours
[21:35:57] <pfred1> frallzor but you're not going to smell very good when you finally get there!
[21:36:03] <terrylm> tops
[21:36:18] <pfred1> oh across florida?
[21:36:26] <frallzor> across the entire continent :P
[21:36:32] <pfred1> I donno it takes like an hour and a half to go from orlando to the east coast
[21:36:36] <terrylm> ya
[21:36:40] <terrylm> fl
[21:36:47] <pfred1> terrylm you must drive very fast
[21:37:02] <frallzor> maybe he drives a volvo? ;)
[21:37:02] <pfred1> if you're going clear across florida in 2 hours
[21:37:15] <pfred1> it should take closer to 3
[21:37:51] <terrylm> No. I used to commute across and down a bit, around lake okachobee, 2.5 hours.
[21:38:07] <pfred1> a little better you're still hauling though
[21:38:30] <terrylm> 70 mostly
[21:38:33] <pfred1> back when I livedi n Fl there were places you could do that out in the everglades
[21:38:42] <skunkworks> so - if I have it right by playing with it... When you give a Txx - tool.prepare goes true. this would activate the tool chain and find the tool. the tool chain logic then would toggle the tool-prepared to true for a little time (like a oneshot) is there a minimum amount of time this should be held true?
[21:38:44] <pfred1> we'd drive like 100MPH+
[21:39:08] <DaViruz> Guest576: so whats the inherent benefit with a 60Hz grid?
[21:39:28] <pfred1> DaViruz its easy to make crappy electrical clocks
[21:39:43] <SWPadnos> skunkworks, I think tool-prepared needs to remain true until tool-prepare turns off
[21:39:59] <SWPadnos> same for tool-changed - should stay on until after tool-change turns off
[21:40:01] <SWPadnos> bbl
[21:40:10] <terrylm> skunkworks: My turret holds it true until the tool.prepare goes false.
[21:40:32] <pfred1> I donno if I could handle living on a 50Hz grid I'm so attuned to 60Hz now
[21:41:10] <Guest576> motors turn faster so more power out of the same motor
[21:41:23] <pfred1> Guest576 yeah they run cooler too don't they?
[21:41:35] <Guest576> also transformers and motors run cooler
[21:41:39] <DaViruz> Guest576: are you kidding me? :))
[21:41:40] <terrylm> OH, ya, I only use change/changed, the prep/preped are just link strait to each other.
[21:42:10] <pfred1> Guest576 a lot of places in the world Hz of line voltage is random
[21:42:32] <pfred1> Guest576 you're lucky if when you plug something in it works at all!
[21:42:52] <Guest576> lol
[21:43:11] <Guest576> whenwe get storms it can be the same here as well
[21:43:17] <terrylm> pfred1, random? where?, nowhere I've been.
[21:43:32] <Guest576> wind, ice
[21:43:50] <skunkworks> terrylm: ah - that makes sense
[21:44:18] <pfred1> terrylm go to Africa
[21:44:27] <Guest576> also truck crashing pole racks havick on the power lines
[21:44:37] <terrylm> Oh, never been there.
[21:44:56] <pfred1> terrylm it is indeed a big world we live on
[21:45:14] <Guest576> yet so small with the net
[21:45:38] <terrylm> ya, I used to travel more, sometimes I miss traveling.
[21:45:41] <pfred1> I used to IRC on an african network and we'd marvel at our pings
[21:45:42] <Guest576> we can all talk to each other real time nomatter where we are
[21:46:07] <Guest576> the pings suck?
[21:46:14] <pfred1> nah they were great
[21:46:19] <Guest576> ?
[21:46:25] <pfred1> sub 1s less lag than this network has lately
[21:46:43] <pfred1> 17:46 CTCP PING reply from pfred1: 2.820 seconds
[21:47:28] <Guest576> the thing that sucks with our power is 15 amps at 110 volts
[21:47:46] <Guest576> not allot of power to do things
[21:47:49] <pfred1> Guest576 you haven't been keeping up with the code lately
[21:48:06] <pfred1> Guest576 lotw of circuits are mandatory 20 amps now
[21:48:21] <Guest576> we can run 240/220 if we want but the norm is 110
[21:49:00] <Guest576> I run 20 amp in places
[21:49:04] <pfred1> I ran a gypsy 220V line to one corner of my garage to run some heavier power tools off of i piggybacked off my stove line
[21:49:16] <pfred1> its 50 amps 220V
[21:49:20] <Guest576> it can be done
[21:49:34] <pfred1> I figure if I'm cooking its unlikely I'll be welding or milling
[21:49:59] <Guest576> then you do not have a gal to cook for you
[21:50:07] <pfred1> no
[21:50:26] <Guest576> I have 50, 75 and 100 amp lines
[21:50:30] <pfred1> don't need one either I'm an Ok cook
[21:51:04] <Guest576> I should correct one thing
[21:51:12] <Guest576> it is no longer 110
[21:51:50] <Guest576> 120 and 240 is the line voltage
[21:52:15] <pfred1> but it is often referred to as 110 and 220
[21:52:33] <pfred1> sometimes even 115
[21:53:04] <Guest576> what amprage does euro have at the standerd outlet?
[21:53:07] <terrylm> It is a range, 110 to 120, the middle of which is 115
[21:53:10] <pfred1> in brownout situations it can go as low as 90 before it'll just drop out
[21:54:06] <pfred1> terrylm when i bought this place I resetup the pool here and was a bit concerned how the last joker had it wired up with 14 gauge SG wire stapled under the deck so I did some voltage measurements then
[21:54:19] <Guest576> as I live in BC witch is in western Canada with all the power dams here that would be why I am at 120
[21:54:36] <pfred1> terrylm when the pool pump ran it dropped 3 volts after i replaced it with 12 gauge UF cable no more line drop
[21:55:48] <pfred1> Guest576 we're at 120V typically USA and Canada share electrical grids
[21:56:03] <Guest576> as for code, 15 is the recomended amprage here, but 20 amps is ok for shorter runs or heavier wire
[21:56:31] <pfred1> Guest576 I remember the last time you guys blacked us out even!
[21:57:07] <pfred1> when the whole north eastern grid collapased I believe the cascade originated in Canada
[21:57:13] <Guest576> as we are the source of much of your power, there is no voltage drop yet where I am
[21:57:43] <pfred1> Guest576 I'm in the mid atlantic now I don't think the canadian grid extends this far south
[21:58:29] <pfred1> I think most of my power comes from Virginia
[21:58:45] <Guest576> it would also depend on the transformers used
[21:59:34] <Guest576> the line voltage could be the same but the transformers used to feed houses could be wound differant
[22:00:04] <Guest576> one thing I do know is we are a solid 120/240 at my house
[22:00:44] <Guest576> could be a tad higher
[22:00:55] <pfred1> Guest576 here in the summer our electrical grid can get taxed heavily when too many are blasting their air conditioners at the same time
[22:01:18] <Guest576> but I have never seen it lower, unless we are in a storm and the lines are being hit by trees
[22:01:58] <pfred1> my electrical company has this stuff called beat the peak times
[22:02:30] <pfred1> where they ask customers to limit power usage certian times of the day because power is sold on an open brokered market
[22:03:41] <Guest576> we have a heat pump, it is great, heat in winter, and one hell of a good airconditioner in the summer
[22:04:03] <Guest576> can turn the house into a meat locker in no time in mid summer
[22:04:22] <pfred1> heat pumps aren't too swift below 40F
[22:04:49] <Guest576> if you cheap out, no they are not
[22:04:54] <Guest576> go deep
[22:05:08] <pfred1> oh you mean you have geothermal?
[22:05:12] <Guest576> drill wells deep in the ground and your good to go
[22:05:18] <Guest576> yes
[22:05:28] <SWPadnos> ground source heat pump, not geothermal
[22:05:32] <pfred1> here we make a distinction between above and below ground heat exchangers
[22:06:03] <Guest576> it is good for heat in the winter, but man, the cooling in summer is insame
[22:06:22] <pfred1> SWPadnos here its called geothermal if you exchange heat under the surface
[22:06:43] <SWPadnos> it should be called geothermal if you're generating electricity from an underground thermal source
[22:06:44] <Guest576> ok, here it is called that to
[22:06:55] <Guest576> but they are all heat pumps
[22:06:57] <SWPadnos> not if you're just using the ground/groundwater as the heat exchange medium
[22:07:19] <pfred1> SWPadnos I don't think the industry is listening to you
[22:07:23] <SWPadnos> but that could just be my opinion :)
[22:07:49] <Guest576> the guy that sold it to us called it geothermal
[22:07:55] <pfred1> SWPadnos so personal opinion aside i am going to stick with common usage terms
[22:08:29] <SWPadnos> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_heat_pump
[22:08:37] <pfred1> Guest576 whether it is or it isn't that is what it is called
[22:08:44] <Guest576> heat pump is any mech that is used to move heat from point a to point b
[22:08:56] <pfred1> SWPadnos wikipedia is irrelevant
[22:09:18] <SWPadnos> sales/specsmanship is also irrelevant :)
[22:09:41] <pfred1> SWPadnos not when they're gonna come drill wells it ain't!
[22:09:49] <SWPadnos> heh
[22:10:15] <Guest576> the more wells the better
[22:10:20] <Guest576> more $$$ to
[22:10:33] <Guest576> but well worth the extra $$$
[22:10:45] <pfred1> but anyhow when it sita above ground we call it a simple heat pump but below ground it suddenly becomes "geothermal"
[22:11:17] <pfred1> Guest576 all I got is units sitting outside
[22:11:28] <Guest576> just a way for easy distintions
[22:11:37] <pfred1> Guest576 though some here do go through the trouble of 'geothermalng" their systems
[22:11:59] <Guest576> they are not so good as your taking or dumping heat to the air
[22:12:18] <pfred1> Guest576 yeah 90% of the time they are here
[22:12:26] <Guest576> when getting and dumping to water or rock it is tons better
[22:13:33] <Guest576> if you have a pool, use the AC to heat the pool
[22:13:42] <Guest576> you will same $$ doing that
[22:13:47] <Guest576> save
[22:13:58] <pfred1> I don't heat my pool
[22:14:19] <Guest576> way better to dump heat to water then to the 100f air outside
[22:14:20] <pfred1> and in a good season it'll hit 95F
[22:15:25] <Guest576> what temp would the air be?
[22:15:40] <pfred1> probably less actually
[22:15:54] <Guest576> also does the pool cool down at night?
[22:16:17] <pfred1> I guess but I usually don't go skinny dipping in it much past midnite usually :)
[22:16:30] <Guest576> lol
[22:17:44] <Guest576> our power bill has dropped big time with with the geo
[22:17:58] <pfred1> http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/4994/pooldone.jpg
[22:18:21] <Guest576> in the summer, 100+ outside and the pump hardly runs
[22:19:10] <Guest576> nice
[22:19:24] <pfred1> Guest576 in the world of carbon I want to be known as Bigfoot!
[22:19:25] <Guest576> nice place to cool off
[22:19:34] <Guest576> lol
[22:19:56] <pfred1> here in the summer a pool is a neccisitity
[22:20:09] <Guest576> I am not a man made global warming guy
[22:20:21] <Guest576> yes it may be getting warmer
[22:20:29] <pfred1> hey the warmer it gets the longer i can keep my pool open
[22:20:46] <Guest576> but it has been tons more warmer in the past with out any help from man
[22:21:12] <pfred1> yeah I'm not a big believer in anthamorphic global warming myself
[22:21:18] <Jymmm> pfred1: Where do you live?
[22:21:26] <pfred1> Jymmm Delaware
[22:21:43] <Guest576> get a heat pump and dump the heat to the pool and you can keep it open much longer and save money doing it
[22:21:47] <pfred1> Jymmm I'm 40 feet above sea level so I'm set!
[22:21:51] <Jymmm> pfred1: Ah. Is the grass on the far end of the pool natural ?
[22:22:09] <pfred1> Jymmm you mean my tufts of undecorate grass/
[22:22:24] <pfred1> Jymmm nah i think someone planted them to hide the septic mound
[22:22:32] <Jymmm> ah ok
[22:22:50] <pfred1> Jymmm i do plan on digging them up for some more decorative grasses someday
[22:23:01] <Jymmm> that's just a LOT of landscaping is why I asked
[22:23:10] <pfred1> because i have literally seen weeds in roadside ditches that look better!
[22:23:20] <Guest576> lol
[22:23:33] <Guest576> hey it is green and looks nice in the pix
[22:23:44] <pfred1> thanks i try
[22:23:44] <Guest576> I would not bother to change it
[22:24:05] <Jymmm> me neither, unless it promotes spider nests
[22:24:08] <pfred1> I go ape landscaping here
[22:24:36] <pfred1> I have about an acre I try to maintain
[22:24:39] <Jymmm> There are a LOT ok black windows here, and no landscaping either!
[22:24:44] <Jymmm> s/ok/of/
[22:24:56] <Guest576> we sure are a long way from cnc topic
[22:25:02] <Jymmm> I need to buy another 600 lbs of salt too this week
[22:25:09] <frallzor> http://vimeo.com/10677659 its done! Ill shoot a better videon when all clean later, shitload of screws and such rattling around on it :P
[22:25:12] <pfred1> Jymmm what for?
[22:25:23] <Jymmm> pfred1: kill the weeds =)
[22:25:28] <morfic> pfred1: wanna come over and do my yard? seems as little as it is, it would seem relaxing to you, i hate landscaping
[22:25:40] <pfred1> Jymmm oh i just mow whatever to an even height and call it a lawn
[22:26:02] <morfic> pfred1: that is my "lawn" right now
[22:26:14] <Jymmm> pfred1: I've already put down over 2000 lbs all around, but getting expensive now. so the 600 lbs will be for the sides and near the wall edges.
[22:26:30] <Jymmm> Now, it's just mow before they go to seed.
[22:28:41] <pfred1> Jymmm I don't think salt is going to help: http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/6353/41335669.jpg
[22:28:42] <Guest576> looks like a nice machine
[22:29:20] <Guest576> lots of noise but not allot of movement, am I missing something?
[22:29:42] <frallzor> moi?
[22:29:44] <Guest576> sounds like the speppers are cogging
[22:30:20] <frallzor> they are working fine, rack and pinion pinion and a load of screws riding along making nice noise
[22:30:20] <Guest576> what is moi?
[22:30:27] <frallzor> moi, me =)
[22:30:40] <Guest576> ok
[22:30:55] <frallzor> the steppers doesnt seem to like the slow speed either, sound more at low speeds than on high
[22:31:18] <frallzor> but I guess thats steppers in a nutshell
[22:31:32] <frallzor> when all is cleaned out Ill do a proper vid =)
[22:31:43] <Guest576> cool
[22:31:49] <Guest576> so what size is it?
[22:31:56] <Guest576> looks big in the vid
[22:32:17] <frallzor> I overpurshased screws, 2x more laying around on the build than actually mounted on it :P
[22:32:21] <morfic> looks like a nice router
[22:32:32] <frallzor> Guest576 you do meters or inches?
[22:32:35] <pfred1> frallzor are your X and Y axises on Vee bearings?
[22:32:50] <frallzor> pfred1 all axis =)
[22:33:45] <frallzor> 5.3x9 feet
[22:33:51] <frallzor> is the size
[22:33:58] <Guest576> both ether, my machines are running inch mode
[22:33:58] <frallzor> workarea
[22:34:22] <Guest576> nice size
[22:34:42] <frallzor> bit bigger in total size, but not much
[22:34:45] <Guest576> full sheet plus room the tool changing
[22:35:14] <Guest576> I would say the perfect size
[22:35:26] <pfred1> frallzor is your machine a mechmate plan?
[22:35:31] <frallzor> indeed it is
[22:35:49] <pfred1> I knew it looked familiar
[22:36:05] <frallzor> didnt want to do something of my own this time, used a plan that works =)
[22:36:28] <frallzor> too much at stake =)
[22:36:51] <Guest576> how much did it cost to do?
[22:37:36] <pfred1> I like some aspects of the mechmate design
[22:37:43] <frallzor> too much
[22:37:45] <frallzor> =)
[22:38:04] <frallzor> 3x more than I expected at first
[22:38:18] <frallzor> but stuff costs more than you think
[22:38:22] <pfred1> that is par for the course
[22:38:44] <Guest576> if you cut for cash and it works well, hard for it to be to much
[22:38:47] <frallzor> but its not done until its first cut
[22:38:49] <pfred1> I ususally 2X underestimate projects so I know now to double my expectations
[22:39:04] <frallzor> but I expect it to be this coming week
[22:39:22] <pfred1> frallzor so we should expect you running in 3 weeks?
[22:39:28] <Guest576> is this a work machine or play?
[22:40:01] <frallzor> play but I expect to turn into work on the side
[22:40:44] <frallzor> studying to be a industrial designer, so Im a creative bastard and If im lucky I can do nice stuff I design!
[22:40:47] <pfred1> frallzor oh yeah? like what sorts of jobs?
[22:41:22] <frallzor> well got 2 local carpenter that do much by hand, but I bet they dont want to =)
[22:41:23] <frallzor> *s
[22:41:27] <Guest576> so, if one wanted to build one just like you did, what ball park should one buget for?
[22:41:52] <frallzor> Im starting to make a nice cabinet
[22:41:55] <pfred1> frallzor so millwork then?
[22:42:01] <frallzor> got a nice idea for one
[22:42:20] <frallzor> yeah, at least something in that direction
[22:42:26] <frallzor> Guest576 well...
[22:43:01] <frallzor> think of what you would like to spend and just multiply with 3 =P
[22:43:15] <Guest576> cool
[22:43:26] <frallzor> it works =P
[22:43:37] <Guest576> so $20 $60 would be a great deal
[22:43:39] <Guest576> l0ol
[22:43:41] <Guest576> lol
[22:43:56] <morfic> frallzor: what did the one in the video do cost?
[22:43:58] <frallzor> I dont think Ive spent that sum for a single part =P
[22:44:03] <Guest576> what I would like to spend?
[22:44:14] <frallzor> or the screws might have cost that =P
[22:44:20] <Guest576> as little as posable is what I like to spend
[22:44:53] <frallzor> morfic too much
[22:45:00] <pfred1> Guest576 I'll let you know what my motor drivers cost to make but I estimate around $10 a driver now
[22:45:35] <Guest576> I did a mill and lathe
[22:45:48] <Guest576> steppers on the mill
[22:45:58] <Guest576> servos on the lathe
[22:46:06] <frallzor> pricey?
[22:46:17] <Guest576> my drives were $120 each
[22:46:26] <Guest576> geckos
[22:46:47] <pfred1> geckos strike me as overdesigned for most uses
[22:47:00] <Guest576> the large steppers were around 250
[22:47:29] <pfred1> I'm going for smaller motors and drives and multi motors on each axis
[22:47:42] <frallzor> I can never tell anyone of the cost I just realize :P they would think im crazy!
[22:47:48] <Guest576> the servos were 200 pluse a $450 planatary gear unit
[22:47:52] <morfic> frallzor: try me
[22:48:18] <pfred1> frallzor what kind of leadscrews did you use?
[22:48:21] <Guest576> ya and me to
[22:48:30] <frallzor> pfred1 rack and pinion
[22:48:56] <Guest576> try us on the price thing
[22:49:06] <frallzor> i plan to change them in the future, when I can afford, got some cheap chinese ones now
[22:49:08] <Guest576> would never think you crazy
[22:49:09] <pfred1> timing belt probably would have worked just as well
[22:49:17] <frallzor> 9k then =P
[22:49:34] <Guest576> not bad
[22:49:46] <pfred1> frallzor what rapids are you getting?
[22:49:49] <Guest576> I have about 10K into each unit I have
[22:50:04] <frallzor> 18000mm/min atm
[22:50:17] <frallzor> i might even mill at those speed, I need to try that
[22:50:18] <pfred1> what would that be in inches?
[22:50:27] <frallzor> 18000/2.54
[22:50:32] <frallzor> *25.4
[22:51:12] <frallzor> it seems wrong, but it isnt :P
[22:51:24] <pfred1> 708 ipm doesn't quite sound right to me
[22:51:50] <pfred1> but hey great job!
[22:52:03] <frallzor> well, it cant be other than right =)
[22:52:33] <Guest576> I get 708 ipm as well
[22:52:56] <Guest576> are you sure of the 18000 mm/min?
[22:53:07] <morfic> frallzor: let's put it this way, i wish i had $9k to sink into my hobby :)
[22:53:09] <frallzor> 3inch/rev
[22:53:13] <frallzor> for the pinion
[22:53:32] <frallzor> its not that hard to spin at low speeds and get good rate
[22:54:00] <pfred1> morfic I do but I read a book long ago and what it said stuck with me hobbies should not be about spending money but enjoying time
[22:54:21] <frallzor> Ive tried measuring it both with a timer and mathematically
[22:54:24] <frallzor> it all ends up
[22:54:47] <frallzor> but I dont know how much 18000mm/min can pull except rapids =)
[22:55:08] <morfic> pfred1: my comment was based merely on a $income-$bills base
[22:55:17] <frallzor> 4-5months build
[22:55:23] <morfic> frallzor: "adds up" ?
[22:55:32] <frallzor> yeah
[22:55:36] <frallzor> that was the word
[22:55:45] <Guest576> I know a guy that spent ove 100K on his router
[22:55:59] <pfred1> Guest576 why?
[22:56:02] <Guest576> store bought, plug and play
[22:56:37] <Guest576> full table multi zone vacume table
[22:56:40] <pfred1> Guest576 and what does he do with it?
[22:56:49] <Guest576> atc spindle
[22:56:59] <morfic> routers costing that much == loud, thinking it came with a vacuum table like ours ("ours", that's 2 jobs ago now)
[22:56:59] <Guest576> tooling all the way down the table
[22:57:22] <morfic> Guest576: sacrifice peg board as table surface?
[22:57:54] <Guest576> he had some sort of stuff
[22:58:07] <frallzor> that reminds me, need to figure out a nice fastening system....
[22:58:10] <Guest576> did not look like peg board
[22:58:34] <Guest576> he cuts aluminum with if
[22:58:43] <Guest576> big heavy and tough
[22:59:01] <pfred1> Guest576 to what end?
[22:59:13] <pfred1> like what does he do with this cut up aluminum?
[22:59:27] <Guest576> he make snowmobile parts
[22:59:42] <pfred1> frames?
[22:59:50] <Guest576> he wants to
[22:59:54] <Guest576> but not yet
[23:00:09] <pfred1> why not?
[23:00:18] <pfred1> I mean he has the machine what seems to be the hold up now?
[23:00:25] <Guest576> gage cluster mopunts and other flat things
[23:00:38] <pfred1> you have got to be kidding me
[23:00:42] <morfic> Guest576: it was a sacrifice surface, so we could cut through the aluminum sheets, we bought it to engrave anodized aluminum, then we made a lot of parts for the ink carrier and engraved the covers on the horizontal mill (it did the job it was justified for so well, it had a lot of idle time after replacing 4 mills to do one part)
[23:00:43] <Guest576> sure for cutting
[23:00:45] <pfred1> he could have had someone make him a die
[23:01:39] <Guest576> but you cut flat and have to bend the tunel to final form
[23:02:01] <pfred1> yup where as a die press would just pop out a part
[23:02:07] <Guest576> he does not have the bug brakes needed
[23:02:30] <Guest576> if your doing high volume stuff sure
[23:03:55] <Guest576> there is a guy 2 hours away that uses a router to cut and bakes to form the snowmobile frams
[23:04:01] <Guest576> frames
[23:05:27] <pfred1> well commercially one has to justify a reasonable ROI
[23:06:15] <pfred1> I bet 100K could have bought a lot of gauge clusters out of china
[23:06:43] <Guest576> lol
[23:06:46] <Guest576> yes
[23:06:50] <pfred1> probbaly 100K of them
[23:07:04] <Guest576> it is idle more then it is running for sure
[23:07:23] <Guest576> it is hardly used at all
[23:07:35] <Guest576> and he is making payments on it
[23:07:42] <pfred1> and really if the guy had a brain in his skull for that kind of cash he should have just gotten a water jet
[23:08:04] <pfred1> you can pile steel stock a foot thick onto a water jet and cut it all in one go
[23:08:19] <Guest576> he does ingrave things with it as well
[23:09:09] <pfred1> when you're dropping that kind of loot you need to expect quite a bit
[23:09:09] <Guest576> he aslo makes other odds and ends with it, things that could not be done with a water jet
[23:09:21] <frallzor> will be interesting to see how fine I can do stuff
[23:09:42] <pfred1> frallzor what is your minimum resolution?
[23:09:46] <Guest576> yes I would love to hear how it works out for you
[23:10:08] <morfic> for $100K you could buy a minimill (toolroom mill if it is more suited) minilathe (or toolroom lathe) and have cash left for tools and material
[23:10:09] <Guest576> I would love to make one very close to what you just did
[23:10:14] <frallzor> pfred1 dunno
[23:10:16] <frallzor> how to tell?
[23:10:32] <pfred1> emc2 should tell you in setup
[23:10:39] <frallzor> im not in emc2 now
[23:11:19] <frallzor> how does one calculate manually? =)
[23:11:25] <Guest576> he said 3 inch per rev
[23:11:35] <Guest576> 200 steps
[23:11:59] <pfred1> yeah but he's probably microstepping
[23:12:03] <Guest576> .015 per step
[23:12:09] <frallzor> 10 microsteps
[23:12:17] <Guest576> .0015
[23:12:27] <pfred1> but microstepping does not seem to be positionally accurate
[23:12:31] <Guest576> 1.5 thou per micro step
[23:12:39] <pfred1> it isn't cumulative error though
[23:12:53] <Guest576> true
[23:12:55] <pfred1> one rev is still one rev
[23:13:10] <frallzor> still its pretty decent
[23:13:11] <pfred1> but where you end up in each step is almost random
[23:13:12] <Guest576> one step is one step
[23:13:24] <pfred1> not microstepping it ain't
[23:13:27] <Guest576> only the micro steps are not even
[23:14:03] <pfred1> yeah i guess at the end of each micro sequence you're at a full step position
[23:14:39] <pfred1> but even torques aren't even inside of microsteps
[23:15:36] <Guest576> right, but at each full step the torque is full
[23:16:06] <pfred1> that doesn't help out in uneven torque curves
[23:16:31] <pfred1> its really a major contributor to the problem in fact
[23:16:53] <Guest576> so true res is 15 thou with a posable 1.5 thou +/- 1.5?
[23:16:54] <pfred1> all of this is what leads people down the servo route
[23:16:59] <Guest576> sound about right?
[23:17:44] <pfred1> with an open loop system its al la crapshoot no matter how you slice it
[23:18:24] <Guest576> servo with planatary gears
[23:18:32] <Guest576> can not be beat
[23:18:34] <pfred1> gears have backlash
[23:18:35] <Guest576> lol
[23:18:44] <Guest576> true
[23:19:00] <pfred1> glass slides are tough to beat
[23:19:29] <Guest576> reduction drive belts may be a tad better, but they have streach as well
[23:20:06] <pfred1> you can get a PHd in timing belt technology and still know nothing it seems
[23:20:06] <Jymmm> pfred1: Salt works that's for sure.
[23:20:13] <Guest576> hard to keep sealed with dust and junk flying around
[23:20:29] <pfred1> Jymmm then how come weeds grow by the bay here?
[23:20:33] <Guest576> rotory encoders may be better
[23:21:34] <pfred1> though strangely there is always a dead band by the ocean
[23:22:36] <Guest576> one thing I would like to know as I have been using Mach and would like to move to EMC
[23:22:53] <Guest576> can one close loop steppers with EMC?
[23:23:19] <Guest576> I read that EMC has encoder inputs
[23:23:55] <pfred1> I think if you want to get serious with EMC you need one of the boards that works with it
[23:24:07] <frallzor> time for ze bed! 01.23 here NN
[23:24:12] <Guest576> would like to know more about EMC how it compairs to mach
[23:24:30] <mozmck> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Steppers_With_Encoders
[23:24:40] <pfred1> I think mach comes with some other cam software doesn't it?
[23:24:59] <Guest576> lol
[23:25:06] <Guest576> yes and no
[23:25:10] <Guest576> sort of
[23:25:16] <Guest576> seprate lic
[23:26:01] <Guest576> lazy cam
[23:26:10] <pfred1> emc seems to be developing more and more as time goes on
[23:26:27] <Guest576> and to say it is cam is a strech
[23:26:46] <pfred1> well right now to say anything in linux is cam is a bit of a stretch it seems
[23:27:36] <pfred1> I will say this you stand a better chance of continued support with emc than anything else
[23:27:37] <Guest576> bob cam and master cam are good
[23:28:04] <Guest576> I hand write most things
[23:28:24] <Guest576> I use the others to do 3D work
[23:28:39] <Guest576> and hand do as much as posable even then
[23:29:06] <pfred1> if you like to hand code then emc is all about that
[23:29:33] <pfred1> heck you can write yourself new kernel routines if it suits your fancy!
[23:29:46] <Guest576> it can be way faster and easier to hand code then to do the drawing move it over and go through all the steps to get code that still may need tweeking
[23:30:33] <Guest576> Gcode is easy
[23:30:49] <pfred1> assembler isn't too difficult
[23:30:57] <Guest576> would not mess with the kernel
[23:31:04] <Guest576> lol
[23:31:09] <pfred1> though most emc stuff seems to be getting written in scripting languages anymore
[23:31:13] <Guest576> I have wrote asm
[23:31:21] <pfred1> python seems pretty big now
[23:31:37] <pfred1> though a while ago it was all about tck/tk
[23:31:42] <Guest576> micro comtrolers
[23:31:48] <pfred1> tcl/tk even
[23:31:49] <Guest576> controlers
[23:32:33] <pfred1> the thing to bear in mind is emc today may not be what emc tomorrow is but how much will mach evolve?
[23:32:43] <Guest576> over 1500 pages of asm code
[23:32:50] <pfred1> though if you love emc today I bet yo ucan keep it forever too
[23:33:17] <Guest576> Mach is doing a major redo
[23:33:24] <Guest576> V4 now
[23:33:41] <Guest576> complete and total redo of code
[23:33:57] <Guest576> nothing of the old code
[23:34:08] <pfred1> worked that well did it?
[23:34:22] <Guest576> lol
[23:34:29] <Guest576> why do you think I am here
[23:34:36] <Guest576> it drives me nuts
[23:34:47] <Guest576> the lathe part suck big time
[23:34:53] <pfred1> yeah emc seems to be pretty solid but of course ther eare always gong to be features to add
[23:35:39] <pfred1> I haven't seen the hardinge twins on for a while now that they both seem to have their machines running but they both seemed happy while they were here
[23:36:21] <pfred1> Guest576 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWuOZutnjTk
[23:37:05] <mozmck> I think it's mostly interfaces that are being written in python.
[23:38:34] <pfred1> mozmck I love stepperconf its a nice touch
[23:38:35] <mozmck> seems like there was some python routine they recently re-made in C to gain speed.
[23:39:03] <mozmck> yes it is.
[23:39:06] <pfred1> thing is maybe mach has some edge on emc now i don't know what i do know is eventually emc will steamroller it
[23:39:17] <pfred1> that is just how open source works
[23:39:38] <pfred1> commercial ventures can't compete
[23:40:37] <mozmck> I'm not sure what edge mach would have over emc, except possibly in ease of configuration for some folks...
[23:41:06] <pfred1> yeah i mean they have to run on Windows that has to be a major disadvantage to overcome right there!
[23:42:03] <pfred1> an OS that has more in common with Mr. magoo than just about anything else i cna think of off hand
[23:42:40] <gene__> Hi guys, everybody healthy I hope. And pfred1, you are being kind,
[23:43:26] <pfred1> gene__ don't get me wrong i love Mr. Magoo I just don't want him doing anything for me critical is all
[23:44:37] <gene__> I have a problem created by the use of backlash comp. I cannot reliably move my zero point of any axis in any direction. It always recalculates the backlash as if its sitting in the center of it.
[23:45:06] <gene__> ROTFLMAO!
[23:45:56] <gene__> Should I be using the touchoff instead of home for this?
[23:46:52] <pfred1> oh check this gadget out! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WCrqqoZkPg&NR=1
[23:47:00] <pfred1> lets see mach run that!
[23:48:48] <gene__> and konqueror isn't showing it to me, darn.
[23:48:58] <Guest576> I am not a mach fan
[23:49:09] <pfred1> gene__ I'm looking at it in seamonkey
[23:49:23] <pfred1> this is better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EYaM4FkASA&NR=1
[23:49:42] <Guest576> just started with it as it seemed easier to start out with it and start cutting
[23:50:30] <pfred1> Guest576 some Linux can be daunting to setup but once its setup it'll just work until the parts rot off your motherboard
[23:53:28] <Guest576> lol
[23:53:34] <Guest576> got to like that
[23:53:42] <pfred1> I'm not kidding
[23:54:15] <Guest576> I want to get going with EMC asap
[23:54:26] <pfred1> I ran my last linux distro for over 6 years until the motherboard decided to blow up then I took the HDD out of that system and ran it in another i built around it
[23:55:15] <pfred1> but the distro was so old that I couldn't easily update it online anymore so I decided to install a new one I still have that partition on this machine though
[23:55:21] <Guest576> that remiands me of a story a friend told me about
[23:55:43] <pfred1> if I wanted ot go throug hthe trouble i could have hand mainteined it forever
[23:55:57] <pfred1> but thats a pain
[23:56:49] <pfred1> you don't have to go far to find people running linux mail servers with 5+ years of uptime on them either
[23:56:50] <gene__> can anyone say when 2.3.5 will be available for 6.06LTS?
[23:57:37] <aystarik> never?
[23:58:14] <aystarik> right now everyone is busy with 10.04/2.4 bundle...
[23:58:15] <gene__> IOW I'll finally have to update this machine then.
[23:58:26] <Guest576> his wife worked at a school, his wife wanted a school web site, so he setup a linex based server for the web site, meny years later, after he had totaly forgot about doing it he was asked to help out with so other things at the school
[23:58:38] <pfred1> gene__ is your /home dir on a separate partition?
[23:58:50] <gene__> no dammit
[23:58:56] <Guest576> he found the server coverd in dust but still working away
[23:59:14] <pfred1> Guest576 oh I've heard of linux boxes getting built into walls
[23:59:24] <pfred1> Guest576 people forgetting about them for years
[23:59:25] <gene__> But it does get backed up every night by amanda running on the masin box in the house;)
[23:59:45] <pfred1> Guest576 then someone will be like what is this one server on the network?
[23:59:53] <gene__> so it wouldn't be a total disaster