#emc | Logs for 2010-03-24

[00:00:04] <pfred1> andypugh so I'd value it at $2 a piece
[00:00:18] <andypugh> There's a lot more than cutters
[00:00:39] <pfred1> yeah I've gotten live centers for that price too :)
[00:01:03] <pfred1> I'm telling you $2 a piece is top price
[00:01:19] <pfred1> and taps aren't even really worth that
[00:02:20] <mikegg> pfredl: thanks for sharing, that power supply is pretty cool.
[00:02:21] <mikegg> time for me to go to the house!
[00:02:21] <pfred1> mikegg yeah no I built a few before i decidedo n that one
[00:02:21] <mikegg> i'm gonna save that schematic
[00:02:25] <pfred1> mikegg yeah its a nice circuit works like its supposed to
[00:02:34] <mikegg> evey now and then I might need to smoke something at 40 v :)
[00:02:48] <mikegg> 12 VDC gets a little boring sometimes
[00:02:50] <pfred1> and you can ramp it up gradually too
[00:03:00] <andypugh> So $700 for the lot?
[00:04:06] <pfred1> andypugh thats if you hand picked each piece as something you could "use"
[00:04:52] <andypugh> Aye, I am saying that it looks like valuable lot at $2 a bit. I wasn't going to bid anything like that high.
[00:05:03] <pfred1> I'd be surprised if yo uever actually used more than say 20% of that group
[00:05:30] <pfred1> so limit yourself to less than 20% of your $700 total estimate
[00:05:46] <pfred1> and then I'd say you got a good deal
[00:06:49] <andypugh> Yeah, that's prety much where I am. Part of my thinking is that a lot of it will suit my dad, or the Motor Club (who have a big old mill with a BT40 spindle)
[00:06:58] <pfred1> I guess $140 for the lot is fair for buyer and seller alike
[00:07:06] <pfred1> a little less would be nicer for the buyer
[00:07:29] <pfred1> if it was me on the spot I'd never offer more than $100
[00:07:59] <pfred1> but ebay is more competitive
[00:08:08] <andypugh> Yeah, but I suspect I have a lot less time and more money than you.
[00:08:43] <andypugh> Which moves the "Value" goalposts.
[00:09:51] <pfred1> andypugh working on your second billion are you?
[00:10:24] <andypugh> No, still working on the first.
[00:11:12] <andypugh> And spending money like I do on bits of machine tool that I don't need I doubt I will get there.
[00:12:10] <pfred1> a deal like you pick through it thwn sell the lot you don't want for close to what you paid for it
[00:12:43] <andypugh> That is what I am thinking, that lot is begging to be broken down and resold. And I expect someone will bid £500 and make a small profit.
[00:13:36] <pfred1> andypugh you'd have died one estate sale I went to an old machinist died and his basement was loaded with machine tooling and i could have picked it all up for $100
[00:14:17] <pfred1> andypugh but I was in the process of moving at the time and didn't feel like carting it all to my new place
[00:15:38] <pfred1> andypugh but every handful of stuff i grabbed the girl his daughter i guess would say give me $3
[00:15:38] <andypugh> It happens, me and my dad ended up clearing a workshop in the same situation, we ended up feeling we had thousands of pounds worth of stuff, but stuff we would never have spent thousands of pounds on.
[00:15:38] <pfred1> andypugh stuff like parallels mikutoyo gauges
[00:16:21] <pfred1> but then i couldn't take the whole mess on I was moving far away
[00:16:56] <pfred1> I bet it all ended up in a dumpster
[00:17:13] <andypugh> On another subject. I fancy putting the ballnut inside the column of my mini-mill. That means milling a slot in the front, and possibly machining out the back for clearance. I wondr how much of the not-very-extensive rigidity that would lose?
[00:19:16] <andypugh> A rotating-nut arrangement would also work, but then the leadscrew ends up poking out the top of the machine.
[00:19:16] <pfred1> I'd go with strength over esthetics its amazing what one can get used to looking at after a while
[00:19:53] <andypugh> I have the leadscrew out the back on an arm at the moment, it rocks the head about and isn't very rigid.
[00:20:42] <pfred1> gas strut counterbalance?
[00:20:53] <andypugh> You can sort of see it here:
[00:20:54] <andypugh> http://picasaweb.google.com/bodgesoc/Gibbs#5403345493251452434
[00:21:53] <pfred1> andypugh that isn't your only Z axis is it?
[00:22:03] <andypugh> When you go from lifting the head to pulling it down to drill/mill it sort of "nods" and a gas strut won't change that
[00:22:25] <MattyMatt> add more slides
[00:22:58] <andypugh> It's a dovetail, that part should be OK. (though I am looking at ways to use a taper gib rather than setscrews)
[00:23:00] <MattyMatt> nice thick steel ones, so they help the rigitidy of the column too
[00:24:19] <andypugh> How do you mean "my only Z"
[00:24:19] <pfred1> andypugh like you can just move the spindle too right?
[00:24:19] <andypugh> When I load the "Lathe" config files the X becomes a Z, and that Z becomes dead...
[00:24:19] <andypugh> No, there is no quill on the mini-mills.
[00:24:54] <pfred1> so when you turn your drill handle the whole head comes down?
[00:25:46] <andypugh> Yes.
[00:25:46] <andypugh> Well, not any more, the handle is on a box on the floor now.
[00:26:12] <pfred1> but if its in a dovetail why is it moving on you?
[00:27:34] <andypugh> I have junked the motor, the handle, the rack and the controller. It now has a 1hp 3-phase motor on top driven by the same VFD as the lathe. The head has been converted to metal gears in an oil bath (rather than plastic gears and a handful of grease) and there is an encoder on the top.
[00:27:41] <pfred1> andypugh but there is no gib under those set screws?
[00:28:30] <andypugh> I think that because of the cantilever loading, if I adjust the gibs tight enough to remove all slack then it binds.
[00:28:30] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[00:28:30] <pfred1> andypugh yeah i know that deal what are you lubing it with?
[00:28:33] <pfred1> andypugh i swear by chainsaw bar oil now for my mill :)
[00:28:39] <andypugh> Yes, there is a metal strip, but I don't like that style of gib, as all the forces go through those three tiny screws.
[00:29:07] <andypugh> I am meant to lube it?
[00:29:07] <pfred1> andypugh give it a shot nice slides
[00:29:16] <andypugh> :-)
[00:29:19] <pfred1> you have to lube metal on metal
[00:29:33] <andypugh> Yeah, I know. It has light machine oil on it.
[00:29:34] <pfred1> andypugh get some chainsaw bar oil and try it you'll love it!
[00:29:54] <pfred1> yeah light oil isn't the same
[00:29:56] <MattyMatt> synthetic whale oil
[00:30:04] <andypugh> Another possibility is that the slide and the dovetail don't actually fit each other.
[00:30:17] <pfred1> andypugh I'm telling you once you get into bar lube you'll never look at oil the same
[00:30:35] <pfred1> andypugh its dirt cheap and works the treat
[00:31:10] <pfred1> andypugh I have a cheap chinese mill and before i used other oils it always slid like crap now its 100% better with bar oil on it
[00:31:20] <MattyMatt> I've got a can of graphite loaded teflon, but all my slides are ballraces so I haven't used it yet
[00:31:26] <andypugh> I am making a tilting head adapter, when I come to fit it I will blue up the slides and scrape them in if required. The lathe slide was scraped in quite well by the maker, but not so that both sides touched at the same time. I suspect a bit of the same on the mill slide.
[00:32:00] <pfred1> andypugh if I was close by I'd pour you a cup full so you could try it out but do go get a bottle and give it a shot
[00:32:14] <andypugh> I get nervous with the combination of ballraces and swarf flying.
[00:32:26] <MattyMatt> heh, chainsaw oil. in every UK high street, not
[00:32:31] <andypugh> I have chainsaw oil, I use it on my motorbike chains.
[00:32:45] <andypugh> They sell it in B&Q
[00:32:46] <pfred1> its sticky right?
[00:32:51] <MattyMatt> ah cool
[00:32:56] <andypugh> Yes. slightly.
[00:33:18] <pfred1> yeah thats tue stuff wipe your dovetails down and paint a film of that on
[00:33:24] <andypugh> 30,000 miles out of the last motorbike chain.
[00:33:38] <pfred1> if you don't like it you can always grease remove it and go back
[00:33:53] <pfred1> but man it is everything here
[00:34:10] <andypugh> I might fit a suds pump soon.
[00:34:41] <pfred1> bar oil is basically way oil under a different moniker
[00:34:49] <andypugh> But I am nervous of it getting in the steppers...
[00:35:01] <MattyMatt> I might try the teflon spray on my M8. the worst that can happen is it'll scrape off
[00:35:11] <pfred1> well it should be better than light oil i mean the stuff is sticky
[00:35:29] <andypugh> And I need to find a way to protect my main leadscrew.
[00:36:09] <andypugh> Has anyone seen those spiral-spring covers for sale anywhere?
[00:36:11] <pfred1> andypugh flexible wire duct?
[00:36:22] <pfred1> andypugh you know the stuff that looks like a slinky with cloth on it?
[00:36:29] <MattyMatt> hoover pipe
[00:36:41] <andypugh> It needs to cope with rather hot bits of metal.
[00:36:55] <MattyMatt> or dryer exhaust pipe, which is wider and compresses more
[00:37:00] <andypugh> Otherwise the Dyson would be looking for a new hose.
[00:37:48] <tom3p> bezier curves... inkscape to blender to gcode http://www.5xj.com/blender/Creating%20NC%20Files.html
[00:37:54] <andypugh> I found someone who would make me spiral spring covers, but they were going to be £50 each.
[00:38:06] <pfred1> stuff sort of like this but with a lazier wire twist and cloth http://www.busytrade.com/common/image.php?file=1444464&x=200&y=200&jpg=
[00:39:02] <MattyMatt> beer cans telescope. split all but the outside one
[00:39:30] <pfred1> andypugh http://www.hellotrade.com/dec-mach-elec-equip/product.html
[00:40:55] <andypugh> MattyMatt: You would need keeper-wires to stop them popping out of each other.
[00:41:00] <andypugh> But it might work.
[00:41:16] <pfred1> andypugh http://www.indiamart.com/shreeji-industries/other-products.html#single-ply-fiberglass-silicone-coated-hose-pipe
[00:41:18] <andypugh> That ducting might also work, if it can take hot metal.
[00:41:40] <pfred1> Temp. Range : -75° to 1200° F & above
[00:42:25] <andypugh> I just saw that... Hmmm
[00:42:25] <pfred1> andypugh just try to blow torch somewheres other than on your CNC machine huh?
[00:42:25] <andypugh> I don't like the colour much :-)
[00:42:25] <pfred1> then get some engine paint
[00:42:40] <andypugh> Swarf comes off of a lathe pretty hot at times.
[00:42:46] <MattyMatt> http://www.ductstore.co.uk/acatalog/Flexible___Semi-rigid_Ducts.html?gclid=CN-_wI-T0KACFSU8lAodTizC0g
[00:43:00] <pfred1> I think the red is sorta hot
[00:43:03] <MattyMatt> one looks too flimsy, the other looks too stiff
[00:43:15] <andypugh> I need to see what the compressed length needs to be. Telscopic tubing might work.
[00:44:16] <MattyMatt> if you can spin or roll them larger you won't have to split them
[00:44:34] <pfred1> if it were me I'd lather the lead up with some bar oil and let the chips fall where they may!
[00:46:48] <andypugh> There are wipers, so I don't think anything has got into the ballnut yet, but it is just a matter of time, especially if I go for flood coolant.
[00:47:23] <pfred1> can't rig up any kind of a shield huh?
[00:47:27] <MattyMatt> can you pump oil into the ballnut?
[00:47:43] <pfred1> that's how we always did it with sheet metal shields to keep chips contained somewhat
[00:47:47] <MattyMatt> positive pressure, permanent lube
[00:47:59] <pfred1> and shiny shoes too!
[00:48:02] <andypugh> I keep thinking of shields, but they will get in the way.
[00:48:59] <andypugh> The cross-slide shield is cunning, it is a shim strip that goes up and over the ballnut in a tunnel.
[00:49:16] <MattyMatt> my X does that
[00:49:38] <pfred1> my ex was rather cunning herself ...
[00:49:39] <MattyMatt> I haven't even looked inside yet
[00:50:25] <andypugh> If I had planned far enough ahead I would have had the longitudinal ballnut mounted up from underneath then a full-length tube with a split in the bottom would have been an option.
[00:50:31] <MattyMatt> mostly because I'm scared the shim will spring out
[00:50:48] <pfred1> I hate springs!
[00:51:08] <andypugh> Anyway, time to attempt sleep.
[00:51:14] <pfred1> nite
[00:51:28] <pfred1> time here to attempt to get my parallel port card going
[00:51:44] <MattyMatt> I should get to bed. first cut tomorrow
[00:51:59] <MattyMatt> even though I said that yesterday
[00:53:02] <MattyMatt> I have to demo it cutting air with no tool, as there's no guard and I've only got one pair of specs
[01:02:22] <MattyMatt> tom3p: nice link. that'll help a lot
[01:19:52] <mikegg_home> anyone familiar with Okuma LC 10 lathes ?
[01:20:39] <mikegg_home> found one on craigslist for $1000 in my area
[01:24:02] <PCW> careful pfred, have you seen the "no springs" movie?
[01:24:17] <pfred1> PCW no cannot say as i have
[01:25:18] <PCW> I think it in the prelinger archive
[01:31:06] <tlab> http://britneyspears.ac/lasers.htm
[01:31:37] <tlab> that blows my mind
[01:33:04] <Jymmm> No, that just blows
[01:46:52] <GonMD> someone knocked out all cell, landline and internet for the entire day for my town :|
[01:56:34] <Jymmm> GonMD: you're just lucky I didn't do it for a week!
[01:56:52] <GonMD> yea yea :p
[01:57:40] <GonMD> i started pulling an old printer apart to start a 3d printer hack
[01:58:23] <GonMD> i dont think this printer will work out though. pretty crappy design
[01:58:56] <Jymmm> Well, rip apart 3D printer and make a good designed printer from it.
[01:59:31] <GonMD> there is actually a zcorp 400 on fleabay for 3500
[01:59:37] <GonMD> id snap that up if i had a job
[02:06:55] <pfred1> oh snap!
[02:07:54] <pfred1> GonMD I hear what you want is commercial copiers to gut for parts
[02:08:12] <GonMD> yeah, actually my church is getting rid of a big ass style printer
[02:08:13] <Jymmm> not really
[02:08:18] <GonMD> so im getting that one
[02:08:24] <pfred1> GonMD look in the yellow pages for commercial copier leasing then pay the back of their store a visit after hours
[02:08:51] <GonMD> dumpster diving eh
[02:08:54] <GonMD> hadnt though of that
[02:08:59] <pfred1> be warned those machines can weigh almost a half a ton though!
[02:09:00] <Jymmm> Just put up a CL ad offering copier recycling and pickup for free.
[02:09:21] <Jymmm> and they ARE heavy
[02:09:21] <pfred1> but they got rad steppers and linears and timing belts etc in them
[02:09:33] <GonMD> ill look into it
[02:09:50] <GonMD> gonna see what the church printer turns up tho
[02:09:57] <pfred1> like 282 oz/in unipolar double stacks and stuff
[02:10:11] <Jymmm> doubtful
[02:10:24] <Jymmm> like 20 ohm crap
[02:10:27] <pfred1> Jymmm you didn't read the same cnczone thread I did
[02:11:14] <pfred1> it looked to me if you could get a steady enough supply you could full time sell on ebay and you wouldn't NEED a job!
[02:11:46] <GonMD> what
[02:11:49] <GonMD> just selling parts ?
[02:12:01] <pfred1> you seen what stuff goes for on ebay?
[02:12:39] <pfred1> a beefy stepper motor could net you like $30-$40
[02:12:41] <GonMD> ill look into it. unfortuneately, i dont live in a big city, so id have to travel and then haul everything back to my place
[02:13:15] <pfred1> timing cogs belts linear slides it all sells
[02:13:34] <GonMD> yeah. if there is one lesson ive taken from WoW, its sell everything :p
[02:14:03] <GonMD> no matter what it is. if its free pickup, then sell it
[02:14:07] <pfred1> heck I'd be stripping out the stepper driver ICs and selling them too
[02:14:20] <pfred1> but i have the equipment to pull ICs
[02:15:03] <GonMD> what id really like to dev is a homebrew DMLS
[02:15:07] <pfred1> its sick just what you have to pay for a heatsink if you have to buy one
[02:15:19] <Valen> I want one of these http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/products/Processors/productdetail.aspx?sku=A3336421 but it comes from dell which really takes the edge off for me
[02:15:23] <pfred1> whats a DML?
[02:15:39] <GonMD> Direct Metal Laser Sinter
[02:15:39] <GonMD> :D
[02:16:31] <pfred1> GonMD I bet not too many know off the tops of their heads just what that acronym means
[02:17:14] <pfred1> phew i just had a scare over here I put in that parallel blard and the system didn't boot with it in it
[02:17:22] <pfred1> do I dare put it back in?
[02:17:42] <pfred1> I'm pretty pissed off if the damned board stops the machine from booting up
[02:17:45] <Valen> depends on if its the right thing lol
[02:18:31] <pfred1> 2 Ports parallel PCI Card is what the box says
[02:18:46] <Valen> have any jumpers on it or the like?
[02:19:06] <pfred1> its PCI
[02:19:21] <Valen> doesn't mean it has no jumpers or dip switches
[02:19:39] <pfred1> ah yeah it pretty much does
[02:19:41] <Valen> if the address conflicts with the onboard parallell port it could cause weird stuff
[02:19:56] <pfred1> hmm
[02:20:17] <pfred1> well let me give it another go and if it doesn't work I'll disable the onboard in the bios
[02:20:24] <Valen> http://www.winmark.com/products/download/4056/PCI_Installation.pdf
[02:20:30] <Valen> pci card with dip switches
[02:24:32] <pfred1> nice but this is the card i have: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815166007
[02:24:39] <pfred1> and for $15 you don't get no switches!
[02:25:11] <pfred1> now i got dropped to a grub menu
[02:25:14] <Valen> PnP might set the addresses for you automagically
[02:25:19] <Valen> well thats most of the way there
[02:25:31] <pfred1> my machine really doesn't like this frigging card!
[02:25:46] <Valen> if you are getting grub it means the whole machine is working
[02:25:58] <Valen> are you getting an error?
[02:30:13] <pfred1> going into the bios and disabling everything I figured i could live without has worked so far
[02:31:06] <pfred1> I have to figure out how to change the resolution of my login screen on my EMC machine
[02:31:27] <pfred1> ever since i changed the desktop resolution the login is messed up
[02:31:58] <pfred1> and it doesn't virtual screen scroll over to where the login is either
[02:32:22] <pfred1> you see like the top left hand corner of the login screen and have to type blind in order to login
[02:35:17] <Valen> I'd make it autologin myself
[02:36:09] <pfred1> logging in doesn't bother me I'm used to it but not being able to see logging in is rather annoying to me
[02:36:23] <Valen> see, autologin solves the problem ;->
[02:36:30] <Valen> we did that on ours
[02:37:45] <Valen> probably easier than mucking with gdm resolution
[02:40:22] <pfred1> it seems there may be no defined Modelines in xorg.conf
[02:41:08] <Valen> new xorgs dont use modelines as a rule
[02:41:12] <Valen> its all done with edid
[02:41:23] <Valen> though 8.04 is pretty old
[02:43:05] <pfred1> this monitor does not do edid
[02:43:21] <pfred1> its pretty old too
[02:43:22] <Valen> made in 1923 huh
[02:43:32] <pfred1> 1995 or 97 or something
[02:44:43] <Valen> http://www.watchingthenet.com/how-to-enable-automati-logon-in-ubuntu-or-kubuntu.html is probably easier still ;->
[02:59:39] <pfred1> this fixed it Option "PreferredMode" "1280x1024"
[03:02:06] <pfred1> Linux *IS* user friendly its just choosy about who its friends are ...
[03:03:11] <GonMD> too true
[03:04:47] <pfred1> OK now to see what is up with that cockamamy port card
[04:36:44] <TD--Linux> I hate ubunt u:(
[04:37:07] <TD--Linux> running 8.04 right now
[04:37:12] <TD--Linux> TD--Linux is now known as TD-Linux
[04:37:16] <TD-Linux> kubuntu that is
[04:37:42] <TD-Linux> packaging is generally poor, and upgrading is unreliable at best... had much better luck with fedora so far
[04:38:29] <Valen> are you having a specific problem or are you just whining?
[04:39:52] <elmo40> can a computer have only one parallel port?
[04:40:53] <Valen> it can have multiple
[04:42:06] <elmo40> is there a way to control two cnc mills at the same time? ;)
[04:42:23] <elmo40> or, robot for pick and place ofparts and the cnc to machine them?
[04:43:01] <elmo40> should make it easier to communicate that a part is done... but i guess two computers would be more efficient.
[04:52:31] <GonMD> two computers means youll have to have a way to time the operations
[04:54:46] <elmo40> no timing required. 'do THIS when THAT occurs'.
[04:54:49] <elmo40> if then stuff
[04:54:56] <elmo40> if this switch is on, go remove part
[04:55:04] <elmo40> so, no timing required.
[04:55:14] <GonMD> true
[04:57:51] <Valen> use ladder and some IO to communicate?
[04:59:18] <elmo40> would EMC turn on a switch when a program is done? or initiate a 'subprogram' that could call the robot?
[04:59:23] <Valen> provided you have less than 9 axies you could run it all off one computer with EMC
[04:59:44] <elmo40> if i had two parallel ports i could have my 4-axis cnc and 4 to 5 axis robot doing the pick and place.
[04:59:51] <Valen> the whole thing would be one big g code thing
[05:00:02] <elmo40> Valen: not really
[05:00:07] <Valen> well it would
[05:00:10] <elmo40> a couple smaller ones
[05:00:15] <elmo40> sub program
[05:00:17] <elmo40> s
[05:00:19] <Valen> same diff
[05:00:27] <elmo40> one to pick fresh material
[05:00:33] <elmo40> one to remove completed
[05:00:36] <elmo40> one to run cnc
[05:00:40] <elmo40> one to call robot
[05:00:42] <elmo40> just a few
[05:00:54] <Valen> your just going to have xyza as mill axies and bcde as robot axies
[05:01:09] <elmo40> b
[05:01:15] <Valen> I dont think you will be able to use axis as the front end without some tweaking though
[05:01:25] <elmo40> but if i have 2 parallel cards, could i have x1 and x2?
[05:01:33] <elmo40> ya, maybe
[05:01:38] <Valen> I don't think so
[05:01:41] <elmo40> can there be multiple instances of them?
[05:01:59] <Valen> there can be but they have to be linked, like a dual motor drive gantry or something
[05:02:07] <Valen> an axis defines one thing
[05:02:20] <elmo40> have one setup for parport0, other for parport1?
[05:02:22] <Valen> there is no need to have multiple instances anyway
[05:02:29] <elmo40> but ya, one would have to 'tell' the other that it is done
[05:02:32] <Valen> no its a one emc one machine thing
[05:02:36] <elmo40> ok
[05:02:50] <elmo40> maybe have Axis work like Firefox, tabbing :P
[05:03:01] <elmo40> each tab is another machine
[05:03:03] <Valen> no you write a gcode file that runs the part load using the arm, then the other one to run the job and then a 3rd to unload the part
[05:03:16] <Valen> put all those into one program
[05:03:43] <elmo40> but only abcdexyz would be used. if i have a 6-axis robot and 4-axis cnc i cant do it.
[05:03:54] <Valen> nope
[05:03:57] <elmo40> k
[05:04:09] <elmo40> Current Track: '8 chevelle - forfeit (wonder_what's_next)'
[05:04:10] <Valen> a 6 axis arm to load a part seems excessive to me though anyway
[05:04:26] <elmo40> true
[05:04:42] <elmo40> was only a possible scenario
[05:04:48] <GonMD> hey, theres no kill like overkill
[05:04:52] <elmo40> :)
[05:05:06] <elmo40> most are 5, that i have worked with.
[05:05:10] <GonMD> automation is awesome :P
[05:05:16] <elmo40> 5th being the 'hand' swivels
[05:05:27] <Valen> I don't know the specifics but I believe you can use classic ladder or some such and some IO lines to make hold and go signals
[05:05:29] <Valen> http://store.schlockmercenary.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=P-R37
[05:07:38] <GonMD> ive decided that, im going to start a hackerspace in my town. and the ultimate goal will to be making DMLS printed power exo suit :p
[05:07:49] <elmo40> any way to communicate with an allen bradly unit?
[05:07:58] <Valen> i have one of them
[05:08:02] <Valen> on phone brb
[05:10:29] <elmo40> a little expensive? http://qurl.org/px0
[05:10:36] <elmo40> depending on the specs, anyways ;)
[05:11:00] <GonMD> wow
[05:11:05] <GonMD> pricey buggers
[05:11:07] <elmo40> i know, eh?
[05:11:14] <elmo40> would make a nice X-axis!
[05:11:28] <Valen> see our vid elmo?
[05:11:30] <elmo40> dont know if that is for two or one
[05:11:31] <GonMD> i paid about that much for my complete cnc router
[05:11:37] <elmo40> Valen: nope
[05:12:03] <Valen> http://www.youtube.com/user/zyeborm?feature=mhw4#p/a/u/1/g2N910jNOnE
[05:17:44] <Valen> $35 ;->
[05:20:13] <Valen> elmo40: thats an allen bradley setup
[05:20:34] <Valen> I'm just driving it off a serial port at the moment
[05:21:04] <Valen> but i'm thinking of running it as a stepper
[05:21:06] <Valen> step + dir
[05:21:36] <elmo40> cant watch that atm... firefox is borked, along with a million other things :P
[05:21:47] <Valen> we got ours from a scrapyard ;->
[05:23:43] <elmo40> lucky
[05:40:07] <DaViruz> what a nice compact harmonic drive
[06:59:10] <Valen> yeah chearing on that one
[06:59:16] <Valen> hope its up to the job
[08:02:32] <anonimasu> so, no clue about my problem :S
[08:30:15] <alex_mobile> Anonimasu: what problem?
[08:34:43] <anonimasu> http://www.io23.net/ul/files/error.txt
[08:34:59] <anonimasu> Can not find -sec EMC -var NML_FILE -num 1
[08:34:59] <anonimasu> insmod: error inserting
[08:34:59] <anonimasu> '/usr/realtime-2.6.24-16-rtai/modules/emc2/hm2_7i43.ko': -1 No such
[08:34:59] <anonimasu> device
[08:51:03] <alex_mobile> That usually means the card was not detected.
[08:51:28] <alex_mobile> Check dmesg
[09:09:57] <anonimasu> it says something about parport mode 4
[09:16:48] <anonimasu> the error I get is "linux parport does not support mode 4"
[09:25:18] <piasdom> g'mornin all
[09:32:34] <Valen> it should be saying something about the device you are trying to insmod
[09:55:47] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[11:31:57] <anonimasu> what the hell one of the 7i43 is dead now :S
[11:33:50] <anonimasu> nothing showing up...
[11:35:24] <anonimasu> not even leds
[11:42:07] <MattyMatt> * MattyMatt points at psu lead and hisses
[11:50:50] <Valen> heh sucky
[11:54:40] <MattyMatt> I've picked the day when there's no cheap packs of 1/8" shank mills on ebay. TC burrs may be better tho
[12:51:37] <skunkworks> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824254043&Tpk=28%20hanns-g
[12:58:58] <JT-Dev> holy cow that is big
[13:06:51] <cradek> ugh, still only 1200 lines
[13:07:12] <cradek> the size is useless if there aren't more pixels
[13:09:24] <skunkworks> unless you sit 10ft away.. ;)
[13:10:01] <cradek> dude, get your glasses fixed :-)
[13:17:34] <skunkworks> heh
[13:18:13] <cradek> do you know what an msi installer is?
[13:20:01] <skunkworks> one of microsofts installers.
[13:21:00] <skunkworks> you get a file that is whatever.msi and microsoft knows that it is an installation file and how to unpack-install it.
[13:21:27] <cradek> oh ok, thanks
[13:21:32] <skunkworks> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Installer
[13:22:28] <cradek> * cradek 's eyes cross
[13:22:32] <skunkworks> heh
[13:22:43] <skunkworks> microsoft-ease.
[13:25:45] <SWPadnos> http://www.amazon.com/IBM-T221-22-2-3840x2400-Monitor/dp/B00006HS5R
[13:25:50] <SWPadnos> higher resolution :)
[13:26:02] <skunkworks> smaller.
[13:26:05] <skunkworks> ;)
[13:26:14] <SWPadnos> much much higher resolution ;)
[13:26:41] <skunkworks> quite a bit smaller.
[13:26:45] <skunkworks> ;)
[13:26:46] <SWPadnos> yep
[13:26:49] <skunkworks> heh
[13:27:04] <SWPadnos> but you can't see individual pixels without a reasonably good magnifier
[13:27:24] <SWPadnos> you should see Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory on it :)
[13:27:32] <SWPadnos> uh. or CAD models
[13:30:47] <SWPadnos> I should get that computer running again
[13:32:44] <SWPadnos> the last new ones for sale: http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-T221-22-2-3840x2400-LCD-Monitor_W0QQitemZ150387862548QQcmdZViewItemQQptZComputer_Monitors?hash=item2303d0ac14
[13:32:46] <SWPadnos> sigh
[13:45:31] <skunkworks> what video card do you use?
[13:49:20] <SWPadnos> there's a Quadro FX3500 in that machine
[13:50:42] <SWPadnos> which is a bit slower than a $100 card you could buy today (which would also have 4x the memory on it)
[13:58:15] <SWPadnos> correction. a $50 card
[13:59:58] <MattyMatt> that monitor was $25k new. I remember drooling at the time, ~2001
[14:00:25] <SWPadnos> I don't remember them that high. I think when I first saw them they were only $17k :)
[14:00:43] <SWPadnos> I have the Viewsonic version (the VP-2290b)
[14:01:01] <SWPadnos> (those were only $7k new - a steal)
[14:03:27] <alex_mobile> heh
[14:03:48] <MattyMatt> 2560x1920 would do me now, as it's the most you can get down one HDMI
[14:04:07] <MattyMatt> DVI, whatever I mean
[14:04:21] <SWPadnos> you can go as high as you want, but refresh rate has to go down to do it
[14:04:35] <SWPadnos> (though I think there's a 4k pixel limit for width or some such)
[14:05:03] <MattyMatt> IIRC, you needed 2x dual head matrox to run that T221
[14:05:38] <SWPadnos> that's ideal, and necessary if you want the full 48 Hz refresh rate (41 Hz on the Viewsonic)
[14:05:58] <SWPadnos> but you can drive it with a single, single-link DVI (it doesn't have dual-link inputs) at 13 Hz
[14:06:35] <MattyMatt> lovely :) my motto is usually "resolution is everything" but 13Hz would make me pause
[14:06:40] <SWPadnos> yeah
[14:06:56] <SWPadnos> I think I have mine at 30 Hz, which is bearable
[14:07:22] <SWPadnos> I'd need to add another card to get it to 41 Hz, and I actually had another FX 3500 to do it with at one point
[14:07:42] <MattyMatt> I gotta fix my CRTs if I can. all 3 died within 6 months of each other, mostly because I was running them too high
[14:07:46] <SWPadnos> heh
[14:08:06] <MattyMatt> so what if it's fuzzy, it's 2k x 1.5k
[14:08:07] <SWPadnos> I had 3 CRTs on this machine for quite a while (with a Matrox Parhelia)
[14:08:42] <SWPadnos> but then both the side monitors died within a few months of each other (cheap NEC, instead of the nice NEC in the middle)
[14:08:49] <MattyMatt> g400 couldn't do 2x 1600x1200, which spoiled my plans
[14:09:06] <SWPadnos> so now I have an open-frame LCD on the left, a nice CRT in the middle, and a touchscreen LCD on the right :)
[14:09:22] <SWPadnos> huh. I thought it could
[14:09:26] <SWPadnos> maybe that was the G450
[14:09:37] <MattyMatt> nope 450 and 800 could
[14:09:50] <MattyMatt> 400 was limited to 2k combined
[14:10:01] <SWPadnos> ah, ok
[14:11:09] <MattyMatt> do you no if newer non-parhelia have the 30 bit mode?
[14:11:16] <MattyMatt> ^know
[14:11:39] <SWPadnos> yes, there are "deep color" chips from both ATI and NVidia
[14:11:42] <SWPadnos> I don't know which ones though
[14:12:12] <SWPadnos> I think more or less any of the recent crop have it, but now it's a matter of whether the monitor supports it on the DVI/HDMI inputs
[14:12:51] <alex_mobile> Do you actually see a difference from 30 bit?
[14:13:28] <MattyMatt> I made test images which showed banding at 24 bit
[14:14:00] <SWPadnos> there is a clear difference when you see them side by side, but in general use it's less noticeable
[14:14:07] <MattyMatt> on a crt on the g44, so it was defo proper 24 bit
[14:14:19] <MattyMatt> ^g400
[14:14:22] <SWPadnos> except on things like a color/gray smooth transition, where you'll see banding
[14:14:38] <MattyMatt> light/mid blues are most noticable
[14:14:57] <SWPadnos> I was surprised to see the difference between an Eizo ColorEdge LCD and an Apple cinema monitor
[14:15:24] <SWPadnos> the ColorEdge was far far better, looking at the same window being dragged between monitors
[14:16:54] <MattyMatt> I wouldn't want a glossy screen with a smoked filter. I had one of them in 1979
[14:17:42] <MattyMatt> that's style over substance
[14:18:44] <SWPadnos> I'm not sure I've seen a smoked filter on a glossy screen (with an LCD anyway)
[14:19:11] <MattyMatt> I thought that's what Apple ones were like
[14:19:25] <SWPadnos> the monitors for the Apple II?
[14:19:42] <SWPadnos> oh, the mac monitors
[14:19:49] <MattyMatt> no the new macbooks etc, and all imac since the anglepoise one
[14:19:56] <SWPadnos> no, I don't think they're like that
[14:20:44] <MattyMatt> it's supposed to enhance colour and contrast, at the expense of horrible glare
[14:21:11] <SWPadnos> you're supposed to be in a darkened room though :)
[14:24:02] <alex_mobile> With your eyes shut
[14:24:38] <MattyMatt> that's a good test for my mill, drilling a braille screen
[14:25:01] <SWPadnos> actually, you're not supposed to be looking at what's on the screen. you're supposed to admire the design of the computer itself, and fondle the clean surface of the mouse
[14:31:58] <MattyMatt> and ironicallt the iphone screen doesn't work with cotton gloves on
[14:34:36] <MattyMatt> I wonder if that nano-silver stuff would help. nice little opportunity there
[15:02:07] <MrSunshine> can i make out the polarity of a motor using just 1 probe on an oscilloscope ?
[15:09:00] <aa-danimal-shop> good morning
[15:09:07] <JT-Work> hi Dan
[16:03:45] <aa-danimal-shop> hi John
[16:03:48] <aa-danimal-shop> how goes it
[16:04:38] <frallzor> * frallzor pretends to be John
[16:04:46] <frallzor> its good, its aaaaaall good
[16:04:56] <frallzor> ya dig?
[16:05:05] <aa-danimal-shop> not convincing at all
[16:05:47] <aa-danimal-shop> morning frallzor
[16:06:01] <PCW_> PCW_ is now known as PCW
[16:08:24] <JT-Work> going better today... I've not ruined any parts yet :)
[16:09:19] <aa-danimal-shop> lol
[16:09:27] <aa-danimal-shop> how'd you ruin a monitor?
[16:09:36] <JT-Work> I got the last o-rings and bits replaced in the turret last night and it moves smartly now
[16:09:55] <JT-Work> it just died
[16:10:49] <JT-Work> gotta do the windoz thing and size 10 1/5 boot this computer brb
[16:14:14] <Jymmm> wth did he just say?
[16:14:34] <aa-danimal-shop> reboot
[16:14:56] <aa-danimal-shop> in a violent manner
[16:19:52] <PCW_> PCW_ is now known as PCW
[16:23:01] <frallzor> did I brag about progress to you aa-danimal-shop? :P
[16:26:45] <Jymmm> * Jymmm chuckles at frallzor
[16:31:55] <atmega_> any mesa card users around?
[16:32:18] <atmega_> atmega_ is now known as atmega
[16:32:29] <cradek> go ahead and ask your real question...
[16:32:59] <atmega> heh... what are the IO connectors? do you need one of their daughterboards, or some sort of terminal block?
[16:33:16] <cradek> you can do either
[16:33:41] <cradek> for IO it's best to have some isolation - you can use their daughtercards or something like opto22
[16:34:35] <atmega> how do you connect it to the p-port (7I43)
[16:35:11] <aa-danimal-shop> frallzor, last i heard you had the y mounted
[16:35:20] <aa-danimal-shop> is it making chips yet?
[16:35:39] <skunkworks> the printer port to mesa connection isn't isolated.. You would want the isolation between the mesa card and machine bits.
[16:35:54] <cradek> yes
[16:36:12] <atmega> I meant what cable is needed.
[16:36:20] <cradek> I think you can just use IDC for the parport hookup you'll get the right wiring
[16:36:52] <cradek> I'd be surprised if mesa didn't sell the cable with the right connectors already on it...?
[16:37:44] <atmega> their website isn't so hot.
[16:38:07] <SWPadnos> their website seems to be down at the moment (from here at least)
[16:38:14] <cradek> wfm
[16:38:20] <SWPadnos> ah, it's back
[16:38:40] <frallzor> aa-danimal-shop noope :P
[16:38:43] <frallzor> no chips
[16:38:56] <frallzor> but all mechanical 99% done =)
[16:39:37] <Jymmm> * Jymmm poisons SWPadnos named some more!
[16:39:43] <cradek> but yeah, what you say about their website is true... mainly my complaints are it's hard to tell what products work together, and what they cost
[16:39:50] <PCW_> PCW_ is now known as PCW
[16:40:10] <cradek> hi PCW
[16:40:17] <SWPadnos> I don't see a parallel cable in the price list (PDF version)
[16:40:29] <atmega> I don't see any cables on their website
[16:40:37] <SWPadnos> they're in the price list
[16:40:51] <SWPadnos> more in the PDF version than in the HTML version
[16:40:53] <cradek> there's an "adapters, and cables" section but there are no cables there...
[16:41:58] <Jymmm> and there's a section of cards that aren't in the price list =)
[16:42:00] <SWPadnos> "generic adaptor cables and accessories"
[16:42:50] <SWPadnos> ok, there are a few 26 pin cables, but they're to pin headers only, no DB25
[16:44:54] <skunkworks> this seems like a bad location to post this.. ;) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mach1mach2cnc/message/118681
[16:45:18] <atmega> page 4 and 6 seem duplicated with different dates.
[16:49:28] <SWPadnos> hah. too funny: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj-x9ygQEGA
[16:50:05] <atmega> so even with one of their isolotion daughterboards, you still need another cable and a terminal block
[16:56:23] <JT-Work> atmega: get the TA versions of the daughter cards
[16:59:30] <JT-Work> cradek: are you using your collet closer on your Hardinge?
[16:59:36] <cradek> yeah
[17:00:05] <JT-Work> how is your valve set up on all the time when closed or center off?
[17:00:31] <JT-Work> mine seems to only need air for the open or close cycle but not all the time
[17:00:35] <PCW_> PCW_ is now known as PCW
[17:01:09] <cradek> yeah I have mine set up to give air for just a few seconds to move the valve
[17:01:17] <JT-Work> ok
[17:15:24] <cradek> SWPadnos: I had seen that before, but it was funny to watch again. it's pretty brilliant.
[17:15:41] <SWPadnos> yeah
[17:15:55] <SWPadnos> the ones for "Take On Me" and "White Wedding" are pretty good too
[17:16:13] <cradek> you can't make me watch youtube for hours, you can't you can't you can't
[17:16:24] <SWPadnos> heh
[17:17:04] <JT-Work> cradek: McMaster-Carr has all the quad rings and o-rings for the turret and collet closer too
[17:17:14] <cradek> wow
[17:17:39] <cradek> I need to do something about my part chute - it doesn't work reliably - I think it might be the control solenoid but I'm not sure.
[17:18:00] <cradek> on the other hand, I unbolted it and stuck a wire basket under where the parts fall, and that works fine
[17:18:00] <JT-Work> the small ones I have 99 left and the small quad rings 23 left if you need a few
[17:18:20] <JT-Work> I don't have a parts chute...
[17:18:48] <cradek> I think it's the same control solenoid the cutoff slide uses
[17:18:56] <Jymmm> * Jymmm read that as "JT-Work: I don't have a parachute"
[17:19:05] <cradek> you have extra o rings for that?
[17:19:18] <cradek> can you fax me some?
[17:19:23] <JT-Work> the solenoid?
[17:19:28] <cradek> yeah
[17:19:43] <JT-Work> if it is Mac I can get you a rebuild kit for it from my Mac Buddy
[17:19:51] <Jymmm> cradek: I can fax you a chicken, if that helps
[17:20:24] <JT-Work> have you had your turret apart?
[17:20:30] <cradek> JT-Work: maybe I should send you a picture of it - I don't know anything about air stuff :-/
[17:20:44] <cradek> nope, only had the middle cover off to figure out the sensor
[17:20:46] <JT-Work> yea with the model numbers if you can
[17:21:15] <JT-Work> it's real easy to take apart once you know how to replace all the o-rings and quad rings
[17:21:41] <Jymmm> quad?
[17:21:42] <cradek> cool
[17:22:11] <JT-Work> on mine there is a screw in cover about 2" in diameter and you unscrew that then take off the nut below it
[17:22:34] <JT-Work> then lift the top and mid section off
[17:22:38] <Jymmm> JT-Work: 2" diameter screw?!
[17:22:53] <Jymmm> JT-Work: wth do you have?!
[17:23:25] <JT-Work> then pull out the two pins with the 8-32 thread in them and unbolt and lift off the top of the cylinder and a puff of air and the piston is out
[17:23:38] <JT-Work> change all the o-rings and reverse
[17:23:52] <JT-Work> Jymmm: yes
[17:24:15] <Jymmm> JT-Work: I hope that's just the head of it.
[17:24:23] <JT-Work> I took some pictures of the collet closer while it is apart
[17:24:58] <cradek> JT-Work: you think it would spin more reliably? I should do it, if so. It really drags for a while if it's been sitting.
[17:25:16] <JT-Work> oh yea it is much faster and consistent now
[17:25:33] <JT-Work> pops right up and goes to spinning
[17:25:54] <JT-Work> and no more air leaks from the turret
[17:26:32] <cradek> would it be easy for you to email me the parts list for the turret rebuild?
[17:26:48] <JT-Work> oh and there is a little o-ring between the last part you take off and the main part that was missing on mine
[17:27:25] <JT-Work> yea, no problem I can snail mail you some of the small quad rings and the little o-ring
[17:27:34] <cradek> sweet
[17:28:00] <cradek> "just send a self-addressed stamped envelope..."
[17:28:18] <cradek> haha, remember the pre-internet world?
[17:28:31] <JT-Work> I'll take it back off and take some pics of how it comes apart
[17:28:41] <JT-Work> yes, I'm that old :)
[17:28:46] <cradek> heh, me too
[17:29:15] <GonMD> hah, snail mail
[17:29:20] <GonMD> you guys are old :P
[17:29:41] <cradek> GonMD: still can't email O rings...
[17:30:09] <GonMD> yeah, but what kind of a hacker would you be if you didnt just make a machine to make them yourself
[17:34:42] <alex_joni> skunkworks: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mach1mach2cnc/message/118685
[17:34:57] <alex_joni> "join there online"
[17:35:05] <alex_joni> * alex_joni snickers
[17:37:56] <skunkworks> even I know that is wrong.. :)
[17:39:56] <cradek> never mind 'online news group'
[17:44:16] <alex_joni> cradek: yeah, I let that one slip
[17:49:03] <aa-danimal-shop> JT-Hardinge, good to know... thanks for the tip.
[17:49:20] <aa-danimal-shop> although my turret still works pretty well, amazingly
[17:49:40] <aa-danimal-shop> +
[17:54:00] <alex_joni> omfg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5g6AJbQKfo&feature=player_embedded
[17:56:37] <frallzor> any metric guys around? =)
[17:57:16] <alex_joni> yeah
[17:57:22] <frallzor> goodie
[17:57:43] <frallzor> 2mm material, tap it to M6, will it hold around 1.5kg with 6 screws?
[17:57:54] <alex_joni> sure
[17:57:56] <alex_joni> even with one
[17:58:08] <frallzor> greath, thanks =)
[17:58:08] <cradek> not if the material is jello
[17:58:11] <alex_joni> M6x1mm is the regular screw iirc
[17:58:13] <frallzor> steel =)
[17:58:19] <alex_joni> that means 1mm pitch
[17:58:22] <frallzor> yeah 1mm pitch
[17:58:37] <alex_joni> usually 3 turns of a screw hold 85% of the full screw rating
[17:58:39] <frallzor> but thats all good then, off I go to tap!
[17:58:56] <alex_joni> so 2 turns should hold about 40% maybe
[17:59:04] <frallzor> ah yes, thens it all good now
[17:59:08] <frallzor> * -s
[17:59:12] <alex_joni> a M6 screw will probably hold 40-60kg in steel
[18:02:11] <SWPadnos> I have determined that it is difficult to stop eating Fritos
[18:02:29] <SWPadnos> more so if you also have sour cream on hand
[18:04:02] <alex_joni> heh
[18:04:19] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: seen that nice truck driver?
[18:04:27] <SWPadnos> no
[18:04:30] <alex_joni> hmm.. is wikipedia down?
[18:04:30] <SWPadnos> never
[18:04:40] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5g6AJbQKfo
[18:05:12] <SWPadnos> damn
[18:05:50] <alex_joni> save on fuel, spend on tires
[18:05:57] <alex_joni> and underpants
[18:05:58] <SWPadnos> and body work
[18:36:12] <JT-Work> aa-danimal-shop: hey Dan
[18:36:35] <JT-Work> MSC salesman and manager was visiting
[18:37:55] <JT-Work> they found me a chuck for the Hardinge gave me 15% discount and shipped it for free!
[18:42:19] <frallzor> how odd, was more like 4mm, that was nice
[18:42:28] <frallzor> could use my M8s instead
[18:43:33] <atmega> http://www.tampadiving.com/sections/diving/cave_systems/system.asp?ID=42&region=US
[18:43:36] <atmega> <urk>
[18:47:14] <alex_joni> frallzor: 4mm & M8 should hold a shitload
[18:47:26] <alex_joni> from an elephant herd even
[18:54:44] <aa-danimal-shop> JT-Hardinge, nice!
[19:20:08] <JT-Work> yep
[19:22:00] <andypugh> archivist: Did you see this when you went to look at the Beichle?
[19:22:01] <andypugh> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Whale-Oil_W0QQitemZ320505663765
[19:22:19] <archivist> yes
[19:22:52] <andypugh> I guess the whale would have died by natural causes by now anyway. We had some drums of it when I was at Leeds doing metallurgy, nothing else works quite the same.
[19:23:39] <andypugh> (though the process I worked on involved quenching from red-hot into molten sodium hydroxide)
[19:24:15] <archivist> but the container put me off a bit
[19:24:32] <andypugh> ?
[19:24:43] <archivist> dustbin
[19:24:52] <andypugh> Hard to get home without spilling it in the car...
[19:24:55] <archivist> not from a proper supplier
[19:25:37] <andypugh> I am guessing that the bin was for quenching into .
[19:26:07] <archivist> could be
[19:26:40] <andypugh> They used bins at Leeds, with a wire inner bucket in case you dropped it.
[19:31:03] <andypugh> Tonight I might try machining down my ballnut. What could possibly go wrong?
[19:31:50] <frallzor> http://www.vimeo.com/10412290 I like documenting my stuff! :P
[19:34:58] <WalterN> hey.. I was just thinking...
[19:36:32] <WalterN> on some newer CNC mills, you can have a manual option, where there are encoder wheels for x,y, and z, so you can jog it around like it was (more or less) a manual mill... does EMC allow that too?
[19:39:06] <skunkworks> you could have an jog wheel for each axis...
[19:41:04] <WalterN> I suppose, but thats not really what I asked :P
[19:41:31] <skunkworks> then - yes.
[19:41:34] <skunkworks> :)
[19:41:37] <andypugh> I think it is what you were asking.
[19:42:53] <WalterN> erm.. jog wheel...
[19:42:59] <andypugh> MPG for each axis, wired into the stepgens (or axis positions) via a mux module. Or you could literally cut while jogging.
[19:43:21] <WalterN> I'm trying to think of that mill that I saw
[19:43:26] <andypugh> WalterN: quadrature-encoded knob.
[19:43:35] <WalterN> I think it was a hurco
[19:43:39] <WalterN> mill
[19:43:43] <archivist> jog wheel is a knob on an encoder
[19:44:35] <WalterN> one of the wheels could also be used to manually go though the program
[19:45:06] <WalterN> turn it slower, it executes the command slower
[19:45:17] <WalterN> (like a rapid or feed command)
[19:45:30] <andypugh> Yes, that would be wired to motion.feed-overide
[19:45:37] <SWPadnos> unfortunately, I don't think there's any way to do that in EMC2
[19:45:49] <WalterN> ok
[19:45:54] <SWPadnos> you can speed and slow the feedrate that way, but you can't jog through the program
[19:46:19] <WalterN> I havent actually used one, so I'm not sure how useful that would be
[19:46:20] <SWPadnos> unless you hook up your encoder as a spindle and use spindle-synchronized motion :)
[19:46:22] <andypugh> Is the single-step button exposed in halui?
[19:46:23] <skunkworks> andys way - maybe with the encoder velocity hooked into the feed-override.. it would allow one direction program exec
[19:46:25] <SWPadnos> (and you still can't go backwards)
[19:46:48] <SWPadnos> I don't know about single-step
[19:47:21] <SWPadnos> making that work with an encoder, and taking into account the fact that you can't step backwards, doesn't sound all that much "better" than a single-step button
[19:47:40] <WalterN> yeah
[19:47:40] <andypugh> OK, there is a button I have only ever used by accident that I thought was single-step.
[19:47:53] <WalterN> the hurco allowed it to go backwards too
[19:48:18] <andypugh> Did it put the metal back on the part? That would be great!
[19:48:18] <SWPadnos> the idea of doing that has been bandied about for about 5 years, but it's not all that easy
[19:48:41] <WalterN> but, I cant really tell if it was actually useful...
[19:48:49] <WalterN> was/would be
[19:49:11] <SWPadnos> it may be possible (just thinking out loud here, so don't actually read this) to make a mode that's like spindle-synched motion, fed from something other than the spindle
[19:49:31] <SWPadnos> there's a potential issue with index, and probably about 100 others
[19:49:51] <SWPadnos> it seems that it would be quite useful during setup
[19:50:05] <WalterN> hmm
[19:50:07] <SWPadnos> go back and forth over a path while checking vise clearance or something
[19:50:52] <andypugh> I think you could so something with a flip-flop, edge detectors, the jogwheel output and halui.program.step. But I don't know why you would want to :-)
[19:51:06] <SWPadnos> yeah, I agree with those statements ;)
[19:51:06] <skunkworks> I don't think the axis moves backwards though when you rotate the spindle backwards (manually). Atleast I know that to be true when lathe threading..
[19:51:49] <SWPadnos> I know that doesn't happen in EMC2 - there's no motion until the spindle is rotated past its "furthest rotation", the axes just stay still if you spin the spindle backwards
[19:52:04] <WalterN> wait, why cant it be synced with the handwheel its self?
[19:52:23] <SWPadnos> well, it could be in theory, but it still wouldn't go backwards
[19:52:24] <WalterN> rather than the spindle
[19:52:41] <SWPadnos> there is no provision in EMC2 to reverse a prior line of G-code
[19:53:00] <SWPadnos> it gets really complicated when you consider loops and variables that have math operations done on them
[19:53:20] <SWPadnos> how would EMC2 know how to reverse #32=[#32+#32]
[19:53:23] <skunkworks> I will change my statement above.. I would think you could hooke the velocity of a jog wheel to the adaptive feedrate pin - then the faster you spun the wheel - the faster the program would run. (by increasing the feed)
[19:53:25] <WalterN> yeah, no kidding... I didnt even think about loops and such
[19:54:08] <SWPadnos> skunkworks, yes, that would give something like the "feel" of jogging forward through a program
[19:54:12] <WalterN> SWPadnos: a program length history?
[19:54:23] <SWPadnos> how long should that be?
[19:54:38] <WalterN> as long as the program is, until it runs out of system memory
[19:54:41] <WalterN> heh
[19:54:48] <SWPadnos> a loop that moves 0.001 inches per loop, for 10000 loops, would be problematic
[19:54:51] <WalterN> I guess
[19:54:55] <andypugh> Just store position every 0.0001" with a timestamp, memory is cheap.
[19:54:56] <WalterN> well
[19:54:58] <SWPadnos> I'd say not ;)
[19:55:14] <WalterN> hmm
[19:55:39] <SWPadnos> every 0.0001 second needs realtime, which now means that you're buffering large chunks of data in kernel space (which isn't unlimited)
[19:55:50] <SWPadnos> it also does nothing for non-motion codes
[19:56:00] <SWPadnos> what's the reverse of S1000?
[19:56:09] <SWPadnos> or T2M6
[19:56:21] <SWPadnos> it's not a simple problem
[19:56:24] <WalterN> andypugh: and build a 3D block out of 0.0001" cells?
[19:56:50] <andypugh> I should perhaps point out that I am already convinced that it is too much trouble, too much complexity and not that useful.
[19:57:04] <SWPadnos> heh
[19:57:07] <WalterN> :P
[19:57:22] <WalterN> just asking :)
[19:57:29] <SWPadnos> yeah. now it might be possible to do something that just refuses to "buffer" past certain codes
[19:57:42] <cradek> IMO the best way to dry-run a program in emc is with a wheel hooked to maxvel
[19:57:44] <SWPadnos> like anything that isn't a G0/G1/G2/G3 or something
[19:57:45] <andypugh> But a friend of mine routinely stores voxcel arrays of that sort of resolution.
[19:58:27] <cradek> it works great and you have really good control. I always use this to control entry moves when running a program the first time after messing with tool lengths.
[19:58:46] <andypugh> (But then they had 15 terabyte disk arrays back when a Terabyte was a lot, like 10 years ago)
[19:59:53] <andypugh> Reccomended surface speed for CBN tooling, hardened speed and interrupted cut
[19:59:58] <andypugh> ?
[20:00:02] <andypugh> I have no idea.
[20:06:35] <cradek> sorry to derail the conversation with an actual solution that exists and works well...
[20:07:24] <andypugh> Just don't let it happen again :-)
[20:10:25] <andypugh> OK, web searching suggests 300-500 fpm, 0.003" depth of cut.
[20:10:32] <skunkworks> * skunkworks can't wait to be able to try some of these things out on the big machine.
[20:10:35] <andypugh> The speed sounds quite high.
[20:13:56] <MattyMatt> has anyone considered force-feedback jogwheels?
[20:18:03] <mikegg> that would be really cool
[20:18:13] <mikegg> you would need an analog in to monitor the current
[20:18:44] <MattyMatt> a stepper would do
[20:18:54] <mikegg> on the jogwheel?
[20:18:59] <MattyMatt> yep
[20:19:12] <tom3p> describe a force feedback wheel (it gets harder to turn the faster you turn it?? you can feel a 'tick??)
[20:19:38] <mikegg> if you monitor the torque that your cutting motors are drawing
[20:19:44] <mikegg> err monitor current
[20:19:56] <mikegg> current is proportional to torque in most cases
[20:20:24] <mikegg> then scale it down and provide that as feedback to your jogwheel
[20:20:31] <MattyMatt> if, in the above scenario of using the jogwheel to vary the feed rate, you exceed the feed rate measured at the spindle (this would need encoders on the axes) then the wheel resists
[20:22:25] <MattyMatt> you could touch off by feel, like on a manual machine
[20:22:47] <mikegg> I was imagining more along the lines of using the jogwheel to take a cut, the heavier the cut you take, the harder it is to turn the jogwheel
[20:23:01] <tom3p> ah, a tangible throttle, but why not just clip the output ( V>max --> V= Vmax)
[20:23:03] <MattyMatt> that would naturally happen
[20:23:32] <mikegg> ..? how
[20:24:24] <MattyMatt> basically the wheel would attempt to reflect the actual position. if you want to force the tool, you'll have to force the wheel
[20:24:55] <mikegg> ahh, ok
[20:25:04] <SWPadnos> you can use a stepper as an encoder, with some extra cirucitry
[20:25:05] <mikegg> right
[20:25:26] <SWPadnos> and you can put a trickle current through one of the coils if you want it to resist motion more than the normal detents do
[20:25:29] <MattyMatt> SWPadnos: yeah I read that, but was informed it isn't reliable at all speeds
[20:25:36] <SWPadnos> right, like stopped
[20:26:22] <SWPadnos> I think there was an old Allen Bradley encoder that was a stepper motor. Stuart had one that wasn't working at his shop
[20:27:06] <MattyMatt> I'll try it out, to be sure, once I've milled a nice big knob with 100 grads
[20:27:22] <SWPadnos> oh yeah, that's the other thing
[20:27:30] <SWPadnos> steppers are usually 200 clicks per revolution :)
[20:27:50] <SWPadnos> and those are the clicks that you can make more or less resistant to motion
[20:27:51] <MattyMatt> these inkjet ones I've got are only 100
[20:27:57] <SWPadnos> ok, that may work
[20:28:21] <MattyMatt> I'd rather have 200 tbh, or 1000 and a vernier
[20:28:33] <MattyMatt> 100 divs is just easy to count
[20:28:58] <SWPadnos> it's a lot easier to make a wheel that has 100 detents rather than 1000, I bet
[20:29:53] <WalterN> I suppose it depends on the size :P
[20:30:13] <MattyMatt> without a stepper, I thought using a cheap 32 detent encoder and a gear to a 100 wheel would be cheap and effective
[20:31:32] <skunkworks> http://piclist.com/techref/io/sensor/pos/enc/stepper_as_encoder.htm
[20:33:48] <MattyMatt> ah neat, that takes it down to 0rpm. I suppose 200-300 is the fastest you'll ever need, or you'll get RSI
[20:34:36] <MattyMatt> and you just vary the "slight energise" to get free force feedback
[20:35:37] <MattyMatt> free hardware. I expect it'll need coding deep in emc2
[20:37:51] <Jymmm> Might be an interesting use of NEMA 19(?) motors with dual shafts
[20:37:57] <MattyMatt> and you'll need to dump all the current you're generating by cranking it fast
[20:38:42] <MattyMatt> 14s and 17s are common
[20:39:06] <MattyMatt> these tin can inkjet ones would do
[20:39:21] <Jymmm> ds3: Here ya go.... FREE http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/zip/1659482375.html
[20:40:24] <MattyMatt> i'd like that
[20:40:48] <Jymmm> Me too.... as a barge anchor
[20:45:26] <MattyMatt> I'm getting ideas about running my wooden machine with coolant
[20:45:55] <Jymmm> RETURN TO SENDER
[20:46:57] <MattyMatt> if I have a flat bath bolted to the table with rubber washers, it might not get too soggy
[20:48:43] <MattyMatt> all the fun stuff to mill needs coolant
[20:48:57] <MattyMatt> stone, glass, metals
[20:51:07] <MattyMatt> ah well, it's cheaper to build a furnace :) I'll make some castings first and work out how to mill them later
[21:01:11] <i_tarzan_> castings metal?
[21:02:41] <MattyMatt> yeah aluminium probably
[21:03:34] <MattyMatt> or whatever I can melt.
[21:04:20] <MattyMatt> I need to find a cheap propane tank & a blower before I start buying refractory
[21:05:06] <MattyMatt> I think waste oil is becoming scarce
[21:06:32] <MattyMatt> commercial firms are going to all the fry shops and garages regularly and I think they pay
[21:06:40] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[21:07:10] <MattyMatt> I'll ask a few and find out tho
[21:07:11] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[21:22:33] <MattyMatt> http://imagebin.org/90215
[21:22:54] <MattyMatt> I've made a plotter \o/
[21:23:49] <archivist> spring load the pencil a small amount to keep it in contact
[21:24:13] <MattyMatt> I stacked the right number of sockets on top for the A :)
[21:26:46] <MattyMatt> it's still 2x the size it's supposed to be. I'll run stepconf again from scratch
[21:42:14] <jt-plasma> http://www.linuxcnc.org/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,20/func,view/catid,16/id,1869/lang,english/#2429
[22:15:57] <tom3p> gedit put an odd char in for the char a topright slanted single quote in my python hal component files (UTF-8 encoding).
[22:16:09] <tom3p> fixed by using the text editor from mc. now the char is vertical
[22:16:20] <tom3p> and it loads :)
[22:16:47] <MattyMatt> I use gedit for coding, it's never done that to me
[22:17:08] <tom3p> wehat does it say the default charset is?
[22:19:54] <MattyMatt> document language is set to English, not English (UK)
[22:20:01] <tom3p> the err was SyntaxError: Non-ASCII character '\xe2'
[22:20:09] <MattyMatt> I can't find any other encoding settings
[22:21:02] <tom3p> well i know how to avoid it , thx
[22:22:06] <MattyMatt> it could be your keyb settings, although that would affect all editors. I've got no £ key
[22:22:52] <MattyMatt> I fixed mine, but installing a new nv driver broke it again
[22:23:21] <MattyMatt> that's a bug xorg fixed in 2006 :p
[22:24:46] <MattyMatt> I complained to nv, maybe I should get a new driver, an openCL ready one this time
[22:26:09] <TD-Linux> I'm still on 173
[22:26:53] <MattyMatt> 177.67 for me, that was the cuda approved one at the time
[22:27:27] <MattyMatt> Sept 4th 2008
[22:27:30] <TD-Linux> 173 has huge memory leaks, I am going to try to go to 185 or 190
[22:27:40] <TD-Linux> this one is early 2008
[22:29:41] <MattyMatt> I bought this card especially for cuda and I never did a damn thing in it
[22:30:46] <TD-Linux> hehe I got this one for games and hardly play them
[22:31:06] <TD-Linux> oh I also got it for video playback but 173 aren't vdpau compatable :P
[22:31:23] <TD-Linux> 185 is, I should really upgrade :P though haven't had to play high bitrate video yet for anything
[22:31:56] <MattyMatt> mine is very laggy playing video fullscreen
[22:32:59] <MattyMatt> far more so than even a software upscale should cause. I've heard it's an X problem everyone has
[22:34:12] <MattyMatt> ah well onwards and upwards. no need to learn cuda now CL is available
[22:49:59] <MattyMatt> right, now would be a good time to add TTF loading to my vector gfx lib
[22:50:45] <MattyMatt> iirc, I was part way through SWF importing, better finish that first
[22:54:30] <tom3p> MattyMatt, it wasnt gedit, i had copied & pasted from the Hal documentation :o
[22:55:02] <MattyMatt> aha :)
[22:55:08] <tom3p> MattyMatt, you looking at curve imports? like beziers?
[22:55:25] <MattyMatt> yep
[22:55:53] <MattyMatt> I've already written a rasteriser, which may be useful to adapt for profiling
[22:55:54] <tom3p> yesterday i posted some work done on that, for nc code
[22:56:18] <tom3p> yes, i thought it'd be nice for engraving
[22:56:53] <MattyMatt> for all cam
[22:57:09] <MattyMatt> e.g. organic models in blender
[22:57:30] <MattyMatt> although mine don't use bezier patches, blender has them now
[22:58:52] <MattyMatt> my lib keeps beziers intact internally, so hopefully it will port cleanly between SWF, SVG and another one I forget right now
[22:59:24] <MattyMatt> now I need to add gcode exporting to the list :)
[23:01:29] <MattyMatt> SWF can't have a bezier segment with tapering thickness, unfortunately
[23:02:32] <MattyMatt> so SWF can't be the working format for engraving
[23:03:35] <JT-Hardinge> what do you have to feed to motion.spindle.at-speed?
[23:06:41] <JT-Hardinge> I bet that motion.spindle-speed-out-rps and hm2-5i20.encoder.02.velocity into a near thingy will do it
[23:09:11] <ds3> what's a good way of cutting sheet stock with nowrappage? dremel and a cut offwheel ?
[23:10:25] <andypugh> Nibbler or Monodex
[23:10:42] <ds3> * ds3 looks up Monodex
[23:11:40] <andypugh> What's the budget?
[23:12:14] <ds3> tiny... it is a one off job
[23:12:36] <andypugh> How thick, what material?
[23:12:45] <ds3> I found some cut off perforated material for the laser table now I need to just cut it to size (the cut off was cheap!)
[23:13:03] <ds3> it looks almost 0.092 thick... the guy says it is plain steel
[23:13:39] <ds3> clarification... by cut off, I mean drops...end peices..that sort of thing
[23:13:41] <andypugh> .092" or mm?
[23:13:45] <ds3> 0.092"
[23:14:19] <andypugh> You will struggle to nibble that without using a monster.
[23:14:25] <andypugh> http://www.csunitec.com/corner-drills/portable-nibblers.html?PHPSESSID=d0fb8fe5deb85302eac82e6c08bb74a2
[23:14:33] <andypugh> Are probably out of your budget
[23:14:34] <ds3> *nod*
[23:14:50] <ds3> what's a second choice? the dremel wheels?
[23:14:57] <andypugh> Jigsaw.
[23:15:17] <ds3> I have shears that MIGHT handle it but that tends to distort the material
[23:15:42] <andypugh> Use a jigsaw, I have cut 1" brass with a jigsaw.
[23:16:03] <ds3> only jigsaw I have is a battery powered one and I donno if I can find 32tpi blades for it
[23:17:18] <andypugh> Buy one of these? I am sure it will come in handy for other jobs :-)
[23:17:19] <andypugh> http://www.evolutionpowertools.co.uk/us/evolution_evo180.html
[23:17:36] <JT-Hardinge> make a friend at a sheet metal shop and get them to shear it or try a 4 1/2 grinder with thin cut off wheels
[23:18:01] <andypugh> Aye, the 1mm thick grinder discs cut quickly and cleanly.
[23:18:05] <ds3> heh.. not sure if that will not distort the relatively thin material... otherwise, I got a porta-bandsaw...just need to find 32tpi blades
[23:18:40] <andypugh> The jigsaw sounds cheapest and easiest and blades should be easy.
[23:18:59] <ds3> JT-Hardinge: the shears always seem to leave a distorted edge like a giant burr
[23:19:12] <andypugh> There is a fair chance I could go to the supermarket now (it's after 11pm) and get a suitable jigsaw blade.
[23:19:30] <ds3> this saw has a funny mount from what I recall
[23:19:31] <JT-Hardinge> that is what a small hammer is for
[23:19:36] <andypugh> I think JT-Hardinge was meaning a Guillotine.
[23:20:17] <andypugh> Hmm, note to self, if popping out to the workshop before dinner, pop back for dinner before 11pm in future.
[23:20:52] <ds3> and it was the Guillotine that leaves the distortion... at least on the 1/4" material that a friend did for me
[23:21:45] <ds3> thanks for the ideas
[23:22:03] <andypugh> I spent ages staring at the job thinking "If I had known it looked like that when apart I would have designed the new bits differently". I am half tempted to start again with a thicker lump of material, but it is the milling machine that the parts are for, and it's all in bits now.
[23:22:34] <JT-Hardinge> yes a sheet metal shear
[23:22:41] <andypugh> ds3: Sounds like he had a rubbish and blunt Guillotine.
[23:23:09] <ds3> so a good one won't do that?
[23:23:22] <ds3> that thing looked dangerous enough to any limbs that might be in the wrong place ;)
[23:23:25] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[23:23:30] <andypugh> I mean a device like this http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Hydraulic_guillotine_shear.jpg
[23:24:04] <andypugh> Not like this
[23:24:05] <andypugh> http://kahlukers.com/images/015_studiosale.jpg
[23:24:17] <ds3> his is probally twice as long and looks more like a stapler
[23:24:54] <andypugh> Anyway, what's the problem, just laser it.
[23:25:00] <ds3> hehehe
[23:37:53] <Valen> http://hackaday.com/2010/03/24/arm-based-cnc-mill-needs-no-computer/
[23:39:41] <andypugh> MattyMatt: I just looked at your pencil plot. Your machine seems to be working a lot better than I was expecting it to, the curves are nice and smooth.
[23:40:47] <andypugh> Oh, and for force-feedback a servo motor would work nicely, just use the encoder as an encoder, and use a single-chip driver (<$10) to apply the torque.
[23:46:31] <JT-Hardinge> All right now we have spindle at speed working
[23:48:59] <andypugh> Splendid!
[23:52:35] <andypugh> OK, let me run something past anyone who happens to be reading.
[23:53:49] <andypugh> I want to move the ballscrew for my mill Z axis inside the column to get it nearer to where the forces are, to stop cocking the slide over, to keep the swarf off, and to look prettier.
[23:54:50] <andypugh> The casting is hollow, and seems to be a rough-cast rectangular void about 60mm x 30mm.
[23:55:12] <andypugh> But I have no idea what it does in the further reaches where the light doesn't reach.
[23:55:57] <andypugh> My existing ballnut is 28mm OD with circular flange with 40mm flats.
[23:57:42] <andypugh> Do I a) machine down the flange to 28mm across flats and hope that it fits in the hole or b) Buy a 32mm OD RSW circular ballnut, then bore out a 35mm hole in the column for it to run in? (I have access to a horizontal boring machine, so I can make long circular holes, but not long rectangular holes)
[23:58:28] <andypugh> Now I have written it down, plan B makes the most sense, other than the expense.
[23:58:32] <tom3p> hope versus sure? sure wins
[23:58:57] <Valen> also the stuff they make ballnuts out of is some kind of insane steel
[23:59:07] <Valen> HSS hardly scratched it
[23:59:13] <andypugh> Yeah, I am not sure I can machine the ballnut, and I am not sure it will fit if I do.
[23:59:27] <andypugh> I have a packet of CBN tipped tools.
[23:59:33] <Valen> i'm sure you can, but you probably dont want to lol