#emc | Logs for 2010-03-20

[00:00:16] <WalterN> then again, thats kinda what you get for having 2-3 ppl trying to run 8-9 machines
[00:00:26] <VernonM> wow what IS that lump?
[00:00:29] <toastydeath> andypugh, that's the weirdest milling machine i've ever seen
[00:00:52] <VernonM> I love old machines, but I don't know what that is
[00:00:55] <andypugh> I want it. I just don't know what for.
[00:01:01] <VernonM> yeah I bet
[00:01:06] <VernonM> it's cool
[00:01:29] <pfred1> is it a shaper?
[00:01:49] <WalterN> andypugh: I've seen something like that before
[00:01:50] <VernonM> horizontal with a rotary?
[00:02:02] <WalterN> only where that disk thing is sitting flat
[00:02:15] <WalterN> weird that they made it sit on its side
[00:02:28] <andypugh> archivist: You there? You like the wierd old junk
[00:02:29] <VernonM> must be old, pre-vertical?
[00:02:48] <pfred1> I see what it does it looks handy
[00:03:02] <WalterN> seems useful for turning short fat things
[00:03:20] <toastydeath> like a lathe, but harder to set up!
[00:03:28] <andypugh> Don't be personal!
[00:03:33] <WalterN> and odball shaped things
[00:03:39] <WalterN> lol
[00:03:50] <VernonM> hahaha
[00:04:04] <andypugh> Do you think EMC has a kinematics module for it :-)
[00:04:08] <VernonM> it's not on lathes.co.uk either
[00:04:11] <VernonM> ha
[00:04:15] <VernonM> probably
[00:04:23] <VernonM> lumpkins
[00:04:24] <andypugh> I could have told you that, I looked before posting.
[00:04:35] <VernonM> mutantkins
[00:04:40] <pfred1> its a vertical mill on its side with a huge rotary table
[00:04:42] <VernonM> yeah I figured you looked
[00:04:42] <toastydeath> mudkips
[00:05:30] <VernonM> very interesting. go get it.
[00:05:52] <WalterN> the one I saw was massive
[00:07:04] <andypugh> It might already be the only one of its kind, but if you CNC-converted it really would be
[00:07:05] <WalterN> the rotary table was something like 4' in diameter
[00:07:33] <WalterN> maybe bigger
[00:07:46] <toastydeath> horizontal boring machine?
[00:07:48] <andypugh> It looks really compact. It would easily fit in my garage...
[00:08:09] <pfred1> andypugh you have 3 phase?
[00:08:12] <WalterN> toastydeath: like the one above only sitting up and down
[00:08:18] <andypugh> I have an inverter....
[00:08:25] <WalterN> and _much_ bigger
[00:09:52] <pfred1> andypugh at least if you pick it up you won't be getting any new vices with the deal
[00:09:58] <toastydeath> http://www.rhocan.com/images/Horizontal%20Boring%20Mill%202.jpg
[00:10:15] <pfred1> Vice not included.
[00:11:05] <andypugh> toastydeath: That's a little HBM. Where my dad used to work they had one that would take a semi.
[00:11:29] <andypugh> (And I mean semi-detached, not semi-trailer!)
[00:11:55] <pfred1> toastydeath thats a big flange
[00:12:17] <andypugh> Though the Kearns HBMs are lovely little machines, I would struggle to refuse the offer of one of these.
[00:12:28] <Jymmm> He'll be back! QUICK EVERYONE HIDE!
[00:12:34] <toastydeath> OH LAWD
[00:12:41] <toastydeath> WalterN, was that it
[00:12:46] <pfred1> toastydeath 20:11 < pfred1> toastydeath thats a big flange
[00:12:57] <toastydeath> that's what she said
[00:13:10] <WalterN> toastydeath: no, the disk is sitting flat
[00:13:20] <toastydeath> oh
[00:13:29] <WalterN> toastydeath: and it did not have the table thing
[00:13:30] <toastydeath> well, they have them both ways
[00:13:37] <pfred1> WalterN I've seen what you're talking about
[00:14:00] <andypugh> http://www.timdixon.com/Machines/boo1.JPG
[00:14:15] <toastydeath> hahah that's a cute boring mill
[00:14:20] <andypugh> My dad has one, it is very close to being a universal machine tool
[00:14:30] <WalterN> interesting
[00:14:42] <WalterN> is it very useful?
[00:14:53] <toastydeath> boring mills are probably one of the most versatile machine tools
[00:14:55] <andypugh> Is what useful?
[00:14:58] <toastydeath> so yeah
[00:15:11] <WalterN> the boo1.JPG link above
[00:15:43] <andypugh> Yes, though he doesn't use it for anything commercial, it's hobby for him
[00:16:43] <WalterN> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0FOYQFpbvI lolz
[00:16:49] <andypugh> The head goes up and down, and the handle on the left-hand end of the head moves a radial slide on the rotating chuck thingy. So it's a 4-axis machine
[00:16:53] <pfred1> reminds me of a gingery mill the last two http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/gmill/gingery-mill.html
[00:18:02] <toastydeath> andypugh, does it have the tailstock
[00:18:09] <andypugh> Ours does, yes
[00:18:12] <toastydeath> a+
[00:18:37] <andypugh> For use with moving-toolbit boring bars
[00:19:28] <andypugh> You can either use an overhung bar (or milling cutter, or boring head) or use a through-bar where you move the toolbit out for diameter
[00:20:07] <toastydeath> there are also contouring heads
[00:20:10] <toastydeath> for those machines
[00:20:46] <andypugh> It has vernier scales on all the axes. Nice features are that the Z zero is _exactly_ where the head axis is on the table surface, and the 6" of the Y is _exactly_ on the axis of the rotatable table.
[00:21:10] <toastydeath> haha damn
[00:21:53] <andypugh> There is power radial feed too, so you can bore a housing, back out, flick the lever and it will face off the register face.
[00:22:35] <andypugh> And with a toolpost fitted is is a 3' swing lathe...
[00:22:40] <toastydeath> lol
[00:24:42] <andypugh> My dad keeps looking at milling machine vertical conversion heads on eBay thinking that a vertical head on the other end would be rather handy, (the main spindle max speed is in the hundreds of RPMs)
[00:26:00] <toastydeath> i dunno about that whole vertical head business
[00:26:17] <toastydeath> I ran a big ass OKK horizontal cnc and I'd take it anyday over any vertical
[00:26:22] <andypugh> You eat a lot less coolant with a vertical head..
[00:26:30] <toastydeath> oh, i guess that's true
[00:26:36] <toastydeath> with an unenclosed machine
[00:27:04] <toastydeath> i dunno, there's just something satisfying about climbing all over a machine to set it up
[00:28:02] <toastydeath> although the new machines i'm running are vertical and really sweet
[00:28:04] <toastydeath> so i dunno
[00:28:10] <andypugh> Yeah, I used to run a 20' tall tensile testing machine.
[00:28:16] <toastydeath> hahahah
[00:28:37] <andypugh> (Actually, rather lovely servo-hydraulics, my first exposure to PID)
[00:29:29] <pfred1> andypugh me too though they called it a broach at the shop I worked in
[00:29:48] <toastydeath> lol
[00:30:37] <andypugh> I think I have mentioned the bigger triaxial machine that I never used, that could apply tension, torsion and differential pressure to specimens? 20,000 bar (yes, bar, not psi, you could get compressive yield through-thickness)
[00:31:02] <toastydeath> pics or it didn't happen
[00:31:12] <toastydeath> (i kid)
[00:31:27] <andypugh> I have looked quite hard for pics, never found any.
[00:31:55] <icaro> Hi guys, good night! I'm working on a project to build a CNC machine, and would like to use the EMC. However, I wonder if it is compatible with PLC, and if so, which PLC. Any tips?
[00:32:22] <andypugh> That's a broad question.
[00:32:31] <andypugh> What do you want to do with the PLC?
[00:33:02] <toastydeath> some commercial plcs have machine control stuff
[00:33:25] <toastydeath> and you attach a g-code interpreter to the front end of them
[00:34:02] <icaro> andypugh Using PLC to control.
[00:34:54] <andypugh> Normally you would use EMC to control, it can do anything a PLC can do, and rather more.
[00:35:23] <andypugh> I am not sure what the PLC is bringing to the party :-)
[00:35:48] <toastydeath> andypugh, usually some kind of acceleration and jerk control, along with machine look ahead.
[00:35:49] <pfred1> andypugh EMCPLC
[00:35:57] <atmega> I have had linux boxes lock up... I've never had a plc lock up
[00:36:08] <pfred1> atmega don't OC
[00:36:46] <atmega> I don't.
[00:37:23] <pfred1> atmega well you're doing something wrong becaue I haven't seen Linux fail in a long time and I've been running it steady for 15 years now
[00:37:52] <atmega> I've been running it since 0.12, as of 1.3.45 it has been mostly rock solid
[00:38:25] <atmega> except on the rare occasion that it locked up... could be hardware, but...
[00:39:00] <pfred1> atmega linux is far from perfect but still it doesn't fail enough to be an issue really
[00:39:16] <andypugh> Anyway, back to the point. You almost certainly can make EMC work with you PLC, but it might be a waste of EMC
[00:39:27] <atmega> in that case, you don't need a real plc.
[00:40:20] <toastydeath> you're not going to be able to use the features of the plc with emc
[00:40:42] <pfred1> toastydeath can't code what you want?
[00:40:44] <toastydeath> most manufacturers like fanuc and g&l who make high end PLCs for machining have front ends for them
[00:40:44] <andypugh> Why not?
[00:40:57] <toastydeath> andypugh, because emc won't feed the plc with the look ahead information it wants
[00:41:14] <toastydeath> and therefore, you can't use any of the crazy functions they have for that
[00:41:19] <andypugh> We still have not had an answer about what the PLC is....
[00:42:13] <toastydeath> truf
[00:42:25] <andypugh> icaro: Sorry, we seem to have digressed. What are you trying to do, what hardware do you already have, what are you trying to achieve?
[00:43:15] <pfred1> andypugh 20:34 < icaro> andypugh Using PLC to control.
[00:43:57] <icaro> andypugh nós iremos construir uma máquina CNC para fresar madeira.
[00:44:02] <icaro> opz
[00:44:04] <icaro> sorry
[00:44:14] <andypugh> Nothing like the machine I was talking about, but a nice photo, this is a Bi-Axial machine without the scary pressure vessel: http://www.lmt.ens-cachan.fr/site/images/essais_2005n00973h.jpg
[00:44:29] <icaro> andypugh we will build a CNC machine for milling wood. :P
[00:44:30] <toastydeath> dang
[00:44:50] <pfred1> icaro people do that with EMC
[00:44:56] <toastydeath> also if you're just doing wood, i'm going to go with the majority opinion and say "why use the plc"
[00:45:07] <andypugh> Me too!
[00:45:59] <pfred1> speaking of wood does anyone here know what ever happened to Les Watts?
[00:46:54] <pfred1> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?Les_Watts'_Router
[00:47:11] <andypugh> <digression even further> So "Madeira" means "wood"? Interesting.
[00:48:03] <andypugh> pfred1: Looks like a serious machine
[00:48:16] <pfred1> andypugh he used to hang out in this channel years ago
[00:48:28] <andypugh> Maybe he got a life?
[00:48:49] <pfred1> he always appeared to have one to me
[00:49:01] <pfred1> maybe he died?
[00:49:23] <pfred1> but yeah when it came to his CNCing Les didn't mess around
[00:49:42] <andypugh> Anyway, icaro, You almost certainly can do what you want to do without the PLC. Or with the PLC if you really want to.
[00:49:47] <icaro> andypugh yeah wood means madeira :P
[00:50:26] <pfred1> andypugh I don't think Les used any PLCs in his machine least I don't remember him talking about any
[00:50:27] <andypugh> I know "Madeira" as an island, and as a wine from the island.
[00:53:22] <icaro> andypugh So, what should I use? I am a software designer, not an engineer. : D
[00:54:16] <pfred1> icaro I don't think anyone has actually determined what you want to control with your PLC
[00:55:12] <pfred1> icaro wood working machines typically use either steppers or servos and spindles thats it
[00:55:45] <andypugh> If you are a software designer you should use EMC, it's software. And it is open-source. If there is something you need that it can't do, you can add it.
[00:56:30] <icaro> andypugh yeah
[00:57:12] <icaro> andypugh however, we are still designing the machine.
[00:57:19] <andypugh> But for a normal sort of machine, with steppers, servos, rotary or linear encoders, it is all already there
[00:57:19] <pfred1> are Mesa cards PLCs?
[00:57:57] <andypugh> I would need to look up definitions to be sure. Not conventional ones.
[00:58:42] <skunkworks> wait - what are we talking about?
[00:58:53] <pfred1> skunkworks control!
[00:58:55] <andypugh> However, the behaviour of a "classic" PLC is duplicated by EMC's "Classic Ladder"
[00:58:59] <skunkworks> emc has a built in ladder logic
[00:59:08] <andypugh> Beat you!
[00:59:11] <skunkworks> heh
[00:59:58] <pfred1> so EMC can emulate a PLC?
[01:00:11] <skunkworks> it has a built in software plc program
[01:00:40] <pfred1> icaro how about that? if you use EMC you get PLC for free
[01:00:46] <pfred1> and it sort of rhymes too
[01:01:19] <skunkworks> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?ClassicLadder
[01:01:29] <andypugh> icaro: OK, if you are still designing, you can pretty much assume that all control can be handled by EMC. Your extra hardware will be dumb stepper / servo / bldc drivers / encoders
[01:01:46] <andypugh> All of those work with EMC
[01:02:13] <pfred1> yeah all you have to decide is if you want to run open or closed loop right?
[01:02:30] <andypugh> You might want to offload some of the signal generation from the CPU to general purpose hardware, but probably not a PLC.
[01:02:39] <pfred1> and how much cash you want to blow
[01:03:18] <skunkworks> the mesa card would be used as the physical interface between the emc/ladder and the outside world
[01:03:23] <icaro> andypugh understood.
[01:03:59] <icaro> andypugh But, there is no need to use microcontrollers, nothing?
[01:04:13] <skunkworks> or printer port
[01:04:22] <andypugh> There are a number of, for example, FPGA-based cards to handle fast encoder counting, PWM generation, Stepper motor signal and/or pulse/direction stuff, but that stuff can also all be done internally be EMC in software
[01:05:10] <pfred1> andypugh theoretically if you had a low enough latency machine you wouldn't need any of that would you?
[01:05:24] <andypugh> icaro: No. You can, but all it does is take the control from hardware you can see and control, to hardware you can't
[01:05:40] <andypugh> pfred1: No, you wouldn't
[01:06:03] <pfred1> because EMC can do it all
[01:06:16] <pfred1> just can it do it fast enough with what you have?
[01:06:23] <skunkworks> I have done closed loop servo control with just the printer port.. You are just limited by how fast you can count the encoder.
[01:06:46] <pfred1> skunkworks p-port is what 1.5 mb/s right?
[01:06:59] <skunkworks> well - your limited by rtai and latency.
[01:07:07] <andypugh> At some point a $75 Mesa card with 48 IO pins and onboard encoder counters starts to look better than 6 Parallel port cards though.
[01:07:09] <pfred1> which isn't exactly blistering fast
[01:07:30] <skunkworks> you would be lucky to count at around 50khz. but it is fast for some applications.
[01:07:53] <skunkworks> chris ran his little lathe that way for a while. worked great.
[01:08:14] <pfred1> skunkworks what was his IPM rapid?
[01:08:40] <skunkworks> I would go with hardware encoder counting.. ;) mesa, pico, whatever
[01:09:01] <skunkworks> pfred1: iirc 50ipm or so.. you would have to ask him
[01:09:23] <pfred1> skunkworks that is shaping up to be close to what I am expecting to get
[01:09:33] <andypugh> EMC can cover the spectrum from direct stepper control of motors wired directly to the parallel port (though they would have to be tiny to not blow it up) to sending serial data to a smart controller. Neither of those bookends make a great deal of sense
[01:09:38] <pfred1> stepperconf quoted me a figure of 48 IPM
[01:10:23] <icaro> andypugh Excuse my ignorance, but not yet fully understood. All control would be done via the parallel port?
[01:10:39] <pfred1> but if I went with twin start 5 TPI screws i could double that!
[01:11:31] <pfred1> icaro it can be but it does not have to be there are special controller cards you can get mesa is one popular one
[01:12:28] <pfred1> icaro http://www.mesanet.com/motioncardinfo.html
[01:12:35] <andypugh> icaro: That is one option, but not necessarily a good one.
[01:14:03] <pfred1> is this what the EMC crowd uses? http://www.mesanet.com/index.html
[01:14:19] <andypugh> OK, I don't really like posting this link as I think it gives a false impression. It list only a very small proportion of the possibilities
[01:14:20] <andypugh> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?EMC2_Supported_Hardware
[01:15:42] <pfred1> stupid frames site http://www.mesanet.com/aiodaughter.html
[01:16:21] <skunkworks> I was 'learnin' classic ladder.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_BasGaFqHk
[01:16:38] <andypugh> Personally I use a Mesa 7i43, which connects to the Parallel port and gives you 48 IO lines and onboard stepgens, PWM etc. But for a less cash-limited option there is the 5I20 which is a 72 IO pin PCI card.
[01:16:50] <icaro> humm
[01:17:15] <Jymmm> skunkworks: Looks like Knight Rider to me
[01:17:17] <pfred1> andypugh I'm looking at the 5I22 FPGA based PCI Anything I/O card now
[01:17:24] <andypugh> But you can run a 3-axis system entirely though the parallel port
[01:18:43] <Jymmm> What the hell?!?!?!?!?!???! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5ILnZYuE7o&NR=1
[01:20:19] <andypugh> icaro: How much are you expecting to spend on your machine? If the budget is low then you might want to assume Parallel port only. if the budget is high, then you should build a parallel port only simulator with a cheap eBay 4-axis controller and steppers (full system <$300) and experiment.
[01:20:36] <andypugh> In the intermediate budget range it is more complicated.
[01:21:25] <andypugh> icaro: Is this commercial or hobby
[01:21:33] <icaro> andypugh Our lab has a Rockwell PLC
[01:21:40] <icaro> andypugh academic :P
[01:21:42] <tom4p> icaro: for very low io point count, you can use parallel port. for higher, use i/o cards, some of these i/o cards are fpga, some are 8255... the control at that point is basicly 'ttl', so intermediate level shifting may be needed.
[01:22:27] <andypugh> I wouldn't use your Rockwell PLC just because you have it, I think it will be a distraction.
[01:22:45] <tom4p> the Rockwell PLC could be talked to, but you'd need to develop the 'driver', and since it would be a separate control, it would not be under realtime control. but it may suffice, we dont know your needs
[01:23:03] <pfred1> andypugh maybe icaro is just looking for something to do with their Rockwell PLC?
[01:23:39] <andypugh> pfred1: Fair point
[01:23:51] <tom4p> icaro, andypugh 's suggestion is good. the wiring to the devices attached to the Rockwell can still be used, but the PLC unit isnt needed
[01:23:55] <pfred1> andypugh and whether it is EMC or not is "academic"
[01:24:24] <tom4p> icaro, what do you want to achieve?
[01:25:13] <andypugh> icaro: I understand "academic" I spent 20 years at university.
[01:25:33] <andypugh> :-)
[01:25:39] <icaro> :D
[01:25:56] <Jymmm> andypugh: As a student?
[01:25:59] <pfred1> andypugh you know if you'd payed a bit more attention in class you might have been able to finish up a little sooner?
[01:26:11] <Jymmm> * Jymmm high fives pfred1
[01:26:28] <andypugh> Yeah, I know that _now_!
[01:28:08] <pfred1> andypugh I understand though it is good to set attainable goals
[01:29:41] <Jymmm> ds3: ping
[01:30:02] <tom4p> icaro, how many i/o points do you need?
[01:30:03] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: ping
[01:30:39] <pfred1> tom4p something tells me they haven't gotten that far in their planning stage yet
[01:30:54] <icaro> andypugh and microcontrollers?
[01:31:22] <andypugh> Tell my managers that? <moan> trip to the production plant at 8 hours notice, 17 hours travel, 18 hours work, 6 hours sleep, production not approved, $150 million predicted loss, and I was meant to fix it at this point with no authority and for my salary? </moan>
[01:31:38] <pfred1> icaro people use them to generate stepper sequences
[01:31:55] <andypugh> icaro: No, I don't understand microcontrollers :-)
[01:32:04] <icaro> :P
[01:32:18] <pfred1> andypugh me either thats why I used TTL for my stepper sequencer
[01:33:08] <pfred1> andypugh maybe the next one i build I'll give it a shot?
[01:33:42] <pfred1> andypugh I want to build a microstepping bipolar driver for some motors I have here now
[01:33:52] <tom4p> icaro you should look around and see the woodworking machines done with emc. that may give you some ideas. none that i know of use external PLC units.
[01:33:54] <Jymmm> ds3: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/tls/1651724128.html
[01:34:17] <MattyMatt> the integrated chips are good
[01:34:37] <pfred1> MattyMatt for 8 amps?
[01:34:53] <MattyMatt> this TB6560 board is fine
[01:35:02] <MattyMatt> OK it's only 3.5A :)
[01:35:13] <LawrenceG> les watts is still around.... you can skype him as user leswatts ... he is currently online on skype
[01:35:26] <tom4p> icaro yesterday a very interesting machine was discussed, a wood milling machine designed to make the strips of bamboo for fly fishing rods
[01:35:29] <pfred1> LawrenceG he used to be here all the time
[01:35:35] <andypugh> icaro: If you want to make a working machine, quickly, then ignore the PLC, it isn't going to help. Get 3 generic step/direction motor drivers, 3 suitable stepper motors, add 17 wires and with EMC you have a system. Adding the mechanical parts that the system controls is left as an excercise
[01:36:12] <tom4p> icaro and here's the 'Les Watts' machine http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?Les_Watts%27_Router
[01:36:19] <LawrenceG> yup... he got pulled into industry again too much time at the office!
[01:36:43] <pfred1> LawrenceG oh when i knew him he was focused on his furniture making business
[01:36:47] <icaro> tom4p cool
[01:36:49] <icaro> :D
[01:36:54] <andypugh> icaro: Where are you being academic?
[01:36:58] <MattyMatt> this chinese 4 axis TB6560 was by far the cheapest per channel, and it seems fine to me
[01:37:28] <pfred1> MattyMatt I have a nema 34 framed motor here it'd be a little light on I think
[01:37:36] <MattyMatt> although I'd prefer single channel drivers, if I had a bit more to spend
[01:37:53] <icaro> andypugh Brasil
[01:38:01] <LawrenceG> pfred1, yea... he got hired to head some fancy R&D stuff related to ultrasonics
[01:38:08] <tom4p> theres others in Brasil using EMC
[01:38:23] <icaro> andypugh Federal University of Bahia :P
[01:38:25] <MattyMatt> I was wondering, if you have 8 wire motors you could use 2 drivers per motor?
[01:38:50] <andypugh> Hmm, who was that other chap in Brasil? He seemed a fair way through the process?
[01:39:47] <icaro> hum?
[01:40:00] <andypugh> MattyMatt: Possibly, but you might really confuse the current feedback circuits
[01:40:34] <pfred1> I've been looking at the LMD1825
[01:40:50] <MattyMatt> I suspect it would work, the only connection between the coils is mechanical
[01:41:05] <andypugh> icaro: You are not the only putative EMC user in Brasil. But I am unable to remember the names of people, only of things.
[01:41:10] <MattyMatt> mag-mech-mag
[01:41:32] <pfred1> MattyMatt inductance is a funny thing
[01:42:31] <tlab> I could never get the LMD1825's to work right
[01:42:38] <tlab> I always blew one of them up
[01:42:49] <tlab> at 14 bucks a piece it adds up quick
[01:42:59] <tlab> but they were samples
[01:43:12] <MattyMatt> yeah but if it can handle back-emf from the other phase, it should handle it from the other in-phase coil
[01:43:33] <pfred1> tlab yeah you need to rig two to run a stepper motor and they're not trivial ti implement
[01:43:45] <MattyMatt> I should blow some stuff up, instead of speculating :)
[01:44:15] <tlab> yea I had two
[01:44:17] <tom4p> icaro other Brazillian EMC users showed their machines at FISL http://br-linux.org/2009/fisl-2010-vai-ser-na-puc-rs-de-21-a-24-de-julho/
[01:44:24] <tlab> and it would always blow one out
[01:44:52] <tom4p> andypugh, ito-brazil ?
[01:45:13] <tlab> but I tried breadboard, then perf board... and I think there is a Rsense on it so it was probably off
[01:45:55] <andypugh> tom4p: Posssibly, though that name rings no bells.
[01:45:56] <icaro> tom4p, cool! I'm thinking about going pro fisl.
[01:46:29] <pfred1> tlab actually the current sense in the 1825 is strange it senses one of a grid of 4000 mosfets I believe it has
[01:47:05] <tlab> maybe it was the LMD18245 I was using
[01:47:14] <tlab> I thought it was 10A
[01:47:46] <pfred1> tlab I may have the number wrong it is not a project i am currently working on or plan to for quite some time
[01:48:06] <pfred1> tlab its a more down the road sort of a thing with me now
[01:48:28] <pfred1> tlab but for that particular application it seemed the only viable solution to me
[01:48:37] <MattyMatt> breadboard is not rated to handle 10A. I know that much
[01:49:00] <tlab> ya but I was only using a 2A motor
[01:49:05] <pfred1> I've melted breadboard
[01:49:40] <pfred1> the plastic but never had any problems with contacts handling current yet
[01:49:42] <icaro> well guys, I'm going to sleep!
[01:49:46] <pfred1> me too
[01:49:47] <tlab> I guess it was 3A LMD18245
[01:49:58] <icaro> andypugh, tom4p, pfred1 thanx!
[01:53:37] <aa-danimal-shop> JT-Hardinge, are you around? i got my new belts, any tips on changing it for the x?
[01:54:50] <andypugh> breadboard current capacity can be easily increased with solder. And wire, and then more solder.
[01:59:16] <skunkworks> this is interesting.. http://cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101777
[02:00:16] <MattyMatt> the holes in a new breadboard aren't big enough for more than 1A wires :)
[02:00:24] <andypugh> Is "interesting" a synonym for "irrelevant" :-)
[02:00:54] <skunkworks> heh
[02:01:50] <andypugh> Short runs of 0.1" wire can take 10A. Especially if you stop being a copper-using cheapskate.
[02:02:12] <cal> cal is now known as Guest50266
[02:02:12] <Guest50266> SPL311
[02:02:39] <MattyMatt> will emc do CV with 4 axis?
[02:02:40] <andypugh> (err, not .1", I mean whatever the hole size is, not the pitch
[02:03:03] <andypugh> No.
[02:03:06] <cal_> SPL311
[02:03:15] <tlab> think you could control a cnc with a NI DAQ card?
[02:03:17] <andypugh> (Or, rather, I doubt it.
[02:03:39] <skunkworks> andypugh: it will blend moves of up to 6 axis.
[02:03:45] <skunkworks> 9 axis
[02:04:21] <andypugh> It will, bit it doesn't "know" the radius. Consider a 1 mile diameter rotary axis....
[02:04:51] <skunkworks> you would usually use 'inverse time' feedrates then.
[02:05:53] <skunkworks> where you would have a segment of motion through multible axis and say I want this motion to take 'this long'
[02:06:04] <andypugh> Yeah, I am just saying that neither Mach nor EMC know what they need to know to do constant velocity with a rotary axis. (though I assume that with the correct kinematics it can)
[02:06:04] <skunkworks> boy - that is clear as mud.
[02:07:10] <andypugh> So, that "no" up there is a "yes if you build the kinematics"
[02:07:50] <MattyMatt> well I assumed that was compulsory anyway
[02:08:15] <MattyMatt> for anything except a straight 3 axis like mine is atm
[02:09:21] <MattyMatt> poor light stopped play today. light switch broke right after sundown
[02:09:34] <MattyMatt> but first cut tomorrow for sure
[02:09:54] <cradek> can you define what you mean by constant velocity
[02:10:18] <cradek> sometimes when people say that they mean "blending" (don't stop between moves) and emc certainly does that with any moves in all 9 axes
[02:10:29] <skunkworks> I was hoping no one would ask...
[02:10:31] <skunkworks> ;)
[02:10:38] <skunkworks> That is why I said blending...
[02:10:54] <MattyMatt> I mean making a smooth cut while moving 4 axes
[02:11:03] <cradek> CV/blending has nothing to do with "knowing" radius
[02:11:28] <cradek> sorry, what do you mean by smooth?
[02:11:50] <cradek> it will blend adjacent moves (not stop between them)
[02:11:55] <andypugh> blending no, but I assumed that CV meant "constant veolcity"?
[02:12:24] <cradek> you're the one who used that term - I'm asking what you mean by it
[02:12:31] <andypugh> (Actually, I assumed I could spell too)
[02:12:34] <cradek> heh
[02:12:38] <cradek> :-)
[02:14:16] <MattyMatt> I'm not sure what I mean exactly, there's all kinds of interpolation I suppose
[02:14:45] <andypugh> OK, I have it backwards. The linked forum thread uses the phrase "constant velocity" and I was abrieviating.
[02:15:53] <skunkworks> all I am saying is emc is awesome. ;)
[02:16:49] <andypugh> To me "Constant Velocity" means constant cut increment along the cutter path. (and I think it is a meaninless metric considering that you probably care about cut-volume-per-rev more)
[02:17:53] <MattyMatt> e.g. if you particularly want "quaternion interpolation of tool angle to workpiece surface" the emc couldn't know about the desired surface geometry, e.g. it might be cylindrical if you've got a 4th axis rotating the work
[02:18:18] <andypugh> And I was observing that as EMC by default is not told where the rotary axes are relative to each other and to the linear axes, CV along the cutter path is not possible.
[02:18:24] <cradek> so you mean like a cut of a scroll with G1 A3600 X10, will the cutter move along the surface at a constant rate -- the answer is no -- but you could split that into several/many moves and emc would smoothly transition between them without stopping
[02:18:49] <cradek> err I meant C3600 X10 (a scroll, not a helix)
[02:19:48] <cradek> skunkworks is right - a 5 axis cam system generating that scroll would use inverse time, and it would expect the behavior we have
[02:20:14] <MattyMatt> yeah that would be higher level
[02:20:48] <cradek> ok if that's what you meant, you are right, emc doesn't do that :-)
[02:21:06] <andypugh> I am not criticising, just observing that EMC can't do CV because it lacks the information it would need to do so (and for non-trivial kinematics it actually can do it, I think).
[02:21:07] <cradek> I believe no controls do that (but I could surely be proven wrong)
[02:21:28] <cradek> yep
[02:21:56] <cradek> but be careful that if you say "can't do CV" that you define what you mean -- most often when I see people talking about that, they mean blending adjacent moves
[02:22:20] <andypugh> Though it rather sounds like Mach is rather broken, in a way that EMC isn't where rotary axes are concerned
[02:22:30] <cradek> I wouldn't know about that
[02:22:51] <andypugh> I was only going from the info in the forum post
[02:22:51] <cradek> our behavior of rotaries is reliable, as-intended, and well documented :-)
[02:23:05] <cradek> oh I didn't even see that
[02:23:39] <cradek> emc1 in the bad old days had very bad behavior of rotaries - it wouldn't surprise me if mach continued to have remnants of that
[02:23:40] <MattyMatt> my windows laptop will be running the webcam for first cut tomorrow. then I've got the fun of learning how to post on YT
[02:23:54] <MattyMatt> so, I've nothing torun mach3 on :)
[02:24:39] <skunkworks> * skunkworks is an instigator
[02:25:01] <cradek> in that forum post, "CV" is being used to mean blending of adjacent moves
[02:25:37] <andypugh> For future reference, I am a pedant, if I say "Constant velocity", that is what I mean. If I am talking about blending moves, I will say so. I also think that I know enough to know that "CV" in either sense is something of a red herring.
[02:26:27] <cradek> do not take offense because I asked exactly what you meant - I hate guessing what someone means and then giving a (possibly incorrect) answer
[02:26:47] <cradek> pedantry is also a strong suit of mine :-)
[02:27:16] <andypugh> Pedantry is a much under-rated hobby.
[02:27:54] <MattyMatt> the devil is in the details
[02:28:56] <MattyMatt> pedantry is next to cleanliness <- brand new aphorism for your delectation
[02:29:21] <cradek> andypugh: worse is when people naively compare different softwares using ill-defined criteria (invariably buzzwords picked up reading web forums)
[02:29:34] <cradek> not saying you do this - but many people seem to
[02:29:42] <andypugh> Why the heck am I still awake? Goodnight chaps (and chapesses, if there are any)
[02:29:47] <cradek> 'night
[02:29:51] <MattyMatt> gnight
[02:30:25] <MattyMatt> cradek, the ill-informed are actually right about blender UI tho :)
[02:31:12] <cradek> wow, you've found a rare area where I don't even have an opinion
[02:31:42] <BlackMoon> hahaha at status
[02:31:44] <MattyMatt> gmax actually wasn't really any better, so maybe I'm wrong
[02:31:48] <BlackMoon> -tomaw- [Global Notice] Hi all. We just had a minor incident with an automated bot killing web gateway users as they connected. We've since disciplined it and things are back to normal. Sorry for the inconvenience and noise.
[02:31:49] <BlackMoon> -> *tomaw* Can you return the bot back to how it was? j/k.
[02:32:06] <andypugh> And yes, Cradek, you have my sympathy with the buzzword bingo. I can see it woulf be annoying when you have as much invested in the package as you have. even I get defensive with no investment.
[02:34:05] <MattyMatt> users get defensive too, especially when they've paid money ;)
[02:36:01] <cradek> emc users can get double their money back if they don't like it
[02:36:59] <cal_> Question regarding suitability, IBM M50 8188 machine that shows latency numbers of nearly 270K ns. Hopeless or can there be improvement?
[02:37:11] <MattyMatt> do any big manufacturers use it? that is mfrs of machine tools?
[02:37:32] <cradek> smithy and sherline use it exclusively
[02:37:44] <cradek> (they are big manufacturers, but their machines aren't big)
[02:38:50] <MattyMatt> yeah sherline kit caught my eye before I realised plywood & skate bearings were affordable
[02:39:14] <MattyMatt> $2000 for mill + lathe seemed quite reasonable
[02:39:50] <MattyMatt> cal_ 8188 won't run 32 bit code
[02:39:52] <cradek> cal_: sounds unsuitable as-is. maybe you can fix it with a bios setting or smi setting or hardware tweak
[02:40:09] <cradek> (oh I have no idea what that machine is)
[02:40:24] <MattyMatt> duh sorry, I'm thinking of 80188
[02:41:07] <cal_> I've been reading, but do not see a direct path, more like "try this, try that" My own mistakes could easily mask any solution
[02:41:23] <cradek> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?FixingSMIIssues
[02:41:29] <cradek> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?TroubleShooting
[02:41:31] <cal_> No it's not an 8088 ;-)
[02:42:31] <cal_> Model is MT m 8188 RUG I looked it up on the Lenovo site, but that is all for MS systems
[02:42:48] <cradek> is it a laptop?
[02:43:09] <cradek> and what kind of machine do you want to control?
[02:43:19] <cal_> No, Desk top Small Form factor board, that is everything is built on the board
[02:43:33] <cal_> turning
[02:44:23] <MattyMatt> do you know what gpu it has?
[02:45:52] <MattyMatt> if it's nv or ati (like my T30) then the blob driver could be better than the open one
[02:46:52] <MattyMatt> I'm guessing it's usually the gpu driver that causes most latency issues with modern machines
[02:47:53] <cal_> I do not know , can I ask the machine?
[02:48:21] <cal_> a terminal command?
[02:48:34] <MattyMatt> read /etc/xorg.conf
[02:49:23] <MattyMatt> insert name of preferred text editor for read, and I'm not 100% of the filename
[02:49:33] <MattyMatt> ^sure
[02:49:48] <cal_> OK I have read that disabling the sim is not often effective
[02:51:01] <cal_> Thanks for the comments, I need to get out early in the morning.
[02:51:14] <MattyMatt> don't we all :)
[02:53:41] <MattyMatt> I read that servicing a USB2 connection can take 30% cpu
[02:55:15] <MattyMatt> but USB3 only takes 5-6% max
[02:56:37] <MattyMatt> they must have been refering to implementations, because I can't see how the standard affects that
[02:59:39] <MattyMatt> presumably the new host controllers have bigger buffers and dma
[03:05:41] <MattyMatt> it was a USB3 marketing man speaking, so maybe it's all BS
[03:06:48] <clytle374> Be weary of market speak.
[03:07:03] <BlackMoon> lol at 30% cpu
[03:07:20] <BlackMoon> of whitch of my 8 virtual cpus will it be taking 30% from?
[03:07:27] <BlackMoon> no matter I could'nt really care.
[03:07:57] <BlackMoon> but yea, and of what cpu?
[03:08:15] <BlackMoon> a p200 or a 2ghz AMD or a 3ghz i720?
[04:18:17] <elmo40> when the hell is USB3 coming out?
[04:19:09] <elmo40> should have been here back in '07
[04:20:43] <elmo40> says Linux supported it back in Sep '09
[04:20:53] <elmo40> but win7 hasnt...
[04:21:08] <elmo40> though, Intel wont support it until 2011?
[04:22:02] <elmo40> but i would like to see how the Intel 'light peak' is coming along... 10Gbps !
[04:45:20] <MattyMatt> USB3 is available. lotsa add-in cards & external drive boxes etc available now
[04:46:45] <MattyMatt> I was thinking along the lines that if you've got terrible latency, it might help to ditch a few modules like the USB core
[04:47:18] <MattyMatt> and the network card, if you're not using it
[04:48:32] <MattyMatt> floppy driver etc :)
[04:49:14] <MattyMatt> I gotta ditch that one
[05:05:35] <elmo40> from the /etc/modules list?
[05:15:14] <Jymmm> Just disable what you dont need in BIOS.
[05:16:06] <elmo40> exactly
[05:49:15] <Jymmm> ROTFLMAO http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bptmb0Ygmus
[11:03:39] <kthk> Hi I tried to path vanilla with rtai-3.8 I have missing asm/bitsperlong.h any solution?
[11:08:49] <kthk> any rtai-3.8 expriency?
[11:17:39] <archivist> very few do their own, most use the prebuilt live cd to get going
[11:20:01] <JT-Dev> yep
[11:48:24] <kthk> archivist: Thanks I only tried because I am running gentoo that I can rebuild every thing
[12:14:17] <archivist> gentoo is the hard way :)
[12:16:21] <JT-Dev> archivist do you think I can grind a 14.5 degree cutter for that aluminum rack gear from a drill bit?
[12:18:59] <archivist> worth a try
[12:19:16] <frallzor> I agree
[12:22:45] <archivist> * archivist disappears to look at a toy
[12:23:15] <JT-Dev> ok
[12:23:59] <JT-Dev> soon as I get done with my piece of dry toast and diet water I'll give it a go
[12:24:16] <JT-Dev> if I'm not too full
[13:08:46] <JT-Hardinge> * JT-Hardinge gives up on the drill bit idea and moves on to the single point cutter idea
[13:09:24] <JT-Hardinge> a google search on how to sharpen a single point end mill gives 100 pages of people trying to sell you something
[13:55:25] <skunkworks> llo
[13:55:29] <skunkworks> heh
[14:22:19] <toastydeath> you have to go to the library and look up older machine shop manuals
[14:22:31] <toastydeath> they usually go over how to sharpen endmills
[14:23:09] <toastydeath> if you can find the manual for your tool grinder, i think that has it too
[14:26:52] <JT-Hardinge> the tool grinder is my dremel tool :)
[14:27:24] <JT-Hardinge> well it drilled into some wood so it must be kinda close
[14:33:03] <tom4p> JT-Hardinge, if you can find the manual for a Thomas Deckel cutter grinder, the 1st lesson is a single lip cutter
[14:37:16] <JT-Hardinge> thanks tom4p
[14:56:21] <tom4p> a good description of the geometry can be handy http://www.u-marqusa.com/tutorials/UNIV-300/universal%20choosing%20cutters.pdf
[15:07:18] <tom4p> I found a pdf sharpening small tools (tho i dont like joining to get the pdf, i felt this one was worth it ) at Scribd http://www.scribd.com/doc/9231295/Sharpening-Small-Tools
[15:12:03] <pcw_home_> pcw_home_ is now known as pcw_home
[15:16:44] <JT-Work> tom4p: thanks
[16:02:27] <pcw_home> JT-Work: how's the Hardinge project going?
[16:04:00] <JT-Work> pcw_home: coming along well, I still need to flash the new 5i20
[16:04:39] <JT-Work> getting down to the details now :)
[16:04:45] <pcw_home> Maybe we should RMA that one, send you a new one. I'd like to see whats wrong
[16:05:04] <JT-Work> ok, I can do that
[16:05:40] <MattyMatt> does anyone grind tools in a mill, with a dremel stone in the spindle?
[16:06:19] <JT-Work> * JT-Work heads back to the home shop
[16:08:12] <pcw_home> Wish me luck, its vaccination/hoof trimming time for the sheep hope it doesn't turn into a clown rodeo
[16:08:36] <MattyMatt> tie them doggies down
[16:09:24] <SEALIVE> hi from germany it's raining outside at 14°C
[16:09:44] <MattyMatt> same in UK. spring is here
[16:10:22] <SEALIVE> question someone onlyne has a steelkey table and can look into it i need to find out what 1.4083 is
[16:10:51] <aa-danimal-shop> well i scored a little dell optiplex gx270 today at a yard sale
[16:11:00] <aa-danimal-shop> think i might use it for the lathe
[16:11:01] <SEALIVE> if i can mill this or only wirercuting to this steel
[16:11:52] <frallzor> * frallzor is enjoying nice food on a piece of wood
[16:12:53] <SEALIVE> wood is not good for your teeth
[16:13:10] <SEALIVE> and also has no calories
[16:13:41] <frallzor> germans eat the stuff food is served on? =)
[16:14:19] <aa-danimal-shop> oak has calories
[16:14:57] <frallzor> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UZnufXATW7k/SApKMy3gRuI/AAAAAAAAABM/cJfD_NFY3Zg/s400/planka.jpg yumyum
[16:17:24] <frallzor> this dish might a swedish thing, cant find an english word for it
[16:17:29] <SEALIVE> frallzor: lookas not finishd yet
[16:17:54] <SEALIVE> need more head
[16:18:20] <SWPadnos> don't we all
[16:18:26] <frallzor> haha :P
[16:18:48] <frallzor> give me head then!
[16:18:49] <frallzor> :P
[16:18:59] <frallzor> (if you are a girl)
[16:19:01] <SWPadnos> sorry, I don't have any to spare
[16:19:17] <Jymmm> frallzor: Try #twodollawhore
[16:19:24] <SEALIVE> so long going out to church BB till later!
[16:19:40] <frallzor> '
[16:19:51] <frallzor> I didnt understand any of what he said =)
[16:19:58] <frallzor> germans and english...
[16:21:27] <Jymmm> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QPAtageTSo&NR=1
[16:22:02] <JT-Hardinge> aa-danimal-shop: you around
[16:23:24] <Jymmm> I ares kollage edjoomakated --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0hTmj3f4Zo&NR=1
[16:28:19] <Jymmm> You can drill four holes at once????? http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/tls/1652654151.html
[16:29:24] <tom4p> http://www.zagar.com/products/drillheads/drillheads.html
[16:29:42] <aa-danimal-shop> yep
[16:29:46] <aa-danimal-shop> for a minute
[16:29:49] <aa-danimal-shop> whats up
[16:30:40] <Jymmm> tom4p: 142?! fsck me
[16:32:25] <aa-danimal-shop> JT-Hardinge, got my belts in for the lathe
[16:32:35] <aa-danimal-shop> i'm gunna change them this weekend
[16:33:04] <aa-danimal-shop> guess it wasnt that interesting lol
[16:34:32] <JT-Hardinge> hmm, lost my connection
[16:34:40] <frallzor> http://pici.se/p/large/VWKgqULZu/ slow and steady
[16:35:02] <JT-Hardinge> aa-danimal-shop: yours might be different but on mine I had to loosen the encoder coupling and remove the encoder
[16:35:44] <JT-Hardinge> then loosen the tacho coupling and remove the 4 bolts that look like they hold the tacho mount on but really hold the motor on
[16:35:56] <JT-Hardinge> remove the tacho
[16:36:07] <JT-Hardinge> slide the motor back a bit then remove the coupling
[16:36:27] <JT-Hardinge> change the belt and reverse the above
[16:36:41] <aa-danimal-shop> ah ok, thanks!
[16:37:16] <aa-danimal-shop> my tach is on the resolver and fine home switch mount
[16:37:50] <aa-danimal-shop> i just scored another computer at a yard sale that i'm going to put in the HNC
[16:38:03] <JT-Hardinge> cool
[16:38:04] <aa-danimal-shop> it's a dell optiplex gx270
[16:38:27] <JT-Hardinge> the part that tripped me up was sliding the servo motor back to get the tacho coupling out of the way
[16:38:34] <aa-danimal-shop> someone got usable latency numbers from one according to the list
[16:39:13] <aa-danimal-shop> hmm yea mine's a bit different, my tach and resolver are mounted to the ball screw
[16:39:32] <aa-danimal-shop> the motor is down by it's self
[16:39:41] <JT-Hardinge> yours might be easier
[16:40:09] <aa-danimal-shop> yea, i already had the z apart, it cant be a ton different than that
[16:40:25] <aa-danimal-shop> belts were $9 each
[16:40:33] <aa-danimal-shop> so i got a few of them
[16:40:42] <aa-danimal-shop> spares
[16:41:23] <aa-danimal-shop> crap i gotta run, thanks for the tips
[18:31:25] <ac_woes> anyone know if it's reasonable to expect a precise 120Hz half period from the standard AC outlet?
[18:33:59] <JT-Hardinge> +-10%
[18:34:58] <ac_woes> 10%??????????????
[18:35:12] <ac_woes> are you joking or serious?
[18:35:23] <anonimasu> serious
[18:35:33] <ac_woes> wait wait, i don't think i was being clear
[18:35:58] <tom3p> the electric bill sometimes states what is guaranteed, usually pretty loose tolerance
[18:36:47] <ac_woes> typical ac outlet is a 60Hz sine wave, right? so ideally, it'd have 8333 us of positive, and 8333us of negative, right?
[18:38:31] <WalterN_> ugh, how do I cange solidworks from metric to inch?
[18:38:32] <ac_woes> a full-cycle is pretty much 16.67 ms, but the half-point -- is it really at the ideal half-point? or is the wave typically like 10000us of positive and 6667us of negative, etc?
[18:39:30] <ac_woes> so, are the positive and negative durations constant across cycles? if not, is it reasonable to expect a half-point deviation of +/- 100us (shocker)?
[18:44:04] <WalterN_> there we go
[18:44:48] <MattyMatt> can't solidworks use a mix of metric & inch?
[18:45:01] <tom3p> ac_woes: for thge precision you're looking for, you'd better get a scope and look, where you are, and look several times a day, and several samples a week/month. the power company will NOT talk to you about uSecs, much less mSecs.
[18:45:53] <WalterN_> MattyMatt: donno, probably
[18:45:54] <tom3p> if you need a time base, you can buy/build one that is as good as a crystal can be
[18:46:26] <MattyMatt> you can do better than a crystal
[18:47:00] <ac_woes> tom3p: ah, that's the thing. i checked with the scope, and i'm seeing +/- 100us deviation of zero-crossings. very unexpected.
[18:47:09] <MattyMatt> you can PLL to a radio broadcast from an atomic clock in US & UK
[18:47:19] <ac_woes> MattyMatt: seriously?
[18:47:35] <SEALIVE> hi from Germany
[18:48:05] <ac_woes> atmospheric noise...
[18:48:13] <MattyMatt> yeah look at 10Mhz references. radio hams have a lot of them online
[18:48:24] <MattyMatt> someone here linked to a good one
[18:49:10] <SEALIVE> someone here how can tel me the incredience of 1.4083 steel
[18:49:35] <MattyMatt> the broadcast is used to calibrate an oven-controlled crystal, so you've still got high precision if you lose the broadcast
[18:49:47] <tom3p> Did you mean: ingredients  ? (said google)
[18:50:10] <SEALIVE> Yes
[18:51:10] <tom3p> http://www.metal-part.com/non-acid-resisting-steel-1.htm
[18:52:54] <SEALIVE> tom3p: Thanks 28%cr
[18:53:11] <SEALIVE> i think that's imposible to mill
[18:53:36] <tom3p> edm :)
[18:53:43] <tom3p> funkerodieren
[18:55:24] <SEALIVE> wirercut makes 40.000EUR for this contract 130part's
[18:55:43] <SEALIVE> try to reduse the overall costs
[18:56:04] <SEALIVE> do you think that steel can be waterjeted
[18:56:47] <SEALIVE> i think i will order a part and then test out what the best way to do!
[18:57:23] <anonimasu> most likely yes
[18:57:31] <tom3p> dunno, chromium is a kkiller for edm, but i dont think thats a problem for jet or abrasive jet ( much lower precision than wedm )
[18:57:56] <anonimasu> roughing by waterjet(abrasive) and finishing with other process is efficient
[18:58:04] <SEALIVE> what is the min edge radius of water jets at 1inch thick
[19:04:07] <alex_joni> SEALIVE: you can only cut using waterjet, not shape
[19:04:33] <alex_joni> should be around 1mm or a bit more
[19:04:51] <alex_joni> (it's called kerf width, if I understand what you are asking)
[19:07:23] <SEALIVE> yes i think thats it at 90degree edge
[19:08:08] <alex_joni> ah, sorry.. misread it then
[19:09:35] <SEALIVE> i got 130 parts with 3 holes eatch and eatch hole is 380mm of cuting length
[19:09:48] <MattyMatt> ac_woes, a big rotary converter would clean up your ac
[19:10:12] <SEALIVE> at 1 inch thickness of the stellblock
[19:10:59] <MattyMatt> would holes cut with a plasma be acceptable?
[19:11:24] <MattyMatt> for roughing at least, it's cheap
[19:11:33] <SEALIVE> no i think thats the case wy the costomer asks fpr wirercut
[19:12:12] <MattyMatt> if they ask for wirecut, give them that. they pay
[19:13:02] <SEALIVE> thats 128 rolls of cutwire 8lbs eatch
[19:13:22] <tom3p> SEALIVE: re 1.4083 (aka 446 in USA ) "Slow speeds and positive feeds combined with rigid mounts and sharp tooling surfaces optimize machining 446."
[19:13:40] <SEALIVE> i think my mashine will brak down at the 640 houre
[19:15:57] <SEALIVE> i will offer them the price and will ask for a tryout part to cut the costs by half
[19:16:18] <SEALIVE> if its possible to HSC cut
[19:16:40] <SEALIVE> and only wirecut the edge to .1mm radius
[19:17:34] <SEALIVE> if got 4 HAAS VF2 & 6 MiniMill to run
[19:17:38] <MattyMatt> that sounds like a plan
[19:19:06] <SEALIVE> thank you for the information of the steel now i now why they dont di that themself!
[19:19:09] <tom3p> ask your tooling suppliers for info on cuttin 1.4083, i didnt find it at sandvik tho
[19:19:24] <SEALIVE> couse they have more mashines then i got
[19:19:27] <anonimasu> check dormer
[19:20:09] <anonimasu> or better, call sandvik and talk to a app specialist
[19:20:59] <tom3p> sandvik went up to 17% but not 28% ( hard stuff!)
[19:21:51] <tom3p> dormer is sandvik i think
[19:22:10] <frallzor> yup
[19:22:16] <anonimasu> hm... they have different tooling
[19:23:09] <tom3p> yah, i just mean they were bought up
[19:23:23] <SEALIVE> i use HOLEX
[19:29:51] <ac_woes> MattyMatt: thanks, i'm going to check out your fm pll idea
[19:29:59] <ac_woes> good day to all
[19:30:54] <SEALIVE> BY i go to bed it war's a rough day Thanks you for your help
[19:31:10] <alex_joni> s/war's/was
[19:32:34] <MattyMatt> freudian slip, he's making weaponry
[19:34:32] <MattyMatt> maybe not, he's worried about the cost to the customer :)
[19:37:37] <MattyMatt> right I need a network on my emc machine. I came in here to ask a question and now I've forgotten the details
[19:41:42] <alex_joni> heh
[19:51:45] <isssy> hi all
[20:15:00] <anonimasu> pcw
[20:15:12] <anonimasu> nvm... another day :)
[20:15:16] <toastydeath> fff
[20:43:00] <pcw_home> anonimasu?
[21:01:34] <anonimasu> I were going to ask about the bitfile for the 7i47 when do you think you'll have time to do taht?
[21:01:48] <anonimasu> (I'm not in a big hurry)
[21:02:39] <pcw_home> I'll do it Monday, sorry I didn't get to it earlier (I made up the pin file but didn't compile it)
[21:02:56] <anonimasu> that's awesome!
[21:03:32] <anonimasu> I were expecting it to take a week or something :)
[21:05:26] <pcw_home> Ive been fighting the Xilinx tools on another project or I would have had it done sooner. really just a 10 minute job
[21:06:29] <ries_> ries_ is now known as ries
[21:09:09] <alex_joni> pcw_home: wouldn't it be something to ask jepler too?
[21:09:32] <alex_joni> I mean the automatic building of bitfiles.. maybe it's enough to send the pin file, and he can also compile it?
[21:10:10] <pcw_home> Yes, he would need the new pin file
[21:18:01] <MattyMatt> If a motor stops while accelerating, but sounds like it's still accelerating, does that mean for sure that it's actually stalling? It seems too repeatable and all 3 axes are doing it atm
[21:18:18] <MattyMatt> this is while jogging
[21:21:11] <archivist> that is stalling, reduce acceleration and top speed
[21:22:00] <MattyMatt> ok, thanks
[21:23:52] <MattyMatt> oh yeah, what's the diff between MAX_ACCELERATION and STEPGEN_MAXEXCEL?
[21:24:36] <MattyMatt> just in practical terms, what should they be relative to each other?
[21:27:03] <MattyMatt> I'll just keep them equal for now
[21:27:31] <MattyMatt> STEPGEN_MAXACCEL I meant of course
[21:28:25] <SWPadnos> the max accel/vel are the fastest the trajectory planner will ask a motor to move
[21:29:04] <SWPadnos> stepgen (or PID) need a little extra headroom to accomplish this, because by definition they don't do anything until after the motion controller has asked them to move
[21:29:41] <SWPadnos> the stepgen would never be able to catch up if it had the exact same limits as the trajectory planner
[21:35:48] <MattyMatt> aha, that explains the little hunt it does at the end of a jog move right now
[21:36:05] <MattyMatt> right, so that should be little higher
[21:39:31] <MattyMatt> and the limits in [TRAJ] are applied to the vector, after the individual axes are constrained? and that should be set high while I'm speed testing the axes?
[21:45:48] <alex_joni> TRAJ limits have been dropped lately
[21:46:05] <alex_joni> in practice there's no real use to scale the vector
[21:46:21] <alex_joni> have each axis tuned properly, and emc2 will always obey that
[21:49:09] <Jymmm> alex_joni: heh
[21:56:11] <MattyMatt> well my Z can jog at 11ipm, and my X at 90ipm . yay ballscrew
[21:58:59] <MattyMatt> I'm measuring 2x the displayed speeds, but I think that's a mismatch between halfstep/fullstep in the ini and on the board
[21:59:26] <SWPadnos> that's what stepconf is there for
[21:59:34] <SWPadnos> or a text editor
[22:00:05] <MattyMatt> text editor for now, so I don't have to put the pins in again
[22:01:23] <MattyMatt> I have motors plugged into all drivers, just in case I enable the wrong one, but I can't do that forever
[22:02:17] <Jymmm> O_o
[22:03:13] <MattyMatt> I woulda thought the driver chips would have thermal shutdown and short protection like a modern audio amp, but I'm not taking chances :)
[22:03:37] <MattyMatt> the driver board is by far the most expensive part I've used
[22:03:58] <archivist> drivers are of no use unless they can stand 100% duty
[22:04:02] <Jymmm> MattyMatt: Your building a CNC, not a band =)
[22:04:05] <WalterN_> what is the command for an unconditional goto Nxxx line?
[22:04:41] <MattyMatt> well it occured to me I should tune the 3 axis velocities into a pleasing chord :)
[22:06:04] <MattyMatt> to assuage the luddites
[22:06:05] <Jymmm> MattyMatt: as long as that "chord" is of wood
[22:06:36] <archivist> MattyMatt, see daisy.ngc
[22:07:11] <archivist> WalterN, just rethink a bit and use if/else etc
[22:11:58] <WalterN_> nvm
[22:12:02] <WalterN_> got it
[22:15:36] <MattyMatt> 11ipm v 90 ipm with a 1:8 pitch ratio between M8 & posh ballscrew. that means that regardless of load these motors just crap out above a certain constant speed
[22:16:35] <MattyMatt> which is less than 300rpm
[22:16:47] <WalterN_> meh
[22:16:51] <archivist> steppers are not fast and do rapidly lose torque with speed
[22:16:53] <WalterN_> I dont really like solidworks
[22:17:13] <Jymmm> WalterN_: u suck
[22:17:26] <Jymmm> WalterN_: ok, why not?
[22:17:45] <WalterN_> cause I cant get it to do what I want
[22:17:49] <WalterN_> :P
[22:17:54] <Jymmm> WalterN_: u suck
[22:18:06] <MattyMatt> it looks easy in the demo vid :)
[22:18:12] <Jymmm> lol
[22:18:14] <WalterN_> it decided to stop snapping to the edge of the solid for some reason
[22:18:36] <anonimasu> you turned it off :)
[22:18:52] <WalterN_> how?
[22:19:07] <Jymmm> WalterN_: Oh, that's a 1D10T error
[22:19:09] <archivist> or changed to a excessively small grid
[22:19:22] <MattyMatt> "and I just *click*click*click* this mechanism is now constrained to this pin joint"
[22:19:42] <Jymmm> WalterN_: ;)
[22:19:54] <MattyMatt> blender can do a lot of that kind of thing actually
[22:20:11] <WalterN_> Jymmm: enh... its just hard to find things in solidworks, I prefer CSI concepts
[22:20:50] <Jymmm> WalterN_: What does Crime Scene Investigation concepts have to do with CAD?
[22:20:57] <WalterN_> so how do I turn snapping back on? assuming that its turned off
[22:21:14] <MattyMatt> G key?
[22:22:19] <MattyMatt> complete guess, but that should do the trick 90% of the time with a well designed UI :)
[22:24:12] <WalterN_> Jymmm: http://www.csi-concepts.com/cuproduct.htm
[22:24:32] <MattyMatt> I suppose if you are required to learn a lot of apps, one of those Lebedev keybs could actually be cost effective
[22:25:54] <Jymmm> WalterN_: How much is it?
[22:26:24] <WalterN_> I dont remember
[22:26:28] <WalterN_> probably too much
[22:26:41] <Jymmm> WalterN_: $10 $200 $4000 ???
[22:26:41] <WalterN_> the student edition I got was $200
[22:26:45] <Jymmm> ah
[22:27:12] <WalterN_> I think it was something like $1,000 or more
[22:28:18] <Jymmm> Looks like they stole ideas from Maya/Blender
[22:29:00] <WalterN_> which are both uber complicated to use
[22:29:28] <Jymmm> Maybe that's why they have specific jobs for that alone.
[22:30:40] <MattyMatt> they won't tell you the price, and the UK reseller says it's discontinued in favour of Shark FX
[22:31:55] <WalterN_> maybe, a while after I bought mine a different company bought it
[22:33:16] <MattyMatt> aha, 1000gbp, or 125 for student
[22:34:58] <WalterN_> this is really annoying
[22:38:07] <L84Supper> L84Supper is now known as L84Canucks
[22:39:30] <WalterN_> assuming that edge snapping is off, how do I turn it on?
[22:40:36] <archivist> its a document property
[22:41:11] <L84Canucks> L84Canucks is now known as L84Supper
[22:42:55] <WalterN_> what?
[22:43:38] <WalterN_> oh, there
[22:43:51] <WalterN_> yay
[22:43:56] <WalterN_> I love solidworks now
[22:43:59] <WalterN_> well
[22:44:03] <WalterN_> (heh)
[22:47:29] <VernonM> haha
[22:48:12] <WalterN_> donno why it turned snapping off though...
[22:53:46] <Jymmm> lol
[22:54:02] <Jymmm> WalterN_: Oh, that's a 1D10T error
[22:54:31] <WalterN_> right, but not knowing how it happened dosnet help any
[22:55:01] <Jymmm> WalterN_: dont click like a mad man
[22:55:33] <Jymmm> perhapse
[22:55:53] <WalterN_> meh
[23:03:56] <TD-Linux> I want to build a emc-compatable stepper motor controller, where would I look for designs?
[23:04:11] <TD-Linux> I'd rather make something serial or USB controlled
[23:04:17] <anonimasu> then you are shit out of luck
[23:04:21] <TD-Linux> I don't know if there are existing protocols I should implement or not
[23:04:38] <TD-Linux> anonimasu: why would that be?
[23:04:44] <Jymmm> EMC doesn't support USB at all
[23:04:57] <alex_joni> TD-Linux: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Emc2HardwareDesign
[23:04:59] <TD-Linux> I could write a driver I suppose
[23:05:05] <TD-Linux> emc supports plugins doesn't it?
[23:05:13] <anonimasu> usb is shit for realtime stuff
[23:05:40] <WalterN_> how about firewire?
[23:05:46] <TD-Linux> anonimasu: but it doesn't have to be "realtime"
[23:05:52] <TD-Linux> as in, I can offload some of the work
[23:06:01] <alex_joni> TD-Linux: for emc2 it needs to be
[23:06:13] <TD-Linux> alex_joni: what data does the driver recieve?
[23:06:20] <alex_joni> see the link above
[23:06:23] <TD-Linux> a sequence of positions and timeframes?
[23:06:39] <anonimasu> you might aswell replace emc alltogther and do everything with the drives
[23:08:30] <TD-Linux> anonimasu: looks like that might be the best option
[23:08:42] <WalterN_> how about 10/100/1000 ethernet?
[23:08:49] <TD-Linux> latency is the issue
[23:09:05] <TD-Linux> seems that emc2 wants to be able to pulse the motors itself
[23:09:06] <TD-Linux> oh hmm
[23:09:24] <TD-Linux> actually it seems like the driver does, indeed, just get timestamps and positions
[23:09:36] <TD-Linux> and all motion control is delegated to the driver
[23:10:00] <TD-Linux> therefore I could rip out the HAL and write my own
[23:10:03] <anonimasu> TD-Linux: why do you want to replace emc and do everything on the drives?
[23:10:06] <TD-Linux> and perform all servo control on my driver
[23:10:27] <anonimasu> it's pretty stupid, because there are driver options for servos/steppers and it works great
[23:10:36] <TD-Linux> I have no parallel port
[23:10:52] <WalterN_> you can get a parallel port card
[23:10:56] <TD-Linux> not for a laptop
[23:11:10] <TD-Linux> and using a whole desktop for control seems a bit wasteful
[23:11:15] <anonimasu> well, that's another probem they are pretty shit for realtime
[23:11:28] <Mortez> could one use only parallel port and ULN2004 etc. to drive a unipolar stepping motor?
[23:11:42] <TD-Linux> I kind of wanted the GUI of emc, not the controller part
[23:12:04] <TD-Linux> can the emc software spit out gcode to a serial port?
[23:12:10] <alex_joni> there are parport cards for laptops
[23:12:11] <WalterN_> TD-Linux: donno, I would rather have a deticuated computer system for each machine
[23:12:15] <alex_joni> pcmcia or cardbus
[23:12:30] <alex_joni> but as anonimasu said, laptops are potentially bad for machine control
[23:12:31] <WalterN_> *dedicated
[23:12:35] <TD-Linux> WalterN_, well, my machine is very... small :P
[23:12:49] <Jymmm> Laptops are kinda bad for it too, due to timing, power management, etc
[23:12:53] <TD-Linux> hence why I'd rather have a small avr or something do control
[23:12:59] <WalterN_> then build a small computer box for it :P
[23:13:17] <alex_joni> itx
[23:13:21] <anonimasu> do you want to cut parts or reinvent the wheel?
[23:13:30] <TD-Linux> reinvent the wheel I think
[23:13:32] <anonimasu> that's the big question, lots of people have tried and failed the same stuff..
[23:13:34] <alex_joni> maybe he wants to cut wheel parts
[23:13:34] <pfred1> I just got done ordering a PCI parallel port card for my EMC junker over here
[23:15:09] <pfred1> * pfred1 sacrificed more spinzola to the CNC Gods in hopes of getting something running someday!
[23:15:25] <TD-Linux> yeah I will probably just dump EMC, it's probably overkill
[23:15:32] <TD-Linux> anyway the device is a pencil engraver ;)
[23:15:49] <anonimasu> hm... sounds like just a job for emc
[23:15:50] <WalterN_> wild
[23:16:01] <pfred1> TD-Linux can't justify that mad software cost huh?
[23:16:12] <TD-Linux> no, can't justify the hardware cost
[23:16:37] <TD-Linux> nor the hardware size :P this thing is supposed to be portable ish
[23:16:41] <pfred1> TD-Linux the port card is all I spent on the machine I run EMC on is a trashbin junker
[23:16:51] <TD-Linux> ... portable ish :P
[23:17:11] <TD-Linux> would a 60MHz pentium run EMC?
[23:17:12] <pfred1> TD-Linux its a desktop tower i can pick it up
[23:17:32] <Jymmm> As in engrave on the side of a pencil?
[23:17:59] <alex_joni> it would probably run emc2
[23:18:09] <alex_joni> but none of the recent GUIs
[23:18:18] <alex_joni> you could have the GUI on the laptop though
[23:18:20] <pfred1> that'd be cool to have business cards infected with nanobots that'd engrave your company name wherever you put it down
[23:18:38] <Jymmm> pfred1: lol
[23:18:54] <Jymmm> pfred1: I think that's called digital graffiti
[23:19:01] <pfred1> here let me leave one of these for you on your desk ...
[23:19:37] <pfred1> solar activated of course wouldn't want to get your ass tattooed
[23:20:30] <pfred1> * pfred1 reads too many Gibson and Stephenson stories ....
[23:23:00] <pfred1> talking about sci-fi I flipped on the tube while I was eating lunch today and sow some joker on one of the science channels claiming that there would be dragonfly sized spy UAVs in 3-5 years from whenever the show was made!
[23:24:33] <pfred1> I found that thought more than a little disturbing to say the least
[23:25:48] <MattyMatt> what's more disturbing is that it'll be a real dragonfly :)
[23:26:16] <pfred1> MattyMatt no the guy had some CAD app up on a screen with the design
[23:26:59] <pfred1> looked like they were really working on the stuff to me
[23:27:17] <DaViruz> will it have a miniature fusion power gnerator?
[23:27:51] <pfred1> DaViruz they didn't say how any of the stuff was powered they already had a 6" disc shaped thing
[23:28:26] <DaViruz> designing a decent simple lathe ATC is proving to be difficult :/
[23:28:32] <pfred1> guy said the prop in it was so small though it barely worked in air because the air molecules were too big for it or something
[23:29:01] <pfred1> DaViruz whats an ATC?
[23:29:08] <DaViruz> automatic tool changer
[23:29:19] <pfred1> don't they usually use turrets?
[23:29:23] <aa-danimal-shop> i'm trying to access a windows folder on my network through my emc machine. It prompts me for a username and password, but i dont have one. i'm trying to read how to make it work, but i keep reading about samba. do i need that to just drag and drop a couple files onto my windows machine or vice versa?
[23:29:46] <DaViruz> yeah
[23:29:51] <anonimasu> aa-danimal-shop: what windows?
[23:29:55] <aa-danimal-shop> xp pro
[23:30:06] <anonimasu> then you have a username like administrator
[23:30:53] <pfred1> aa-danimal-shop and if you're anything like most Windows users then your password is the null string :)
[23:30:53] <anonimasu> it says something when you log in dosent it?
[23:31:28] <aa-danimal-shop> it wont let me log in
[23:31:36] <aa-danimal-shop> what's the null string?
[23:31:46] <aa-danimal-shop> 0000?
[23:31:47] <anonimasu> nothing just enter a username
[23:31:48] <pfred1> aa-danimal-shop nothing empty
[23:31:52] <aa-danimal-shop> ah ok
[23:31:59] <aa-danimal-shop> i'll give it a try
[23:32:04] <pfred1> its Windows why bother setting a password?
[23:32:20] <MattyMatt> DaViruz, turret locking mechanism I've seen is a roller on a heavy sprung solenoid. that was in a big typesetting machine
[23:32:21] <aa-danimal-shop> lol yea not too much can make it worse
[23:32:25] <anonimasu> you can always enable the "guest" account
[23:33:42] <pfred1> MattyMatt I'd rather have some sort of a screw in lock that way it'd hold the turret down in position too
[23:34:22] <aa-danimal-shop> hey that seemed to work, thanks
[23:34:38] <pfred1> aa-danimal-shop you awesome system crack you!
[23:34:53] <WalterN_> hi aa-danimal-shop
[23:35:59] <pfred1> I guess until my parallel port card comes I can always start in on building another motor driver over here
[23:36:39] <MattyMatt> the roller goes into a groove with round bottom and straight sides, so it locks&locates in 1
[23:36:47] <pfred1> now that I have a sample to copy it should go a litle easier on me
[23:37:04] <aa-danimal-shop> hi WalterN
[23:37:16] <aa-danimal-shop> yes pfred1, i'm a computer hacker
[23:37:30] <aa-danimal-shop> now if i could only figure out how to send email
[23:38:16] <aa-danimal-shop> well time to swap out the computer in my lathe, wish me luck
[23:38:18] <WalterN_> aa-danimal-shop: I'm drawing up a ruger 10/22 receiver right now, you can have the .dxf if you want when I'm done to make your own
[23:38:29] <pfred1> this is the card I ordered: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815166007&cm_re=parallel_port_card-_-15-166-007-_-Product
[23:39:39] <pfred1> when i write a review I think I'll say i am using it with EMC2
[23:40:04] <aa-danimal-shop> ha cool
[23:40:07] <aa-danimal-shop> thanks
[23:40:18] <pfred1> gotta spread the word you know?
[23:40:28] <aa-danimal-shop> i'd like to make my dad a side piece for when he goes hunting
[23:40:39] <WalterN_> well
[23:41:33] <WalterN_> the 10/22 is really only good for practice
[23:41:38] <frallzor> side piece = minigun!
[23:41:42] <WalterN_> or small things
[23:41:49] <aa-danimal-shop> coyotes?
[23:42:08] <WalterN_> sure
[23:42:20] <WalterN_> I mean... its a .22lr
[23:42:30] <WalterN_> what do you expect?
[23:42:54] <pfred1> WalterN_ so what do you do buy a barrel then make all the other parts?
[23:43:03] <WalterN_> no
[23:43:14] <WalterN_> only make the part the feds try to regulate
[23:43:21] <WalterN_> :D
[23:43:22] <pfred1> oh
[23:43:29] <WalterN_> (the receiver)
[23:43:57] <pfred1> I thought they stopped all of that nonsense?
[23:45:20] <aa-danimal-shop> cool, the computer i picked up at a yard sale has a 400gb HDD and 2 gigs of good pc3200 ram
[23:45:37] <aa-danimal-shop> that's going in something other than my lathe lol
[23:45:39] <pfred1> it'd be cool to make an CNC EDM to rifle barrels I think
[23:45:51] <aa-danimal-shop> i scored
[23:46:01] <WalterN_> pfred1: they dont EDM them
[23:46:12] <pfred1> aa-danimal-shop yeah its unreal what people even throw out these days let alone yard sale
[23:46:29] <pfred1> WalterN_ you can rifle in a variety of ways there is no hard and fast rules
[23:46:52] <pfred1> WalterN_ some even chemically etch the riflings
[23:46:53] <aa-danimal-shop> yea, got the whole computer with a nice nec lcd monitor, and an all in one printer/scanner/copier all for $80
[23:46:54] <WalterN_> pfred1: gun drill, then they basically extrude the rifles with what they call a button
[23:46:57] <WalterN_> well
[23:47:18] <WalterN_> thats the most popular way to make a barrel in USA, europe likes to hammerforge
[23:47:46] <pfred1> WalterN_ yeah but what the big boys cna do as opposed to what i can do are three different things
[23:48:05] <WalterN_> the button rifling process is quite simple really
[23:48:16] <pfred1> WalterN_ I even saw a video once of a guy who makes kentuckey long rifles the old fashioned way
[23:48:17] <WalterN_> its just a hydraulic thing
[23:48:19] <MattyMatt> button is probably the cheapest method
[23:48:52] <pfred1> WalterN_ and by old fashioned way i mean he had a wooden twisty thing he slid by hand
[23:48:53] <WalterN_> you will need to fingure out how to make the hole long and straight
[23:49:13] <MattyMatt> laser bored :)
[23:49:16] <pfred1> but the guns he made were beautiful
[23:49:23] <WalterN_> and find a place that will make the button out of carbide
[23:49:47] <WalterN_> or something just as good
[23:50:03] <MattyMatt> a traditional shaper is still prefered by marksmen, I read
[23:50:27] <WalterN_> where the rifles are cut out?
[23:50:33] <WalterN_> on a lathe
[23:50:34] <MattyMatt> yeah
[23:50:44] <WalterN_> *shrug*
[23:50:55] <WalterN_> I dont think it matters these days
[23:51:35] <WalterN_> the button method is cheap easy and well defined anymore
[23:52:11] <MattyMatt> DU bullets are usually fired from a smooth bore anyway :)
[23:52:25] <WalterN_> DU?
[23:52:30] <DaViruz> depleted uranium
[23:52:32] <pfred1> MattyMatt I can imagine don't want any of that dust around
[23:52:34] <MattyMatt> uranium
[23:52:39] <WalterN_> ah
[23:52:58] <WalterN_> or sabot it
[23:53:02] <MattyMatt> guns aren't for firing, they are for waving with intent
[23:53:03] <pfred1> or is it sabot shot?
[23:53:21] <pfred1> yeah thats what I'd do with the stuff would tend to not want to touch it if at all possible
[23:53:55] <pfred1> MattyMatt not around here it gets too crowded in season to to go the beach so all of us locals shoot to pass the time
[23:55:44] <pfred1> technically you're supposed to have 5 acres in order to shoot on your property but by me we all do it anyways
[23:56:38] <pfred1> I can easily clear the building restriction thats all that worries me
[23:58:05] <MattyMatt> I'd put that effort into rockets
[23:58:32] <pfred1> MattyMatt there might actually be laws against rockets here
[23:58:49] <pfred1> MattyMatt but not guns ;)
[23:59:07] <WalterN_> where is here?
[23:59:13] <MattyMatt> we can't to either, although rockets seem to be allowed now
[23:59:16] <pfred1> WalterN_ Delaware
[23:59:21] <WalterN_> hmm
[23:59:33] <pfred1> WalterN_ we have a permit to carry concealed thats it
[23:59:44] <WalterN_> most places you can test any size engine you want
[23:59:53] <WalterN_> states