#emc | Logs for 2010-03-13

[00:00:09] <MattyMatt> w00t! I just moved my first axis :)
[00:00:22] <Kirk_Wallace> Is TWM the UI where you have to mouse an arc on the window corner to resize?
[00:00:44] <pfred1> Kirk_Wallace it was a long time ago I remember hitting the tab key a lot
[00:01:50] <pfred1> my favorite lightweight WM is WindowMaker
[00:02:22] <Kirk_Wallace> MattyMatt: So, you are no longer a vir.... an EMC2 newbie?
[00:02:49] <pfred1> Kirk_Wallace I thnk that happens after you cut your first part no?
[00:02:54] <MattyMatt> I'm no longer an infant. I got hairs but I haven't made my first cut yet
[00:03:19] <MattyMatt> gotta set up a vidcam for that
[00:03:32] <Kirk_Wallace> MattyMatt: Congratulations.
[00:04:22] <pfred1> MattyMatt yeah what kinds of speeds are you getting?
[00:04:38] <Danimal-office> congrats MattyMatt !
[00:05:19] <MattyMatt> I just tested with 30mm/s, but gravity was assisting because the machine's on its side
[00:05:45] <MattyMatt> nice and quiet, but it's my ballscrew axis, the others are allthread
[00:06:09] <MattyMatt> not quiet enough for further testing tonight :) it's gone midnight
[00:06:42] <pfred1> MattyMatt I always work on stuff late at nite i remember once i built a power supply and had to fire it up before i went to bed and the thing blew up
[00:07:04] <MattyMatt> momma's house. wooden room, no fire extinguisher
[00:07:08] <pfred1> MattyMatt I never knew how loud TO-220 packags were when they exploded!
[00:07:47] <pfred1> 3 AM and it was like I was setting off fireworks in my house!
[00:08:19] <MattyMatt> when I have my own house, there will be explosions ..oh yes
[00:08:47] <MattyMatt> momma fierce
[00:09:01] <pfred1> no you don't ever want explosions in your house now when i do initial power ups of power supplies i do them outside at the ends of long extension cords
[00:09:17] <MattyMatt> strong walls, light roof
[00:09:34] <MattyMatt> it's good for earthquakes and tonados too :)
[00:10:08] <MattyMatt> I need strong walls for the gantries in every room
[00:10:23] <pfred1> I think i still have the incorect data packages for those regulators lying around someplace here
[00:10:51] <Kirk_Wallace> MattyMatt: You will need to make something nice for your mother with the CNC, maybe engrave a sign?
[00:11:10] <pfred1> there was nothing left on the board but the center tab legs
[00:11:21] <pfred1> the rest of the packages vaporized
[00:11:42] <MattyMatt> she runs an antique shop off stuff she gets cheap at auctions. I have to get fancy to compete with the carvings she gets
[00:12:03] <MattyMatt> plenty of inspiration off that 19th C furniture
[00:12:37] <pfred1> you'll need to make one of those laser point cloud 3D scannerthings
[00:12:38] <clytle374> pfred1, I think your math was bad. like more than a factor of 10
[00:12:52] <pfred1> clytle374 with what?
[00:13:35] <bill2or3> I watn to make one of those, but the software part seems hard.
[00:13:48] <MattyMatt> pfred1: I'm gonna do that with my machine. no laser just a slit of light and a fixed camera
[00:14:01] <clytle374> um, probably the vaporized components
[00:14:19] <pfred1> clytle374 no the blister packs had the inputs and output legs reversed on them
[00:14:20] <MattyMatt> fluorescent tube will work as well as a laser
[00:15:05] <MattyMatt> I'll arrange the slit so it can be opened to use the light as a worklight
[00:16:11] <pfred1> bill2or3 I've seen some websites with people who have made homemade ones
[00:18:15] <MattyMatt> bill2or3: I'll do the software. the tricky bit is getting a cam with enough res that I don't need to scan across the table
[00:18:40] <bill2or3> by 'across the table' you mean "from far away" ?
[00:19:13] <bill2or3> I think there's a quickcam that does 1280*1024, or maybe a 'real' camera with chdk firmware on it would work.
[00:19:33] <MattyMatt> no I mean attaching cam to X motion and doing a 2d scan. slow and extra complicated software
[00:19:47] <MattyMatt> even 1280 pixels across 14" isn't much
[00:20:18] <bill2or3> I was thinking about using a rotary table, and a stationary camera.
[00:21:04] <bill2or3> * bill2or3 runs off.
[00:21:13] <MattyMatt> yeah that was an old plan of mine, but I've got a 3d table now :)
[00:21:51] <MattyMatt> I can use it as a mini film set and everything
[00:21:55] <pfred1> it loks like there's two software projects for 3D scanners to me maybe one and the other is the libeary for it
[00:22:12] <pfred1> http://cadauno.sourceforge.net/
[00:23:46] <MattyMatt> 3d point clouds are tricky. if you know it's a solid surface the software is much easier
[00:24:04] <pfred1> MattyMatt even easier with sourceforge :)
[00:24:29] <MattyMatt> yep :)
[00:25:08] <MattyMatt> when I said "I'll do" the software, I didn't necessarily mean I'd start from scratch :)
[00:25:32] <pfred1> so far all I'm seeing here is a windows exe though no code
[00:25:34] <MattyMatt> I was wearing my sys analysis hat
[00:27:07] <pfred1> ah its under develop
[00:27:39] <pfred1> http://cadauno.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/cadauno/CADauno.JPG?revision=6&view=markup
[00:28:23] <MattyMatt> I will start one from scratch tho, because it'll need a GUI and it'll probably run it through emc
[00:28:30] <pfred1> looks like a pretty good start to me if not a working setup
[00:29:19] <MattyMatt> a library to convert the point cloud into polys will be handy
[00:29:53] <MattyMatt> or nurbs is good, they can go directly into gcode
[00:31:28] <pfred1> it does seem awfully light on documentation
[00:31:39] <MattyMatt> if I have to scan 2d though, I might as well use a depth probe
[00:32:09] <pfred1> light documentation is a common failing with FOSS
[00:39:48] <clytle374> I've heard developers say the same thing about MS.
[00:41:04] <MattyMatt> msdn is pretty good
[00:41:20] <MattyMatt> but hard to get into, and find when you're panicking :)
[00:43:22] <pfred1> MattyMatt don't run your pacemaker with M$ products
[00:43:41] <MattyMatt> I wouldn't run my ATM on them :)
[00:44:04] <MattyMatt> but banks are stupid, we all know that now
[00:44:06] <pfred1> MattyMatt now that would be cause for panic
[01:39:01] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[01:51:33] <MattyMatt> nice upgrade project http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Cadet-CNC-Lathe-for-spares-or-repair_W0QQitemZ280476439875
[01:53:29] <MattyMatt> "swing over bed" is that radius or diameter?
[01:53:44] <pfred1> usually diameter
[01:54:10] <pfred1> I think in england it used to refer to radius
[01:54:14] <MattyMatt> I read british quote radius usually
[01:54:38] <pfred1> not so sure if even they still go with that though
[01:54:55] <MattyMatt> yeah, only 9 zeros in billions these days :)
[01:55:10] <MattyMatt> we still say colour and theatre though
[01:55:34] <pfred1> * pfred1 speaks American ...
[01:55:35] <MattyMatt> english is FOSS language
[01:56:10] <pfred1> really I htink its because the English were weak and lots of different people overran them over the years
[01:56:33] <MattyMatt> that's what it was. they lured us in and now we eat curry
[01:57:00] <pfred1> yes they do have the biggest mosque in the world in england now don't they?
[01:57:01] <MattyMatt> and corn snacks :)
[01:57:23] <MattyMatt> and potatoes, but the spanish got the gold
[01:58:16] <MattyMatt> it was the largest. I expect there are bigger in Dubai these days
[01:59:10] <pfred1> still funny place for a big mosque if yo uask me
[01:59:37] <MattyMatt> you'd think the arabs would be thankful for all those straight borders we gave them. easy to patrol
[01:59:45] <pfred1> * pfred1 admires his latest PCB art
[02:00:20] <pfred1> its like a Picasso!
[02:00:40] <MattyMatt> I used to doodle in the corners, when I made them with a pen :)
[02:00:59] <pfred1> I used to use that rat shack rub on stuff years ago
[02:01:01] <MattyMatt> it saves the etchant :)
[02:01:23] <pfred1> some etchants are regenerative and copper makes them stronger
[02:01:23] <MattyMatt> yeah I used the transfers for dip pads
[02:01:57] <pfred1> the next batch I'm going to try is supposed to be that way
[02:02:38] <pfred1> I was looking at boards today and photo resist boards have really come down in price
[02:03:00] <pfred1> and perfboard has really gone up
[02:03:46] <pfred1> this board is so cool I'd like to etch it
[02:04:50] <MattyMatt> I'm gonna try milling next
[02:05:06] <pfred1> nah that doesn't interest me in the least I think its a bad idea
[02:05:16] <pfred1> copper mills like crap its so stringy
[02:05:54] <MattyMatt> you're mostly milling the board, as the copper is so thin
[02:06:05] <pfred1> yeah there's that too
[02:06:27] <MattyMatt> that's a good thing, IMO
[02:06:30] <pfred1> in any event i don't see myself ever doing it
[02:06:41] <pfred1> nah fiberglass is horrible stuff to machine
[02:07:34] <MattyMatt> if you don't go into the fibres, it's just resin+filler
[02:07:52] <pfred1> sort of boards I'm interested in making milling can't achieve that sort of resolution
[02:07:54] <MattyMatt> anyway it looks good on video
[02:08:21] <pfred1> heh youtube videos?
[02:08:36] <pfred1> lord knows whats going on in them
[02:08:42] <MattyMatt> sable maker's site
[02:10:04] <MattyMatt> yeah tracks are getting finer, but if I wanted really fine I'd order one through plated
[02:10:33] <pfred1> I suppose i could buy everything i wanted
[02:11:14] <pfred1> lord knows there's enough break out boards out there for sale lots better than what I'm making too
[02:11:29] <Danimal-office> phew! finally get to take a break
[02:11:49] <Danimal-office> what's the topic of the evening?
[02:12:01] <pfred1> Danimal-office was milling PCBs
[02:12:11] <pfred1> Danimal-office want to see my reversed board art?
[02:12:15] <MattyMatt> I think I can run my machine off the one parport, if 4 limit switches is enough
[02:12:38] <pfred1> MattyMatt you don't have to have any limit switches
[02:12:44] <Danimal-office> sure, although i really dont know much about what i'm looking at
[02:13:12] <Danimal-office> i'm only a machinist :)
[02:13:14] <pfred1> Danimal-office don't need to can just appreciate how clean it is :) http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/567/ppbbr4brdr.png
[02:13:25] <MattyMatt> pfred1: that's good :) because I ain't got them yet. I do want a machine I can leave alone for 5 minutes though
[02:13:39] <pfred1> MattyMatt you can set soft limits in emc
[02:13:54] <Danimal-office> looks nice!
[02:14:00] <pfred1> Danimal-office thanks
[02:14:20] <pfred1> Danimal-office I color some signals so when I'm siring it up I can follow them easier
[02:14:24] <pfred1> wiring even
[02:14:39] <Danimal-office> smart
[02:14:47] <pfred1> Danimal-office usually when I make a board i do all the grounds then all the hots than all the other junk
[02:15:19] <Danimal-office> makes sense
[02:15:31] <pfred1> it has worked for me
[02:15:49] <Danimal-office> i wanna make an isolated output board
[02:16:01] <pfred1> this one has all the outputs isolated
[02:16:09] <pfred1> well inputs
[02:16:22] <pfred1> well OK just 4 ofthem i didn't want to throw another opto on it
[02:16:33] <Danimal-office> lol
[02:16:44] <MattyMatt> ls245 isn't really isolation, unless you get 5V from the hot side
[02:17:02] <pfred1> MattyMatt yeah htose are the outputs the inputs are optoed
[02:17:12] <pfred1> MattyMatt and the outs go to optos so ....
[02:17:20] <Danimal-office> although i can buy one cheaper than i can make one
[02:17:47] <PCW_> PCW_ is now known as PCW
[02:17:55] <pfred1> MattyMatt its sort of silly to have optos driving optos don't tou think?
[02:18:23] <MattyMatt> it depends which wire shorts :)
[02:18:24] <Danimal-office> i think PCW is going to have a big sale on 7i37's. perhaps 50% off
[02:19:10] <Danimal-office> hint
[02:19:17] <Danimal-office> :)
[02:19:47] <pfred1> Danimal-office you don't run off parallel ports do you?
[02:19:53] <Danimal-office> hell no
[02:20:00] <pfred1> yeah i didn't think so
[02:20:07] <Danimal-office> mesa stuff
[02:20:11] <MattyMatt> ls373 instead and you could implement the whole parport
[02:20:37] <pfred1> MattyMatt I wanted higher source and sink currents
[02:20:49] <MattyMatt> i/o address decoding is trivial, on the pci bus
[02:21:31] <pfred1> MattyMatt 245s are 24 ma
[02:21:52] <MattyMatt> I thought all TTL was roughly the same
[02:22:29] <pfred1> look at what a 245 does it has to offer something you know?
[02:23:14] <pfred1> no its higher than most other chips
[02:24:09] <pfred1> 14 ma is typical current fot TTL
[02:24:44] <pfred1> 245s are dumb chips they spent too much time pumping up at the gym!
[02:24:47] <MattyMatt> TI ls373 can sink 24ma too
[02:25:44] <pfred1> isn't is a D latch though?
[02:25:44] <Danimal-office> i can bench 24ma
[02:25:44] <MattyMatt> yep, which is what you need to actually implement the parport
[02:25:44] <pfred1> yeah i just want a buffer
[02:25:44] <pfred1> I don't want the data latched ever
[02:26:04] <pfred1> all it does is boost the current capacity of the port
[02:26:41] <MattyMatt> up to proper spec :) in the old days the spec was 20ma
[02:26:46] <pfred1> MattyMatt you do realize that they haven't put 373s into PCs in about 20 years now right?
[02:27:06] <pfred1> there was never a spec
[02:27:19] <pfred1> tday you're lucky if you get 3 ma out of a parallel port
[02:27:25] <MattyMatt> yes there was, centronics
[02:27:51] <pfred1> my buffer draws .00045ua
[02:28:13] <pfred1> or something silly like that i forget now
[02:28:33] <pfred1> its ua i remember that
[02:29:01] <tom3p> 20ma was needed to drive the coil on a teletype
[02:29:22] <pfred1> tom3p and 20 ma went out with the teletype too!
[02:29:27] <MattyMatt> I've got a PC portable to restore. looks like both floppies are broken though
[02:30:03] <pfred1> tom3p I did a lot of reading about parallel ports and the more i read the more concerned I got
[02:30:29] <pfred1> nothing today guarantees much more than 3 ma out on ports it seems
[02:30:45] <MattyMatt> it saves power :) all the inputs are cmos
[02:31:25] <tom3p> look at 8255 cards like http://www.futurlec.com/PCI8255.shtml
[02:31:45] <pfred1> I got a few of those ICs hanging around
[02:31:50] <pfred1> PIOs aren't they?
[02:31:57] <tom3p> a buck a point
[02:32:10] <tom3p> yep 'like' z80 pio
[02:32:17] <MattyMatt> 8080 pio
[02:32:25] <tom3p> write cmd, write data pull trigger
[02:32:26] <pfred1> yeah i was always partial to the Z-80
[02:32:31] <MattyMatt> z80 had a more advanced one :D
[02:32:42] <pfred1> got a bunch of them too
[02:33:02] <pfred1> think i have a jap 16 MHz one someplace
[02:33:03] <MattyMatt> which nobody bought of course, along with their DMA and interrupt managers
[02:33:42] <pfred1> I got a whole tube of 8251s
[02:33:43] <MattyMatt> I'll get those are in modern z80 clones tho
[02:33:48] <MattyMatt> ^bet
[02:34:03] <pfred1> full
[02:34:29] <pfred1> oh its a UART
[02:34:41] <pfred1> not much call for those I suppose
[02:36:10] <MattyMatt> I'd rather use ls373 myself. 40 pin dips are a lot of board space
[02:36:48] <MattyMatt> plus they'd degrade 8 bits at a time
[02:36:49] <pfred1> the 8255 you could multiplex 3 busses
[02:37:09] <pfred1> least i think thats what it did
[02:37:22] <MattyMatt> yeah you get 24 bits
[02:37:39] <pfred1> which would be handy for memory decoding or some such
[02:38:28] <pfred1> all I know is I got a heck of a lot less 8255s than 8251s
[02:39:09] <MattyMatt> you'd have to decode the 0x2F8 etc with gates
[02:40:16] <pfred1> when i built memory decoders I'd strobe counters
[02:40:17] <MattyMatt> and decide where LPT3 & 4 are going to go :) I think there's a common choice already
[02:40:54] <pfred1> that way you just built a counte up to top of memory then strobeed int oit for any address
[02:41:08] <pfred1> decode the whole thing in one shot
[02:42:38] <pfred1> they put the port addresses in the bios now right?
[02:42:53] <MattyMatt> yeah for the mobo port
[02:43:11] <MattyMatt> usually a choice of 2F8 or 3F8
[02:43:21] <pfred1> wouldn't the bios grab the peripheral info at boot?
[02:43:27] <MattyMatt> aka LPT1 & 2
[02:43:52] <pfred1> mine seems to like to probe the whole system then
[02:44:01] <MattyMatt> the bios would be unaware of extra ports, unless you put a boot eprom on the board
[02:44:08] <pfred1> bitches whenever anything is different too!
[02:46:19] <MattyMatt> 5 in and 11 out is awkward for ls373. 4 inputs would make it easier
[02:46:47] <pfred1> 12 out isn't it?
[02:47:23] <MattyMatt> dunno :) when I was up to date, the strobe pulse was generated by a timer chip
[02:47:30] <pfred1> least EMC seems to think it can use 12 outs
[02:48:10] <pfred1> I haven't tried them all myself so I don't really know
[02:48:23] <MattyMatt> centronics only had 11, but IBM could have added one
[02:49:03] <pfred1> well I went with the pin out page in an EMC manual and built my buffer to match it
[02:49:18] <pfred1> I'll let you know how it goes
[02:49:23] <MattyMatt> they totally rearranged the DB25 from the common one which used a ribbon
[02:50:13] <pfred1> I'm using a riser out of a PC for my DB-25
[02:50:31] <pfred1> just cut the double header off it and will solder the wires direct
[02:51:51] <pfred1> I got a really nice yamaichi locking connector but figure why use it?
[02:54:29] <MattyMatt> I don't need a breakout box thanks to hal-config
[02:55:10] <pfred1> me either thats why I called my circuit a buffer board
[02:56:25] <MattyMatt> you could get power from a usb port
[02:56:52] <pfred1> MattyMatt sure but then what'd I do with all of my 7805s?
[02:56:59] <MattyMatt> :)
[03:00:13] <MattyMatt> does anyone multiplex a single parport? using a few lines as addresses?
[03:00:32] <MattyMatt> would emc2 support that?
[03:02:10] <SWPadnos> I don't know of anyone doing more than one line to double the number of I/Os
[03:02:49] <pfred1> yeah if they need more the trend seems to be to get a mesa board
[03:03:01] <SWPadnos> and yes, EMC2 does support it, either with a somewhat slower read rate (using a flip-flop to swap between the two ports before reading), or by making some trivial additions to the parport driver
[03:03:22] <MattyMatt> cool
[03:03:47] <SWPadnos> yeah. at $79 for the cheapest 7i43, it's hard to justify much work to make a dumb parallel port have more inputs
[03:03:51] <MattyMatt> I'm more interested in more inputs first, so I can have more sensors etc
[03:03:54] <pfred1> I might have to look into making a design for a controller card someday
[03:04:24] <MattyMatt> yeah mesa is probably the way to go
[03:04:49] <pfred1> if you need that much IO
[03:05:14] <MattyMatt> although usb is probably the future, at my end of the scale
[03:05:27] <SWPadnos> if you value your time at roughly zero, then Mesa isn't worth it
[03:05:29] <pfred1> I'm not running coolant pumps or motoer VFDs
[03:05:50] <SWPadnos> if you value your time at anything approaching a dollar an hour or more, then you might as well buy something
[03:05:51] <pfred1> SWPadnos I only do CNC to kill time its a hobby
[03:06:06] <SWPadnos> in that case it can be fun to design stuff yourself
[03:06:09] <pfred1> SWPadnos I'm not very good at golf
[03:06:19] <SWPadnos> and it's too expensive anyway ;)
[03:06:22] <MattyMatt> I want temp sensors, jog wheels, more than 4 error switches etc
[03:06:41] <pfred1> MattyMatt you wire limits in series
[03:06:42] <SWPadnos> as long as you don't care about realtime inputs, USB is fine
[03:07:04] <SWPadnos> note that jogwheels work much better in RT than they do in userspace
[03:07:07] <MattyMatt> USB is apparently v low latency
[03:07:09] <pfred1> or is it parallel? either way yo uget more than one a line
[03:07:26] <SWPadnos> for pure input, it's not too bad, but "low latency" is relative
[03:07:37] <MattyMatt> USB3 I mean
[03:07:49] <SWPadnos> oh. well good luck with that
[03:07:49] <MattyMatt> compared to 2, which can use a lot of cpu
[03:08:00] <pfred1> there's no RT driver for USB is there?
[03:08:18] <SWPadnos> someone was working on a RT-USB driver, but I think it stalled some time ago
[03:08:36] <pfred1> SWPadnos thats a no in my book
[03:08:37] <SWPadnos> CPU usage and latency are not relevant to one another
[03:08:51] <MattyMatt> I think the RT parts would have to run on the far side of the USB link
[03:09:07] <SWPadnos> yes, so you're then building a computer to run HAL
[03:09:13] <MattyMatt> yep
[03:09:17] <SWPadnos> so you might as well buy a small computer to run HAL instead
[03:09:20] <pfred1> yeah I've thought about it that way myself
[03:09:31] <MattyMatt> and then you can use any handy laptop to manage it
[03:09:37] <SWPadnos> like the $80 atom mini-ITX board people like so much
[03:09:55] <SWPadnos> and you can use your laptop to manage it over the network
[03:10:08] <SWPadnos> with remote desktop, remote X, or NML over ethernet
[03:10:17] <pfred1> I like how EMC does it now
[03:10:25] <SWPadnos> there's no need to run the user interface on the same PC as the motion control
[03:10:33] <pfred1> can't find too many good laptops in the trash yet
[03:10:49] <SWPadnos> and with a fully loaded PC costing $200 or so, there isn't much need to make a single-use USB peripheral, IMO
[03:11:18] <SWPadnos> (that's $200 for all new parts, in a relatively small form factor)
[03:11:26] <MattyMatt> I'm thinking of selling a hobbyist machine, with all the high power wiring inside
[03:11:36] <MattyMatt> white goods
[03:12:06] <SWPadnos> like I said, good luck with that. I don't think designing for USB3 will be all that easy
[03:12:07] <pfred1> MattyMatt take it from a hobbyist we'd rahter make our own machines
[03:12:11] <SWPadnos> USB4 hi-speed is hard enough
[03:12:15] <SWPadnos> err, USB2
[03:12:18] <MattyMatt> that would have to be usb & ethernet, even a single parport is a bit primitive
[03:13:01] <MattyMatt> pfred1, it depends what hobby :) cakeCAD ftw
[03:13:25] <MattyMatt> I saw a quilting machine on cnczone
[03:13:32] <pfred1> MattyMatt cake decorators would rather do it by hand
[03:14:16] <MattyMatt> I'll find a market somewhere
[03:15:25] <pfred1> personally I don't deal with people that appear to be supporting their hobby through small businesses
[03:16:32] <MattyMatt> I'm a long way off making machines to sell :) nobody would buy a mk1
[03:18:46] <pfred1> I'm a long way off from giving away any of my plans
[03:18:58] <pfred1> but hopefully someday I'll be able to
[03:19:19] <pfred1> because the freebie plans i have seen all are pretty poor
[03:19:49] <MattyMatt> except mechmate of course
[03:19:50] <pfred1> and I've looked at a lot ofthem
[03:20:33] <pfred1> name sounds familiar can't remember them giving anything away though
[03:20:40] <MattyMatt> solsyla's look like the best for $35, but they assume your local hardware store is still all inches
[03:20:54] <pfred1> of course it is
[03:21:05] <pfred1> but $35 isn't free
[03:21:38] <MattyMatt> it would be worth it. their machines are nicely thought out
[03:21:54] <MattyMatt> I stole one or two hints from their photos
[03:21:56] <pfred1> I'm not paying anyone for their thoughts
[03:22:34] <pfred1> sweat maybe if i need more than i can supply
[03:23:19] <MattyMatt> mechmate is the big steel gantry like frallzor's
[03:25:19] <pfred1> oh mechmate requires registration must be why I never checked it out
[03:25:51] <MattyMatt> my design is still fluid, if the table is too slow I'll convert it to belt drive
[03:26:23] <MattyMatt> I'll find that out tomorrow
[03:26:25] <pfred1> I'm going moving table moving gantry it too hard without the right linear slides
[03:26:51] <MattyMatt> yeah that was my thought too
[03:27:07] <MattyMatt> moving gantry does take less space tho
[03:27:18] <pfred1> space i got
[03:27:41] <pfred1> acres of the stuff
[03:27:47] <MattyMatt> nice
[03:28:06] <pfred1> yeah but you'll find no nice linear slides on any of them I'm afraid
[03:28:51] <MattyMatt> get a 6 legged john deere and put a spindle on its nose :) then run gcode2gps
[03:29:11] <MattyMatt> cnc landscaper
[03:29:32] <pfred1> I sort of look forward to mowing the lawn in season its a nice break
[03:29:52] <pfred1> get ot just sit there for a few hours you know? and it still looks like I'm doing something
[03:30:27] <MattyMatt> lawns do very little for me
[03:30:43] <MattyMatt> you need them for kids to play on
[03:30:57] <pfred1> they keep my property from blowing away and my value up too
[03:31:31] <pfred1> I got woodlot too but you can't live in the woods you know?
[03:31:51] <pfred1> it makes your house mold up
[03:33:21] <MattyMatt> there was a beautiful wooden house built in an English wood about 10ya, dunno how it survived
[03:33:56] <pfred1> I need the lawn to keep ctirrers back somewhat
[03:33:56] <MattyMatt> massive regular chemical applications I'll bet. very green
[03:34:22] <MattyMatt> ah yes, field of fire :) less ricochet than flagstones
[03:34:23] <pfred1> woods crawling with all sorts of god knows what
[03:34:49] <pfred1> my snakes clomb trees
[03:34:57] <pfred1> they go right up them I seen them do it
[03:35:34] <pfred1> we got lots of black racers here
[03:35:43] <pfred1> they keep the field mice population down
[03:35:44] <MattyMatt> an acre of gravel would do all you need
[03:35:58] <pfred1> one thing we don't have here is stones
[03:36:22] <pfred1> and stone would get awfully hot
[03:37:16] <pfred1> an acre of gravel would probably set you back oh $20,000 I'm guessing
[03:37:20] <MattyMatt> gravel around here is just ammo for the local kids to throw at your car :)
[03:37:52] <MattyMatt> sheep. the lawnmower you can eat
[03:38:04] <pfred1> I don't care for lamb
[03:38:13] <MattyMatt> but you started saying you enjoyed mowing, so this is all silly
[03:38:17] <pfred1> lots keep goats around here
[03:38:36] <pfred1> yeah once a week I get to veg out and cruise around my yard
[03:39:05] <pfred1> its not that bad
[03:43:37] <pfred1> MattyMatt i got some gravel now http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/5026/p4110020.jpg
[03:44:34] <MattyMatt> nice
[03:46:01] <MattyMatt> hmm plain lsttl would be tricky at PCI speeds. forget the homemade port card
[03:46:02] <pfred1> and a lot of woods: http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/7285/p4110013.jpg
[03:46:26] <pfred1> yeah ttl only good to 50 MHz
[03:46:57] <MattyMatt> 50Mhz would do, just about
[03:47:29] <MattyMatt> if the address decoder is only 2 or 3 gates deep
[03:47:44] <MattyMatt> I thought 30Mhz was more typical
[03:47:54] <pcw_home> We used to have to weed-whack our back yard once a year for fire safety
[03:47:56] <pcw_home> but we got a few sheep and they keep the weeds looking like a lawn
[03:48:22] <pcw_home> normal PCI is 33 MHz
[03:48:27] <MattyMatt> yep
[03:48:55] <MattyMatt> it's often overclocked tho, as it's tied to the system clock
[03:49:10] <pfred1> pcw_home i got enough stuff living in my yard I don't need to bring in more
[03:49:13] <MattyMatt> on a certain vintage of mobo :)
[03:49:39] <pcw_home> Hard if not impossible to meet PCI spec with SSI logic though
[03:50:06] <MattyMatt> yeah especially if you want the p&p
[03:50:49] <MattyMatt> for that' you want to start with an integrated chip, and then add buffers&optos onboard
[03:52:13] <MattyMatt> those chips might be dirt cheap by the 1000, now pci is moribund
[03:53:44] <MattyMatt> ah well. I've see the one I'm getting if I need it. 2 ports 9715 chip (dunno the diff from 9815)
[03:54:47] <MattyMatt> £8.50 + £2.50 from hong kong
[03:55:09] <pcw_home> The sheep are the first livestock we've had and we really enjoy them
[03:55:11] <pcw_home> actually PCI is everywhere but more embedded, hiding behind bridges (PCIE is really PCI as well)
[03:55:12] <pcw_home> just using a serial interface
[03:56:09] <MattyMatt> yeah a pc104+ etc
[03:56:46] <pcw_home> Even on motherboards embedded in chipsets
[03:57:39] <MattyMatt> that's the form factor I'd prefer for embedded HAL, although mini-itx would do
[03:57:58] <Danimal-office> pcw_home, where in CA are you?
[03:58:16] <pfred1> pcw_home I went on an art tour around here once where whese spinners kept sheep
[03:58:35] <pcw_home> Northern CA (Near Berkeley)
[03:58:58] <tom3p> pcw_home, you know these sheep? http://harobedretsiger.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/sheep-11.jpg
[03:59:02] <Danimal-office> Ah ok. i was wondering where you would have enough land for sheep
[03:59:20] <Danimal-office> definitely not much land down here in San Diego unless you got money
[03:59:28] <Danimal-office> which i dont :)
[03:59:34] <pfred1> I'm in Delaware
[04:00:02] <pfred1> I'm wondering if this census we'll break a million people in the state finally?
[04:00:10] <Danimal-office> i have a spacious 7,000sqft lot lol
[04:00:36] <Danimal-office> pfred1, man, we got way more than that in this city alone lol
[04:00:50] <pfred1> Danimal-office theres no one here
[04:01:02] <pcw_home> Lots of hand spinners keep sheep, but we didn't want to have to shear them so we got hair sheep
[04:01:03] <pcw_home> we have an acre (mostly a useless downslope that the sheep now graze
[04:01:06] <Danimal-office> one of my best friends is from Deleware
[04:01:18] <Danimal-office> Delaware*
[04:01:27] <pfred1> pcw_home we don't have hills or rocks either
[04:01:43] <pfred1> place is basically a sandbar
[04:02:05] <MattyMatt> nice, like holland
[04:02:06] <Danimal-office> lol
[04:02:15] <pfred1> Danimal-office you have to say it like this to them, Dela-Where?
[04:02:24] <Danimal-office> ha
[04:02:32] <pfred1> you'
[04:02:40] <pfred1> you're from Dela-Where?
[04:02:57] <Danimal-office> ha i'll have to remember that
[04:03:02] <pcw_home> Never been to the east much except Vermont
[04:03:07] <pfred1> Danimal-office the other bizarre thing aboutthis state is there's only like 3 ways you cna drive to it
[04:03:38] <Danimal-office> keeps people from coming or leaving i guess
[04:03:45] <Danimal-office> does the 95 go through it?
[04:03:46] <pfred1> it does!
[04:03:48] <Danimal-office> i forgot
[04:03:55] <pfred1> it might way up north
[04:04:03] <pfred1> but if it does it just barely does
[04:04:21] <Danimal-office> i thought i saw a sign that sayd welcome to delaware once
[04:04:26] <Danimal-office> said*
[04:04:40] <Danimal-office> on my way to california
[04:04:49] <pfred1> Danimal-office the other thing that drives me nuts is weatherpeople stand in front of delaware when they give forecasts
[04:04:51] <pcw_home> thats going to give me nightmares tomp3...
[04:05:06] <Danimal-office> haha
[04:05:14] <pfred1> Danimal-office you watch its true
[04:05:42] <pfred1> Danimal-office before i moved here i never noticed
[04:06:06] <Danimal-office> lol
[04:06:25] <Danimal-office> yea, who ever noticies delaware? it's so small you can barely see it lol
[04:06:36] <Danimal-office> (thats what she said)
[04:06:39] <MattyMatt> they've worked out the litigation potential if they miss a tidal wave
[04:06:49] <pfred1> Danimal-office when you're here it doesn't seem that small
[04:07:03] <pfred1> Danimal-office town next door to me is 125 square miles area
[04:07:26] <Danimal-office> pfred1, neither did Connecticut when i lived there, but it was smaller than the city i live in now
[04:07:33] <pfred1> I share their zipcode but I'm not actually in it
[04:08:02] <pfred1> worst traffic I've ever seen is in Connecticut
[04:08:06] <MattyMatt> yet
[04:08:22] <Danimal-office> yea, the 95 and the 84 suck at rush hour
[04:08:56] <Danimal-office> i'd take california traffic over connecticut
[04:09:10] <pfred1> I went camping well I never actually went camping but I took the drive and on the way home i sort of fell asleep behind the wheel next thing I know I woke up on I 95 32 miles out of manhatthan stoppedin traffic
[04:09:28] <pfred1> it was backed up all the way!
[04:09:41] <MattyMatt> roll on robochauffeur
[04:09:58] <MattyMatt> rear facing driving seats are safer :)
[04:10:09] <pfred1> hey me and that car i donno either I drove for almost 2 hours sound asleep or i drove for like 18 hours straight
[04:10:18] <pfred1> you pick it
[04:10:30] <Danimal-office> lol
[04:10:53] <pfred1> but last thing i remember i was going down the road like 3:30 AM and a fog was rolling onto the road from these marshes along the side of it
[04:10:54] <Danimal-office> the good thing about CA is everyone does like 80 plus
[04:11:07] <pfred1> next thing i know sun was up and I was stopped i missedm y turn by 150 miles
[04:11:21] <Danimal-office> sounds safe
[04:11:27] <pfred1> they drive like bats out of hell in massachusetts
[04:11:47] <Danimal-office> normally they drive slow
[04:11:52] <pfred1> you get on that masspike and do 100 no one looks at you funny
[04:11:56] <Danimal-office> we call them Massholes
[04:12:18] <MattyMatt> A guy got 10 years for falling asleep at the wheel here
[04:12:36] <pfred1> MattyMatt apparently I'm a pretty good driver sound asleep
[04:12:36] <MattyMatt> OK, he derailed a train
[04:12:56] <Danimal-office> was he driving the drain?
[04:13:12] <Danimal-office> or did he just have a really big car?
[04:13:17] <MattyMatt> no he went off the road and down onto the track
[04:13:33] <pfred1> train should eat a semi truck and keep on going
[04:13:41] <MattyMatt> it was a landrover. big by british standards
[04:13:43] <Danimal-office> how you derail a train and live is beyond me
[04:13:45] <pfred1> I've seen videos of them doing it in fact
[04:14:06] <pfred1> it doesn't evne slow the train down much
[04:14:25] <Danimal-office> crap, time for dinner. adios guys
[04:14:29] <pfred1> bye
[04:14:48] <pfred1> when I lived in florida everyone always raced the freight train there
[04:15:05] <pfred1> because if you had to wait it'd take 45 minutes for the damned thing to go by
[04:15:34] <pfred1> thing had to have been over 2 miles long
[04:15:43] <MattyMatt> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1195963.stm
[04:16:09] <pfred1> now florida is a big assed state
[04:17:01] <pfred1> I went down to key west and then I was like oh I'll go visit my aunt and it took me 8 hours to get to her house from the keys and she is only halfway up the state
[04:17:41] <pfred1> so you're looking at about 14 hours to go from top to bottom of just florida
[04:18:20] <pfred1> when i used to go camping in Maine half the trip was in the state of Mainee itself
[04:19:36] <pfred1> this is one huge lake! http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=46.227591,-69.320297&spn=0.166256,0.243073&z=12
[04:20:40] <pfred1> heck i been to this place and its unreal huge: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=46.217265,-69.346282&spn=0.005196,0.007596&z=17
[04:26:35] <pcw_home> out in the sticks...
[04:28:12] <pfred1> pcw_home up there small sticks are a foot in diameter
[04:29:16] <MattyMatt> ok, enough pics of sunny woodland please. cold dirty town here kthx
[04:29:32] <MattyMatt> damn I need a holiday
[04:30:29] <pcw_home> Figured those little green dots were trees....
[04:30:42] <pfred1> MattyMatt it all may look nice in pictures but there's bugs in these places like can fly off with you!
[04:31:09] <MattyMatt> I've got a laptop now, so if my car was working I could be a road warrior
[04:31:13] <pfred1> I gotta say in season my yard is worse than a swamp in upstate maine
[04:31:28] <pfred1> coz I've spent enough time in both!
[04:32:33] <pfred1> MattyMatt whats wrong with your car?
[04:32:37] <MattyMatt> there were 2 distinct species of 'gnat' in momma's garden last week. that's a bad sign, either the little ones are scottish midges which bite you to hell, or the big ones are mosquitos which give you malaria
[04:33:06] <MattyMatt> car just needs taxes and a new battery
[04:33:33] <pfred1> here we have west nile virus and lyme disease
[04:34:06] <pfred1> hmm I've seen batteries come back if you like pulse charge them knock the oxide off the plates
[04:34:09] <pcw_home> Love those funny names in ME: Chemquasabamticook lake
[04:34:29] <pfred1> pcw_home heh heck white pwople don't go to them places so they're not funny at all!
[04:34:41] <MattyMatt> one good thing about England. everything dangerous was extinct by 1700
[04:34:58] <MattyMatt> except smallpox, that lasted a bit longer
[04:35:10] <pfred1> pcw_home I found out the place i go camping in Maine no one had even gone there til like 1850
[04:35:39] <pfred1> pcw_home before that it was uncharted territory
[04:36:33] <pfred1> and apparently when they went there they sure didn't stay too long either!
[04:36:49] <Danimal-office> pfred1, where was that?
[04:37:01] <pfred1> Danimal-office allagash wilderness waterway
[04:37:03] <MattyMatt> Lost Pond tells a story :)
[04:37:10] <Danimal-office> cool
[04:37:16] <Danimal-office> my parents live in Maine
[04:37:20] <pfred1> Danimal-office paper company gave it all to the feds as a tax break
[04:37:23] <Danimal-office> my dad gre up there
[04:37:27] <pcw_home> We got west Nile here and it going to be a bad mosquito year.
[04:37:28] <pcw_home> Hard to find that kind of out of the way places in CA
[04:37:56] <pfred1> Danimal-office it wasn't economically viable to log so they figured get rid of it
[04:38:03] <Danimal-office> i remember this place called south branch pond
[04:38:10] <Danimal-office> water was soooo clear
[04:38:18] <pfred1> yeah it is amazing
[04:38:30] <Danimal-office> pretrified logs at the bottom could be seen clear as day, and it was REALLY deep
[04:38:47] <Danimal-office> the stream that fed it was blue
[04:38:58] <pfred1> I'd always have some water left in my canteen whenever I got back home and I'd dump it into a clear glass and it'd be clearer than tapwater and it was just lake water by then
[04:39:35] <Danimal-office> yea
[04:39:38] <Danimal-office> i miss that
[04:39:40] <pcw_home> sounds inviting except for the bugs...
[04:39:58] <pfred1> ah as long as you hit it out of black fly season its not bad
[04:40:16] <Danimal-office> pcw_home, yea, my parents built a house in maine last year. first thing they finished was the screened in portch
[04:40:18] <pfred1> its worth it everyone I ever brought up there it changes them
[04:40:49] <pfred1> downstate maine is sorta dumpy
[04:40:49] <Danimal-office> in a deliverence kinda way?
[04:41:20] <Danimal-office> i dunno, my parents live in southern coastal Maine... it's a pretty nice area
[04:41:29] <pfred1> but i can't even see surviving north of freeport not really
[04:41:54] <pfred1> not unless you can live off pine sap or something
[04:41:57] <Danimal-office> my dad grew up in Washburn
[04:42:09] <Danimal-office> look that up on the map :)
[04:42:20] <pfred1> is it north of freeport?
[04:42:37] <Danimal-office> it's pretty close to the tip top of Maine
[04:42:45] <Danimal-office> near Fort Kent
[04:42:47] <pfred1> I never been there
[04:43:01] <Danimal-office> potato fields everywhere
[04:43:16] <pfred1> and not much else i bet
[04:43:19] <Danimal-office> It's where McCain french fries were made
[04:44:05] <pfred1> last time I was in maine i was in bangor and i have to admit it's come into the 20th century a lot
[04:44:24] <pfred1> but years ago man place was like wilderness
[04:44:41] <MattyMatt> lots of lakes there. I lost Lost Pond :)
[04:44:43] <Danimal-office> yea, ll bean does wonders for their economy lol
[04:45:08] <pfred1> that is a nice store its where i buy my fishing license when I go
[04:45:12] <MattyMatt> 'come' into the 20th C?
[04:45:39] <pfred1> MattyMatt once when I was in maine all you could get was 4 AM radio stations two of which were ocming out of canada
[04:45:51] <pfred1> the Fm band was completely blank!
[04:46:24] <pfred1> if that puts it into perspective for you
[04:46:44] <MattyMatt> they are planning to end FM here, except for the digital multiplexes :)
[04:46:51] <Danimal-office> they must have had hd radio
[04:47:10] <pfred1> Danimal-office not in the early 80s they didn't
[04:47:22] <Danimal-office> i know i was kidding
[04:47:45] <Danimal-office> well i guess i dont know, i was an infant in the early 80's
[04:47:49] <pfred1> I grew up within site of NYC so it sort of freaked me out
[04:48:19] <pfred1> and all that car had was a messed up 8 track player in it
[04:48:26] <Danimal-office> lol
[04:48:33] <MattyMatt> the end of radio broadcasting does give a more optimistic conclusion to Drake's equation
[04:48:33] <pfred1> so we listened to the sametape over and over and over
[04:49:12] <pfred1> sometimes it'd play one trakc backwards on one channel and another song forwards on the other
[04:49:34] <Danimal-office> 8 tracks sucked
[04:49:37] <pfred1> which was sort of a nice change of pace
[04:50:17] <Danimal-office> lol
[04:50:20] <MattyMatt> my only memory of 8 track was Space Oddity in quadrophonic in the 70s
[04:50:23] <pfred1> Danimal-office well it was either that or sweedish work musak the logging company was broadcasting
[04:50:53] <pfred1> and we tried the sweedish work musak and it wasn't us
[04:51:05] <Danimal-office> sweedish women are hot
[04:51:16] <pfred1> yeah their musak sucks though
[04:52:00] <pfred1> and i don't understand french so the canadian talk radio wasn't an option for us either
[04:52:04] <MattyMatt> except abba
[04:52:20] <MattyMatt> hot and fairly non-sucky musak
[04:52:21] <Danimal-office> yea, abba
[04:52:45] <pfred1> this stuff was like elevator music but had a distinctly sweedish sound to it
[04:52:56] <pfred1> it was unlike anything I'd ever heard
[04:53:01] <Danimal-office> lol
[04:53:37] <pfred1> we deemed it unfit for human consumption and continued with our one 8 track tape
[04:55:11] <pfred1> who's ready for a good laugh?
[04:56:11] <MattyMatt> always. that's #1 rule of liverpool
[04:56:42] <pfred1> Ok here's a picture of me from a long time ago scanned because there were no digital cameras back then
[04:56:43] <MattyMatt> more important than paying the bills
[04:56:51] <pfred1> http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/8121/maineme.jpg
[04:57:24] <pfred1> MattyMatt that's Chamberlain lake in the background
[04:57:39] <MattyMatt> owen wilson could pull of that hat with that hairdo
[04:58:17] <pfred1> I think i was about 24 when that was taken
[04:59:10] <pfred1> I always do a campaign hat when I camp
[04:59:11] <MattyMatt> ah so maine is fairly flat too. that's a lot less hilly than the english Lake District
[04:59:28] <pfred1> MattyMatt not really those mountains are just really far away!
[04:59:44] <pfred1> MattyMatt you're looking across about 8 miles of water there
[05:00:08] <MattyMatt> ah OK
[05:00:28] <MattyMatt> looks like a good place for water speed records
[05:00:29] <pfred1> mt kathadden is actually pretty damned tall though its not quite inthis picture
[05:00:44] <pfred1> its like a mile tall or something
[05:00:46] <MattyMatt> windermere is only 7 miles long
[05:01:03] <pfred1> chamberlain is over 26 miles long
[05:01:12] <pfred1> you're looking across the narrow way
[05:01:27] <pfred1> though at a diagonal
[05:01:33] <pfred1> which makes it a bit longer
[05:01:52] <pfred1> its about 6 miles wide there straight across
[05:02:20] <MattyMatt> what's the law on living on boats there?
[05:03:02] <pfred1> that picture was taken right about here: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=46.205678,-69.316478&spn=0.001299,0.001899&z=19
[05:04:01] <pfred1> MattyMatt its a national park so you're supposed to pay $5 a day while you're in the park and I think they have a 3 week time limit for being in the park
[05:04:28] <pfred1> but i guess if you cna outrun the ranger anything goes
[05:04:40] <pfred1> heh check this out
[05:05:18] <pfred1> the day we were headed to lost pond we figured it'd be a good idea to drop the hint with the ranger in case yo uknow we dind't come back so when we said lost pond he looked at us funny and said lost what?
[05:05:46] <pfred1> maybe he was just playing with us I don't know but it seemed like he'd never heard of the place
[05:05:58] <MattyMatt> it's well named :)
[05:06:15] <pfred1> hey I found the place
[05:06:24] <MattyMatt> wow, Quebec is your nearest big city. neat
[05:06:27] <pfred1> it wasn't easy but we got there
[05:06:46] <MattyMatt> I could get a candian visa far easier than a US one
[05:07:16] <MattyMatt> as I don't have a degree
[05:08:00] <pfred1> isn't canada part of the uk?
[05:08:11] <MattyMatt> not since 1950-odd :)
[05:08:16] <pfred1> oh
[05:08:32] <pfred1> they seem to still be on such good terms to me
[05:08:51] <MattyMatt> part of the Commonweath though, so there are preferential arrangements
[05:09:02] <tom3p> Danimal-office, watch 'Earth Girls are Easy' Damon Williams, Jim Carey, Jeff Goldblum, Gina Davis. the aliens see a TV commercial with Swedish girls, and go nuts http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSbiL725hVQ&feature=related
[05:09:09] <pfred1> you want to talk about tractless wastes there's nothing quite like canada for that!
[05:09:28] <pfred1> tom3p I got that movie on vhs
[05:09:37] <MattyMatt> and the queen is on their money, and she's not a bad looking bird in the younger portraits :)
[05:09:39] <pfred1> look at the pool toy!
[05:09:53] <tom3p> heh rip it
[05:10:03] <pfred1> no vid cap card
[05:11:04] <pfred1> next machine i build i plan on having that setup though so I can have pseudo tivo
[05:11:46] <MattyMatt> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YpkhIXXSjU&NR=1
[05:11:57] <MattyMatt> just watch it in 10min chunks :)
[05:15:44] <MattyMatt> the 80s were rather vulgar :)
[05:15:58] <pfred1> MattyMatt good fun!
[05:17:36] <Eric_K> was just watching MC Hammer vids with the kids. Big guys dancing in bike shorts, forgot about that
[05:22:38] <MattyMatt> oh no, first musical number
[05:30:27] <MattyMatt> geena davis looks more like a barbie doll than most
[05:46:44] <MattyMatt> I give up. If you can remeber the 80s, you're not trying hard enough to forget
[05:46:51] <pfred1> Windows CE + Windows ME + Windows NT = Windows CEMENT
[06:06:22] <MattyMatt> on the axis setup, the max speed is for no load speed?
[06:06:48] <pfred1> MattyMatt only if you plan on driving nothing
[06:07:48] <MattyMatt> when rapiding I do
[06:07:49] <pfred1> MattyMatt I took it as meaning max speed the app should run the motor at
[06:08:05] <pfred1> MattyMatt no you are still driving the axis
[06:08:29] <MattyMatt> yeah but no workload
[06:08:42] <MattyMatt> no resistance
[06:08:47] <pfred1> MattyMatt driving mechanics to move na axis is a workload
[06:09:06] <MattyMatt> that's overhead :)
[06:09:18] <MattyMatt> payload, I should say
[06:10:00] <pfred1> if you don't lose steps go as fast as you can
[06:10:15] <tom3p> set and test max velocity with full load (vises tooling clamps )
[06:10:50] <tom3p> we used to have edms that moved the tank, so we tested with 120 gallons of oil plus tooling
[06:10:53] <MattyMatt> my spindle is 1/10 the wight of my Z motion
[06:11:04] <pfred1> yeah its so emc doesn't try to run the machine where it can lose steps right?
[06:11:32] <tom3p> any control emc or fanuc or ....
[06:11:47] <MattyMatt> good call on the weight on the table. that affects my Y speed even when rapiding
[06:12:07] <MattyMatt> but it shouldn't affect the other 2
[06:12:54] <MattyMatt> I'll be tuning it as I go, so I'll keep it conservative for now
[08:00:19] <numne> numne is now known as numen
[08:00:31] <numen> moin
[08:51:04] <Valen> hey archivist whats your EMC machine running these days CPU and ram wise?
[10:00:10] <archivist> p4 and a gig on one and an amd 800 meg on the other
[10:00:23] <toastydeath> has anyone played mass effect 2
[10:36:21] <ktc> Hello I am running xenomai-2.5.1 now but emc2 installation need rt path. any howtos?
[10:43:41] <acemi> emc2 doesn't work with xenomai
[10:43:50] <acemi> rtai or rtlinux
[10:45:26] <ktc> Is that I need rtai?
[10:45:38] <acemi> yes
[10:46:07] <ktc> which kernel can be patch for rtai?
[10:47:13] <acemi> there is an Ubuntu based EMC cd which is ready for realtime
[10:47:45] <ktc> I am using gentoo and sabayon
[10:48:02] <acemi> on X86?
[10:48:07] <ktc> Yes
[10:48:16] <acemi> http://cvs.gna.org/cvsweb/vulcano/base/arch/x86/patches/?cvsroot=rtai
[10:48:24] <acemi> this are the rtai patches
[10:48:39] <acemi> for the last stable release
[10:49:31] <ktc> Ok thanks i will try again for this xenomai path takes me two days already
[10:50:55] <ktc> will there be any xenomai emc porting?
[10:52:23] <acemi> AFAIK emc uses floating point number in its realtime part but xenomai has no floating point support
[10:54:32] <ktc> The project xenomai said the rtai was combined is that not real
[10:56:22] <ktc> Thanks I am downloading kernel now goodbye
[11:29:37] <izua_> izua_ is now known as izua
[11:54:14] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[12:17:48] <JT-Dev> I'm trying to set up my RIP on 8.04.4 machine and get this error during ./configure --enable-run-in-place
[12:18:00] <JT-Dev> configure: error: C compiler cannot create executables
[12:18:34] <acemi> disk full or no write permission?
[12:21:48] <JT-Dev> disk empty
[12:22:16] <JT-Dev> where would the config.log be?
[12:22:51] <acemi> src/config.log
[12:24:24] <JT-Dev> this might be a clue
[12:24:28] <JT-Dev> configure:2513: gcc conftest.c >&5
[12:24:30] <JT-Dev> /usr/bin/ld: crt1.o: No such file: No such file or directory
[12:24:32] <JT-Dev> collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
[12:24:44] <JT-Dev> configure: failed program was:
[12:24:46] <JT-Dev> | /* confdefs.h. */
[12:31:44] <JT-Dev> must be missing a package or three
[12:31:45] <acemi> did you install the neccesary packages to compile emc?
[12:33:02] <JT-Dev> on wiki it said they were needed for 9.04 so I skipped it but installing them now
[12:36:20] <JT-Dev> now I get this error
[12:36:21] <JT-Dev> configure: error: version.h not found - Is the kernel headers package installed ?
[12:36:54] <acemi> you need to install RTAI kernel headers package
[12:37:15] <JT-Dev> never mind I have two kernels on this one got to get rid of the non real time on
[12:37:17] <JT-Dev> one
[13:01:56] <JT-Dev> got rid of the other kernels now to see if it boots back up...
[13:05:09] <JT-Dev> seems like that worked
[13:06:23] <JT-Dev> still get this error
[13:06:24] <JT-Dev> configure: error: version.h not found - Is the kernel headers package installed ?
[13:06:50] <acemi> dpkg -l linux-headers* | grep ^ii
[13:07:56] <JT-Dev> ii linux-headers-2.6.24-26 2.6.24-26.64 Header files related to Linux kernel version
[13:07:57] <JT-Dev> ii linux-headers-2.6.24-26-generic 2.6.24-26.64 Linux kernel headers for version 2.6.24 on x
[13:07:58] <JT-Dev> ii linux-headers-2.6.24-27 2.6.24-27.67 Header files related to Linux kernel version
[13:08:00] <JT-Dev> ii linux-headers-2.6.24-27-generic 2.6.24-27.67 Linux kernel headers for version 2.6.24 on x
[13:08:02] <JT-Dev> ii linux-headers-generic Generic Linux kernel headers
[13:08:59] <acemi> there is no headers for rtai kernel
[13:09:34] <acemi> uname -r
[13:09:56] <JT-Dev> 2.6.24-16-rtai
[13:10:14] <acemi> install linux-headers-2.6.24-16-rtai
[13:11:03] <JT-Dev> install: missing destination file operand after `linux-headers-2.6.24-16-rtai'
[13:11:24] <acemi> how did you install rtai kernel
[13:12:45] <JT-Dev> ./emc2-install.sh
[13:12:58] <alex_joni> JT-Dev: sudo apt-get build-dep emc2
[13:13:46] <alex_joni> and acemi probably meant: "sudo apt-get install linux-headers-2.6.24-16-rtai"
[13:13:54] <JT-Dev> alex_joni: thanks
[13:14:55] <JT-Dev> it's busy doing something now :)
[13:17:18] <MattyMatt> red oak makes a good brake pad. I thought a 1/4" shaft in a 1/4" hole would wear itself into a snug fit, it stalled my motor completely
[13:18:44] <Valen> archivist got any spare ram slots? I might be able to hook you up
[13:19:06] <Valen> or rather, how many ram slots do you have?
[13:19:11] <Valen> and of what kind
[13:19:39] <Valen> might help with all those mysql compiles ;->
[13:19:42] <archivist> this box is full iirc unless it will take larger sticks
[13:19:59] <Valen> I have a box of 512 sticks
[13:20:00] <MattyMatt> I've got plenty of 64M pc100/133 for UK postage
[13:20:01] <Valen> DDR
[13:20:44] <Valen> though it'll probably not make too much difference on a gig
[13:21:02] <MattyMatt> I'm now short of bigger ones, since that 128 was bad
[13:21:09] <numne> i have both, but none with 4chips...
[13:21:49] <numne> if anyone need...
[13:22:15] <MattyMatt> not really short. I should take the chance to dump these sub-Ghz no-sata mobos
[13:22:33] <numne> ^^
[13:22:59] <MattyMatt> my old faithful celeron 500 isn't the same without its matrox
[13:24:46] <archivist> Valen, one thing though, it takes an hour to get into this box and reassemble, so Im leaving well alone for a bit
[13:25:16] <Valen> lol you know your not sposed to put the chastity belt on the computer right
[13:27:01] <archivist> best part of 30 screws and some difficult to get at wires and the mains pushon connectors to the mains switch are far too short
[13:27:17] <MattyMatt> my only DDR machine has a slot free but has 2x512 already
[13:27:47] <archivist> iirc this is an older SD ram
[13:28:11] <MattyMatt> it's supposed to be dual channel but the cheap version of the mobo doesn't do it
[13:28:24] <Valen> got 512mb sticks of SD too
[13:29:06] <MattyMatt> I looked at the new price of those when I found mine at the dump
[13:29:06] <Valen> eh, like I said probably not going to see much of a gain anyway with a gig in there
[13:29:21] <Valen> just trying to say thanks ;->
[13:30:23] <numne> MattyMatt i have 2x1gb if you can use
[13:31:05] <numne> but im looking for 256 or 512 with 4chips sd^^
[13:32:05] <MattyMatt> why is it important?
[13:32:53] <numne> MattyMatt i need the chips for my nslu2
[13:33:02] <numne> cause this needs 16bit chips
[13:33:22] <numne> and these are only soldred on 4chip single side or prehaps on 8chips duble sided
[13:33:42] <numne> but you can have the 2 1gb ddr if you need
[13:35:02] <MattyMatt> ah no need thanks, my ddr machine is fine with 1GB
[13:35:24] <numne> ok
[13:51:22] <JT-Dev> I figured out what was wrong... I had a screw loose
[13:56:05] <JT-Dev> acemi: alex_joni it's working now :) thanks
[13:58:06] <JT-Dev> * JT-Dev smacks his forhead on the table and mumbles always use the LiveCD when possible
[14:21:09] <MattyMatt> does the argument against steppers in parallel go away if they are on the same shaft? then it's just a double stack, surely?
[14:24:59] <robotito> may the LiveCD be virtualized?
[14:29:17] <acemi> what do you mean with virtualized?
[14:29:42] <SWPadnos> you can boot and install into a virtual machine, but you can't control real hardware with it
[14:49:50] <robotito> acemi, run on a vm, virtual box for instance
[14:51:36] <robotito> any vmware virtualizer
[15:01:37] <clytle374> MattyMatt, not sure, even with 2 identical motors one might pull more than the other. Surely someone knows for sure.
[15:02:34] <clytle374> 2 x 1A components in parallel don't usually equal 2A exactly.
[15:05:07] <MattyMatt> it shouldn't matter if one pulls more than the other
[15:05:48] <MattyMatt> all my coils seem to be the same DC resistance well within 10%
[15:06:51] <MattyMatt> any back EMF from the dominant one can only encourage the other one, I feel
[15:09:03] <numne> numne is now known as numen
[15:18:49] <SWPadnos> you can use two motors on the same shaft, but you have to use a separate driver for each motor
[15:26:06] <pcw_home> One driver might work, if two rotors on one shaft any different than a longer motor? (and paralleled/series wiring)
[15:26:07] <pcw_home> (well you would want _very_ close alignment between the rotors)
[15:26:21] <pcw_home> (is two motors...)
[15:26:56] <DaViruz> they would need to be very exactly in phase as well i imagine
[15:28:16] <pcw_home> Yes energize both and tighten the coupling (or set them 90 electrical degrees out of phase for 0 torque mode)
[15:43:17] <clytle374> If you can series wire the two motors, I can't foresee a problem. Parallel would probably be okay if you weren't close to max current, and the other steps mentioned were taken.
[15:46:16] <pcw_home> You would also need a 2X current driver (for parallel) or 2X voltage (for series) to get 2X performance
[15:49:59] <clytle374> With no increase in either, you'd probably get less performance. Unless you already had enough to saturate the single motor.
[15:50:15] <clytle374> Which, would probably have killed it.
[15:52:13] <pcw_home> Well for low speeds, the series connection would double your torque with the same driver, but because of the doubled inductance
[15:52:15] <pcw_home> the torque would drop off faster with speed
[15:55:37] <clytle374> yep, I missed that
[15:58:10] <clytle374> And good Ubuntu package for converting units? I have to find my hp48 rom for the simulator I normally use.
[15:58:26] <clytle374> Getting tired of web based apps.
[15:58:38] <SWPadnos> units
[15:58:40] <SWPadnos> bbl
[16:00:42] <clytle374> thanks
[16:14:10] <pcw_home> Yea! chickens are back online
[16:15:00] <clytle374> online chickens? Are the eggs any good?
[16:16:13] <pcw_home> They are laying again
[16:16:46] <pcw_home> production line
[16:17:27] <mozmck> that reminds me, I need to build a henhouse and get some more chickens this year.
[16:18:29] <clytle374> We're starting to free range ours
[16:18:58] <mozmck> That's what I do, but I put them in the house at night.
[16:18:59] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[16:19:00] <JT-Hardinge> SWEEEEET! Almost have all the wires sorted out and 90% of items are working on the Hardinge atm
[16:19:29] <mozmck> keeps them from being owl/bobcat/coyote/mountain lion snacks.
[16:19:59] <JT-Hardinge> now to figure out why the electrons don't make it from the spindle lock switch to the 7i37
[16:20:24] <pcw_home> Not spring chickens anymore so we had an egg gap this winter. First time weve had to buy eggs in 10 years
[16:20:26] <pcw_home> its funny, when we first got the chickens it was a little strange to eat the eggs because "we knew where they came from"
[16:20:27] <pcw_home> then when we bought eggs it was strange to eat them because " we didn't know where they came from"
[16:20:39] <mozmck> clytle374: did you ever get running on karmic? I put up some updated packages.
[16:21:10] <JT-Hardinge> pcw_home: you DO wash them before eating :)
[16:21:20] <clytle374> Our dogs have proven to be the biggest problem, but they cut down on other predators.
[16:21:23] <mozmck> pcw_home: I grew up on "real" eggs, but have been so busy last few years I haven't had chickens
[16:21:40] <mozmck> heh, we had akitas like that
[16:21:46] <clytle374> mozmck, yeah, home rolled kernel runs
[16:22:07] <clytle374> 32-bit only
[16:22:22] <pcw_home> We just have a backyard flock but they are great
[16:22:23] <pcw_home> We've lost our share to dogs and racoons over the years
[16:22:53] <Danimal-office> mornin
[16:22:55] <mozmck> but we finally figured out they were just keeping the chickens out of their food, and started feeding the dogs at night just what they would eat by morning, and no more dead chickens in the dog food dish!
[16:23:11] <JT-Hardinge> Danimal-office: morning
[16:23:19] <clytle374> We're trying shock collars this spring.
[16:23:38] <Danimal-office> how goes it
[16:23:39] <mozmck> clytle374: if you get a chance it would be helpful if you could install my new kernel and tell me if it runs.
[16:23:53] <mozmck> if it's not too much trouble...
[16:23:57] <clytle374> Dogs want the 2 week calf too, but the donkey will kill them if they come close.
[16:24:09] <mozmck> heh, donkeys are good for that
[16:24:10] <pcw_home> Our dog is good with the chickens and sheep but we would not trust him alone with them...
[16:24:25] <clytle374> I've still got a test install set up. I check it out.
[16:24:53] <Danimal-office> JT-Hardinge, flinging chips yet?
[16:24:56] <mozmck> We had a game hen chase our 130 lb male akita about 200 feet one time when he sniffed too close to her chicks.
[16:24:57] <JT-Hardinge> getting close
[16:25:23] <Danimal-office> ha.. we had an akita
[16:25:50] <JT-Hardinge> spindle lock sensor wire was cut and someone put tape on it... no wonder it don't get back to the 7i37
[16:25:57] <JT-Hardinge> no splice just tape
[16:25:58] <Danimal-office> came back with a limp and a bloody face once for getting too close to a buck
[16:26:30] <Danimal-office> hah nice.... sounds like yours was almost as much of a basket case as mine
[16:26:58] <mozmck> Danimal-office: funny! After having akitas for years I have a hard time liking any other dog too much.
[16:27:39] <Danimal-office> mozmck, nice dogs, but only if you're on their good side
[16:28:22] <clytle374> I've got a real good old mutt, when she's gone I'm going to stick with the donkey.
[16:28:24] <mozmck> yeah, we trained them carefully as pups. my little siblings could take a chicken bone away from them
[16:28:27] <Danimal-office> ours made nice work of the neighbor's dogs if one got loose
[16:28:41] <mozmck> while they tried to kill each other over it!
[16:29:01] <mozmck> yep, some neighbors didn't like our akitas as well as we did :)
[16:29:07] <Danimal-office> thats good
[16:29:28] <clytle374> keeps the neighbors out of your stuff.
[16:29:29] <Danimal-office> yea, i'd trust a pitbull before an akita
[16:30:05] <clytle374> I've never bought into bad breeds, just bad owners
[16:30:15] <mozmck> man, not me! in fact, they used to use them for babysitting in Japan.
[16:30:39] <Danimal-office> clytle374, i agree, but there's so many bad owners that it's hard to just trust any dog
[16:31:03] <Danimal-office> and having had an Akita, they would destroy a pitbull
[16:31:30] <Danimal-office> ours was all white with a black head
[16:31:40] <clytle374> Around the 30's pitbulls was considered a good dog for kids, and German shepherds were the killers
[16:31:49] <mozmck> look up the Kohler method of dog training. not for dog rights activists ;)
[16:32:37] <Danimal-office> i got a boxer/lab and a german shepherd/?? right now
[16:33:56] <Danimal-office> the boxer lab is a great dog... the shep needs a little work, she needs some socializing
[16:50:57] <clytle374> Danimal-office, I guess I don't trust any dog I don't know, but even a vicious large dog can be handled. TIP: If dog comes after you, offer it your hand. When it lunges shove your arm down its throat.
[16:51:08] <clytle374> Dog freaks out and runs off.
[16:52:06] <Danimal-office> i'll just let my dog handle it :)
[16:52:13] <clytle374> And gag reflex stops you from getting bit
[16:52:19] <Danimal-office> only time i run across other dogs is on walks with them
[16:53:11] <clytle374> We have wild dogs here.
[16:53:30] <Danimal-office> my big dog is an alpha male... most dogs usually take a hike
[16:53:42] <Danimal-office> we have coyotes, thats about it
[16:53:51] <Danimal-office> lots of them
[16:54:47] <clytle374> we've got coyotes to, but dogs are worse. Not generally afraid of humans.
[16:57:57] <Danimal-office> i was out mountain biking with some friends once and this guy was walking 2 wolves on chains
[16:58:19] <Danimal-office> he said they were about 4 months old, and they were probably 120+lbs
[16:58:22] <JT-Hardinge> coyotes respond well to lead treatment
[16:58:33] <Danimal-office> biggest paws i've ever seen on a dog
[16:58:42] <Danimal-office> lol JT-Hardinge
[16:59:04] <Danimal-office> this guy said he had 36 of them on his property
[16:59:40] <Danimal-office> they were super friendly, but he said they werent trainable
[17:01:43] <clytle374> We've got 2 Australian shepherds that don't seem trainable either.
[17:01:49] <Danimal-office> haha
[17:01:58] <Danimal-office> yea those dogs have alot of energy
[17:02:26] <Danimal-office> speaking of dogs, i gotta walk mine they're getting crazy
[17:02:29] <Danimal-office> adios
[17:02:50] <clytle374> take care
[17:11:07] <clytle374> What's up with the mesa site? I heard a rumor about a sale on cards.
[17:13:35] <wendtmk> Afternoon everybody. Back at it again today. Having some issues on my X axis using two steppers. My machine has rack and pinion on both sides of the gantry. If I run either of the two steppers individually, they move the gantry by itself, but if I try to gang them together, they seem to be fighting each other, no matter whether the invert box is checked or not for either stepper. Each stepper has it's own individual driver.
[17:14:02] <alex_joni> clytle374: seems down atm
[17:14:02] <wendtmk> Both stepper drivers are Keling 4030
[17:15:52] <wendtmk> Pin 2 is step pin 3 is dir for the first X, and pin 4 is step pin 5 is dir for the second X
[17:16:53] <wendtmk> I have to invert Pins 2 and 4 to get movement from the steppers.
[17:17:58] <alex_joni> what do you mean fighting?
[17:18:20] <wendtmk> The wiring on both drivers is identical
[17:18:47] <clytle374> Maybe they are out of phase with each other?
[17:18:47] <wendtmk> By fighting each other, one stepper is trying to go one way, the other stepper is trying to go the other way, direction wise.
[17:19:13] <clytle374> Or what ever that is in stepper speak
[17:19:13] <alex_joni> maybe they are mounted reversed on the gantry?
[17:19:30] <wendtmk> They have to be mounted reversed to each other.
[17:19:33] <alex_joni> I'd just determine what the correct dir is, and invert the other one
[17:19:47] <alex_joni> invert dir for one of them
[17:20:02] <wendtmk> Tried that via the invert box on the dir, but it doesn't seem to make a difference.
[17:20:17] <alex_joni> make scale negative
[17:20:42] <alex_joni> although I must say I kinda doubt you can set the gantry right using stepconf
[17:21:07] <wendtmk> Can that be done in step conf or do I have to fat finger that in the ini file?
[17:21:21] <alex_joni> you can set the scale negative in stepconf
[17:23:46] <wendtmk> Where do I do that in stepconf?
[17:26:31] <pcw_home> "clytle374: seems down atm" : yes website hosting is down for some reason, if you need to you can look at our (slow) local
[17:26:32] <pcw_home> copy (freeby.mesanet.com)
[17:29:02] <clytle374> Just checking to see what the sale was.
[17:29:27] <Danimal-office> lol
[17:29:44] <pcw_home> Sale is a unfounded rumor
[17:30:08] <Danimal-office> yea, i heard more of a giveaway
[17:30:19] <Danimal-office> :)
[17:30:31] <clytle374> it was free by mesa after all.
[17:30:51] <clytle374> pcw_home, started by you IIRC
[17:31:02] <Danimal-office> lol
[17:31:35] <Danimal-office> actually it was me, i thought it was obvious i was kidding haha
[17:31:57] <Danimal-office> sorry
[17:31:57] <pcw_home> But our prices are always a bargain!
[17:32:43] <clytle374> oops, I need to get some sleep... I've misreading lots of things recently..
[17:32:49] <Danimal-office> lol
[17:33:48] <alex_joni> that should be freebee.mesanet.com not freeby.mesanet.com
[17:34:07] <alex_joni> wendtmk: on the page where you set up how many steps/unit you have
[17:35:16] <pcw_home> HI alex
[17:35:17] <pcw_home> We actually have some layouts with Ethercat now
[17:35:19] <pcw_home> so we're easing inti it
[17:35:26] <pcw_home> (into)
[17:37:16] <wendtmk> alex: That would affect both X axis drivers though, wouldn't it?
[17:37:43] <wendtmk> a;
[17:38:43] <clytle374> Say both steppers are between steps. and the first step is forward on one and backwards on the other.
[17:38:48] <clytle374> Doesn't that fight?
[17:39:18] <clytle374> Try mounting them energized
[17:39:37] <wendtmk> They are both energized
[17:40:12] <clytle374> and they aren't bound up at that point?
[17:41:23] <wendtmk> Not sure what you mean by bound up. When no movement is required, they are both sitting there quiescent, not fighting each other. However, when I try to jog the axis, one stepper tries to go in one direction, the other tries to go in the other direction.
[17:42:12] <clytle374> and unmounted they both turn together?
[17:42:56] <clytle374> By bound up I meant pushing opposite directions.
[17:43:39] <wendtmk> When you say umounted, do you mean one or the other disconnected from their individual driver?
[17:44:03] <clytle374> Mechanically disconnected.
[17:44:41] <wendtmk> Haven't mechanically disconnected them from the machine. That requires a bit of work.
[17:45:11] <clytle374> But when disconnect they both go the correct way. odd
[17:45:27] <clytle374> ^^electrically disconnected
[17:46:07] <wendtmk> Well, not sure if both go the correct way. Didn't test that. I did test the movement with them electrically disconnected. Let me make sure they are both moving in the same direction. Be back in a bit.
[17:49:36] <pcw_home> bbl farmers market time
[17:58:56] <robotito> pcw_home, which one prices?
[18:03:09] <JT-Dev> --nogui
[18:03:41] <wendtmk> Okay, here's what's happening. When either axis is disconnected electrically, and that axis is deselected in Stepconf,the other axis moves in the correct direction. If I reconnect the other axis electrically, without configuring the pins in stepconf the original tries to move and the other tries to keep it from moving. If I keep them both connected electrically, cnoofigure the pins in step conf, one still tries to move and the other
[18:04:21] <alex_joni> wendtmk: you got cut off at "and the other
[18:05:10] <wendtmk> Okay lets try this in single lines
[18:05:23] <alex_joni> hang on a sec
[18:05:30] <alex_joni> how did you define them in stepconf?
[18:06:15] <wendtmk> The machine has two axes, X and Z I started out with a generic mill template with the XYZ
[18:06:33] <alex_joni> ok, go on
[18:07:05] <wendtmk> units are inches, driver is Keling 4030 selected
[18:07:27] <wendtmk> parallel port is 0x378
[18:07:34] <MOGLI> how to use SPindle encoder with Pluto-P stepper???
[18:07:53] <MOGLI> any config/hal setting file available in wiki??
[18:08:31] <wendtmk> Parallel port setup page pin 1 unused, pin 2 X step inverted, pin 3 X dir
[18:08:57] <wendtmk> Pin 4 X step inverted, pin 5 X dir inverted
[18:09:32] <wendtmk> Since I'm trying to troubleshoot, limits, home and estop, as well as other unused pins are set to unused
[18:12:10] <wendtmk> X axis page - steps per rev 200, microstepping set to 8, pulley teeth set 1:1, pitch set to.954927426, velocity 3, acceleration 6, table travel 0 to 52.5
[18:12:34] <wendtmk> Z axis not configured at this point
[18:13:37] <wendtmk> Should I set this up using the lathe template, which just uses X and Z axis?
[18:13:54] <wendtmk> Since I have no Y axis, I mean?
[18:14:39] <clytle374> would it be possible to pastbin the config files? Providing step config output to them.
[18:15:20] <wendtmk> Will you need both the ini and the hal files?
[18:17:15] <clytle374> I'm curious about the hal file, alex_joni knows more and might want the other.
[18:18:04] <wendtmk> I'm in the process of posting both files right now.
[18:19:11] <wendtmk> First time I've used pastebin. should I leave the content type to raw?
[18:20:41] <clytle374> shoudl work
[18:20:46] <kristianpaul> :)
[18:20:56] <kristianpaul> * kristianpaul fianlly got working heekspython
[18:21:31] <wendtmk> Okay, here are the hal and ini files: http://pastebin.ca/1837677
[18:23:53] <wendtmk> Kinda neat to be able to talk to you all, sitting in front of my EMC computer and troubleshooting it at the same time.
[18:25:56] <clytle374> You both channel's directions are inverted. If you change one to not inverted, what happens? Does hal change?
[18:26:45] <wendtmk> Both channels are inverted for the step. That's necessary for both steppers to move. At least when I do them individually.
[18:26:52] <clytle374> Maybe step config handles if funny since both have the same axis name? Wouldn't think so since you invert the pins not the axis
[18:27:31] <clytle374> You need to change the direction of one motor, not the step.
[18:28:31] <wendtmk> If I don't invert the step for either motor, the one I don't invert won't move (when it's the only motor connected electrically).
[18:29:04] <clytle374> Don't change the step, change the direction pin
[18:29:35] <wendtmk> If I don't invert the step the motor won't move
[18:29:53] <robotito> how you change the direction pin?
[18:30:09] <wendtmk> By selecting the invert box for that pin
[18:30:35] <clytle374> hold on, where did alex_joni go?
[18:31:49] <clytle374> in the setup when you set the pins, turn off invert on pin3
[18:32:23] <clytle374> oops, turn it on. It is off now
[18:33:18] <wendtmk> Okay, did that. Steppers still fighting each other.
[18:33:30] <VernonM> Hello all.
[18:33:38] <wendtmk> Howdy Vernon
[18:33:43] <micges> hi
[18:34:58] <clytle374> Does anyone know why this "setp parport.0.pin-04-out-reset 1" was in hal twice?
[18:35:22] <clytle374> Does the setup wizard not handle to output for the same axis?
[18:35:49] <VernonM> running a gantry, eh?
[18:35:58] <wendtmk> Yep
[18:36:29] <wendtmk> Which lines do you see it twice?
[18:36:44] <Jymmm> FF3.6 Download, 5 days remaining
[18:36:50] <VernonM> cool. I can't offer any advice myself, but I'm setting up a router at my parents' place that'll use a two-motor axis, so I'll sit hre and watch quietly.
[18:37:37] <micges> wendtmk: in that config how are you moving gantry axis?
[18:38:15] <wendtmk> Mike: do you mean which axis?
[18:38:24] <micges> stepconf can't set properly gantry config, you must tweak your ini and hal to make it properly
[18:38:48] <micges> if you jog , only one axis on gantry will be moving
[18:39:06] <VernonM> doesn't gantrykins take care of that?
[18:39:11] <wendtmk> I'm kinda figgerin' that's the case. What entries do I need to make in the ini and hal files to make that happen?
[18:39:25] <wendtmk> Isn't gantrykins more for servos than steppers?
[18:40:47] <micges> wendtmk: describe more your machine. I'll try to help you
[18:41:10] <wendtmk> Mike: Yeah, I'm trying to gang two steppers on the X axis. If I run each individually, they jog in the correct direction (one or the other electrically disconnected and pins set to unused in stepconf)
[18:42:06] <wendtmk> Mike: machine has two axes - X and Z. X axis has two rack an pinions, with it's own individual stepper and driver.
[18:43:01] <wendtmk> Z axis has screw for it's movement, but I haven't played around with that axis yet.
[18:44:09] <wendtmk> One other thing - the jogging and movement have solely been done in stepconf, using the "test this axis" subprogram. I haven't brought EMC up fully inisde of Axis to try this out yet.
[18:45:28] <wendtmk> You'll have to excuse me for just a moment - nature calls... Little too much coffee this morning...
[18:48:23] <wendtmk> Sure would be nice if I had a bathroom out here in the shop!
[18:50:25] <micges> wendtmk: easiest way to do that would be connect step and dir of second motor of X axis to the first one
[18:51:04] <wendtmk> Mike: How would I be able to invert the direction of the second motor if I did that though?
[18:52:38] <archivist> I want one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mutb7KgA9NM&NR=1&feature=fvwp
[18:52:43] <wendtmk> Mike: I forgot to mention in the description above that the steppers need to move in the opposite direction of each other, the way the rack and pinions are set up.
[18:53:51] <micges> if parport.0.pin-05-out is pin of second motor dir
[18:54:14] <micges> simply remove line: setp parport.0.pin-05-out-invert 1
[18:55:37] <wendtmk> If I deselect the invert, the stepper moves the gantry in the wrong direction.
[18:56:01] <wendtmk> That is, compared to the stepper on pins 2/3
[18:57:21] <micges> so you must negate scale on second gantry motor stepgen
[18:58:35] <wendtmk> Aren't both steppers being driven by the same axis, AXIS_0?
[19:00:06] <micges> yes but to make it work you must negate second one
[19:00:23] <micges> simply put '-' before [AXIS_0]SCALE
[19:00:53] <wendtmk> Being a bit of a noob, I'm taking SWAG that it has to be done in the hal file?
[19:01:14] <Jymmm> archivist: Triple carbs!
[19:01:41] <micges> yes
[19:01:54] <aa-danimal-shop> man this is the third video card i have that went bad lately
[19:02:12] <aa-danimal-shop> anyone know of a decent reasonibly priced card that wont die?
[19:02:21] <aa-danimal-shop> agp
[19:02:27] <wendtmk> Won't putting a '-' before [AXIS_0} scale affect both steppers though? I still need one to turn in one direction and the other to turn the opposite direction.
[19:02:43] <clytle374> aa-danimal-shop, all on the same mother board?
[19:02:51] <Jymmm> aa-danimal-shop: stop using antiques would be a good start.
[19:03:44] <clytle374> wendtmk, that is why micges wants you to remove the invert line.. to change the direction of the one motor
[19:05:13] <wendtmk> Okay, so I need to remove the invert line and place a '-' in front of the [AXIS_0], correct?
[19:05:35] <micges> setp stepgen.1.position-scale -[AXIS_0]SCALE
[19:05:36] <aa-danimal-shop> no, different mobo's
[19:05:47] <aa-danimal-shop> Jymmm, STFU
[19:05:55] <aa-danimal-shop> they were newer cards
[19:05:55] <clytle374> wendtmk, One do the second if the machine moves opposite of what you want.
[19:06:28] <wendtmk> Okay, I'm getting confused here... ;-) what are the first steps I should take?
[19:06:30] <Jymmm> aa-danimal-shop: AGP is *NOT* a newer card
[19:06:31] <clytle374> nevermind
[19:06:46] <clytle374> listen to micges, not me
[19:06:52] <aa-danimal-shop> ok, THEY WERE PURCHASED RECENTLY
[19:07:07] <wendtmk> clytle374: ;-)
[19:07:50] <micges> wendtmk: ok. have you stepgen.1 connected to second motor of X axis?
[19:07:52] <Jymmm> aa-danimal-shop: Again, stop using antiques would be a good start.
[19:08:52] <Jymmm> aa-danimal-shop: And why are you buying anything for AGP, seriously. That a bit dated to be investing in it still, unless you paid like $2-5
[19:09:25] <wendtmk> Hang on sec - there aren't any stepgen.1 lines under [AXIS_0], they're all under [AXIS_1]. If I stick that line in under [AXIS_0] is that going to cause a problem?
[19:09:42] <micges> yes I see that
[19:09:49] <micges> hold on one sec
[19:10:18] <aa-danimal-shop> well what am i supposed to buy?
[19:10:38] <aa-danimal-shop> all this computer is for is for watching netflix
[19:10:44] <Jymmm> archivist: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ratfuML9QA&NR=1
[19:10:49] <Eric_K> too bad the atom boards don't have a modern video interface
[19:11:03] <micges> wendtmk: ok so you have two x drivers, to what pins are they connected?
[19:11:04] <aa-danimal-shop> i'm not buying a new pc just for that
[19:11:34] <alex_joni> wendtmk: just pastebin your whole config
[19:11:36] <Eric_K> aren't the agp boards getting expensive?
[19:11:45] <alex_joni> select all the ini file, and put it to pastebin.com
[19:11:50] <alex_joni> same for hal file
[19:12:13] <wendtmk> to keep my confusion to a minimum, X1 is connected to pins 2/3 2 being step, 3 being direction. X2 is connected to pins 4/5 4 being step, 5 being direction.
[19:12:14] <MOGLI> hey alexjoni is it possible to attach spindle encodeer in pluto step?
[19:12:19] <micges> alex_joni: http://pastebin.ca/1837677
[19:12:24] <alex_joni> MOGLI: I have no idea
[19:12:54] <MOGLI> ok :( if anyone tried it than plz guiide me..
[19:13:23] <alex_joni> micges: looks ok
[19:13:45] <alex_joni> now.. xdir goes to parport.0.pin-03-out and pin-05-out
[19:13:55] <alex_joni> wendtmk: one of the 2 moves in the wrong direction
[19:14:14] <alex_joni> which one is it? the first one (driven by parport pin-02 & pin-03) ?
[19:14:24] <alex_joni> or the second one (pin-04 & pin-05) ?
[19:14:26] <wendtmk> alex: one has to move in the opposite direction because one is mounted inverted from the other
[19:14:42] <alex_joni> "one" is a useless statement
[19:14:59] <Jymmm> one is a lonely number
[19:15:06] <alex_joni> just like Jymmm
[19:15:09] <wendtmk> sorry, X2 is mounted in reverse from X1
[19:15:13] <alex_joni> ok
[19:15:24] <alex_joni> then you need setp parport.0.pin-05-invert 1
[19:15:45] <alex_joni> err.. 0
[19:16:19] <wendtmk> The dir on X2 is inverted, opposite of X1
[19:16:33] <alex_joni> and it still goes the wrong way?
[19:17:04] <wendtmk> What seems to be happening, is X1 tries to move in the correct direction, X2 for some reason wants to hold position.
[19:17:17] <alex_joni> I think something else happens
[19:17:25] <alex_joni> your X1 has scale defined as 8000
[19:17:45] <alex_joni> X2 has scale 1527.8838816
[19:17:50] <alex_joni> (the other way around..)
[19:18:01] <alex_joni> X1 has scale 1527..., X2 has 8000
[19:18:20] <alex_joni> when you try to move X, X1 will move slower than X2
[19:18:50] <wendtmk> alex, that's axis_1, aren't both steppers under this config tied to axis_0?
[19:19:00] <alex_joni> wendtmk: I stand by my initial statement that using stepconf for this is a bad idea
[19:19:06] <alex_joni> wendtmk: nopt
[19:19:09] <alex_joni> nope
[19:19:22] <alex_joni> setp stepgen.0.position-scale [AXIS_0]SCALE
[19:19:27] <alex_joni> setp stepgen.1.position-scale [AXIS_1]SCALE
[19:19:39] <alex_joni> same for maxaccel, etc
[19:19:55] <alex_joni> err.. wait
[19:19:59] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is having a duh moment
[19:20:07] <wendtmk> In the TRAJ portion of the ini file, the coordinates are X Y and Z. Should I make the coordinates X X Z?
[19:20:15] <alex_joni> both steppers are driven by stepgen.0
[19:20:18] <Jymmm> alex_joni: I thought that SOP for you.
[19:20:22] <alex_joni> no, forget TRAJ for now
[19:20:23] <Jymmm> ;)
[19:20:30] <wendtmk> okey dokey.
[19:21:45] <alex_joni> wendtmk: try putting you latest version of the files at pastebin again
[19:22:00] <wendtmk> Okay, will do
[19:23:43] <wendtmk> alex: http://pastebin.ca/1837760
[19:24:29] <alex_joni> ok, looks pretty much ok
[19:24:38] <alex_joni> what happens when you try to move in X+ direction?
[19:25:40] <wendtmk> X1 tries to move, X2 just holds it's position.
[19:25:56] <alex_joni> what happens in X- direction?
[19:26:00] <wendtmk> Same for trying to move in the X-
[19:26:13] <alex_joni> X1 tries to move, X2 holds position?
[19:26:23] <wendtmk> yes
[19:26:34] <alex_joni> can you swap motor drivers?
[19:27:00] <wendtmk> I can swap the leads between X1 and X2. Will that work?
[19:27:08] <wendtmk> I mean the stepper leads.
[19:27:27] <alex_joni> the wires going to the motors you mean?
[19:27:30] <wendtmk> Yes
[19:27:36] <alex_joni> yup, that will work
[19:27:44] <wendtmk> Okay, give me a moment.
[19:27:49] <alex_joni> remember to turn off the amps first
[19:28:45] <alex_joni> wendtmk: also, can you check that custom.hal is empty for you?
[19:29:28] <wendtmk> Same thing, except X2 tries to move, and X1 now tries to hold, and custom.hal is empty.
[19:30:55] <wendtmk> alex: If I electrically disconnect X1 from the drive, and set the pins to unused, X2 moves just fine. If I disconnect X2 from the drive, and set it's pins unused, then X1 moves just fine.
[19:31:24] <wendtmk> The problems start happening when I electrically connect both steppers to the drives.
[19:32:42] <alex_joni> hmm.. maybe your parport doesn't have enough voltage for both drives?
[19:33:02] <VernonM> time to try Z
[19:33:09] <wendtmk> How would I determine that?
[19:33:16] <alex_joni> wendtmk: start emc2
[19:33:36] <alex_joni> do you have a meter?
[19:34:22] <wendtmk> emc2 is up and running. I have a True RMS multimeter.
[19:34:36] <alex_joni> ok.. try measuring the step input at both drives
[19:34:56] <alex_joni> same for dir
[19:34:59] <wendtmk> while it's in a quiescent state?
[19:35:04] <alex_joni> yes
[19:35:12] <wendtmk> Okay, standby
[19:38:56] <Jymmm> aa-danimal-shop: If you blowing video cards, you might want to check the CRT, power, etc. Video cards RARELY burn out (except those with heatsinks/fans on them).
[19:39:56] <wendtmk> X1 step - 9.8 mV, dir 5 V. X2 step - 9.8mV, dir 10 mV
[19:40:11] <alex_joni> sounds ok
[19:40:20] <alex_joni> now open a terminal
[19:40:49] <wendtmk> Ok, terminal open
[19:40:52] <alex_joni> (emc2 is still running....)
[19:40:55] <wendtmk> Yes
[19:40:58] <alex_joni> halcmd -kf
[19:41:09] <alex_joni> you get a halcmd prompt
[19:41:12] <wendtmk> Yep
[19:42:01] <alex_joni> unlinkp stepgen.0.step
[19:42:26] <wendtmk> Okay
[19:43:09] <alex_joni> sets xstep 1
[19:43:24] <MrSunshine> anyone know how the bvl20-1l lathes are in accuracy and rigidity ? :)
[19:43:26] <MrSunshine> mini lathes
[19:43:27] <alex_joni> now measure again at both step inputs at the drivers
[19:43:33] <wendtmk> Loud screaming from machine...
[19:44:10] <wendtmk> 1.078
[19:44:50] <alex_joni> loud screaming?
[19:44:53] <wendtmk> I just turned off the power at the controller
[19:45:02] <alex_joni> should be 5V or so
[19:45:11] <wendtmk> Yes, loud high pitched hum from steppers
[19:45:31] <MrSunshine> i have that also =)
[19:45:33] <MrSunshine> from my drivers
[19:45:40] <MrSunshine> chopping frequency issues i think
[19:46:08] <wendtmk> Getting 1.078 V
[19:47:05] <alex_joni> wendtmk: that's certainly not enough
[19:47:29] <wendtmk> Is that related to the parport?
[19:47:31] <alex_joni> both are 1.8?
[19:47:35] <wendtmk> Yes
[19:47:41] <alex_joni> 1.08
[19:47:54] <wendtmk> Yah, sorry 1.08
[19:50:10] <wendtmk> The controller box is hooked up to the mobo parallel port. I have a parport PCI card installed but not configured.
[19:53:38] <andypugh> Disappointingly, my mill spindle encoder doesn't work.
[19:54:32] <aa-danimal-shop> Jymmm, all of these had heat sinks, and a couple of them had fans
[19:54:55] <andypugh> It's rather odd, but watching it on the oscilloscope you can see the relative phases of A and B channels changing, enough that it gets periodic batches of negative counts.
[19:55:00] <VernonM> mine either, that's why I'm here.
[19:55:36] <VernonM> ah, well, I'm using an optical encoder
[19:55:59] <VernonM> gotta watch out for florescent lighting :D
[19:56:13] <andypugh> Mine is a machine aluminium top-hat with optical wossnames.
[19:57:34] <VernonM> don't have a flourescent light on it do ya? they blink at 60hz
[19:58:04] <andypugh> MIne blink at 50Hz, but it isn't that, I am pretty sure.
[19:58:11] <wendtmk> alex: that loud noise started as soon as I hit enter after the sets xstep1 command
[19:58:14] <VernonM> ok 50 :)
[19:58:53] <wendtmk> Whoops, that should have been xstep 1
[19:59:36] <clytle374> wendtmk, sounds like you better try with the pci card.
[20:00:45] <andypugh> I _think_ that the problem might be that the slots are too close to the sensor aperture size, so small variations in surface finish or colour are altering the exact sensor switch point, enough to alter the phase.
[20:02:35] <andypugh> The sensors have a 0.05" aperture on the emitter, and a 0.01" aperture on the detector, and my slot-width is 0.03"
[20:02:52] <wendtmk> The lspci command gave me these results: http://pastebin.ca/1837806. Which port should I use? There are two parallel ports on this card.
[20:04:30] <micges> wendtmk: try all one by one
[20:04:56] <aa-danimal-shop> hmmm maybe it isnt the video card. It freezes when i watch netflix in full screen on my TV. It's happening with 2 different cards. what else could cause this? the whole computer freezes.
[20:04:57] <wendtmk> Will I need to reboot between, or just shut down and restart EMC2?
[20:05:16] <micges> just restart emc
[20:08:01] <andypugh> Alternatively, I wonder if it is worth painting the encoder black?
[20:12:05] <wendtmk> mike: okay, got the parport configured on ac00. step and dir voltage readings at 5 v. Ran through the halcmd exercise, and both step and dir readings are at 4.98 V.
[20:12:28] <VernonM> That's what I'll be doing with mine when I finalize a design; anodizing it black.
[20:12:30] <wendtmk> No loud noise from the steppers this time either... ;-)
[20:12:48] <VernonM> conrgats, Wendtmk
[20:12:52] <VernonM> oops
[20:13:30] <wendtmk> How do I go about joggin the x axis from within EMC2 to see if it works?
[20:13:37] <andypugh> Anodizing would be better, but would be a waste of money if it was not the colour that was the problem. Painting it without clogging the holes sounds hard though.
[20:14:18] <andypugh> (also, I am not sure how "black" black paint is to Infra-red
[20:16:19] <andypugh> Perhaps it is worth trying some higher-value pull-ups on the sensors first, they only just skim the low voltage as things are. A squarer pulse shape into the comparators might help.
[20:28:13] <wendtmk> Well, my goof. ac00 wasn't the correct parport. b400 was. Got that set, brought up emc2, ran the halcmd stuff. X1 step voltage 9.8 mV, dir voltage 5 V. X2 step voltage .884 V and dir voltage 9.7 mV
[20:36:41] <andypugh> What starts a thread in HAL?
[20:37:46] <micges> adding function to it
[20:37:58] <andypugh> I have a bit of a problem, as I tried to run Halscope in the base thread, but that thread doesn't run, so Halscope quits every time.
[20:38:37] <andypugh> I guess deleting the Halscope config would fix that problem though>
[20:38:46] <wendtmk> Mike: still seeing the same problem as before. X1 wants to move, X2 wants to hold position.
[20:39:18] <wendtmk> This is on the new parport, the PCI card.
[20:39:27] <micges> andypugh: what's is error in console?
[20:39:39] <elmo40> what is a way to have feedback from a stepper? can i add an encoder to it?
[20:40:04] <Jymmm> aa-danimal-shop: See, I'm a mind reader =)
[20:40:29] <andypugh> Not an error as such, Halscope brings up a dialog box giving me the option to start the thread and try again, or to quit Halscope.
[20:40:48] <andypugh> elmo40: Yes, you can add an encoder
[20:40:57] <micges> wendtmk: try dir hack again
[20:41:24] <andypugh> elmo40: But it won't give you closed-loop control, just tell you when a step has been missed.
[20:42:26] <wendtmk> mike: which dir hack was that again? ;-)
[20:43:13] <andypugh> I suppose in theory you could run a PID controller on a stepgen, which might allow you to recover missed steps. It might catch missed-steps on overloads, but not overspeed stalls.
[20:43:15] <micges> remove invert out from one of motors
[20:43:26] <wendtmk> okay
[20:44:18] <micges> andypugh: you can use stepgen in velocitty mode and encoders
[20:44:31] <micges> it should work
[20:44:35] <wendtmk> mike: Only X2 has the invert on the dir right now, with no changes yet
[20:44:47] <wendtmk> should I remove that one?
[20:45:06] <micges> wendtmk: stop
[20:45:14] <micges> it is waste of time
[20:45:19] <micges> try this:
[20:45:35] <wendtmk> Haven't done anything yet.
[20:45:39] <andypugh> Aye, that was sort-of what I was thinking. Do you know if anyone has made that work and gained an advantage?
[20:46:02] <micges> define stepgen 0 to drive motor 0 and stepgen 1 to drive 1
[20:46:35] <andypugh> Is wendtmk running a dual-motor axis?
[20:46:37] <micges> andypugh: it's working here
[20:46:38] <wendtmk> Okay, how and where do I do that?
[20:47:06] <micges> in hal file
[20:47:17] <wendtmk> Okay, I have the hal file open
[20:47:19] <micges> duplicate all lines you have for motor X1
[20:47:36] <micges> just change stegen.0 to stepgen.1
[20:48:22] <andypugh> Are X1 and X2 on the same axis?
[20:48:30] <micges> andypugh: yes
[20:48:30] <wendtmk> stepgen.1 is set up under AXIS_1 in the hal file. Should I comment out the AXIS_1 stuff?
[20:48:43] <andypugh> This might be a time to use Gantrykins.
[20:48:47] <elmo40> andypugh: basically i would like to have better info on where it is, tell the software it is 'here' and then have it figure out where to go from there.
[20:48:58] <pfred1> andypugh to the Gantrykins!
[20:49:07] <wendtmk> ROFL!
[20:49:19] <Jymmm> TO THE BATMOBILE ROBIN!
[20:49:37] <andypugh> There is a sample config in the standard install that shows how it is used, you can assign multiple "joints" to the same "axis"
[20:49:37] <micges> wendtmk: pastebin again I'll quickly do this
[20:49:49] <pfred1> OK now who here knows about hydromatic tractors?
[20:50:04] <pfred1> I think i have to purge mine
[20:50:05] <Jymmm> Don't bogart that joint my friend...
[20:50:22] <pfred1> she ain't a movin a too good lately
[20:50:56] <wendtmk> mike: http://pastebin.ca/1837867
[20:51:03] <VernonM> hha
[20:51:23] <VernonM> hydrostatic? I used to work at a Deere dealer.
[20:52:03] <andypugh> With a gantrykins config you can switch between independent and conjoined motor movement modes, which allows for auto-squaring.
[20:52:37] <pfred1> VernonM yeah push the motion control lever forward and it doesn't want to go anywhere
[20:53:22] <VernonM> man, that could be anything from low fluid, plugged filter, stuck bypass, bent linkage...
[20:54:01] <pfred1> VernonM that is what I've been reading but it came on over the winter I was wondering if it somehow iced up and just needs to be purged now?
[20:54:06] <VernonM> does it whine? try to move at all?
[20:54:28] <pfred1> oh yeah it goes really slowly the shed i keep it in I have a ramp it just doesn't want to climb it
[20:54:46] <pfred1> I made the ramp at the tractors maximum degree of incline
[20:54:51] <pfred1> 15 degrees
[20:54:57] <VernonM> see if that bypass valve is stuck in.
[20:55:01] <pfred1> and it usually rips right up it
[20:55:21] <pfred1> is that the transport linkage?
[20:55:23] <VernonM> yes
[20:55:31] <pfred1> yeah I've fiddled with that
[20:55:50] <pfred1> unless i have it in the wrong position?
[20:55:58] <VernonM> wherever the lever/linkage is, it pushes in a valve on the transmission to let the fluid bypas the hydraulic motor in it
[20:56:07] <micges> wendtmk: http://pastebin.ca/1837874
[20:56:50] <pfred1> I'm going to try the purging proceedure in the manual but not today its too late i nthe day for me to have it out and have it stuck being out
[20:57:09] <VernonM> ah yeah, understandable
[20:57:44] <VernonM> sems like it'd surge if it needed purging, but it's been a while since I worked on that stuff, and things change.
[20:58:06] <pfred1> oh yeah I'm clueless about it it usually just works for me
[20:58:11] <frallzor> * frallzor is tired
[20:58:25] <pfred1> most I've ever done to it is charge up the battery
[20:58:32] <VernonM> haha yeah
[20:58:50] <pfred1> freaking lawn mower turn the key and go
[20:58:50] <Jymmm> battery???
[20:58:58] <VernonM> man I'm glad I don't work on that stuff anymore
[20:59:12] <pfred1> Jymmm its a tractor
[20:59:17] <Jymmm> ah
[20:59:25] <VernonM> now the heaviest thing I lift is a Kurt vise :)
[20:59:25] <andypugh> micges: No stepgen linked to axis.1 ?
[20:59:33] <Jymmm> TRACTOR RACES!!!!
[20:59:36] <pfred1> VernonM they're heavy
[20:59:49] <VernonM> yeah especially the doublelocks
[20:59:57] <micges> andypugh: it's about axis x for now
[20:59:59] <pfred1> I have a knock off
[21:00:12] <VernonM> some of those are pretty good
[21:00:48] <VernonM> sigh.
[21:01:01] <VernonM> Someone please help me with my lath spindle encoder :)
[21:01:40] <VernonM> I know I've seen people threading with single-pulse encoders, but all of the documentation seems to assume a 100-count encoder as well
[21:01:55] <andypugh> VernonM: What is the problem with your lathe spindle encoder? (Mine works fine, it's the mill one I am struggling with)
[21:02:38] <andypugh> I have threaded with a 20-count encoder, but the 400 count one works better.
[21:02:46] <VernonM> I can see the light on the encoder card blinking, and the one on the breakout board, and HALmeter even shows it flipping between true and false, but the example threading program just gets to G33 and hangs
[21:03:27] <andypugh> Do you have an encoder set up in HAL?
[21:03:32] <VernonM> and every time I try some uneducated poking and pasting of snippets into my HAL file, I just screw it up
[21:04:00] <VernonM> no, at the moment I've started over with a fresh StepConfig.
[21:04:30] <andypugh> Let me go through my lathe HAL and find the important lines.
[21:05:17] <pfred1> VernonM in the meantime here is my ugly no name vise: http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/8026/millpic.jpg
[21:05:34] <VernonM> just a few minutes ago, I noticed a bit in the EMC wiki about rigid tapping on a mill with a single-pulse encoder, which looks promising...
[21:05:59] <andypugh> Sounds brave to me -)
[21:06:03] <Jymmm> pfred1: Man, it's ALMOST as ugly as it's owner! But not quite.
[21:06:20] <VernonM> hahahaha
[21:06:22] <pfred1> Jymmm I picked it up in a flea market for $20 you know?
[21:06:38] <Jymmm> pfred1: For $20 - Ugly works for me!
[21:06:47] <VernonM> as long as that back jaw is strong and perpendicular to the table, who cares if it's ugly :)
[21:07:18] <Jymmm> VernonM: pfred1's better half maybe?
[21:07:39] <pfred1> Jymmm lets see the thread was stripped out so I had to crack the moving jaw in half and with a whizzer disc cut new threads weld it back together and resurface it so ....
[21:07:46] <andypugh> VernonM: Thinking about it, the stepconf config should just work.
[21:07:48] <VernonM> besides, I can't talk... I might run Haas and Mazak at work, but at home it's all Sherline!
[21:08:03] <Jymmm> pfred1: geeze
[21:08:04] <pfred1> Jymmm but it holds good now!
[21:08:06] <VernonM> gah
[21:08:07] <andypugh> How many channels do you have on the encoder/
[21:08:11] <VernonM> one
[21:08:22] <wendtmk> mike: I cut and pasted it into a new hal file, but when I went to start it up, EMC2 crashed
[21:08:30] <pfred1> Jymmm yeah when i bought it it was all greasy and I didn't see the damage
[21:08:45] <VernonM> stepconfig has a window with a "counts per revolution" box, but it won't let me change the "100" in it.
[21:09:12] <andypugh> VernonM: Which channel of the HAL encoder module is it connected to?
[21:09:16] <Jymmm> pfred1: that bites - probably why it was all greasy in the first place. I like to clean up everything I sell, but I take care of my shit too.
[21:09:24] <pfred1> VernonM doesn't Sherline come with config files?
[21:09:34] <micges> wendtmk: run emc from console and see what erro it is
[21:09:38] <micges> just type emc
[21:09:48] <Jymmm> pfred1: Probably for BDI though, not emc2
[21:09:54] <VernonM> it's a Sherline lathe, but I converted it. Gecko drives and CNC4PC cards.
[21:10:04] <pfred1> Jymmm whoever owned this vise treated it like a block of scrap wood its all drilled out on the body I filled it with lead and refaced that too
[21:10:17] <VernonM> didn't buy it as a cnc sherline
[21:10:46] <VernonM> ok let me check this HAL thing
[21:10:46] <andypugh> VernonM: If you can't change the scale in Stepconf, you should be able to edit the encoder.scale line in HAL.
[21:10:57] <Jymmm> pfred1: There were some vises on CL, want me to let you know if I see some more?
[21:11:10] <pfred1> Jymmm it just always seemed Sherline supported EMC pretty good to me in my reading about it all
[21:11:10] <VernonM> ok yeah, I'd just change it to 1, I think...
[21:11:33] <VernonM> well, Sherline's CNC setup doesn't thread, either.
[21:11:35] <Jymmm> pfred1: EMC1, not EMC2 (afaik)
[21:12:03] <wendtmk> mike: this is in line 38 could it be causing the problem: net ypos-cmd axis.1.motor-pos-cmd => axis.1.motor-pos-fb
[21:12:09] <pfred1> Jymmm I'm starting to hate companies that don't provide continuing support for their products after sale
[21:12:39] <pfred1> Jymmm its all about customer relations you know?
[21:12:43] <Jymmm> pfred1: Caveat emptor
[21:12:59] <pfred1> what i'm saying is a little good will can go a long way
[21:13:06] <Jymmm> pfred1: They want you to THINK that's it, but not always.
[21:13:18] <andypugh> VernonM: You need to set encoder.0.counter-mode true and encoder.0.position-scale 1
[21:13:20] <Jymmm> pfred1: Sure, but rarely is the case.
[21:13:35] <micges> wendtmk: what error?
[21:13:35] <pfred1> but lets say a company really goes the extra distance for you aren't you going to tell everyone you know about it?
[21:13:45] <andypugh> And then you need to make sure that your pulse input is connected to the encoder.0.phase-A pin in HAL
[21:14:55] <andypugh> However, I thought that Stepconf was clever enough to do all that
[21:15:35] <pfred1> andypugh FOSS software is rarely too clever and often I think that is by design :)
[21:16:11] <VernonM> hmm
[21:16:19] <wendtmk> mike: okay, part of the cut and paste went goofy. emc2 is now up
[21:17:04] <andypugh> Aha!
[21:17:28] <pfred1> does anyone in here now use a plug in parallel port card?
[21:17:29] <andypugh> VernonM: I think I see the problem (I just tried a stepconf setup)
[21:18:42] <wendtmk> mike: okay, when I jog using the right arrow key X1 moves, but X2 tries to hold position. When I jog using the left arrow key, X1 holds position, and X2 moves.
[21:19:00] <andypugh> VernonM: In the Parallel Port Setup screen of Stepconf you need to set one of the inputs to be Spindle Phase A. Then you can change the scale factor, and the correct HAL modules will be written to the config
[21:19:06] <wendtmk> This is with EMC2 up and running.
[21:19:43] <VernonM> ahh ok I'll try it
[21:20:16] <VernonM> I just got my spindle speed working again. The one thing I didn't have setup notes for.
[21:20:25] <micges> wendtmk: now inverse dir signal on x2 motor
[21:20:26] <aa-danimal-shop> cool
[21:21:01] <pfred1> aa-danimal-shop whats so cool?
[21:21:02] <VernonM> and setting it to Spindle Phase A won't make it look for a 100-count encoder?
[21:21:20] <aa-danimal-shop> that he got his spindle working again
[21:21:49] <andypugh> No, if you define the input then the pulse-per-rev box becomes editable.
[21:22:02] <pfred1> aa-danimal-shop oh yeah whenever I do anything setup wise on a PC I always make a notes file and copy down every step I take it comes in handy if I have ot do it again
[21:22:13] <wendtmk> mike: WoooooHooooooo! The gantry moves!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you!!!!!!!!!
[21:22:13] <micges> wendtmk: comment line 45 of my pastebin
[21:22:21] <micges> cool
[21:22:44] <wendtmk> Now that's progress right there!!!!!!!!
[21:22:53] <pfred1> wendtmk congratz
[21:22:59] <VernonM> ok so Phase A will be set to some unused pin, and my index pulse to another input pin?
[21:23:04] <micges> wendtmk: don't run stepconf on that
[21:23:12] <VernonM> congrats Wendtmk
[21:23:13] <micges> only manual changes
[21:23:15] <wendtmk> Say congratz to Mike. He's the one that figgered it out!
[21:23:15] <pfred1> yeah back it up!
[21:23:34] <pfred1> copy it to a backup file and save to removable media
[21:23:38] <wendtmk> I won't be running stepconf against that, that's for sure!
[21:23:44] <tlab> dropbox.com
[21:23:53] <pfred1> yeah immortalize it
[21:24:12] <wendtmk> ROFL! I'll have it framed and sent to Mike... ;-)
[21:24:27] <VernonM> woohoo that counts per rev box is editable
[21:24:29] <pfred1> thats it print it out and have it bronzed!
[21:25:50] <wendtmk> Okay, onward and upward. Time to fat-finger in the params for the Z axis... If I don't come out of the woods within 5 days, send out the search teams!
[21:26:44] <aa-danimal-shop> i figured out something useful yesterday... i had a part that was nearly impossible to setup for a re-cut and it was too big. So i put it in some sodium hydroxide and warm water for a few minutes and it fit perfect!
[21:26:52] <aa-danimal-shop> (aluminum part)
[21:27:23] <aa-danimal-shop> i just masked off the other critical dimensions
[21:28:06] <Jymmm> * Jymmm just shakes his head at aa-danimal-shop
[21:28:32] <pfred1> Jymmm chemical etching is a time honored practice
[21:28:38] <wendtmk> mike: since there's no longer an AXIS_1 in the hal file, should I remove that section from the ini file?
[21:28:44] <Jymmm> aa-danimal-shop: hope you tossed it in baking soda afterwards
[21:28:48] <VernonM> sigh
[21:28:49] <aa-danimal-shop> Jymmm, get over yourself
[21:28:55] <micges> wendtmk: you'll have high shiping prices to Poland ;)
[21:29:03] <aa-danimal-shop> i anodized it afterwards
[21:29:41] <andypugh> VernonM: No, set Phase-A to your pulse pin, and ignore index and B-phase (I think)
[21:30:04] <pfred1> aa-danimal-shop what would happen to aluminum if you chatodized it?
[21:30:13] <micges> wendtmk: no it will be your Y axis defined
[21:30:23] <aa-danimal-shop> chatodized it?
[21:30:33] <VernonM> ha ok I'll try that. it's not working the other way...
[21:30:35] <pfred1> aa-danimal-shop opposite of anodize
[21:30:39] <andypugh> VernonM: If that doesn't work, set both A and Z to be the same pin in the P-Port setup screen of stepconf.
[21:30:55] <aa-danimal-shop> cathodized, you mean?
[21:31:00] <pfred1> aa-danimal-shop you know anode and cathode?
[21:31:13] <micges> wendtmk: it will be XXYZ machine right?
[21:31:34] <pfred1> aa-danimal-shop yeah thats it cathodized
[21:31:44] <andypugh> Cathodised parts get very clean and rather smaller.
[21:31:45] <aa-danimal-shop> lol
[21:32:05] <aa-danimal-shop> i know anode and cathode, but you cad me confused with the grammar
[21:32:19] <aa-danimal-shop> (i'm one to talk)
[21:32:29] <aa-danimal-shop> had*
[21:32:30] <pfred1> I've done that electrolytic rust removal on ferrous metals
[21:32:31] <aa-danimal-shop> see?
[21:32:49] <pfred1> that stuff is awesome!
[21:33:03] <aa-danimal-shop> never tried it
[21:33:26] <pfred1> aa-danimal-shop it works and I've tried the exact chemical I think baking soda works better personally
[21:33:33] <andypugh> I have the chassis of a 1922 Ner-a-Car that I intend to try electrolytic de-rusting on.
[21:34:10] <pfred1> andypugh just let it sit for a while after you do to relieve the hydrogen stresses
[21:34:33] <VernonM> shouldn't HALmeter show axis.0.index-enable as TRUE?
[21:34:38] <pfred1> andypugh couple of months ought to do it
[21:35:07] <VernonM> ha, ok, same pin, I'll try that.
[21:35:22] <VernonM> oh and, home anodizing, is fun and easy.
[21:35:26] <VernonM> :)
[21:35:41] <andypugh> index-enable is for zeroing the encoder position at the start of a threading pass, so it should only go through during a G33 or G76 move
[21:35:56] <pfred1> I chrome plated at a printing die shop once
[21:36:11] <pcw_home> If tired, nervous, run down, ride the Nera-
[21:36:11] <pcw_home> car -- hundreds, young and old,
[21:36:11] <pcw_home> testify to it's benefits.
[21:36:48] <pfred1> pcw_home is that a hiku?
[21:36:55] <VernonM> oh yeah, I should have been looking at encoder.0 .. which IS true
[21:37:30] <VernonM> sigh. I have no clue.
[21:37:41] <pfred1> VernonM its more fun that way
[21:39:17] <VernonM> true
[21:39:28] <micges> good night all
[21:39:35] <VernonM> it HAS been fun. more fun than the mill conversion, which was simpler.
[21:40:03] <renesis> hihi
[21:40:04] <VernonM> I can't set A and Z to the same pin in config
[21:40:16] <renesis> er wrong chan youre not the dnb radio
[21:41:00] <andypugh> VernonM: You can't? That seems unfair.
[21:41:20] <andypugh> You should be able to do it in HAL.
[21:45:03] <andypugh> VernonM: Change the line net spindle-phase-a encoder.0.phase-A to read
[21:45:39] <VernonM> setting net spindle-phase a and net spindle-index to the same pin caused it to crash
[21:45:40] <andypugh> net spindle-phase-a encoder.0.phase-A encoder.0.phase-Z
[21:45:44] <VernonM> oh
[21:45:48] <VernonM> ok
[21:46:03] <andypugh> And then delete the two following lines.
[21:50:55] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[21:50:58] <andypugh> Time to see if my modified encoder board helps. I am not entirely optimistic.
[21:51:58] <VernonM> sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet
[21:52:07] <VernonM> thank you !
[21:52:13] <VernonM> it needs more pulses though
[21:52:39] <VernonM> it's moving in short increments... maybe I need to invert the signal
[21:52:47] <VernonM> still, it's running
[21:53:37] <VernonM> my encoder disk is CARDBOARD until I finalize a design. easy enough to modify.
[21:53:53] <VernonM> thanks a lot man
[21:54:17] <VernonM> I've had a thread up on the 'zone for a week or so asking for help.
[21:54:27] <pfred1> VernonM you made your own encoder?
[21:54:30] <VernonM> nah
[21:54:39] <VernonM> Andy said that.
[21:55:13] <VernonM> I'm just making a disk with holes.
[21:55:22] <pfred1> VernonM oh I'm really DIYing everyhting here
[21:55:50] <pfred1> VernonM I want to do optical limit switches eventually
[21:56:15] <VernonM> I've thought about it, but I'd hate to have a chip fall in them and trigger a false signal
[21:56:37] <VernonM> same reason Hall effect switches are out for me
[21:56:54] <pfred1> VernonM I'll point my sensor modules down
[21:57:11] <VernonM> yeah, good idea.
[21:57:23] <aa-danimal-shop> hmm i wonder if this weld will hold. i know you're not supposed to weld cast iron
[21:57:52] <pfred1> aa-danimal-shop why not?
[21:57:54] <VernonM> depends on the rod, aa-
[21:58:00] <pfred1> aa-danimal-shop just peen the weld to relieve stress
[21:58:12] <pfred1> * pfred1 welds cast iron all the time
[21:58:21] <aa-danimal-shop> i just used steel mig wire
[21:58:26] <VernonM> oh
[21:58:37] <pfred1> it should still work i use regular filler sometimes
[21:58:53] <aa-danimal-shop> it seems somewhat strong
[21:58:55] <pfred1> I have seen cast just up and crack after welding though
[21:59:07] <pfred1> but if you gently peen the weld it should be OK
[21:59:32] <aa-danimal-shop> it's not a structural piece
[22:00:00] <pfred1> only thing with cast is you're supposed to preheat the work
[22:00:19] <aa-danimal-shop> opps lol
[22:00:30] <pfred1> ah its not that critical all the time
[22:00:38] <VernonM> it is on a big casting
[22:01:18] <pfred1> yeah welding a little piece to a big piece heat the big piece up
[22:01:34] <pfred1> that way they contract the same
[22:02:11] <pfred1> can always weld it break it off and weld it again :)
[22:02:26] <VernonM> haha yeah
[22:03:45] <JT-Hardinge> dang Fedsex delivered my Tek today... that was not expected :)
[22:03:55] <pfred1> ancient swords were hammer welded cast iron
[22:04:15] <pfred1> JT-Hardinge you bought a scope?
[22:04:23] <JT-Hardinge> yea
[22:04:36] <aa-danimal-shop> neat
[22:04:38] <pfred1> JT-Hardinge the eyes into the electron or did you already have one?
[22:04:44] <JT-Hardinge> aa-danimal-shop: I weld cast iron all the time
[22:04:59] <pfred1> JT-Hardinge yeah its no biggie right?
[22:05:00] <VernonM> ok it still moves in surges...do I need more encoder pulses?
[22:05:01] <JT-Hardinge> I had one before
[22:05:18] <pfred1> JT-Hardinge with this CNC stuff scopes are handy
[22:06:09] <pfred1> JT-Hardinge I'd have never built my motor drivers without one
[22:06:11] <JT-Hardinge> welding cast takes a special rod and you have to stress relieve the weld after by peening and you can't weld more than one inch at time
[22:06:44] <pfred1> JT-Hardinge sometimes if its a crak it'd a good idea to drill the end of the crack to oso it stops spreading
[22:07:06] <pfred1> that always pisses me off if I'm welding and the crakc keeps on getting longer
[22:07:17] <JT-Hardinge> I use a Harris 65 rod
[22:07:34] <pfred1> JT-Hardinge I figure its cast iron so anything i throw in there has to be better ;0
[22:07:36] <JT-Hardinge> if it is cracked you must grind out all the crack so the weld it 100%
[22:07:43] <JT-Hardinge> is
[22:07:54] <pfred1> yeah you have to grind
[22:08:23] <pfred1> I picked up a mad 9" grinder at a garage sale a couple of years back
[22:08:39] <pfred1> keeps me from burning out a 4 1/2" every year
[22:09:02] <pfred1> guy i bought it off of said you'll burn out before it will and he was right!
[22:10:20] <JT-Hardinge> a 9" is quite a handful
[22:10:37] <pfred1> yeah but sometimes i get a little intense
[22:10:48] <pfred1> too intense for the 4 1/2s to put up with
[22:10:57] <pfred1> I've killed like a dozen
[22:11:05] <JT-Hardinge> so can I just take out all the PID in my ini to set the drives physical PID settings
[22:11:19] <JT-Hardinge> I've only killed cheap ones in the past
[22:11:42] <pfred1> nah I've killed good ones too they just go sometimes
[22:11:53] <pfred1> if its a hot day or you just are pressing a little too hard
[22:12:10] <pfred1> the gears shatter or the motors burn out
[22:12:42] <pfred1> the 9" just rips the stock down
[22:13:30] <pfred1> but i wouldn't use it like say under a car or somewhere confined
[22:13:46] <VernonM> ha, no, it'd eat you.
[22:14:20] <pfred1> but out in the open its what I wish all gringers were
[22:14:31] <pfred1> grinders even
[22:15:25] <pfred1> if I'd have gotten one years ago I wouldn't have gone through so many of the little ones
[22:15:54] <VernonM> well... a shorter index pulse didn't solve it. Neither did inverting the signal.
[22:16:17] <pfred1> VernonM stalled axis?
[22:16:48] <VernonM> nah, threading on a lathe. Andy got me going, but it's not exactly right yet.
[22:16:57] <pfred1> oh yeah
[22:17:50] <VernonM> it's staggering through the threading passes, moves a bit with each passing index, but it's waiting for phase inputs, so it pauses again
[22:17:53] <pfred1> VernonM doing some stuff for the first time can be frustrating a year from now you'll be able to do it with your eyes cloded I'm sure
[22:18:11] <VernonM> oh yeah i'm sure. It's frustrating, but fun.
[22:18:28] <VernonM> all you Linux guys have it easier :)
[22:18:28] <Jymmm> pfred1: Hey, stop giving out my high speed driving secrets!
[22:18:41] <pfred1> sounds like the encoder may be too slow for the rest of the machine to keep up with to me
[22:19:39] <pfred1> VernonM all you need to know is mv = move and cp = copy now you're a UNIX guru as far as EMC goes :)
[22:20:18] <VernonM> hahahaha
[22:20:34] <pfred1> I guess find and locate are handy commands too
[22:20:44] <pfred1> oh and less is more
[22:21:13] <VernonM> yeah, well it's a single pulse, Andy's got me hooked up with the encoder and index set to the same pin in HAL,
[22:21:27] <VernonM> so it starts on the index, but then waits for encoder pulses to continue
[22:22:10] <pfred1> VernonM oh so you're like 1:1 but it expects 1:4 or something?
[22:22:28] <VernonM> well, the scale is 1...
[22:22:34] <VernonM> so shouldn't it just keep going?
[22:24:04] <VernonM> maybe it's the example program's fault...feed set too high for 400 rpm or something.
[22:24:55] <pfred1> VernonM yeah if it was me I'd go very slowly to start off with
[22:26:10] <VernonM> yeah well I'm cutting air at the other end of my travel :)
[22:26:25] <VernonM> not gonna bash MY lathe.
[22:26:30] <VernonM> haha
[22:26:47] <pfred1> head crashes are always pretty hairy
[22:26:58] <VernonM> yep
[22:27:30] <VernonM> well, THAT worked... I changed the example program from cutting threads at 400 to 800 rpm
[22:27:41] <pfred1> haha going faster?
[22:27:44] <VernonM> yeah
[22:28:07] <VernonM> so it's the program or the g33 canned cycle
[22:28:46] <skunkworks_\> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/16io.JPG
[22:28:51] <skunkworks_\> works great!
[22:29:55] <andypugh> VernonM: Looking at your HAL, which output of your encoder is the axis position net-ed to?
[22:30:07] <VernonM> I'll go look
[22:30:35] <pfred1> skunkworks_ http://thatwillbuffout.com/
[22:30:51] <andypugh> (Back from the garage, my encoder is still not working. I am baffled as to how slots half an inch apart can vary in relative phase..
[22:31:35] <VernonM> oh, that's the Netting Andy had me set, Both A and Z are netted to the encoder
[22:31:42] <VernonM> net spindle-phase-a encoder.0.phase-A encoder.0.phase-Z
[22:31:44] <VernonM> right?
[22:32:15] <andypugh> Yeah, but that was a guess :-)
[22:32:33] <VernonM> yeah well it's MOVING
[22:32:48] <andypugh> Try changing:
[22:32:50] <andypugh> net spindle-position encoder.0.position => motion.spindle-revs
[22:32:57] <VernonM> infinitely more progress than I'd made
[22:32:58] <andypugh> to net spindle-position encoder.0.position-interpolated => motion.spindle-revs
[22:33:02] <VernonM> ok
[22:33:52] <andypugh> I am not entirely sure how well position-interpolated works on 1ppr, but it ought to be better than raw position
[22:37:05] <archivist> how could 1 ppr be better at anything
[22:38:19] <andypugh> I was saying that position-interpolated might help to make a silk purse out of that particular sow's ear.
[22:38:41] <VernonM> well it seems better, back at 400rpm again
[22:38:49] <VernonM> but it's hard to measure air-threads.
[22:38:54] <VernonM> guess I'd better cut something
[22:39:16] <andypugh> How many input pins do you have free?
[22:39:19] <VernonM> it's a lot smoother
[22:39:21] <VernonM> um
[22:39:39] <andypugh> Because 20 slots + index would be a whole lot better.
[22:39:48] <VernonM> all but one, what are there, 5? I'd like to save one for limits, which aren't hooked up yet
[22:39:55] <VernonM> so, 2 or 3 more
[22:40:00] <VernonM> yeah
[22:40:08] <VernonM> I'm seeing that.
[22:40:19] <VernonM> guess I need a second encoder card.
[22:40:31] <andypugh> it's a lathe, so one for eaxh axis limit still leaves you enough for Index and A.
[22:40:40] <VernonM> yep
[22:40:49] <VernonM> but I'll be ok with all of them on one loop
[22:41:21] <VernonM> going to make the Z- limit moveable
[22:41:23] <andypugh> Ideally you want a seperate home for each axis, it just works better.
[22:41:25] <pfred1> VernonM you run off parallel port?
[22:41:29] <VernonM> yes
[22:41:42] <VernonM> a single port at the moment
[22:41:53] <VernonM> although I have more cards...
[22:42:01] <pfred1> VernonM what kind?
[22:42:14] <pfred1> VernonM i want ot buy a parallel port card
[22:42:18] <andypugh> I am not sure why you need an encoder "card". My encoders hooked pretty much straight into the P-Port.
[22:42:47] <pfred1> andypugh signal conditioning?
[22:43:12] <andypugh> OK, so I have some comparators on a bit of stripboard for that.
[22:43:17] <VernonM> well yeah there's not much driver circuit to a phototransisor, but it's CNC4PC's encoder, optoisolated, isn't it?
[22:43:26] <pfred1> andypugh I see ...
[22:43:54] <pfred1> andypugh have a schematic for that?
[22:44:09] <andypugh> Do you have any other unassigned inputs? They would probably work.
[22:46:33] <andypugh> I don't think I have a schematic, I just built it. (point-to-point wired on spot-board with Verowire, saves all that planning that you need with stripboard)
[22:46:34] <VernonM> yeah I have 3 available inputs
[22:47:26] <pfred1> andypugh remember offhand which comparator you used?
[22:47:37] <andypugh> I guess that the encoder connections provide a 10mA (or similar) supply for the photodiodes
[22:47:41] <andypugh> LM393P
[22:48:03] <pfred1> andypugh ta noted
[22:48:29] <VernonM> noted in multiple locations.
[22:48:55] <andypugh> The circuit is +5V through 220R to the LEDs, then the Phototransistor is connected to +5 through a 2k2. 0V is common.
[22:49:40] <pfred1> right now I'm mocking up my port buffer prior to actually building it
[22:50:04] <VernonM> ah that's cake. I wish Rat Shack still stocked real parts.
[22:50:17] <andypugh> The junction of the 2k2 and the phototransistor goes to the IN+ of one side of the comparator. The IN- is connected to a 10k Pot between +5V and 0V.
[22:50:42] <pfred1> VernonM I just bought a 276-147 2200 solder ringed perfboard off rat shack earlier today
[22:51:06] <andypugh> You need about 500R pull-up on the comparator output. For best noise immunity I put that on the actual breakout board.
[22:51:06] <pfred1> VernonM clerk even said good luck with your project to me
[22:51:18] <VernonM> heyyy, this CNC4PC card uses LM339, a quad comparator. Can;t I use part of it for another input?
[22:52:01] <andypugh> If I were you I wouldn't be wasting time asking, I would be already on to it :-)
[22:52:14] <VernonM> hahaha
[22:52:15] <VernonM> yeah
[22:52:27] <VernonM> sweet
[22:52:54] <andypugh> You can probably put the LED sections in series to save making another current-limiter.
[22:53:04] <VernonM> hahahaha
[22:53:10] <VernonM> nice, thank you, I'll try it
[22:53:13] <pfred1> andypugh well with your information I'm sure i can cobble up some sort of a circuit over here when the time comes thanks
[22:53:58] <VernonM> so, 20 count encoder? more? does a high-count encoder hog a lot of processor power?
[22:53:59] <pfred1> andypugh it sounds like your comparator circuit will work for limit switches to me also
[22:55:25] <VernonM> yeah that's true, but I'll need to power the LEDs
[22:55:36] <pfred1> andypugh my port buffer is very simple but I still drew it up to help me out when i put it all together
[22:55:50] <andypugh> Yes, I have pretty much the same circuit on my limit switches. They are focussed-reflective ones. They work pretty well, my Z-axis limits only stand proud of the surface 3mm, but the short focal depth of the photodiodes means that works fine.
[22:56:50] <pfred1> I have a whole bunch of emitter detector pairs i pulled out of cash register printers I thnk
[22:57:32] <pfred1> they were on a big encoder wheel if memory serves
[22:58:07] <MattyMatt> * MattyMatt has a nice pile of ball mice
[22:58:11] <pfred1> initially I'm only going to run the plain old mechanical microswitches though
[22:58:31] <pfred1> MattyMatt lots of those the emitters and detectors are just soldered to the board
[22:58:36] <andypugh> Do mice have an index track?
[22:59:12] <MattyMatt> no index. I've got floppy drives for that tho :)
[22:59:24] <pfred1> it does seem old mice were born to CNC to me
[22:59:29] <MattyMatt> the magnet & hall switch off a 3.5 hub
[23:00:22] <MattyMatt> I wonder how much torque they have
[23:00:50] <VernonM> mice, printers, VCRs, have emmitter-detector pairs
[23:01:46] <pfred1> I want ot get my hands on some scrap commercial copiers
[23:01:56] <pfred1> they're goldmines!
[23:03:13] <VernonM> yes they are!
[23:03:15] <VernonM> and
[23:03:31] <MattyMatt> I want a 200:16 pair of gears. they'd turn a crappy $15 encoder into a really nice jog wheel, I think
[23:03:52] <VernonM> ah. poop. no comparator in this card, only in the IMAGE of the card on the website.
[23:04:07] <andypugh> Boo!
[23:04:34] <pfred1> VernonM must be a feature on the next model up
[23:05:01] <andypugh> OK, I found a schematic for my limit switches, which is pretty much the same as the encoder. (slightly different resistor values).
[23:05:04] <andypugh> http://imagebin.ca/view/KMZQS0b6.html
[23:05:07] <VernonM> 74HC14
[23:05:11] <VernonM> Hex Inverting Schmitt Trigger.
[23:06:01] <VernonM> yeah I might have some comparators...but I'd have to dig.
[23:06:01] <pfred1> VernonM thats what I've been using on the transistor output of optos
[23:06:11] <andypugh> You can't adjust it, but it will give you nice clean edges.
[23:06:21] <VernonM> what, the Schmitt?
[23:06:24] <andypugh> Ae
[23:06:29] <VernonM> great
[23:07:20] <VernonM> it's even socketed
[23:07:48] <pfred1> you can see how I am using them on this: http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/1819/ppbb4sch.png
[23:08:57] <VernonM> yeah and that fits on one chip too
[23:09:00] <VernonM> nice
[23:10:29] <pfred1> I found the values of the resistors a little finicky but not too bad the pulldowns are 470 ohms to get .4V for a negative on my opto
[23:11:00] <pfred1> at that i think it is good for 11 ma
[23:11:23] <MattyMatt> you can condition a signal with a transistor
[23:11:38] <andypugh> I have 2k2 pull-up. I don't know enough to have an opinion which is better.
[23:11:42] <MattyMatt> that's what I see in most equipment for optos
[23:11:53] <pfred1> MattyMatt 7414 package easier for me to deal with
[23:12:27] <pfred1> andypugh I got the idea for my circuit out of a datasheet someplace
[23:12:44] <pfred1> it seems to do what I want it to do
[23:12:51] <andypugh> (Actually I now have 6k7 pull-up but it didn't help with the phase-shift problem)
[23:14:04] <andypugh> I think I am going to have to make the slots physically wider.
[23:15:14] <andypugh> Having the spindle velocity running negative for a few encoder counts every cycle is not going to make for successful rigid-tapping.
[23:15:29] <archivist> andypugh, what do you mean by "phase shift problem"
[23:15:36] <VernonM> not without a floating tap holder :)
[23:16:47] <andypugh> archivist: My A and B phase are 90 degrees apart near the index, then 180 degrees apart hapf way round.
[23:18:07] <andypugh> Which I am struggling to explain, as the photo-detectors are adjacent to each other (about 10 slots of the encoder) and I think I would spot that degree of machining error.
[23:18:35] <VernonM> yeah really.
[23:18:56] <VernonM> trace it onto a sheet of paper and spin it 180 degrees :)
[23:19:22] <archivist> off centre bore?
[23:19:32] <VernonM> take a photo, view it onscreen through the real one
[23:19:53] <andypugh> It is centred, and even that shouldn't cause a phase shift between close-spaced sensors.
[23:21:07] <archivist> well manufacturing errors will, did you notice the message aimed at ian in the hobbing thread about measuring a gear, use that on your disk
[23:22:01] <archivist> I have learnt that not all dividing schemes are equal
[23:23:08] <andypugh> I did make a 99.5 tooth encoder (by dividing a circle into 365 degrees) and that was really obvious. That is about the same level of error.
[23:24:18] <archivist> I have seen a worm dividing head give .6 degree error
[23:27:00] <andypugh> This would need to be a 1 degree error over 10 slots. That is the bit I can't figure out.
[23:28:28] <pfred1> I think my cat ran off with a bag of resistors on me!
[23:30:34] <archivist> andypugh, was it divided on a cheapo rotary
[23:30:43] <andypugh> It was
[23:31:14] <andypugh> But the same cheapo rotary made a perfectly good 400-slot encoder for the lathe spindle.
[23:31:49] <archivist> then cut a high count and measure with a vernier over n teeth and look at the variation
[23:32:05] <archivist> for what definition of perfect
[23:33:34] <andypugh> "Perfectly good" as in functional.
[23:33:50] <andypugh> No random velocity reversals.
[23:34:01] <archivist> also optos can give erroneous results if the reflection of an edge varies
[23:34:44] <pfred1> archivist would painting it flat black help?
[23:35:02] <archivist> if its not perfect some must lead and some must lag by definition
[23:36:15] <archivist> pfred1, depends, probably yes but ambient light has caused me most trouble with optos
[23:36:56] <andypugh> I am thinking that it is due to optical effects.
[23:38:03] <andypugh> I had to warm it up to get it off the mandrel, and some of the slots have a coating of burned cutting fluid...
[23:38:08] <archivist> swash plate wobble? that would affect it
[23:38:09] <pfred1> andypugh an optical illusion?
[23:38:49] <andypugh> From the point of view of the opto-sensors, yes.
[23:39:13] <pfred1> andypugh I couldn't resist :>
[23:39:19] <VernonM> haha
[23:39:49] <andypugh> I think I will just make another disc with wider slots. They should be more definite in their position.
[23:46:30] <VernonM> send it to me and I'll anodize it for you!
[23:46:59] <VernonM> after glass-bead blasting for a nice flat finish
[23:49:56] <andypugh> Thanks for the offer, but it's a long way to post an encoder.
[23:51:03] <andypugh> I sprayed it with black paint before I left the garage, I will see if that makes any difference.
[23:51:54] <VernonM> I hope so. Yeah, you did say you were on 50Hz mains... but after all your help, I had to offer.
[23:52:42] <andypugh> My lathe spindle encoder uses the same design of wheel (aluminium disc with slots cut by a 1/64" slitting saw) with reflective rather than transmissive sensors, and works unexpectedly better.
[23:53:05] <VernonM> wow
[23:53:44] <andypugh> http://picasaweb.google.com/bodgesoc/Gibbs#5437112859354194098
[23:53:50] <andypugh> And the next two pictures.
[23:55:22] <VernonM> man that's great. is that a deeper index slot?
[23:55:30] <andypugh> Indeed.
[23:55:52] <andypugh> The A-sensor and Index are mounted on the same bolt.
[23:56:38] <VernonM> very cool
[23:57:35] <pfred1> andypugh Achtung!
[23:57:52] <pfred1> I could see painting it helping
[23:58:05] <andypugh> Aye, that is why I tried it.