#emc | Logs for 2010-02-25

[00:00:01] <MrSunshine_> as linux isnt windows it usaly works to just swap hd =)
[00:00:18] <Jymmmm> Well, no *I* won't backup your data, you'll have todo that yourself =)
[00:01:11] <aa-danimal-shop> hold my beer so i can slap my knee
[00:01:38] <aa-danimal-shop> only thing that sucks is i'll have to buy ram
[00:02:28] <Jymmmm> * Jymmmm drinks aa-danimal-shop beer
[00:03:01] <aa-danimal-shop> thats ok, it was mostly backwash at this point
[00:04:11] <frysteev> Jymmmm: !!!!!!
[00:16:41] <cradek> aa-danimal-shop: like I said earlier, you can put (AXIS,stop) in your program to make AXIS stop generating preview
[00:16:52] <cradek> it's definitely the preview of your huge program causing you the pain
[00:27:00] <frysteev> cradek: those htmlk docs were whatr i needed, i had oinly ever seen the pdfs
[00:34:33] <aa-danimal-shop> cradek: i put it in parenthasies
[00:34:34] <aa-danimal-shop> ?
[00:38:10] <aa-danimal-shop> and as far as the preview, do you mean the actuall toolpath preview on the display, or something else?
[00:42:40] <aa-danimal-shop> doesnt seem to do anything, not sure if i'm entering it right
[00:47:50] <aa-danimal-shop> ugh and this is the second time z didnt retract and it rapided through the part
[00:47:58] <aa-danimal-shop> wtf is going on
[00:49:05] <cradek> didn't retract how? what did you do right before?
[00:50:08] <cradek> bbl
[00:50:14] <aa-danimal-shop> it's loosing position
[00:50:23] <aa-danimal-shop> in z
[00:50:39] <aa-danimal-shop> it thought it retracted, but it didnt
[00:50:46] <aa-danimal-shop> i was running a program
[00:51:18] <aa-danimal-shop> and it didnt retract when it was supposed to in the program (this is definitely a good program)
[01:01:41] <aa-danimal-shop> crap i'm not sure what to do, i need to run these parts
[01:09:50] <Jymmmm> Jymmmm is now known as Jymmm
[01:18:29] <frysteev> wooo my machine does what it is suppose to now
[01:18:42] <frysteev> only thing left is to get the limit switches set
[01:19:41] <aa-danimal-shop> nice
[01:20:14] <frysteev> i need to figure out how to make the limit switches being ignored during homing,
[01:20:22] <frysteev> and i have to figure that out through stepconf
[01:24:02] <aa-danimal-shop> cradek: if you're around, it seems to screw up in about the same spot in the program, but not the same exact line everytime. Near the beginning. The program is right, just the z axis is having issues retracting or feeding. I cut the program in half and made it into 2 seperate programs and so far so good.
[01:37:35] <Jymmm> Ok, you're about to buy your first SET of resistors, what qty of each value should you get?
[01:44:22] <tomp> analog or digital or mixed tech? one-off prototyping or small production? hellwifit just buy a digikey resistor assortment of cheap 1/4 5% carbons and light a candle
[01:48:09] <Jymmm> too expensive
[01:48:46] <ds3> I'd say get a set of 1206's and be done with
[01:49:05] <tomp> wow theyre < a penny a peice, whats the budget & expectations? yaego ok?
[01:49:43] <ds3> through holes are rapidly falling out of use; they are more useful as little probes then resistors
[01:54:35] <tomp> i didnt even think of surface mounts, too old school, how can you build bob pease hairballs with smt? ;) no broadway :(
[01:54:51] <ds3> same way you stack blocks together
[01:55:23] <ds3> you get little mountains with 2 resistors tacked on top on a pad setup for 1 resistor or double stacking them
[01:56:06] <tomp> huh. good to know. so your boards... the only holes are vias?
[01:57:19] <tomp> i bet the idea of top = component goes away too
[01:57:43] <ds3> I do protos on unetched boards
[01:58:00] <ds3> but for real PCBs, yeah... the only holes are vias
[01:58:17] <ds3> makes PCB milling somewhat practical as it cuts down on the pile of broken tiny bits
[02:18:33] <tomp> well for old skool, the vellman asst seems good bang for your buck at 11$ http://www.bgmicro.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=9464 (else ebay)
[02:27:37] <tomp> i finally found a reccomendation.. get the 'e12 series' and at 8$ for the vellman pkg http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/80-6665&CAWELAID=220591396
[03:16:06] <dmess> Hi all
[03:52:58] <Valen> http://www.geekologie.com/2010/01/want_tron_legacy_lightbike_in.php
[04:01:13] <cradek> aa-danimal-shop: that sounds serious - please email me the program and as much information as you can think of that might be relevant for reproducing it
[04:14:54] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: ping
[04:19:57] <Valen> aa-danimal-shop: I wonder if your overheating something
[04:20:27] <Valen> also how much ram is in your machine?
[04:20:44] <Valen> if you run sudo lshw it'll spit out more than you want to know about everything in the machine
[04:21:11] <Valen> and yeah swapping hdd's isn't a problem, the only thing you need to do generally is re-set up X
[04:44:23] <LawrenceG> Jymmm, pong
[04:44:54] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: soem serious lag there
[04:45:22] <LawrenceG> sleeping... just junked 16 computers.... sorting the remains
[04:45:47] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: If you didn't use an angel grinder, you didn't do it right
[04:45:56] <Jymmm> angle
[04:46:04] <LawrenceG> now what to do with this pile of floppy cables?
[04:46:33] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: When you made your light bar, how did you setup the LED's?
[04:47:42] <LawrenceG> only 2 50pin ribbon cables.... 4 in series with a resistor then switch with a fet across 13.8v buss
[04:48:15] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: remember what fet you used?
[04:50:15] <LawrenceG> 180 1/4w resistor... fets were ... some onsemi samples .. logic level gate drive... let me see if I put it on the schematic
[04:50:57] <LawrenceG> ntp18n06L
[04:51:15] <LawrenceG> 18 amp, 60v logic level
[04:51:50] <Jymmm> 60v@15A... Did you setup like 48 LEDs on one fet?
[04:52:26] <LawrenceG> 60 leds/fet (4x15 array)
[04:52:43] <Jymmm> ah.
[04:52:56] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: did that give you dimming too?
[04:53:54] <LawrenceG> only about .375 amps/array segment .. did not due dimming... mostly just flashing on/off
[04:54:36] <Jymmm> 375mA per 60 LED's?????
[04:55:05] <LawrenceG> each series string of 4 is only 25ma * 15 rows
[04:56:27] <LawrenceG> 0.025*15 = 0.375A and there are 8 arrays, so all on, the bar draws 8*.375 = 3 amps
[04:56:50] <Jymmm> The WHOLE bar, not bad
[04:57:41] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: Did you make a PCB for the segment?
[04:57:42] <LawrenceG> it does get warm, but not hot... it would be fun to make a bar with some of the 1w or 3w leds
[04:58:50] <LawrenceG> no, the leds are press fit into 3/16 holes in a piece of plexi/lexan/??? that I drilled with emc (on topic)
[04:59:02] <Jymmm> LOL
[04:59:16] <Jymmm> 5mm LED fits into a 3/16" hole?
[04:59:19] <LawrenceG> hand drill would have looked horrible
[04:59:41] <LawrenceG> yes.. very nice wedge fit
[05:00:13] <Jymmm> 5mm == .1969, 3/16" = .1875 <----- Um
[05:00:14] <LawrenceG> I had sore thumbs after pushing in all 480 led's
[05:00:45] <LawrenceG> the led's are tapered
[05:01:32] <Jymmm> Alright, I guess I'll believe ya =)
[05:01:47] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.11263
[05:02:48] <LawrenceG> about a 0.009" fit... but I think 3/16 drill drills a little large
[05:03:08] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: Heh, even better (cheaper and brighter) http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.5752
[05:05:06] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: Oooops, read the coments on that last one.
[05:05:15] <LawrenceG> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.2394 I have seen these on commercial light bars
[05:07:13] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: how thick a plexi did you use? I'm thinking 1/8"
[05:09:37] <LawrenceG> it was about 3/16.... caliper is out in the shop
[05:10:11] <Jymmm> that's fine
[05:10:13] <LawrenceG> hey.. got to sleep... early morning for me.... goodnight
[05:10:21] <Jymmm> g'night and thanks LawrenceG
[05:10:35] <LawrenceG> np
[05:39:22] <frysteev> http://www.flickr.com/photos/34832969@N03/4386824944/
[05:39:31] <frysteev> quick test
[06:59:01] <Jymmm> cradek: ping
[09:10:25] <Dhiraj> a
[10:24:45] <piasdom> g'mornin all
[14:14:16] <tomp> tomp is now known as tom3p
[15:54:31] <clytle374> What do you all think of this http://imgur.com/ue2ay.png
[15:54:35] <clytle374> Should be fast enough
[15:56:48] <cradek> looks great. what kind of machine?
[15:58:47] <clytle374> Intel BOXD945GCLF2 Atom 330 Intel 945GC Mini ITX Motherboard
[15:58:58] <clytle374> Not bad for under $200
[15:59:04] <cradek> yes, very nice
[16:01:18] <clytle374> Note to anyone running SMP you really really need the isolcpus=1 in grub
[16:03:31] <clytle374> and hyper threading off.
[16:10:14] <aa-danimal-shop> morning
[16:11:09] <tom3p> where's pin 1? if you find a single row connector with a latch. and you face the latch ( latch is seen behind the pins), is pin 1 to left or right?
[16:11:10] <tom3p> ( no chamfered corner on silkscreen, no pin 1 on silkscreen... and a dozen such connectors on pcb )
[16:11:12] <tom3p> ( no chamfered corner on silkscreen, no pin 1 on silkscreen... and a dozen such connectors on pcb )
[16:11:43] <aa-danimal-shop> cradek: what info do you need from me besides the program? ini and hal also?
[16:11:57] <aa-danimal-shop> clp?
[16:12:18] <cradek> I kind of doubt those would affect it, but may as well send the ini
[16:12:26] <aa-danimal-shop> ok
[16:12:48] <aa-danimal-shop> the program is about 4,000-5,000 lines
[16:13:28] <aa-danimal-shop> worked fine once i split it in half
[16:14:45] <aa-danimal-shop> i tried the (AXIS,stop) thing, but i didnt see any change, what exactly is it supposed to do? It was still showing the toolpaths on the screen. maybe i entered it wrong into the program?
[16:15:07] <aa-danimal-shop> couldnt find any info on it on the wiki
[16:15:36] <cradek> maybe I spelled it wrong, one minute
[16:16:00] <cradek> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/gui_axis.html#r1_11_7
[16:16:19] <cradek> hm, the docs are inconsistent about whether a space belongs there
[16:20:13] <aa-danimal-shop> maybe i should try the space
[16:24:26] <aa-danimal-shop> just sent you an email with the files
[16:24:55] <aa-danimal-shop> JT-Work: how's the build going?
[16:24:57] <JT-Work> aa-danimal-shop: I figured out what was wrong with the Hardinge!
[16:25:30] <JT-Work> the turret encoder has a short and was drawing the 24 buss down
[16:25:59] <aa-danimal-shop> ouch!
[16:26:05] <JT-Work> took me and my other brother John a half an hour to trace it out this morning
[16:26:19] <aa-danimal-shop> did it damage anything?
[16:26:39] <JT-Work> no, the power supply just drops the voltage down
[16:26:44] <aa-danimal-shop> ahh
[16:26:47] <JT-Work> when it is shorted
[16:27:13] <JT-Work> I'm assuming that was the original problem with the lathe LOL
[16:27:20] <aa-danimal-shop> i had a similar issue with the original control on my hardinge, a fan was seized and would do the same thing
[16:27:44] <aa-danimal-shop> kept popping fuses actually
[16:28:24] <aa-danimal-shop> so did you fix the short?
[16:28:40] <aa-danimal-shop> cradek: the space didnt do anything.
[16:28:51] <JT-Work> then some goober snot took a bolt out of my tower so it fell down yesterday so no internet
[16:29:10] <JT-Work> I've not dug into the turret yet
[16:29:20] <JT-Work> I just unplugged that wire for now
[16:29:28] <aa-danimal-shop> cradek: how would it work in parenthasies? wouldnt it just ignore it like a comment?
[16:30:09] <aa-danimal-shop> JT-Work: so is it moving yet?
[16:31:02] <JT-Work> no, I am in the process of checking all the I/O first... the outputs work and now the inputs are ok except for the turret encoder
[16:31:12] <cradek> aa-danimal-shop: some comments are magic
[16:31:23] <cradek> aa-danimal-shop: maybe it's just broken - it should stop the preview
[16:31:25] <JT-Work> once I get past that ti's on to the drive enables
[16:31:33] <JT-Work> it's
[16:32:10] <JT-Work> LOL, I can move the X and Z with an allen wrench on the end of the ball screw
[16:32:41] <cradek> the hnc is like that too. with the original control, you had to do that if it got on a limit switch.
[16:32:55] <cradek> (and there were no soft limits, of course)
[16:33:49] <aa-danimal-shop> yea they move easy
[16:34:03] <JT-Work> do you have any idea what turret encoder looks like?
[16:34:18] <cradek> magnet over a bunch of reed switches
[16:34:38] <JT-Work> ok
[16:34:41] <cradek> it's not an encoder, it gives absolute position output in four bits of binary
[16:34:49] <cradek> (and yay for that)
[16:34:53] <cradek> yours might be different of course
[16:35:08] <JT-Work> yep mine is the same
[16:36:25] <aa-danimal-shop> cradek: i just realized the (AXIS,stop) is hiding some of the preview, but not all of it
[16:36:38] <cradek> it only hides the part that follows it
[16:36:45] <cradek> (should)
[16:36:57] <aa-danimal-shop> i put it at the top of the program
[16:37:29] <aa-danimal-shop> but it doesnt hide at least 3 tools
[16:39:19] <cradek> aa-danimal-shop: does it come back on at tool change?
[16:39:21] <aa-danimal-shop> i take that back, looks like it just doesnt hide 2 tools, the first tool and maybe the 4th or 5th
[16:39:40] <aa-danimal-shop> cradek: no
[16:46:37] <sealive> hi channel i finally managet a install of emc2 on xubuntu
[16:47:05] <sealive> now i'am up and reading all the infs to get startet with it
[16:47:07] <bill2or3> huzzah
[16:53:09] <cradek> aa-danimal-shop: got your email, thanks. I will look at it tonight.
[16:53:52] <aa-danimal-shop> no problem, i finished the parts, so no rush
[16:54:01] <aa-danimal-shop> thanks for looking at it
[16:54:26] <cradek> aa-danimal-shop: I forgot you have steppers. when Z didn't retract did you see an incorrect path in the AXIS backplot, or was it just wrong machine motion?
[16:55:30] <aa-danimal-shop> i cant recall
[16:56:06] <aa-danimal-shop> i know at least one time the home positiom moved when it didnt rtetract, meaning it thought the stepper moved, but it didnt
[16:57:10] <cradek> unless you see it in the backplot (or reproduce it in sim) I think the chances are good it's just steppers doing what they sometimes do :-(
[16:58:00] <aa-danimal-shop> another time it didnt retract it did go to the proper home position
[16:59:28] <aa-danimal-shop> hmm
[17:00:07] <aa-danimal-shop> it just struck me as odd since i've never had this problem and it was only for that one tool
[17:00:25] <cradek> yeah that does sound odd
[17:00:31] <aa-danimal-shop> the rest of the program worked fine, including a peck drill
[17:00:48] <cradek> do you do something special with the tool? single step it? change feed override?
[17:01:02] <aa-danimal-shop> i peck drilled 72 holes without issues
[17:01:10] <aa-danimal-shop> nope
[17:01:20] <aa-danimal-shop> it's the first tool in the program i sent you
[17:01:58] <aa-danimal-shop> all it's doing is milling circles
[17:02:33] <aa-danimal-shop> and it worked fine once i split the program in half
[17:02:39] <sealive> where in wiki is the list for Driver Type coudt not dind them
[17:04:09] <aa-danimal-shop> i gotta go rent a carpet cleaner, brb
[17:16:10] <sealive> found it http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Stepper_Drive_Timing
[17:46:40] <clytle374> linux command to query executable file type?
[17:47:29] <clytle374> the machine I just built says that a file doesn't exist, while I'm looking at it. 2 other machines run it fine.
[17:47:31] <archivist_attic> one sets a permisstion to make executable
[17:48:00] <clytle374> it isn't an execute issue.
[17:48:13] <archivist_attic> and have your path search where you are as well
[17:48:28] <archivist_attic> type ./file
[17:49:32] <clytle374> I'm in the directory. I type ./setup and it gives a "file not found error"
[17:49:44] <clytle374> Not that exact error
[17:50:24] <cradek> what's the file
[17:50:36] <JT-Work> aa your cpu's are back in the mail headed your way
[17:50:46] <clytle374> the xilinx 9.2 setup
[17:51:06] <archivist_attic> clytle374, note linux is case sensitive
[17:51:48] <clytle374> I need to know if it is an .out type, I don't have that in the kernel.
[17:52:46] <cradek> file
[17:53:03] <cradek> it's probably a script, not a binary
[17:53:20] <JT-Work> aa-danimal-shop: your cpu's are back in the mail headed your way
[17:56:01] <tlab> how can I change the jog speed if I have it turned all the way up and I want it to jog faster?
[17:56:08] <clytle374> ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV)
[17:56:09] <aa-danimal-shop> JT-Work: thanks!
[17:56:22] <clytle374> No 32 bit support?
[17:56:28] <aa-danimal-shop> tlab: you need to add a max velocity line in your ini in the traj section
[17:56:47] <aa-danimal-shop> i believe
[17:57:01] <aa-danimal-shop> is it maxed at 60ipm?
[17:57:05] <tlab> yup ok.. I had one I just changed it
[17:57:13] <tlab> was maxed at 24ipm
[17:57:14] <aa-danimal-shop> ok
[17:57:22] <aa-danimal-shop> youch, thats slow
[17:57:50] <clytle374> Not to be lazy, but what is the package for 32 bit support in ubuntu 9.10? It is really cold where the computer is, so I'm working it all remote.
[17:58:07] <tlab> lytle is my last name!
[17:58:18] <clytle374> me too
[17:59:16] <aa-danimal-shop> maybe you're long lost twin brothers like Danny DaVito and arnold schwarzenegger in that movie
[17:59:39] <tlab> I'd be danny davito
[17:59:49] <tlab> I'm short and no muscle
[18:00:03] <aa-danimal-shop> lol
[18:00:14] <tlab> ok so now when I try and move the machine faster I get a join 0 following error
[18:00:25] <clytle374> I'm not short, but Schwarzenagger isn't a good description of me.
[18:00:29] <aa-danimal-shop> stepper or servo?
[18:00:32] <tlab> step
[18:01:19] <aa-danimal-shop> do you have your max velocity set correctly for each axis?
[18:01:41] <tlab> no
[18:01:53] <tlab> are they all suppose to be the same?
[18:02:03] <aa-danimal-shop> depends on the machine
[18:02:25] <aa-danimal-shop> but you need to set your max acceleration and max velocity for each axis
[18:02:39] <tlab> ya but I'm trying to figure that out now
[18:02:54] <tlab> because the stepconfig is limiting me to .3 or .4 max velocity
[18:03:46] <aa-danimal-shop> yea i dont know anything about stepconf, i have mesa boards so i cant use it
[18:04:59] <aa-danimal-shop> JT-Work: so do you think the poor latency was an issue with the 5i20, so i have at least one good processor coming back to me?
[18:05:41] <JT-Work> no, I think both cpu's are good
[18:06:34] <aa-danimal-shop> u tried the other one i sent too?
[18:06:38] <JT-Work> the speed is not correct that I marked on the package as after I marked them I realized that was the max that my board would do
[18:06:45] <aa-danimal-shop> lol
[18:07:10] <aa-danimal-shop> did you check bios for a muliplier?
[18:07:29] <aa-danimal-shop> i know mine there was a way to increase it
[18:07:36] <aa-danimal-shop> in bios
[18:07:47] <JT-Work> no
[18:07:53] <tlab> ugh so looks like it's a limit of the parallel port... 0.4 velocity for that port low?
[18:09:50] <aa-danimal-shop> tlab: wish i can help, but i have no idea... i think it has something to do with your latency and the step length
[18:10:52] <aa-danimal-shop> so if it's that low, chances are you cant get much faster unless you decrease your microstepping, decrease your latency, or get a Mesa 5i20 or something
[18:11:31] <jackc> * jackc decreased microstepping to get faster rapids
[18:11:34] <aa-danimal-shop> but like i said, i never used a parport so i'm just making a slightly educated guess
[18:28:14] <erjos> hello everybody
[18:28:40] <erjos> hope you have a nice time(painless_
[18:29:17] <erjos> im running in problems configuring my encoders
[18:29:52] <erjos> anyone available for some help?
[18:30:02] <erjos> will be much apresciated
[18:30:48] <clytle374> Just ask, maybe someone will know.
[18:31:21] <erjos> i have a industrial servo machine with incremental encoders and Mesa5i20 interface cards
[18:31:52] <erjos> in the process of retrofiting im finding dificulties in setting the right machine size
[18:32:27] <seb_kuzminsky> erjos: are you using the m5i20 driver or hostmot2? how many lines on your encoders?
[18:32:38] <erjos> with input_scale set to 6000 or even 60000 i have satisfactory results in axes movements
[18:32:47] <erjos> hostmot
[18:33:04] <erjos> it is a 500 pulse encoder
[18:33:16] <seb_kuzminsky> which version of emc2 are you running?
[18:33:45] <erjos> emc2.3.4
[18:34:38] <erjos> the problem is that i got false readins from the encoders.
[18:35:36] <erjos> they say my machine is for example 1 mm long,but i have a 2000 mm long machine and min limit and maximum limit set to o and 2000 in the ini file
[18:36:30] <erjos> if i put the machine scale to 600 i got a for example 100 mm axis length
[18:36:46] <erjos> sory input scale for x axis
[18:37:03] <seb_kuzminsky> are the encoders on your servo shafts?
[18:37:13] <erjos> yes
[18:37:25] <seb_kuzminsky> 1:1 coupling from servos to leadscrews?
[18:37:31] <erjos> yes
[18:38:01] <seb_kuzminsky> 5 mm/thread leadscrews?
[18:38:08] <erjos> i got aprox 32mm of travel per one revolution
[18:38:19] <seb_kuzminsky> whoa, that's a lot
[18:39:13] <erjos> yeah,its a fast machine
[18:39:59] <erjos> distance thread to thread is 32mm for the x axis and 26mm for Y
[18:41:21] <clytle374> cradek, it was the 32-bit compatibility. I really didn't expect that to lead to a file not found type error.
[18:41:54] <seb_kuzminsky> ok, so: 4 edges/line * 500 lines/rev * 1/32 rev/mm = 62.5 edges/mm
[18:41:58] <erjos> the problem is that when i put the inputscale to 62.5(which is my aproximative exact calculations and axis length matches) i have no way to move the axis with any PID combination
[18:42:16] <seb_kuzminsky> hm, why not?
[18:42:36] <erjos> it makes the joint follow error
[18:43:25] <erjos> i have tried all possible pid combinations but no way to move the axis
[18:44:09] <erjos> with 60 000 input scale i got perfect moving but the machine size is all wrong
[18:44:37] <seb_kuzminsky> there was a bug in i think you should set the input scale to the number we both calculated, and then tune the servos
[18:44:53] <seb_kuzminsky> that can be tricky, but it's the right way to go
[18:45:36] <erjos> i started with P 100,nothing P50 nothing,P10 Nothing P200 nothing P1000 nothing
[18:45:50] <erjos> tried all the calculations
[18:45:56] <erjos> all the combinations
[18:45:58] <seb_kuzminsky> no movement at all?
[18:46:14] <erjos> just stop and joint0 following error
[18:46:33] <erjos> axis try to make just a tinny move and stops
[18:46:54] <seb_kuzminsky> that sounds like too much movement. For PID tuning it's a good idea to set ferror pretty high, try 10mm
[18:47:07] <seb_kuzminsky> you can set it back down when the axis is tuned well
[18:47:31] <erjos> thanx,just 2 sec to try
[18:51:11] <erjos> i got now a terrible oscillation (axis shaking) with P100 I 0 D 0
[18:51:17] <seb_kuzminsky> great!
[18:51:30] <erjos> smth better yeah!!
[18:51:37] <seb_kuzminsky> make sure I, D, FF0, FF1, & FF2 are all 0
[18:51:41] <seb_kuzminsky> then set P to 1
[18:51:54] <erjos> ok good
[18:51:59] <erjos> 2 secs again
[18:53:24] <erjos> i got good signs
[18:53:30] <erjos> with P 0.5
[18:53:46] <erjos> no more joint0 follow error
[18:53:48] <frallzor> anyone into electronics and up for a small check of a schematic? =)
[18:54:28] <seb_kuzminsky> now it's just a small matter of tuning... maybe here is some good info (i haven't read it): http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?Tuning_EMC2/HAL_PID_Loops
[18:55:09] <erjos> john kasunich?
[18:55:29] <erjos> i have read this
[18:55:35] <erjos> thanks a lot
[18:55:48] <seb_kuzminsky> no problem! glad it's starting to work for you :-)
[18:55:53] <erjos> any starting numbers ?
[18:56:26] <erjos> what you think about normal PID parameters that should work?
[18:56:37] <seb_kuzminsky> it really depends on your machine - you'll just have to experiment & play with it
[18:56:59] <clytle374> There is no normal when it comes to PID
[18:57:19] <erjos> And just for an idea,the Ferror rate should be lower as possible?
[18:57:49] <seb_kuzminsky> once you've tuned it to where you want it, you can use the ferror you end up with, plus some small margin
[18:58:47] <erjos> but where to find the Ferror numbers,or you mean trying with ini editing?
[19:00:23] <seb_kuzminsky> part of tuning your servos should be to run halscope, and looking at the commanded position, the feedback position, and the following error
[19:00:40] <seb_kuzminsky> see how those curves relate & how then change as you tune the pid controller to minimize ferror
[19:00:42] <alex_joni> erjos: ferror numbers come from the design of the machine
[19:06:53] <erjos> its a 20 year old machine
[19:07:48] <erjos> and now trying,i got no more following error but no move at all from the axis
[19:08:09] <erjos> i cant go higher that 0.6-0.8 for P
[19:08:21] <erjos> at 1 it start trembling the ground
[19:08:48] <cradek> are your servo amps velocity mode?
[19:08:55] <erjos> yes
[19:09:23] <cradek> are they tuned adequately? can you move the axes in a controlled fashion by giving them a small velocity command with a battery?
[19:09:24] <erjos> im runing them from mesa 7i33 analog servo card
[19:09:51] <erjos> yes with a 2 volt they move smoothly
[19:10:09] <erjos> even 3 volt or 4 is ok
[19:10:17] <cradek> at 2/10 volt do they move about 2/10 of the max velocity?
[19:10:18] <erjos> but higher they run like hell
[19:10:54] <erjos> how can i figure this out
[19:11:14] <cradek> well, it doesn't have to be perfect. does it seem right?
[19:12:45] <erjos> Cradek,if you read at first i explained that i can move the axis perfectly from emc with a inputscale grater than my encoder calculations
[19:13:17] <erjos> the problem is that this gives me erroneous reading in the machine size
[19:13:58] <erjos> now,with seb,i tried rising the ferror rate to 10 and i got no more joint0following error
[19:14:05] <cradek> then I think seb is right and your tuning is bad
[19:14:25] <erjos> Hmmm
[19:14:45] <erjos> im runing now everything with 0. margins
[19:14:57] <erjos> 0.1 0.5 0.7 for P
[19:15:09] <erjos> but this seems anormal for me
[19:15:23] <erjos> and the machine dont move at all
[19:15:26] <cradek> your encoder feedback is very coarse
[19:15:40] <erjos> 500 pulses
[19:15:55] <cradek> there should be a P setting between "doesn't move at all" and "oscillates wildly"
[19:16:14] <erjos> 0.5-1
[19:16:18] <cradek> "doesn't move at all" sounds strange. I would expect some motion, maybe slow
[19:16:42] <erjos> it just tries to move and stops without any error
[19:16:58] <cradek> earlier you said 0.7 doesn't move at all. now you say between 0.5 and 1 moves?
[19:17:27] <erjos> nono i said at 0.5 - 0.8 it doesnt oscillate
[19:17:39] <erjos> at 1 it oscillates wild
[19:18:00] <skunkworks_> what does - tries to move and stops without eny error mean?
[19:18:06] <erjos> but even at 0.5 or whatever preoscillating numbers are,i got no move at all
[19:18:12] <cradek> there should be a P setting where you have some (maybe sluggish) controlled motion.
[19:18:37] <erjos> before it was the joint0following error and it dosent moved
[19:18:56] <erjos> now its no error anymore but still id doesnt move again
[19:19:13] <erjos> im running at ferror =10
[19:19:22] <erjos> machine units are mm
[19:20:34] <erjos> now i will try to lower the max velocity
[19:20:41] <cradek> if the machine is not moving, you will not get a following error until you've commanded 10mm of motion
[19:21:31] <erjos> as i see from the emc when i jog in any direstion it asks for velocity 52
[19:21:43] <erjos> maybe this is too high
[19:21:46] <erjos> ?
[19:22:16] <cradek> when tuning, you will want to move slowly at first, and as the tuning gets better, you can move faster
[19:24:46] <erjos> cradek,in fact with 0.7 P i got a tinny move
[19:25:30] <erjos> i cant see it by free eye,but the encoders read that the machine is moving in 0. mm
[19:27:47] <erjos> the axis position is incrementing by 10.1 10.2 10.3 mm when i keep the jog(continiousmode) pressed
[19:27:47] <erjos> so i got a tinny move
[19:27:47] <erjos> what does this means for you?
[19:29:01] <cradek> maybe you have it set to jog very slowly? what does the jog speed slider say?
[19:29:35] <erjos> 60 mm/min
[19:29:36] <erjos> its too slw i think
[19:29:56] <cradek> ok, 1mm/sec you should be able to see
[19:30:34] <erjos> yes,it moves o little bit
[19:31:01] <seb_kuzminsky> erjos: is your maxvel 52 mm/min?
[19:32:20] <erjos> 60
[19:33:52] <erjos> i rised it to 120mm.min now
[19:34:03] <erjos> and i got the following error
[19:35:52] <erjos> Rised D=1 smth better
[19:35:59] <erjos> no follow error
[19:36:34] <cradek> you are going to have to follow seb's advice and use halscope to plot commanded vs feedback position, and following error
[19:37:23] <cradek> remember you can be 10mm away from your commanded position and not get the following error. not getting an error is only a very general start.
[19:37:56] <erjos> yeah,thanks guys,its starting to make sense now
[19:38:05] <cradek> good, you will get it
[19:38:12] <cradek> you have controlled motion already - that is a big start
[19:38:17] <erjos> thanks a lot SEb and Cradek
[19:39:25] <erjos> yeah its a lot of brainstorming in the process,i know
[19:39:41] <erjos> thanks for sharing your experience
[19:40:26] <cradek> welcome
[19:40:37] <seb_kuzminsky> let us know how it goes
[19:41:52] <erjos> for sure
[20:09:55] <seb_kuzminsky> lol, anyone need a truckload of bridgeports? http://cgi.ebay.com/TRUCK-LOAD-BRIDGEPORT-MILLING-MACHINE_W0QQitemZ360226252752QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Mills?hash=item53df2867d0#ht_500wt_1182
[20:14:51] <cradek> wow, looks like they're new.
[20:14:55] <cradek> wonder if that's real.
[20:15:25] <seb_kuzminsky> you'll have some room in your garage soon, maybe you should buy one
[20:15:41] <cradek> I think that would be silly...
[20:20:05] <aa-danimal-shop> hey i used to work in Farmington, CT
[20:20:21] <aa-danimal-shop> Ah i heard of Acorn MFG
[20:20:39] <aa-danimal-shop> more than likely legit
[20:21:09] <aa-danimal-shop> not a bad price
[20:21:21] <aa-danimal-shop> too bad they're step pulley heads
[20:21:31] <cradek> yeah, you could probably have one delivered for $5k
[20:21:44] <cradek> true but they are so quiet...
[20:22:06] <aa-danimal-shop> true
[20:22:29] <aa-danimal-shop> i have a step pulley head on mine, and i just use a VFD
[20:22:40] <clytle374> Vari speeds aren't too load when all the parts are still tight
[20:22:42] <aa-danimal-shop> works fine, if not better than a vari speed head
[20:22:51] <seb_kuzminsky> aa-danimal-shop: how's that working out? any low-speed torque issues?
[20:22:58] <clytle374> *loud
[20:24:24] <aa-danimal-shop> seb_kuzminsky: works great, as for low torque, i can always just throw it in low gear if needed, but i can cut pretty healthy cuts with a 5/8" endmill no problem with it on the second slowest pulley and in high gear
[20:24:38] <aa-danimal-shop> in tool steel
[20:24:42] <aa-danimal-shop> or whatever
[20:25:38] <aa-danimal-shop> 400rpm's in high gear with a heavy cut are no problem
[20:26:06] <aa-danimal-shop> and i just run it up to 120hz if i need to go faster
[20:26:53] <aa-danimal-shop> i havent moved the belt once since i put the vfd on, and i only needed to actually use low gear once
[20:27:01] <frallzor> http://pici.se/p/large/TTneZowLF/ happy! a bit rough, but hey, its wired :P
[20:35:30] <dan1mal_garage> damn internet
[20:35:37] <skunkworks_> I still laugh when I see how small the gecko drives are..
[20:35:43] <dan1mal_garage> LOL
[20:35:52] <dan1mal_garage> those are tiny
[20:36:50] <frallzor> they sure are
[20:36:59] <frallzor> I though they were at least twice that size
[20:37:02] <frallzor> but nooo
[20:38:20] <dan1mal_garage> well you know what they say, it's not the side of the drive, it's the motion of the machine
[20:38:42] <dan1mal_garage> but i've really only heard people with small drives saying that
[20:39:04] <bill2or3> heh
[20:41:14] <jackc> wow...
[20:43:01] <dan1mal_garage> ?
[20:43:47] <jackc> just the exchange above heh
[20:44:38] <dan1mal_garage> i have no clue what you're talking about
[20:44:49] <dan1mal_garage> we were just discussing servo drives
[20:45:19] <jackc> quite
[20:55:34] <nmz787> hello?\
[20:55:57] <nmz787> anyone home?
[20:56:09] <seb_kuzminsky> hi nmz787
[20:56:18] <nmz787> hi
[20:56:27] <nmz787> i am looking for some help with emc
[20:56:42] <seb_kuzminsky> you've come to the right place
[20:56:56] <nmz787> my friends and I are designing a 3 axis CNC controller with a USB port on it, that will look like a serial port
[20:57:34] <nmz787> its going to have a PIC microprocessor controlling a trinamic controller that will driver trinamic motor drivers
[20:57:44] <jackc> cool
[20:57:56] <jackc> how are you going to handle real time event
[20:57:56] <jackc> s
[20:57:57] <nmz787> I'm not sure the best way to interface this to software such as EMC
[20:58:15] <seb_kuzminsky> emc generally doesnt like to interface to USB, because USB has so much latency
[20:58:27] <seb_kuzminsky> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?Emc2HardwareDesign#USB
[20:58:30] <skunkworks_> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Emc2HardwareDesign
[20:58:33] <nmz787> well since the board will look like a serial port, we were thinking we could just send it move commands, i.e. X axis move +800 steps
[20:58:36] <skunkworks_> heh
[20:58:45] <nmz787> ohh
[20:58:47] <nmz787> hmm
[20:59:13] <nmz787> i had suggested we use a better microcontroller with a big buffer on it
[20:59:25] <nmz787> then just download a movement list
[20:59:35] <seb_kuzminsky> that would probably work, but that's not how emc works
[20:59:37] <nmz787> but that would be more complex in circuit design, as well as programming
[20:59:52] <celeron55> you can't get nearly as good motion as with emc
[21:00:08] <seb_kuzminsky> emc wants to be closer to the machine than that, and have the buffer of moves in itself instead of in a helper processor
[21:00:51] <skunkworks_> plus it gets really messy quick with FO and such.
[21:00:58] <celeron55> and emc does that because it's the best way to do it
[21:01:36] <skunkworks_> emc doesn't want to be a fancy GUI - it wants to be the machine control. ;)
[21:01:55] <nmz787> hmm
[21:02:16] <nmz787> so you're saying there is too much/unpredictable latency with USB?
[21:02:27] <seb_kuzminsky> that's one problem, yes
[21:02:34] <nmz787> we could add a breakout to the serial port for the PIC
[21:02:47] <nmz787> but i see that the serial is just too slow
[21:02:53] <seb_kuzminsky> serial goes up to about 115 Kbits/second, but that's too slow - exactly
[21:02:57] <nmz787> for PWM at least
[21:02:59] <celeron55> we're saying you'd have to re-code so much of stuff that's already in emc that it's not worth it (and the mcu would probably be very overloaded)
[21:03:07] <nmz787> is there a way to modify EMC to send serial commands?
[21:03:12] <archivist_attic> pic could not handle the maths for all the loops
[21:03:24] <jackc> nmz787: jitter in usb is what youre worried about
[21:03:24] <nmz787> which loops?
[21:03:40] <jackc> nmz787: i bet you could handle the control on your uC and modify axis to just push the nc commands to the controller
[21:03:46] <jackc> but thats sidestepping EMC
[21:04:31] <nmz787> jackc: jitter means what?
[21:04:39] <archivist_attic> nmz787, emc has feedback and keeps all the axes within an error limit
[21:06:11] <archivist_attic> error in loops and command timing
[21:06:41] <celeron55> if you use an mcu, you should probably interface with it in the same way the mesa cards are interfaced
[21:06:56] <seb_kuzminsky> mesa = pci or epp
[21:07:01] <nmz787> hmm
[21:07:06] <skunkworks_> boy - we sound like a bunch of negative nancys.. ;)
[21:07:22] <nmz787> well this is good criticism
[21:07:26] <seb_kuzminsky> skunkworks: well, serial really doesnt work too well for this application!
[21:07:28] <nmz787> or whatever you call it
[21:07:40] <skunkworks_> I know. :)
[21:07:45] <nmz787> so EMC doesn't output MOV commands from a CAD file, etc?
[21:08:05] <nmz787> is there a free program that does that?
[21:08:17] <archivist_attic> it has a trajectory planner to get moves right
[21:08:24] <nmz787> hmm
[21:08:43] <nmz787> does EMC support plugins?
[21:08:50] <archivist_attic> its seriously better than mcu attempts
[21:09:31] <archivist_attic> for what definition of plugins, as that is a yes in certain areas
[21:10:07] <nmz787> does anyone think it would be a bad idea to write a plugin that takes the trajectory plan from EMC and make conversion table to send out over serial to the uC?
[21:10:12] <cradek> (I don't think you really can do motion control in a pic, especially if you think the pic will generate step pulses)
[21:10:37] <nmz787> tinyPICs do have PWM with their own clocks and pulse step counting
[21:10:40] <archivist_attic> nmz787, you forget the feedback, its realtime
[21:11:08] <jackc> nmz787: jitter is the derivative of lag
[21:11:10] <celeron55> do the mesa cards send feedback back to emc?
[21:11:15] <cradek> nmz787: what problem do you have that you think will be solved by this external device?
[21:11:22] <skunkworks_> celeron55: yes
[21:11:38] <celeron55> and emc tells them only the wanted speed of each axis?
[21:11:40] <nmz787> not all computers have paralllel ports
[21:12:08] <jackc> USB is faster than parport too but its not reliable
[21:12:14] <cradek> ok, I see then.
[21:12:42] <cradek> currently parports are cheap and easy to get for any PC that has slots. EMC also has really great solutions based on PCI cards.
[21:13:07] <archivist_attic> some of us hunt for pc that do or use a mesa card
[21:13:08] <nmz787> what about laptops?
[21:13:09] <jackc> ^ agreed
[21:13:29] <skunkworks_> laptops are usually not good for realtime os's
[21:13:31] <jackc> nmz787: tbh my lathe uses a laptop and it works great. im not saying USB wouldnt be cool, but...
[21:13:47] <cradek> it's true that some laptops have neither parallel port nor pci slot.
[21:13:57] <archivist_attic> nmz787, laptops have power problems that cause latency errors
[21:13:59] <celeron55> you can find laptops that work, but not all do
[21:14:00] <jackc> yes, including the one im on
[21:14:20] <celeron55> you have to find an another one, then
[21:14:27] <cradek> thanks, I just wondered what your goal was.
[21:15:03] <nmz787> hmm
[21:15:17] <skunkworks_> nmz787: honestly - and I hate to say it - your model fits better with mach. (there are already some similar solutions that are unfinished - like smoothstepper)
[21:15:19] <jackc> nmz787: were certainly not stopping you, just saying its not super easy
[21:16:17] <cradek> IMO it's not a good fit for EMC. But some other systems work with a motion queue setup like you're discussing. It would be cool if you could do that with/for free software, but you have a lot of work ahead of you.
[21:16:26] <archivist_attic> one day someone will crack the synchonous mode of usb
[21:16:46] <nmz787> is mach free?
[21:16:47] <seb_kuzminsky> new-ish laptops have ExpressCard, which is PCI-Express, so they should work with the 3x20 and hostmot2
[21:17:02] <cradek> nmz787: no, mach is neither no-cost nor open
[21:17:10] <celeron55> for a very small mill, for milling pcb's or something like that, i actually think there should be a serial->mcu solution. someone would have to write a serial driver for emc which would output speed data and input position data from the mcu
[21:17:10] <jackc> nmz787: when i worked in a HAAS shop i set up serial control wherein the mills just received a single g-code line at a time and executed it, was kinda cool
[21:17:37] <cradek> celeron55: serial's not fast enough to do that - see that url
[21:18:13] <celeron55> i'm 100% sure i could make a setup with serial ports that could engrave pcb's
[21:18:24] <celeron55> if i wanted
[21:18:24] <jackc> cradek: but are there controllers out there that take cmds like "go 35 steps" ? sorry, i dont know how any of this works other than parport
[21:18:25] <cradek> and to think rs232 is going to be more common than parallel ports in the future is probably misguided
[21:18:32] <jackc> true
[21:19:10] <nmz787> USB to serial is very common
[21:19:31] <celeron55> usb to serial sure is very bad in latency
[21:20:07] <nmz787> soo
[21:20:15] <nmz787> if i sent move commands
[21:20:39] <nmz787> i.e. x move 35 steps y move 35 steps z move 0 steps
[21:20:47] <nmz787> and not move until a GO
[21:20:48] <nmz787> is sent
[21:20:50] <cradek> (USB to parallel is common too, but that doesn't help you with realtime)
[21:20:54] <nmz787> then latency wont matter
[21:21:16] <nmz787> anyone disagree?
[21:21:33] <celeron55> yes
[21:21:52] <celeron55> you can't move fast that way because you'd have practically no controlled acceleration
[21:22:31] <jackc> itd be tuned on the controller
[21:22:32] <celeron55> the machine would always need to be in a state where it can stop instantly or start instantly at full speed
[21:22:58] <nmz787> yeah the controller can do speed control
[21:23:31] <celeron55> i guess interfacing with emc can't work that way
[21:23:35] <cradek> the controller would have to do the full motion planning in order to move along the desired path.
[21:24:09] <cradek> you need coordinated motion, which is only barely like three motors going at their own speeds
[21:24:18] <celeron55> nmz787: what about when there's a circle in the g-code?
[21:24:24] <celeron55> can you do that with your mcu?
[21:24:30] <celeron55> i bet not
[21:24:52] <cradek> well the mcu would have to follow the circular path, just like the straight path
[21:25:29] <cradek> also a motion planner has to blend adjacent moves together so the machine does not have to stop at each segment. it has to do this while staying along the programmed path.
[21:25:52] <nmz787> hmm
[21:26:02] <nmz787> does EMC have a command line mode?
[21:26:18] <nmz787> there is a 66mhz atmel AVR that can run linux
[21:26:28] <cradek> if you want your device to support threading on a lathe, or tapping on a mill, you need to sense the spindle position and adjust the speed along the programmed path accordingly
[21:27:17] <celeron55> nmz787: i guess anything that can run linux with the RTAI patches can run EMC
[21:27:37] <celeron55> https://www.rtai.org/
[21:28:06] <celeron55> (you probably will have problems building it, but most of the code should work)
[21:28:30] <nmz787> hmm
[21:28:31] <nmz787> grr
[21:28:39] <nmz787> thanks for all the help so far
[21:28:41] <celeron55> (the AVR is not on the list, though)
[21:29:04] <nmz787> i had an inkling of thought that told me this would be a bit harder than I first thought
[21:29:06] <celeron55> just get a computer with good realtime performance and a parallel port
[21:29:09] <ries> frallzor: dude!!!
[21:29:15] <celeron55> and everything will be very easy
[21:29:40] <nmz787> so in that case you would just have the parport driving the H-bridges?
[21:29:55] <nmz787> or the stepper drivers rahter?
[21:30:01] <cradek> EMC can do either
[21:30:02] <celeron55> stepper drivers, preferably
[21:30:11] <nmz787> and i'm guessing EMC can do microstepping, or would the drivers do that?
[21:30:17] <cradek> that's a driver job
[21:30:30] <skunkworks_> preferably my foot... ;)
[21:31:02] <celeron55> and while you *can* drive h-bridges with emc, you might run out of parallel port pins
[21:32:24] <celeron55> so just make your mcu to a stepper driver
[21:33:15] <i_tarzan> celeron55, EMC depends on RTAI ?
[21:33:54] <skunkworks_> yes - for realtime control.
[21:34:37] <nmz787> isn't the control just 3d vector math?
[21:35:36] <celeron55> i guess it's a boatload of complex stuff you don't want to care about 8)
[21:36:03] <cradek> EMC is a thousand things we're glad are already written, all smooshed together
[21:36:36] <skunkworks_> (smooshed is a technical term)
[21:36:43] <cradek> yes
[21:37:17] <celeron55> and we're extremely glad they seem to have been written fairly well!
[21:37:39] <cradek> well most :-)
[21:37:50] <celeron55> many enough :P
[21:37:56] <skunkworks_> it can do things like this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35tHYaDUmZQ&feature=channel
[21:38:29] <skunkworks_> or this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C740zS9R9kk
[21:39:34] <skunkworks_> or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S1NIhwCzB0&feature=channel
[21:41:04] <nmz787> so can you get to the trajectory planner easily with a CAD file?
[21:41:14] <nmz787> is it like this basically, in text form?
[21:41:15] <nmz787> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?Trapezoidal_Velocity_Profile_Trajectory_Planner
[21:47:17] <nmz787> how do I get to the trajectory list if I have a CAD file?
[21:47:36] <bosko> Probably you must calculate it...
[21:47:47] <bosko> And good evening to everyone
[21:47:57] <nmz787> I mean from EMC
[21:48:10] <bosko> Ups, i dont kno
[21:48:11] <nmz787> is there a "compile trajectory list" function?
[21:48:13] <bosko> w
[21:48:25] <celeron55> i guess there is no such option
[21:48:47] <cradek> no, the path is planned in realtime. at each period the correct position is calculated.
[21:49:09] <nmz787> there is an open loop mode though
[21:49:11] <cradek> if you plan ahead, you can't get things like feed override right
[21:49:15] <nmz787> is there a simulation mode?
[21:49:42] <celeron55> open loop mode just assumes the actual position is exactly the one that was asked
[21:50:04] <celeron55> and that's how it is with steppers
[21:50:37] <celeron55> (as long as you don't abuse them)
[21:51:53] <nmz787> so is there a simulation mode>?
[21:54:50] <Guest720> ?
[21:55:27] <celeron55> nmz787: yes there is
[21:56:10] <nmz787> do i need to install the RTAI to use it?
[21:56:28] <cradek> no
[21:56:31] <nmz787> if i'm to write a converter for the trajectory list, then I needn't use RTAI
[21:56:35] <nmz787> kool
[21:59:04] <skunkworks_> cradek: would the stand alone interp be a good start?
[21:59:45] <cradek> maybe, if you wanted to do all the motion planning elsewhere
[21:59:52] <cradek> at least you wouldn't need to figure out how to parse gcode
[22:00:21] <celeron55> i think that using any part of emc for something that's not emc is way too complicated
[22:00:53] <cradek> celeron55: if making free software, it's smart to reuse the parts of existing free software that fit your needs
[22:01:18] <celeron55> well, yes, if they fit
[22:01:49] <cradek> and whether the payoff justifies the work is just a matter of opinion that's different for everyone...
[22:02:20] <nmz787> seems that the trajectory list will give vectors and speed
[22:02:29] <nmz787> so that seems like an easy way to control what I want to do
[22:02:37] <nmz787> which is a laser CNC mill
[22:03:10] <cradek> arcs and helixes are not vectors, but are represented in gcode
[22:04:16] <Jymmm> cradek: huh?
[22:05:12] <cradek> a vector has a length and direction, and does not have enough information to represent an arc
[22:05:34] <Jymmm> bezier curve?
[22:05:53] <cradek> bezier curves also cannot make arcs
[22:06:24] <cradek> you can approximate an arc with lots of vectors (or bezier curves)
[22:06:48] <cradek> but a device processing gcode ought to make regular old circular arcs as an exact native operation
[22:07:29] <cradek> (last statement is a matter of opinion - the rest are facts)
[22:08:25] <cradek> bbl
[22:11:06] <Jymmm> How is this not an arc? M 128.57143,578.07647 C 320,295.21933 391.42857,555.21933 391.42857,555.21933
[22:11:52] <alex_joni> it's just jibberish
[22:12:47] <aa-danimal-shop> alex_joni: do be expected from Jymmm :)
[22:12:50] <aa-danimal-shop> to*
[22:13:10] <Jymmm> No, it's actually the xml output of a bezier curve
[22:13:13] <alex_joni> aa-danimal-shop: I'd be careful if I were you
[22:13:33] <Jymmm> SVG
[22:13:44] <alex_joni> * alex_joni noticed an order of trouts on Jymmm's latest cc excerpt
[22:14:01] <aa-danimal-shop> order of trouts?
[22:14:13] <aa-danimal-shop> ha
[22:14:24] <alex_joni> ever been slapped with a wet trout?
[22:14:46] <aa-danimal-shop> * aa-danimal-shop slaps alex_joni around a bit with a large trout
[22:15:10] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is immune
[22:15:43] <aa-danimal-shop> ha
[22:16:40] <aa-danimal-shop> msc has a 40% off metalworking sale today, but i'm not sure if i want to spend the $100 to get the discount
[22:18:31] <aa-danimal-shop> i need a coolant tank for my bandsaw, but that's not neccesarily a neccesity
[22:18:34] <Jymmm> http://codepad.org/g92WAFyD Save as drawing.svg
[22:18:54] <aa-danimal-shop> anyone have ideas for a cheap coolant tank?
[22:19:01] <aa-danimal-shop> i have a little giant pump i can use
[22:19:25] <aa-danimal-shop> the tank needs some sort of screen
[22:19:35] <aa-danimal-shop> to keep chips from going in
[22:20:14] <aa-danimal-shop> thought about just using a heavy duty rubbermaid container
[22:21:49] <skunkworks_> a parts cleaner would be nice...
[22:22:35] <aa-danimal-shop> oh yea good idea
[22:27:34] <aa-danimal-shop> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=96952
[22:41:59] <cradek> Jymmm: http://itc.ktu.lt/itc354/Riskus354.pdf
[23:18:54] <LawrenceG> Jymmm, ping....
[23:27:41] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: pong
[23:34:33] <LawrenceG> hey...