#emc | Logs for 2010-02-11

[00:03:32] <danimal_garage> some jerkoff won one of my ebay auctions and filed a dispute because it didnt get to GERMANY within 7 business days. He never even contacted me to see if it shipped.
[00:04:29] <danimal_garage> In my listing, i put that it ships within 5 busniness days, since they are all made to order
[00:04:47] <danimal_garage> i hate people
[00:09:54] <WalterN> danimal_garage: what was the listing?
[00:10:05] <danimal_garage> bike parts
[00:10:33] <Valen> did he at least pay for next day air shipping?
[00:10:37] <danimal_garage> no
[00:11:16] <danimal_garage> he didnt read the shipping details, nor did he try to contact me. he just filed a dispute
[00:11:32] <Valen> should be pretty smooth from your side though
[00:11:45] <danimal_garage> i think i'm going to have it sent back to me and issue him a refund
[00:11:53] <danimal_garage> tell him to pound sand
[00:11:54] <Valen> is there a "buyer didn't read listing" check box?
[00:11:59] <danimal_garage> ha
[00:12:18] <WalterN> danimal_garage: you have a link for the auction?
[00:12:34] <danimal_garage> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180409984127
[00:12:57] <danimal_garage> it also says the buyer must pay imediately when using paypal, and he didnt pay for 3 days
[00:13:06] <Valen> http://www.fit-pc.com/web/fit-pc2/fit-pc2i-specifications/
[00:14:22] <danimal_garage> how much is that?
[00:14:29] <Valen> I wouldn't have thought an aluminium sprocket would hold up to a chain
[00:14:48] <Valen> nfi, just saw it posted somewhere else thought, ey cool
[00:14:51] <danimal_garage> every bike comes with one for the most part
[00:15:22] <Valen> heh its been a while since I've had one, mine were definatly stamped steel lol
[00:15:29] <Valen> the rust was a dead giveaway
[00:15:32] <danimal_garage> lol
[00:15:49] <WalterN> heh
[00:16:02] <danimal_garage> i think i'm just gunna refund his money, depending on what he says
[00:16:50] <Valen> I hate all the A++++++++++ people
[00:17:17] <WalterN> thats funny, everything about that listing screams produced on demand
[00:17:44] <danimal_garage> yea
[00:17:52] <Valen> looks like those little PC's are ~$350-500
[00:18:00] <danimal_garage> Valen: ouch!
[00:18:08] <Valen> you pay for the tiny it seems
[00:18:24] <danimal_garage> just like women
[00:18:29] <Valen> http://www.fit-pc.com/web/purchase/order-direct/
[00:18:34] <Valen> rofl
[00:18:35] <danimal_garage> the large ones you can get for free :)
[00:19:16] <Valen> oh dude you better hope no female ever hears you say that
[00:19:21] <danimal_garage> haha
[00:19:34] <Casainho> hello
[00:19:39] <Casainho> :-)
[00:19:41] <danimal_garage> hi
[00:19:58] <danimal_garage> Valen: luckly there isnt many on this channel
[00:20:08] <WalterN> ugh, I need to do something useful
[00:20:11] <Valen> mores a pitty
[00:20:34] <Casainho> can someone help me, I need guide to do Z probing on my CNC, for PCB milling. This user already did that but I can't understand how it works: http://phk.freebsd.dk/CncPcb/
[00:27:50] <tom3p> the picture shows the pcb insulated and a wire clipped to it. there likely is a small voltage potential applied between the tool and the pcb. when this poterntial dissapears ( when the tool touches the work), a signal is recognized by hal, and the position is stored. either an offset is created or the axis is
[00:27:56] <tom3p> zeroed
[00:28:08] <WalterN> oh neat
[00:28:47] <WalterN> though, I would rather just have a nice flat surface for it to clamp to :)
[00:29:08] <tom3p> you can insulate the tool instead ( a probing tool )
[00:29:56] <tom3p> there just has to be a change in potential when they touch
[00:30:10] <Casainho> and I would I chan ge the gcode, after having position stored?
[00:30:46] <Casainho> does anyone knows of another project like that? I need to read more about this to be able to replicate
[00:30:48] <tom3p> its up to you, use offsets or zero the axis, there's info on the wiki, lots to read
[00:33:34] <Casainho> tom3p: looks to me that he makes a grid of 4x4 points...
[00:33:41] <tom3p> he makes a good point of checking that it works before sending the tool into the workpiece. mine triggered a beeper when it touched, so the test was simply to short the gap with the 6" scale always in my shirt pocket.
[00:34:43] <Casainho> tom3p: can you point me to wiki page about something I can read about this? that would me help on this task?
[00:36:22] <tom3p> if hes trying to find the plane, its overconstrained with 4 points, 3 is exactly enough, you may want to do it more than once to insure repeatability. Also, if the ponts are not the same, your best solution is mechanical, there is not plane tilt in emc2
[00:36:52] <tom3p> you cannot make the Zaxis normal to an arbitrary plane
[00:37:52] <tom3p> you >could< shim the work until the probe told you the plane was normal to the Z travel, but thats nuts, just tram the head
[00:38:48] <Casainho> tom3p: looks to me that he works the gcode for adapt to surface...
[00:40:47] <Casainho> I think there is some functionality on EMC2/gcode to first read a grid of data from PCB surface, later the Z0 is adjusted with math...
[00:42:23] <tom3p> what if this bent plane has a bulge inbetween the measured points? (very likley since it wasnt flat ). its no good, use flat stuff on flat surfaces or live with bent stuff.
[00:43:51] <Casainho> well, on that case there is the need to make the grid bigger!
[00:44:11] <tom3p> more room for more bulges! yeh!
[00:44:17] <Casainho> the question is that copper on PCB is not flat!
[00:44:34] <Casainho> the tolerances on copper are higher :-(
[00:44:48] <Casainho> I need to mill with a 0.2mm bit
[00:45:06] <Casainho> and have tracks of no more than 0.25mm
[00:47:03] <tom3p> how flat is your pcb? maybe you can probe a Z map of the surface with distances between probe positions < allowable error. force Z offset according to the map and present position in xy ( and have a lot of fun writing this )
[00:47:51] <Jymmm> tom3p++
[00:47:57] <tom3p> or use the THC idea ( a floating head for a torch follows th ewarped surface, like a sewing machine foot)
[00:48:30] <tom3p> Jymmm are height maps already available?
[00:48:44] <Jymmm> tom3p: I've NEVER sewn/seen warped fabric =)
[00:48:50] <tom3p> :)
[00:49:19] <Jymmm> tom3p: No clue, I was just giving you karma for the 'have fun' comment.
[00:50:00] <tom3p> Casainho crap he left, i was going to try to encourage the idea, he;s done some other good stuff
[00:52:14] <danimal_garage> sweet my chuck backing plate i'm making fits the spindle good
[00:52:27] <danimal_garage> stupid hardinge taper
[00:59:06] <aystarik> this is bilinear interpolation.
[01:00:33] <aystarik> i mean the strange formula in pcb milling...
[01:15:38] <mozmck> anyone use heekscad/cam successfully yet? it crashes on me before I can do much of anything...
[01:25:47] <tom3p> mozmck: join #cam, theres people who use it well ( i have but not right now, coding atm)
[01:26:18] <mozmck> just thought of that, thanks.
[01:26:30] <tom3p> have faith it do work
[01:28:11] <mozmck> :) I can always run sheetcam on windows if I have to. I can't get it to even start on ubuntu karmic.
[01:33:06] <cradek> any information in the crash? have a backtrace?
[01:33:24] <cradek> (it's surely not a matter of faith...)
[01:33:39] <cradek> also - sheetcam works on linux, from what I've heard
[01:34:32] <ds3> that might be the "beta" version
[01:37:10] <danimal_garage> yawn
[01:45:14] <danimal_garage> i'm tired
[02:12:48] <danimal_garage> cradek: everything show up in one piece?
[02:15:07] <mozmck> SWPLinux: ping
[02:15:23] <SWPLinux> hi
[02:15:46] <danimal_garage> hey
[02:15:55] <danimal_garage> how's dallas
[02:16:04] <SWPLinux> cool, cloudy
[02:16:12] <SWPLinux> and I have to start work at midnight ...
[02:16:32] <mozmck> ouch! will you have extra time this weekend?
[02:16:34] <danimal_garage> youch
[02:16:39] <SWPLinux> har har
[02:16:58] <danimal_garage> jet lag + working late = sucky
[02:17:01] <SWPLinux> no, I think we'll be working for 5-6 hours, then we get to come back at noon or so so we can do the tech rehearsal
[02:17:13] <SWPLinux> I don't really have jet lag, but it's still a pain
[02:17:15] <mozmck> oh, you'll need extra time?
[02:17:57] <SWPLinux> it'll take several hours to get things aligned, since we have to do it with some sort of rig (we have yet to devise)
[02:18:04] <mozmck> I don't have any laying around that I can find.
[02:18:13] <mozmck> (time that is)
[02:18:15] <SWPLinux> we can't look through the cameras directly, since they'll be 36 or 70 feet in the air
[02:18:28] <SWPLinux> yeah, it's awfully hard to find extra bits around
[02:19:38] <mozmck> wow. can you see what the camera is looking at on a screen?
[02:19:47] <SWPLinux> eventually
[02:20:16] <mozmck> but not while you align it?
[02:20:38] <Valen> SWPLinux wth are you doing with cameras and rehersals?
[02:21:00] <SWPLinux> we have to do a software update on a trigger board (that sits underneath a mini ITX motherboard, in a case with 8 screws) in 12 computers, then re-mount the 48 cameras on the geared heads differently so they can aim downward, then run the trigger and network cabling
[02:21:04] <mozmck> a wedding ;)
[02:21:20] <SWPLinux> (120 feet up, then over in the catwalks, then down to the press box where we'll be set up with the computers)
[02:21:26] <SWPLinux> *then* we'll be able to see images
[02:21:42] <Valen> dear god it sounds more like planning an assault on some uber security system
[02:21:42] <SWPLinux> Valen: the NBA Slam Dunk competition on Saturday
[02:21:44] <mozmck> wow, sounds like an interesting job anyhow.
[02:21:49] <SWPLinux> yeah, should be
[02:21:54] <Valen> your not breaking into fort knox or anything right?
[02:21:57] <SWPLinux> I wonder if I have enough cable
[02:23:07] <mozmck> Ever been to Tanners electronics?
[02:23:15] <SWPLinux> nope
[02:23:47] <mozmck> They have all kinds of surplus and new stuff, over off 635 and 35E.
[02:24:00] <SWPLinux> interesting
[02:24:19] <SWPLinux> I wonder how much of it I could take back as checked baggage :)
[02:24:38] <Valen> nah take it on the plane
[02:24:50] <Valen> the security screeners are all reasonable people
[02:24:58] <mozmck> if you were to need some components they might have them. I got 300ft cat5e for about $24 there.
[02:25:02] <SWPLinux> I probably won't feel like carrying much on Sunday morning
[02:25:05] <Valen> bundles of wire and PCB's have no concern for them
[02:25:25] <mozmck> heh, you'd never make it home!
[02:25:30] <SWPLinux> oh, I think I have enough cat6 cable - I got 4x150' patch cables
[02:25:45] <Valen> oh wait no they thought this was a bomb http://www.geekologie.com/2007/07/diy_ipod_charger_mistaken_for.php
[02:26:02] <SWPLinux> it's the trigger stuff that I'm more concerned about - that's a sort of special shielded 3-pair cable
[02:26:26] <mozmck> http://www.tannerelectronics.com/ you might give them a call if you can't find something.
[02:26:52] <Valen> whats the trigger cable do?
[02:27:35] <SWPLinux> lets us trigger the cameras from the press box
[02:30:29] <mozmck> well SWPLinux, if you get some time give me a holler...
[02:30:45] <SWPLinux> will do. it's most likely to be on Friday, if at all
[02:31:25] <Valen> thought they would have just let them reccord all the time. or are they still cameras?
[02:31:27] <mozmck> sounds good. we'll feed you something if you get up here.
[02:31:39] <SWPLinux> stills
[02:31:41] <SWPLinux> cool
[02:31:57] <ds3> hmmmmm
[02:32:23] <ds3> are these those action capture cameras for the "matrix like" effects?
[02:38:15] <danimal_garage> they should do that with porn
[02:41:56] <SWPLinux> ds3: yeah, it's like the Matrix, except it goes out for broadcast in under a minute from the time the images are captured
[02:42:06] <SWPLinux> danimal_garage: it's crossed my mind :)
[02:42:14] <Valen> http://www.boingboing.net/2010/02/09/angry-norwegians-in.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+boingboing/iBag+(Boing+Boing
[02:42:41] <Valen> matrix stuff now uses video cameras I believe
[02:43:13] <danimal_garage> do it! (not as a performer please!)
[02:43:30] <Valen> unless your a hot chick in real life
[02:43:39] <Valen> that could be a thing
[02:43:45] <SWPLinux> no, and I don't play one on TV either
[02:43:45] <Valen> voxel based porn
[02:44:04] <Valen> actual proper 3d move the camera anywhere porn
[02:44:04] <danimal_garage> only on tuesdays
[02:50:18] <danimal_garage> you guys are gross, grow up! :)
[02:56:13] <Valen> your just jelous of our mad pr0n skillz
[03:03:30] <danimal_garage> pr0n watching skillz*
[03:08:16] <danimal_garage> there, FINALLY finished making my chuck backing plate
[03:08:50] <danimal_garage> could have bought one cheaper than i made this one for, considering how long it took me
[03:09:12] <danimal_garage> but this one is probably made of better material
[03:09:35] <danimal_garage> and i turned it on the spindle, so it's pretty much dead nuts concentric
[03:10:20] <ds3> what did you make it from?
[03:11:13] <danimal_garage> some sort of pre heat treated alloy
[03:11:22] <danimal_garage> i think 4140 or somethnig similar
[03:12:02] <ds3> what did you use to hold if this is intended to mount the chuck itself?
[03:12:52] <danimal_garage> i put the chuck in the step chuck to turn the first side, and then i mounted it on the spindle to turn the second side
[03:18:30] <danimal_garage> holy crap, the machine isnt rigidly secured to the base
[03:19:08] <danimal_garage> they have springs between the bolt heads and base, so it isnt really bolted down solid
[03:19:27] <danimal_garage> freaky
[03:27:23] <cradek> danimal_garage: I got the stuff you sent - thanks!
[03:31:13] <danimal_garage> great! was it all in one piece?
[03:31:26] <danimal_garage> how'd you like those resistors?
[03:33:02] <danimal_garage> might be a bit big, but they stay nice and cool
[03:38:48] <cradek> yep they're sure big
[03:39:02] <cradek> they each lost a little ceramic but they're fine
[03:45:02] <danimal_garage> really??
[03:45:11] <danimal_garage> crap, where?
[03:45:36] <danimal_garage> i thought that foam and the heavy duty cardboard would protect them
[03:45:37] <cradek> oh it just got knocked off some of the coils
[03:45:56] <cradek> I think it's just normal wear and tear :-)
[03:46:18] <cradek> I don't think it hurts anything
[03:46:28] <danimal_garage> they werent perfect cosmetically, but i didnt see anything performance hindering
[03:47:15] <danimal_garage> check it out: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v20/danielwilcox/hardinge/DSCN0783.jpg
[03:47:19] <tom3p> someone talked earlier of the trouble with PCB's not being flat enough to cut well. maybe this will help. Scott put some thought into how to get the thing to lay flat http://cscott.net/Projects/FabClass/tools/Modela/
[03:47:35] <danimal_garage> finally finished the chuck backing plate for the hardinge
[03:47:43] <cradek> cool
[03:48:02] <danimal_garage> 6 inch chuck
[03:48:34] <danimal_garage> no more leaky collet closer... i shut the air off to it
[03:48:49] <cradek> yep they're pretty bad
[03:48:54] <cradek> when open especially - woo
[03:49:06] <danimal_garage> yea, horrible
[03:49:35] <danimal_garage> i use fixtures mostly, so i dont need a collet closer 99% of the time
[03:49:39] <cradek> I noticed some very bad news about the hnc - if it's rapiding when my compressor starts, it ferrors
[03:49:50] <cradek> that means the rest of the time, it probably loses position a bit
[03:50:05] <danimal_garage> ouch
[03:50:11] <cradek> yeah, not good at all
[03:50:14] <danimal_garage> same circuit?
[03:50:20] <cradek> no of course not :-)
[03:50:30] <cradek> same house though unfortunately
[03:50:35] <danimal_garage> electic noise causing it?
[03:50:53] <danimal_garage> or just the dip in power?
[03:50:56] <cradek> really not sure - I haven't done any troubleshooting yet
[03:51:06] <danimal_garage> bummer
[03:51:06] <cradek> the power sure dips. I can see it in the lights.
[03:51:30] <danimal_garage> i noticed that my manual lathe looses a bit of power when the compressor kicls on
[03:51:34] <danimal_garage> kicks*
[03:52:32] <danimal_garage> do you think some caps would help smooth out the electricity?
[03:52:48] <Valen> they dont work for AC
[03:53:02] <Valen> you could put them into a VFD though perhaps
[03:53:03] <danimal_garage> how about a vfd before the power supply?
[03:53:06] <Valen> they have a DC stage
[03:53:21] <Valen> they would need to be pretty smegging large though
[03:53:39] <danimal_garage> he can do it before the power supply, so it'll be ac
[03:54:10] <danimal_garage> power supply is single phase, but it should still work i would think
[03:54:37] <Valen> cradek: what power supply are you using?
[03:54:42] <Valen> and whats its outputs?
[03:54:56] <Valen> sorry danimal I thought we woz talking about your stuff
[03:54:56] <cradek> depends what's failing - it might be the servo supply or it might be the resolver (pc) supply
[03:54:59] <danimal_garage> it's a 90v dc output
[03:55:11] <danimal_garage> ahh good point
[03:55:21] <Valen> PC supply should be fine
[03:55:31] <cradek> halscope will tell me which it is
[03:55:39] <Valen> 90vDC is pretty close to the line voltage, you don't have much margin there
[03:55:40] <cradek> yeah it's probably the servo dc bus dipping bad
[03:55:53] <cradek> well it's a transformer
[03:56:23] <Valen> yeah that'll get hosed
[03:56:32] <Valen> if mains dips it'll dip
[03:56:54] <Valen> 90V, what kind of amps?
[03:57:00] <danimal_garage> wish i knew
[03:57:01] <Valen> as in amperage not amplifier
[03:57:21] <Valen> you can measure it you know
[03:57:24] <cradek> I'm not sure either
[03:57:48] <cradek> O RLY?
[03:57:53] <danimal_garage> i dont have a meter to measure it
[03:58:04] <Valen> yeah, if its less than 10A a normal meter will give you an idea
[03:58:12] <Valen> and 10A at 90V is a lot of power
[03:58:18] <cradek> well I do, but I just noticed this and like I said, haven't done any troubleshooting yet
[03:58:27] <Valen> otherwise if you want to protect your meter get a precision current shunt
[03:59:18] <cradek> if it's the dc bus dropping, at least it doesn't lose position unless it faults
[03:59:36] <Valen> on ours it keeps position even if it ferrors
[03:59:40] <cradek> and I bet it's only a problem during a rapid when there's not much margin
[03:59:42] <danimal_garage> true... servos are nice
[03:59:49] <Valen> you can push the table around and it keeps track
[03:59:54] <cradek> sure, mine always keeps position too
[04:00:34] <cradek> oops that was unclear - I meant that if it keeps running, all is fine
[04:00:52] <Valen> yeah I've done that before
[04:00:56] <cradek> I was worried about tiny unnoticed position loss, but I really doubt that's happening since the resolvers run on the PC supply
[04:00:57] <danimal_garage> yours doesnt keep track of position after ferror?
[04:01:13] <cradek> yes it does
[04:01:18] <danimal_garage> oh ok
[04:01:34] <Valen> our Z drive is a bit crap, so part way through a program I've reduced the max speed to nerf the rapids from killing Z
[04:02:22] <danimal_garage> every axis on my mill is a bit crap :)
[04:02:37] <danimal_garage> cant wait to find some servos
[04:02:59] <danimal_garage> it seems to hold position ok now, but 110ipm is a bit slow
[04:03:17] <cradek> that's a very fast cut...
[04:03:19] <danimal_garage> especially with 37 inches of x travel
[04:03:34] <danimal_garage> fast cut, but a slow rapid
[04:04:44] <danimal_garage> 20 seconds to get across the table
[04:05:11] <cradek> hmm, that is a lot of waiting I bet
[04:05:43] <danimal_garage> it's not too bad, but it adds up for tool changes
[04:06:30] <danimal_garage> i wish you could have a window for tool change positions so it'll change tools anywhere between x12 and x24 or somethnig like that
[04:06:32] <cradek> mine is supposed to rapid at 900 - I have it set in the ini at 450, and I often turn it down to about 200 if I'm doing something the first few times
[04:06:52] <danimal_garage> 900 is insane
[04:07:24] <cradek> I had it at 900 for about a half hour then turned it down :-)
[04:07:43] <danimal_garage> hmmm i tihnk i can do that in ladder (the tool change position window thing)
[04:07:46] <cradek> tool change "up" isn't enough for yours is it
[04:08:03] <danimal_garage> nope, i gotta clear the door and the arm
[04:08:12] <cradek> you can use g30.1 to set tool change location somewhere close to the work but safe
[04:08:24] <cradek> just use quill_up + at_g30
[04:08:59] <danimal_garage> you mean when it works again? lol
[04:09:05] <cradek> yeah then
[04:09:09] <cradek> 2.3.5
[04:09:22] <cradek> (you could always build v2_3_branch from source)
[04:09:29] <danimal_garage> when's the release?
[04:09:37] <cradek> * cradek mumbles
[04:09:49] <cradek> (it's up to jepler)
[04:09:57] <danimal_garage> ha, me build something from source?
[04:10:06] <danimal_garage> i'm lucky i can send emails
[04:10:32] <cradek> haha
[04:11:44] <danimal_garage> i think i can do what i want in ladder
[04:11:54] <danimal_garage> want*
[04:12:40] <danimal_garage> might not be easy though
[04:13:14] <danimal_garage> actually might not be too bad
[04:13:18] <cradek> sounds terrible to me
[04:13:22] <danimal_garage> haha
[04:13:37] <cradek> doing any axis motion from hal is extremely hard
[04:14:21] <danimal_garage> well i can at least put a saftey in there so it doesnt change tools if the position is greater or less than a certain amount
[04:14:31] <danimal_garage> so at least it wont crash
[04:14:36] <cradek> that is true
[04:14:57] <danimal_garage> then i can just put the tool change position in the program manually
[04:15:06] <cradek> I have some safety stuff in my tool change too. for instance it won't start the tool change if the home switch doesn't say Z is up
[04:15:13] <danimal_garage> and if i forget, no biggie, it just wont change tools
[04:15:18] <cradek> (or if the spindle is locked)
[04:15:46] <danimal_garage> good idea
[04:15:49] <cradek> yep just sitting there forever in these cases is a perfectly fine response
[04:15:56] <danimal_garage> yea
[04:17:03] <danimal_garage> can you write to the var file on the fly while running a program?
[04:17:32] <cradek> a program can change variables anytime with #1234=5678
[04:17:38] <danimal_garage> for instance, if you had a toolchange at g30, can you change the parameters for g30 while a program is running?
[04:17:46] <cradek> nope
[04:18:10] <danimal_garage> hmm there goes that idea
[04:19:06] <Valen> 230 for a rapid is plenty fast enough for me
[04:19:29] <danimal_garage> yea, 200 is great for the lathe, but that's quite a bit smaller
[04:19:33] <cradek> goodnight guys
[04:19:44] <danimal_garage> when you have some real estate to move across, it takes a bit longer
[04:19:54] <danimal_garage> nite!
[04:20:07] <Valen> cya
[04:20:27] <danimal_garage> suppose i'm off to eat
[04:20:30] <danimal_garage> adios
[04:20:30] <WalterN> I think 300IPM was the max on the omni-turn lathe I had at work
[05:33:50] <Valen1> Valen1 is now known as Valen
[05:46:09] <frysteev> woo
[05:46:23] <frysteev> Jymmm: limit switches on the x and z installed
[05:46:47] <Jymmm> frysteev: Cool beans
[05:47:07] <frysteev> its not super sexy but they are in
[05:47:07] <Jymmm> What happened to Y?
[05:47:17] <frysteev> havent had a chance yet today
[05:47:36] <Jymmm> today?! should have been done last week!!!
[05:48:04] <Jymmm> last year even!
[06:13:21] <ries_> ries_ is now known as ries
[10:28:40] <piasdom> g'mornin all
[10:33:40] <pjm> good morning
[11:46:17] <jthornton> http://www.linuxcnc.org/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,20/func,view/catid,21/id,1818/lang,english/
[12:47:06] <ries> I love these easy to remember URL's from Joomla :D
[14:05:51] <smokerss> Hi, trying to make a decision on my controller setup (for a step/dir driven servo system), and have a question about the parallel port speeds compared to an fpga board connected to the parallel port
[14:07:04] <smokerss> I am wondering why the mesa is faster, as theysteps need to be send over the same parallel prt.Is it because in a parallel port/mesa setup EMC is not actually transmitting steps over the parallel port, but "special" commands? (say 1000 steps for example)
[14:11:03] <cradek> yes
[14:11:20] <cradek> emc tells the mesa card every millisecond what RATE of step pulses to make
[14:11:40] <cradek> the PC does not have to be involved with making each step pulse
[14:12:12] <cradek> but -- if you have not already bought parts of a step/dir servo system, don't - this is not a closed loop system. you can do much better with emc.
[14:15:14] <cradek> bbl
[14:19:16] <smokerss> thx
[14:19:40] <smokerss> i just wanted to use the step/dir because of the simplicity
[14:19:50] <smokerss> indeed it is not full closed loop
[14:20:01] <smokerss> but the drive has some encoder feedback
[14:36:31] <skunkworks_> with all the cats we have - it is a strand of the wifes hair that stopped the video card fan. ;)
[14:39:01] <mozmck> heh, we have plenty of those around here!
[14:39:39] <mozmck> if I wove them together I could make a cord that would lift our house!
[14:40:05] <skunkworks_> ;)
[14:49:32] <cradek> step/dir servos are not simpler than velocity or torque servos. you still need encoders, but the pc doesn't get to use them to track position. you still have to tune the servo response, but you can't use halscope for it. there are no benefits that I can see, and there are several very important drawbacks
[14:53:50] <smokerss> can you mention the most important drawbacks?
[14:54:04] <smokerss> BTW I have not bought any equipment yet
[14:54:07] <cradek> you don't have index homing
[14:54:13] <smokerss> so i can still change my mind
[14:54:17] <cradek> you don't have configurable following error fault
[14:54:25] <cradek> if you get a following error you lose your position
[14:54:47] <cradek> if you disable the amps you lose your position
[14:54:55] <cradek> if you estop you lose your position
[14:55:21] <cradek> you can't see the behavior of the servo loop using emc's diagnostic tools
[14:56:14] <cradek> I think those are the big ones
[14:57:07] <smokerss> so in step/dir servo setups you cannot feedback the encoder info to emc?
[14:57:23] <skunkworks_> what is it called time quantization mumble mumble - you are moving in descreate steps instead of a smooth movement.
[14:58:21] <cradek> smokerss: yes I think it's possible you can feed the encoder to both places
[14:59:11] <smokerss> but this does not solve some of the drawbacks you mentioned?
[14:59:47] <cradek> yes it probably does - I have not thought them all through
[15:00:05] <cradek> pretty sure you cannot have index homing that way
[15:00:35] <cradek> but that may keep you from losing position in the error cases
[15:00:48] <skunkworks_> but if your going down that road - why not just go velocity or torque servo loop then?
[15:01:52] <cradek> skunkworks is right that velocity mode amps will move smoothly even at very slow speeds where position-based systems like steppers and step-servos will move in discrete steps
[15:02:19] <cradek> usually this doesn't matter but if (say) you are turning slight tapers on a lathe, it sure does
[15:03:19] <cradek> (direct torque servo loop will have the position steps too I think)
[15:03:33] <skunkworks_> I could see that..
[15:03:35] <cradek> what kind of machine is this?
[15:06:14] <skunkworks_> but you can use pretty high encoder resolution to help that. which may or may not be possible with step-servos.
[15:06:24] <cradek> true
[15:07:27] <cradek> high resolution encoders to step-servo may limit your top speed and/or your ferror limit choices
[15:07:50] <skunkworks_> also - think of it this way. We are not selling anything. :)
[15:07:57] <cradek> heh
[15:08:25] <cradek> also true :-)
[15:09:02] <cradek> I've seen emc on some large machines and the thing those installations have in common is they're velocity mode servo systems with encoder feedback to the pc
[15:09:20] <cradek> there are no tradeoffs with that setup IMO.
[15:10:27] <cradek> step/dir is fine for hobby size/quality machines, I have one of those too (steppers)
[15:12:55] <cradek> guess we wore him down
[15:12:55] <skunkworks_> crap - well - we scared him away. ;)
[15:13:35] <cradek> I can't imagine a machine you do real work on, without index homing -- yuck.
[15:14:32] <cradek> how's your big retrofit coming?
[15:15:03] <cradek> it's nice that your random toolchanger will work now - maybe emc is finally ready for it
[15:16:39] <skunkworks_> Heh - I cannot wait.
[15:17:02] <skunkworks_> going well - Dad has a bunch of timing pullys coming. We hope to start figuring out how to mount servos.
[15:17:13] <skunkworks_> I have to make one more adaptor shart for y axis.
[15:17:50] <skunkworks_> It is going to be tight to get all the servos for x,z and b in the same location. but I think it is doable.
[15:18:08] <cradek> yeah looks like there will be a lot of stuff there.
[15:18:15] <cradek> it's a fairly large area, though
[15:18:53] <cradek> is the carousel jerky geneva-mechanism motion or is it a servo or something?
[15:19:39] <skunkworks_> smooth - it is run by a hydraulic motor. (you mean the tool chain?)
[15:19:46] <cradek> yeah
[15:20:01] <cradek> will you make that electric too?
[15:20:32] <skunkworks_> not at the moment. we will still need some hydraulics for counter -balance and tool/table operations.
[15:20:40] <cradek> ah
[15:20:41] <skunkworks_> pallet changers also
[15:21:27] <skunkworks_> so for something as dumb as that - hydraulics will work just fine. It only has to possition the tool within about 1/2 an inch.. then a lock pulls in to center it.
[15:23:40] <skunkworks_> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/toolchangerspindle.JPG
[15:23:57] <skunkworks_> it did work before hand... :)
[15:26:00] <skunkworks_> it should be fun ladder logic. (I am very rusty with that - very rusty)
[15:27:54] <skunkworks_> is the jr all ball-bearing ways?
[15:30:20] <cradek> yes
[15:30:39] <skunkworks_> cool - isn't it? There seems to be no stiction at all.
[15:31:02] <skunkworks_> sticktion?
[15:31:11] <cradek> yeah very neat. when I had the Y ballscrew unhooked the table kept creeping away because it wasn't perfectly level
[15:31:25] <skunkworks_> heh - yep
[15:31:52] <skunkworks_> when dad transported these things - he had to chain all the axis's from moving/
[15:31:54] <skunkworks_> moving.
[15:32:21] <cradek> I hear they are a weak point for heavy cuts, but I'll take the precision and freedom from wear over that stoutness
[15:32:47] <cradek> yeah we bolted this one all together before moving it too
[15:33:16] <tarzan__1> skunkworks_, why so many? few may do it
[15:33:22] <cradek> the head falls a few inches on it sometimes after I shut it off - I hope it doesn't get worse. stuart's falls all the way.
[15:33:43] <skunkworks_> yes - I don't know how these are for toughness. it isn't linear rails in the conventional sense. The ways are square and there are recirculating kneedle bearing packs all round.
[15:34:13] <skunkworks_> hard to explain.
[15:34:19] <cradek> oh your K&T has recirculating bearings?? wow.
[15:34:23] <skunkworks_> yes
[15:34:59] <skunkworks_> y axis - without the brake installed would definatly fall. and fast.
[15:35:13] <cradek> I bet
[15:38:31] <skunkworks_> they didn't spare any expence I guess. :)
[15:39:02] <cradek> old machines like that are nice - someone else paid the expense - and now we have them
[15:39:04] <skunkworks_> can't wait to see this thing with decent servos and emc2
[15:39:13] <skunkworks_> exactly
[15:39:53] <skunkworks_> we are going to shoot for 200ipm max. just because we know it was designed for that...
[15:40:18] <cradek> what's the longest travel?
[15:40:27] <skunkworks_> 38"
[15:40:49] <skunkworks_> 38"x36"x24"
[15:40:57] <skunkworks_> (xyz)
[15:41:06] <cradek> so you'll never spend more than 5-10 sec on a rapid at that speed
[15:42:10] <skunkworks_> yes. and we never actually ran it that fast with the old contoller.. Mainly z sounded bad - probably because of the slack in the gear train
[15:42:37] <cradek> yeah on heavy machines everything has to be perfect to 'sound right' when moving fast
[15:42:41] <skunkworks_> (which we think we took care of)
[15:46:13] <skunkworks_> it is exciting - for me anyways. I miss not having access to a nice big cnc mill. spoiled.
[15:47:25] <skunkworks_> and being able to probe now and blending and and... making circles bigger than 9.9999R ;)
[15:57:50] <skunkworks_> and not having 15hp of hydraulics. ;)
[15:58:31] <cradek> haha 9.9999 inches?
[16:01:16] <skunkworks_> same with linear interp.. you could only move g1 x9.9999 y9.9999
[16:01:34] <cradek> * cradek shivers
[16:01:36] <skunkworks_> oh - and full 3 axis movements
[17:06:35] <Danimal-office> cant wait to see that thing move
[17:06:51] <Danimal-office> i wish i had room for those kind of machines
[17:07:04] <Danimal-office> i'd have a pretty full machine shop if i had room
[17:07:34] <Danimal-office> and more money
[17:07:45] <Danimal-office> and more time
[17:07:59] <skunkworks_> heh
[17:08:01] <Danimal-office> and breakfast
[17:08:06] <skunkworks_> coffee?
[17:08:14] <Danimal-office> never had a cup in my life
[17:08:15] <cradek> skunkworks_: do you think you'll have it moving before workshop in ann arbor? it would be tempting to fish for an invitation to see your shop.
[17:08:35] <skunkworks_> Boy - I would hope so.. when is it again?
[17:08:40] <Danimal-office> june
[17:08:59] <skunkworks_> we have been moving pretty well - and dad retires in march.
[17:09:29] <Danimal-office> if not, cradek can have it running in 11.25 hours for you :)
[17:09:41] <cradek> I bet a visit would help us get locking-rotary merged...
[17:09:48] <skunkworks_> heh - I still would have loved to see that.
[17:10:01] <skunkworks_> ooh.. I like the sound of that.
[17:10:11] <skunkworks_> * skunkworks_ has to order some opto22 pannels
[17:10:12] <cradek> Danimal-office: only if seb_kuzminsky is running the wires - I just read the schematics and gave dumb advice :-)
[17:10:27] <Danimal-office> ha
[17:10:28] <Jymmm> skunkworks_: What, the beast of yours?
[17:10:36] <skunkworks_> yes
[17:10:52] <skunkworks_> finally actually working consistantly on it. ;)
[17:10:52] <Danimal-office> dumb advice? you mean i've built my machines off of dumb advice?? lol
[17:11:00] <Jymmm> skunkworks_: Just make sure you load it with 1/8" tooling =)
[17:11:07] <Jymmm> skunkworks_: Just make sure you load it with 1/8" shank tooling =)
[17:11:34] <skunkworks_> already done.. http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/toolchangerspindle.JPG
[17:11:37] <skunkworks_> ;)
[17:12:23] <Jymmm> skunkworks_: It would be funny to see that monster doing 1/8" tooling on a PCB
[17:12:44] <Danimal-office> ha
[17:13:29] <Danimal-office> it's really cool watching huge machines doing intricate work
[17:13:48] <cradek> I cut a pcb on jr... 1/8" ER40 collets
[17:14:34] <Danimal-office> when machining circuit boards, do you guys machine away all the copper?
[17:15:19] <Danimal-office> except for what you need, obviously
[17:15:24] <cradek> sometimes - sometimes not
[17:15:37] <Danimal-office> i always thought they etched it
[17:15:55] <Danimal-office> with chemicals
[17:16:31] <cradek> I hate home etching
[17:16:34] <skunkworks_> that is just messy
[17:16:36] <cradek> milling works great
[17:16:52] <Danimal-office> cool
[17:17:02] <Jymmm> Danimal-office: http://www.timeguy.com/cradek-files/cnc/pcb/dscn6119.jpg
[17:17:12] <skunkworks_> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/servostart/DSC_5094.JPG
[17:17:28] <skunkworks_> pay no attention to the gouge out of the upper right corner.
[17:17:38] <skunkworks_> (vacuum failure)
[17:17:55] <Danimal-office> Jymmm: cool! cradek: you should be a hand model
[17:18:27] <Danimal-office> skunkworks_: nice!
[17:18:28] <Jymmm> skunkworks_: or the trace on the left side
[17:18:28] <cradek> 08:0012:0013:0016:00
[17:18:41] <Jymmm> lol @ cradek
[17:18:41] <cradek> oops
[17:19:11] <cradek> http://timeguy.com/cradek-files/cnc/pcb/stepdriver2.jpg
[17:19:17] <cradek> another one I managed to photograph
[17:19:29] <Jymmm> cradek: Are those the times you're hand modeling?
[17:19:46] <skunkworks_> Jymmm: yah - forgot about that. (didn't know I needed to offset the boarder)
[17:20:05] <cradek> Jymmm: I stand on painted tape
[17:20:07] <Jymmm> skunkworks_: Offset?
[17:20:13] <Jymmm> cradek: heh
[17:20:55] <Danimal-office> fancy
[17:21:40] <Jymmm> cradek: Just asking, some of those pads have been drilled awefully close to the edge. Is that common or just human error?
[17:22:04] <cradek> which?
[17:22:16] <Jymmm> the last pic you linked to
[17:22:27] <Jymmm> stepdriver
[17:22:33] <cradek> you mean the holes are almost as big as the pad is wide?
[17:22:41] <Jymmm> yeah
[17:23:01] <cradek> yeah that's on purpose, pretty much. the pads have to be as narrow as possible if you hope to run traces between them
[17:23:20] <cradek> they still solder up just fine, since there's plenty of copper in the long direction
[17:23:37] <cradek> you just need the tiniest bit of copper in the narrow direction for it to all fill in nice
[17:23:44] <Jymmm> cradek: Is that just a limitation of the tooling?
[17:23:53] <Danimal-office> cradek: i was just checking out your clocks... how many of those led tubes came from the GE control? :)
[17:24:20] <cradek> Jymmm: yeah that's one part - but even on an etched board, you see that shape
[17:24:42] <cradek> Danimal-office: none - the GE has numitrons which were always a bad idea and not worth reusing
[17:25:07] <Danimal-office> ahh
[17:25:12] <Jymmm> cradek: For example... almost dead center I see a pad with a tiny trace to a longer pad to the right that looks super thin
[17:26:08] <Jymmm> cradek: Seems like it shouldn't have etched as much as it did.
[17:26:55] <cradek> Jymmm: that was a successful pcb but I agree there's always something that could be improved
[17:27:59] <Jymmm> cradek: No, I understand. I'm just trying to learn/understand what/where this issues are coming from so I can watch out and try to avoid them.
[17:28:52] <Danimal-office> Jymmm's a nitpicker
[17:28:54] <Jymmm> Be it eagle, the conversion process, the actual milling, etc
[17:29:07] <Danimal-office> :)
[17:29:30] <skunkworks_> acutal milling. Just changing from milling to drilling could cause something to be off. (on small machines.)
[17:29:41] <cradek> since the trace separation tool is a V, depth control (keeping the board flat) is very important
[17:29:54] <cradek> and eagle has lots of settings of course...
[17:30:20] <cradek> but getting all backlash out of the machine and careful flatness/depth control are the most important
[17:30:26] <cradek> the difference between very good boards and very bad
[17:30:30] <Jymmm> I haven't actually used it yet, just installed once
[17:30:43] <Jymmm> eagle that is
[17:30:52] <cradek> all three that sam and I photographed I'd classify as "very good" results
[17:31:05] <Danimal-office> man this old guy has this really clean all original early 70's ford pickup with a camper on the back, and he just put it up for sale
[17:31:05] <skunkworks_> I really like eagle...
[17:31:29] <Danimal-office> $2500
[17:31:29] <cradek> every pad has full copper around it, traces are even widths all across the board, holes are centered in pads
[17:31:49] <skunkworks_> and it cut all the way through the copper ;)
[17:31:55] <Jymmm> Watch the video... http://fritzing.org/welcome/
[17:32:16] <Jymmm> Allows from breadboarding to PCB, fully documented
[17:32:33] <Jymmm> I just came across it last night
[17:32:40] <cradek> Danimal-office: it's easy to be nostalgic for old cars, but carburetor, points, no AC, no overdrive = suck
[17:32:58] <cradek> (for daily use anyway)
[17:33:29] <Jymmm> 70's have those 50,000 vacuum lines - yuck!
[17:36:26] <Danimal-office> if it's pre-smog (75 or 0lder), it'll all get gutted out and a nice simple 351w with efi will get dropped in
[17:36:43] <Danimal-office> with a 5 speed
[17:36:56] <Danimal-office> or an
[17:37:01] <Danimal-office> AOD
[17:37:07] <Jymmm> You'll have to register it once, and will have to have all the original setup iirc
[17:37:09] <cradek> but that makes a bastard child-car
[17:37:37] <Danimal-office> Jymmm: nope, not if it's registered in this state already
[17:37:48] <Jymmm> cradek: checked out that video?
[17:38:03] <cradek> no
[17:38:28] <Danimal-office> cradek: i just want something pre-smog so i dont have to deal with the BS
[17:38:58] <Danimal-office> it wouldnt really be bastardish, it can be done easily
[17:39:12] <cradek> is it really that hard? I thought it was just a matter of keeping your check engine light off.
[17:39:19] <Danimal-office> not here
[17:39:20] <Jymmm> lol
[17:39:34] <Jymmm> cradek: They even check the gas cap now
[17:39:41] <cradek> we don't have any emissions check here - and we have some shit cars on the road consequently
[17:39:48] <Jymmm> cradek: They pressurize the gas cap itself
[17:39:51] <Danimal-office> yea, i failed for the gas cap once
[17:40:09] <cradek> my car lights it up when I don't get the cap on tight...
[17:40:48] <Jymmm> No, I mean when you get a smog check
[17:41:01] <Jymmm> all on a dymo now too
[17:41:07] <Jymmm> dyno
[17:41:11] <cradek> huh
[17:41:16] <Jymmm> dynometer
[17:42:35] <Danimal-office> cradek: california is a joke, you cant even put aftermarket parts on your car unless the manufacturer paid 50k to the state to make it legal. you cant even put an engine in your car that is older than the vehicle, even if it's the same exact motor, freshly rebuilt, doesnt put out a hint of polution, etc
[17:42:44] <Danimal-office> it's all a money game
[17:42:53] <Jymmm> they throw your car on a dymo, get it going up to 50MPH just to pass smog
[17:43:49] <cradek> http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/uimages/la/110708label-05.jpg/110708label-05.jpg
[17:43:59] <Danimal-office> and the smog stations have to fail a certain amount of cars a day, so they intentionally make them fail sometimes
[17:44:19] <cradek> hm, that sounds hard to believe and/or crazy
[17:44:26] <Danimal-office> i had a smog station change my timing to make my car fail once
[17:44:44] <cradek> brb
[17:44:46] <tom3p> a nice looking eLearning tool could do step by step howtos for emc2 http://sourceforge.net/projects/salasaga/files/Development%20Snapshots/Salasaga%200.8.0-alpha2/ubuntu_8.04-salasaga_0.8.0.alpha2-0ubuntu1_i386.deb/download (beware, this like is necc for ubuntu8.04, else you will have impossible dependancies)
[17:44:56] <Danimal-office> cradek: it's their way to prevent people bribing the smog guys.
[17:45:17] <tom3p> the deps may go away with the new LTS release of ubuntu
[17:45:33] <Danimal-office> if the smog station doesnt fail a certain percentage, they get investigated
[17:47:07] <tom3p> s/beware this like../beware this link is
[17:50:38] <micges> hi tom3p
[18:08:45] <ries> anybody happen to be into vacuum systems, cyclones, motors, impellers and such?
[18:21:53] <JT-Work> I do vacuum applications from time to time
[18:24:41] <danimal_garage> only when he needs the money
[18:25:19] <danimal_garage> sorry, you left it out there, had to do it
[18:29:42] <danimal_garage> find the standoffs you needed?
[18:34:35] <ries> JT-Work: I have 1HP 3450RPM3 phase motor, recond that will be enough to get enough vacuum with a decent size impeller?
[18:35:39] <JT-Work> danimal_garage: nope :( gonna make some
[18:35:45] <danimal_garage> bummer
[18:36:05] <JT-Work> ries: your trying to move wood chips or something like that?
[18:36:42] <ries> JT-Work: sorry, I should have said that... yes, wood chips and dutst, I don't need something hospital clean...
[18:37:32] <ries> they idea is to make one of these cyclones, just for one machine
[18:37:49] <JT-Work> I do pick an place kind of vacuum stuff, I did automate a dust collection system once but did not do any of the mechanical just the PLC controls
[18:38:33] <danimal_garage> a legit 1hp motor has got to be more powerful than these 7.5hp shopvacs from lowes or home depot
[18:38:33] <ries> I guess you don't want to use 1HP and a cyclone for pick and place :)
[18:39:56] <ries> danimal_garage: The engine is the size of your laundry motor, may be a tad bigger.. when I read something liek this : http://tool-corral.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page42.html then I am temted to think that my 1HP engine is not far of for what I want to do
[18:41:22] <danimal_garage> yea
[18:41:28] <danimal_garage> looks like it'll work
[18:41:29] <JT-Work> those are straight blade blowers basically
[18:42:14] <ries> I alwasy though that the engines needs to run faster, but it seems like 3400rpm is enough...
[18:42:37] <ries> I though that a straight blade was also called impeller.... guess I was wrong
[18:43:25] <JT-Work> I had one on an evaporation type fresh water maker that ran 10,000 rpm, I didn't like standing next to it when it ran
[18:43:44] <JT-Work> yes impeller
[18:43:46] <frallzor> lo girls
[18:43:58] <JT-Work> * JT-Work needs to make some chips
[18:44:03] <ries> I will give it a shot with the engine I have... see what I end up with..
[18:44:10] <danimal_garage> jt-plasma: on your lathe!
[18:45:32] <JT-Work> on the mill
[18:45:35] <danimal_garage> aww
[18:46:00] <danimal_garage> think you'll have her running by the end of feb?
[18:48:43] <frallzor> what ya up to ries?
[18:49:25] <ries> frallzor: hey... be back in 10 Wife just made lunche :)
[18:52:48] <frysteev> 10 wife? wow thats gonna be a big lunch
[18:54:00] <danimal_garage> i hope they're at least his wives
[18:55:50] <frallzor> of course not
[18:57:27] <danimal_garage> well i hope their husbands dont own guns
[19:04:24] <ries> heheh
[19:04:27] <ries> 10 minutes...
[19:04:32] <ries> just one wife, I am not arabic :D
[19:04:53] <danimal_garage> Mormon maybe?
[19:05:59] <ries> nope... just dutch :D
[19:16:55] <danimal_garage> do you do Dutch ovens?
[19:18:56] <pjm> urgh
[19:38:29] <danimal_garage> cradek: is your lathe secured to the sheetmetal base? mine's mounted with springs between the bolt heads and base so you can actually lift it a little.
[19:38:49] <danimal_garage> thought that was rather odd.
[19:39:04] <danimal_garage> might be the source of any mysterious leaks as well
[19:42:10] <archivist> I seem to have some iron in the garden :)
[19:42:54] <danimal_garage> pics?
[19:43:55] <bill2or3> is that a metaphor for something?
[19:44:56] <archivist> too dark for pics now :)
[19:45:28] <archivist> but the machines arrived :)
[19:48:14] <danimal_garage> what'd you get?
[19:50:49] <archivist> Bechler sliding head lathe, Schaublin 120 lathe, Adcock and Shipley no1 miller and a Barber Coleman hobbing machine
[19:55:01] <danimal_garage> cool!
[19:55:10] <danimal_garage> all salvagable?
[19:59:33] <JT-Work> a little iron is good for the roses...
[20:03:07] <archivist> hope so, some I have used so condition is known
[20:05:19] <Danimal-office> cool
[20:10:55] <skunkworks_> question... When you invert the printer port pin - do you not see the change in halscope?
[20:12:02] <skunkworks_> (output)
[20:12:16] <cradek> no, I don't see how you could
[20:12:31] <cradek> setp parport....out true
[20:12:31] <skunkworks_> ok - I didn't know if the invert was a hal thing or a hardware thing.
[20:12:41] <cradek> you would not have it show false would you?
[20:15:25] <tom3p> archivist: cool! did the iron fairy arrived or did you plant the seeds last fall?
[20:15:26] <skunkworks_> I ment - I am outputting pwm to the printer port pin 1. If I look at pin 1 in halscope - whether the pin is inverted or not - The pwm looks the same
[20:16:19] <cradek> right
[20:16:20] <archivist> tom3p, iron fairy, ex boss donation
[20:16:36] <tom3p> archivist: nice guy
[20:17:06] <archivist> tom3p, except I no longer have a job
[20:18:07] <tom3p> archivist: some biblical thingy about tools and workman come to mind but being in the same boat, i bet you dont wish to know that
[20:20:33] <archivist> ok edited old pics the pile not including small things http://www.archivist.info/cnc/works2008b/
[20:21:18] <archivist> I need to go outside and cover and oil etc
[20:21:39] <cradek> I love how the mill says MODERN on it
[20:22:08] <archivist> 1945 or 46 not sure
[20:22:09] <danimal_garage> neat machines
[20:24:01] <archivist> cradek, sliding head lathe could mean uncoordinated moves and later on synchronised
[20:37:15] <geo01005> archivist: I hope you find some things to make and sell using those.
[20:53:03] <danimal_garage> dont try to cnc them either!
[21:00:48] <archivist> hell why not!
[21:01:24] <archivist> the cost of setting up the sliding head would be silly with all the cams it needs
[21:02:33] <Danimal-office> it's a sin to hack up old iron
[21:02:36] <archivist> I think the cam to clamp unclamp would remain though
[21:03:32] <archivist> its probably possible to make it cnc without many extra holes or mods
[21:03:34] <andypugh> The hobbing machine looks like a perfect candidate for CNC, using encoder_ratio to give you electronic shaft ratios.
[21:03:53] <archivist> yup
[21:04:24] <archivist> open the gear cover and extend the shafts to drive/encode
[21:05:11] <archivist> just added WD40 for the night
[21:41:38] <danimal_garage> how come the comments in the tool table get erased everytime you touch off a tool?
[21:42:53] <danimal_garage> any way to fix that?
[21:43:17] <cradek> what version?
[21:43:23] <danimal_garage> 2.3.4
[21:43:27] <danimal_garage> just updated
[21:43:36] <danimal_garage> this week
[21:44:02] <cradek> I'm pretty sure they don't...
[21:44:36] <danimal_garage> i just entered them twice thinking maybe i didnt save it the first time, and they got erased both times the next time i touched off a tool
[21:44:58] <cradek> maybe you're entering the comment while emc is running but then not reloading the tool table
[21:45:15] <danimal_garage> oh yea, i'm not reloading the tool table
[21:45:20] <danimal_garage> good call
[21:46:13] <danimal_garage> man i'm pretty good at causing weird issues for myself, huh
[21:46:33] <cradek> yes that's the pattern
[21:46:38] <cradek> :-)
[21:47:23] <danimal_garage> you're not supposed to agree with me :(
[21:47:25] <danimal_garage> lol
[21:49:54] <danimal_garage> cradek: i'm thinking of making a disk encoder for the mill's spindle
[21:50:10] <danimal_garage> i was planning on putting it on the pulley that's on the spindle
[21:51:17] <danimal_garage> i'm ditching the vari drive unit for some cogged pullies and a belt, so i was gunna mount the disk onto the spindle's pulley
[21:52:03] <danimal_garage> not sure if the spindle's pulley has any float to it which would cause an issue with the encoder
[21:53:45] <archivist> cradek, ever heard of a french watchmakers tool company called MAC were in Besançon, got a small hand press
[21:54:11] <cradek> nope
[21:54:13] <danimal_garage> i know the spindle's shaft is splined, and the pulley is broached to fit it, but i cant remember if the pulley is located solely by the splined spindle, or if it has it's own bearings and whatnot to align it so it's in a fixed position
[21:55:26] <danimal_garage> OH! i tihnk i have an exploded view of the spindle assembly somewhere
[21:56:28] <danimal_garage> sweet, it does have it's own bearings
[21:56:55] <danimal_garage> that makes it easier
[21:57:42] <danimal_garage> in fact, i might be able to machine one of the pulley halves into the disk for the encoder
[22:06:31] <tom3p> got the edm osc down to 50nS rez & a python calculator to go with it ( resolves on & off to F & D% then to the register values, scope sez its good over a fair number of samples).
[22:06:32] <tom3p> now if i can use it without line loss on input or amplified output...
[22:11:47] <andypugh> danimal_garage: My home-made encoder is working well.
[22:12:24] <cradek> beware you probably need more resolution for tapping than threading
[22:12:33] <cradek> (the more the better)
[22:13:12] <danimal_garage> what resolution do you think is enough?
[22:13:26] <danimal_garage> andypugh: yours is on the lathe, right?
[22:13:36] <andypugh> Yes.
[22:14:21] <andypugh> 200 slots I think. I was aiming for 360 but the slitting saw made wider than anticipated gaps, so I changed my mind.
[22:16:16] <danimal_garage> how wide are your gaps?
[22:16:38] <danimal_garage> or how wide were you aiming for?
[22:16:40] <andypugh> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/iHKPEhyEJB1_zbvUYLQ6JA?feat=directlink
[22:16:52] <andypugh> (and the following two pictures)
[22:17:55] <andypugh> I am using reflective sensors in case you are wondering.
[22:18:07] <danimal_garage> cool
[22:18:16] <danimal_garage> cant tell the size of the slots by the pic though
[22:18:17] <alex_joni> http://www.spatial.com/products/thread-safe-acis-video
[22:18:24] <tom3p> is the 1 slot for index?
[22:19:15] <andypugh> Yes, I just have one that is longer and then two sensors on the same screw.
[22:19:32] <tom3p> cool
[22:20:05] <danimal_garage> hmm... yea the most i can get in there is probably the same as yours... maybe a little more
[22:20:25] <danimal_garage> maybe 300
[22:20:31] <tom3p> alex_joni: is that acis thread stuff useful on emc2?
[22:20:58] <tom3p> danimal_garage: wedm for skinny slots ;)
[22:21:19] <danimal_garage> well i dont know hoe thin i can go, i'd have to research the encoders
[22:21:23] <danimal_garage> how*
[22:21:45] <JT-Work> danimal_garage: you can get encoders from AutomationDirect for about $90
[22:21:47] <tom3p> i got 50nS on & 150nSoff :))) (only 2 bits rez at this freq)
[22:22:02] <danimal_garage> jt-plasma: disk encoders?
[22:22:13] <andypugh> My problem was finding an encoder with a 30mm through-hole.
[22:22:24] <andypugh> A mill with a drawbar will have the same issue.
[22:22:24] <tom3p> sealed rotary
[22:22:29] <JT-Work> * JT-Work waves at danimal_garage I'm over here
[22:23:05] <danimal_garage> JT-Work: disk encoders?
[22:23:09] <tom3p> haha a rotary encoder tells you where you are a rosary encoder tells you where you wish you were
[22:23:09] <danimal_garage> :)
[22:23:18] <JT-Work> danimal_garage: not sure what you mean
[22:23:26] <JT-Work> http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Sensors_-z-_Encoders/Encoders/Light_Duty_Standard_Shaft_%28TRD-S_Series%29
[22:23:33] <andypugh> Do you reckon that a cordless circular saw would cut through 1/2" aluminium gauge plate?
[22:23:42] <JT-Work> yes it will
[22:23:49] <danimal_garage> once lol
[22:23:59] <JT-Work> till the battery runs down
[22:24:53] <danimal_garage> JT-Work: i have no way to mount a shaft encoder. i have a power drawbar
[22:24:54] <andypugh> Battery still shows good, 2x 6" squares later. I am impressed. (Ryobi Li-Ion)
[22:25:09] <tom3p> i need a faster scope, everything fits in one division now
[22:25:10] <JT-Work> BP type mill?
[22:25:18] <danimal_garage> yea, my shizuoka
[22:25:27] <JT-Work> got ya now
[22:25:53] <andypugh> That was why I made my own, commercial ones don't mount easily. (unless belt driven, of course, which is an option)
[22:25:59] <JT-Work> got room for a small timing pulley on the spindle somewhere?
[22:26:11] <danimal_garage> yea, i suppose i can do that
[22:27:23] <andypugh> It doesn't take long to make an encoder like mine. About 20 minutes. It took over an hour to cut, but I wasn't watching...
[22:32:56] <danimal_garage> i wonder how many counts i should go with
[22:33:23] <danimal_garage> if i use a belt, there's gotta be some gear reduction
[22:33:37] <tom3p> can you mount a tape on the shaft itself ? http://www.rsf.net/msr_40_series.html
[22:35:11] <danimal_garage> hmm
[22:36:36] <tom3p> that pic shows a disk with a special clamp fixing tape ends
[22:37:12] <andypugh> My Mk-1 encoder was very similar in principle but very much lower-cost. I laser-printed an array of lines onto paper and wrapped it round the spindle. It worked well once cradek modified the G76 code. I only changed the design because I wanted direction too.
[22:38:01] <danimal_garage> i think a timing belt might be the easiest the more i think about it
[22:38:09] <danimal_garage> and probably the best
[22:38:31] <tom3p> it measures the position of the encoder ;)
[22:39:23] <tom3p> ive used belted encoder and got burned when the axis was calibrated by another party with really good metrology
[22:39:54] <danimal_garage> there's a plate on the front of the head that is doweled and bolted on, and i can use that to accurately position the encoder
[22:40:44] <tom3p> i just mean the belts isnt a constant, its wiggly
[22:41:23] <tom3p> may be good enuf, you can try pretty cheaply
[22:41:26] <andypugh> I doubt many machines are rigid enough for that to matter for the spindle.
[22:41:45] <danimal_garage> my hardinge is belt driven
[22:42:12] <danimal_garage> a floating tap holder will fix that
[22:42:31] <andypugh> I did it the way I did partly because I had all the parts, and this is very much a hobby-project.
[23:25:56] <jt-plasma> Yea! my video card and cpu heatsink and fan came in for the Hardinge today
[23:26:17] <andypugh> Is there any way to read serial data into HAL?
[23:26:39] <andypugh> I see that the individual lines are addressable, but no way to send/recieve bytes.
[23:27:50] <jt-plasma> don't some of the modbus components do that???
[23:32:36] <andypugh> Possibly, I will look into it.
[23:36:49] <tom3p> andypugh: hal pyserial read & write done in jepler arduino i/f & pyvcp http://axis.unpy.net/01198525592
[23:37:19] <tom3p> and done in the repstrap emc stuff
[23:39:24] <tom3p> at 819150nS on & 50Ns off, it works, done verifying band sweep
[23:39:38] <andypugh> Looks promising. I might be about to win some drives on eBay. They will work with step/direction but I am not sure how to work the feedback aspect as they really expect to work with serial commands.
[23:40:17] <tom3p> maybe theres a step & dir inside
[23:40:53] <tom3p> did you win those 6 servos from the charity auction?
[23:40:58] <andypugh> Those are the ones.
[23:41:20] <tom3p> >>>best<<< of luck
[23:41:28] <andypugh> They will connect straight up as step-direction drives, but I am wondering how to flag up following errors
[23:42:14] <andypugh> They look to have the same peak torque as my existing steppers, but 10x the speed.
[23:45:34] <andypugh> Actually, it looks like the motors have 7 programmable I/O lines, so it might just be a simple case of configuration. It also seems that the encoder outputs are available externally too, so they can go straight to EMC.
[23:45:52] <danimal_garage> sweet
[23:46:01] <danimal_garage> hope ya get them
[23:46:09] <danimal_garage> how much torque?
[23:46:18] <jt-plasma> * jt-plasma listens to Rusty Warren
[23:47:19] <andypugh> I am not sure. At least 1Nm / 150oz-in , but probably 2.5Nm/350oz.in
[23:47:41] <danimal_garage> lil guys, huh
[23:47:49] <andypugh> More importantly, the torque is flat to 2000rpm.
[23:47:55] <andypugh> Yes, Nema23
[23:48:02] <danimal_garage> nice
[23:49:02] <tom3p> i had to get drives for a trunnion, and the spec said 8.5nM i didnt believe it till i saw the rotary counterweight, like 1meter radius
[23:49:43] <danimal_garage> i wonder if i gear my steppers down if i'd loose a ton of top speed
[23:49:49] <danimal_garage> or if it'd help
[23:50:03] <jt-plasma> aww crap
[23:50:09] <andypugh> You would need the speed/torque curves and probably a spreadsheet.
[23:51:11] <danimal_garage> what i really need is a prayer
[23:52:07] <danimal_garage> whats wrong jt-plasma?
[23:53:34] <jt-plasma> video card I just got in has a different looking plug
[23:53:52] <danimal_garage> dvi?
[23:53:54] <jt-plasma> it was suppose to be agp
[23:53:57] <danimal_garage> oh
[23:54:00] <jt-plasma> the mobo part
[23:54:01] <danimal_garage> pci-e?
[23:54:21] <andypugh> NuBus :-?
[23:54:29] <danimal_garage> ISA?
[23:54:53] <PCW> Futurebus?
[23:55:04] <danimal_garage> i got a few agp cards, i coulda sent ya one
[23:56:02] <jt-plasma> the box says agp 8x 4x 2x but the connector has a hook like the newer ones
[23:56:22] <danimal_garage> hmm
[23:57:06] <PCW> AGP/PCI has 50 mill pitch, PCIE: 1mm
[23:57:38] <andypugh> Wikipedia indicates that if it will go in the slot, it will work.
[23:58:39] <PCW> I love it when you talk dirty!
[23:58:46] <jt-plasma> I plugged it in now lets let the smoke out
[23:59:34] <Jymmm> jt-plasma: toss some bbq sauce on it
[23:59:55] <andypugh> http://attachments.techguy.org/attachments/150269d1241201189/agp-x4-x2.jpg