#emc | Logs for 2010-01-23

[00:00:33] <Goslowjimbo> I found out the initialization of classicladder in demo_step_cl on the distribution disk leaves out a -w when bringing up the GUI.
[00:01:13] <steves_logging> steves_logging is now known as steve_stallings
[00:01:20] <Goslowjimbo> Is this a known situation?
[00:25:00] <tom3p> andypugh: series caps block DC. whats this connected to? (or blocks lo freq anyway). if its the halls then its passing the ac sinus like output. used for rotor position
[00:34:36] <andypugh> Sorry, was looking at the PCB
[00:34:43] <andypugh> The caps are just decoupling
[00:35:12] <andypugh> Channels A and C go direct to the H1 and H2 pins on the motor control chip.
[00:35:41] <andypugh> But Chan B goes via a 1K resistor, a transistor and then to Pin 3
[00:35:59] <andypugh> And is inverted in the process.
[00:36:51] <andypugh> I am tempted to pull the 1k resistor, and wire direct to the chip, and then swap the wires in the connector.
[00:37:41] <archivist_emc> may have been done to make its propriety
[00:37:51] <andypugh> That is very much my impression.
[00:38:18] <andypugh> It makes the hall logic not match the commercial chip.
[00:38:37] <danimal_garage> doooo it!
[00:38:53] <archivist_emc> let the smoke out!
[00:38:55] <andypugh> I was thinking that they might have buffering, but there isn't anything on 2 channels, just a decoupling cap
[00:39:16] <andypugh> I have a spare board, so it is fairly low-risk
[00:40:06] <danimal_garage> do you feel the peer pressure
[00:40:30] <andypugh> I see it more as a distinct lack of discouragement. :-)
[00:40:56] <danimal_garage> "hold my beer, this is gunna be cool"
[00:41:24] <archivist_emc> is it time to get another beer and sit and watch the fun
[00:42:03] <andypugh> Well, perhaps not right now. It's gone midnight.
[00:42:25] <andypugh> Hmm, just let me have another look...
[00:42:30] <archivist_emc> aw..I was thirsty
[00:43:40] <danimal_garage> yea
[00:43:45] <danimal_garage> i cracked a beer anyways
[00:44:17] <danimal_garage> hmmm i need to find encoders for my spindles
[00:44:29] <danimal_garage> for the mill and lathe
[00:45:00] <danimal_garage> anything special i need to look for or stay away from? broad question, i know
[00:47:32] <archivist_emc> while we have a beer and wait http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0DxmthvkKU some music
[00:50:33] <danimal_garage> i think i'll put in the lathe's braking resistor
[00:51:37] <danimal_garage> i wish i got these things a long time ago
[00:52:23] <danimal_garage> i cant believe archivist never told me to get braking resistors
[00:53:24] <Jymmm> alex_joni: Nice job in the radio!!!
[00:53:34] <Jymmm> s/in/on/
[00:53:54] <danimal_garage> yea that radio is awesome
[00:54:10] <danimal_garage> i want one with just preamp outputs for the HT
[00:56:55] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: 2TB $150
[01:04:21] <lilalinux> lilalinux is now known as lilalinux_away
[01:05:09] <andypugh> OK, it works.
[01:05:36] <andypugh> Not sure it is working right, I will check my phasing tomorrow. I suspect I might be 30 degrees out or something.
[01:05:47] <andypugh> But the motors go round now.
[01:06:18] <archivist_emc> :)
[01:06:37] <danimal_garage> cool!
[01:06:44] <danimal_garage> good work
[01:08:48] <andypugh> You know you were looking for encoders? Have you considered buying some small, cheap, servo motors and ignoring the motor part? They seem to go for less than bare encoders on eBay...
[01:18:40] <danimal_garage> yea i thought about that, might just do it, thanks
[01:21:45] <andypugh> Right, goodnight all.
[01:22:11] <danimal_garage> goodnight
[02:03:48] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[02:03:54] <jthornton> goodnight
[02:21:26] <kristianpaul> nite
[02:26:00] <jthornton> he's dead Jim
[02:27:19] <Jymmm> who's dead?
[02:27:29] <jthornton> my mobo
[02:27:43] <Jymmm> jthornton: take it out back and shoot it!
[02:27:59] <jthornton> or out front!
[02:28:13] <Jymmm> that too
[02:28:19] <Jymmm> then smoke it till tender
[02:28:35] <jthornton> dang it that is my dev docs computer...
[02:28:48] <Jymmm> jthornton: backups?
[02:29:09] <jthornton> hd is ok I think but it is all on git
[02:29:24] <Jymmm> that's cool then.
[02:29:54] <jthornton> I can't think of what else to check on the dang thing
[02:30:08] <Jymmm> what's it not doing?
[02:30:14] <jthornton> played with memory, video cards, cpu, power supply
[02:30:19] <jthornton> it won't boot up
[02:30:27] <Jymmm> does it power up?
[02:30:37] <jthornton> powers up but no keyboard lights or vid out
[02:30:46] <Jymmm> any beeps?
[02:31:06] <jthornton> nope, unless I remove the memory then a long beep
[02:31:52] <jthornton> keyboard lock led's don't blink either
[02:31:59] <Jymmm> do you have a livecd?
[02:32:11] <jthornton> yep, didn't think of that
[02:32:23] <jthornton> * jthornton pops one in
[02:32:30] <Jymmm> unplug the hdd and try booting from the livecd
[02:33:05] <Jymmm> if booting from the cd alone w/ hdd doesnt work
[02:34:11] <jthornton> the cd led came on for a few seconds then nothing
[02:34:47] <Jymmm> you said video cards, as in plural?
[02:35:09] <jthornton> yea, I tried two different ones
[02:35:23] <Jymmm> does the mobo have on baord video?
[02:36:01] <jthornton> yes
[02:36:25] <Jymmm> Ok, remove all plugin video cards and use the onboard video
[02:37:06] <Jymmm> Are there any other cards plugged in?
[02:37:25] <Jymmm> network, I/O, etc
[02:37:47] <jthornton> yes
[02:38:01] <Jymmm> does the mobo have built in NIC ?
[02:39:18] <jthornton> ? nic
[02:39:34] <Jymmm> NIC == Network Interface Card
[02:39:58] <jthornton> yes
[02:40:30] <Jymmm> Ok, lets make this easier.... remove all the cards you can, and just use as much built-in as you can.
[02:41:05] <jthornton> done, no signal at monitor and no keyboard leds work
[02:41:18] <Jymmm> no beeps?
[02:41:25] <jthornton> power light is on no activity on hd and no beeps
[02:41:54] <Jymmm> have many dimms are installed?
[02:42:03] <jthornton> 2
[02:42:18] <jthornton> unplugged all the external usb stuff to
[02:42:41] <Jymmm> try removing one of the dimms - leave BANK 0 DIMM
[02:43:08] <Jymmm> Does the CPU feel warm/hot?
[02:43:25] <Jymmm> Is the CP fan spinning?
[02:43:28] <Jymmm> CPU
[02:43:33] <jthornton> * jthornton gets his telescope out to see which one is bank 0
[02:43:42] <jthornton> it's unplugged atm
[02:43:42] <Danimal> i had the same problem on a few pc's, it was always the processor
[02:43:53] <Jymmm> jthornton: What's unplugged?
[02:44:01] <jthornton> cpu fan
[02:44:10] <Jymmm> jthornton: no no plug that in!!!!!
[02:44:17] <jthornton> I have dimm1-4
[02:44:32] <Jymmm> Ok, leave BANK 1, remvoe Bank 2-4
[02:44:57] <Jymmm> jthornton: Is the CPU fan plugged into the PS or the mobo ?
[02:45:07] <jthornton> mobo
[02:45:08] <Danimal> mobo usually
[02:45:10] <jthornton> and it works
[02:45:14] <Jymmm> ok
[02:45:44] <Jymmm> Once you only have one DIMM, see if it comes up
[02:45:53] <Jymmm> Did you plugg the monitor into the mobo?
[02:45:58] <jthornton> nope, yes
[02:46:13] <Jymmm> Is is dusty inside?
[02:46:28] <jthornton> power light on, cpu fan on, kinda clean inside
[02:46:43] <tom3p> whose bios gibes 1 long beep w/o mem?
[02:47:06] <tom3p> nobodys
[02:47:11] <jthornton> mine does
[02:47:13] <Jymmm> jthornton: Is the cpu warm/hot to the touch?
[02:47:27] <tom3p> jthornton: what bios you got
[02:47:37] <jthornton> slightly warm
[02:47:49] <jthornton> tom3p: dunno
[02:47:58] <jthornton> won't boot up
[02:48:02] <tom3p> says on a chip
[02:48:05] <jthornton> it's a gateway
[02:48:19] <Jymmm> jthornton: Ok, power everything off, unplug all of it... video, mouse, keyboard, power. and wit at least 30 minutes.
[02:48:30] <Jymmm> s/wit/wait/
[02:48:38] <tom3p> award amd phoenix look for those words whil eit cools
[02:49:29] <Jymmm> jthornton: Did it get dropped, bumped, anythign like that?
[02:49:40] <jthornton> tom3p: if it has a chip it is covered up with a heat sink
[02:49:43] <jthornton> Jymmm: no
[02:50:04] <jthornton> the power went off for 15 minutes yesterday
[02:50:19] <jthornton> was not working when I came home
[02:50:56] <jthornton> * jthornton gits the Kimber out
[02:51:03] <Jymmm> jthornton: Ok, try reseating the CPU again, being extra careful to make sure it's seated correctly but DO NOT power up and test for at least 30 minutes with EVERYTHING unplugged.
[02:51:14] <jthornton> ok
[02:51:18] <Danimal> what mobo is it? might be able to figure out the bios by searching the model
[02:51:24] <Jymmm> jthornton: 45 minutes wouldn't hurt
[02:51:29] <jthornton> Jymmm: what does the 30 min wait do?
[02:51:31] <ries> hey Guys, I am more then happy to announce that my machine is working :) Hurraaaay
[02:51:44] <Danimal> nice ries!
[02:51:47] <Danimal> pics?
[02:51:48] <tom3p> touch a ground before touching cpu (winter static)
[02:51:50] <Danimal> vid?
[02:52:03] <ries> Danimal: preparing to upload a video.... it cut's the AXIS startup sign ;)
[02:52:11] <Danimal> cool!
[02:52:23] <Jymmm> jthornton: With everythign unplugged, it'll give it a chance 1) to cool down if it's thermal issue, and 2) discharge all the caps in case soem data bit is triggered.
[02:53:14] <Jymmm> jthornton: With it plugged in but off, there is still 5VDC runnign thru the system,
[02:53:27] <Jymmm> PC's are never truely OFF
[02:53:59] <jthornton> ok
[02:54:37] <tom3p> jthornton: if you post the model maybe we can find some info for you
[02:55:11] <Jymmm> jthornton: In the mean time, maybe you can grab a hdd to backup all the data if you get it to boot up at least once.
[02:55:44] <tom3p> the hd & cd led blinking at power up doesnt mean much besides some kinda voltage appears for some time.
[02:55:46] <jthornton> gateway GT4010
[02:55:57] <tom3p> got another box you can plug the hd into?
[02:56:02] <tom3p> thx will look
[02:56:05] <Valen> jthornton got a port 80 card?
[02:56:08] <jthornton> yes
[02:56:19] <Valen> whats it say?
[02:56:20] <jthornton> Valen: dunno what that is
[02:56:28] <Valen> ahh
[02:56:33] <jthornton> yes to tom3p
[02:57:17] <Jymmm> jthornton: Sorry, but it looks like that mobo is a lemon... http://www.fixya.com/support/t222139-gateway_gt4010_problem
[02:57:39] <Valen> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.21997
[02:59:15] <jthornton> Jymmm: guess it is time to make lemon-aid
[02:59:43] <Jymmm> jthornton: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121359
[03:00:13] <Jymmm> jthornton: Jsut be sure to take off the heatsinks and apply some good thermal grease on them
[03:00:24] <Danimal> when life gives you lemons, you make lemonade'
[03:00:36] <jthornton> the cpu is loaded up with thermal paste
[03:00:44] <Valen> if its not posting gooing up the heatsinks isnt going to do much
[03:00:54] <Jymmm> jthornton: No, No, sorry I meant the link I gave
[03:00:55] <jthornton> Jymmm: is this a direct replacment for my board?
[03:00:57] <Valen> less is more with the thermal goo
[03:01:02] <jthornton> ok
[03:01:14] <Jymmm> jthornton: No, just a nice lil board that will run EMC
[03:01:21] <Jymmm> with low latency
[03:01:29] <Valen> well not too bad
[03:01:34] <Valen> mine is ~4000 or so
[03:01:38] <jthornton> nice, what kind of cpu
[03:01:43] <Jymmm> Dual Atom
[03:01:53] <Valen> thats with the SMP kernel though
[03:02:15] <Jymmm> Or a nice lil desktop
[03:02:39] <Jymmm> It even has S-Video out
[03:02:42] <Jymmm> if you care
[03:02:59] <Danimal> good for interwebs porn on the tv
[03:03:00] <Valen> sucks it doesn't have DVI out though
[03:03:11] <Valen> I have a quad core for that danimal ;->
[03:03:22] <Jymmm> there is one PCI slot
[03:03:33] <Danimal> cant slouch on the porn pc
[03:03:55] <Jymmm> bbl
[03:04:03] <jthornton> ok
[03:04:17] <Jymmm> jthornton: good luck
[03:04:25] <jthornton> thanks
[03:04:35] <Valen> jthornton, only other thing you can try is to clear the cmos
[03:04:38] <Valen> that can help them
[03:05:00] <Danimal> was this machine going to be your hardinge's pc?
[03:05:04] <jthornton> Valen: how do you do that? a jumper
[03:05:09] <Valen> yeah
[03:05:18] <jthornton> Danimal: no I do the EMC dev docs on it
[03:05:31] <Danimal> oh thats right
[03:05:55] <jthornton> lol I found the clear cmos jumper
[03:06:13] <Valen> typically you unplug mains power
[03:06:14] <jthornton> do you put it on clear then power on?
[03:06:18] <Valen> put the jumper onto clear
[03:06:23] <Valen> wait 10-15 secs
[03:06:29] <Valen> put it back to normal and try that
[03:06:33] <jthornton> ok
[03:07:50] <jthornton> IT'S ALIVE
[03:08:11] <Danimal> ????
[03:08:12] <Danimal> wow
[03:08:21] <Danimal> i gotta try that on my dead pc
[03:08:46] <Danimal> nice work Valen
[03:08:56] <jthornton> yea, it want's me to re-set the cpu freq in the cmos setup
[03:09:43] <jthornton> cmos checksum error - defaults loaded F1 continue, F2 enter setup?
[03:10:03] <Danimal> my puppy thinks that since she likes to be pet, that everyone else does to. getting clawed all the time is so nice. i hope she outgrows that
[03:10:29] <jthornton> put socks on her
[03:10:34] <Danimal> ha
[03:10:42] <Danimal> those wont last 1 minute
[03:10:45] <tom3p> jthornton: let it rest, rad on web. not a popular mobo (ktbc51g). others had similar 'no boot' had to clear cmos AND use external video
[03:10:52] <tom3p> read on web
[03:11:30] <jthornton> ok
[03:12:22] <tom3p> get ready to move data and get a new mobo ( tiger direct actually carries a refurn p/s just for the gt4010)
[03:12:35] <tom3p> great that you got it back up
[03:12:53] <jthornton> yea, even ubuntu is loading now
[03:13:20] <Valen> jthornton yeah you need to reset everything
[03:13:48] <jthornton> I wonder if the power dropping out had a bad effect on that one...
[03:13:53] <Valen> Danimal, whats wrong with yours?
[03:14:09] <jthornton> Valen: 1 down 1 to go :)
[03:14:15] <Danimal> took the video card out one day, and it would never boot again
[03:14:27] <Valen> jthornton, if there is a spike it can drive electrons into the insulation layer, that can cause transistors to lock "on"
[03:14:27] <Danimal> tried swapping everything
[03:15:07] <Valen> when its powered off the cmos battery still keeps some power floating around, clear cmos can help to fix that
[03:15:18] <Valen> Danimal, what kind of video card?
[03:15:20] <jthornton> it sure did!
[03:15:43] <Danimal> i dunno, geforce something or other
[03:15:47] <Danimal> agp
[03:16:08] <Valen> with AGP you have to make sure when you put the new one in that you screw it in
[03:16:20] <Valen> also there are some agp's that are incompatible
[03:16:28] <Valen> like a 4x card in an 8x slot I think
[03:16:52] <Danimal> it's an asus a7n8x deluxe
[03:17:13] <Danimal> even when i put a pci card or the same card back in, no dice
[03:17:33] <Valen> was the power off when you pulled it?>
[03:17:36] <Valen> as in at the switch
[03:17:37] <Danimal> it was full of dust
[03:17:48] <Danimal> yes and unplugged i would think
[03:18:27] <Danimal> it was so dusty that you couldnt see any color through the dust... just all brown
[03:18:42] <Valen> heh not awesome
[03:18:48] <Danimal> yea
[03:18:49] <Valen> did you blow it out or something like that?
[03:18:53] <Danimal> yea
[03:19:07] <Valen> yeah, that can be a bad idea
[03:19:14] <Valen> high speed air can cause static
[03:19:25] <Danimal> eve before i did that, it didnt work
[03:19:29] <Valen> ahh
[03:19:33] <Danimal> even*
[03:19:42] <Danimal> good to know though
[03:20:33] <Valen> same for vaccuming too btw
[03:20:41] <Valen> the hose especially can get full of static
[03:21:27] <Danimal> so what do you use? dishwasher?
[03:21:58] <Danimal> :)
[03:23:44] <Valen> actually a shaving brush
[03:23:46] <Valen> old school style
[03:23:49] <Danimal> ha
[03:23:51] <Valen> and paper envelopes
[03:24:21] <Danimal> sounds like alot of work
[03:24:23] <jthornton> for some reason it won't boot when I put the video card back in...
[03:26:42] <tom3p> shaving brush, my fave, also great for cleaning keyboards and lcd screens
[03:28:01] <tom3p> jthornton: did you disable on board vid in bios?
[03:28:59] <jthornton> it didn't even boot, I'll try again in a bit archiveing some files to another computer :)
[03:31:26] <steve_stallings> steve_stallings is now known as steves_logging
[03:31:32] <SWPadnos> do yourself a favor, and get a USB to IDE/SATA adapter
[03:31:49] <SWPadnos> they're $20-$40, and they turn any hard disk into a USB hard disk
[03:31:55] <SWPadnos> archiving is a hell of a lot easier with one
[03:32:15] <SWPadnos> (you can also just plug the hard disk into another computer as a secondary IDE drive)
[03:34:15] <jthornton> the analog side of the video card works but the digital plug does not
[03:34:42] <SWPadnos> was the DVI port plugged in when you powered on the computer?
[03:34:43] <Valen> yeah get a new pc man
[03:35:19] <SWPadnos> heh. this always happens on a Friday, too late to place an online order
[03:35:44] <jthornton> I tried one at a time
[03:36:11] <SWPadnos> some older cards would default to analog, and only enable digital if a monitor was detected at startup
[03:36:28] <SWPadnos> which could be defined as power-on ...
[03:36:38] <jthornton> ok
[03:37:17] <Valen> most cards will only outut a display if its connected when X starts
[03:37:22] <SWPadnos> (longshot, but what the heck)
[03:37:32] <SWPadnos> well, the BIOS stuff should go somewhere
[03:38:10] <SWPadnos> but some early DVI cards would only output to one monitor at bootup, and sometimes that would be automagically decided
[03:38:29] <jthornton> LOL
[03:38:52] <jthornton> it thinks it is 12-31-2004
[03:41:01] <jthornton> thanks for the help guys
[03:41:08] <jthornton> say goodnight Gracie
[03:41:21] <SWPadnos> you're not Gracie ... :)
[03:41:56] <jthornton> :)
[03:42:11] <jthornton> someone has to tell her to say goodnight :)
[03:42:16] <SWPadnos> herh
[03:42:20] <SWPadnos> -r
[03:42:31] <jthornton> your heh key had a hiccup
[03:42:52] <ries> Danimal: 15 minutes upload... stay tuned :)
[03:43:45] <danimal_garage> ries: cool
[03:43:53] <Valen> question for yers, in the sample config for the mesa 5i23 it says 3 encoders + 3 pwm generators
[03:44:01] <Valen> it doesn't seem to say where the pins for those are
[03:44:12] <Valen> I'm wanting to add a stepgen to that for a rotary table
[03:44:12] <SWPadnos> look in dmesg, the pinout is printed there
[03:44:24] <Valen> yeah, but how do you set what they are?
[03:44:29] <danimal_garage> SWPadnos: what was that hal component you mentioned that would select which way for my turret to go depending opn the tool number called?
[03:44:32] <SWPadnos> you don't
[03:44:37] <SWPadnos> modmath
[03:44:40] <Valen> but I was wondering how one tells it where to send those pins
[03:44:44] <SWPadnos> you don't
[03:44:46] <danimal_garage> thank you
[03:44:48] <cradek> you can't, you add the stepgen, see where the pins end up, and wire up to them
[03:44:57] <Valen> ahh, thats less than cool
[03:45:01] <jthornton> Valen: you see where they are with dmesg
[03:45:02] <SWPadnos> each function has a specific place it will show up
[03:45:15] <SWPadnos> the pin is either that advanced function, or it's GPIO
[03:45:23] <SWPadnos> danimal_garage, sure
[03:45:26] <cradek> it's pretty much how firmwares have to work unfortunately
[03:45:42] <danimal_garage> i didnt find it in the manual, is there documentation on it?
[03:45:43] <SWPadnos> it would be a nightmare to put a full crossbar into the FPGA
[03:45:45] <cradek> I wish it was all reassignable too, but nope
[03:45:51] <jthornton> Valen: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html//drivers_hostmot2.html#r1_7
[03:46:17] <jthornton> danimal_garage: same link
[03:46:21] <SWPadnos> not so much because it won't fit (it will, for the 5i23 or 5i22), but because it would be a complete disaster specifying where everything goes
[03:47:07] <Valen> hmm, because I have an isolated I/O card I was hoping to run the stepper through
[03:48:04] <pcw_home> you can use the .PIN file to tell you where things are as well...
[03:49:03] <Valen> pcw_home, that wont let me put step + dir on gpio pin 45 + 47 though will it?
[03:49:14] <cradek> danimal_garage: my solution: http://timeguy.com/cradek-files/emc/carousel-reverse-is-closer.png
[03:49:19] <danimal_garage> hmm i dont see anything on modmath
[03:49:33] <pcw_home> (If you are thinking of wiring the step&dir through a 7I37, not a good idea - too slow)
[03:49:50] <danimal_garage> ah cool thanks cradek
[03:50:00] <cradek> danimal_garage: the variable names are roughly "carousel position" "prep number requested", "carousel has been homed", "reverse direction is closer"
[03:50:10] <Valen> pcw_home: orly? that sucks, I thought they were good to ~100khz or so output?
[03:50:54] <danimal_garage> cool
[03:51:14] <SWPadnos> hmmm. well, I guess I should have written that with comp instead of C
[03:51:34] <SWPadnos> that way, you could have a manual, even without my writing one
[03:52:12] <SWPadnos> if you look at the demo_mazak config, you'll see how to use it
[03:52:20] <cradek> (I did a full resettable/presettable quadrature decoder in this ladder for the carousel position)
[03:52:32] <danimal_garage> ok thanks SWPadnos
[03:52:32] <pcw_home> The pinouts are fixed but you can find out where the step&dir end up with the pinout file
[03:52:33] <pcw_home> 100 KHz is pushing it + they are unsymmetrical timing wise. Good step drivers are isolated
[03:52:35] <pcw_home> so I would just drive them directly or with a differential driver if you want the best noise immunity
[03:53:20] <Valen> this is going into some AC servo motor
[03:53:28] <Valen> the controller has a step+direction mode
[03:53:41] <Valen> though I would rather run it as a servo
[03:54:58] <Valen> But I was concerned about analog drift driving it in +-10v mode
[03:55:03] <eric_unterhausen> I upgraded my version of Ubuntu and the sound doesn't work
[03:55:06] <Valen> and I would need to get a +-10v driver
[03:55:18] <Valen> eric its probably muted
[03:55:34] <pcw_home> Analog drift is fixed at the PID rate...
[03:55:36] <pcw_home> re-assignable pins has really no chance of fitting in smaller FPGAs like on the 5I20
[03:55:37] <pcw_home> wastes a lot of resources
[03:55:41] <eric_unterhausen> they changed the widget, no mute button
[03:56:23] <Valen> what are you running?
[03:56:25] <Valen> 9.10?
[03:56:29] <eric_unterhausen> yes
[03:56:42] <Valen> there seems to be an issue where if you upgrade every time you start its muted
[03:56:49] <eric_unterhausen> funny
[03:57:00] <Valen> thats just hearsay
[03:57:06] <Valen> it happened to me and to another guy
[03:57:17] <Valen> a clean install seems to work without a problem though
[03:58:34] <eric_unterhausen> the widget doesn't have a mute button, I kinda liked that
[03:58:53] <Valen> pcw_home, my concern is the controller was found at a scrap yard, it seems to be working but yaknow, I dont trust my $300 mesa card to it lol
[04:00:04] <Valen> pissing me off, same guy who got this controller, also got a 43Kw VFD for $100
[04:00:12] <Valen> and a 7Kw motor for $150
[04:00:28] <eric_unterhausen> I don't think I could power up either of those things
[04:01:05] <Valen> need some phat lines from the streets
[04:01:26] <pcw_home> Well you could try running it at low speeds through the 7I37, or just make your own 2 signal isolator
[04:01:28] <pcw_home> (If 7KW motor is a servo maybe it could be a good wind generator)
[04:02:09] <Valen> yeah, might do the isolator route, I have some 10mhz optos floating about
[04:02:24] <Valen> we are thinking of using it to electrify cars
[04:05:04] <pcw_home> The motor? 10 HP is a little low but I guess you're not making a Tesla
[04:06:05] <Valen> its 7Kw peak, so you could push 40 or 50 through it for a while
[04:06:12] <Valen> sorry 7kw continiously
[04:07:05] <Valen> would make a nice spindle though ;->
[04:14:35] <pcw_home> BTW its easy for me to make a new FPGA pinout, for simple changes only a few minutes.
[04:14:37] <pcw_home> the FPGA configuration is all "pinout driven" so only one file pinout file is changed to make a new config
[04:15:27] <Valen> but you need the "compiler" for the FPGA etc dont you?
[04:15:58] <pcw_home> its free
[04:18:26] <Valen> does seem like a lot of work to change a pinout though
[04:21:59] <mozmck> I'm using pidgin and it's popping up an error saying "No such nick or channel - kgrovxw"
[04:22:16] <mozmck> any idea why?
[04:22:33] <cradek> nope, no idea why you'd be using pidgin
[04:22:39] <cradek> (sorry)
[04:22:41] <Valen> ey I am
[04:22:41] <mozmck> It's done it a number of times with different nicks
[04:22:51] <mozmck> :) it's easy
[04:23:02] <Valen> tried empathy?
[04:23:15] <cradek> sounds like it's trying to send a privmsg, but who knows why
[04:23:17] <ries> danimal_garage: I did something wrong with my Audio, so I will do a new upload
[04:23:23] <ries> here is the youtroep video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0DZ1OUbv8g
[04:23:26] <mozmck> just briefly, seems like it wasn't as good as pidgin.
[04:23:51] <mozmck> cradek: that's what I'm wondering, like a virus or something?
[04:24:49] <Valen> I like how axis says the default program isnt intended to be actually used but its the first thing anybody cuts
[04:25:05] <Valen> ries, it'd be better without the music
[04:25:24] <ries> Valen: Hmmm... ok I can do that :)
[04:25:29] <ries> it's just white noice though ;)
[04:25:38] <mozmck> first thing I cut was the snowflake
[04:25:38] <Valen> I want to hear the machine running not some music
[04:26:01] <Valen> mozmck, well laaadedah mr fancypants ;-P
[04:26:09] <Valen> how much is the mechmate?
[04:26:52] <mozmck> :) that's because it was the only one I could get to work at the time!
[04:26:58] <Valen> lol
[04:28:38] <ries> mozmck: I don't understand that snowflake...
[04:28:51] <ries> it always cut's here sky high in teh air, while teh snowflake is a tiny little thing
[04:29:21] <ries> Valen: My wife kept track of the $$$... but in teh US you can usually build it for 4-6K USD
[04:29:27] <ries> depending what you can do yourself
[04:29:32] <danimal_garage> ries: very cool! that thing is impressive
[04:29:54] <ries> danimal_garage: it is..... I am amazed by it's sturdines
[04:30:14] <mozmck> hmmm, the snowflake was about 4 inches across on my machine.
[04:30:17] <ries> if the steppers are on... it's very hard to see some movement if you push it..
[04:30:36] <danimal_garage> nice!
[04:31:22] <ries> mozmck: I also tried to make my name with engrave... but the settings of the python script I don't understand (don't make sense....) so I might going to make a new engrave version that has some better settings... or it uses inches, I don't know....
[04:31:37] <ries> I am planning to buy a spindle once I have some money again....
[04:31:52] <ries> this router is like.... old... But seems to work nice
[04:32:02] <mozmck> I haven't seen engrave...
[04:32:34] <mozmck> looks like a very nice machine
[04:32:51] <danimal_garage> yea, really nice
[04:33:08] <danimal_garage> i wouldnt kick it out of bed for eating cookies
[04:33:14] <Valen> I want to do some engraving style stuff but our mill only does 1600RPM
[04:33:24] <Valen> any suggestions as to what bit to get for it?
[04:33:30] <danimal_garage> or even crackers for that matter. and we all know how annoying cracker crumbs can be
[04:34:18] <danimal_garage> valen: thats a bit slow for carbide engraving bits, i'm guessing the tip would crack off pretty quickly
[04:34:44] <danimal_garage> maybe something in HSS or cobalt
[04:35:03] <cradek> can you use a drag engraver at 0 RPM?
[04:35:21] <Valen> danimal, would it be ok at lower feed rates?
[04:35:23] <cradek> 1600 is much closer to 0 than the 10000 you really need :-)
[04:35:28] <Valen> I am hoping to make it fairly deep
[04:35:41] <danimal_garage> his mill wont do 0rpm, he said 1600 only :)
[04:35:47] <cradek> ha
[04:35:51] <Valen> IE run it at a feed rate suitable for the RPM
[04:35:53] <Valen> ;-P
[04:36:30] <danimal_garage> Valen: even if you get the chipload per tooth right, it'll still be iffy i think with carbide
[04:36:37] <cradek> the feed for a sharp (pointed) carbide engraving bit at 1600 rpm is about 1-2 ipm
[04:36:41] <danimal_garage> but i dont do much engraving so someone else might no better
[04:36:54] <cradek> I think danimal_garage is right and it'll just break
[04:37:00] <Valen> probably
[04:37:06] <Valen> I don't want to do heaps
[04:37:21] <Valen> HSS work you think?
[04:37:31] <danimal_garage> wont break off as quickly
[04:37:33] <cradek> what are you cutting?
[04:37:37] <Valen> its a name tag for the dog
[04:37:39] <Valen> stainless
[04:37:42] <cradek> eek
[04:37:44] <danimal_garage> ouch
[04:38:03] <danimal_garage> carbide woulsnt stand a chance in a 300 series at that rpm
[04:38:06] <Valen> 2IMP is plentt l0<
[04:38:10] <Valen> plenty
[04:39:16] <Valen> so given the job and the tools at hand, what would you suggest?
[04:39:23] <danimal_garage> 2ipm is too fast for SS
[04:39:30] <cradek> maybe aluminum is better for that? seems like it would be nice if the tag is as light as possible
[04:39:53] <Valen> nah its too soft
[04:40:01] <danimal_garage> thats what they are made of
[04:40:06] <Valen> i'm actually going to make it a part of the collar
[04:40:14] <Valen> need to replace it because the last one wore out
[04:40:23] <cradek> Valen: again I suggest a drag engraver - make one with a good stout spring and it might look better than you think
[04:41:07] <danimal_garage> agreed, that or a HSS engraver bit
[04:41:09] <Valen> I was hoping to actually make a decent cut
[04:41:16] <Valen> ~1mmx1mm or so
[04:41:22] <Valen> as in 1mm deep
[04:41:33] <danimal_garage> wow
[04:41:40] <danimal_garage> thats more milling than engraving
[04:41:50] <Valen> on the border line
[04:41:53] <danimal_garage> how wide?
[04:42:00] <Valen> ~a mm
[04:42:17] <danimal_garage> maybe a 1/32" or 1mm ball endmill
[04:42:32] <danimal_garage> plenty of coolant
[04:42:32] <danimal_garage> HSS
[04:42:35] <danimal_garage> max rpm
[04:42:42] <Valen> 1600 is max rpm lol
[04:42:44] <cradek> buy extras
[04:43:03] <Valen> lol
[04:43:07] <cradek> or make a high speed spindle!
[04:43:15] <Valen> thats on the plan
[04:43:33] <cradek> I'm pondering around plans for one for mine, and it does 6k rpm
[04:43:44] <Valen> buying the spindle or making it?
[04:43:46] <cradek> pondering around? pondering + kicking around I guess
[04:44:03] <cradek> I have a little tiny high speed spindle already - bought
[04:44:17] <Valen> ahh, we are hoping to make the motor itself
[04:44:36] <Valen> for metal work is there much point going > 6000 RPM?
[04:44:43] <cradek> for small tools YES
[04:44:48] <danimal_garage> i need new spindle bearings, so i was thinking of upgrading, and switching to a cogged belt and pulleys from the vari speed drive
[04:45:24] <danimal_garage> valen: my machine spins 4000rpm, and i have it maxed out on every aluminum part i do, even with 1/2" endmills
[04:45:35] <cradek> at 1/8" 6000 rpm is only 200 sfm
[04:45:47] <cradek> for smaller tools it's dreadfully slow
[04:46:24] <danimal_garage> sfm for carbide in aluminum is about 800-1200sfm
[04:47:02] <danimal_garage> so that means 12,000rpms for a 1/4" endmill
[04:47:11] <danimal_garage> with proper coolant of course
[04:48:04] <Valen> hmm
[04:48:34] <Valen> hard to make a spindle that'll push a 20mm facing cutter through stainless and do 12000 RPM as well
[04:48:39] <danimal_garage> the spindle needs to be balanced pretty well at that speed
[04:48:55] <danimal_garage> yea, thats why they cost $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
[04:49:05] <cradek> there are lots of them around but not cheap
[04:49:16] <cradek> every modern VMC I bet
[04:49:21] <danimal_garage> yep
[04:49:35] <danimal_garage> Haas usually runs about 15k rpms
[04:49:48] <danimal_garage> 10-15k
[04:50:03] <danimal_garage> and thats still too slow
[04:50:04] <cradek> more like 3" facing cutter, not 20mm
[04:50:23] <Valen> don't have one of those, so no need for that lol
[04:50:27] <danimal_garage> yea, 20mm is an awfully small shell mill lol
[04:50:48] <Valen> I think our largest facing cutter is 60mm
[04:51:02] <danimal_garage> 60mm is decent
[04:51:13] <cradek> that's a good size for a 40 taper machine
[04:51:28] <danimal_garage> yea
[05:24:32] <kevinh_> kevinh_ is now known as kevinh
[05:59:35] <Danimal> woo finally got my toolchanger section done for my hal. A bit of a pain decoding the sample config with the older style format
[06:00:18] <Danimal> think i got the modmath stuff right though. had to weed out all the stuff i didnt need for my app before i could understand what was going on
[08:36:39] <kevinh_> kevinh_ is now known as kevinh
[09:34:14] <kevinh_> kevinh_ is now known as kevinh
[10:29:03] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[11:18:04] <lilalinux_away> lilalinux_away is now known as lilalinux
[12:17:10] <jthornton> would the Atom 330 Intel 945GC Mini ITX Motherboard/CPU Combo be a good choice for use with the 5i20 on my Hardinge?
[13:49:45] <kevinh_> kevinh_ is now known as kevinh
[14:11:51] <SWPadnos> jthornton, sure, the atom330 boards are quite good
[14:11:56] <SWPadnos> and they have a PCI slot
[14:18:51] <jthornton> SWPadnos: good morning
[14:18:55] <jthornton> thanks
[14:18:58] <SWPadnos> sort of
[14:18:59] <SWPadnos> sure
[14:19:05] <jthornton> sort of?
[14:19:13] <Valen> jthornton I'm using one
[14:19:16] <Valen> the dual core
[14:19:20] <Valen> seems to work
[14:19:57] <SWPadnos> well, I'm about to head out to a memorial service for a friend of mine who died on Monday
[14:19:59] <jthornton> the small footprint is interesting
[14:20:05] <Valen> :-<
[14:20:05] <SWPadnos> so it's not as good as it could be
[14:20:13] <jthornton> sorry to hear that
[14:21:03] <SWPadnos> yep. he was lucky though, died in his sleep (after 6 months with a nasty brain tumor)
[14:21:57] <Valen> sucky :-<
[14:23:25] <jthornton> Valen: my dev docs computer is still perking along thanks for the help on getting it up and going last night
[14:23:35] <Valen> ey glad to help
[14:26:03] <jthornton> my original plan was to use my AMD Athlon Asus mobo in the Hardinge
[14:57:11] <kristianpaul> Heeks around?
[14:59:16] <Valen> I believe he normally hangs out in another channel?
[15:04:55] <kristianpaul> k
[16:51:34] <danimal_garage> hmmm my pc locks up when i try to load emc on the mill
[16:56:32] <micges> danimal_garage: maybe your base period is to low?
[16:57:18] <danimal_garage> was working fine before, then i did some work on the hal and now it freezes
[16:57:51] <eric_unterhausen> did the hal work include changing some threads?
[16:58:16] <danimal_garage> yea
[16:58:31] <micges> so you have answer
[16:58:45] <eric_unterhausen> I wouldn't call that an answer :)
[16:58:52] <danimal_garage> ok i'll work on narrowing it down
[16:59:32] <micges> eric_unterhausen: answer is where to look ;)
[16:59:35] <danimal_garage> i added the modmath component
[17:00:10] <eric_unterhausen> that sounds like it could be problematic
[17:00:29] <micges> I never used it
[17:01:17] <SWPadnos> that's not problematic
[17:01:21] <SWPadnos> (trust me :) )
[17:01:39] <SWPadnos> but it is possible that you were right on the edge as far as execution time goes
[17:02:06] <SWPadnos> note that modmath should probably be in the servo thread, since the motion controller and classic ladder only run at that rate
[17:03:17] <danimal_garage> well i # out all the modmath stuff and it still froze
[17:03:25] <SWPadnos> see :P
[17:03:40] <eric_unterhausen> it's not problematic but if you run it too often your computer will lock up
[17:03:48] <eric_unterhausen> spoken like a true computer scientist
[17:03:58] <SWPadnos> no, that's not what I said
[17:04:22] <SWPadnos> I said it's not a problem, then recommended that it be in the same thread as the things that depend on it - two unrelated statements
[17:04:38] <danimal_garage> everythnig is in the servo thread
[17:04:39] <eric_unterhausen> well, anything will be a problem if you run it too often
[17:04:47] <SWPadnos> yes, that's true
[17:06:04] <danimal_garage> so this would be thread related?
[17:07:06] <eric_unterhausen> you may simply be running out of time
[17:07:21] <SWPadnos> what's the base period? (and the CPU speed)
[17:07:41] <Jymmm> 4.77 MHz
[17:07:51] <SWPadnos> turbo!
[17:07:57] <eric_unterhausen> one of the newer ones!
[17:08:03] <Jymmm> no turbo =(
[17:08:54] <SWPadnos> bbl
[17:08:55] <eric_unterhausen> turbo was usually 8MHz
[17:09:12] <danimal_garage> cpu speed is 1.4ghz
[17:09:37] <danimal_garage> base period... you want me to run a latency test?
[17:09:49] <eric_unterhausen> it's not latency
[17:10:12] <danimal_garage> hey my servo period in ini is 16000 nanoseconds... does that seem off?
[17:10:22] <eric_unterhausen> yes
[17:10:28] <danimal_garage> thought so
[17:14:08] <danimal_garage> i'm not seeing base period
[17:18:40] <danimal_garage> changed the servo period to 1ms and it loads
[17:18:51] <danimal_garage> thanks guys
[17:20:51] <numen> hi
[17:20:54] <danimal_garage> not sure how that got changed
[17:21:06] <danimal_garage> hi numen
[17:51:44] <root> root is now known as Guest68614
[18:00:48] <archivist_emc> can anyone remember the youtube video where the broom catches fire sweeping the chips away, was a serious cut on a gantry mill iirc was over a year ago
[18:07:32] <Guest68614> yesyes
[18:07:44] <Guest68614> Guest68614 is now known as anonimasu
[18:09:12] <anonimasu> archivist_emc: but to find it is harder :)
[18:09:38] <archivist_emc> I cant find it at all today, been trying for ages
[18:11:12] <Jymmm> archivist_emc: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=FCQ&q=broom+fire+site%3Alinuxcnc.org&aq=f&aql=&aqi=&oq=
[18:13:53] <Jymmm> we all have a bad habit of just pasting links without description, so its hard to search for unless someone comments
[18:14:52] <archivist_emc> I found the comment so far
[18:15:23] <Jymmm> I went back 24h, and couldn't find the link
[18:15:30] <Jymmm> if you find it let us know
[18:16:21] <Jymmm> just video of the machine skunkworks stole from me
[18:19:58] <archivist_emc> found it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttZJzauH6CU&feature=related
[18:22:44] <eric_unterhausen> upgrading to 9.10 really broke flash
[18:23:01] <archivist_emc> anonimasu, you pasted the link way back then :) http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2007-12-05.txt
[18:25:45] <Danimal-office> with the counter in classicladder, i'm not understanding how to configure it so it goes 1-25, and not 0-9999
[18:25:51] <Danimal-office> 1-24*
[18:26:45] <Danimal-office> i dont understand the parameter description
[18:27:41] <Jymmm> archivist_emc: fsck the broom, 24" cutter is just sick!
[18:28:05] <Jymmm> archivist_emc: wth are they surfacing?
[18:28:24] <archivist_emc> they do say iirc
[18:28:49] <Jymmm> Well i guess i should say for what purpose
[18:28:58] <Jymmm> what needs something THAT big
[18:31:37] <bassogigas> eric_unterhausen, why upgrading? next ubuntu LTS is almost coming
[18:32:02] <eric_unterhausen> I just clicked the button :)
[18:32:04] <bassogigas> you can run the latest release of emc on 8.04 too
[18:32:09] <bassogigas> ahhh )
[18:32:24] <eric_unterhausen> this isn't my emc machine or else I would be more careful
[18:35:44] <archivist_emc> this would be interesting to retrofit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LquCErOOOso&feature=channel
[18:37:44] <Jymmm> Both Ends Simultaneos Cutting CNC Lathe
[18:38:55] <Danimal-office> that is pretty cool
[18:40:03] <Jymmm> CNC Both Ends Cutting Machine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0KdP4X_j5c&feature=channel
[18:52:31] <Jymmm> Ok, I have a 10mm diameter rod. I want to hand press fit this into a hole so that it's a snug fit (won't come out on it's own without some force). How do you determine what size hole you need ? I've never really gotten that yet.
[18:53:22] <Jymmm> I know I could just try different sized holes, but is there any kind of rule of hand to follow?
[18:53:31] <Danimal-office> material?
[18:53:40] <Danimal-office> of the rod and hole
[18:53:41] <Jymmm> plastic
[18:53:46] <Jymmm> both
[18:54:10] <Danimal-office> hmm i dont do much with plastic
[18:54:27] <Jymmm> delrin for the rod, hdpe for the hole
[18:54:30] <Danimal-office> a hammer should get it in if there's .002" interference
[18:54:36] <archivist_emc> steel is a thou plus a thou per inch interference
[18:54:42] <archivist_emc> ish
[18:54:43] <Jymmm> Has to be hand pressed
[18:54:51] <eric_unterhausen> it really depends on the precision of the parts, but that sounds like you would want equal sizing
[18:55:12] <Danimal-office> i'd start at .0005"
[18:55:14] <Jymmm> archivist_emc: say that again?
[18:55:27] <archivist_emc> steel is a thou plus a thou per inch interference
[18:55:36] <Jymmm> smartass, you know what I mean
[18:55:55] <eric_unterhausen> you mean as the length grows, there is more interference?
[18:56:00] <archivist_emc> the rest know what I mean
[18:56:06] <Jymmm> so if the rod is .500 the hole should be:
[18:56:22] <Danimal-office> as the diameter grows
[18:56:24] <archivist_emc> thats a diameter variation
[18:56:27] <Danimal-office> not the length
[18:56:38] <eric_unterhausen> ok
[18:56:42] <Jymmm> archivist_emc: The rest aren't the ones askign the question.
[18:56:51] <eric_unterhausen> I'm w/ Jymmm, that was confusing :)
[18:56:55] <Danimal-office> i understood him Jymmm
[18:57:03] <Jymmm> Danimal-office: thats great, I dont
[18:57:11] <Danimal-office> just sayin
[18:57:14] <Danimal-office> :)
[18:57:23] <frallzor> tolerance diskussion?
[18:57:24] <Jymmm> Danimal-office: Yeah, and it still doesn't help me.
[18:57:40] <eric_unterhausen> Jymmm: you probably don't have precise parts?
[18:57:43] <archivist_emc> http://www.engineersedge.com/class_iv.htm
[18:57:50] <Danimal-office> he means you start with .001 press fit, and for every inch the hole/rod is, you add .001
[18:58:30] <Danimal-office> although that seems quite a bit excessive for steel
[18:58:39] <archivist_emc> http://www.engineersedge.com/general_tolerances.htm
[18:58:41] <Jymmm> Is that a hand fit?
[18:58:48] <Danimal-office> hell no
[18:58:52] <Jymmm> or a 20ton press fit
[18:58:55] <Danimal-office> thats not even arbor press fit
[18:59:01] <eric_unterhausen> equal sizes may not be a hand fit
[18:59:11] <Jymmm> well, I did say hand fit, so that's useless.
[18:59:12] <archivist_emc> its a wont come out fit
[18:59:18] <Danimal-office> eric_unterhausen: a true net fit will go in by hand
[18:59:30] <archivist_emc> see snug fit from that url I posted
[18:59:44] <eric_unterhausen> but Jymmm is not going to make such a thing
[19:00:14] <Danimal-office> jymmm: start with .001, and you can always sand a little off the rod or ream the hole if it's too tight
[19:00:47] <andypugh> Looks a bit simpler than ISO fit standards.
[19:00:50] <Danimal-office> although on second thought, a reamer wont do crap in plastic if there's only .0005 to remove
[19:01:18] <Jymmm> There's also thermal expansion to consider
[19:01:24] <Jymmm> winter vs summer
[19:01:34] <Danimal-office> same material, same expansion
[19:01:41] <frallzor> you beat me to it =(
[19:01:49] <andypugh> http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/ISO_Tolerances/ISO_LIMITS.htm
[19:02:01] <Jymmm> not the same material - delrin and hpde like I said earlier
[19:02:14] <Danimal-office> oh
[19:02:15] <anonimasu> hm..
[19:02:25] <anonimasu> thoose toleranced dosent mean crap unless you can hold them..
[19:02:26] <andypugh> And I think that rings expand more than shafts, for the same material and the same temperature.
[19:02:28] <anonimasu> and measure them accurately
[19:02:33] <Danimal-office> what are you using to make the hole
[19:02:50] <Jymmm> end mill
[19:02:51] <frallzor> to achieve the impossible
[19:03:10] <Danimal-office> circular interp?
[19:03:35] <Jymmm> but I might just get the correct size drill bit once I've determined what that is
[19:03:52] <andypugh> An end mill will make a truer hole than a frill
[19:03:56] <archivist_emc> plain drills wont work
[19:04:03] <Danimal-office> can you test fit in the machine?
[19:04:08] <anonimasu> you can always buy the correct size of drill + suitable reamer
[19:04:09] <andypugh> Or even a drill. In fact, don't use frills, useless.
[19:04:33] <Danimal-office> not sure what a reamer is gunna do in plastic
[19:04:49] <Jymmm> these wouldn't be "plain" drill bits
[19:04:51] <andypugh> What size hole? And is this on a milling machine?
[19:04:56] <Danimal-office> 10mm
[19:05:04] <archivist_emc> you need more interference with softer material
[19:05:40] <anonimasu> Danimal-office: make the holes to size..
[19:06:00] <archivist_emc> hand assembly includes a "Bummagem screwdiver"
[19:06:09] <archivist_emc> brummagem
[19:06:11] <andypugh> Do you have a boring head? That's the way to make good holes on a mill. (10mm should be doable)
[19:06:17] <Danimal-office> Jymmm's doing it, not me
[19:07:39] <Danimal-office> i think you'll need somewhere between .0005-.001 interference
[19:07:40] <Jymmm> Coefficient of Linear Thermal Expansion
[19:07:40] <Jymmm> (10 exp-6 )in/in/C
[19:07:42] <Jymmm> 59 to 110 (10 x exp –6) in/in /C
[19:07:44] <Jymmm> 0.000 059 to 0.000 110 in/in /C
[19:07:45] <andypugh> (And mill boring is a lot less tedious with CNC doing the up-and-down-and pause to adjust
[19:07:46] <Jymmm> HDPE
[19:08:09] <Jymmm> So drilling in winter and summer are going to be different.
[19:08:24] <anonimasu> sounds like fun :D
[19:10:33] <Jymmm> I might even have to change the drilling pattern so a hole one the left side is drilled, ten another hole on the right side is drilled, giving the material a chance to cool down on the left side.
[19:11:06] <Danimal-office> so can anyone help me with my ladder question? i'm using a counter, but i need it to go from 1-24, and loop around infintely. is there a parameter for the counter that does that, or do i need a compare or operate block or something?
[19:11:07] <anonimasu> hm..
[19:11:24] <anonimasu> Jymmm: what about sticking them in a box with silica dessicant
[19:11:38] <anonimasu> to keep the material from absorbing mositure
[19:12:12] <Jymmm> anonimasu: Not so much moisture as muc as the drilling process will generate heat
[19:12:17] <archivist_emc> Danimal-office, reset the counter at a value ?
[19:12:45] <anonimasu> Jymmm: yeah, but that wont change over winter/summer
[19:13:07] <Jymmm> anonimasu: As far as dessicant, I can't have that around here, I have birds and it's leathal for them.
[19:13:13] <Danimal-office> how does that work for when i'm going in reverse (so 22,23,24,1,2..etc)
[19:13:41] <archivist_emc> Danimal-office, reset the counter to 25 at 0
[19:14:09] <Danimal-office> so i would use a compare block?
[19:14:20] <archivist_emc> preset the counter I mean
[19:14:27] <Danimal-office> yea
[19:14:30] <archivist_emc> yes I think so
[19:14:44] <Danimal-office> ok, just wanted to make sure i wasnt doing it the hard way
[19:15:24] <Jymmm> anonimasu: No, but the heat geneated in just drilling a single hole will expand the surrounding material a bit, so it might make the next hole too tight once it cools down.
[19:15:34] <Jymmm> or loose depending
[19:15:55] <Danimal-office> there wasnt a description of the parameters for the counter in the manual, so i wasnt really follwing what they mean
[19:16:07] <Danimal-office> thanks archivist
[19:16:08] <anonimasu> Jymmm: how much does it cost you to fuck up a part?
[19:16:27] <Danimal-office> delrin aint cheap
[19:16:36] <andypugh> Cheaper than Vespel
[19:16:40] <Jymmm> anonimasu: A LOT as I have to drill like 300 holes per part
[19:17:06] <archivist_emc> Danimal-office, I have not read the ladder docs, usual disclaimers apply :)
[19:17:37] <jthornton> Danimal-office: hook up some pyvcp buttons to your counter so you can see what each does
[19:18:37] <Danimal-office> jthornton: not a bad idea
[19:20:42] <anonimasu> Jymmm: if your tolerances are so critical wont clamping make your holes out of round?
[19:21:14] <Jymmm> anonimasu: clamping what exactly?
[19:21:18] <anonimasu> the piece
[19:21:29] <Jymmm> anonimasu: to he machien you mean?
[19:21:38] <anonimasu> yep
[19:21:48] <Jymmm> anonimasu: vaccuum holddown
[19:21:53] <Danimal-office> not till you remove the part
[19:22:06] <Danimal-office> then BOING!!!!!
[19:22:48] <Danimal-office> any way to stress relieve it before drilling?
[19:23:06] <Danimal-office> probably not
[19:23:31] <jthornton> a beer usually stress relives me before drilling :)
[19:23:37] <Danimal-office> ha
[19:26:03] <anonimasu> atleast with delrin I've never had a problem with stuff moving
[19:26:35] <Jymmm> anonimasu: it's not the delrin that's the issue as much as the HDPE
[19:26:51] <anonimasu> oh yeah
[19:27:39] <anonimasu> dont you have to watch out so the acetal wont get hot, as it releases formaldehyde...
[19:27:48] <anonimasu> (for the birds)
[19:28:47] <Jymmm> anonimasu: The garage is sepearate fromt eh house, it's just tracking in material on shoes, clothes, etc that I have to worry about.
[19:28:59] <Danimal-office> drilling 300 holes in anything is bound to remove some stress if the part had some in it originally, causing it to move when removed from it's constrained position after machining
[19:29:31] <Danimal-office> and if it heats up too much durring machining, you'll be putting stress into it
[19:30:35] <Danimal-office> although that'll depend on hoe much material is left between the holes and whatnot
[19:30:45] <Danimal-office> more if an issue if they're thru holes
[19:35:56] <Jymmm> and they are =)
[19:39:17] <Danimal-office> might be worth it to order a small piece of material to test your press fit
[19:39:42] <Danimal-office> considering what you have to loose
[19:41:23] <Danimal-office> there's just too many variables for us to give you an answer, like your wall thickness around the holes, depth of the hole, tollerance of the rod, tollerance your machine can hold, etc
[19:42:44] <archivist_emc> so try it and see
[19:42:52] <Danimal-office> yep
[20:28:05] <Danimal-office> ok wish me luck, i think i got my ladder done on paper for the mill toolchanger
[20:32:07] <Jymmm> what is this thing you speak of... "Paper" ?
[20:36:03] <toastydeath> i think i've seen it once
[20:36:08] <toastydeath> It was whitish, and very thin
[20:36:17] <toastydeath> if only there was a way to make it display things, it could be revolutionary
[20:36:55] <danimal_garage> I wanna devise a virus, to bring dire straits to your enviroment. Crush your corporations with a mild touch, Trash your whole computer system and revert you to papyrus.
[20:37:16] <toastydeath> i read "dire straits" and thought, why would you want everyone's computer to play money for nothing
[20:37:22] <danimal_garage> haha
[20:37:34] <Jymmm> ditto
[20:37:35] <toastydeath> which would be a pretty good virus, all things considered
[20:37:47] <toastydeath> WE GOT TO INSTALL MICROWAVE OVENS
[20:37:48] <toastydeath> etc
[20:37:55] <danimal_garage> apparently noone listens to del
[20:41:10] <andypugh> del Amitri?
[20:42:25] <danimal_garage> del the funky homosapien
[20:42:38] <archivist_emc> del boy
[20:44:25] <andypugh> I prefer Archivist's version
[20:51:34] <danimal_garage> shitstain. I just went out to take a wiz and found a shingle on the ground
[20:51:57] <danimal_garage> cant tell if it's mine or the neighbor's, but i think it's mine
[20:52:08] <danimal_garage> time to go on the roof i guess
[20:56:44] <kevinh_> kevinh_ is now known as kevinh
[21:09:38] <danimal_garage> hmmmm i dont think preset can be used to preset more than one value on the ladder counter
[21:10:10] <cradek> true but I bet you can load it with -[Counter.V=123]-
[21:10:26] <cradek> or maybe it's spelled ,V - I don't remember for sure
[21:10:37] <danimal_garage> ahhhhh
[21:10:59] <danimal_garage> it is writable, huh
[21:11:05] <cradek> I'm guessing
[21:11:32] <jthornton> when you reach the preset value the done bit comes on
[21:11:33] <danimal_garage> for some reason i had it in my mind that it was read only
[21:11:40] <andypugh> Do any houses in the US use a proper roofing material? Like rocks?
[21:12:22] <danimal_garage> i dont want a rock roof, when my house collapses due to a huge earthquake, i'd rather have my roof made of feathers and baloons
[21:13:00] <andypugh> A fair point. The 50 tons of stone slabs on my parent's roof is occasional cause for concern.
[21:13:03] <andypugh> http://www.bodgesoc.org/roof2.jpg
[21:13:28] <danimal_garage> yea, and i live in southern california, we have earthquakes fairly often
[21:13:44] <andypugh> I think we had one once.
[21:14:28] <andypugh> But it was about magnitude 2 and before I was born.
[21:14:55] <danimal_garage> Cxx.P : Counter xx preset (integer, read or write)
[21:15:07] <danimal_garage> i was just doing it wrong
[21:16:04] <danimal_garage> ok i have high hopes for this ladder
[21:21:34] <jthornton> damm that comparison statement is pickey
[21:21:36] <jthornton> picky
[21:23:15] <jthornton> danimal_garage: did you get the counter to roll around?
[21:26:30] <danimal_garage> i think so
[21:27:01] <danimal_garage> still inputting the stuff
[21:27:25] <jthornton> I have an example of a wrapping counter that does not exceed the preset if you need it
[21:32:02] <danimal_garage> cool, appreciate it
[21:33:36] <jthornton> one sec
[21:35:14] <jt-dev> danimal_garage: http://imagebin.ca/view/rCuyDN.html
[21:36:09] <jthornton> the comparison resets if you exceed the preset and the %Q2 sets the counter at the preset if you have an underflow (counting down)
[21:37:05] <jthornton> so counting up it will do 0 1 2 3 4 5 0 1 and down will do 0 5 4 3 2 1 0 5
[21:58:31] <danimal_garage> jthornton: any way to have it start with 1?
[21:59:05] <jthornton> not that I know of why?
[21:59:27] <danimal_garage> my tool numbers start from 1
[22:00:19] <danimal_garage> i guess i can do --[%c0.v+1]----------------------[actual tool number out]-
[22:00:22] <jthornton> in your compare just compare your tool number to the counter value + 1 or the other way around
[22:00:44] <danimal_garage> hey great minds think alike
[22:00:52] <jthornton> LOL
[22:02:18] <danimal_garage> thanks for the counter
[22:02:40] <danimal_garage> the way i have it now is:
[22:02:46] <jthornton> np, it will be in a manual near you soon :)
[22:03:45] <danimal_garage> -[%co.v=25]---------------------------[%co.p=1]--
[22:04:18] <danimal_garage> and: -[%c0.v=0]----------------------[%c0.p=24]-
[22:04:34] <danimal_garage> would that work too?
[22:04:53] <jthornton> that works too, I assume it is a compare ---- assign on the rungs
[22:05:52] <danimal_garage> yea, when the counter reaches 25, it presets to 1, and when it reaches zero, it presets to 24
[22:06:07] <danimal_garage> or at least thats how i'm expecting it to work
[22:06:24] <danimal_garage> so in theory it'll wrap around
[22:06:27] <jthornton> * jthornton wanders back out to the shop to find the secret decoder push words that jepler taught me the other day
[22:06:48] <jthornton> I missed that you are changing the preset and don't think you will get what you expect
[22:06:58] <danimal_garage> oh ok
[22:06:58] <jthornton> change the value not the preset
[22:07:08] <danimal_garage> ok
[22:07:10] <danimal_garage> will do
[22:07:14] <danimal_garage> thanks
[22:07:18] <jthornton> np
[22:07:31] <jthornton> I'm a PLC kind of guy in real life
[22:07:34] <andypugh> Any suggestions for what to do with servos with noisy bearings?
[22:08:10] <andypugh> I am considering levering out the seals and inserting new grease.
[22:08:56] <andypugh> New bearings would be better, but I have heard that disassembling servos demagnetises the rotor.
[22:09:25] <danimal_garage> grease should help
[22:09:39] <danimal_garage> be careful with the seals
[22:09:42] <danimal_garage> obviously
[22:10:00] <danimal_garage> it would be best if you can get the old dried up grease out
[22:10:01] <andypugh> (Plus it looks like they might be pressed and bonded together, and I am concerned that I am not sure how the encoders fit and remove
[22:10:29] <andypugh> Actually, I should have said "shields" not seals.
[22:10:56] <andypugh> Though I think that I could, in theory, remove the shields and fit seals from some other bearings.
[22:11:13] <danimal_garage> at least on one side
[22:11:26] <andypugh> Plan A is to just see how noisy they are in service.
[22:11:45] <jt-plasma> wear ear plugs :P
[22:11:45] <andypugh> Actually, plan A is to just run with the perfectly adequate steppers
[22:12:02] <frallzor> 480 N.mm min whats that in Nm?
[22:12:21] <andypugh> .48
[22:12:35] <frallzor> that doesnt seem right
[22:12:48] <andypugh> is that "min" part of the units?
[22:12:48] <frallzor> cant see how that would pull a mechmate
[22:12:51] <frallzor> minute
[22:12:53] <frallzor> i think
[22:13:05] <frallzor> no minimum
[22:13:12] <archivist_emc> danimal_garage, if there is a full compliment of logic available preset to 1 as you would preset to 25
[22:13:32] <frallzor> max is 9.5
[22:14:15] <andypugh> 9.5Nm is a fair bit, .5Nm isn't. Is this a stepper?
[22:14:29] <frallzor> yes
[22:15:00] <frallzor> http://www.motionking.com/Products/Hybrid_Stepper_Motors/34HS_Stepper_Motor_86mm_1.8degree.htm?ID=12&fenlei_id=2&products=34HS%20Stepper%20Motor%20-86mm(1.8%20degree)%20 check this
[22:15:03] <andypugh> is it 9.5Nm at 10rpm and .48 at 3000rpm?
[22:15:11] <frallzor> that will explain =)
[22:15:13] <frallzor> I hope
[22:15:56] <andypugh> It's N.cm
[22:16:16] <andypugh> 480N.cm is 4.8Nm
[22:16:38] <frallzor> and 9.5 lower then?
[22:17:04] <andypugh> It actually makes no sense
[22:17:37] <andypugh> Ah, hang on
[22:18:05] <frallzor> *hanging*
[22:18:21] <andypugh> Low detente torque is good, that is 9.5 N.cm, or 0.095Nm
[22:18:54] <frallzor> which means... :P
[22:18:56] <andypugh> High holding torque is good, that is minimum 490N.cm, 4.9Nm
[22:19:33] <andypugh> The quote the minimum of the thing you want lots of, and the maximum of the thing you want least of. Which is as it should be
[22:20:03] <andypugh> Detente torque is the torque needed to move the motor unpowered (largely irrelevant)
[22:20:27] <andypugh> However, what drivers do you have?
[22:20:27] <frallzor> ahhh
[22:20:40] <frallzor> none yet, planning on G302V
[22:21:12] <frallzor> *203 =)
[22:21:30] <andypugh> I think that all the Gecko drives are Bipolar, those are Unipolar motors
[22:22:22] <andypugh> Though, I don't think they know what they are selling, as an 8-wire unipolar motor can be wired to be bipolar in two different ways.
[22:22:43] <andypugh> (low current, low speed, or high current, high speed)
[22:23:05] <frallzor> but high speed = less torque right?
[22:23:46] <andypugh> More torque at high speed. Probably the same torque at low speed, but the question is whether your drives can handle the current
[22:24:01] <frallzor> G203V does 7A
[22:24:17] <jthornton> * jthornton likes his G203V's
[22:24:28] <jthornton> smooth and fast for the plasma
[22:24:49] <andypugh> I am not sure how you convert unipolar current to bipolar
[22:24:50] <frallzor> will the current be any different when wired bipolar?
[22:24:59] <jthornton> * jthornton wanders back to the shop
[22:25:31] <frallzor> my old build with G540 and wired 8 > 4 didnt seem to mind
[22:25:33] <andypugh> Depends how you wire
[22:26:04] <andypugh> If you wire series then the current will be half stated. If you wire parallel then the current will be twice stated
[22:27:42] <andypugh> You will see that there are 3 motors with the same size, torque etc, but three different current ratings, resistances and inductances
[22:27:43] <frallzor> http://catalog.orientalmotor.com/item/stepping-motors--1068/pk-series-stepping-motors/pk296a1a-sg7-2?&plpver=11&origin=keyword&by=prod&filter=0 care to shed some light on these then? =)
[22:27:54] <frallzor> yes that I see and dont understand =)
[22:29:24] <andypugh> Forget the geared motors, I would say. They are very expensive for a start, and will introduce backlash
[22:29:48] <frallzor> well the plan was to get those actually
[22:30:11] <frallzor> but then I cam across these motionking ones that ries is using on his mechmate
[22:30:15] <frallzor> *came
[22:30:20] <andypugh> Back to the first set of motors: You need to create a certain strength of magnetic field to get your torque. Field is proportional to current x number of turns
[22:31:16] <andypugh> So, you can get the same torque with a few low resistance, high-current turns, or lots of low current. high resistance turns.
[22:32:20] <andypugh> However, inductance depends on the number of turns, and not the resistance. So the lower number of turns option will give the same torque at a higher current, but will have a lower inductance
[22:32:34] <andypugh> How much do you know about inductance?
[22:32:43] <frallzor> not a damn think =)
[22:32:46] <frallzor> *thing
[22:33:13] <andypugh> OK, Inductance is what makes the sparks in your car engine. (if it is petrol, at least).
[22:33:57] <jt-plasma> danimal_garage: you get your counter working?
[22:34:09] <frallzor> ah
[22:34:19] <andypugh> Given a coil of wire of a certain inductance, the voltage across the coil is the current x resistance in the normal way, plus the inductance x the rate of change of current
[22:34:49] <frallzor> I see
[22:35:07] <andypugh> So, in an ignition coil, you break the circuit, the current drops very, very, fast, and the inductance makes a very large voltage.
[22:35:42] <frallzor> asswipe
[22:36:06] <andypugh> Why this matters is that we are effected by the reverse effect in a stepper motor. We need a large voltage to make the current change quickly.
[22:36:31] <frallzor> ah
[22:36:58] <andypugh> So, to make a stepper run fast with enough current to make the magnetic field, and hance the torque we need, you want a very high voltage and a very low inductance
[22:38:11] <frallzor> so pretty much, choose the low inductance one and feed with as much voltage it can take with the driver?
[22:38:24] <frallzor> if it all sums up well
[22:39:14] <andypugh> Pretty much, but then you need to be sure that your driver can provide the current
[22:39:45] <frallzor> do a simple U= RI?
[22:39:48] <frallzor> or more to it?
[22:40:09] <andypugh> And then there is the matter of how much heat is produced in the motor (that's current squared x resistanc)
[22:41:19] <andypugh> So, taking those motors, and assuming you can wire either of them series or parallel, what do you get?
[22:42:07] <frallzor> you lost me
[22:42:35] <archivist_emc> steppers keep the room warm!
[22:43:15] <DaViruz> in soviet russia, there is no such thing as waste heat
[22:43:30] <toastydeath> in soviet russia, there is no such thing as YOU
[22:43:43] <andypugh> 34HS9801 is either a 2 Amp 2 Ohm 8 milliHenry motor producing 8W of heat...
[22:43:45] <DaViruz> that is quite accurate actually
[22:44:34] <andypugh> or a 8A 0.5Ohm, 2 mH motor producing 32W of heat
[22:45:16] <frallzor> so feeding it 7A would be pretty decent then?
[22:45:23] <andypugh> But it will run a lot faster in the second configuration, and make more torque at all speeds, but especially high speed
[22:46:00] <frallzor> since steppers never really use the full stated current anyway if Im remembering wrong
[22:46:12] <frallzor> *if im not :P
[22:46:47] <andypugh> Probably. But then the 2A in the first case is just the rated current, your driver can go a lot higher than that with enough voltage available.
[22:47:30] <frallzor> which stepper did you calcute from btw?
[22:47:35] <frallzor> as you said, 3 of each
[22:48:04] <andypugh> There are three very similar ones, 34HS9801/2/3
[22:48:26] <frallzor> with some slight differences like inductance and such
[22:48:31] <andypugh> Yes.
[22:49:43] <andypugh> Ah, I got my inductance calcs wrong.
[22:49:49] <andypugh> From the same site:
[22:49:50] <andypugh> http://www.motionking.com/support/unipolar_bipolar.htm
[22:50:42] <andypugh> Take each motor, calculate inductance and resistance in each configuration.
[22:51:14] <andypugh> Then calculate the power dissipated at your 7A driver current (which is pretty much fixed)
[22:51:15] <frallzor> What was my question of origin? :P
[22:51:45] <andypugh> I have forgotten, that was 2 glasses ago
[22:52:23] <frallzor> do i want BI parallell?
[22:53:25] <andypugh> Read that page I just linked to carefully, and you should be able to make up your own mind
[22:55:40] <andypugh> It is possibly worth taking the motors with the torque you want and putting it all into Excel to see what the final inductance and power dissipation (7A squared x resistance) is. Then find the best balance between low inductance and a power dissipation close to the rated Unipolar spec (rated current squared x unipolar resistance)
[22:56:31] <frallzor> I have no idea what Im doing or calculating right now =)
[22:56:46] <frallzor> but hey, im doing it
[22:56:52] <andypugh> (Argh! I am doing it again, acting like some sort of expert, when all I am doing is recycling stuff I have read on this very same channel over the last year)
[22:57:28] <archivist_emc> its how you learn :)
[22:58:27] <frallzor> 00.00 here, not the best time for me to concentrate
[22:58:36] <frallzor> and its saturday :P
[22:59:43] <frallzor> the typical "I read it but its all just black letters to me"
[23:00:39] <danimal_garage> frallzor: welcome to the club, i'm JUST starting to make sense of some of those black letters
[23:00:55] <danimal_garage> it's like trying to read russian to me
[23:01:20] <frallzor> so.. why dont I want geared motors?
[23:01:41] <frallzor> thats sounds wrong....
[23:01:43] <andypugh> Well, reading their little table: if Bipolar Parallel is current x 1.4 then 34HS9802 is perfect.
[23:01:59] <frallzor> my thought exactly
[23:02:12] <frallzor> other values = is the same
[23:02:19] <andypugh> I thought it might be
[23:02:41] <frallzor> so if other values = good then it should be fine with G203V
[23:03:03] <andypugh> In most stepper systems people seem to run out of speed before they run out of force
[23:03:24] <frallzor> ill ask my other Q tomorrow :P
[23:03:38] <frallzor> how big of a stepper in that list could I pull with G203V :P
[23:03:44] <frallzor> need one thats strong for Z
[23:04:00] <jt-plasma> danimal_garage: you get your counter sorted out?
[23:04:40] <andypugh> I have 2.5Nm motors on my lathe/mill and they are marginal on large diameter drilling in lathe mode, but perfectly good otherwise, ie the lathe tool can stall the spindle and the milling feeds can break birs
[23:04:59] <andypugh> (bits)
[23:05:15] <frallzor> im going to have 100N force straight down with some help of a gas spring to hold it
[23:05:35] <andypugh> 100N sounds low.
[23:05:38] <frallzor> so I guess I need a pretty decent one
[23:05:55] <frallzor> its 10kg just hanging
[23:06:00] <andypugh> What leadscrew?
[23:06:06] <frallzor> none, thats the twist =)
[23:06:10] <frallzor> rack and pinion
[23:06:18] <andypugh> OK, what pinion diameter?
[23:06:32] <Danimal-office> jt-plasma: still working on the ladder....took a lunch break
[23:07:17] <frallzor> looking
[23:07:25] <jt-plasma> just think of the preset
[23:07:38] <Jymmm> jthornton: These are FROZEN, GOOD SHIT --> http://www.pillsbury.com/products/biscuits/frozen/Grands-Frozen-Biscuits.htm
[23:07:45] <jt-plasma> preset's only function is to turn on the output if it is equal to the value
[23:07:52] <Danimal-office> yea, i think its sorted out, i just cant test it till i finish the ladder
[23:08:14] <andypugh> Those aren't biscuits! They are scones!
[23:08:18] <jt-plasma> put some test button in :)
[23:08:31] <frallzor> of course I cant find the info now =)
[23:08:39] <Danimal-office> well the ladder is almost done
[23:08:39] <andypugh> Guess?
[23:08:47] <jt-plasma> cool
[23:09:02] <Danimal-office> i'll finish the ladder before i get the buttons in there
[23:09:03] <frallzor> 20-30mm?
[23:09:08] <frallzor> 20 teeth maybe
[23:09:10] <frallzor> module 1
[23:09:22] <andypugh> OK, lest say 30mm dia. That's 15mm radius
[23:09:45] <andypugh> 20 teeth mod 1 is 20mm diameter
[23:10:01] <andypugh> That's the way it works :-)
[23:10:08] <frallzor> I recall it being 20 teeth at least
[23:10:28] <andypugh> But lests stick with 15mm radius as it is pessimistic
[23:11:07] <andypugh> 5Nm / 0.015 diameter is 333Nm force
[23:11:51] <frallzor> so it can pull 233Nm upwards
[23:12:04] <andypugh> If it is 20mm dia then you have 500N
[23:12:32] <frallzor> if the spindle is 33.3kg it would just hang then?
[23:12:38] <andypugh> Yes
[23:12:52] <frallzor> so with the 5Nm motor it will easily move
[23:13:02] <andypugh> I reckon so.
[23:13:08] <frallzor> and with a gasspring helping to ease the load it will move even better
[23:13:30] <frallzor> rather use more force to push it down than up
[23:13:39] <andypugh> I am not sure you want the gas spring. How often do you cut upwards?
[23:13:52] <frallzor> but I dont want plunging :)
[23:14:02] <frallzor> imagine the power being cut
[23:14:03] <andypugh> Let the weight help with drilling etc
[23:14:32] <andypugh> Ah, yes. I have leadscrews so it is not an issue
[23:14:37] <frallzor> exactly
[23:15:12] <andypugh> Perhaps you need the detente torque after all.
[23:15:43] <frallzor> naaaw, will the small amount there is be enough?
[23:15:56] <andypugh> Not without the gearmotor.
[23:16:14] <andypugh> (see how I subtly changed stance there, without anyone noticing)
[23:16:36] <frallzor> well using a geared motor with the Z would work
[23:16:46] <frallzor> enought force down to keep it ok maybe
[23:16:50] <frallzor> and not backlash
[23:17:47] <andypugh> 10mm dia x 1000 rpm = 31 m.min That's a very fast Z
[23:18:02] <andypugh> (sorry 10mm radius)
[23:18:59] <andypugh> 3m/min is quite fast enough for a Z, and that would suggest a 10:1 gearbox wouldn't hurt
[23:19:14] <frallzor> or bigger pinion?
[23:19:44] <frallzor> issue is I have to order that stuff from different places =/
[23:19:50] <frallzor> and that will bite me in the ass
[23:20:13] <frallzor> unless motionking doesnt carry similiar geared ones
[23:20:43] <andypugh> Smaller pinion for less speed and more torque
[23:20:54] <frallzor> ah
[23:20:56] <frallzor> my bad
[23:21:05] <frallzor> but smaller than that. nah?
[23:22:54] <andypugh> That Oriental gearmotor is 44 oz.in? It is a 1A per phase motor, with a 7:1 reduction. Which sounds an awful lot like a 7A motor with no reduction...
[23:23:24] <andypugh> It is also rather expensive, I reckon
[23:23:33] <frallzor> $200+
[23:23:44] <andypugh> Where are you again?
[23:23:54] <frallzor> Sweden
[23:24:06] <frallzor> got the girls, not the steppers
[23:24:18] <andypugh> Didn't I find you a servo motor place just down the road?
[23:24:36] <frallzor> no
[23:24:43] <andypugh> Ah, no, that was the Canadian.
[23:24:45] <archivist_emc> send the girls we can send steppers
[23:24:57] <frallzor> could have been DaViruz
[23:25:05] <frallzor> he likes servos and is swedish too
[23:25:11] <andypugh> I have two steppers and a 2 servos you can have.
[23:25:20] <andypugh> (For a suitable girl)
[23:25:32] <frallzor> will a 12yo virgin do?
[23:25:37] <frallzor> (neighbour)
[23:25:48] <andypugh> No. I want 40 years old and knowledgable.
[23:27:58] <andypugh> 44 oz in is 12N.in = 311N.mm = 0.3Nm
[23:28:13] <andypugh> Is that right?
[23:28:21] <frallzor> that seems wrong =)
[23:28:51] <frallzor> but I cant tell
[23:29:29] <andypugh> web search says...
[23:29:29] <andypugh> Ounce-inchesNewton-meters0.007062
[23:29:57] <andypugh> So, 4oz.in is 0.33Nm
[23:30:07] <andypugh> (44 Oz in I mean)
[23:30:07] <frallzor> seems little?
[23:30:14] <andypugh> It does.
[23:30:21] <andypugh> Seems very little for $274
[23:30:23] <cradek> You have: 44 oz in gravity
[23:30:23] <cradek> You want: newton meter
[23:30:28] <cradek> * 0.31070828
[23:30:56] <frallzor> its nice how every manufacturer uses a single standard way of writing out the info =)
[23:30:58] <frallzor> NOT!
[23:31:36] <andypugh> No, wait, it's lb.in for holding torque, the oz.in was the rotor intertia
[23:31:51] <andypugh> 5.3Nm
[23:32:23] <andypugh> So, that geared motor has almost exactly the same torque as the direct-drive motors
[23:32:40] <andypugh> But less speed, and less current.
[23:33:30] <andypugh> What you really want is the 5Nm motor, a 10:1 reduction and then your drive pinion.
[23:33:49] <andypugh> Then you can crush small countries with your Z axis
[23:34:16] <frallzor> cant think of an easy way to get 10:1
[23:35:18] <andypugh> http://www.hpcgears.com/newpdf/double_spur_gears_1.0_1.25mod.pdf
[23:35:52] <andypugh> Actually, You don't even need that.
[23:36:15] <frallzor> but that needs custommade "gearbox" and such = much more money? =/
[23:36:42] <andypugh> Money? No, but perhaps time
[23:37:09] <frallzor> well doing that by hand cant be an option (drilling, milling and such? )
[23:37:27] <frallzor> or?
[23:37:29] <andypugh> Why not? That's all gearbox manufacturers do
[23:38:18] <frallzor> they dont use machined parts to just assemble?
[23:38:20] <andypugh> Though I am not sure what working equipment you have available
[23:38:32] <frallzor> at best, hand drill =)
[23:38:48] <frallzor> band saw for wood too :P
[23:39:03] <frallzor> and the commons non-electric stuffs
[23:40:21] <andypugh> Marking out, centre punching and careful drilling can give you 0.2mm centre spacing accuracy. (or better, if you get lucky). That would be good enough to make a machine to make a better job...
[23:40:48] <frallzor> would the 7.2:1 cut it too?
[23:41:41] <andypugh> That little gearmotor? Why bother, just go direct drive and spend less time waiting for homing
[23:42:05] <andypugh> (Not that I know how mush those non geared motors cost)
[23:42:25] <frallzor> didnt you say they were equal?
[23:42:50] <andypugh> Torque-wise yes, but speed-wise, not at all
[23:43:36] <frallzor> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nPUuqPKtYc this is ries mechmate, he is using those motionking motors
[23:46:03] <andypugh> Use them then :-) That works
[23:48:38] <ries> frallzor: yup... I am planning to build a 3:1 beld drive though...
[23:48:42] <ries> But this works
[23:48:54] <andypugh> He is using the 9801, which was my suggestion too.
[23:49:46] <andypugh> Or go for the 5801 and then you can laugh at his weedy machine (though that would probably end up being slower)
[23:49:56] <frallzor> 5801? :P
[23:50:41] <ries> The 5801 would need a much bigger power supply, and properly teh Gecko's cannot handle such a voltage
[23:50:53] <ries> so, I would not go for teh 5801
[23:51:09] <andypugh> I have progressively increased the motor sizes on my machine, but actually the littlest motor remaining, on the smallest leadscrew (8mm) is the one that performs best
[23:51:37] <ries> andypugh: That's the advice the is on the MM forum as well, bigger is not always better
[23:51:46] <ries> in this case it's better to get the right size
[23:52:07] <frallzor> might aswell shoot for 4 of those 9801 then
[23:53:16] <andypugh> 5801 is the same rated current, but a much bigger inductance (slower). As long as you have more than 2.4R x 7A = 17V then the Gecko will drive it, though.
[23:53:17] <ries> frallzor: buy 5... in case you want to build that indexer ;)
[23:54:09] <ries> andypugh: We use the calculation sqrt(9.1)*32 so you need 96VDC
[23:54:32] <ries> Mind are sqrt(4.1)*32= max 64V
[23:54:50] <frallzor> but thats just to max it? less voltage = less speed?
[23:54:58] <ries> but currently drive them with 59V
[23:55:06] <ries> and less torque
[23:55:17] <ries> I drive them with 59, no worries, that will be fine
[23:55:27] <frallzor> my issue is only with Z
[23:55:32] <ries> My transformer is 42Vac
[23:55:40] <andypugh> Yeah, that was what I was saying. The 5801 motor will work at 17V, but they will be very slow indeed
[23:55:49] <ries> frallzor: use the same engine for all axis..
[23:56:03] <ries> My is currently hold by one of these engines just fine
[23:56:21] <frallzor> how much did they set you back then?
[23:56:31] <frallzor> in terms of money =)
[23:57:13] <frallzor> and which version of the 9801 did you get
[23:57:28] <andypugh> So, why are you using racks rather than toothed belts anyway?
[23:57:45] <ries> frallzor: these engines are 50USD each
[23:57:51] <frallzor> oh my
[23:57:58] <frallzor> thats a hell of a difference
[23:58:10] <andypugh> (There is only one 9801, it is just that the 9802 and 9803 have the same torque specs)
[23:58:12] <ries> andypugh: They use racks because it's cheaper, and for teh work that needs to be done it's precise enough
[23:58:32] <andypugh> I am surprised that is is cheaper.
[23:58:50] <andypugh> I thought belts were cheaper (but less rigid)
[23:58:55] <ries> andypugh: I have seen people engraving printed circuit board on the MM... although not as perfect as a small mill, it did work
[23:58:57] <frallzor> my bad :P
[23:59:14] <frallzor> might be that they used the geared motors?
[23:59:19] <frallzor> the backlash
[23:59:42] <frallzor> how does one order from motionking?
[23:59:44] <ries> andypugh: People uses beld drives because it has less backslash then geared motors
[23:59:56] <ries> frallzor: call them/mail them..... I have a mail address