#emc | Logs for 2010-01-11

[00:00:25] <archivist_emc> andypugh, I have the OS250 manual
[00:00:39] <andypugh> Does it cover fixing duff channels?
[00:01:23] <dan1mal> about 2.5k... does that sound right?
[00:01:33] <dan1mal> same for both drives
[00:01:44] <cradek> should be 18k unless something is interfering
[00:01:47] <archivist_emc> andypugh, just checking if its already scanned
[00:01:53] <cradek> ok, must have other stuff in series
[00:01:58] <dan1mal> my meter may be off
[00:02:01] <cradek> hmmm
[00:02:22] <cradek> I'm tempted to disable the overvoltage sensing and see if it comes up. we KNOW it's not overvoltage.
[00:02:24] <dan1mal> 0 ohms in the opposite direction
[00:02:45] <dan1mal> yea
[00:02:46] <cradek> yeah that's not real then
[00:02:53] <cradek> you'd have to pull a lead to test it
[00:03:02] <cradek> should we try that? I think I see how to just disable it
[00:03:08] <dan1mal> yea, diode is screwing the reverse reading up
[00:03:19] <dan1mal> yea lets do it
[00:03:25] <archivist_emc> andypugh, no not scanned, the manuals just had a diagram and description for those, user had to think :)
[00:03:29] <cradek> one sec
[00:03:54] <andypugh> Hmm, I am not sure I can remember how to thik.
[00:04:14] <skunworks> logger_emc: bookmark
[00:04:14] <skunworks> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2010-01-11.txt
[00:04:25] <cradek> on the bottom of the board is a pot - right a couple parts is a tiny diode D35
[00:04:53] <dan1mal> got it
[00:05:04] <cradek> disconnect one end of it
[00:05:51] <dan1mal> done
[00:06:01] <dan1mal> power up now?
[00:06:01] <cradek> see if she runs now
[00:06:13] <andypugh> What do you think of this one, chaps?
[00:06:15] <andypugh> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PHILIPS-PM3256-75MHz-DUAL-CHANNEL-OSCILLOSCOPE_W0QQitemZ150400424612
[00:07:01] <dan1mal> i think it works
[00:07:04] <dan1mal> it's holding
[00:07:12] <cradek> woo
[00:07:18] <dan1mal> weird
[00:07:31] <archivist_emc> should be ok andypugh , if you ever need manuals look here http://www.collection.archivist.inf
[00:07:36] <archivist_emc> should be ok andypugh , if you ever need manuals look here http://www.collection.archivist.info
[00:07:48] <andypugh> Thanks
[00:08:20] <cradek> what's weird?
[00:08:24] <eric_unterhausen> wish I could find the service manuals for my amps
[00:08:42] <C_Bug> I have a quick question folks: anyone have any idea on the lifetimes of those fancy metal geared hobby servos? Once they're gutted you're left with a nice little motor & gearbox. I'm wondering what they'll be like for lightweight use.
[00:10:01] <dan1mal> now the other one isnt working
[00:10:15] <cradek> dude
[00:11:13] <dan1mal> checking connections now
[00:11:23] <cradek> eric_unterhausen: me too (for my mill)
[00:11:45] <cradek> eric_unterhausen: I've got one amp dead and another one that constantly says an incorrect fault
[00:12:10] <eric_unterhausen> I seem to have managed to toast 3 drives
[00:12:17] <cradek> ow
[00:12:31] <eric_unterhausen> yeah
[00:12:33] <dan1mal> wtf
[00:16:04] <archivist_emc> andypugh, nice though is item 320472824462
[00:17:17] <andypugh> Very nice, but 4 days to run and several bidders. I was trying to find something nobody else had spotted
[00:17:30] <dan1mal> it's in overcurrent trip
[00:17:52] <cradek> PL1B is +12?
[00:17:57] <dan1mal> yep
[00:18:06] <cradek> wtf
[00:18:13] <cradek> wiring problem?
[00:18:24] <cradek> you have to remove power to clear overcurrent
[00:18:31] <Jymmm> Note: TDS1xxx and TDS2xxx lifetime warranty is to the ORIGINAL owner, otherwise 3yrs iirc.
[00:18:39] <cradek> did the axis drift against something while you weren't looking?
[00:19:13] <dan1mal> it did but i backed it off and it stayed put after i adjusted the pot some more
[00:19:32] <cradek> did you make sure it's clear and remove/reapply power?
[00:19:43] <dan1mal> i did but i'll let it sit alot longer
[00:19:54] <dan1mal> caps hold a few volts for a while
[00:19:57] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[00:20:38] <cradek> the one we doctored - seems like you could just run it that way and not worry
[00:20:51] <dan1mal> yea agreed.
[00:20:59] <cradek> the machine is not heavy enough to give you some big regenerative overvoltage problem
[00:21:12] <dan1mal> i'm gunna put the heat sink back on it
[00:21:22] <cradek> other than that, I can't imagine what would do it
[00:21:29] <dan1mal> yea, weird, huh
[00:22:12] <cradek> the over-V fault circuit is all discrete so you could debug and fix it if you care enough
[00:22:27] <dan1mal> ehh
[00:22:34] <cradek> me too :-)
[00:23:51] <cradek> actually it might just be BD7 that's bad
[00:24:13] <Jymmm> BD ???
[00:24:30] <Jymmm> Blocking Diode?
[00:24:33] <cradek> Bzener diode
[00:24:38] <dan1mal> bad diode
[00:24:39] <cradek> no idea why B
[00:24:42] <cradek> haha
[00:24:44] <cradek> bogus diode
[00:24:46] <Jymmm> lol bzener
[00:24:53] <Jymmm> Bullshit Zenere
[00:25:05] <Jymmm> BzzzzzzzzZener
[00:25:11] <archivist_emc> buggered zener
[00:25:16] <Jymmm> there ya go
[00:26:51] <lilalinux> lilalinux is now known as lilalinux_away
[00:27:12] <dan1mal> still in over current
[00:27:15] <dan1mal> dammit
[00:27:20] <dan1mal> wtf
[00:27:50] <Jymmm> dan1mal: Can you easily disconnect everything from it and then ground ground and +pwr?
[00:28:24] <Jymmm> (basically making sure that all the caps are discharged)
[00:28:27] <dan1mal> think so, yea
[00:28:46] <cradek> you removed all three powers?
[00:29:23] <dan1mal> yea
[00:29:40] <andypugh> archivist_emc: That Tektronix scope is a brand new, £1000 item. I can't see me affording it. :-)
[00:29:46] <dan1mal> trying it now
[00:29:49] <archivist_emc> :)
[00:30:35] <cradek> current sense is a lot more complicated - I'm not seeing how it works
[00:31:16] <andypugh> Silly me, I converted $1600 to £1000, whereas everybody knows that they are 1:1 as far as actual hardware is concerned.
[00:31:43] <andypugh> It's a £1600 scope at the UK price.
[00:32:56] <dan1mal> bingo
[00:33:01] <Jymmm> Yeah, the TDS series are on my wish list.
[00:33:03] <dan1mal> we are good
[00:33:04] <Jymmm> dan1mal: ?
[00:33:15] <cradek> what fixed the overcurrent?
[00:33:22] <dan1mal> draining the caps
[00:33:26] <cradek> ahhh
[00:33:31] <cradek> not patient enough :-)
[00:33:32] <dan1mal> they hold like 3v forever
[00:33:33] <Jymmm> dan1mal: leave the grounds on for a few miutes still
[00:33:44] <Jymmm> or whatever
[00:33:55] <Jymmm> dan1mal: I just dont trust shit =)
[00:33:56] <dan1mal> both servos are holding
[00:34:05] <cradek> ok, we expect videos soon :-)
[00:34:16] <dan1mal> i owe ya more than videos
[00:34:40] <cradek> ok, then a video and a Kurt D675 :-)
[00:34:43] <Jymmm> dan1mal: Yeah, send cradek a hooker or four
[00:34:46] <dan1mal> haha
[00:35:02] <cradek> Jymmm: vise last longer than vice
[00:35:10] <andypugh> Oh, I seem to be the highest bidder on the TDS 2012B. If I get it at that price I will be astonished
[00:35:13] <Jymmm> cradek: lol
[00:35:20] <dan1mal> kurts are great
[00:35:33] <Jymmm> andypugh: they went for ~$600 USD on ebay
[00:35:42] <dan1mal> i got a couple imitations, but they still work good
[00:35:42] <toast_> toast_ is now known as toastydeath
[00:35:58] <dan1mal> cradek: you saved my ass, thanks a ton
[00:36:05] <andypugh> Yeah, I don't have $600 to spend on something I use half a dozen times a year.
[00:36:23] <cradek> dan1mal: you're welcome, glad I could help
[00:36:44] <dan1mal> cant return the favor with emc help, but if you ever need any anodizing or anything done, let me know
[00:37:02] <Jymmm> dan1mal: Have a loading dock?
[00:37:12] <Jymmm> * Jymmm snickers
[00:37:13] <cradek> slick - I will remember that, thanks. I might sure need anodizing some time.
[00:37:13] <dan1mal> haha
[00:37:25] <dan1mal> no prob, i got every color
[00:37:30] <Jymmm> dan1mal: any plating?
[00:37:32] <cradek> neat
[00:37:37] <dan1mal> na, just anodizing
[00:37:46] <Jymmm> dan1mal: can you do plastics?
[00:37:51] <Jymmm> oh nm
[00:37:58] <dan1mal> http://homebrewedcomponents.wordpress.com/product-pictures-and-pricing/
[00:38:02] <Jymmm> I was thinking chrome plasted plastics
[00:38:08] <dan1mal> i anodize all my bike parts i make
[00:38:18] <dan1mal> Jymmm, i'd like to do that soon
[00:38:38] <Jymmm> dan1mal: Yeah, I have no clue on how they do that.
[00:38:46] <Jymmm> but it's cool =)
[00:38:58] <dan1mal> it's easy, it's just a bit of dangerous chemicals
[00:39:11] <Jymmm> dan1mal: AND PLATING ISN'T? LOL
[00:39:11] <dan1mal> anodizing isnt too bad, it's just diluted battery acid
[00:39:32] <Jymmm> dan1mal: you can only anonzide alumin, right?
[00:39:43] <dan1mal> well with my setup, yes
[00:39:47] <andypugh> Why do people want such very low-geared bicycles?
[00:40:13] <dan1mal> you can anodize some stainless and titanium
[00:40:19] <dan1mal> andypugh: it
[00:40:25] <Jymmm> ah, ok. never seen that before
[00:40:26] <dan1mal> it's all mountain bike gearing
[00:40:36] <cradek> bbl, I'm off to the warmer part of the house :-)
[00:40:45] <dan1mal> thanks again cradek
[00:41:14] <andypugh> Right, fixed gear singlespeeds offroad. There must be almost half a dozen people mad enough to be potential customers?
[00:41:36] <Guest186> Is there a list of what can be removed to streamline ubuntu to make emc faster?
[00:41:46] <danimal_garage> it's not fixed gear, just single speed
[00:41:54] <danimal_garage> and it's pretty popular
[00:42:15] <andypugh> These girls also have very low gearing..
[00:42:16] <andypugh> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b36Yi-Pb1wM
[00:42:40] <archivist_emc> Guest186, are you having latency problems
[00:42:40] <Guest186> or a stripped down cd that has most other stuff left out
[00:43:01] <Guest186> need that max pulse rate i can get
[00:43:15] <andypugh> What is your current latency?
[00:43:30] <Guest186> would like to have it boot right to emc
[00:44:08] <Guest186> almost like turbocnc whitout the dos
[00:44:59] <archivist_emc> if you are not running it yet you are asking the wrong questions
[00:46:19] <andypugh> Stripping stuff out probably doesn't help that much, most modules are loaded on demand, so if you aren't using them, they aren't costing you anyhting.
[00:46:20] <Guest186> not running but math from latency test shows it will be too slow
[00:46:30] <andypugh> What latency?
[00:47:19] <archivist_emc> to slow to do what?
[00:47:36] <Jymmm> take over the world!
[00:47:54] <archivist_emc> I run a 5 axis mill with 12000 latency
[00:48:03] <archivist_emc> stepper by the way
[00:48:06] <Guest186> 11825
[00:48:24] <Jymmm> Guest186: That's great latency, 20K is the limit
[00:48:24] <Guest186> but has gear reduction and micro stepping
[00:48:42] <Jymmm> as a rule
[00:48:46] <Jymmm> .
[00:49:08] <andypugh> You will still probably find that you reach mechanical limits before software ones.
[00:49:21] <archivist_emc> I half step, and accept the max speeds I can get
[00:49:56] <archivist_emc> stepper motor max speeds are a problem, they lose torque
[00:50:26] <Jymmm> archivist_emc: what size steppers?
[00:50:30] <Jymmm> do you have?
[00:50:47] <Jymmm> 23's?
[00:50:52] <Jymmm> 34's?
[00:51:04] <Guest186> 4.6A 1500ozin 34's
[00:51:09] <Guest186> monsters
[00:51:11] <andypugh> $79 buys you a hardware step generator card with 48 gpio lines, that might be easier/better than software step generation if you do have a serious problem.
[00:51:28] <Guest186> 8x10 router
[00:51:42] <Guest186> retrofitting it
[00:52:01] <Jymmm> Guest186: 8x10 inches? feet?
[00:52:14] <Guest186> no sorry 42's on it
[00:52:26] <Guest186> feet
[00:52:52] <Guest186> chinese unit
[00:53:01] <archivist_emc> Jymmm, 180Ncm - 6mm Shaft and 57mm square whatever that size is
[00:53:22] <Guest186> horrible wiring and software on it
[00:53:26] <andypugh> Guest186 12uS latency, 200 step motors and 4x microstepping gives you 5000rpm motor speed by my calculations. I almost guarantee that your motors won't do that under load.
[00:53:53] <Guest186> 5:1 gear reduction
[00:54:18] <andypugh> Yeah, but that's irrelevant, I was talking purely about motor speed.
[00:54:40] <andypugh> I doubt that any Nema 42 can do 5000rpm
[00:54:58] <andypugh> What voltage do your drivers run at?
[00:55:02] <Guest186> 90
[00:55:29] <andypugh> Maybe then, but I would still be surprised if CPU speed ends up being your limiting case
[00:55:42] <Guest186> mach3 cant even come close to any good speed
[00:55:54] <Guest186> at 25khz and 35
[00:56:01] <Guest186> tried a test with it
[00:56:09] <andypugh> But is it running out of step generation, or mechanical/electrical limits?
[00:56:16] <Guest186> so now looking at emc
[00:56:46] <danimal_garage> i'm excited that my amps work
[00:56:50] <Guest186> parallel port wont step fast enough
[00:56:57] <danimal_garage> tomorrow i begin tuning :)
[00:57:07] <Guest186> wth mach at least
[00:57:32] <Guest186> and the pulses on the scope turn to crap above 35khz
[00:57:40] <andypugh> Well, with that latency you should get 83kHz
[00:58:34] <danimal_garage> is it important to set the servo period in the ini if i'm using a mesa 5i20 and steppers?
[00:58:49] <Guest186> what was that $79 card that <andypugh> referred to
[00:58:54] <andypugh> http://www.mesanet.com/pdf/parallel/7i43ds.pdf
[00:59:03] <danimal_garage> or a 5i20 and servos for that matter
[00:59:30] <andypugh> danimal_garage: Yes, but you can ignore the base thread
[00:59:36] <danimal_garage> ah ok
[00:59:51] <danimal_garage> mine was set at the default of like 100000 or something
[01:00:14] <andypugh> Yeah, 1uS is normal for 5i20 servicing
[01:00:23] <danimal_garage> been running it there for ever
[01:00:40] <Guest186> the 5i20 looks promising
[01:00:52] <danimal_garage> 5i20 is noce, i have 2
[01:00:56] <danimal_garage> nice*
[01:01:17] <danimal_garage> so the servo period is the servo base period when you do the latency test, correct?
[01:01:20] <andypugh> I went with the 7i43 because my PC is a 1U unit, so adding PCI cards was a non-starter.
[01:01:32] <Guest186> alll functions work fine, i did try a smooth stepper awhile back useless
[01:02:00] <Guest186> I assume they can run steppers or servos?
[01:02:34] <Guest186> the 5i20
[01:02:34] <danimal_garage> 5i20 can run both, but you need a 7i33 daughter board for servos
[01:02:40] <andypugh> Yes, you configure how many encoders, stepgens, PWMs etc you want in the INI file and it gets configured to suit.
[01:03:21] <Guest186> so the card is programmable in a sense
[01:03:36] <danimal_garage> yep
[01:03:41] <Guest186> still new to emc dont forget
[01:03:46] <danimal_garage> me too
[01:04:11] <andypugh> Not just "in a sense". It is a general purpose FPGA card, it can do almost anything. However for EMC use it is loaded with a motion controller.
[01:04:45] <Guest186> just dont want to repeat with the smooth stepper, having people say how good it is then finding out later oh that part dont work yet
[01:05:43] <andypugh> The very big advantage of EMC is that if something doesn't work yet, you can either make it work yourself, or ask someone else to make it work. Open Source at its best.
[01:06:30] <Guest186> i have it running a foam cutter and works perfectly
[01:06:31] <archivist_emc> Guest186, you can peruse the logs, I dont rem,ember seeing any problem (I am not using one myself yet)
[01:06:52] <andypugh> I am using a 7i43. It definitely works
[01:07:07] <danimal_garage> i'm running steppers on my 5i20
[01:07:16] <danimal_garage> works awesome
[01:07:29] <Guest186> so i assume it gets step timing from the FPGA
[01:07:39] <danimal_garage> i think so
[01:07:40] <Guest186> not emc software
[01:07:57] <danimal_garage> yea
[01:08:16] <danimal_garage> so it doesnt rely on your latency
[01:08:17] <andypugh> What does the 7i33 do? I was going to connect my servo drives direct to my breakout board (which has some homebrew PWM-voltage convertors on it)
[01:09:08] <Guest186> where are the firmwares for the mesa cards
[01:09:09] <andypugh> Every servo period EMC tells the FPGA how many steps it wants until the next update, basically.
[01:09:11] <danimal_garage> it's a 4 channel servo motor controller
[01:09:34] <andypugh> The Mesa firmware is included in the standard EMC installation
[01:09:39] <danimal_garage> has DAC's and encoder counters
[01:09:56] <danimal_garage> i use a 7i33 on my mill for my VFD
[01:10:14] <andypugh> Ah, how does that improve on having the servo counters on the 5i20?
[01:10:24] <Guest186> ok will have a look for that next dual boot
[01:10:38] <Guest186> thanks for the help some reading ahead
[01:10:59] <danimal_garage> makes it easier for idiots like me
[01:11:00] <andypugh> Guest186: You should find some sample Mesa configs in the sample configs when you boot emc
[01:11:32] <danimal_garage> 7i33 has +-10v
[01:11:36] <Guest186> just want to make sure what i want to work will
[01:12:16] <Guest186> thingks like probe, backlash, tool change
[01:12:39] <danimal_garage> that'll all work
[01:13:01] <archivist_emc> Guest186, to give you an idea of lack of cpu speed problems I have had this box running and cutting gears at the same time as compiling and testing software
[01:13:20] <andypugh> Guest186: This should give you a feel for the Hostmot driver and what it can do.
[01:13:21] <andypugh> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html//man/man9/hostmot2.9.html
[01:13:23] <Guest186> i ahve a vfd but seen the file to make it work, just need to find out what controls what
[01:13:57] <danimal_garage> magic
[01:14:12] <andypugh> danimal_garage: Yes, +/- 10V would be difficult, but my drives want 0-10v and direction.
[01:15:08] <danimal_garage> andy, i just bought whatever was easiest... i'm certainly no guru when it comes to building circuitry
[01:15:11] <archivist_emc> andypugh, I bid on the dead HP scope :)
[01:15:21] <Guest186> http://cnc4pc.com/Files/EMC2.txt
[01:15:41] <andypugh> Guest186: But I think you should start with software stepgen and the p-port, make sure that isn't good enough and get a nice gentle intro to EMC that way.
[01:16:16] <andypugh> Diving straight in to hand-coding HAL files etc might be a little overwhelming at first.
[01:16:26] <Guest186> but i assume for a 5i20 its different
[01:16:56] <Guest186> currently have a c23 card cnc4pc unit BOB
[01:17:52] <Guest186> it has a f to v, that part was easy to get running
[01:18:05] <andypugh> That HAL file is using a stepgen to create a variable frequency drive for the VFD. That's great if the VFD likes that, but some want a PWM or analog voltage.
[01:18:09] <Guest186> but making it go fast no so easy
[01:18:24] <andypugh> I use a pwmgen and a low-pass filter to control my VFD.
[01:18:44] <Guest186> but totally different in emc
[01:18:47] <andypugh> Well, "low pass filter" is one way to describe a resistor and capacitor
[01:19:47] <Guest186> ok thanks again some reading ahead l8r
[01:29:00] <andypugh> OK, time to sleep
[01:45:12] <Jymmm> Sleep?! SLEEP IS FOR THE WEAK!!!
[01:45:32] <Jymmm> Now, where's my pillow and blanky damnit!
[02:23:21] <Dave911> http://neo-technical.wikispaces.com/emc2-ubuntu
[02:23:22] <Dave911> I'm trying to setup EMC2 on Ubuntu 9.1 and I'm following this wiki. I get down to 5a and I hit a wall. I can't find that anything I did installed a file called "config-2.6.24-16-rtai"
[02:23:24] <Dave911> Any ideas? I started with a fresh Ubuntu 9.1 install by using a CD made from the image off the Ubuntu website.
[02:23:25] <Dave911> Everything has worked up until this point....
[02:28:36] <ds3> for those of you with desktop machines, what do you use as a stand so the entire machine doesn't work during rapids?
[02:28:45] <jepler> Dave911: I am not sure where that file would come from either
[02:28:55] <jepler> Dave911: I think maybe it's intended to be a link to the file, but I'm not sure
[02:29:16] <jepler> Dave911: normally in ubuntu the file /boot/config-xxx is installed when you install the kernel xxx
[02:29:21] <ds3> s/work/rock/
[02:29:22] <jepler> where xxx is the version and any special items
[02:30:39] <Dave911> I did find a config-xxx file there but it is definitely not the rtai config file - looks like the config file for the version I originally installed 91.
[02:30:40] <Dave911> Another guy had similar problems - it is on the same page under the discussions tab.
[02:31:33] <Dave911> Perhaps I should go look at an RTAI website and see if they have instructions on patching the kernel source ..... ?? This must be documented elsewhere.
[02:32:02] <jepler> Dave911: actually, I think that file may exist on a Hardy system with emc installed
[02:33:01] <Dave911> Oh... well I have another system with a Hardy EMC2 install on it.... I never thought of that.... good idea... I'll go look for that.
[02:33:14] <jepler> it does, and I uploaded it: http://emergent.unpy.net/files/sandbox/config-2.6.24-16-rtai
[02:33:23] <jepler> I'm not 100% sure this is the file you need, but it seems as good a guess as any..
[02:34:44] <Dave911> I think that is the file! :-) Thanks! So perhaps when he did the wiki he started with a system that already had hardy with emc2 on it???? Hmmm.. I'm probably thinking too much. I'll give it a shot and report back.
[02:35:34] <jepler> beats me
[02:35:48] <Jymmm> jepler: OMG that's SO disgusting! Oh wait, wrong link. nm.
[02:35:49] <jepler> best of luck, bbl
[02:55:10] <Dave911> jepler: That works! :-) I'll let Neo-User about it so he can correct the wiki.... thanks!
[06:33:11] <toastydeath> there are like, no paintball fields near my parent's house
[06:33:19] <toastydeath> although i guess i'll be too poor to play
[06:33:40] <Jymmm> toastydeath: trn your parents living into a paintball field
[06:33:46] <Jymmm> livingroom
[06:33:55] <toastydeath> the possibilities are endless
[06:34:28] <Jymmm> toastydeath: cheaper yet, jsut aim the gun at yourself and pull the trigger, then you'll feel you in the game
[06:34:49] <toastydeath> run in the woods for 10 minutes and then shoot myself in the arm
[06:35:11] <tom3p> A Gentle Introduction to Programming Using Python MIT's OpenCourseWare, great comic from xkcd http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Electrical-Engineering-and-Computer-Science/6-189January--IAP--2008/CourseHome/index.htm
[06:35:37] <tom3p> 'just import antigravity' :)
[06:37:07] <ds3> wonder how well would these stamped metal "workstations"/stands hold up to rapid acceleration/deceleration
[07:16:39] <tom3p> 'manhattan construction technique' i never saw breadboarding like this http://www.k7qo.net/lab.pdf
[07:18:40] <Jymmm> very common on RF projects
[07:22:17] <tom3p> looks like Bob Pease stuff but organized, he hated breadboards and made 'hairballs' just soldering components to components. he was an rf & hi-freq specialist.
[07:22:22] <lilalinux_away> lilalinux_away is now known as lilalinux
[07:24:27] <Jymmm> http://www.hanssummers.com/images/stories/gpsref/photos1/reg.jpg
[07:27:05] <Jymmm> http://www.hanssummers.com/qrss.html this guy does a lot of that style
[07:28:29] <tom3p> cool, but the idea isnt explained , is it having a nearby big ground plane?
[07:29:09] <Jymmm> tom3p: Not that I know of, just really cheap and lazy
[07:30:03] <Jymmm> but you have to realize that commercial sold radios at one time were built like this - no perf or PCB even existed.
[07:32:11] <tom3p> i'm 61 and as a kid did a lot of radio, i dont recall this 'solder buttons on a board' stuff, but there were lots of rows of tabs on phenolic, all stuff soldered to the tabs.
[07:32:35] <tom3p> and i love his tiny scope
[07:33:14] <Jymmm> Well, the guy that wrote that PDF, seems to have perfected the art
[07:34:29] <tom3p> here's the guys from when i was a kid, winding q-coils, and dx-ing at night. you'd send off 10c to Redwood City CA and get back a mimeographed diagram and tutorial http://www.modernradiolabs.com/
[07:35:27] <tom3p> haha fahenstock clips to make connections
[07:47:14] <Jymmm> or hold allen wrench to bottom of paddles
[07:47:32] <lilalinux> lilalinux is now known as lilalinux_away
[07:47:46] <lilalinux_away> lilalinux_away is now known as lilalinux
[07:49:38] <Jymmm> tom3p: ok, I can't find a pic, but on the bottom of the bencher paddles that use on to hold an allen wrench so you can make adjustments without having to search for a wrench
[07:50:52] <Jymmm> tom3p: Ah, here ya go... http://www.hanssummers.com/qrss.html
[07:51:05] <Jymmm> err http://www.eham.net/articles/21086
[07:57:47] <tom3p> wow, now i see it ( i had to kill ffox 2.0, it'd hung ) yep one of those thingy's. , and you must do morse code, i didnt get 'paddles' for a long time
[07:58:10] <tom3p> thx & good nite (must be awful late for you too )
[07:58:10] <Jymmm> ah, lol
[07:58:22] <Jymmm> http://lcwo.net/
[07:59:15] <Jymmm> tom3p: This is what I have... http://www.rigpix.com/cwgear/bencher_by2.htm
[07:59:49] <Jymmm> I got lucky abot a month ago on craigslist
[09:11:19] <Jymmm> cradek: jepler check out the pics for the "Commercial PCB mill" (click to enlarge), wth spindle is that? http://www.neufeld.newton.ks.us/electronics/?p=475
[09:18:25] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[10:10:22] <piasdom> g'mornin all
[10:29:40] <MOGLI> can anyone have experience with PLUTO-P STEPPER?? i need config files for that...
[10:34:24] <micges_work> lathe pluto: http://git.linuxcnc.org/gitweb?p=emc2.git;a=tree;f=configs/lathe-pluto;h=d013e408113125420f1282c2fa2f16433518f6b8;hb=98635d627393646c70a5fdeeb0001b660c3c83d6
[10:51:58] <MOGLI> hey micges_work.. thanks but its for SERVO not stepper.. i need stepper
[10:57:55] <bassogigas> they say latest kernel don't like rtai. did anyone try to patch latest kernel?
[10:58:08] <bassogigas> *doesn't
[12:09:28] <isssy> hi all
[12:10:18] <bassogigas> speak
[12:10:20] <bassogigas> ;)
[14:03:20] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[14:04:02] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[14:05:51] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[14:06:35] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[14:13:36] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[14:14:47] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[14:24:36] <skunkworks> http://cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96997
[14:43:22] <Jymmm> interesting idea
[14:50:53] <jepler> I don't see how that'll work. Say you don't have the same repeatable tool lengths as you did a year ago, what good will that log of steps do you?
[14:52:29] <Jymmm> zero out your tools?
[14:53:30] <celeron55> that probably won't work with most things
[15:50:00] <jepler> informative mailing list post from kim on the CUI encoders that sam and anders have tried: http://mid.gmane.org/4B4B44AD.3020002@ix.netcom.com
[15:59:52] <skunkworks> very very informative
[16:00:31] <cradek> I don't understand why you can't use the index for homing
[16:02:19] <skunkworks> it sounds like the index is unstable when there is a strong magnetic field.
[16:03:15] <cradek> but +- a few counts is still pretty decent homing
[16:04:58] <skunkworks> it is unclear if it is in the wrong place or non-existant... (at least that is what I get from it.)\
[16:05:24] <cradek> yeah nonexistant would be a problem...
[16:05:25] <skunkworks> it says the index 'may not function properly'
[16:05:43] <cradek> good way to hit a limit switch
[16:05:47] <skunkworks> yes
[16:06:08] <cradek> I wish we had smartness about that
[16:06:35] <cradek> if you haven't found a limit in 0.2" you're not going to find it
[16:06:44] <cradek> no use looking forever
[16:07:01] <cradek> the cutoff would have to be configurable of course
[16:13:27] <celeron55> well, what would it do then? supposedly it would fail every time the same way because of the same magnetic fields
[16:20:21] <pcw_home> Another use of index is a general sanity check of the encoder (missing index or bad count at index = fail)
[16:21:13] <cradek> pcw_home: that'd be great! you could notice a lost/extra count.
[16:22:11] <pcw_home> Probably only useful after homing
[16:23:18] <cradek> where would that go? seems like maybe it would have to be in the firmware.
[16:24:10] <cradek> er, earlier I said 'if you haven't found a limit in 0.2"' but I meant 'found an index'
[16:24:23] <cradek> (but I'm sure you all figured that out)
[16:25:08] <pcw_home> It would work on the software counter or HostMot2 (with HostMot2 set to latch on every index)
[16:26:02] <cradek> oh, so after homing, you'd set it to always latch, and then the driver could always check the latched value to see if it's a multiple of the encoder ppr?
[16:26:13] <pcw_home> Right
[16:26:23] <cradek> wow, that would be cool
[16:26:46] <cradek> it would detect all sorts of problems that are hidden otherwise
[16:28:01] <pcw_home> Very hard for noise problems to fool an index check
[16:28:12] <cradek> yeah
[16:28:58] <cradek> in opposite directions would you maybe get a difference of one count? or is an index hole smaller than the other holes so it always gives the same count?
[16:29:26] <pcw_home> Yes, you make need a 1-2 count slop
[16:29:37] <pcw_home> (may)
[16:30:44] <pcw_home> The HostMot2 counter has the ability to gate index by A/B but its not supported in the driver
[16:32:26] <cradek> I bet you could use index mask if you really wanted, too
[16:32:42] <pcw_home> The encoders I've used for testing (Renishaw?) are right on (exact count either way)
[16:33:22] <pcw_home> Yes you could use the mask (or turn it off)
[16:45:16] <pcw_home> (Sort of) on the same topic, has anyone looked at spitting out high speed raster data?
[16:47:03] <cradek> I think a lot of us have come up with a scheme we'd try if we wanted to do it bad enough
[16:48:28] <cradek> I keep saying I'd get it working if someone would give me one of those laser plotters, but nobody has taken me up on it yet!
[16:48:54] <pcw_home> We have a customer that wants this, and I thought I would make a FPGA config
[16:48:55] <pcw_home> where the encoder count indexed through block RAM (that contains the Nbit wide raster data),
[16:48:57] <pcw_home> with some kind of real time task filling the proper Blockram page ahead of time (kind of like paged virtual memory)
[16:48:58] <pcw_home> Is there any infrastructure in EMC to pass file I/O to the realtime portion?
[16:49:23] <pcw_home> (other than motion)
[16:49:38] <cradek> streamer - stream file data into HAL in real time
[16:50:08] <cradek> I'm not sure how much of what you need that is, though
[16:50:36] <cradek> I agree with your general scheme but I'm unsure what else is needed for the coordination
[16:51:22] <cradek> I suspect a similar thing could be done in the software stepgen - you'd give an image with one pixel per step, and the base thread could clock it out just like it clocks out step pulses
[16:51:35] <cradek> (that's the first thing I'd try if I wanted to do this)
[16:53:34] <pcw_home> Sure the software version could be the same, maybe FIFO instead of bi-directional
[16:53:35] <pcw_home> and raster start and stop (per line) step count numbers
[16:54:21] <cradek> I wonder if something other than emc/gcode is needed for the motion
[16:54:38] <cradek> it's sure simple motion but there's a lot of coordinating to do.
[16:55:15] <pcw_home> I was thinking of having the hardware do the coordination, just some simple setup per line
[16:56:01] <cradek> yeah it's the setup I'm thinking of too. you have to plan each line by sending the right part of the file somewhere, making sure it's ready, and then doing the necessary motion
[16:56:40] <cradek> also, you'd probably want to not start clocking out until you're up to cruise speed, otherwise it seems like you'd get more burn per pixel at the edges of the image
[16:57:27] <celeron55> or control the laser current according to the speed 8)
[16:57:52] <cradek> yeah, I don't have any clue about what's possible on the various machines
[16:58:43] <pcw_home> Right, I would presume the was setup when the raster was defined
[16:58:45] <pcw_home> in the hardware case, the system has an encoder count that starts and stops output
[16:58:56] <cradek> I think you need hal + (mesa, stepgen) + some glue application that is not emc
[16:59:06] <cradek> yep
[16:59:58] <cradek> pcw_home: on my big machine at least, encoder counts are not monotonic at certain speeds (as we saw with the velocity thing)
[17:00:38] <cradek> and with micron resolution encoders I bet it's a lot of unnecessary data
[17:03:38] <pcw_home> Yes with resonances and whatnot, maybe the raster index needs a divider/filter of some kind
[17:03:40] <pcw_home> celeron55: We did the intensity modulation thing before for a customer that did laser annealing
[17:03:41] <pcw_home> but it was independent of the control. just looking over the shoulders of the servo system encoders and calculating
[17:03:43] <pcw_home> the linear velocity
[17:33:15] <JbLb_> JbLb_ is now known as JbLb
[17:37:01] <danimal_garage> cradek: stupid question, but for the x axis, you just doubled the input scale, right?
[17:38:08] <danimal_garage> and if so, did you double the velocity too?
[17:38:36] <danimal_garage> because wont it think it's doing 200ipm when it's only doing 100ipm?
[17:40:59] <cradek> what? why would you do that?
[17:41:27] <cradek> oh you want gcode in diameter instead of radius? use G7
[17:41:40] <cradek> if you double the scale arcs won't be round either
[17:41:52] <danimal_garage> ahh ok
[17:43:49] <danimal_garage> gracias
[17:56:19] <danimal_garage> ok, time to attempt the tune
[18:07:47] <Vq_> Vq_ is now known as Vq
[18:12:43] <lilalinux> lilalinux is now known as lilalinux_away
[18:13:36] <lilalinux_away> lilalinux_away is now known as lilalinux
[18:32:08] <danimal_garage> hmm my positioning is backwards
[18:50:53] <danimal_garage> if my machine is counting backwards, what's the best way to reverse it? do i just swap the a and b phases around? i didnt see a parameter for inverting the count in HAL
[18:51:06] <cradek> negate INPUT_SCALE and OUTPUT_SCALE
[18:51:29] <danimal_garage> ah input scale is still positive
[18:51:32] <danimal_garage> thanks
[18:54:00] <bassogigas> change pins? :)
[19:00:47] <danimal_garage> yay it's getting close
[19:01:37] <LawrenceG> logger_emc, bookmark
[19:01:37] <LawrenceG> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2010-01-11.txt
[19:19:09] <danimal_garage> what is deadband? i dont see it in the integrator manual
[19:24:02] <frallzor> honk honk
[19:28:27] <tom3p> this box cut tux 3 times this morning with no 'unexpected realtime delays'.
[19:28:28] <tom3p> that surprised me becuz it usually has some.
[19:28:28] <tom3p> i noticed i had no usb thumb and no cdrom.
[19:28:28] <tom3p> so i inserted the usb thumb and played ann mp3 off it.
[19:28:28] <tom3p> 3 minutes later i got an URD.
[19:28:28] <tom3p> i checked and captured dmesg/syslog/messages.
[19:28:30] <tom3p> i see the insert and the error 3 min later, and 3 instances of 'panic' reading the vfat directories.
[19:28:33] <tom3p> but 3 minutes before the UDR.
[19:28:34] <tom3p> Im rebooting now and will see if just the USB thumb insertion causes same UDR.
[19:32:01] <danimal_garage> when tuning PID, it looks like the integrator manual says i and d are supposed to be a negative value, am i reading this right?
[19:34:22] <frallzor> the URD, isnt that quite a bitch somethimes? my old computer complained about it every start
[19:34:29] <frallzor> but it never lost steps and such
[19:42:34] <tom3p> back running 3D_chips as baseline test... ok so far, no usb thumb, no media players, no cdrom. irc , emc2 & ffox running
[19:43:01] <frallzor> hello mr tom3p sir
[19:43:15] <tom3p> hello hello
[19:43:29] <tom3p> i'm not knighted (yet) so skip the sir
[19:43:39] <frallzor> ok =P
[19:43:41] <tom3p> even the mr
[19:44:05] <frallzor> got me stuff working
[19:44:11] <frallzor> with help :P
[19:44:25] <tom3p> good goin, you had touch screen probs?
[19:44:36] <frallzor> yes elo-shit =)
[19:44:54] <frallzor> they actually had nice driver on their site for serial touch for linux
[19:45:04] <tom3p> i got one here i should try, a usb overlay from some place in texas, dirt cheap 19", near 100$
[19:45:47] <frallzor> my whole rig cost me that =P
[19:46:04] <frallzor> but used of course
[19:46:06] <tom3p> (AFTER i get rid of the URD's , dont stare at the monkeys, dont tease the bears )
[19:46:30] <frallzor> my old comp had URDs
[19:46:36] <frallzor> but never when running code
[19:46:36] <tom3p> oh yeah, i saw the pix, is that a computer or just a touch screen
[19:46:48] <frallzor> computer with touch
[19:47:03] <tom3p> ah, <100$ & good latency == sweet
[19:47:25] <frallzor> I think latency is ok
[19:47:36] <tom3p> stepper or servo?
[19:47:38] <frallzor> not any worse rig than my old lappy which is gone now
[19:47:44] <frallzor> need some more ram =)
[19:47:50] <frallzor> ill be going stepper-way
[19:48:06] <frallzor> down stepper alley and pass servo road
[19:48:13] <tom3p> heh i went looking for pc133 ram today (old boxes)
[19:49:57] <frallzor> got one cheap on swedish "ebay" yesterday
[19:50:01] <frallzor> 512mb =)
[19:50:14] <tom3p> sdram or touchscreen?
[19:50:18] <frallzor> sdram
[19:50:48] <frallzor> 256mb seemed a bit on the edge
[19:50:59] <frallzor> so its getting 512 instead =)
[19:50:59] <tom3p> (got 1 pass of 3D-chips w/o URD) plugging in USB thumb now
[19:51:19] <frallzor> why you want that usb-thumb connected if it messes it up?
[19:51:42] <tom3p> i found 512meg sdram pc133 non-ecc non-registered 15$ free shipping (US)
[19:51:58] <frallzor> pretty much same as my price =)
[19:52:00] <tom3p> no tsure its the USB, maybe the sound generation or mp3 decoding
[19:54:22] <danimal_garage> when tuning pid, are i and d supposed to be negative values?
[19:54:37] <danimal_garage> not sure if i'm reading the manual right
[19:54:47] <frallzor> is there some kind of "manage hardware" in ubuntu?
[19:55:03] <frallzor> I want to kill stuff like audio and stuff I dont use
[19:56:49] <micges> frallzor: sudo apt-get install bum
[19:57:12] <micges> then system-admin->boot up manager
[19:57:32] <tom3p> System | Administration | Services to turn off unwanted services
[19:57:43] <tom3p> micges, news to me, will look at it
[19:57:43] <frallzor> might check bios first
[19:57:49] <frallzor> thatll take care of it if its there =)
[20:00:02] <andypugh> Given a budget of around £125, which of these would you chaps buy?
[20:00:03] <andypugh> http://www.stewart-of-reading.co.uk/extra_special_oscilloscope_list.htm
[20:00:12] <Dave911> Hi guys ... I'm busy crashing my pc .... I am trying to follow this to install RTAI and EMC2 on Ubuntu 9.1 http://neo-technical.wikispaces.com/emc2-ubuntu
[20:00:14] <Dave911> I got up to 10a. Modifying the grub.cfg file and I assumed (yes I know) that Karmic would use grub ver 1.9 - and I was wrong it uses 2.0. :-(
[20:00:15] <Dave911> I edited the grub.cfg file even though it says on the top "Do not edit" (yes I know... ). Now when I boot my system crashes. I found the Ubuntu docs on grub 2.0 which comes with Ubuntu 9.1 and it says
[20:00:17] <Dave911> I should hold down the shift key to get the menu to pop up... That doesn't work - grub attempts to load my kernel and it crashes (I think I know why.. )
[20:00:18] <Dave911> So any idea how I get out of this loop?? Boot from the CD and ? Or is there is secret keystroke sequence to undo bonehead changes.. ;-)
[20:03:01] <andypugh> Is it F2 to force the grub menu to appear?
[20:04:13] <andypugh> (Google) No, looks like ESC is the magic key.
[20:04:54] <archivist_attic> andypugh, easier to say no to certain makes, farnell (some were badged scopex)
[20:05:17] <andypugh> The little Tektronix 336 is favourite so far.
[20:05:59] <andypugh> Or the Rugged Philips
[20:06:19] <andypugh> I suspect that many of them are 30 years old.
[20:08:03] <tom3p> i had one of the sony's, they are tiny, but not worth 95GBP
[20:08:28] <tom3p> a lot of people have bigger screens on their cell phones
[20:08:52] <andypugh> I have quite good eyesight :-)
[20:09:50] <andypugh> As it will be in a cupboard much of the time, tiny sounds good.
[20:10:32] <tom3p> hell this is 2010, where's the cheap HUD storage scopes?
[20:11:24] <archivist_attic> andypugh, he is a bit expensive but the gear is ok
[20:11:34] <andypugh> Not HUD. but there are lots of semi-cheap LCD storage scopes. I was told they were rubbish though.
[20:11:51] <tom3p> err, where's the cheap HUD Axis i/f with a wii pointer?
[20:12:08] <Dave911> andypugh: According to Ubuntu docs - the shift key replaced the esc key when they went to grub 2.0
[20:12:09] <andypugh> He seems cheaper than eBay (even auctions) and also cheaper than the other second-hand dealers.
[20:12:28] <andypugh> Dave911: Does it help?
[20:12:48] <tom3p> if he can calibrate scopes, he may be a good source ( he knows scopes )
[20:13:07] <Dave911> I've tried the shift key and the esc key - no go...
[20:15:37] <tom3p> ( 2 passes of 3D chips ok, with USB thumb inserting, removing, even e2fsk-ing one partition, found error on the vfat... off to W$ box to fix it up ... hmm i hope fix it up )
[20:16:00] <andypugh> I guess you need to boot from CD and edit the grub menu file then.
[20:16:32] <tom3p> Dave911: usb keyboard? i thinks its >any< keys, so if you have no sucess AND its usb keyboard, then maybe its a race
[20:16:58] <tom3p> the grub fix is 'timeout' -> '#timeout NO DAMN TIMEOUT'
[20:17:21] <tom3p> alll my grubs say that, usually not so politely
[20:17:52] <Dave911> OK, this is wierd.. I held down the esc key and the screen said Grub (that's all) and booting stalled.. then I held down the shift key and the esc key and then let go of the esc key so only the shift key was down... then the menu popped up
[20:18:00] <andypugh> Hmm, Stewarts has a 468 digital storage scope for £125, There is one on eBay with £325 BiN. For ancient bits of kit they seem very expensive.
[20:18:23] <Dave911> tom3p: I don't follow... I think I have timeout=5 right .. is that wrong?
[20:18:39] <Dave911> I meant it is simply set for 5
[20:19:05] <Dave911> I am using a USB keyboard
[20:19:21] <tom3p> make it '#timeout=5' for never ever boot unless you tell it which choice, means wait for me
[20:19:25] <andypugh> It might load the USB driver after it boots.
[20:19:32] <tom3p> right, a race
[20:19:42] <tom3p> but he got past that, he's at the menu now
[20:20:51] <Jymmm> Enable legacy USB support in BIOS
[20:20:58] <Dave911> OK, so perhaps me holding down "esc" let it load the USB driver, then when I hit shift it saw it ... ??? hmmm.. wonder if I can do that again.. ;-) Thanks
[20:21:17] <tom3p> Dave911: the '#' comments the line, and when no timeout value is given, it waits for ever. i have maybe 4 kernels and 2 w$'s one each box here, so for me it's '#timeout...'
[20:22:16] <tom3p> Dave911: i dont think you can influence the driver load at boot time, i think its not a driver problem, jsut a manual timing dexterity thingy ( and which button to push )
[20:22:44] <Dave911> OK, I get it .... a # seems like a good idea at the moment
[20:22:45] <Dave911> So you mean I just got lucky?? :-)
[20:23:07] <Jymmm> Dave911: Enable legacy USB support in BIOS
[20:23:23] <tom3p> i think so , so edit that menu.lst file while you can, and then you're in control
[20:24:38] <Dave911> Jymmm: That should help?
[20:24:39] <Dave911> tom3p: This latest version of grub doesn't use the menu.lst file any longer, now they use a grub.cfg file and the Ubuntu docs say not to edit it directly.. which of course I did..
[20:25:08] <Jymmm> Dave911: If the issue is recognition of the I/O devices, then yes.
[20:25:18] <tom3p> heh, a long time ago they used grub.cfg, then chgd to menu.lst, so they're back again? go figger
[20:25:31] <Jymmm> Dave911: Legacy USB includes, mice, kybds, USB FDD's, etc
[20:25:37] <tom3p> or is that bwds?
[20:26:12] <Jymmm> Dave911: basically anything that needs to be recognized/used during the boot process
[20:26:29] <Dave911> tom3p: bwds?
[20:26:30] <Dave911> Jymmm: Thanks I'll make sure that is turned on... sounds important.
[20:27:52] <tom3p> Dave911: (i wondered if i had it bkwds, no i have grub 0.97ubuntu21 pretty new for ubuntu hardy LTS )
[20:28:49] <Dave911> tom3p: I'm a Linux newb so I wouldn't know that they used grub.cfg before ....... bwds... I get it.
[20:30:45] <tom3p> i use 0.97-29ubuntu2 just checked and it only uses menu.lst, maybe you are usign grub2 ?
[20:31:16] <danimal_garage> so i'm tuning my servos, and i was reading the ziegler-nichols method. It says i need to know the oscillation period... how do i go about figuring that out?
[20:31:30] <danimal_garage> hal scope?
[20:31:59] <Dave911> Somehow it appears that I did not turn on the filesystem in the Kernel compile config... I don't know how I would have missed that but my kernel compile it cannot find the partitions... wierd
[20:32:01] <Dave911> The wiki even mentions (after the fact) that this could be an issue.
[20:32:03] <Dave911> tom3p: Yep, according to the Ubuntu docs Karmic 9.1 uses Grub2 , so I have no menu.lst file.
[20:32:43] <Dave911> Compiling the kernel took 5+ hours last night on an Atom 330 cpu.
[20:35:50] <cradek> danimal_garage: your machine might be too light to oscillate
[20:37:40] <danimal_garage> yea it maily just shakes if i have p turned up too high
[20:38:34] <danimal_garage> so not much need for i and d values then?
[20:39:29] <cradek> turn up P until it barely starts shaking, then turn up D a bit (like up to 1% of P) and it will stop
[20:40:02] <cradek> that's should make it pretty stiff - next fix your cruise ferror with FF1 and you're pretty much done
[20:41:05] <danimal_garage> ok i'll give her a shot, thanks
[20:41:32] <jt-plasma> * jt-plasma writes this down
[20:41:51] <cradek> that's for velocity mode
[20:43:00] <jt-plasma> like mine?
[20:43:24] <cradek> yeah if you have tachs it's velocity mode
[20:43:32] <jt-plasma> yep
[20:44:47] <danimal_garage> hmm turning up d at all makes it worse
[20:45:03] <cradek> D is touchy
[20:45:05] <Dave911> Hey guys thanks for all of the tips to help me solve my grub boot issue.. the collective wisdom of this group is mind boggling. I really appreciate everyone helping me out.. Thanks!!! :-)
[20:45:08] <danimal_garage> 1% of p makes it shake really bad
[20:45:43] <ds3>
[20:45:46] <cradek> maybe that's too high then, try less
[20:45:57] <cradek> there should be a sweet spot that damps the oscillation
[20:46:02] <cradek> if there isn't, P is still too high
[20:47:54] <danimal_garage> ok, i'll play with it some. p is about 450 right now
[20:48:12] <danimal_garage> probably a bit high
[20:49:07] <tom3p> Dave911: did you enter your mobo & lantency results? onto http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Latency-Test ?
[20:50:09] <cradek> in velocity mode you don't depend on P as much. it won't hurt you to turn it down until everything is stable.
[20:51:32] <danimal_garage> p=400 and d=.5 seem to be smooth
[20:51:59] <tom3p> (2 iterations of 3D chips, and now usb thumb has been 'fixed' by w$, no errors in ubuntu's message file now ) run #3 with fixed usb inserted
[20:52:37] <danimal_garage> not sure if it's really going 200ipm though, seems slower
[20:52:53] <danimal_garage> could be my imagination
[20:53:18] <cradek> if it's not, you'd see ferror build up
[20:53:28] <cradek> (or your scale is wrong I guess)
[20:54:15] <frallzor> can i "hack" so I can run with touchy without hard buttons?
[20:54:25] <frallzor> I wanna test some code and see what happens
[20:54:32] <tom3p> cradek: this talk of 'smooth', dont people check the plot of the velocity ramp and overshoot like jelson did? http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?PWM_Servo_Amplifiers
[20:54:46] <danimal_garage> what's deadband?
[20:54:48] <cradek> by "can i" do you mean do you have permission, or do you mean do you have the skills to?
[20:55:01] <tom3p> i'm just used to tuning using 'step response, a tacho feedback and a scope ;)
[20:55:10] <frallzor> is it possible
[20:55:13] <cradek> tom3p: yes I always do that
[20:55:22] <danimal_garage> i see deadband in my ini, but no mention of it in the integrator's manual
[20:56:32] <cradek> deadband is 'how close is close enough to consider the motor in position'
[20:56:38] <Dave911> tom3p: No, there is already an entry for the Motherboard I have - the Intel 330 board..
[20:56:51] <tom3p> cool, thx
[20:57:00] <tom3p> ^^ Dave911
[20:58:00] <danimal_garage> ah thanks
[20:59:05] <Dave911> tom3p: I'm trying to get the neo-technical wiki refined on compiling EMC2 on Karmic though... this should really be a little simpler.
[20:59:59] <danimal_garage> when emc is off but the amps are enabled, it creeps quite a bit. is there a way to fix this? i know i still have the inhibit wire grounded instead of hooked up to enable, but just curious if there's something i'm missing
[21:03:28] <tom3p> danimal_garage: got an 'offset' pot? when an amp creeps with no input, there's some bias or offset entering the loop. old skool methods: before using the cnc, connect the Vcmd to gnd, enable the amp ( still no cnc) should have no motion, else adjust offset untill no motion.
[21:04:51] <tom3p> eh, Vcmd to the reference for Vcmd ( Vcmd is velocity command, usually a +/- 10V signal ). this 'clamps the command to absolute 0, testing for any >other< offset in the loop
[21:05:59] <cradek> danimal_garage: you need to hook axis.0.amp-enable to the amp enable
[21:06:20] <cradek> pid will happily hold it in place while emc and the amps are on. creep is normal.
[21:06:55] <danimal_garage> ok cool just making sure thats all it is
[21:06:56] <cradek> yes you can adjust the amp to minimize the creep, but a little doesn't matter because it will never be "free" once you hook up the enable properly.
[21:09:13] <danimal_garage> i'm getting some ferror... i have it set at .005 and min ferror set at .01, and it seems to be fine till 146ipm
[21:10:04] <cradek> plot it and let's see a screen shot
[21:12:02] <jimbo> If i am having trouble holding accuracy. Would it improve if i added encoders to the ball screws. I have linear encoders and a Velocity mode servo system.
[21:12:54] <danimal_garage> i'll see if i can figure out how to plot it
[21:13:30] <jt-plasma> the creep scared the crap out of me when I had my drive enabled one day for testing without the control loop
[21:13:53] <tom3p> it looks like a bad vfat partition was cause of UDR's after ubuntu e2fsck'd one partition, and Vista checked the vfat, it's no more UDR's http://pastebin.ca/1747373 (fsck.vfat did find diffs between 2 fats's but i let native OS fix 'em)
[21:15:00] <tom3p> jt-plasma: 'nulling' a drive is a basic step, but when it's in the real loop, there can be a base noise (offset) that needs further tuning out ( the 1st offset adjust aint enuf)
[21:15:31] <jimbo> I am using MESA boards. I am assuming that I would hook up the added encoder to the index input on the board?
[21:16:00] <cradek> jimbo: can you describe the problem you are having more completely?
[21:17:35] <jimbo> When tuning the PID on the X axis I am unable to get the f.error low enough at the start of the move. It spikes.
[21:17:56] <danimal_garage> acceleration too high?
[21:18:13] <cradek> jimbo: can we see a plot?
[21:18:22] <jimbo> Acceleration is at 1.9
[21:18:42] <danimal_garage> wowsers, slow
[21:21:03] <jimbo> How do I get you a plot from HAl Scope?
[21:22:25] <cradek> screen grab and put it on imagebin.ca or elsewhere
[21:23:38] <danimal_garage> cradek: increasing ff1 fixed it
[21:24:05] <cradek> yep that'll have a huge effect on your error during cruise
[21:24:17] <cradek> you really want to plot it and get it balanced at zero
[21:25:25] <danimal_garage> what pin am i supposed to be scoping
[21:25:53] <cradek> probably axis.N.velocity-cmd and axis.N.ferror
[21:26:32] <danimal_garage> ok thanks i'll check it out
[21:29:54] <danimal_garage> ok i got it
[21:30:21] <danimal_garage> the most it's showing is about .006", i'll try to get it lower
[21:33:41] <danimal_garage> got it down to a few tenths
[21:38:13] <danimal_garage> what do you think yours is?
[21:41:15] <Chupa> an output set as estop out should work as an estop light signal without any aditional configing right?
[21:41:57] <danimal_garage> got it down to .0002" max, i think i'm happy with that
[21:43:44] <tom3p> Chupa: what you want to do is possible, but the signal names are very specific. the signals must be 'net'-ed to a hardware output connected to the light ( or to a driver that controls the light )
[21:44:41] <tom3p> hey, this box has no more 'unexpected realtime delays' JUST by fsck'ing the thumbdrive (happy happy happy ) cheap cheap cheap wont buy a new computer :)
[21:45:32] <danimal_garage> thanks for the help (once again) cradek. It's running beautiful. Now i just gotta get my homing working
[21:45:33] <Chupa> hummm ok
[21:45:51] <tom3p> i mounted & unmounted lots, read, wrote, played mp3's off it, also on & off from a udf formatted cdrw ( this is just like its >supposed< to be )
[21:46:00] <jt-plasma> danimal_garage: you get both axis working?
[21:46:03] <danimal_garage> yes
[21:46:07] <jt-plasma> cool
[21:46:17] <danimal_garage> yea i'm happy as hell :)
[21:46:53] <danimal_garage> just tuned them, and i'm getting no more than .0002" ferror which i'm good with
[21:47:02] <tom3p> Chupa: i mean the signal is 'estop-out'
[21:47:39] <tom3p> danimal_garage: at what velocity and acceleration? (.0002 is great)
[21:48:06] <danimal_garage> 3.333334 velocity (200ipm) and 20 accel
[21:50:34] <jt-plasma> you will be making chips soon :)
[21:50:56] <danimal_garage> yep!
[21:51:33] <danimal_garage> still gotta get the turret working
[21:51:44] <danimal_garage> and the hi/low gear clutches
[21:52:12] <jimbo_> Cradek, here is the image: http://imagebin.ca/view/qvFIiAE6.html
[21:52:43] <danimal_garage> vfd should be working, although i gotta figure out the rpm's
[21:54:47] <danimal_garage> i think i'm just gunna have a toggle switch for the air collet chuck for now
[21:55:13] <danimal_garage> just wire it to the SSr for the selanoids
[21:57:26] <tom3p> is that 20 accel 20"/s/s? ( like 0.5m/s/s )?
[21:58:33] <danimal_garage> yes
[21:58:59] <tfmacz> LawrenceG, Hey...
[22:12:00] <danimal_garage> any good ways to make a make-shift encoder for my spindle?
[22:12:50] <danimal_garage> preferably using a rubber band, paperclip, match stick, half stick of gum, and a swiss army knife?
[22:24:36] <tom3p> borrow an optical tachometer, point it at the shaft, adjust velocity command till correct, return borrowed tool. ;)
[22:35:54] <jt-plasma> we used to get rpm's with a watch and a string on the drill rigs
[22:42:08] <andypugh> danimal_garage: I made a functional spindle encoder with a laser printer.
[22:42:31] <andypugh> I am in the middle of making a more robust one, but it worked.
[22:43:35] <andypugh> I printed some stripes onto sticky label paper (at a number of scales, to get an exact wrap around the spindle) and pointed some reflective opto-couplers at it.
[22:44:09] <andypugh> Total cost £5 (for the optos)
[22:44:44] <andypugh> It worked well enough for some threading, after cradek changed the code to cope with bad encoders.
[22:47:47] <dmess> hi all
[22:48:58] <andypugh> Hi
[22:58:00] <ds3> 7
[23:01:47] <frallzor> happy happy, did some painting to day, base allmost painted now
[23:03:23] <Jymmm> frallzor: GREAT! Now, paint my house!
[23:03:43] <frallzor> screw you! =D
[23:04:00] <Jymmm> frallzor: Here's the brush.... get busy!
[23:04:16] <frallzor> here's the finger.. read it :P
[23:04:45] <Jymmm> frallzor: Start with that wall over there, the scaffolding is in the back yard
[23:05:02] <Danimal> very cool andypugh, thanks
[23:05:22] <Jymmm> frallzor: Oh, and ..|..
[23:05:42] <frallzor> ..|.
[23:06:03] <frallzor> oh well, bedtime!
[23:06:06] <Jymmm> frallzor: Now get your ass to work biotch!
[23:07:56] <alex_joni> Jymmm: he doesn't know what that is
[23:08:31] <Jymmm> alex_joni: what, work?
[23:08:36] <alex_joni> yeah
[23:08:39] <Jymmm> lol
[23:10:31] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[23:11:11] <Danimal> i gotta order an encoder for my mill's spindle, i was thinking of getting those ones that keiling sells in their servo kit for like $60
[23:11:28] <Danimal> maybe get one for the lathe spindle too
[23:13:19] <jt-plasma> your lathe does not have an encoder on the spindle?
[23:14:34] <Danimal> resolver
[23:15:10] <Danimal> and from what i understand, it doesnt work with the pico resolver converters like the x and z axis do
[23:16:07] <jt-plasma> you can't get a velocity from the pico resolver converter?
[23:17:05] <Danimal> the spindle resolver supposively doesnt work with the pico board
[23:17:20] <jt-plasma> I see
[23:17:25] <Danimal> cradek would know more about it
[23:17:37] <jt-plasma> yes
[23:19:22] <jt-plasma> I got lucky somehow and got one with encoders
[23:19:51] <Goslowjimbo> Got a new CPU, but wondering where the parallel port is. http://pastebin.com/m3d69a278
[23:20:28] <Danimal> well yours is a few decades newe lol
[23:20:32] <Danimal> newer*
[23:21:15] <Danimal> mine is 3 years older than i am
[23:21:54] <Goslowjimbo> New to me. It's the first fanless I've ever had.
[23:22:47] <cradek> Danimal: yes it would work - it's the same resolver - but an encoder's cheaper and it'll fit in there
[23:23:05] <Danimal> ah ok
[23:23:23] <cradek> so it's nice that you also have a spare resolver
[23:24:31] <Danimal> yea, spare parts are always good
[23:30:07] <lilalinux> lilalinux is now known as lilalinux_away